BIOCHEMISTRY - game over, finally, it's only been 5 months

[mhsmith0]

Night actions reports please, with the rolecop being especially potentially important.

[mhsmith0]

Well, mhsmith0 should be jailkept for tonight if we fail to lynch scum.

Why? I mean, it seems like a near zero chance that spiffeh is scum, but I'd think that explicitly clearing him (or forcing scum to no kill again) is more optimal, since the watch shot still exists. Why is that wrong?

[mhsmith0]

So, to me, it seems like spiffeh is todays lynch. I'm not really felling an ari lynch today. It's possible scum just chose to not NK last night.

Waht happens in a no NK no lynch standoff?

A no kill / no lynch standoff would presumably be a draw. but since we aren't even in MYLO, we're certainly not doing that (I'm not 100% opposed to no lynching so that we get another rolecop shot tonight, but indefinite no kill / no lynch is obviously not something that we should contemplate in this situation).

wrt spiffeh, do you actually think he's been scummy, or is this just a "well he was jailed" thing? Because lynching our tracker inventor before MYLO strikes me as a "we better be really fucking sure" type of thing.

[mhsmith0]

I really think were dealing with someone who is ascetic, so our Rolecop is going to be most useful in finding that person (im assuming the action should fail)

???????

If spiffeh was an ascetic inventor, why didn't he kill last night?

[mhsmith0]

Like ascetic scum inventor spiffeh probably just shoots whoever got the track (or maybe creature) and is "clear" due to jailkeeper on him, and then can reasonably hope to abuse the ascetic trait to make it to Endgame.

[mhsmith0]

At this point I want to hear what everyone is thinking on that front.

[mhsmith0]

Lets go person by person. Lets start with creature.

I really feel he cant be scum for a few reasons.

FIrst and foremost: Giving scum a backup rolecop seems sooo fucking weird.
IF hes scum (and by extension muyslef as well) then that makes 3 friggin pl in the PT chat as scumn.. I KNOW KNOW this is a dumb reason, but i think it deserves some merit.



Drunk post, fuck spelling

These are both pretty crappy reasons to clear creature.

1) It's realistic that PTs were assigned randomly
2) Backup rolecop would actually go a LONG way towards overcoming any bitching about balance that scum might have. Scum getting a backup rolecop inventor along with track immune, watch immune, and strongman is basically them getting a nearly full menu of what the setup is (there's a watcher/inventor, there's a tracker/inventor, and there's some combination of roleblocker/doctor/jailkeeper/inventor, and there's a rolecop inventor that they desperately need to kill early on [and for some insane reason chose not to do so because lolwolves] )

Hopefully there's better stuff on other slots coming soon?

PS I'd say that if vax is scum he's probably vanilla since he seems to not be particularly worried about potentially getting rolecopped here.

[mhsmith0]

Spiffeh
Spiffeh is not acting like the spiffeh I know from Gay Mafia where he was town.

What differences in particular are you seeing? Do you know him only from that game or do you have a larger meta w/ him?

[mhsmith0]

All it is is a counter for the JK.

If there is a theme to everything then there is a ninja like I said earlier to make the scum "watch immune"

wut
like
did you read the flips?

I don't want to be a dick, but you're basically displaying a bizarre lack of gamestate awareness and I don't really know what to make of it.

[mhsmith0]

Specifically

TheRealGin-N-Tonic - PrPSc, Mafia Watch-Immune Goon - lynched Day 1

Ser Arthur Dayne - Hemoglobin, Vanilla Townie - killed Night 1
Vecna - Thymine Dimer, Mafia Strongman - lynched Day 2
Gorkington - Glucose, Vanilla Townie - killed Night 2
BigYoshiFan - Palmitic Acid, Vanilla Townie - lynched Day 3
Sakura Hana - Matrix metalloproteinase-1, Vanilla Townie - killed Night 3
Rick and Andrea - Amylose, Town Back-up Jailkeeper Inventor - lynched Day 4
Titus - Sphingomyelin, Vanilla Townie - killed Night 4
RadiantCowbells - miRNA21, Mafia Track-Immune Goon - lynched Day 5
mastina - Major Histocompatibility Complex, Town Rolecop Inventor - killed Night 5

[mhsmith0]

I guess if you want to help, give more detail on your reads, ask interesting questions, re-read stuff that happened earlier, etc. Although I'd say that probably applies to the game at large.

[mhsmith0]

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

Cause my posts are too cutesy or w/e you said?

I think he means your not trying.
At least that's why I would think your scum right now.

-Rick

Oh yeah I forgot you wanted me to explain my reads, might as well do it now since I have my laptop on me at lunch.

Spiffeh: I think he is town because he has basically been pressuring from our neighborhood from the pregame which is pretty town. I don't really think he is scum trying to ML me either because he pursued me a lot harder at the start of cheetory mafia when he was trying to ML me.

Gork: I liked the way he was pressuring your slot and he feels a lot more engaged then he did in Plotinus and Cheetory mafia and I don't think Gork is a player that gets more engaged by town (please correct me on this if I am wrong).

R&A: I liked your early posting and as scum I recall you just stated reads and pushed people while in this game I feel like you are asking more questions and actually trying to solve the game rather then just pushing people and making analysis.

SAD: A combination of his troll posts and game solving makes me feel like he is town.

Yoshi: mainly just gut tbh.

Vifam: Feels like he is proactively trying to solve the game and use his vote to do things so town.


My reads haven't really changed much from the last time I posted in all honesty.

On the one hand, it's a bit weird to just dump out a list of townreads on all town here, but on the other, that just flagrantly looks like "scum!beeboy trying to suck up to town!spiff to get him off his back", especially in the context of there being a bit of shade being thrown on beeboy at the time, and spiff being under basically zero pressure.

[mhsmith0]

But MoI! I want Creature AND SAD. ;~;
Can I get both?

Unless you have the ability to make it a Double Day you can't in a single Day.

And SAD is generally a much harder lynch than Creature so better to get the harder one done while we have as many Town alive as possible. Otherwise it will be easier for SAD's partners to divert his eating rope in later days.

"I scum read creature" "Let's not lynch creature"

[mhsmith0]

I guess I dont have the meta on the SAD slot that some have, but I really dont understand this wagon at all. Guess if im right ill be the designated white knight tomorrow.

Titus, engage with me some, because im actually very surprised that you have a gut townread on me, even after MOI outed that we had a discussion/fights in our PT about mechanics. Normally id suspect that you get triggered by my current playstyle, especially if told that behind closed doors im still doing the mechanics thing.

A bit weird that creature was around then, and l-2 voted SAD, and Vecna didn't care to engage.

[mhsmith0]

Ima put that into tiers later cause no one wants to read that but I need to get on the bus first so yeah.


UNVOTE:
VOTE: Creature

Not sure what to make of this vote and then park until replace out

[mhsmith0]

Vecna what right do you have to ask that when your vote is parked on quartz.
-Ali

Pretty good question to ask there

[mhsmith0]

HS, I see what you mean, but he fillers as town just as well. Ill just have to come up with some way of reading into the creature posts to determine the differences between scum/town. I really dont believe everyone voting him has the experience to make that distinction though, but w/e.

There was some thing that happened in our neighbourhood and how he acted on it that makes me think this isnt scum!creature though.

He was asking me in our neighbourhood who we should be pressuring, I told him Titus.....and poof in he comes and just votes Titus out of the blue no questions asked. Why bring that attention onto yourself like that as scum?

This was kind of a good spot to potentially make an opportunistic hop onto town!creature to distract from pressure on vecna and/or beeboy... but nope not happening there.

[mhsmith0]

HS, I see what you mean, but he fillers as town just as well. Ill just have to come up with some way of reading into the creature posts to determine the differences between scum/town. I really dont believe everyone voting him has the experience to make that distinction though, but w/e.

There was some thing that happened in our neighbourhood and how he acted on it that makes me think this isnt scum!creature though.

He was asking me in our neighbourhood who we should be pressuring, I told him Titus.....and poof in he comes and just votes Titus out of the blue no questions asked. Why bring that attention onto yourself like that as scum?

Just bolding non-striked so you can all see:

Ser Arthur Dayne

MagnaofIllusion
Gorkington
Spiffeh

Rem and Ram (Alisae and Human Sequencer)

Sakura Hana

Rick and Andrea (Firebringer and MariaR)

Vifam

kuror0

Vecna
Voices of Truth (Titus and Thinkbig)

Majiffy

BigYoshiFan
beeboy

Steven Quartz

Creature

Marquis

Objectively terrible reads here too

[mhsmith0]

Hmmmm creature does appear to be panicking quite hard, which is not something im used to from him under pressure.

Otoh here looks like the beginning of an opportunistic swing in read?

[mhsmith0]

What I think about Vecna's push on MoI
(And it's all gut btw)

-Ali

What else is new

Also Ali, im going to give you the very same message that I gave you in Code Geass, youre barking up the wrong tree.

MoI has been full on attacking me in the hood ever since the very first post where I disagreed with his plan. I put forth my reasons, but instead of answering them and discussing it he pushed for his own ideas and continued scumreading me in the process. It literally went "I dont see town posting something like this" and has confbiassed everything around this. I didnt see scum reasoning in it at first, but his last post just completely distorts events to fit his narrative and randomly dug up some other things I did as further "proof" without really trying to read what motivation town could have to do those things. His read is fake.

Notice how I havent attacked anyone else over them scumreading me, I asked them for their reasons and I was fine with them. I did design my play to get responses. You have seen me play as town like this in the past, and you full well know that is how I play as town.

This seems... super not likely to be massive theater w rr other scum? Like, him calling vecna/magna out as theater, and then vecna response, doesn't seem w/w here at all.

[mhsmith0]

Not gonna vote creature to save my own hide.

Also your post does not inspire confidence that you actually read what it going on.

Hesitance here is weird. Does scum!vecna fear spewing town!creature that much? Is he that dedicated to the magma theater? Idk really what his goal here is regardless of creature alignment though; either way it seems kinda silly.

[mhsmith0]

At this point given the PT discussion I don’t think Creature and Vecna are partners. The level of scum theatre they would be having to spin there is pretty high. Creature is basically asking Vecna to defend him from the current wagon and Vecna has not directed Creature to vote two targets (TitusHydra and Creature) “for reactions”.

The hesitance from manga also weird. Is it THAT scary to be on the same town wagon as beeboy here? It seems like an easy enough transition point that gets no interest at all. Was this just over the top dedication to a bus then?

[mhsmith0]

Containing to skim but it's late and I've more than put in an hour on this today. Hopefully one of the non confirmed players wants to do some solving work?

[mhsmith0]

Does anyone have any thoughts in partuclar about early game (especially days 1-2) given flips? I've spent some time looking through, will do some more over the weekend, but I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

[mhsmith0]

No one thing in partuclar. I've been looking at interactions w dead wolves, trying to see what makes sense as spew or what just doesn't make sense as being wolf. Like my first read of d2 was that with all the bussing and theater going on, it was pretty fucking ridiculous for scum team NOT to be willing to just bus a goon under fire instead, which made me think that as long as you were rolecopped vanilla and not some kind of obnoxious scum power, it just didn't make sense for it to be you. I need to reread for details, but that was one thing that cropped up as an example.

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith0, what if we mislynch today and scum decides to kill you?

Then either I'd be saved via jail, or we'd have really interesting night results.

If anyone's still paranoid of the existence of a roleblocker, only Vax could be.

If there's a roleblocker, then scum has played utterly atrociously given night actions. Do you think it's at all credible that there might be?

Along those lines, do you think Vax actually is a roleblocker? Do you have any particular scum reads? Out of everyone still living, my recollection is that you were the least "doing things" on day 6, despite Jiffy's push on you. Kinda curious what your headspace is right now.

[mhsmith0]

I've sent my jail to either spiffeh or ari. Night plan is for me to be jailed, and spiffeh to be watched. Tracker should be on someone non-clear; Ari is a generically intelligent track since he's vanilla (and thus any track clear on a night with a kill should be considered a hard clear), so I'd probably say just give vax the track and have him track ari.

[mhsmith0]

Ari, why is Creature scum?
Creature, why is Ari scum?

[mhsmith0]

will do this tomorrow

+1

[mhsmith0]

FWIW, an alternative appraoch is just to no lynch, rolecop vax, jail spiffeh, watch me, and see if anything interesting happens. Given taht I don't think people are especially energetic towards actually getting a lynch, I'm actually ok with this as a concept, especially since we're on evens anyway.

[mhsmith0]

While I could see Ankamius skating through the game.

His interactions with other scum still makes plenty of sense

, just us for some reason decided to discard him as town.

Which in particular are you thinking of?

[mhsmith0]

wrt #2, when in particular would you think that, either given her stated positions or the flipped scum's stated positions, it would have been natural to ank to have picked a fight w scum?

wrt #1, the only person w a guilty claim on a scum is TWIE, so I don't see why ari slot sticks out wrt that logic?

[mhsmith0]

TWIE and Vax's slot don't look to make much sense with other scum, don't you agree?

TWIE I agree on, Vax I think the biggest think was the nature of Nahdia's subout (unless there's something else strong?)

But at the same time, I don't especially see why you don't fit in either, so "it's Ari by POE" is not a super compelling argument for me. And since you'd said
"2) She hasn't picked a fight with any of her scum members"
in particular, I'd like that to be spelled out more.

[mhsmith0]

true enough, and ari coming up as vanilla gives even more potential options there.

VOTE: creature

jail was given to spiff or ari, I should be jailed
track was presumably given out, ari is a fine track target
watch on spiffeh or TWIE (at this point I don't know that either role is that much more valuable, so I'd say whoever gets the watch should make theri own determination of which is better, tho i'm open to disagreement

[mhsmith0]

I think an Ari lynch will end the game, otherwise it's likely Spiffeh.

Do you want me to defend myself? That would be a pretty easy job if you're willing to listen.

I'm always willing to listen. Tell me why it's ari or spiffeh in relation to their own isos (and/or what scum have done), and tell me why it's not reasonable for it to be you.

[mhsmith0]

First because me being scum this game is the equivalent to Earth gaining enough matter to become larger than Jupiter, it would mean I really over-improved my scumplay.

What in particular? Are there key sections of the game where you would specifically say you're outside of your typical scum range?

[mhsmith0]

How so? I skim page 1 of your ISO, for isntance, and I'm not seeing a lot that I'd say was especially active or solvey.

Also, in a world where Ari was a goon, why didn't scum just bus him on day 2 (when that was very much a possibility) instead of their strongman??? That seems completely bizarre to me; why does that make sense to you?

[mhsmith0]

Day 1 was like the day I was the most active.

Do you think me as scum would've put such a strong resistance to my wagon?

... maybe? I confess to not really knowing your scum game all that well beyond having modded you in the game where you and ASP basically did nothing all game and town more or less quick lynched both of your lovers

[mhsmith0]

Also, didn't mastina claim rolecop to TheRealGin?

iirc she did claim role cop sometime early on. What's the relevancy of that issue?

[mhsmith0]

Declaring sitewide V/LA until June 7th. I'll be around, but lower levels of availability compared to normal.

[mhsmith0]

I'm basically on V/LA for the next 10 days, so I'll be able to give a shit about this game again in the middle of the next day phase. With that in mind, and since no one else seems to care all that much about solving or about convincing anyone to hop on a particular wagon:

VOTE: no lynch

And let's just do a plan like last time:

1) I've given my jail to ari or creature, they should use it on spiffeh
2) Watch gets used on me
3) Track gets used on whoever
4) Vax gets rolecopped

And hopefully we'll see more action tomorrow somehow.

[mhsmith0]

PS "3) Track gets used on whoever" means it gets used on someone inside {Ari, Creature, Vax}. Since Ari is known to be vanilla, that's probably a generically fine track, but I don't know that it's super important which one of the three gets tracked.

[mhsmith0]

Sure.

[mhsmith0]

Not me, not TWIE. Among the other three I don't know that there's a particularly good or bad choice.

[mhsmith0]

Actually i'd say give track to creature or vax, who should then use it on ari since we know he's vanilla.

[mhsmith0]

Role cop vax

[mhsmith0]

Night plan:

And let's just do a plan like last time:

1) I've given my jail to ari or creature, they should use it on spiffeh
2) Watch gets used on me
3) Track gets used on whoever (using on ari probably makes the most sense but using on vax or creature is probably acceptable)
4) Vax gets rolecopped

And hopefully we'll see more action tomorrow somehow.

[mhsmith0]

Creature, I hereby designate you the Gladiator for today. You have 48 hours to pick someone to gladiate, convince us they're scum, and it'll be you or your target who gets lynched. Fail to meet deadline and we just quicklynch you.

Sunday 6 PM Pacific
(expired on 2017-06-04 18:00:00)

[mhsmith0]

^edit: you have 48 hours to pick someone. Longer than that to convince us they're scum.

[mhsmith0]

Can nobody make a chart or list of the claims and Night Action results? Like, it will go a long way in figuring this stuff out!

Claims

You/Vax: VT (independent role cop uses have confirmed vanilla result, tho obv goon still possible)
Spiff: tracker inventor
TWIE: watcher inventor
me: jailkeeper inventor
creature: backup rolecop inventor

Notable night actions:
TWIE guiltied RC a while ago
I was jailed on a night when there was a kill (spiff gave his track to mastina who got shot that night, otherwise it'd be pretty much hard locked game)

Night action plan:
1) I get jailed
2) track AND watch get used on the same slot, either spiffeh or TWIE. This is so that if someone not targeted dies, we add a hard clear; if the target dies, we get a 1v1; and otherwise we get nightless

[mhsmith0]

^or theoretically we get a guilty tho I'd be pretty surprised if scum was in spif/TWIE

[mhsmith0]

I've given my jailkeep out (it's fairly obvious that there's no roleblock or "fuck with inventions" ability left but no real harm in only telling TWIE). Pending confirmation of track/watch.

[mhsmith0]

U give TWIE track, spiff?

[mhsmith0]

K
VOTE: Ari

[mhsmith0]

Remember TWIE gets watched tonight

[mhsmith0]

sorry for my vla, will check in substantively tonight

[mhsmith0]

I really think creature is town.

TWIE/Smiffeh/and especially mhsmith need to think really hard on who to give the jailkeep to in order to secure a town win here.

Every day that passes in real life and I see we haven't progressed in this game at all, I die a little inside.

I'd feel more sympathetic if you were working to progress the game. You say you have creature town, which of spiffeh/TWIE is scum then, and why? FYPOV you're town, you have a contrarian read, in your head space you're WAY ahead of where everyone else is... and you're doing nothing with it. Why is that?

PS I owe this game a substantive reread, MAYBE tomorrow, likelier saturday.

[mhsmith0]

Creature, you're sitting at L-1 and have basically checked out of things. What's your headspace right now? I don't especially want to rush a hammer before I do a full re-read (perpetually a "later" thing, which yeah I know sucks), but I'd like to know what you're thinking given that you're pretty reasonably likely to be today's lynch.

@all: what in particular made you think it's creature
@vax: if you think it's TWIE or Spiffeh, why not work to get that slot lynched? Like, if you want to develop a strong town case on creature and spiffeh, nothing is preventing you from doing so now, before we are in MYLO/LYLO.

[mhsmith0]

Gonna spend the next 1-2 days trying to do some solving, would greatly prefer no hammers before hand.

Final VCs

Final Vote Count of Day 1

Creature - 4 (TheWayItEnds,

Majiffy

,

BigYoshiFan

,

mastina

)
TheWayItEnds - 2 (Vaxkiller,

Gorkington

)

Ser Arthur Dayne

- 1 (

Aristophanes

)

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

- 9 (

mhsmith0

, Spiffeh,

Rick and Andrea

,

Sakura Hana

,

Titus

,

Vecna

,

RadiantCowbells

, Creature,

Ser Arthur Dayne

)

Not Voting:

TheRealGin-N-Tonic

Final Vote Count of Day 2

Aristophanes

- 1 (Spiffeh)

BigYoshiFan

- 4 (

Sakura Hana

,

mastina

,

Aristophanes

, Creature)

Vecna

- 8 (

RadiantCowbells

,

Majiffy

,

Titus

,

BigYoshiFan

, Vaxkiller,

mhsmith0

,

Rick and Andrea

,

Vecna

)

Not Voting:

Gorkington

, TheWayItEnds

Final Vote Count of Day 3

BigYoshiFan

- 7 (

Aristophanes

,

Titus

,

Sakura Hana

,

mhsmith0

, Spiffeh,

RadiantCowbells

, Vaxkiller)

Creature - 3 (

mastina

,

Majiffy

,

Rick and Andrea

)

mastina

- 1 (

BigYoshiFan

)

Not Voting: Creature, TheWayItEnds

Final Vote Count of Day 4

Majiffy

- 3 (

mhsmith0

,

Titus

,

Majiffy

)

RadiantCowbells

- 1 (

mastina

)

Rick and Andrea

- 6 (Spiffeh,

Aristophanes

, Vaxkiller,

Rick and Andrea

, Creature,

RadiantCowbells

)

Not Voting: TheWayItEnds

Final Vote Count of Day 5

RadiantCowbells

- 5 (Creature,

mastina

,

Majiffy

,

mhsmith0

, TheWayItEnds)
TheWayItEnds - 2 (Spiffeh,

RadiantCowbells

)
Not Voting:

Aristophanes

, Vaxkiller

Final Vote Count of Day 6

Creature - 1 (

Majiffy

)

Majiffy

- 4 (

mhsmith0

,

Aristophanes

, TheWayItEnds, Vaxkiller)
Vaxkiller - 1 (Spiffeh)

Not Voting: Creature

Final Vote Count of Day 8

Aristophanes

- 4 (Creature, Vaxkiller,

mhsmith0

, TheWayItEnds)
Creature - 1 (Aristophanes)

Not Voting: Spiffeh

[mhsmith0]

Vifam what's your SAD read and why?
-Rem (Ali)

A bit deflective after Vifam’s beeboy vote

Spiffeh seems to hold Marq in a high regard for his play, he points out Marq has made the worst post so far, then changes his mind pretty quick. If Spiffeh was town and felt that Marq already had a bad/scummy post I don't think he'd let him get off that easy

Nice post. Townpoint for this train of thought. I love me some good meta cases

Minus buddy points for spiff here

Lol this is garbage

its actually a post.
not garbage.

i got you some glasses because i think you need them:

This is the highest quality post of the thread so far.

Taking notes about how people are dealing with this spiffeh situatuon. Interesting that vifam finds something to take issue with with spiffehs turnaround, then does the exact same thing after an explenation. Cute.

Kinda null wrt buddy here actually

Glork what are your thoughts on the game sofar?


And in fire we trust, he shall be given power to lead.
-Rem (Ali)

Alisae is everywhere. We're gonna have to hydra one of threes days

A bit kiss-ass for buddies?

Creatures start seems pretty agitated compared to what im used from seeing from him.

Null for buddy; could be shading town, could be lazy distancing just to shade without any effort at followthrough

also, while im being candid,
the last three times ive seen scumspiff, i got a bad taste in my mouth from his posts in earlygame and let it go.

i havent gotten that this game.

which is probably lame, but.

p-edit: titus, what colour would you like your TOMBSTONE to be?
o:
o:

o: o: o:

slightly good for spiff I guess?

my strongest scumread right now is Titus' hydra for what I'm pretty sure are the same reasons Gork scumreads them

I forgot to move my initial RVS vote off her but hey it all turned out fine anyway

Super meh post here, doesn’t do anything at all, just stating a read and peace-ing out

I feel no type of way about it

It looks weird on the surface but from my experience scum!Firebringer trolls and acts like he doesn't care early on and I've only seen town!Firebringer get down to business right away.

So while I disagree with his assessment I think he's more likely to do what he's doing as town

He has had some other questionable posts that are worthy of suspicion but I don't think the push on you is one of them

Nope

I've mislynched Firebringer for nonsense pushes in the past (very recently actually)

Yeah I guess he could be compensating for his meta but he's not at the top of my radar atm sorry

And I can even kinda see where he's coming from?

You're generally an easy player to read and valuable when town. I can see town!Firebringer recognizing this and pressuring you early to confirm you're town and be able to work with you from there

I don't agree that pressuring you early makes it easier to get a read on you, but I can see why he would do it as town.

But you can do whatever, it's early and if Firebringer continues making shitty posts then I'll pay more attention to him

This is fine… except that Spiffeh ends up lynching the slot later on

SAD if you're looking for me to get off you then ignoring me is the worst way to make that happen

Kind of decent?

I will be interpreting this non-response as a scum claim until further notice

There's literally no reason for you to ignore my problems with you

Especially since I agree with you on Titus and if you were town we could have a nice little thing going if you try to address my concerns?

You're annoying

VOTE: Voices of Truth

Kind of decent movement there?

I am Steven Quartz and also a Millipede.

This is scum too.

OH NO!
YUME GETS A SCUMREAD!
NOW SHE'LL NEVER POST IN THREAD AGAIN!

What an easy scumread to fake dude.
-Rem (Ali)

Kinda villagery?

Vecna is town

Creature is town

Cheetory lean town
Voices by far my strongest scumread

Vote: Voices

Could you elaborate here?

^this^
@Yoshi I've seen nothing alignment indicative from Arthur so far, I get the feeling he's actively shitposting.
-Human Sequencer

Idk tbh

So... Rem and Ram, what's YOUR stance on SAD?
I recall you asking about him a few times.

I also feel like your throwing questions out for the sake of it, so prove me wrong here.

Scum.
Also people said this exact same bullshit thing (bolded) in House of Harmony and I was town.
So I'll rephrase the bolded to:

Let me say something so that I can make more of a reach and continue to fake my scumread on you.

-Rem (Ali)

Meh

I share a neighborhood with Rem and Ram too, their interactions with me were unsatisfactory.
First, their wishy-washy townread on me in the neighborhood followed by their supposedly RVS vote on me, which is why I claimed my vote to be serious.
Then, their responses to me interrogating them. They didn't rub me in the right way.
Also, as shown in this thread, they're asking questions left and right but they aren't actually materializing these questions into anything. Just asking for the sake of asking and looking busy.

Kinda of a decent point?

Why are you avoiding interacting with me at like every turn?
I'm asking because your explanation in 331 doesn't do it for me. What on page 13 felt icky/forced and why?
All of your "pushes" are surface level bullshit and the fact that you refuse to engage with me doesn't make me feel any better.

Decent

Towns {R&A, Yoshi, Vifam, SAD, Spiffeh}

Scum Butts {Titusdra, Rem and Ram}

Is this enough content guys?

beeboy probably doesn't bus/shade needlessly here, way before he got pressure? I guess I don’t know if he’d actually make a “reads” post that literally ignored EVERY one of his scumbuddies tho? Just so freaking weird…

I don't like how they outed there entire neighborhood.
Looked very much like scum "helping" by doing something that accomplishes literally nothing.

Such a nothing reason to push on R&R… can’t tell if it’s empty partner shade or opportunistic bullshit tho; off the cuff it seems like shading without being on the wagon, likelier R&R was town for it

Spiffeh's all over the place with his questions keep on keeping on buddy.

This is… kind of a town tell?

And Spiffeh continues to ask pointless questions that are serving him no purpose b/c he's not following up on them

Sakura what do you think of SAD?

Do you have any scum reads atm?

beeboy why are you scum reading Rem and Ram?

Majiffy I have ISO'd you and remain unconvinced
What do you think of SAD?

Ehhh… maybe I guess?

Anyway I just ISOed Spiffeh in DEFCON and he also did the weird shtick of calling random posts awful and asking random questions.
Few examples:

Meh, I guess not indicative

There's too many people who have thrown side shade on Voices but refuse to commit to the wagon. Recipe for early scum catch with scum trying to divert attention elsewhere.

just a reminder that titus is a little scummy.

VOTE: creature

Then a bunch of creature/vecna posts
…

Okay, let's kill Rem Ram with fire.

Put your vote there, then, instead of sitting with an RVSy SAD vote cheering the wagon from the sidelines.

2nd post comforting suspicions. This feels very much like a SCUMLORD
VOTE: majoffy

Leaning town on Spiffeh and beeboy.
Rick and Andrea and Rem and Ram and still and wagons.

I approve of creatures reads, hurray (both in this poat and the one above it)

So Vecna throws out a lazy town read on creature, and distracts with a majiffy vote/unvote… probably plus buddy points there

My neighborhood has four members so far – myself, Vecna, Creature and Marquis.

It’s some really weird-ass shit if three of the four scum were in the same hood (if creature or marquis slot)

Btw, Vecna and MoI seemed towny in the neighborhood (though I won't pull a randomidget).
Marquis not so much.

“Here, let me intervene and stop the bus”?

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

So Spiffeh ... what do you think of Vecna / Majiffy / Sakura as of now?

The deflection seems… a bit unlikely for spiff being a buddy?

beeboy is a good candidate for scum
PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

Cause my posts are too cutesy or w/e you said?

Not really what I expect from beeboy towards his buddy?

I think he means your not trying.
At least that's why I would think your scum right now.
-Rick

Oh yeah I forgot you wanted me to explain my reads, might as well do it now since I have my laptop on me at lunch.
Spiffeh: I think he is town because he has basically been pressuring from our neighborhood from the pregame which is pretty town. I don't really think he is scum trying to ML me either because he pursued me a lot harder at the start of cheetory mafia when he was trying to ML me.
Gork: I liked the way he was pressuring your slot and he feels a lot more engaged then he did in Plotinus and Cheetory mafia and I don't think Gork is a player that gets more engaged by town (please correct me on this if I am wrong).
R&A: I liked your early posting and as scum I recall you just stated reads and pushed people while in this game I feel like you are asking more questions and actually trying to solve the game rather then just pushing people and making analysis.
SAD: A combination of his troll posts and game solving makes me feel like he is town.
Yoshi: mainly just gut tbh.
Vifam: Feels like he is proactively trying to solve the game and use his vote to do things so town.
My reads haven't really changed much from the last time I posted in all honesty.

Accomodates R&A here, and also is accommodating spiffeh here. I guess I just don’t think “let me suck up to my scum buddy who’s pretending to push me” is what I’d expect out of beeboy here, especially given how utterly low effort his ISO overall was

But MoI! I want Creature AND SAD. ;~;
Can I get both?

Unless you have the ability to make it a Double Day you can't in a single Day.

And SAD is generally a much harder lynch than Creature so better to get the harder one done while we have as many Town alive as possible. Otherwise it will be easier for SAD's partners to divert his eating rope in later days.

“Let’s not lynch creature”

I like Creature for town significantly more than Vecna
I also like voting Voices

A bit odd if a buddy, though it’s not like there’s a real push towards vecna there

VOTE: Steven Quartz
This vote stays until a fuck is given by this slot

Yeah this is awful
It's inevitable that this slot will be replaced. You seemed to have some strong opinions as you caught up but opted to do the least useful thing you can do with your vote.

A bit stronger than I’d expect from distancing

Also Spiffeh, ill decide whats a usefull usage of my vote tyvm

Yeah I'm sure that vote will really compel Yume to start participating
I'm telling you the slot will get replaced. It doesn't make sense to me that you'd vote there over someone like MoI who you've seemingly been going back and forth with all game.

ditto

Creature SAD Quartz Beeboy

There you go. That's where I am at on scum.

Vifam and Sakura most definitely town.

How can you have a scumread on quartz?

Vecna what right do you have to ask that when your vote is parked on quartz.
-Ali

Immediate pushback on that point, solid not buddy points there

Obviously declining that gladiate offer, Creature, and I doubt you're taking it seriously yourself.

It's up to town to decide if we're scum after your lynch, not some pact you arranged beforehand.
Besides that, human infallibility comes into play.
-HS

Not sure I always like the alisae posts from this hydra (but to be fair, its been like that in most games I guess), but the HS posts feel pretty strongly towny every single time.

Ignores the push on creature, just states a TR on RR

Also, I want people to explain this creature-crusade. Especially Titus and Alisae since I know they have just as much experience with the slot as I do - and they know full well this is how it ALWAYS plays.

Kind of weird to do this right after stating TR on RR

…
Meh, stopping for the night. One weird thing about SRing creature though is comparing to his most recent scum game
viewtopic.php?t=71661&f=11&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
EVEN AS AN IC, he basically lurked and was super low content as scum. Which is actually something of an argument for him being potentially town here, since even while this was ongoing, his scum meta was pretty substantially different in that game (and I’d think he’d be MORE inclined to give a shit as an IC than in a random large theme)

PS I'm at end of page 49 in my reread.

[mhsmith0]

Ultimately mhsmith you are going to have to decide who town is

FWIW, this is the part that I really don't like as an attitude. Like, if you're town here, there is literally nothing stopping you from voting TWIE if he's your best read and trying to push that lynch through. We have a lynch today, we have a lynch tomorrow, and we have a final jailkeep if both of those fail, so I don't understand why you or anyone else would want to become LESS aggressive as a consequence. If you think it's him, you should be doing something about it instead of just shrugging and not caring. If nothing else, that process at least MIGHT give me a better read on you, and since you've noted that getting town read by me is a priority, if you're town this just seems like what you should be doing ehre.

[mhsmith0]

This isn't really getting anywhere, and I doin't really have any decently strong SR's, and it's basically deadline

VOTE: creature

if wrong, sorry I guess

[mhsmith0]

OH THANK GOD

[mhsmith0]

btw creature, I thought this was a better than normal scum game for you, and it's unfortunate that you lost. I mean, I'm not sorry about it but I think you played well enough to win

[mhsmith0]

Also I'm less salty at jiffy since his SR on you was correct

Also scum getting a backup rolecop means that mechanically, I don't think it was particularly townsided, just SUPER swingy on killing the rolecop early and not having early scum PR lynches *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

#RevengeOfTheMod

[mhsmith0]

I kinda want to see dead chat, whether it's like 90 pages of people bitching about it taking forever or it's just silent or something. Also want to see scum chat to see how things went down during all the lolbussing

[mhsmith0]

lolol the funny part was I was seriously tinfoiling about TWIE buddying me and going with a bus ftw

I guess start casing each other or something since I'm still mech clear

[mhsmith0]

Spiffeh, a full list of all actions you took and why you took them woudl be appreciated (inventions received and used, as well as why you sent which out to who)

[mhsmith0]

Also, do you think that Vaxkiller successfully predicted that you'd send your track to mastina after RC lynch, or did he just get lucky? If it was a successful prediction, why do you think he presumed it?

[mhsmith0]

Mhsmith im town reading you again, not sure about spiffeh anymore, almost seem like a hail mary "why would I defend so hard if I was scum" sort of deal.

Waht he is saying is not sounding like the town spiffeh I have played with

.

Vax' read list:

TOWNIEST TOWNS TO EVER TOWN
Vax
TWIE
mhsmith

mastina

(she is at the top with me now)
Creature
Town

Null zone
Majiffy
Null zone

scum time!
Aristo

Spiffeh

scum time!

I know i called majiffy obv town before but spiffeh is at the top of my scum list. I tried talk to creature over night and he was pretty quiet. Just asked if I thought there was a roleblocker in this game.

@Vax: talk me through how you changed your mind from this point?

[mhsmith0]

Ugh, I dont want a No lunch
VOTE: Creature

What was bad about a no lynch there? Just boredom? Something else?

[mhsmith0]

Spiffeh why does nahdia fake rage quit there if she's scum?

Vax, why does spiff shoot TWIE instead of letting him tunnel you, look bad, and then spiff gets the jail for the win?

[mhsmith0]

From a no lynch, we'd have had more time (if scum shot, we get another clear). So the ? is, what's the gain from lynching nit your main suspect?

And yes, the ? Is why does scum!spiffeh shoot there when no shooting is a pretty defensible play. I await your thoughts.

[mhsmith0]

Also if you're sure it's spiffeh, why haven't you voted?

[mhsmith0]

Your theory kill motive is obvious: if you're last scum and no kill, you need to pass BOTH TWIE and spiffeh in being town read, whereas if you shoot it's down to just one. Realistically, scum!you never no kills unless you're gojng for a crazy stunt, while spiffeh if scum can reasonably choose either path.

[mhsmith0]

How much experience do you have with mastina by the way?

[mhsmith0]

Curious about your shared experience. How well do you think she knows you?

Also, have you seen townies fake scum claim in twilight before? If so, how did creatures action there stand out to you?

[mhsmith0]

What did you think of creatures move last evening? I thought it was brilliant.

I have an opinion, but I want to see what spiffeh thinks there as well.

[mhsmith0]

not scum btw (no shit )

[mhsmith0]

And since this game has been incredibly long and boring, I promise to hammer this thing one way or the other before the end of the weekend, maybe before the end of the week.

Spiff, I'll probably note that the biggest thing that I was TRing the vax slot for was nahdia's replace out, so that's probably something worth discussing, especially if you have any personal meta w her to begin with.

[mhsmith0]

I'm basically gonna reread, ask some questions, and do some thinking. This is objectively among the very worst town games I've played, and would really not enjoy dealing with the embarassment of totally fucking this up and reading dead thread and postgame.

[mhsmith0]

On a differnet note: What did you think of creature's twlight scumclaim btw?

[mhsmith0]

Yeah but I'm actually proud of my town game, so this shitfest isn't so good

Also I want to log a town win over RC because that's good for warm fuzzies

[mhsmith0]

What's kind of funny is I actually thought it was kind of mediocrely done. I may compare that to the last time I saw something similar and see if vax pings as consistent w the scum reaction or not.

Not tonight though, I'm going to bed since near midnight. Have a good night.

[mhsmith0]

I guess I don't understand why it's unreasonable to be "falling for this shit" when you were also falling for it not long ago?

Also, spiffeh has had a more villagery LYLO than you so far, so there's that too.

[mhsmith0]

Remind me what was driving your inactivity?

[mhsmith0]

So mechanically speaking, scum goon sounds fair?

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that this is fair and that you believe this to be true. Why then did you hammer jiffy and why then were you on ari wagon?

[mhsmith0]

Oh sorry. I thought that was hammer.

I can't prove anything. I just prefer Ari over Majiffy, but here it goes:

VOTE: Majiffy

Like I look at this hammer vote in particular, and it's pretty weird from a perspective of "it's not reasonable for the last scum to be a goon".

[mhsmith0]

So I'd also like you to talk about when you changed your mind from "let's lynch the VT claims" to "the last scum can't be a goon" and what in particular made you change your mind about that.

PS ftr, as a reviewer I would not have passed

Town
jk inventor
tracker inventor
watcher inventor
rolecop inventor
backup rc
backup jk

Scum
strongman
watch immune
track immune
goon

but if you, say, threw out town's backup rolecop inventor I probably would have passed it, and anti is more townsided as a designer than I am, so even if it's not something I'd have done, it's within the range of something HE reasonably could have done (IIRC TTH is a bit townsiding too, but I'm less sure of that).

PS spiffeh some time ago was complaining about the balance. If he's a scum tracker inventor, it's pretty obviously not unbalanced, which means that complaining would necessarily be fake. What in your mind makes it sound fake?

[mhsmith0]

PPS fwiw my current reviewer meta seems to be:
Pass game that I feel is a bit townsided
Players complain that game is very townsided
Scum cruise to an easy win

so lol idk i guess

[mhsmith0]

Not hammering tonight, but I'll either do so tommorrow or oever weekend. Right now I'd hammer you, so so far you are letting me hammer you.

[mhsmith0]

Ugh I can't fucking let that happen, I mean seriously think about my actions, you really think they are scummy?

At the beginning of the day I was 97% sure it was spiffeh (which is why I didnt vote). 3% of me still thought you could be some sort of ascetic/jk proof/SOMETHING uber powerful. THe rational side of my mind said "no, that doesnt make sense" but It was hard to let go. I figured I could wait until spiffeh came in because if he was scum he would likely come in and just vote.

I got lucky, because he not only came in and voted, but he came in and lied! So then I was 100% sure.

Uh... did you forget that I was rolecopped?

[mhsmith0]

I don't really care all that much about balance as a point here. Anti townsides well beyond what most people agree with.

Why are spiffeh self defense points wrong? He's using the Gork shot in partuclar as a defense; why is it reasonable for scum!him or scum!rc to take that shot knowing the high risk of it being a disaster for them?

If you want me to seriously consider scum!spiffeh, you're going to need to engage w his actual points and refute them.

[mhsmith0]

Look at spiffeh! I slowly let him go because he just sat around and fucking lurked. Its hard to get a god damn read on someone who lurked thier way to victory.

After I got my bearings when I came in I realized spiffeh had to be scum city. They were Playing TOTALLY different than in Gay Mafia. *snip* (I wrote more but it was just mean)

Just check out thier iso as town here:

viewtopic.php?t=70899

I'll look at it. How in partuclar is he different in your opinion?

[mhsmith0]

@both: Feel free to look through iso's of flipped scum to see stuff that looks like scum-scum interactions (the other guy) or that looks like town-scum (you)

[mhsmith0]

Some examples...

Spiffeh seems to hold Marq in a high regard for his play, he points out Marq has made the worst post so far, then changes his mind pretty quick. If Spiffeh was town and felt that Marq already had a bad/scummy post I don't think he'd let him get off that easy

Nice post. Townpoint for this train of thought. I love me some good meta cases

Looks like an opportunistic hop onto someone pushing a town

Lol this is garbage

its actually a post.
not garbage.

i got you some glasses because i think you need them:

This is the highest quality post of the thread so far.

Taking notes about how people are dealing with this spiffeh situatuon. Interesting that vifam finds something to take issue with with spiffehs turnaround, then does the exact same thing after an explenation. Cute.

This substantially lessens the impact of the previous post

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

So Spiffeh ... what do you think of Vecna / Majiffy / Sakura as of now?

beeboy is a good candidate for scum

PEdit: @Gorkington do you have any scum reads currently?

Cause my posts are too cutesy or w/e you said?

These... don't really look all that much like how scum react to someone bussing, and look more like natural deflecting? I guess the fact that Manga vs Vecna was already the designated bus/theater of the game dampens it a bit, but it at least feels more natural for a "no let's try and make this townie look over there" sort of thing than weird-looking scum buddy interactions.

And that's just from like part of page 1 of the triple beeboy/vecna/magna ISO, which I'll be skimming through further hwen i have time.

[mhsmith0]

Also Spiffeh, ill decide whats a usefull usage of my vote tyvm

Yeah I'm sure that vote will really compel Yume to start participating

I'm telling you the slot will get replaced. It doesn't make sense to me that you'd vote there over someone like MoI who you've seemingly been going back and forth with all game.

And what gave you the impression i was scumreading MOI for his actions? Just because i dont agree with his reasoning and actions, doesnt mean I think it comes from scum.

This is really weird coming from scumbuddies, and reads a LOT more like just a deflection attempt.

[mhsmith0]

Beeboy
RA, Spiffeh, Vifam
Yoshi, Sakura, Titusdra, RR, Gork, SAD
Vecna, Kurur0, MOI, Majiffy (null)
Quartz, Creature, Marquis

Does beeboy have the balls to just slot a scumbuddy all the way at the top there, or does he just suffer from the standard TMI problem of being a wolf and throw his UTR wolf bro into bottom tier while not actually doing anything to actually put pressure or sort?

[mhsmith0]

Maquis personally I want to lynch for posts like 899 and . Way too much sad sack active lurking for my taste. Also comments from the Neighborhood don’t sit right with me.

@vax: why does Magna toss out this read and then never bother revisiting if your slot was just lazy LHF (low hanging fruit)

Can someone break down to me why no one cares about Marquis?

This is actually kind of interesting if it comes from scumbuddies

SIBLING NAHDIA! :O
MY APATHY IS KINDA LESS NOW :O

@mod replace me out

sorry for the inconvenience everyone.

this is... kind of weird if they're actually scumbuddies here?

[mhsmith0]

And as much as I hate it I really can't ignore how completely overpowered town would be if TWIE is telling the truth about his result.

Assuming TWIE town and RC scum, scum would have to fucking combat a rolecop inventor (mastina is town and that will never change) which pretty much acts as a cop that gets a guilty result on at least three of their four members. All the while, they have to fucking avoid the watcher, tracker, and jailkeep inventions, all of which are also pretty much guilties if used correctly.

I realize that scum are probably in their worst case scenario right now being down watcher-immune and strongman in the first two Days, but town basically has an autowin if both the Jailkeep inventor and Watch inventor are town. That is an immense fucking flaw in game design right there, I don't care how much mastina tries to say that Antihero stacks the town in his other games. I just can't fathom that all the inventors are town and if they are then I will probably complain about how unbalanced this set up is on behalf of the scum team.

But I trust Anti wouldn't make such a ridiculously one-sided setup, so I have no choice but to think at least one of the powerful inventors (Watcher, Jailkeep, Rolecop) are scum.

mastina is town for obvious reasons.
Vifam I was doubting earlier but so far mhsmith seems pretty town

I've been saying FROM THE MOMENT Rem and Ram (TWIE's predecessor) claimed watch-inventor that they were coasting heavily on that claim(4118) and TWIE's play has only exacerbated that belief. The fact that he was such a valuable role allowed him to escape my radar for the most part, but my recent analysis of setup balance makes me think that role is probably scum here.

So yes that's where I'm at currently. I'm gonna read the Day and see if my mind changes at all. I have like never read RC correctly so I don't know how helpful his content will be to this situation but I guess we'll find out soon.

Someone talk to me about this, in case it wasn't obvious I'm strongly leaning towards lynching TWIE

This is something that I think is fairly hard for scum who knows that they're just a scum tracker inventor and the whole thing is bullshit to be thinking or faking.

Also lol creature for not just claiming backup rolecop when it was very cleraly relevant to the mechanics-based discussions going on.

[mhsmith0]

This is actually kind of interesting if it comes from scumbuddies

this is... kind of weird if they're actually scumbuddies here?

Why and why?

The latter in particular I don't find all that weird

For #1, the double shade from two different scum slots (while vecna/magna was already a thing), and beeboy had shaded there earlier which meant he cared enough to come back to it

For #2, I guess I don't think it's particularly normal to be excited about someone replacing in (who is good at scum too!) and then just bail out of the game soon afterwards. Then again I feel like strategic replace-outs are apalling in general so I might have a blind spot there *shrugs*

PS Going to airport soon, then I have a flight, I may or may not check in pre-flight.

[mhsmith0]

@both: Feel free to look through iso's of flipped scum to see stuff that looks like scum-scum interactions (the other guy) or that looks like town-scum (you)

I mean any associations I find now are probably inherently biased with the fact that I know he's scum so I don't know how helpful that will be for you in making your decision but I guess I will try later

I mean, yeah it'd be helpful because "knowing he's scum" and "trying to bullshit up reasons why I know he's scum" aren't really the same thing so there might be something indicaitve there for one or the other of you.

[mhsmith0]

FYI my flight just landed and I'm about to meet family. Will try and check in tomorrow.

[mhsmith0]

Actually @vax you have <24 hours to convince me NOT to hammer.

[mhsmith0]

Actually I don't have time for this tonight so no hammer. Vax, tell me why you're upset by the prospect of spiffeh lurking his way to victory. Also talk about what made you paranoid of me early day today.

[mhsmith0]

Shamelessly prodging. Worked five hours today from my hotel room when it was supposed to be a day off, and then family time ran late and now I'm just exhausted. I have more family time tomorrow and fly back Wednesday so I'll be non useless Wednesday night. Sorry for anyone inconvenienced but this is what happens when work time and family time eat up basically all of my energy.

[mhsmith0]

New plan: hammer by saturday night, and try to do so by friday night. Not hammering tonight, don't really have energy for much reading rn, should have more time/energy tomorrow

[mhsmith0]

Some recent mod/reviewer meta:

Anti:
viewtopic.php?p=8182350#p8182350
10/3, scum swept
Scum:
JOAT (roleblock, messenger, global flavor tracker)
sticky Jailkeeper/voyeur (substantially nerfed for a jk)
modifier cop (basically a rolecop)

Town:
modified motion detector (nerfed MD basically)
macho odd night flavor watcher
macho double voting neighbor
vengeful reactive neighbor (basically vengeful neighbor with a small boost)
1-shot friendly neighbor and compulsive fruit vendor
tracker inventor
holomorphic cop (some kind of flavor cop?)
beta radiation cop neighbor
census taker
non-consecutive follower
...
I actually don't understand the mechanics at all here and can't really comment

Mini 1717
viewtopic.php?p=7502294#p7502294

Scum:
blackmailer ninja
reflexive neighborizer, modified commuter
modified voyeur, backup ninja, modified commuter
(all scum flavor)

Town:
Fruit vendor
Neighborizing vigilante
Modified watcher (slightly nerfed watcher)
Tracker
Psychologist (nerfed cop)
Ascetic jailkeeper
Flavor cop
Modified backup (can pickup lynchee roles)
Delayed watcher
full flip enabler, mass roleblocker (upon death)

10/3, with a flavor cop, a semi-cop, a vigilante, a jailkeeper, and a pair of nerfed watchers plus other stuff, up against three crap roles (ninja is really the only useful thing, but most of town's power wasn't in watching/tracking)
went to 3/1 MYLO before town won
town seems legitimately stacked here

TTH:
viewtopic.php?p=9056609&user_select%5B% ... 1#p9056609
micro 697
7/2
Scum (w scum flavor):
flavor tracker
loved 1-shot machoizer

Town
bodyguard
odd night jailkeeper
encyclopedia (confusing role, also mod fuckup on role pm since bloody mary WAS in game)
novice rolestopper
flavor watcher
motion detector
flavor cop

town seems ridiculously stacked here

Heartless
Mini 1756
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65000
10/3
Scum
watcher
neighborizer/1-shot executioner (and only if there was no NK)
backup

Town
one-off roleblocker (nerfed RB)
even flavor tracker
mass motion detector (unclear if they get 3 separate y/n or combined)
1-shot mass eavesdropper (get all investigative role results)
babysitter/rolestopper
JOAT (loverize / delay / vote thief)
usurper (some kind of bonus for correctly targeting scum day/night 1)
gladiator and mass neighborizer
governor
loved and semi-ascetic

town seems overall strong


I'd say overall it kinda reinforces the concept that anti/tth make games more townsided than what I'd set.

And if you take out the backup rolecop, in a 13/4 game...

Town
Tracker inventor
Jailkeeper inventor
backup jk inventor
rolecop inventor
watcher inventor

Scum
watch immune
track immune
strongman
goon

is something that i'd be pretty fine with (which suggests that town getting one extra PR compared to what I'd ok is in range of what THEY would ok). swingy on the rolecop (both how long it lasts and whether town or scum get the inventions), ditto the jailkeeper (though more for whether town or scum get it)


Meanwhile...

Town
watcher inventor
jailkeeper inventor
backup jk
rolecop inventor
backup rolecop

Scum
tracker inventor
tracker immune
watch immune
strongman

seems intuitively scumsided to me. There's a strong implication that tracker immune and tracker aren't both scum that town would normally make, trackers can be given to scum and they can aggressively look for what town is doing (and potentially get "guilty" results to drive mislynches), jailkeeper inventor potentially sows a lot of chaos early if misplayed (scum get invention or town misuses at night), and town doens't really have anything *that* strong to compensate

and there's also the potential for track/watch immune scum to stay unflipped, and that's a fairly non-obvious pair of scum powers, which makes town more prone to mislynch its PRs

so yeah, not really accepting setup spec as clearing of vax here

[mhsmith0]

I've also been reading through day 1, nearing end, will post notes after each day readthrough (fortunately, day 1 is a big chunk of the game)

[mhsmith0]

• Page 1 – nothing interesting
• Page 2
o 29: Spiff votes SAD
o 40: beeboy votes gork; MAYBE distancing from spiff chainsaw rvs vote on SAD protecting gork?
o 43: that actually was a fairly bad post by marquis
o 46: good post/vote by spiffeh on marquis on that post
o 49: openly lazy post by marquis; “don’t vote gork” but also nothing about what to do instead, reasonably consistent with scum “defending” town
• Page 3
o 53: marquis talks about lurking it out as scum, while lurking it out
o 56: a bit overstated by spiffeh (there’s still beeboy), but he’s not wrong about the posts being sketchy
o 60: nothing post by marquis
o 63: interesting turnaround by spiffeh on marquis, not sure why. Otoh, beeboy was a fine spot to be voting there
o 66: nothing post by marquis
o 67: FB talks about a “townslip” by marquis
o 71: spiff argues against it being a legit townslip
o 72: more marquis laziness
• Page 4
o 75: marquis talks more about how he’s lazy as scum… while being lazy
o Some discussion about how marquis’ wording was town but I don’t think it was explained well enough for me to get it, so basically ignoring it
o 88: BYF Tring marquis there, 85 was an ok post
o 92: vifam votes spiff
o 94: marq asks why
o 98: interesting point by vifam about spiffeh changing his mind overly quickly there
• Page 5
o 118: kind of a weird response by marquis to the suspicion of spiffeh for his quick shift
• Page 6
o 127: ok response by spiffeh
o 129: solid post there by spiffeh I think, reads like a legitimate thought process
o Rest of page seems ok by spiffeh
• Page 7 – I feel like I should have thoughts here, but I really don’t? I guess the most interesting thing is Vecna’s 174 theoretical chainsaw of spiff by voting SAD
• Page 8
o 195: Vecna sheeps Vifam’s note criticizing spiffeh wrt Marquis; a bit more natural if Marquis is the scum there
o 197: kind of weird by Vecna there regardless of spiffeh alignment. Could be an excuse to backoff a “scumread” of a buddy, could be an excuse to create “content”
• Page 9 – nothing really
• Page 10
o 234: interesting post by gork giving town points to spiff on gut/feels
o 245: super lazy sheeping scumread of Titus by Marquis
o 249: fair followup question by spiff
• Page 11
o 251: spiff following up to gork on SAD
o 253: substantive thought on FB by spiff
o … like the entire page is good by spiff
• Page 12
o 286: MR likes marquis’s postings there
• Page 13
o 302: BYF likes spiff postings there
o 303: vifam likes marquis
o 307: don’t especially love spiff’s backout of the FB read
• Page 14 – meh
• Page 15 – not really much, but kinda ok of spiff on the RR wagon
• Page 16 – ok responses by spiffeh to SAD; 389 at sakura is a pretty decent post without any particularly clear scum motivation
• Page 17 – the most interesting thing is beeboy’s needless townread of spiffeh at 424. Reads more like dumping a TR on an actual townie than trying to bump up the read of a scumbuddy with a really strong fakeclaim anyway. A bit weird to say literally nothing about any of his wolf bros in that case but Magna was MIA, Vecna hadn’t done much, and same for Marquis. It’s actually potentially more indicative that beeboy did NOT TR marquis there, given the existence of some consensus TR on the slot already.
• Page 18 – ok posting by spiffeh
• Page 19 – 451 is good by spiffeh, ditto 465
• Page 20 – meh
• Page 21
o 520: Marquis with the super lazy scum read on two consensus scumspects (both town – SAD, Titus)
• Page 22
o 532: SAD with interesting meta suspicion on spiffeh
o 546: mediocre post by spiffeh back towards SAD (though given that all the wagons at the time were on town, it’s not like he could have been trying to distract from a scum wagon)
o 548: in a situation where it’s all town wagons, kind of weird for scum!spiff to get into a pretty pointless fight with sakura
• Page 23 – meh
• Page 24 – does vecna have the balls to just sheep creature’s reads in 591 when he’s going town on both scumbuddies and only on scum (also lolcreature including on 595 )
• Page 25 – 622 could go either way wrt spiff alignment; it’s different from how he treated the other people who were pushing SAD (all townies) at the least
• Page 26 – 646 seems villagery of spiffeh, following up again on a point that he seems to care about
• Page 27-29: meh
• Page 30: 745 was ok by spiffeh; a lot of effort being given to dismantle a town wagon at a point in time when it’s entirely unneccesary for scum!spiffeh
• Page 31 – 755 looks like a real read by spiffeh on SAD; 760 is ok
• Page 32 – 775 is a weird post by scum!spiffeh, completely needless at a point where it’s mainly town wagons; 778 could go either way by Magna; 789 is odd by beeboy towards someone distancing
• Page 33-35 – meh
• Page 36 – 888 reads more like paranoia from spiffeh than shading; 891 is a good thought, pushing beeboy for content on the Titus wagon, while he’s on the side of SAD scum (and as a consequence Titus town), which reads more like actually working through his reads in a mentally consistent manner than faking something in a weird way; 899 is maquis showing up to do literally nothing again
• Page 37
o 901 more nothing from marquis
o 905 is pretty easy to be a distancing post by marquis towards vecna given the primary push on titus
• Page 38
o 931: Given that scum was mainly lurking to that point day 1 (less so if spiff scum, but even then it’s ¾ at that stage) this isn’t really much against the idea of marq!scum
• Page 39-42 meh
• Page 43
o 1050 – vecna to spiff, seems likelier to be openly buddying towards a non-buddy
o 1065 – discrediting post to spiff, again likelier to not be towards a buddy
• Page 44
o 1086 – completely needless town read on RR there by scum!spiffeh
o 1087 – ditto, now wrt creature (and the last bit pushing on R&A seems like scumhunting too)
o 1097 – showing legitimate insight towards what vecna is doing, again completely needless in a scum!spiffeh world (especially with magna already bussing)
• Page 45
o 1113 – vecna to spiffeh, again a werid interaction in a scum!spiff world
o 1121 – spiff followup, again reads way more like a sorting attempt than theater (compare to the sometimes overblown stuff between vecna and magna)
• Page 46
o 1127 – spiff: seems way more like natural hedging than scum trying to fake it (and if scum, why even bother there?)
o 1132 – don’t really hate 265, would agree that spiff’s 512 is a bit skeezy, but in aggregate just seems like not actually all that scummy (it’s also legitimate to question why SAD would be overselling the Titus wagon wrt voting pattern, but not actually substantiating it [it’s not super scummy on SAD’s end to do so, but it’s entirely reasonable to question it and think it might be] )
o 1148 – seems entirely fair response by spiffeh to SAD there
o 1149 – natural followthrough by spiffeh on SAD to RR
• Page 47
o 1167 – reads a bit non-buddy between vecan and spiff; ditto 1171 (which reads more like an excuse not to follow through on his bus when pushed to do so by a townie than a “I’m going to go STRONGER on weird theater and say that I’m weirded out by a buddy pushing me to actually push another buddy” sort of thing
• Page 48-53 meh
• Page 54
o 1329+: people talk lurker lynching, then beeboy and marquis show up to basically do nothing
o 1332 by beeboy, a bit likelier to be tossing shade on the marq slot he knows is scum than to be propping up scum!spiffeh for no particular reason
• Page 55
o 1374 – Vecna to RR reading similar to an earlier response to spiffeh; seems likelier (especially since this came later) that it’s a natural reaction to town pushing him, as opposed to specifically constructing this to mimic how he talked to a scumbuddy
• Page 56
o 1379 – tough to say how to read this post from beeboy to marquis. Could easily be laying groundwork for a bus, could easily be fake content towards a townie that’s LHF
o 1399 – seems honest by spiff towards SAD. MAYBE is an excuse to abandon a wagon that won’t go through, but I still mildly TR it
• Page 57
o 1400/1 – could be a fakeable interaction I guess b/w bee and spiff, basically null I guess
• Page 58 – main note is vecna interacting a lot with various town, which kinda reads similar to how he treated spiffeh (and NOT beeboy and NOT marquis and NOT magna [who he was bussing] )
• Page 59
o 1468: more absolute nothing from marquis; literally just empty shade towards vecna
• Page 60
o 1480: weird from magna towards marquis. Could easily be a LHF push, could easily be mediocre distancing. Comparatively, a more substantive question/engagement there towards spiff, and I kind of want to **** this to see if magna EVER does “solving” stuff wrt asking genuine-looking questions towards his wolf bros (beeboy/gin/vecna)
• Page 61
o 1506: vecna going aggressive on the bus towards magna
• Page 63
o 1557: magna going aggressive on the bus back
• Page 66
o 1630: a bit more likely that magna is light shading his wolf bro (who no townies had really been pushing) than if marq was town there.
• Page 68
o 1683: a bit odd out of nowhere from beeboy if marq!scum, unless he was trying to divert attention towards a goon and away from slots that were actually useful?
o 1687/8 more nothing from marq
• Page 79
o 1960: would be nice if mastina’s SR on marq via VCA was explained but oh well I guess
• Page 81
o 2021/2: vecna shading spiff and then asking for content, as opposed to the super hard-scum read like he did with magna or the lazy bus with beeboy, just seems DIFFERENT treatment
• Page 83
o 2051: null from beeboy to nahdia
• Page 86
o 2138: insightful question from spiff to vecna
o 2144: seems like a villagery read progression on majiffy, and seems like an utterly pointless fight to pick for scum!spiffeh
• Page 87
o 2166/7: completely needless for scum!spiffeh towards beeboy after momentum was lessening
• Page 88
o 2175: I guess I don’t see why this is what nahdia is poking at if she thinks that creature isn’t a good push, and could easily just be trying to push attention towards creature vs majiffy
o 2183/7: makes a decent point, then clarifies where wrong while still making a push… like, that’s just a fairly hard pair of posts to make in quick order to/about a wolf bro
• Page 89
o 2205: I’m actually going to null read this creature defense by spiffeh, just because creature’s reads were so utterly awful that I could easily see scum making an effort to keep him alive
o 2210: this TR of vecna by spiff on that point isn’t a great look
o 2212: completely needless and probably counter-productive TR on Titus by scum!spiff tho
• Page 90
o 2226: more substantive engagement from vecna to spiffeh; 2231 is another example of talking TO spiffeh instead of ABOUT him
• Page 91
o 2253 is actually hilarious, though irrelevant to current game state
• Page 92
o 2276 is a decent point by mastina about nahdia possibly WKing town there
o 2290 is an empty/useless question by vecna to gin. Note the total lack of ability to go anywhere or do anything helpful with it.
• Page 93
o 2303 magna talking about spiff not to him, but I guess it’s a bit weird to SR a buddy for Tring you? Mainly null towards spiff I think. Actually talks TO nahdia, but at the same time, it’s kind of weird to engage with zero implied suspicion on something (asking useless questions) that sure seems like the valid basis of at least a scumlean
o 2304: kind of the flip side from nahdia. No paranoia at all that magna is just shading her or himself asking a useless question in that spot.
o 2308: vecna asking a substantive question towards SAD, oriented towards what he’s interested in (the magna discussion)
o 2312: kind of a useless question by nahdia
o 2317: null followup by nahdia
o 2319: blah followup by magna towards nahdia
• Page 94
o 2332: continuation of a the conversation, still not really going anywhere, it’s just something they’re talking about in a fairly blah way
o 2339: magna side of it, still kind of a lengthy conversation about one specific thing (creature disagreement), still neither side really doing anything with it wrt sorting each other, or really investing all that much in it
o 2344: magna towards gork sort of sounds similar to how he talked w nahdia tho
o 2348: meh post from nahdia. Saying something, but it doesn’t especially *matter* at that point?
• Page 96
o 2379: nahdia Tring beeboy there NAGL. Also 30 minutes is fairly fast to be reading 15 pages unless it’s a super skim sort of thing
o 2394: magna talking to vifam about a disagreement a lot differently than he talked to nahdia
o 2398: idk what to think of nahdia vote there
• Page 97
o 2406: nahdia going to the bat for beeboy discrediting sakura there not really great
o 2417: spiff going back to beeboy well, 2420 decent followup and doesn’t much look like a bus (tho the quick move onto ank dampens it)
o 2424: looks like an attempt to sort magna, not just to deflect pressure on him
• Page 98
o 2441: substantive from magna to spiffeh
• Page 102
o 2541: Gin Buddying SAD for vecna TR, while still shading vecna a bit
o 2561: bizarre TR of marq there. Does Gin in particular bump his buddy up the tier list in that spot?
• Page 104
o 2592: lazy OMGUS by nahdia
• Page 108
o 2698/9: nahdia hops on something NAI by town as if it was scummy
• Page 110
o 2725: creature accusing nahdia of WKing there is pretty reasonable
• Page 111
o 2750: decent post by spiffeh tonally shitting on jiffy
• Page 112
o 2786: creature flipping back on nahdia (idk why she’d be probtown there)
• Page 114
o 2844: decent tonally by nahdia
• Page 119
o 2969: reads fake by nahdia
• Page 120
o 2725: ditto
• Page 122
o 3044: Vecna again with blah post towards a buddy; 3046 not quite as blah but still not any kind of an interesting post
o 3057: discrediting jiffy there with just one wolf bro on the scum reads list is interesting; a bit more suggestive of spiff!scum than nahdia!scum since goon doesn’t matter
o 3060: super blah post from vecna towards nahdia
• Page 124
o 3075/7: idk what to think of nahdia going kinda aggro there; part of me thinks it’s a bit villagery, part of me thinks it’s what a good goon should be doing there to distract town and get some MLs in when possible
o 3084: ok question from magna to nahdia
o 3099: a really good post if nahdia is scum
• Page 125
o 3116: weird by spiffeh to bother picking up that pretty old post by magna to respond to. Maybe forced interaction?
• Page 126
o 3128: and another odd thing to be quoting/responding to by spiff towards magna
o 3136: decent post if nahdia is scum, with the casual contempt
• Page 127
o 3174: just kind of an over the top defense of creature, when there’s potential momentum towards gin, that’s just really strange in that spot
o 3193: convenient by nahdia there to be SRing beeboy while actually advocating for RR lynch
o 3196: sticking up for magna, when it really doesn’t matter and there’s no real momentum there, is kinda odd for scum!spiff there I think?
• Page 128
o 3243: interesting if scum!nahdia continuing to resist gin wagon even as it gained a shit-ton of speed (tho obviously keeping gin around for at least one night to make an NK would be super convenient for scum)
• Page 129
o 3254: decent question by spiff to ank there
o 3256: decent post by spiff there
• Page 141 – idk what to think of nahdia there bitching about the wagon as it goes through. She’s not stupid scum, so at the least I’d think she’s capable of recognizing that it looks good
• Page 142
o 3544-6: empty interactions between nahdia and vecna
TLDR: spiffeh had a much more villagery day 1 than vax slot

[mhsmith0]

also i fucking hate this game

also whichever of you was scum gets props for lasting this long regardless of if I get it right, so congrats on that

[mhsmith0]

Day 2:
Generically, shooting in spif’s neighborhood is suggestive that scum don’t have eyes and ears there anymore. MAYBE it’s a setup sort of thing, but that’s a weird kill to make in that hood if there’s scum there, unless the whole point is that mastina and sakura are massively easier to manipulate if SAD is dead… which… meh. Vaguely conceivable but unlikelier than not.
• Page 143
o 3568: spiff deflecting to ank after magna momentum builds not really a great look
• Page 144
o 3590: on the one hand, not a bad look for spiff to note SAD stuff, on the other, he’s choosing to totally ignore it by pushing ank instead
• Page 145
o 3607: also a convenient post by scum!spiffeh deflecting away from magna (though sakura’s 3610 is suggestive that ank was less of a sketchy push by spiff given SAD’s reads)
o 3614: spiff chainsawing a bit for magna
• Page 149
o 3710: magna’s treatment of spiff resembles what he did towards Yoshi (town) much more than vecna (scum). MAYBE it was intentional… but if so it’d be weird.
o 3711: boring interaction between nahdia and vecna
o 3714: a bit odd for vecna to be at the bottom there given how little she’d talked about him before that slot
o 3721: I mean, I guess I could vaguely see this as vecna knowing that spiff is scum tracker while scum also has a tracker immune… but it’s just a weird thing to say there if so? Minor point tho.
o 3747: magna treating nahdia also differently than vecna
• Page 150
o 3750: nahdia deflecting from vecna/magna discussion to tlak about mastina
o 3759: nahdia arguing against a substantiated reason to consider mastina town
o 3761: continuation. And it doesn’t seem paranoia-like, more agenda-like
o 3763: kind of odd hedging from nahdia on the mastina SR, tho I guess that in particular is probably null?
• Page 152
o 3786: not sure what to make of magna’s spif shade there
o 3788: decent looking spot to make a vecna vote by nahdia there
• Page 153
o 3809: ok post by nahdia
o 3823: rule of 3 by nahdia for vecna/ank/byf?
• Page 154
o 3831: Mastina TR by nahdia could be convenient given her reads?
• Page 155
o 3866: possible discrediting of titus / buddying of basically conftown RR slot by nahdia?
• Page 159
o 3954: magna’s whining there is… kinda weird if he actually knew exactly what happened in the hood? The open buddying of nahdia for those 2 posts seems basically NAI
• Page 162
o 4040: ank SRing spiff and Tring nahdia, but the rest of her reads were horrific, so I don’t think it should get any weight?
• Page 164
o 4091: Vecna SRing both buddies here
• Page 165
o 4104: spiff watching R&A and scum shooting SAD seems backwards from what scum would do there for town credit? Unless somehow they also thought SAD was a PR? Which if so is really weird since he was a big wagon and never claimed anything?
o 4107: spiff hedgy and wishy-washy on magna, plausible he’s seeing which way wind blows
o 4110: super fakable interaction vecna to spiff there
o 4118: kind of a weird post to say that watcher inventor can be scum if spif is scum tracker inventor w a track-immune goon; otoh the “don’t watch the watcher” is basically necessary if he’s scum there, and directing attention away from the major mislynch option is not especially proscum there?
• Page 166
o 4131: spif at vecna is a good post there
o 4135: nahdia angling to get on the ank wagon at a critical juncture
• Page 168
o 4176-8 decent by spif
o 4179 could see that either way by spif given push on ank and reasonable likeliehood she dies
o 4186 good followup by spif
o 4188 a bit villagery by spif for the condescending prick attitude towards titus
• Page 172
o 4292 and thereabouts: a lot of what mastina says here is really lolworthy. BUT with mastina a known rolecop inventor, AND 2/3 scum roles known to be vulnerable, the fact that scum did NOT shoot there would mean either: beeboy/Gin didn’t bother communicating this to scum team (which would be lolololol), or spiff didn’t bother shooting her, DESPITE knowing that she was in fact serious in her claim, OR scum looked at her as a possible mislynch, which is probably more natural given the collective “fuck you” talk at the time (EOD1) if they did NOT have additional eyes/ears in the hood.
o Her talk about anti’s mod meta to not have a X-inventor and X-immune on same team is probably a useful point tho. Speaking of…
 Inorg - viewtopic.php?f=56&t=61997, viewtopic.php?f=90&t=59412
• Town: neighborizer, roleblocker inventor, weak cop inventor
• Scum: commuter inventor, vanilla cop, 2 goons
• Scumsided, but anti also seems to admit it postgame viewtopic.php?p=7218731#p7218731
• This is the one that really makes me question the seeming balance this game. Weak cop inventor and roleboocker inventor and neighborizer is kind of a shit combo for town, and scum got 2 PRs that they didn’t really need at all (MAYBE they get the vanilla cop, but commuter inventor totally unnecessary given limited town power)
 Org - viewtopic.php?f=56&t=54597
• Town: backup inventor, tracker inventor, PT cop inventor, doc inventor, 2x masons
• Scum: rolecop, encryptor, jailkeeper inventor, goon
• viewtopic.php?p=6084206#p6084206 there anti notes that scum got the jk inventor to give them options and to balance out town’s investigative power
• Kinda townsided, but scum 3x role power there is at worst comparable to flipped power here, and town’s power is probably greater (masons are clears, pt cop is largely useful, doc is only useful, tracker a bit helpful, and backup is useful – there’s also the obvious potential power play of masons getting indefinite doc on one of them, while PT cop then gets hard inno/guilties once masons are outed)
 TLDR: anti seems like a townsided mod in general compared to my personal standards, with inorg being a bizarre exception, though it being reviewed just by fakegod (who in my limited experience is null or maybe a touch scumsiding) may explain it, especially since anti had a weird idea during design wrt neighborizers being actively helpful to town (which they aren’t especially)
o Page 173
 4310: is really toxic by nahdia considering she later replaced out due to toxicity
 4315: does magna really dump on shade at scum!spiff when he’s busy bussing vecna and being down 2 scum already really fucks the scum team over, and they REALLY can’t afford to lose scum!spiff there as well?
 4318: ank making a decent point about coasting, which probably applies a bit more to spif than nahdia day 2 to that point
o Page 174
 4344: kinda out of nowhere shade against the scum PR wagon by spif
o Page 175
 4367: mediocre reasoning against vecna wagon
 4369: attempt to bring back the ank wagon
o Page 176
 4397: a bit aggressive from magna against spiff there given possibility of a vecna lynch
o Page 177
 4405: getting rid of a town read who’s pushing spiff on N2 maybe makes some sense for scum!spiff in that difficult slot
 4415: idk what to think of that from spif. Toards magna the post generically isn’t bad, but at the same time there’s clear motive to push the wagon back to ank
o Page 178
 4433: a bit weird to be throwing down a suckup post like that towards a buddy while going down?
 4422: an interesting hop off by nahdia there (edit: oh wait lolno, she hopped off vecna not off ank)
o Page 179
 4451: fairly empty shade by nahdia towards vecna
 4466: notably magna does NOT use nahdia’s hop off to make an opportunistic association push; the response to 4415 in particular feels like he’s nervous about town!spif pushing him for his read, as opposed to theater
 4467: could easily be staged by nahdia; also weird that there’s no suspicion towards magna for pushing a wagon she’s waffling on in that post at all
o Page 180
 4491: nahdia: “I’m paranoid”, always an old favorite
 4493: spif frustration towards magna feels real?
o Page 182
 4547: fair point by BYF against nahdia
 4853: I’d note that the link nahdia sent to that scum game is actually super different from her play here
• viewtopic.php?t=70853&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go also boringer
• But town: viewtopic.php?p=7842072&user_select%5B% ... 1#p7842072, viewtopic.php?t=65894&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go, viewtopic.php?t=66896&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go, etc also boringer than this game
• So I guess the frustration and emotion is kinda NAI for her?
• Actually her allcaps shtick pops up a bit in her scum game viewtopic.php?p=8881743&user_select%5B% ... 9#p8881743
o Page 195
 4866: nahdia paranoia about magna being the scum in the pair seems… overwrought? Like, it’s much more stated than actually displayed and natural?
TLDR: day 2 is kinda close? Maybe a BIT worse for nahdia than spiff but I don't think it's super compelling.

[mhsmith0]

Also I love how word doesn't copy over AT ALL

[mhsmith0]

Anyone that has me or mastina as a top lynch option for today is just bad at mafia

There's literally no other way around it

This is actually the part that makes it more villagery on spiffeh end. Like, it's conceivable as a scum plan, but if it actually was, is manga ever THAT bothered by it? I mean, the bussing was a thing and all, but at THIS stage, it's just so dumb, especially with manga getting town cred from the flip. Much more natural as discrediting a clear on a townie than doing so against a buddy.

[mhsmith0]

She claimed to have all three inventions about 13 hours before deadline.

Gorkington protect/watch was suggested by mastina literally 7 minutes after Sakura initially suggested it.

I voiced my agreement with mastina about an hour and twenty minutes after that, so about ~11ish hours before deadline.

This also adds credibility.

[mhsmith0]

The 7 minutes part specifically. Like that misplay is so appalling on Sakura part that it's not resonate to anticipate. BEST case for the scum!spiff argument, he was hoping she used the jailkeeper and he trades a no kill for town cred. Of course they're also talking about using protect and watch on same slot which is equally dumb but lol this game basically.

[mhsmith0]

Nahdia wouldn't work because she was sitting on Vecna the entire day and expressed a willingness to lynch me when I was at L-1, then moved back to Vecna after a bunch of town sheeped onto BigYoshiFan. Majiffy was another early vote and one of the slots that helped solidify the wagon on him when I was still the biggest contender for a lynch.

I don't get how you can say "Majiffy and Nahdia are town because scum wouldn't do that" and refuse to accept my argument for "mastina (and myself) are town because scum wouldn't do that"

Voting a certain way to throw people off is way LESS risky than following through on a kill that would definitely be either blocked or watched

So now you have even less of a leg to stand on

There's a big difference.

If you or Mastina are scum, the hood shenanigans can be a massive gambit that can pay off huge if it succeeds in a situation that's already close to lost for scum outside of it.
What I'm saying is town behavior are actions that directly put them in that situation in the first place.

This is actually the counter argument. The ? Is does scum!spiff have the balls to roll the dice like that just because Sakura didn't bother to show up in the hood.

[mhsmith0]

Oh King Spiffeh? After the whining about “It’s not a good look on you” why no direct response to 5507? Are you afraid to address the fact that your stance doesn’t hold up to scrutiny when looking at all the factors other than “Lol, we’re PT Masons”?

Because you made it clear that you won't consider any other opinions.

SAD was absolutely right about you. You arbitrarily select people to scum read and tunnel them into oblivion without ever reconsidering. You being right about Vecna has amplified this behavior to the point where you feel the need to insult my play just because I disagree with you.

I'm not gonna bother responding to your post and clog up the thread when you have no chance of actually considering it.

If this is scum-scum, it's pretty convincing stuff.

[mhsmith0]

Also hey look at what I found Anti saying behind closed doors about game balance in a 17-player large theme!

BASIC BALANCE 101
if molla's role is indeed scum, there HAS to be a fucking hidden town powder keg
cops
watchers
bombs
jailkeepers
s
as in, fucking plural because HOLY FUCK THE SCUM GENERAL COUNTERS ARE JUICED
given the flips so far, how likely do you think that is?

bbmolla and pine's roles both existing as scum is very very difficult for me to accept w/ the available information rn, especially knowing that firebringer is actually a competent game designer
if a lot of juiced PR claims start pouring in, i may have second thoughts but if the stream of VTs continue (like i suspect it will) i think bbmolla's role is very likely town
the whole gambit theory is a little far fetched to begin with anyway

no

like the 4-13 ratio, the 3-14 ratio is also VERY inherently scumsided. i think the town ev's are something like 15 and 20 for those respectively

I mean they don't have a lot of meaning since I don't know how much each town/scum PR affects the EV.

i don't know the exact point system either but it's a rough guide for how much power you need to get to 50 50 odds

an approximation for minis is the number of decent PRs needed = number of scum (assuming an all goon team)

BUT the relation is nonlinear.

the bigger the game the more town power you need.

(The last one in particular.)

Also these.

2-shot vanillaizer
goon
goon
goon

2-shot vig
investigative joat
manipulative joat
jk
[neighborizing inventor]
9 vt

egregiously scumsided
there's just no two ways about it. you're starting off w a mountainous town ev of ~15% AND you're giving scum a PR. that means 6 DECENT town PRs.

2-shot vanillaizer
manipulative joat
Goon

2-shot vig
investigative joat
jk
10vt
[neighborizing inventor]

in a mini, the rule of thumb is 3 decent prs against an all-goon team. adding PRs to scum means another decent town power. so 2 scum PRs means 5 decent town powers

even assuming rogue leader would be town (which they couldn't have known pregame), there's not enough town power.

2-shot vanillaizer
[modified] strongman / rolecop
Goon

2-shot vig
investigative joat
manipulative joat
jk
10vt
[neighborizing inventor]

now this is more like it.

scum have the general counter + the strongman to get around the dual protectives. OR they have the 1-2 punch of the rolecop and vanillaizer. the rolecop sees who needs to be vanillaized.

2-shot vanillaizer
[modified] strongman / rolecop
Goon

2-shot vig
investigative joat
manipulative joat
jk
10vt
[neighborizing inventor]

now this is more like it.

scum have the general counter + the strongman to get around the dual protectives. OR they have the 1-2 punch of the rolecop and vanillaizer. the rolecop sees who needs to be vanillaized.

see, when i say i know what i'm talking about

i do

2-shot vanillaizer
goon or x-shot rolecop
Goon
[factional joat - bp/strongman/ninja]

2-shot vig
investigative joat
manipulative joat
jk
10vt
[neighborizing inventor]

^that's it^
you got a bp to counter the vig / strongman to counter molla+aj / ninja to counter drunken piper
maybe fire gave scum a rolecop / some other investigative maybe he didn't, but even if he didn't THIS setup is balanced

That, just from the one game. You can find Antihero's stances in MD as well, and I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find him giving relevant stats on other games, too. It's just that Star Wars was a game with literally the EXACT same fucking number of players in the game with the EXACT same number of scum in the game. And that makes it an

incredibly

relevant source for THIS game, because Antihero's stances from that game can be used to accurately map out what he himself as a moderator would be doing.

Antihero knows the power of town roles.
He knows the power of scum roles.
He knows the fucking power of the scum's nightkill.
So in this game.

He is not going to give the scum an abundance of power. Which is why thinking so much as the tracker to be scum is a stretch. (The more I read, the more I'm convinced it's town since giving the scum an investigative is arguably

too

much.)

I mean.
If you get at least two non-inventor claims.
You can reconsider this stance.
But until such a time, I am considering all the inventors to be town.

[mhsmith0]

In partuclar

2-shot vanillaizer
goon
goon
goon

2-shot vig
investigative joat
manipulative joat
jk
[neighborizing inventor]
9 vt

egregiously scumsided

there's just no two ways about it. you're starting off w a mountainous town ev of ~15% AND you're giving scum a PR. that means 6 DECENT town PRs.

Here scum have three solid PRs flipped. And here the town PRs are for the most part NOT that strong (anti thinks tracker sucks, and in a game with a lot of shit flowing around it's easy to get fake guilties, watcher-immune with watcher inventor can get fake guilties, rolecop and jailkeeper help whichever faction gets them, etc.). So yeah, all town inventors I think dovetails w his balance sense.

[mhsmith0]

I'd also say it's pretty disgusting the backup inventors didn't just claim on day 3 when it'd have been somewhat clearing (and creature holstering his claim u tip after mastina death that x100) but that's also water under the bridge.

[mhsmith0]

Mastina, I don't want to hear your arguments on balance when town has massive neighborhoods and inventors rather than straight up roles. In this situation, neighborhoods make inventors more powerful.

What I do want to hear is why you SR Yoshi but are not voting him according to the latest VC.

At least you kept your posts to one point per post so I could follow.

The hoods part is a fair point tho, there was some potential for coordination (unless anti just randed hoods I guess)

[mhsmith0]

Last night in the neighborhood, Sakura said she received a track and rolecop invention

She asked what I thought she should do and I said I would rolecop Rick and Andrea and Track one of Nahdia/Majiffy

She quoted my suggestions and said "I'm currently doing this" and then she never said anything else

It's pretty disgraceful that after Sakura fuckup n2, and while thinking the hood was all town, mastina and spiff both dumped invention on same slot instead of spreading it around like sensible people.

I suppose this would dovetail w scum!spiff shooting there while he could in order to prevent a night of investigations.

[mhsmith0]

{TheWayItEnds, Vifam}
{Titus, MagnaofIllusion, Spiffeh}
{mastina}
{Creature}
{Majiffy}
{Rick and Andrea, Ankamius}

Can I point out this is almost not even a controversial reads list?

Spiffeh is at the top, feed his ego. Easiest way to pocket him as town.
Magna is townread by almost all too so again not controversial.
Same with Titus.
Mastina placed where she is expected.
Creature and Majiffy could be switched either way and wouldn't have many blinking an eye, but most townread creature more.

Final line is one least controversial.

This is a reads list I would form if I was scum.

I am putting down Nahdia into the null line.
This is pretty much shit.

~Rick

90% of the game has the same reads list.

Show me how the vcs work with Nahdia scum.

Ewwww no.
Never.

The problem is that those reads are shared by everyone.
How do you not get that?

Everyone normally has a read that everyone disagrees with if they are Town.

Look at my reads almost nobody agrees Spiffeh/mastina has to have scum in it.

There's nothing unique about Nahdia's reads.
You don't think it's suspicious they agree with crowd 90%

I also want to point out that Nahdia is a hipster.
They agreeing with crowd is odd.

-Rick

That and surrounding seems like a fine point.

[mhsmith0]

nah fuck it

VOTE: Creature

80% sure it's creature/nahdia rn

Would RC semi bus his goon buddy here and coast on the town cred indefinitely? I kinda think so?

[mhsmith0]

im under the impression the majiffy wagon is larger and i'm down to lynch either but ok homie
VOTE: Rick and Andrea

This was a very lazy vote in that point.

[mhsmith0]

VOTE: Nahdia

Like... this looks more like a bus of a goon early day for town credit than trying to push lynch on a townie?

Of course, a smart n3 shot in that situation with rc-nahdia is to have nahdia shoot TWIE get caught and then RC can coast the rest of the way.

[mhsmith0]

if that's the case then Vifam's replace out goes from weird to ban worthy :\

i'm sick of this. i'm sick of being ragged on because i'm not the very best but i try to be confident in myself and follow my convictions. i'm sick of getting angry with people because they won't acknowledge and engage me on the levels i desire. i'm done, dudes. i'm done with all of it. fuck mafia.

@MOD Replace me.

I mean, the strongest argument for spiff being the scum remains here. Does nahdia strategically replace out after calling out Vifam subout as being banworthy if she's scum? Like that's super disgusting if so...

[mhsmith0]

I have 50 pages to go and unless I see something beyond the repla eout to make me doubt it I'm just gonna hammer vax.

[mhsmith0]

I'm sober enough to start having coherent thoughts abotu this btu I don't want to post here tonight.

Spiffeh is obvtown and I will follow up on their posting today.

I've continually had faith in you to be a strong town player in games that we were in and thanks for pulling through for me.

This resembles RC sucking up to me around the same time...

[mhsmith0]

Vax has also "compromise" hammered way too often for ,y tastes fwiw

[mhsmith0]

W/e. There's some paranoia for minor things on spiff, but it's like 80% vax and there's more reason to suspect vax and believe spiff than other way around.
VOTE: vax
Sorry if wrong but I made a damn good faith effort to read and solve and if I fucked it up then there goes another LYLO I guess.

[mhsmith0]

Now someone please tell me if right or wrong because I don't want to just wait for hours
*nervous*

[mhsmith0]

Part of me is thinking it's just this

[QUOTE=Cory;823456]

hello f3 my old friend
i've come to get you wrong again

[/QUOTE]



But it's my best guess and if that's my limit then that's my limit *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

I mean if it's wrong I really don't know where I went astray. But I think it's right. I hope it's right. Sigh...

[mhsmith0]

Waiting is literally the worst part...

[mhsmith0]

I suppose right or wrong at least I don't have to read this damn game anymore

anyway my biggest regret was ari lynch, I knew that the game state made no sense w scum there. OTOH i had a bunch of town reads and it was hard so *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Since I'm still all alone (which kinda sucks)...

a scum tracker inventor is kind of a troll role given the track-immune flip, and I kinda buy that anti wouldn't want that kind of troll role here (and troll roles can be fairly strong since their presence is generally suggestive of town even if . I also think that the setup if vax is just a goon here is JUST townsided enough compared to how I'd probably set it to match the typical difference between me and anti: specifically, the backup rolecop (or maybe backup jailkeeper) wasn't really needed, but otherwise I'd ok it. People have focused on the guilties from rolecop, but fake guilties via tracker/watcher are super plausible, rolecop can be used by a scum to set up a false 1v1 and move the game a mislynch ahead, roleblocker actions can be theorized about, etc etc etc.

There's a LOT of room for scum to maneuver in a 6 PR setup (most of the PRs aren't super useful, especially when the game is large i.e. early game), and scum get a lot of potential advantage if they ever receive most of these PRs. Watching someone who's hit by a watch-immune is easy, ditto using tracker on track-immune, etc.

And if you get close to LYLO/MYLO with both watch and track immunes unflipped, that's a HUGE potential edge becaues those are non-obvious roles until the first flips, and then you can potentially get town PRs lynched due to paranoia.

So basically I think town should have had just one backup inventor, but otherwise it'd be fine by me balance wise, and anti pretty consistently is friendlier to towns than I am, and the difference is just about equal to one of the backup inventors.

Unless, of course, anti put a lot of weight to hoods being protown (which I disagree on), and/or inventors being much stronger than regular PRs (again I'd disagree, since you don't have stuff like cop or truly powerful investigatives).

[mhsmith0]

I'll also say that if it was spiff here, the spew management by some of the scum was unusually good. Still think likelier than not it's vax but obv not certain, and obv hate not knowing...

[mhsmith0]

Also if it's vax, sincere congrats on making it to LYLO, and you played plenty well enough to win, you just inherited a terrible position.

And if it's spiff, congrats on recovering a very difficult game (also lolsmith if that's the case of course)

[mhsmith0]

I'm legit impressed by spif.

Also i feel like absolute garbage. I abstolutely tried my fucking best and still blew it

[mhsmith0]

Like I legit don't even know what in particular I missed here. I really don't get it.

[mhsmith0]

Like I legit don't even know what in particular I missed here. I really don't get it.

smith

literally N2 or n3 when we killed Gork, we literally said in the thread "at this point we have to make a really big gamble because the game's over anyways.

It was literally the highest risk and apparently highest award situation that scum could have pulled off

It was clearly possible on a theory basis but it seemed unlikely. It relied wholly on sakura completely butchering her PR usage (which i guess did happen so i guess congrats)

[mhsmith0]

@mhsmith0 argh

What did I say right before I died?
Why did Spiffeh argue mechanics were conftowning when he hates it?

There were like a billion things floating around this game. And the vax slot looked fucking AWFUL all game long (and his lylo was tonally crap and his reaction to the creature "scum claim" to shit out a "yay" and then bail looked fake as hell). And interactions w dead scum looked worse for it. And his hammers were all shitty. Like I FUCKING TRIED. I really really fucking did. I'm sorry I got it wrong. But I made an honest effort to sort everyone. I got it wrong, and I accept that. And it feels fucking awful. Really really fucking awful. And I'm SORRY. But I gave this game a SHIT ton of effort. And shit just fucking happens sometimes.

[mhsmith0]

mhsmith don't be hard on yourself, there were a lot of reasons to think I was town at the end, and Vax didn't really do too much to help his case (no offense)

I mean I AM going to be hard on myself. I had the hammer, and I didn't get it right. But it was a fucking hard thing to get right. And I really didn't get much fucking help in the effort.

[mhsmith0]

You also ate a needless hammer by vax, which was obviously something that factored into my read there

[mhsmith0]

I think I need a break from mafia honestly. This game was fucking brutal to keep nestled in my head for literally months and months and months, and to lose it anyway... yeah that completely fucking sucks.

[mhsmith0]

It's just... so fucking brutal. TO TRY. To fucking TRY. and still blow it. Kills me.

[mhsmith0]

Gee thanks that makes me feel better

[mhsmith0]

hello f3 my old friend
i've come to get you wrong again

[mhsmith0]

As a whole town's reads we're pretty bad overall

I was so mad that Day's 1 and 2 town miraculously settled on two scum after being all over the place the rest of those Days

And towards the end there were no "obvtown" players left which is what allowed me to skip through the cracks

Day one was appalling. Beeboy was like the easiest scumread in the game. Manga was also fairly wolfy specially early. But w/e, the rest of my reads were clearly garbage and I had hindsight for beeboy.

[mhsmith0]

I don't think it really matters which makes the kill. A scum lynch day 3 means just one left, and with a jk, backup jk, watcher etc it's in the bag even with the troll scum role.

[mhsmith0]

But I don't really have the right to complain since I fucked up plenty too.

At least the loss is to a stacked scumteam (RC, vecna, spiffeh 3/4 very solid scum players at the least, I don't know gin well enough to really comment there).

[mhsmith0]

I also thought that vax' anger at spiff was more natural for scum who'd actually TRIED to make it though to the end and despite all that was losing to a lazy lurksack who'd kinda checked out, whereas town would be more frustrated w self in that spot (I know I was). Obv that was wrong tho *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

But what surprises me is didnt someone mention that spiffeh lurks as scum and.... that's kinda what he did after RC was lynched?

Yeah someone mentioned it... but there were like a billion things talked about. Really really hard to sift through the junk and the good.

[mhsmith0]

Dunno if it was me i'd have lynched the heck out of spiffeh regardless of his alignment after that hard defense of RC after the guilty.
But maybe i'm old styled.

I was thinking about it then tbh. But then things moved away from it and I was having second thoughts, and then the moment was gone

[mhsmith0]

I'd disagree (duh). Scum have a shit ton of options provided that their PRs don't actually die immediately, and with all the town actions floating around false semi guilties are pretty easy to come by.

The biggest thing scum needed was to kill watch inventor early, or at least before watch immune died. Failing to do so made it more difficult, but as seen, not impossible. Losing watch immune and strongman by day two SHOULD make it really hard to win, which isn't. a balance issue. Scum also had the option to make it nightless for as long as the tracker inventor lived, which means that towns power in late game was somewhat limited.

Were it goon as last scum, it'd be more townsided than I'd like. But scum have a very villagery looking PR, and a lot of night options, even more so if they receive PRs. So no I wouldn't say townsided.

[mhsmith0]

Oh cool we won!

A lot of arguing in the scum chat I'm guessing?

BTW whoa, only my slot was town in the PT?

I'd also say this in partuclar, hard town reading that reaction is epitome of the TMI problem. This is completely fakeable, all the more so for someone who might be in a desperate position. It wasn't and I was wrong and lolsmith and all, but it's silly to call this an obvtown reaction.

[mhsmith0]

So if I'd jailed someone else and watched you, town wins. Lolsmith, sigh...

[mhsmith0]

who cares tho?

Some losers with no life so they focus on internet shit.

[mhsmith0]

Btw if anyone has useful advice for me ("don't be wrong" obv not super helpful), I'd appreciate it. I tried, failed, and at least would like to learn SOMETHING from it

[mhsmith0]

Btw, I'd also note that this was ANOTHER game showing the pro scum power of neighborhoods. Magna and spiffed hard pocketed their hoods, and shenanigans with spiffeh gave him the cred he desperately needed.

Hoods can be fun. But they are CONSISTENTLY proscum. The fantasy of "town sharing info and working together in the hood" never really plays out, while the reality of "scum make maximal use of hoods to their advantage" continues to play out.

Town should have won. There were chances and we blew it. Fine. But anyone claiming this was townsided, with a 5/4 PR split, and hoods, and scum power flagrantly countering town power AND a troll role for scum, is simply wrong.

[mhsmith0]

Clearly you have t seen my scum game

[mhsmith0]

^
Haven't

[mhsmith0]

Meh. I think I'm above site average as town, but this is a good example of my limits. I can't make people care, I can't force people to make content, I really don't like "ok tell us what to do" mode, and sometimes I just get stuff wrong.