Mini Normal 1917: :X Mafia (Game over!)

[Grendel]

Ugh, that makes me feel like I should go back and reread that game for this one but its so longggg

I do think I came away with the gist of your play, but player specific interactions aren't coming to me off hand.

You pushed atrus off and on through out the game but never committed right?

[Grendel]

Ugh, that makes me feel like I should go back and reread that game for this one but its so longggg

I do think I came away with the gist of your play, but player specific interactions aren't coming to me off hand.

You pushed atrus off and on through out the game but never committed right?

@Gigabyte

[Grendel]

I don't think Sling was widely as scum read as Arutus tho. Just several players fed up with Slings play style and a couple legit srs VS over half the roster suspecting Art but pussyfooting away from voting due to D1 meta.

Optimal play for you may have been buddying/ignoring in Slings case I think.

[gigabyteTroubadour]

basically i vanity tunneled him and gave weak cases on him until town consensus happened because i thought he was a pr

[gigabyteTroubadour]

no one suspected atrus and my case was called bs several times

[Grendel]

wait really?

I should revist that game before we continue talking about this lol

[gigabyteTroubadour]

house was the only person who took it seriously >_>

[Grendel]

Apologies for not addressing you directly in these Giga, I was typing it up while you weren't around.

oh look, I'm everyone's top scumread now, besides maybe Hiraki and Cheet. Like that should be a huge neon sign that I'm a mislynch.

i dont think a scumteam with you tries to save you ever lmfao

anyway cheetory and hiraki are next, wanted to address my scumread first

still townreading the wagon comp here

that kill and nero's self hammer strongly implies that the wagon was all town sans nero imo

unless that was a vig kill lol

the first thing i want to look at today is the day 1 wagons now that we have a scumflip

Saying things like, “Scum team is never saving you”, while coming into today with the thought that Nero’s wagon had no scum on it does not add up. The first thought is a clear implication that scum _would_ in fact bus Nero, yet Giga keeps finding reasons that Nero wouldn't be bussed in this game. It registers as an excuse to lynch people off the wagon.

Which, is classic trade mark of bussing scum maximizing on newly nested opportunities. In a SWOT analisis, scum are always classify post filp associative as prime pickings. That is also where their reads begin, premature to a flip, tying their buddy to town long before a flip happens.

grendel can you tell me why you're not voting nero

Example A would be me.

Also I think the rhetoric around the all clean wagon on Nero could be easily changed depending whether or not I/Hiraki/Back/Vedith were on it. Overall looking planned vs developed when town usually doesn't play that strategically. Planned being a strategic mindset, while development falls between tactics and strategy.

[Grendel]

@Gigabyte

I think I should clarify that at this point you aren't a strong scum read, and I'm not interested in lynching you currently. I am however, taking precautions because I don't want scum!you slipping by unnoticed into the endgame. Like I can’t trust town to not wonder why power town Giga keeps not dying lol

I am, of course, predicting a game where we don't end up in the end game together. I think its pretty likely I'm getting lynched at some point.

[Grendel]

RAINBOW READS!!

kraska77

MuttonChopMagic

Cheetory6

CCC

gigabyteTroubadour

NotTheRealPaul

Grendel

Backhand

Hiraki

Okay guys...Here it is!
And before scum say that Implosion told me who scum are, no... I worked it out by myself.

Also, I'm a PR. A backup \o/

So, you can all start chanting my name now. I solved the game.

VOTE: Hiraki

I don't think I have much to say here beyond that if you believe BackhandXHiraki are the remaining scum I should be much more green.

[Grendel]

triple C, as annoyingly bad as N_M is we aren't lynching a claimed PR.

Oh.

P-Edit: I was feeling Hiraki/Vedith as partners yesterday pretty hard, but Nero being scum makes me feel less sure about Hiraki being scum?

I'll look into their interactions later, but what were your reasons NeroxHiraki don't work?

[Grendel]

@Giga

Here are a few other things I meant to ask/say yesterday, but didn't get a chance to.

Spoiler:

i read through that and i'm happy i pushed nero over you

now - you said earlier you were waffling wrt nero? what aspects of his play are town, or were you just concered about him flipping scum and making you look worse (i'd rather see nero flip scum and then you ml'd than nero avoided outright.... or your flip lowering my towncred to get nero lynched)?

I missed the second part. Yes, I was concerned that Nero’s flipping scum would make me look worse.

I think I mentioned it before, but its not uncommon for town me to poke null/weaker reads for info and interactions. If 1)that player turns out to be mafia, and 2) they keep their responses low-key, or delayed then I end up getting grilled for assossiative tells. Its quite frustrating actually, and I think made my overall reaction D2 much stronger once I realized it happened agian.

I generally think I have less issue with that as scum.

tbh I'm having trouble forming reads this game because I've gotten into a bad habit of accidentally scumreading most power roles as town but I think I understand how it happens and I'm being overly careful to not let myself fall into that this game and it's making me weird and cagey because avoiding it requires me to be more careful and I haven't really felt able to do so since I fell behind once in this game and that's been locking me into only being able to talk about the subset of players I feel like I've put enough effort into separating properly in that way

and now i'm just playing like shit in a different way than usual so that's useful

That souns like the opposite of my problem, where I scum read town power forcing them to cliam.

If you weren't being careful where would you reads be?

also grendel i really hope you're not town here :////////////

ftr I’ve never seen “blatant” role fishing come from scum. I’ve only seen it from town that didn’t think things through before posting. It’s a legit awful reason to scum read somebody, and comes super close to, “If they’re not scum their terribad town”.

Do me a flavor, Can you think of any games where scum blatantly role fished?

Grendel's reads' progression is non existent. It really reads like he's starting from conclusions and making his way back

that and i dont think town scumreading a slot (backhand) as strongly as he did just has that read drop off the face of the earth

and his read on me/push is shit too lmfao

((also i thought u were asking whats hiraki's deal lmao))

I didn't understand how you could think my push was in its entirety bad when Death row Kitty was giving me nothing to work with interaction wise. I didn't look back at the slot until D2 becuase their slot was super null express.

I was still scum reading Back hand. I cloudn’t think of how to articulate why due to one of the biggests reasons I thought he could be scum being a ethically grey thing that could be inappropriate to pick at. I wanted to make a case that was sans that, but never got around to it.

Spoiled since some of it is dated.

[Grendel]

@Giga

Here are a few other things I meant to ask/say yesterday, but didn't get a chance to.

Spoiler:

i read through that and i'm happy i pushed nero over you

now - you said earlier you were waffling wrt nero? what aspects of his play are town, or were you just concered about him flipping scum and making you look worse (i'd rather see nero flip scum and then you ml'd than nero avoided outright.... or your flip lowering my towncred to get nero lynched)?

I missed the second part. Yes, I was concerned that Nero’s flipping scum would make me look worse.

I think I mentioned it before, but its not uncommon for town me to poke null/weaker reads for info and interactions. If 1)that player turns out to be mafia, and 2) they keep their responses low-key, or delayed then I end up getting grilled for assossiative tells. Its quite frustrating actually, and I think made my overall reaction D2 much stronger once I realized it happened agian.

I generally think I have less issue with that as scum.

tbh I'm having trouble forming reads this game because I've gotten into a bad habit of accidentally scumreading most power roles as town but I think I understand how it happens and I'm being overly careful to not let myself fall into that this game and it's making me weird and cagey because avoiding it requires me to be more careful and I haven't really felt able to do so since I fell behind once in this game and that's been locking me into only being able to talk about the subset of players I feel like I've put enough effort into separating properly in that way

and now i'm just playing like shit in a different way than usual so that's useful

That souns like the opposite of my problem, where I scum read town power forcing them to cliam.

If you weren't being careful where would you reads be?

also grendel i really hope you're not town here :////////////

ftr I’ve never seen “blatant” role fishing come from scum. I’ve only seen it from town that didn’t think things through before posting. It’s a legit awful reason to scum read somebody, and comes super close to, “If they’re not scum their terribad town”.

Do me a flavor, Can you think of any games where scum blatantly role fished?

Grendel's reads' progression is non existent. It really reads like he's starting from conclusions and making his way back

that and i dont think town scumreading a slot (backhand) as strongly as he did just has that read drop off the face of the earth

and his read on me/push is shit too lmfao

((also i thought u were asking whats hiraki's deal lmao))

I didn't understand how you could think my push was in its entirety bad when Death row Kitty was giving me nothing to work with interaction wise. I didn't look back at the slot until D2 becuase their slot was super null express.

I was still scum reading Back hand. I cloudn’t think of how to articulate why due to one of the biggests reasons I thought he could be scum being a ethically grey thing that could be inappropriate to pick at. I wanted to make a case that was sans that, but never got around to it.

Spoiled since some of it is dated.

[Grendel]

^^^

Mod delete the double post plz

[Grendel]

@Mutton & Kraska

How positive are you that Backhand is town?

[Grendel]

also, scum didn't block me last night
either they blocked Paul and tried to shoot me or they don't have a blocker here
but... this setup seems really townsided so idk
at least us 3 are basically vanilla ics today

Slingshotwaffles

died

last night. There's a number of ways that could have happened if they tried to shoot you, I guess... but none of them seem particularly likely.

afaik all roles capable of misdirecting night actions onto other players are blacklisted in normal.

Nexus/BusDriver/Redirector etc

[Grendel]

RAINBOW READS!!

kraska77

MuttonChopMagic

Cheetory6

CCC

gigabyteTroubadour

NotTheRealPaul

Grendel

Backhand

Hiraki

Okay. Backhand/Hiraki does make some sense as a scumteam. (I'd still like an explanation of how you figured it out, Vedith, so that I can test the strength of your reasoning).

The thing is, though, that Vedith/Grendel

also

makes sense as a scumteam. (So does Vedith/Hiraki, for that matter).

So. Two options.

One, Vedith is Town. He really has solved the game; the solution is above.

Two, Vedith is scum. He is lying through his teeth.

Personally, I think that the second is more likely. And on the off-chance that he

does

flip Town - well, then we'd have a completely solved game and just need to go through the lynches.

VOTE: Vedith

Can you elaborate more on the team compositions and why you think they exist?

It isn't all based off VCA is it?

[Vedith]

I don't think I have much to say here beyond that if you believe BackhandXHiraki are the remaining scum I should be much more green.

You can't have a rainbow read with just green and red, you fucking nugget!

I'm at a PC now, Got a few minor things to do at work but I'm on the case!

[Vedith]

VOTE: Backhand

Backhand (3): Grendel, MuttonChopMagic, Accountant

Standard bussing

Backhand (4): Grendel, Accountant, MuttonChopMagic, notsure

vote:PP

First course of action, take the opportunity to jump off Backahnd as he's the leading wagon.

Hiraki still not voting, we'll get on him shortly.

Not_Mafia (6): Not_Mafia, Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower

1 scum on my wagon, other 2 are trying to avoid.

Not_Mafia (5): Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (4): CCC, MuttonChopMagic, SlingshotWaffles, Nero Cain
Cheetory6 (1): Not_Mafia
CCC (1): Hiraki
PenguinPower (1): Grendel

All 3 scum voting in different places. Nero pushing another lynch instead of mine only has an explanation of scum already on the wagon.

kraska77 (4): CCC, SlingshotWaffles, Nero Cain, Not_Mafia
CCC (4): Hiraki, Cheetory6, kraska77, PenguinPower
Not_Mafia (3): Backhand, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul
PenguinPower

Still all voting separately, never at a stage where they need to push together.

VOTE: Nero Cain

Yeah, but he's been worse since then. I really don't think kraska is scum, this feels exactly right to me.

kraska77 (5): CCC, SlingshotWaffles, Nero Cain, MuttonChopMagic, PenguinPower
Nero Cain (4): kraska77, Not_Mafia, Cheetory6, Backhand
CCC (2): Hiraki, NotTheRealPaul
Backhand (1): Grendel

Kraska was still the leading wagon, all 3 scum voting separately and Backhand already stated that he thinks Karska is a good lynch.

VOTE: PenguinPower

kraska77 (6): CCC, SlingshotWaffles, MuttonChopMagic, PenguinPower, Hiraki, NotTheRealPaul
PenguinPower (4): Cheetory6, Backhand, Nero Cain, DeathRowKitty

No hammer from scum because both wagons are town. They don't want the attention, and they aren't at risk of hammering.
Plus, scum probably want as little on the lynched wagon as possible, probably thought Kraska was a sure bet. Explains why Hiraki can't vote away onto PP, otherwise all scum on the wagon.

Nero Cain (3): kraska77, Cheetory6, Not_Mafia
SlingshotWaffles (3): CCC, MuttonChopMagic, Hiraki
Not_Mafia (1): Backhand

Nero on pressure, both scum buddies voting away, again voting in different places.

Nero Cain (4): kraska77, Not_Mafia, SlingshotWaffles, MuttonChopMagic
DeathRowKitty (2): Cheetory6, Grendel
SlingshotWaffles (1): Hiraki
Not_Mafia (1): Backhand

No progression, both other wagons dropped/never progressed but yet staying where they are.

Nero Cain (3): kraska77, SlingshotWaffles, MuttonChopMagic
Vedith (2): Backhand, CCC
SlingshotWaffles (2): Hiraki, Nero Cain
DeathRowKitty (2): Cheetory6, Grendel

This is one of the first time they do a panic wagon and 2 scum are voting together because Nero is top wagon still.

Nero Cain (6): kraska77, SlingshotWaffles, MuttonChopMagic, gigabyteTroubadour, NotTheRealPaul, CCC
SlingshotWaffles (2): Hiraki, Nero Cain
gigabyteTroubadour (2): Cheetory6, Grendel
Vedith (1): Backhand

Still off the Nero wagon. Nero self voted so that his buddies didn't have to and get accused for bussing.


Today - After my post, both scum avoiding my wagon, because my lynch is when they are lynched.

Next step

Backhand - Voting style and reasons

184 - Votes Mutton - Poor reasoning
360 - Votes me - I know I'm town.
1163 - Votes PP - Better than Kraska or CCC...
1246 - Votes Nero (While Kraska is still leading wagon) - Feels right
1296 - Votes PP - Naked post
1462 - Botes me - Because he wants to run me up
1926 - Votes me - Because I'm Nero's buddy. But never lynched Nero, sat his vote on me.

Next step - Backhands posts to or about Nero

167 - Telling Account to name who is VI
170 - Didn't like Accountant calling people VI, no vote.
178 - Distancing
184 - Still distancing
318 - Didn't like Accountant, no vote or pressure
345 - Worthless
476 - Accountant town read (?) Or at least liking the response
482 - Trying to fake slip
616 - I don't understand too much, NAI for me
920 - Says he will jump on a flashwagon to Nero as Nero hasn't done anything, shows a scum read there but never pushes or actually votes here. Says that Accountant pinged him, but ISO says that he got over that.
929 - Just about NM/Me
1005 - Wasteful comment, just asking to look like posting
1017 - Returns a fake conversation between Nero and Backhand
1028 - Response to a fake question. Fake answer
1149 - Again, says okay to hop on the Nero wagon, and showing a lot of interest in Nero scum, yet no vote.
1246 - Finally votes, but still not leading wagon
1259 - Almost instantly happy to swap over to PP
1281 - Means little other than distancing
1286 - Distancing still
1327 - Again, talking about the Nero lynch while jumping off it to PP.
1362 - Wants PP lynched as it can help with Karska/Nero sorting (keeping in mind Karska is put first, that's a genuine scum tell of distancing with Nero).
1462 - Nero scum again, votes me.
1534 - Asking Nero to vote me
1590 - Has Nero now as 3rd scum from bottom. Would pick Waffles side over Nero, but empty words.
1776 - Okay with a Nero lynch, but isn't voting there
1780 - Thinks that Waffles and Nero are both scum trying to lynch away from me, doesn't vote Nero.
1844 - Is pushing for me/Waffles as scum, and not Nero.
1900 - Happy to hammer Nero, now he's fucked anyway.
1926 - Says he thought it was me and Nero, or me and Waffles. He was actually pushing for me and Waffles and not Nero.


Next step - Backhand posts to or about Hiraki

184 - Distancing
318 - Distancing, no vote or pressure.
418 - Weak defence on Hiraki
1590 - Has Hiraki as null / avoiding interaction so far in the game with this slot
1654 - Pointless
1926 - Says that Hiraki is less likely scum for buddying Nero

So that's 1 scum.

Next step - Hiraki voting style and reasons

575 - CCC - Due to recent postings, not much of a reason
1332 - Karska - Shit reasoning
1498 - Waffles - Better wagon, no actual reason

Next step - Hiraki posts about or with Nero

306 - Has Accountant as town, other than that, it's worthless.
329 - Still has Accountant as town
575 - Fake, would have been told in PT
660 - Doesn't scum read Nero (Although I thought this was a town read before?)
915 / 1332 / 1478 / 1482 / 1503 / 1506 / 1562 / 1563 / 1582 / 1599 / 1718 / 1730 / 1733 / 1865 - Defending Nero's slot
1865 / 1881 - Starting to try and distance.

Next step - Hiraki posts to or about Backhand

306 - Means little, just going to "look" at Backhand
469 - Puts Backhand as a full null... Questions Grendel on the Backhand SR.
487 / 492 - Worthless

Other than that, Hiraki spent his entire time trying to prevent the Nero lynch. Hiraki gets the loyal scum of the year award, at least.

I'll do the Nero side of things later.

But by this, you can see that both of these 2 are obvious scum.

Backhand with his obvious distancing and always having a scum read on Nero but never pushing, and Hiraki for trying to stop the lynch.

And both are currently not voting me, because you know, that means they are in danger of being lynched tomorrow.
They need to lynch else where first, and save my lynch for a closer point to LyLo.

Yay Vedith \o/

[Hiraki]

if you think that i am that poor of a player vedith, then i've learned how much you think of me - i'm not going through all of this but 575 is absolutely not fake, I can link at least 5 games where I do the same exact thing

vedith's reads assume that everyone who defended nero must be scum and that's the end all, that's a very naive way of thinking about the game

[Vedith]

And no Hiraki! Implosion did not tell me the scum team! Got it?

[Hiraki]

ok but how much do you apologize to me in the post-game for being wrong?

[Vedith]

if you think that i am that poor of a player vedith, then i've learned how much you think of me

If it helps, I like you Hiraki! \o/
I just think you should have thrown Nero under the bus for town credit. I'd eat that shit up!

[Vedith]

ok but how much do you apologize to me in the post-game for being wrong?

I'm never wrong.
We can lynch Backhand first if you like? Unless you think he's town?

[Hiraki]

your analysis wasn't wrong that i don't have a strong read either way toward him but by there's a shorter list of people who can actually be scum so he's maybe on it. I don't think /we/ dictate things anymore either - not really ever in this game tbh. i also think grendel's psuedo push on giga right now is 10 times worse than what you're saying though