Fro99er/Alisae's Large Normal

[Fro99er]

If you bring it to Nexus and he okays it I'll go with it but I really, really, really don't think this belongs in the normal queue.

I asked nexus about this several weeks ago and said it seemed right (what mastina's saying)

[Fro99er]

In fact it's not technically normal.

cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team

This should take precedence. Most players' idea of what normal is would have this take precedence.

that's not a recruitment though

when the traitor-enabler dies, the traitors are then goons, so it's not a recruitment of a traitor, but the traitor losing it's abilities

[Fro99er]

how so?

[Fro99er]

Anyway, here's also what mastina said when I asked about this a month or so ago

However, if the Mafia Traitor is just a Mafia Traitor, and your intention is in fact that upon the death of the traitor enabler for the traitor to stop being a traitor, then I believe the traitor would join the mafia team and become a goon. I mean. Alignment changes aren't allowed in Normals, so it's not like the traitor can become a vanilla townie upon the death of the traitor-enabler. Yet the traitor's abilities are:
-Not being able to kill (natural immunity to gunsmith)
-Not being able to communicate
-Being endgamed if the last scum alive thanks to not being able to kill
-Knowing who the scumteam are.

These are the things which I think of as being enabled by a traitor-enabler.
So upon the death of the traitor-enabler, all but the last would go away I'd think...leaving a traitor who is, in fact, now a Vanilla Mafiate...aka, a Goon.

tl;dr: Ambiguous, but if it's what the mod wants, the answer

should

be yes.

[Fro99er]

Oh I never disagreed with your assessment it's scumsided.

[Fro99er]

alright, we'll abandon the game

[Fro99er]

nah we'll just scrap it

[Fro99er]

Hi Nexus!

Apologies if I should be asking someone else this. I'm thinking of running another large normal after the current one I'm running finishes, but before we ever put it in review, I don't want to do that if the way this works isn't what I'm thinking of.

Let's say we have:

Mafia Goon
Mafia Traitor-Enabler

(these two in the Mafia factional PT)

and also a

Mafia Traitor

who -- as normal rules dictate -- knows who the other two mafia are, but the mafia doesn't know who he/she is.

All three of these are perfectly normal roles. But my question is this:

If the Mafia Traitor-Enabler dies, then the Traitor no longer has traitor abilities, which means he's then known to the goon and joins the main Mafia PT?

Is that correct?

Er. I think so?

[Fro99er]

but you know...I made it up

[Fro99er]

wait so what is the problem

you want a traitor enabler which would make a traitor a 'mafia x' if it dies?

no.

not at all what I said

a doctor-enabler when he dies, the doctors no longer have doctor abilities

why wouldn't a traitor-enabler when he dies, mean the traitor no longer has traitor abilities?

[Fro99er]

no, a traitor has an ability to NOT be recruitable

then he loses that ability

[Fro99er]

Again, mastina's interpretation, with abilities bolded.

However, if the Mafia Traitor is just a Mafia Traitor, and your intention is in fact that upon the death of the traitor enabler for the traitor to stop being a traitor, then I believe the traitor would join the mafia team and become a goon. I mean. Alignment changes aren't allowed in Normals, so it's not like the traitor can become a vanilla townie upon the death of the traitor-enabler.

Yet the traitor's abilities are:
-Not being able to kill (natural immunity to gunsmith)
-Not being able to communicate
-Being endgamed if the last scum alive thanks to not being able to kill
-Knowing who the scumteam are.

These are the things which I think of as being enabled by a traitor-enabler.
So upon the death of the traitor-enabler, all but the last would go away I'd think...leaving a traitor who is, in fact, now a Vanilla Mafiate...aka, a Goon.

[/quote]

[Fro99er]

we'll scrap the game but I expect this to be addressed by normal guidelines in the near future, because it's explicity normal yet people are arguing it's not.

[Fro99er]

^I agree

[Fro99er]

I'm not trying to "push the boundaries"

I'm trying to create a setup that's within the guidelines. I didn't set out to think "this will push boundaries". I set out to create what I thought was a cool setup that needed some help with balance.

[Fro99er]

I don't know what to suggest. I can only apologise for misleading you with my response - I responded via my phone and obviously didn't think i through.

I was going to invite you to the NRG anyway, so if you want to join, you can join and bring this into it as your first order of business.

I'd be happy to join the NRG, because I basically live in the normal forum.

[Fro99er]

I'll think of a new setup since this mechanic seems to be a no-go for now. Give me a day or two (Alisae's on vacation, and I did most of this setup anyway, so I'm sure Ali won't mind)

[Fro99er]

Whatever. We'll talk about this later

Today hasn't been good

[Fro99er]

NEW PROPOSED SETUP

Mafia Bulletproof Traitor
Mafia Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Bulletproof Ninja (SK)

Town Bulletproof-Enabler
Bulletproof Townie
Town Tracker
Town Neapolitan
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
6 VTs


Let's use this as a starting point. Thoughts: Mafia cop gets a NOT town on the Traitor and the SK. Could change the Neapolitan to Vanilla cop if town is too OP (but I think not)

[Fro99er]

(I'll make role PMs later...today was busy)

[Fro99er]

sure, that would be a big help. Tuesdays are my busiest weekday.

[Fro99er]

I rushed to put that together, but some things to think about

Endgame rules (esp involving traitor)
Scum kill and use ability (I say no, if it comes down to just scum cop we're pretty far in the game anyway)
Should I nerf the scum cop to X-shot?
Should I nerf the tracker to X-shot?
Should I give mafia day talk to discuss the traitor role?

Anyway, that's what I get for rushing this setup through, but I didn't want to leave this stale for a while

[Fro99er]

Just a cop. It gets town or not town.

[Fro99er]

Yeah I think gating the cop to like 2-shot makes sense on the scum side, and maybe either the tracker or Neapolitan on the town side if necessary.

Pedit: why is the BP ninja silly? I've used it before in a normal.

[Fro99er]

it's pretty strong, but there's a bulletproof enabler so when that dies the SK is no longer bulletproof, plus scum can kinda guilty the SK

[Fro99er]

Holy shit I just realized I have 6 VTs and I meant to have 7 -- town only adds up to 12 players, not 13 (I can even see an argument for 14 in this setup)

[Fro99er]

NEW PROPOSED SETUP

Mafia Bulletproof Traitor
Mafia 2-shot Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Bulletproof SK

Town Bulletproof-Enabler
Bulletproof Townie
Town Rolecop
Town Gunsmith
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
7 VTs


Let's do this instead...I like this better...removes the ninja from the SK, and the rolecop doesn't actually guilty anyone except the traitor (SK and the Bulleptroof townie would both just show up as "Bulletproof" so a rolecop is not a direct guilty on SK). Also, the gunsmith gets a false guilty on the rolecop and a false inno on the traitor.

[Fro99er]

(If we need to add 1 more town player for balance for 14:4:1 instead of 13:4:1, I have some ideas on that too. An Innocent Child that reveals when it wants would be interesting, and would give a clear to the rolecop in contrast to a scum guilty with the traitor).

[Fro99er]

fuck it...just remove the SK and this works at 13:4

I might have to nerf the rolecop or gunsmith in that case, but let's just roll with that (sorry, this is me working through a setup on the fly).

FINAL PROPOSED SETUP

Mafia Bulletproof Traitor
Mafia 2-shot Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Bulletproof-Enabler
Bulletproof Townie
Town Rolecop
Town Gunsmith
Town Roleblocker
Town Doctor
7 VTs

[Fro99er]

yeah I think I have to nerf the gunsmith or this can become a bit follow the cop-ish

macho gunsmith probably works.

[Fro99er]

why?

[Fro99er]

Thanks anti <3

[Fro99er]

Personally I want to get rid of the doctor

OK I can kinda see why...

what if we changed it to a bodyguard? then we don't need to make the gunsmith macho

[Fro99er]

Yeah I think I'd like to avoid going the strongman route since I want to stick with the traitor route, which has vulnerability to the rolecop already.

The bodyguard route works, or the macho...either way. If Alisae prefers not having a doctor I don't mind going the bodyguard route.

[Fro99er]

why not?

[Fro99er]

No i'm not. It's our game. I want your input too

[Fro99er]

Why is the traitor bulletproof if there is not SK?

so scum don't accidentally kill the traitor off the start. it works with the bulletproof enabler too

[Fro99er]

Also if you want to keep the traitor bulletproof give town a vigi?

Like, if you want to do that, you could make it in the form of a JOAT if you wanted to change things up a bit.
1-shot daykill
1-shot desperado
1-shot night vigi

The JOAT would be able to use only one of it's abilities every day/night cycle.
But I don't think that's normal?

you know I despite JOATs

[Fro99er]

*despise

[Fro99er]

it does but I don't really want to make it as swingy with a vig.

I can get behind the BP-bodyguard. We'd have to change the town bulletproof to something else.

[Fro99er]

also that doesn't solve the follow the gunsmith issue if we go with a bp-bodyguard. Then scum need ot take out the bp-enabler before taking out the Bodyguard.

so we'd still have to make the gunsmith macho

[Fro99er]

but swing is exciting! Just think of railgun

Bad joke is bad

Turn the BP townie into an Ascetic enabler?
You can make one of the goons a conditional ascetic (ascetic deactivates upon preforming the kill) and make one of the investigatives ascetic.

conditional asceitc is pretty far outside normal rules

Don't think two enablers is needed as well

I think

Mafia BP Traitor
Mafia 2-shot Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Macho Gunsmith
Town BP-Bodyguard
Town BP Enabler
Town Roleblocker
Town Rolecop
Town something
7 VTs

is probably pretty balanced...just need to figure out the something

[Fro99er]

Pedit: BUT FROG!
It works well with the setup and solves the follow the gunsmith problem

Let me check the conditional thing real quick tho actually.

Sure but it's pretty contrived and has two different enablers and a non-normal role (conditional is not normal). I'm just not a fan.

[Fro99er]

Give scum a jailkeeper?
The 2-shot cop tbh isn't really much power for scum.

Scum don't need a ton of power, they are the informed minority.

13:4 is a bit scumsided normally, but making one of them a traitor (albeit that can't be killed early on) and giving them only a 2-shot cop helps limit making it too scumsided.

We don't have to power town up with a shit ton of PRs either if we can limit scum's power

[Fro99er]

I have an idea

Mafia BP Traitor
Mafia 2-shot Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Gunsmith
Town Jailkeeper
Town BP Enabler
Bulletproof townie
Town Rolecop
Town something
7 VTs


jailkeeper combines the doc/roleblock, but also prevents follow the gunsmith (because gunsmith wont use ability if jailed).

[Fro99er]

The rolecop being a full rolecop worries me a tiny bit if they hit the traitor then the cop. that would be like 2 guilties, plus the gunsmith can get a guilty or two. Could might nerf one of them and then adda mediocre town power to the "town something"

[Fro99er]

yah Macho IC works! was just thinking IC lol

[Fro99er]

Mafia BP Traitor
Mafia 2-shot Cop
Mafia Goon
Mafia Goon

Town Gunsmith
Town Jailkeeper
Town BP Enabler
Bulletproof townie
Town Rolecop
Town Macho IC
7 VT


then we just need to decide if we need to tone down rolecop/gunsmith and I think we're in good shape

pedit: god damn I wish I heart gladiators

[Fro99er]

ok this is the final setup submitted to reviewers for review

[Fro99er]

Actually before we finish the role PMs I have a question

The jailkepeer can still jail the Macho IC, right? From what it looks like, Macho only doesn't allow protection from doctors and bodyguards: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Macho

if that's the case, maybe we change bulletproof townie to bulletproof bodyguard so that it can't protect the Macho IC, and Jailkeeper to roleblocker (and limit the roleblocker shots if necessary)

[Fro99er]

ok cool...wasn't sure what normal rules stipulated there w.r.t. macho and jailkeeper since it wasn't explicitly laid out. We'll keep it and get to work on the PMs

Does the ruleset look ok?

[Fro99er]

sweet, the wiki proabably needs updating w.r.t. the normal game part of macho.

[Fro99er]

anyway, i'm gonna work on the pm's tonight

[Fro99er]

PMs:

You are a Citizen You aren't special. You only have your voice and your vote.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Jailkeeper During the night, you may target one other person that is not yourself. If successful, they will be protected from all kills, but will also be roleblocked.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Bulletproof-Enabler You enable bulletproof roles to exist in this game. If you die, all bulletproof roles (if any exist) lose their bulletproof vest.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Gunsmith During the night, you may target one person. If successful, you will learn if they have a gun.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Rolecop During the night, you may target one person. You will learn their role. This may only be used twice per game.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Bulletproof Citizen You have a bulletproof vest that will protect you from kills.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Macho Innocent Child You cannot be protected. However, at any point during the game (day or night), you may PM the moderator to have your role revealed. When the moderator receives your PM requesting your role reveal, your whole role and role PM will immediately be revealed in the game thread.

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

--

You are a Bulletproof Traitor You know X, Y, Z to be mafia aligned, but your mafia identity is unknown to X, Y, Z . You also have a bulletproof vest that will protect you from kills. As a traitor: If you are the last surviving member of your team, you will be automatically endgamed. You may not submit any factional kills. You return "Not Town" to Cops, "No gun" to Gunsmiths, and "Traitor" to Rolecops. You do not have access to the main Mafia PT.

You win when your faction controls 50% of the votes. | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a 2-shot Cop You are aligned with X, Y who are Role X, Role Y . You may talk in your factional PT here at night. During the night, you may target one person. You will learn whether they are town aligned or not. This may only be used twice per game. You also know there is one Traitor in the game who you are aligned with.

You win when your faction controls 50% of the votes. | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

You are a Goon You are aligned with X, Y who are Role X, Role Y You may talk in your factional PT here at night. You also know there is one Traitor in the game who you are aligned with.

You win when your faction controls 50% of the votes. | Gamethread | Please send your Role Name as confirmation! And lastly, have fun!

[/quote][/quote]

[Fro99er]

Just realized daytalk is in the rules, but we didn't specify daytalk in this new setup. I tihnk we should still give the scumteam daytalk given there's a traitor

[Fro99er]

so are we good to go here?

[Fro99er]

Ah yep, it's full. Just forgot to take off the two shot from the prior setup

[Fro99er]

<3

[Fro99er]

Two factions

scum have daytalk

[Fro99er]

Well, daytalk is in the rulest, but yeah