Open 694: Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[ConnorJC]

@wave do you have any reads that aren't based on the premise that Sun is scum?

Can we get more pressure on bombcat btw

Pedit: There's 3 masons in the game, so there actually are 3 town players that know each other to be town.
Also, maybe people are criticizing your reads now because you actually fucking posted them instead of refusing to give analysis like the first 10 pages of the game.

[GameNBurger]

This sun lynch is feeling really,

really

good at this point. There have been lots of votes in this game and not one has gotten this much pushback. Like, game, flubber, connor, why are you so concerned about Sun's well-being? Flubber in particular, you're going WAY more in-depth and putting in WAY more effort to discredit my read on Sun than anything you've done this whole game. Like, if you three are town, you don't really know for a fact that Sun is town, do you? Why fight so hard? I'm free to scumread him if I so please. If you think the real scum is Trans then go argue for that rather than ganging up on me.

Like, it is actually so telling that after one read onto Sun I am suddenly public enemy number one. Lynching correctly on day one is so difficult for this very reason. If I just helped along the trans or echo wagons nobody would look twice at me. Hell, I had a vote on connor this whole game and nobody gave half a flying fuck about it lmao. (That's kind of improving his image in my eyes.) Then suddenly I switch onto sun and, holy shit, here comes the cavalry. Like, me helping you guys kill Trans or Echo, and nobody really saying much about it, and everyone just kind of going along with it? That reeks of Town vs. Town. But this? This is the real shit. There is scum at work here to derail this wagon and it's so obvious. I just hope I live long enough now to laugh about it.

PEdit: ^ oh wow what is thiiiiis. "grossly misreading" "misdirect" "terrible vibes" sweet jesus this is the motherload of newbscum. Word of advice, brother, that was a purely innocent post and I was just explaining my playstyle. You're trying

way

too hard to throw shade there.

To address your pedit first: no, I just don't like it when people respond to something I am talking about dorectly with a tangential subject. Why is my post newbscum? Other than using specific language, how is what I'm saying scummy? Please be clear and tell me directly.

Also I basically just stepped into this game as an actual player, you can see a progression of my thoughts on Sun, I think in the end he's town. I can't speak for other but from what I see is people pushing you, not your vote. Also what are you even on about grouping us three together and that if we think we're all town that we should look at sun as possibly being scum? What are you trying to imply here?

[GameNBurger]

Pedit: There's 3 masons in the game, so there actually are 3 town players that know each other to be town.
Also, maybe people are criticizing your reads now because you actually fucking posted them instead of refusing to give analysis like the first 10 pages of the game.

^^^^His last sentence says it better than I could ever hope to.

Also in case you're not clear I'm more criticizing your vote on sun as an identical wagon in response to me upping the Trans vote. I thought It seemed awfully convenient, it's not that I think a vote on sun is particularly scummy, there's like 3 other people to go around to accuse of scum if that were the case. Just for clarity's sake, as I probably wasn't being clear enough into exactly what I was criticizing you for.

[wavemode]

Pedit: There's 3 masons in the game, so there actually are 3 town players that know each other to be town.
Also, maybe people are criticizing your reads now because you actually fucking posted them instead of refusing to give analysis like the first 10 pages of the game.

No, that mason shit doesn't fly. You can know someone is town and still recognize that people have legitimate cases against them. That's not a situation where you turn around and blindly scumread the person attacking your partner, that's a situation where you calmly present a better case for who you believe the real scum is.

And no, I'm not talking about this in a myopic sense. I'm considering the game as a whole, and my experience in Mafia in general. When you're right, it strikes a nerve. I hadn't really seen any nerves struck this whole game, until now my one post suddenly raised an army to attack not just my post, but my playstyle and everything about me. Recognize here that I don't feel good about this Sun lynch simply because people disagree with it. I feel good about this Sun lynch because people disagree with EVERYTHING I've done now. Suddenly people are scrutinizing my questions, and my posting habits, and my reads, and my past statements, and my "grossly misreading" "deflecting" "bad vibes" things. I am now the enemy, and the scum are currently trying to discredit absolutely everything about me. I just don't know yet who among you are actively trying to and who are just the naive town.

@wave do you have any reads that aren't based on the premise that Sun is scum?

Uh, ok. Sesq and Echo in general have really played more of the observer role than active participator. They aren't really playing like they want to help the town progress anywhere. But, I mean, those reads are obvious... everyone has said these things. But yeah, those are the best I have.

[wavemode]

there's like 3 other people to go around to accuse of scum if that were the case

Dude, do you even realize what you're saying... those other people are Trans and Echo. The people you and Flubber and Sun want dead! So, thanks for agreeing with me?

[ConnorJC]

No, that mason shit doesn't fly. You can know someone is town and still recognize that people have legitimate cases against them. That's not a situation where you turn around and blindly scumread the person attacking your partner, that's a situation where you calmly present a better case for who you believe the real scum is.

1. I didn't claim mason, I'm not claiming mason, simply pointing out that you're wrong when you say that it's impossible for townies to know that Sun is town.
2. I'm not blindly scumreading you (and I don't think others are either), as a matter of fact I'm TOWNreading you right now.

And no, I'm not talking about this in a myopic sense. I'm considering the game as a whole, and my experience in Mafia in general. When you're right, it strikes a nerve. I hadn't really seen any nerves struck this whole game, until now my one post suddenly raised an army to attack not just my post, but my playstyle and everything about me. Recognize here that I don't feel good about this Sun lynch simply because people disagree with it. I feel good about this Sun lynch because people disagree with EVERYTHING I've done now. Suddenly people are scrutinizing my questions, and my posting habits, and my reads, and my past statements, and my "grossly misreading" "deflecting" "bad vibes" things. I am now the enemy, and the scum are currently trying to discredit absolutely everything about me. I just don't know yet who among you are actively trying to and who are just the naive town.

This still completely ignores the fact that

without reads nobody can criticize your reads or play

.
Also, 90% of my recent interactions with you are questioning your Transcend read, nothing about defending Sun.

Seriously though, I'd try to figure out reads on people that make sense outside of the Sun is scum realm. Assuming that one person is scum and building the rest of your reads around that basically means the rest of your reads are worthless until Sun dies. Also, it's really really easy to fall into the confbias trap that way.

[wavemode]

To address your pedit first: no, I just don't like it when people respond to something I am talking about dorectly with a tangential subject. Why is my post newbscum? Other than using specific language, how is what I'm saying scummy? Please be clear and tell me directly.

Also I basically just stepped into this game as an actual player, you can see a progression of my thoughts on Sun, I think in the end he's town. I can't speak for other but from what I see is people pushing you, not your vote. Also what are you even on about grouping us three together and that if we think we're all town that we should look at sun as possibly being scum? What are you trying to imply here?

Alright you are asking for a lesson so I will teach you.

It's not about the words themselves, per se, but how you're using them. First of all you're responding to completely non-hostile post with unbridled hostility, always a bad sign. And saying things like "grossly misreading" here just means you're trying to amplify the weight of what you're saying. Why couldn't I have just been misreading your post? Why is it a gross misreading? What does that even mean, and where do you draw the line between gross misreadings and regular misreadings lol. And then you say you want to give me the benefit of the doubt, but then you dont! Come on man, give me the benefit of the doubt. Don't say you want to give me the benefit of the doubt and then not give me the benefit of the doubt. That's just uncool man.

"misdirect" and "terrible vibes" serve similar purposes here. Like, if you have some logical thing to put forth, just say what it is you want to say, in explicit terms. I tried to take away suspicion from me and put it onto Sesq, and that makes you think I'm scummy. There, was that hard? That is how normal people say things.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, you're not really saying this like a human being, sharing their thoughts and arriving at a logical conclusion. You said it like a lawyer makes his final statements in court, with as much brovado as possible so it sounds like you have absolute confidence in the things you're saying, to make what I did sound much worse than it was. In reality, I (may or may not have) misread something you said. But in your post, I'm a fedora-and-trenchcoat-wearing don corleone with a monacle, drinking wine and stroking a cat, laughing maniacally to myself as I INTENTIONALLY MISLEAD THE TOWN with my GROSS MISREADING. MUAHAHAaaa my master plan is coming to fruitionnnn

Also, I'm not saying you three, if you are town, should look at sun as scum. I'm saying you should be looking at Transcend and Echo, your scumreads. Your focus should be on proving that they are scum and getting support for those wagons, not on me and attacking everything I do.

[wavemode]

Assuming that one person is scum and building the rest of your reads around that basically means the rest of your reads are worthless until Sun dies.

Yes. Exactly. Everything we do here is worthless until someone dies. I could scumread whoever I want but until they're dead, we don't know for sure, do we?

Like, I'm perplexed by this way of thinking you have, that I should just dance around and point fingers at a bunch of people, cast the net wide and go the path of least resistance. We've got to lynch somebody. ONE somebody. And right now I think that somebody should be Sun. I don't pretend to know for a fact who is scum here or who is town but I've got a damn good read and I think it's our best shot. If I'm wrong I will re-assess (or get lynched. who knows ) but we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

[Transcend]

tldr this

[GameNBurger]

To address your pedit first: no, I just don't like it when people respond to something I am talking about dorectly with a tangential subject. Why is my post newbscum? Other than using specific language, how is what I'm saying scummy? Please be clear and tell me directly.

Also I basically just stepped into this game as an actual player, you can see a progression of my thoughts on Sun, I think in the end he's town. I can't speak for other but from what I see is people pushing you, not your vote. Also what are you even on about grouping us three together and that if we think we're all town that we should look at sun as possibly being scum? What are you trying to imply here?

Alright you are asking for a lesson so I will teach you.

It's not about the words themselves, per se, but how you're using them. First of all you're responding to completely non-hostile post with unbridled hostility, always a bad sign. And saying things like "grossly misreading" here just means you're trying to amplify the weight of what you're saying. Why couldn't I have just been misreading your post? Why is it a gross misreading? What does that even mean, and where do you draw the line between gross misreadings and regular misreadings lol. And then you say you want to give me the benefit of the doubt, but then you dont! Come on man, give me the benefit of the doubt. Don't say you want to give me the benefit of the doubt and then not give me the benefit of the doubt. That's just uncool man.

"misdirect" and "terrible vibes" serve similar purposes here. Like, if you have some logical thing to put forth, just say what it is you want to say, in explicit terms. I tried to take away suspicion from me and put it onto Sesq, and that makes you think I'm scummy. There, was that hard? That is how normal people say things.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is, you're not really saying this like a human being, sharing their thoughts and arriving at a logical conclusion. You said it like a lawyer makes his final statements in court, with as much brovado as possible so it sounds like you have absolute confidence in the things you're saying, to make what I did sound much worse than it was. In reality, I (may or may not have) misread something you said. But in your post, I'm a fedora-and-trenchcoat-wearing don corleone with a monacle, drinking wine and stroking a cat, laughing maniacally to myself as I INTENTIONALLY MISLEAD THE TOWN with my GROSS MISREADING. MUAHAHAaaa my master plan is coming to fruitionnnn

Also, I'm not saying you three, if you are town, should look at sun as scum. I'm saying you should be looking at Transcend and Echo, your scumreads. Your focus should be on proving that they are scum and getting support for those wagons, not on me and attacking everything I do.

Well this has a lot of clarity in it

I think if you check out my previous games you'll see I dip into the more verbose side of things, so no "sounding like a lawyer isn't scummy. I talk clearly and everyone understands me, I'm sorry that adverbs read scummy (although they generally are misused so maybe I should reconsider whenever I use one)

You're reading a lot in to my post than there is and frankly I never accused you of being a mustache twirling villain, I'm just questiongin your logic and calling out dodgy responses as well as trying to clarify what you're saying. Yes I'm very gruff but as explained in previous game, I have a good play style reason for being so.if you're too lazy to go back and check (which is understandable honestly) I just don't see a reason to be nice as town, I don't like to allow for an inch of buddying, nor arm scum with claims ofbuddying to use against me. So chances are I will respond to everything with a bit of edge, and if you disagree with that fair enough

Besides I type of flow of consciousness so learn to recognize some differences in speech

But atleast thank you for clearing up what was your problem

Also returning perceived hostility by being condescending in the first line means you're a rude townie bad at conflict resolution or scum trying to piss people off to draw spotlights elsewhere, so do try to diffuse hostility with kindness (or without condescension)

[GameNBurger]

Assuming that one person is scum and building the rest of your reads around that basically means the rest of your reads are worthless until Sun dies.

Yes. Exactly. Everything we do here is worthless until someone dies. I could scumread whoever I want but until they're dead, we don't know for sure, do we?

Like, I'm perplexed by this way of thinking you have, that I should just dance around and point fingers at a bunch of people, cast the net wide and go the path of least resistance. We've got to lynch somebody. ONE somebody. And right now I think that somebody should be Sun. I don't pretend to know for a fact who is scum here or who is town but I've got a damn good read and I think it's our best shot. If I'm wrong I will re-assess (or get lynched. who knows ) but we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

Wave does have a point here, you're basically asking a second pair of reads from him, if he really believes sun is the scum of all scum then just going "well what if he's not " on day 1 can't possibly result in anything

[GameNBurger]

there's like 3 other people to go around to accuse of scum if that were the case

Dude, do you even realize what you're saying... those other people are Trans and Echo. The people you and Flubber and Sun want dead! So, thanks for agreeing with me?

Except that's now why I'm scumreading them?

Stop taking my posts for a walk, what I write is the end of what I write, I get there is a responsibility of the author to show clarity of communication but you can't take the ideas of a text, expound upon them, and then reatribute those expounded ideas to the original author of the text. Your walking my posts farther than I ever took them.

[Flubbernugget]

324 is such a massive overreaction jfc

[Flubbernugget]

tldr this

Lynch wave

[Flubbernugget]

Dude has an "army" of two votes against him and he's freaking out

[Raya36]

you're reaching

You believe Raya is town? How do you feel about her play thus far?

Idk who Raya is or what they've done so idrk I'll look back soon

Ummm? You kinda just responded to a post about me a page back and you don't know who I am???

yeah i associate names to pictures and I didn't know your picture so I didn't know you. plus I don't look at who posted whatever is quoted (usually), I just kinda assume and try to remember myself who posted it

Not really the best strategy but alright.

I'm not too sure about his fluidity with Connor, he votes him and then less than 15 posts later he just kinda agrees that somebody was right on Connor so he unvotes.

If connor flips scum I'm okay with looking at this as a potential scum buddy. Would make sense if he voted it as an excuse "nah I sus'd him at one point I can't be his buddy"

If the lynch went through then he looks good because he was on the wagon, when the wagon started loosing steam he was like yeah i don't have to be here and dipped

I see where you're getting this from. I didn't really explain myself a whole lot since it was mostly just a pressure vote and I liked the outcome. I didn't particularly like his play and there was already a wagon building up on him which is why I chose him for the pressure vote. More votes = More pressure. He started sounding townier after the wagon built up and when it was pointed out I looked over his posts and decided to unvote because I liked what I was seeing.
(I'm a she btw)

Okay I understand pressure voting, that's what 90% of my D1 votes are. Would say you're off the hook, but that's a very simple scapegoat as you mentioned later in this post, which actually was referring to me iirc lol. Also, I apologize for referring to you as a male lmao. It goes along with the picture and shit, wasn't completely sure who you were so I didn't associate anything to your slot other than a name.

Yeah, I don't expect to be off the hook for explaining a pressure vote. (Also my profile picture is of a girl)

okay i think i did that right? responses are in bold if I didn't

Umm, yeah, that's a quote mess that I can't fix. My posts are the outside quote box although it says you posted them.



Sorry about my inactivity lately. I've been busy with work and stuff the past few days but as soon as I can I'll reread and come up with some sort of readslist.

[wavemode]

Dude has an "army" of two votes against him and he's freaking out

Mm, "freaking out" is kind of the wrong characterization here (also, that's kind of juvenile shade to throw). More like, emboldened. I can smell the blood of scum, crying out against the lynch.

I actually very much doubt you guys will gather enough votes to lynch me here. Your cases are nitpicky and opportunistic, and I don't think we're playing with lots of newbies at the moment. And even if you do lynch me, when I flip town all will come to light sooo... you're fucked. Whoever "you" is. Still not sure of Sun's partners tbh. Game looks very good for it but so do you and Sesq.

[Transcend]

uaghuaghughh

i think wave's town

wave who do you think is mafia besides sun

[Flubbernugget]

He already gave his whole reads list

That's part of the problem

[ConnorJC]

Yes. Exactly. Everything we do here is worthless until someone dies. I could scumread whoever I want but until they're dead, we don't know for sure, do we?

Like, I'm perplexed by this way of thinking you have, that I should just dance around and point fingers at a bunch of people, cast the net wide and go the path of least resistance. We've got to lynch somebody. ONE somebody. And right now I think that somebody should be Sun. I don't pretend to know for a fact who is scum here or who is town but I've got a damn good read and I think it's our best shot. If I'm wrong I will re-assess (or get lynched. who knows ) but we will cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

NO NO NO, it's not worthless. Look, I'm sure you're confident of your read on Sun, that's great. But here's the thing - even the best mafia players get reads wrong. So that's why it's important to evaluate a lot of people, so that your entire worldview isn't driven by one read.
Your Sun read works now that there's a wagon on Sun. But what happens when somebody else gets wagoned? What if I got wagoned? Would you vote me based on your assumption that I am scum because I'm "defending" your scum read? You NEED to read other players too so you can evaluate each player without it being based on your potentially incorrect worldview.

Mm, "freaking out" is kind of the wrong characterization here (also, that's kind of juvenile shade to throw). More like, emboldened. I can smell the blood of scum, crying out against the lynch.

What, so you expect the town to just stand by while you lead a potential misslynch? The scum aren't crying out, you're just turning normal opposition to a lynch into scum via confirmation bias.

[Flubbernugget]

Dude has an "army" of two votes against him and he's freaking out

Mm, "freaking out" is kind of the wrong characterization here (also, that's kind of juvenile shade to throw). More like, emboldened. I can smell the blood of scum, crying out against the lynch.

I actually very much doubt you guys will gather enough votes to lynch me here. Your cases are nitpicky and opportunistic, and I don't think we're playing with lots of newbies at the moment. And even if you do lynch me, when I flip town all will come to light sooo... you're fucked. Whoever "you" is. Still not sure of Sun's partners tbh. Game looks very good for it but so do you and Sesq.

So you're not freaking out, you're just freaking out with prettier words

If we're not going to get enough votes to lynch you then you're by your own admission wasting time addressing the cases on you

[Flubbernugget]

Connor,

What town reasons does wave have to base his reads around 1 person?

Not talking good/bad reasons, just genuine ones.

[ConnorJC]

Connor,

What town reasons does wave have to base his reads around 1 person?

Not talking good/bad reasons, just genuine ones.

I just think it's a mistake, bad play. I did the same thing in my newbie game, created a world in my head based on one or two reads.
Also, it seems more town than scum because wave is really pushing the Sun is scum theory. I feel like scum wouldn't do this, as if Sun flips town then wave will have a hard time convincing town of anything tomorrow, and also will be a potential lynch. It's that unrestrained commitment to his read that makes me think he's town, as I feel like scum would try to keep their distance so they don't look bad the next day.

[Sesq]

wave was pansyfooting around before told against it by me

Hm? When did you tell me to stop pansyfooting? Or, what are you referring to here

i think it was in contrast with transcend, who was actually doing stuff

you're really dodgy with the answer about all your reads being based on sun or not

convince me on sun wagon. currently im at "hes an oldie who doesnt know what new meta is so hes going off old meta and thats not working well" and thats town probably

[jjh927]

Connor, why did you ask for more pressure on Bomb without moving your vote to him