Mini Normal 1920 (Game Over)
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Formerfish is at L-2!
Chickadee is at L-2!
Last edited by mastina on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:45 am, edited 5 times in total.- Mulch
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In post 1797, mastina wrote:
Mulch is correct in this instance.In post 1775, Mulch wrote:Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
Bets of essentially any kind are forbidden especially in a Normal game. Do not further this discussion.
So now you guys have to stop that stupid bet- ReplacedIn
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LUV & GI, please stop interacting with each other for a while, reading 10+ pages of you two insulting each other isn't fun or helpful.
Also Mulch, you really need to get a grip. Take a break from the game and gather your thoughts rather than constant paranoia theories like "Grey and Uzi both scum!" please.
GI, I don't disagree that both LUV and FF need rope at some point in the game, I'm hoping if the former is town he's resolved via the night kill and if the latter is town there's not a lot that can be done, he's effectively a forced mslynch at some point this game. On that front we have no disagreements. But real talk time;
I'm 100% certain you're town here. I understand your argument of "I have a guilty on FF and I'm not lynching anyone else", I think that's very reasonable and know it's very much in your nature to be like that. That said there's two other worlds that exist now that you've claimed a full Cop and not a 1-shot.
World #1 is both LUV and yourself are town; Know the existence of both of your roles being town areverysmall and pretty sure LUV is wrong in that I don't think it's a combo that's ever existed inside a Mini Normal before but as someone that's been in the NRG I can outright state that setups nowadays are significantly more town sided than what they were in the past, I think Cop/Neapolitan both having modifiers with an Ascetic and mafia having a Roleblocker/Rolecop is a genuine possibility here, I can see Mastina putting together that combination thinking it's clever and knowing who reviewed it think there'd be very little 'tweaking' of the setup before it being approved. In this world the odds that you were roleblocked isn't insignificant, at minimum 1/7, higher due to you being a town read during the day phase.
World #2 is that LUV is mafia and you're town; In this world scum having a roleblocker isn't impossible either.
In both cases it's possible you were roleblocked and he's still scum and to some extent that explain a lot of the frustration he's showing in the thread since it'd be him getting caught based on the wrong reasons entirely but I also think some of his frustration here is something he'd think was a little too far as mafia too? Like odds are he's scum here 90% of the time based on his progression of his read on you being funky, him not really doing a lot of actual game solving post-claim but I don't think it's 100% impossible that you're both town here. He's dying before the end of the game, I'm just not completely sold on it being the right move today. On the other hand we know for a fact there's minimum one scum between LUV and Chickadee. I also think the tin-foil world where LUV rolecopped Chickadee and she's a Non-VT and he's made that claim as mafia just never exists, mafia don't use the rolecop on someone that claimed VT when put at L-1. Someone that's a town PR doesn't claim VT when put at L-1 and threatened with a hammer.
So there's mafia in Chickadee & LUV, now look at how Chickadees played today so far;
Spoiler:
She came into the day and pushed and voted you, then moved towards your guilty with little actual progression shown in it. Had little to no reaction towards LUV claiming she's not a VT when if she's town she should know he's mafia 100% of the time, that or she's a PR that fake claimed VT when threatened with a hammer which just isn't a thing here. So uh, she's just always mafia no? Especially combined with her lurking out the day while being active elsewhere during it? Like if she's town she wants to attempt to either a) Diffuse this "LUV v Chicakdee" situation if she's somehow a PR or b) Push LUV as mafia if she's a VT.
Like, just looking at all this it's hard to see a world where it's Scum!LUV and Town!Chickadee, it's almost always either Scum!Chickadee and Town!LUV or Scum!Chickadee and Scum!LUV.
From a logic, risk minimisation and reads based on how they've handled the day phase it makes much more sense to lynch Chickadee here than anyone else?- ReplacedIn
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In post 793, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:Chi, you're at L-1.
Please claim so the rest of the lot can weigh in on your claim and then eventually come around to hammering your slot.
Like the above is how she claimed D1, doesn't play out in that manner if she's a PR and if she's a VT she's pushing him here. So like, she just has to be mafia, no? Like if she's town she's been guiltied as town and decides to throw a vote down on FF and lurk the day phase out? Nope. Nope. Not what town does when guiltied.In post 795, Chickadee wrote:VT, nothing exciting
Read me for me LUV. I know you're good at reading me. You'll catch me if I really am scum.- Formerfish
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Not to be a brat, but you have 2 people at l-2.
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Also, Gerry dead.
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- GreyICE
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Okay, but see it from my perspective. When I got this role I made a list of all the cute interactions that could be in the game:
Jailkeeper - Doctor who turns me paranoid for the night
Roleblocker - Scum framer
Town Ascetic - Miller
Commuter - bulletproof miller
Hider - No, for power reasons (two cops)
I assumed two, if not three of them exist. But look at how Neapolitan interacts with these.
Roleblocker - they're... roleblocked
Jailkeeper - They're... jailkept
Ascetic - No result... (not even "not vanilla")
Commuter - No result (not even "not vanilla")
It's the least elegant thing ever. Maybe, maybe it would be okay from a power standpoint if there was nothing else relevant in the game. But from the standpoint of a compelling setup? It's so fucking random. These are two answers to the question of "how do you make a weaker cop?" They've made cops that get confirmed guilties and unconfirmed innocents (Trackers), but these?
Neapolitan - cop who gets confirmed innocents, but no confirmed guilties
Loyal cop - cop who gets confirmed innocents, but no confirmed guilties
This is just derpy to the extreme. In a really non-Mastina way, because no one looks at this hypothetical setup and goes "it looks clever" they look at it and go "what a mess". This exact mess is exactly what I'd expect every time if that's the setup, and that's horrible. So the guilty is as useful as fins on a pig.
The other thing is I have to trust these people who don't want to lynch FormerFish. Mulch in particular is willing to throw aside all logic because "he sounds town". They're going to let him live. They're going to let him live to LyLo with a cop guilty on him, then they're going to have their own personal grudges and lynch someone they dislike in LyLo. You know this is exactly the sort of town for that horror to occur.
Chickadee will die before LyLo. FormerFish is the scum that wins the damn game, and we lynch him here.ShowThat which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil
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GreyICE, I think going with a hard "Mastina wouldn't make this setup" attitude is wrong, the NRG and Mastina personally consider balance and design very differently then what I and yourself think should be the case. I've stopped joining reviews due to this, I won't go into it any more than that but you'll need to trust me that this isn'timpossibleto be a designed setup. Do I think if that's the setup it's messy and silly? Yes. Do I think the review process might not have thought that when designing and passing the setup? Sadly, yes.
And I think you're overly worried about FF, he's not endgaming if he's scum. He's absolutely not. This town is bad, sure, but if you ever get night killed he'd be speed lynched directly afterwards, pretty certain of that. I don't think this should be a lynch based on "who is scarier and might beat us later" but a "who is more obviously mafia based on logic/play" and Chickadee fits that for me via today.- GreyICE
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If the review process has really degraded to the point where shit like this is acceptable then this site is dead. Any review committee that lets that sort of setup by should be summarily dismissed and replaced by random scummers. The goal of a normal is to maintain a balanced sense of gameplay with good variety from the roles without them becoming overly intrusive into gameplays. Guilties are fine. This "would they wouldn't they" of interlocking stupid roles is anything but.
That being said my opinion of the MafiaScum moderators probably couldn't be lower. Consider this my review of their performance.
Vote: ChickadeeShowThat which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil
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In post 1810, GreyICE wrote:If the review process has really degraded to the point where shit like this is acceptable then this site is dead. Any review committee that lets that sort of setup by should be summarily dismissed and replaced by random scummers. The goal of a normal is to maintain a balanced sense of gameplay with good variety from the roles without them becoming overly intrusive into gameplays. Guilties are fine. This "would they wouldn't they" of interlocking stupid roles is anything but.
That being said my opinion of the MafiaScum moderators probably couldn't be lower. Consider this my review of their performance.
Vote: Chickadee
Although perhaps there is something that makes these other roles make sense?Show-Lord Giratina-
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I mean this got passed with a Gunsmith, Vig, Odd Night Cop v 2 Goons and an Odd night roleblocker or Mastinas last setup here where town had an Ascetic+Gunsmith+Vig+2-Shot Tracker v 2 Goons and a Fruit Vendor it's a pretty clear point towards setups being much more town sided than in the past or what I'd consider level.
Very much considering hammering here. If anyone doesn't think Chickadee is mafia they need to speak up now.- EeveeLution Army
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In post 1812, ReplacedIn wrote:I mean this got passed with a Gunsmith, Vig, Odd Night Cop v 2 Goons and an Odd night roleblocker or Mastinas last setup here where town had an Ascetic+Gunsmith+Vig+2-Shot Tracker v 2 Goons and a Fruit Vendor it's a pretty clear point towards setups being much more town sided than in the past or what I'd consider level.
Very much considering hammering here. If anyone doesn't think Chickadee is mafia they need to speak up now.
Did games used to be scumsided? Or just less townsided?Show-Lord Giratina-
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Games used to have less town power and more scum power, there was a transition towards reducing the mafia power to 'balance' games which was logical and had a lot of backing behind it that Hoopla had brought up. More recently normals have had more town power than previously though and it's due to town having a lower win rate than what they should and the NRG trying to balance bad play/bad players with more town power, it's not a change I approve of at all. Anyway this is mostly irrelevant more just a "LUV and Grey could both plausibly be legit, it's not a onehasto be mafia" thing.
Considering you'er voting FF currently got any issue with me hammering Chickadee at some stage soon?- GreyICE
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Games used to be fairly well designed. Or at least there was an era where they weren't total shit. Although me being a big push for less "each town role has a matching mafia counter" has apparently morphed into "the town is lol overpowered hello town of salem"
Like Odd night cop/odd night roleblocker is a pair where if you lynch the roleblocker early the cop is damn near confirmed due to interaction. The second one is just a mess from a design perspective. 2-shot tracker? I mean tracker is a weak role in the first place, why is the weakest town role in the setup also 2-shot? And what's the fruit vendor even doing? Interacting with the tracker that only has two shots? It's complete garbage.
I am an advocate that 10:3 needs to have town sided power roles since scum will win a 10:3 vanilla probably 95%+ of the time (seriously, the stats on 10:2 are like 90% scum wins), but those setups are more than a little garbage. I'll agree with my pal, tentatively.
Fact is, good principles of a normal design: The game shall be focused on scumhunting, not role discussion. Interactions shall be simple - when someone is counterclaimed it's a 50/50, when a guilty shows up it's reasonably easy to deduce what circumstances it might fall apart or what might have happened, the scum generally rule the night but not to the level of having a full counter to every town power. The game shall not become town sided due to mass claim, nor shall claims overlap in such a way that you have to play will they/won't they with the designer. The scum will have to play well during the day to win, the town should need either decent night and day play or exceptional day play to win. A good rule of thumb is one scum outed due to power roles, two townies cleared due to power roles, with the potential for more or less based on play.ShowThat which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil
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Hmm. I only have a slight townread on chickadee from MMMs reactions. I wouldn't 100% oppose it. But i couldn't stop you if you wanted to hammer.Show-Lord Giratina-
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This is inexcusable at this point.In post 1816, EeveeLution Army wrote:Hmm. I only have a slight townread on chickadee from MMMs reactions. I wouldn't 100% oppose it. But i couldn't stop you if you wanted to hammer.
I am claiming a guilty on the slot. Do you not believe and if so why?- ReplacedIn
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Agree with LUV here, you've got to have a much stronger stance of idea based on what's played out today then that.
Was moreso addressing the "Both roles can't be in the same setup" via power strength, weird interactions are in almost every game nowadays, this mini normal had 5 JOATs, 4 town, 1 scum, this had two town BG's and a JK with mafia having a RB and a Strongman shot. Like almost anything is possible nowadays so would never really go with the "never together" type stance.In post 1815, GreyICE wrote:Games used to be fairly well designed. Or at least there was an era where they weren't total shit. Although me being a big push for less "each town role has a matching mafia counter" has apparently morphed into "the town is lol overpowered hello town of salem"- EeveeLution Army
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In post 1817, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
This is inexcusable at this point.In post 1816, EeveeLution Army wrote:Hmm. I only have a slight townread on chickadee from MMMs reactions. I wouldn't 100% oppose it. But i couldn't stop you if you wanted to hammer.
I am claiming a guilty on the slot. Do you not believe and if so why?
I don't trust your claim to be honest. But then again scum wouldn't fake claim a pr this early. Which is why i don't 100% oppose it.Show-Lord Giratina-
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Do you not trust it for the same reasons Grey says he doesn't?In post 1819, EeveeLution Army wrote:In post 1817, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
This is inexcusable at this point.In post 1816, EeveeLution Army wrote:Hmm. I only have a slight townread on chickadee from MMMs reactions. I wouldn't 100% oppose it. But i couldn't stop you if you wanted to hammer.
I am claiming a guilty on the slot. Do you not believe and if so why?
I don't trust your claim to be honest. But then again scum wouldn't fake claim a pr this early. Which is why i don't 100% oppose it.- EeveeLution Army
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I just don't think you are completely town but i don't have enough evidence to push you as scum.Show-Lord Giratina-
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You're going to be waiting a long time ELA if you're still waiting for the LMK slot to give content today. There's also nothing Frogger can say to prevent what has to happen today and he can still give his take on today tomorrow if he's still alive.- Lil Uzi Vert
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Fine but sitting on Fish now does nothing to help you figure thing out but actually hammering does since it allows the game to continue.In post 1821, EeveeLution Army wrote:I just don't think you are completely town but i don't have enough evidence to push you as scum.- EeveeLution Army
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Which is why i said i didn't oppose the guy hammeringShow-Lord Giratina-
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