Mini Normal 1920 (Game Over)

[GreyICE]

Really? Because FF pushing to lynch MMM without a claim and then immediately shutting up/backing down with minimal wagon organizing was one of the things that triggered my "this is a bus" sensors that lead directly to the investigation.

Where was this?

Are you wishing you read the gamethread better?

Because man, if I was going to argue that a cop guilty was due to "shenanigans" especially from someone I'm claiming to be sure is town then I'd want to read really,

really

hard. Not like "quick skim", like "read their entire ISO with a fine-tooth comb". Because man, if a townie tells me they have a conditional guilty on someone, like tracking that person to the nightkill, and I want to call them town then I'd really fucking hope I'd have read the goddamn thread enough to be able to cite everything they posted in it, from memory, at the drop of a hat.

[GreyICE]

If I was scum I'd be damn sure to be as careful as hell, I agree.

But nah, I'm taking the contrarian view, the less popular view, and sticking my neck out there as scum, and being lazy about it. Got it.

Well that's a convincing argument as to how you're not scum. But lets run with it. Out of curiosity, suppose there was a player who had made all of four posts in a game, which were quite scummy. And then he flaked. His replacement replaced in and didn't post a single game-relevant thing over the course of day 2. We then lynched a cop guilty day 3 while this player contributed nothing of value. The guilty flipped scum, giving us two dead scum going into day 4.

Now approximately speaking, what are the odds of our hypothetical sir-lurksalot surviving through LyLo? Roughly speaking? Just toss a number out there, what's the odds that no one lynches the lowest, worst-content slot in the entire game when the town has lynches to spare?

Tell me why arona is town. Because he's riding your coattails to an FF lynch? Because he's putting in no effort in sorting massive? Because he's sat there and vote parked all game?

My coattails are a note from the moderator in my inbox. Nothing on the planet can ever and will ever change that, short of Mastina flipping him. He is a cop-guilty, and if you think I'm town you should vote for him immediately. Or claim I'm scum and try to lynch me, I accept no other options.

But since you're here and talking, do tell me about FF, your 'confirmed townie based on reads'. Specifically, vote parking. I do wish to know about vote parking, and why you think it's scummy.

[GreyICE]

Mastina/Nancy: What are the rules on dueling roleblockers or roleblocker/jailkeeper interactions for this game? Are we following NAR, or are roleblockers immune to being roleblocked?

<<< Answered in 1928. >>>

[GreyICE]

Aka, player A is a Jailkeeper (No modifiers, normal rules). Player B is a roleblocker, no modifiers, normal rules:

Player A submits: jailkeep player B
Player B submits: roleblock player C

Is player C roleblocked?

<<< Answered in 1933. >>>

[GreyICE]

Mastina/Nancy: What are the rules on dueling roleblockers or roleblocker/jailkeeper interactions for this game? Are we following NAR, or are roleblockers immune to being roleblocked?

Normal Games have specific natural action resolution which this game follows. So in the case of a jailkeeper vs. roleblocker, roleblocker > jailkeeper.

In light of the fact my action resolved, and that a roleblocked roleblocker would NOT block me, does any townie - like, say, Mulch - have something to claim that might shed some light on this?

[GreyICE]

Also because if there is a town jailkeeper and we're down to one scum, we can clear at least two townies if we coordinate. Guaranteed. A block of 3 cleared townies is unwinnable for the scumteam here

[GreyICE]

How many people pointed out there was no reason to make the play I did yesterday. Grey wants everyone to look at the most likely scenario but ignores all the easy ones that explain my play.

I mean yes, that's how mafia is supposed to work. I get a read on you, you deflect. I try to build a wagon, you dissemble. You shoot me at night. You explain things away.

I like to think that was I a VT and were I trying my hardest, I could have gotten you lynched day 1. Although I might have swung it onto MMM rather than let others push that lynch. But I'm not a VT, and thus I don't need to explain your play, to build a case, to try my damnedest. All I have to do is tell people what's in my inbox. This is the drawback of PR fests.

I happen to think this setup is crap too, for the record, because I'd have rather locked horns with you a different way. I play to win, not to win elegantly.

[GreyICE]

Sorry, but no. On the off-chance you truly are town, I'd do everything all over again the exact same way. Well maybe not counterclaim Uzi, I did not realize that two full cops was a sane possibility in a mini normal because for christ's sake that's an unbalanced game, even with some piddly modifiers. Then again if he claimed outright I might have breadcrumbed and let it fly.

You never play for the corner cases. If someone investigates guilty day 2, you lynch them. This doesn't get changed if they're accidentally a miller (which is why ReplacedIn clenched up when he claimed day 2), or if there's the possibility of a framer, or whatever. There's a signature about Nacho that he plays this game like a religious conservative. It's accurate, it's also a good way to play. All negative WIFOM comes from over-considering corner cases. The most simple explanation is almost always the correct one.

Which is also why I think the scum roleblocker was themselves roleblocked last night, by the by. A town jailkeeper to match a scum roleblocker is the simplest explanation. Because even with my opinion of the mini normal review committee there's no way in christ this got past them without some scum power.

[GreyICE]

I'll agree if there's a town jailkeeper they should out. But not a town rolestopper.

Macho and ascetic would point to at least one of those roles existing, with the presence of a scum blocker to prevent follow the cop.

Town rolestopper is such a high level of negative utility that I would hope that such a player would no-action every single night.

[GreyICE]

I mean maybe it interacts with my role to stop scum from RBing me... but this is just bad and the review committee should feel bad.

[GreyICE]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, god this is an awful setup if that's true.

Mass-claim time, we'll be able to work it out from there.

I nearly went into a long rant about it.

But then I sighed and considered what I already know. And sighed again.

Maybe I should just play on Town of Salem.

[GreyICE]

Like... Weak Doctor might be the worst scum fakeclaim in the history of the universe. You'd have fakeclaimed a role that guarantees you die before any other town PRs, you do so clearing yet another townie, you do so with a role that guarantees you die before LyLo and get lynched if you don't. To do so under the pressure of "the guy who self-voted three posts ago" would be inane. If Arona really thought that one up himself, then... gosh, I don't know what to say.

On the other hand if he claimed his actual role, then gosh... this is a very bad setup. I think I'll name it "follow the cop 2: electric boogaloo" for all the scumhunting we're doing.

[GreyICE]

did i claim?

Nope, go for it.

[GreyICE]

I nearly went into a long rant about it.

But then I sighed and considered what I already know. And sighed again.

Maybe I should just play on Town of Salem.

Yeah, I've typed up rants about the NRG a few times re; the setups they were letting past and the direction I dislike it going but then deleted it and decided it's not worth the hassle since a) I rarely play here nowadays anyway and b) I don't think anything would be done about it.

But suffice it to say I don't think anything is 'impossible' to come up in games like this.

Where do you play out of curiosity? Because good god I don't really have words for this shit.

[GreyICE]

Weak doctor is only very slightly worse than full cop, because clearing a townie and finding a guilty is all you can ask out of most cops, and a weak can easily do that at the cost of a lynch (and not even if someone blocks a kill). I'd consider it about the level of 2-shot Cop.

I dunno, I can see Mastina coming in here and saying "this is why you don't try to outguess the mod" but fuck that. I should be able to guess your setup isn't ass, go run your "everyone is a cop kappa" meme game in the theme queue. Or better, don't.

Anyway, yeah, it's time for everyone to claim.

[GreyICE]

Like what about the wifom? they rb grey and he's like "oh lol didn't get a result again" and we're stuck wondering if grey is even telling the truth and can't figure out if we should believe his results

And this is why I targeted iDany, my choice for "townie who might get mislynched, but who if I get back a 'No Result' I'm confident enough in my read to ignore it".

I still don't believe I wasn't roleblocked by a scum roleblocker if one exists, because without a town jailkeeper then there's no way anything I did should resolve.

And oh god are we going to spend two game phases discussing power roles in a normal game? Fuck this fucking setup in its fucking arse.

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE, the site I play occasionally at would rather me not mention their name here I think, they're not a fan of MS players in general. I also don't play anywhere near as much as I used to, just a game every few months or so on average and I find myself questioning why I even do that at times.

fds?

Anyway, I'm not doing anything until we've got mass claim done, this game is such a pile of shit.

[GreyICE]

Okay, ReplacedIn?

Stop it.

We are lynching FormerFish today, I am not playing another random duck hunt with you. He dies today. This is a 100% thing, I don't care about your bloody reads. You read MMM as one of the most townie players in the game. Now get. over. it. I'm sure other players are playing much worse. Frankly, everyone who isn't me is playing much worse, and I wish to god he was on my team because it would make this game so much simpler. But he is scum, and I am town, and this is how it goes.

[GreyICE]

Take every piece of respect or loyalty or just sheer "what the fuck, how did he read that" you've ever experienced with me. Now let me assure you. He was my second strongest scumread day 1, and that's not a coincidence.

Feel free to discard every bit of it if I'm wrong, I don't care. I don't play to have laurels or do the right thing, I play to win, and this is the play.

[GreyICE]

You do you, I don't expect you to vote anywhere else today. I can understand and acknowledge your stance in that regard.

But at least let me do me for now and if I get around to him being the best lynch today then I'll vote him later.

In the meantime I'm going to focus on narrowing down the potential scum teams and worlds and what I've read so far is pointing towards Massive being the play.

You're doing relationship analysis when all you need to be doing is sorting out the obvious. We aren't going to play six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Why do you even think Massive and MMM were scum together? How does that make sense? Scum don't do what those two did. Not unless they flat forgot they were scum together, and while massive is many things he's not that derpy (MMM might be, but hey).

[GreyICE]

@GreyICE - I think you'll agree with me that Eeve-FF aren't particularly likely; so assuming Mulch/Arona/iDanny are all town (which imo is the case) who do you plausibly see FF as partners with here at the moment? If the answer is as simple as "One of Massive

/Frogger

" which is what I'm at then we've almost certainly won.

Except that FF talks his way out of that, then kills me, you derp around trying to sort out which bad player we lynch, and he rides this home.

Remember, I'm married to someone who once went into LyLo with 3 confirmed town in an open setup and got one of them lynched. Literally confirmed not to have submitted a kill on a night where someone died and only one scum was left. And that person was lynched because "oh yeah you're playing so poorly you must be scum". This is the sort of crap you get to put up with when scum have shot their way to an ideal town.

That's how we lose this. Not insufficient analysis from someone who is

GUARANTEED NOT TO DIE

. Like seriously we're sitting on two confirmed town and two claimed power roles. Holy fuck why would you ever die ever? Even given it's you, if scum shoot you over a confirmed townie I will do a tapdance of joy. They have no free shots, you can't ever die. Like ever.

[GreyICE]

Although shit that occurs to me. If Arona is telling the truth, then ReplacedIn suddenly is looking an awful lot more like the mafia godfather - since arona survives weak copping him. Which... even trying to figure out the basics of his setup hurts me deep inside, but I feel like it's a thoughtful worth posting.

[GreyICE]

unvote

Want Mulch's info, he's obvtown but let's do it right.

[GreyICE]

We waited all this time for that?

Well whatever.

Vote: FormerFish

Strongly recommend Arona flip a coin tonight, heads protect me, tails investigate whoever he says he wants to, or just pick one.

[GreyICE]

VOTE: formerfish

Heads i target grey
Tails i target replacedin

He claimed Aesctic, that means your action would fail.

[GreyICE]

That leaves me/massive/frogger as your reads?

I mean, and? I've cleared Dany, Arona has cleared me and Mulch, that literally leaves only you/massive/frogger or start to speculate on these PRs.

Lets try, hmmm. From my perspective:

FF/Fro99er
FF/ReplacedIn
FF/Eevee
FF/Massive
FF/Arona

Pretty much in that order. Although I'd think there's a gap between 1 and the rest.

Commuter is a role that fucks up both my role (making him appear scum to me) and Uzi's role (making him appear scum to him). It's the double miller. 2-shot renders that incredibly weird, but whatever this setup.

Now could there be two millers? I mean this setup. But I'm starting to really dislike what you're doing here in a big way. Call me paranoid, yah, you're right.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE is probably going to rant at me and say that these interactions are terrible and that it was imbalanced if he sees both the other two town roles claim though. Personal opinion: interactions are unusual and interesting, and have the potential to be really swingy, but are mostly balanced and if there's any bias at all, it's against the town. (The mafia having a full roleblocker is a bit much in my opinion and it was originally gated but reviewer decision was to bump it from gated to full as a compromise, so.)

I mean the game potentially ended on Day 2 with a town victory if we just lynched the miller claim and the scum didn't block or shoot the right people. I mean to recap, we lynch town D1, get a little lucky with power roles, and the game is unwinnable for scum. That's a bit much. I've been in a 13-player theme game that ended before day 2 began and I think it was less swingy (and broken) than this. You should also consider the power roles went quite badly for the town and we still had a mass of confirmed town for the scum to shoot through, so bad that they had to either take two confirmed town or Regfan+1 confirmed into LyLo. So it was swingy and unbalanced, simply a poor design.

Regfan

remains the best town player on site, bar none. The number of times that he's simply nailed a scumteam is impressive, and he is incredibly hard to argue against. Any town would gain a huge upgrade with him replacing in and this was no exception. I don't know why he think I'd get mad over the tchill lynch, it was kind of MMM>tchill=LMK day 1 for me, but it was all very close, and clearly all 3 dying was pro-town (no offense tchill). I know you wanted the Massive lynch day 3, and clearly from one perspective it was right, but from another FormerFish was much scarier to me as scum than Massive, which I think is worth respecting.

FormerFish:

Sorry dude. If it's any consolation the reason you were investigated night 1 was I legitimately felt you could carry the game for the scumteam if you were scum, and could do a damn good job as town if you were confirmed town. It's not like I was really scared that LMKGuy would be the scum mastermind who lived through LyLo, y'know? You absolutely fell into my philosophy as a cop - investigate someone you wouldn't mind claiming to save if they were town, and legitimately fear if they were scum. Once I got the result, I feel like I had to see it through.

Uzi:

I think you played alright, although you were a bit hyperactive and I don't understand day 2 at all. You've got to put your ego on the back burner sometimes.

Mulch:

Genuinely good play, got shot by scum, and I think you might have been shot eventually even without the clear.

Eevee/idany:

You were both very recognizably town, but I feel like you could elevate your play a bit. Dany, you did some decent analysis, but you tend not to reach out to other players. If you think someone is town try working more with them. You aren't locked into a read, and you need to work together to win. Eevee, I feel like you were just flying on gut most of the time. I think you could benefit from sitting back and reading things more.

tchill:

Sorry dude, you fit a lot of common scum patterns, and that last post was legit from one of your scum games. I feel like you were faking analysis as both scum and town.

GerryOat:

Obviously you played well, you got shot by scum N1 as a VT. Highest compliment you can get.

Arona

: I wish you contributed more, but for a PR it was fine.

[GreyICE]

massive got me pretty good despite me knowing something was off when he asked me why he wasn't able to read me as town this game.

I don't think LMK purposefully lurked. I don't think he's been on site since his last post in this game so I don't think anyone should be credited for scum reading him for the wrong reasons. Felt both the siblings did the best they could with the slot though.

This post was super scumfuck: viewtopic.php?p=9356126#p9356126

Bonus points, look at the two people at the bottom.

[GreyICE]

Oh yeah, I didn't get a chance to interact with you, but I thought you played well.

Obviously I was rooting for you to die, but that wasn't personal.