Mini Normal 1920 (Game Over)

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Hey everyone, should be able to get to this in then next few hours.

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TOWN

Chickadee (MMM)

GreyICE

Gerryoat
Formerfish
---
iDanyboy
aronagrundy
---
massive
Lmkguy

EeveeLution Army

Tchill

SCUM

*Mulch/LUV haven't been placed yet as I've not had time to go through them properly, this may have to wait until tomorrow.

Unvote, Vote: Tchill

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TOWN

I really liked MMM's early thoughts and interactions with Mulch in 113 and 165, was one of the bits of sanity in the thread at the time and the excessive amount of scum reads v town reads in his 228 is something I can relate to given I had the same feeling at that point of time, find a lot of his reads and thoughts there pretty understandable. I also found his outburst in 345 very natural and genuine, how people are reading that and going "cold/calcuated" is pretty mindboggling; same goes for his post-replace out reads list and sheer frustration in 474, there's a particular line in there I don't think

ever

comes from scum. Chicka's posting thus far has been pretty decent too, how this is the leading wagon is just a testament to the state of the site at the moment.

Liked Grey's unvote of MMM in 478 as well as the focus towards LMK in 612 coupled with his reasoning in 625 both are things I can very much agree with. Similarly like the handling of LUV in 697 and 708 where I've seen Grey take advantage of players like LUV by letting them do the dirty work for him as scum in the past. Also like his handling and interaction with FF though I'm far less paranoid there then he is, only thing that's stopping him from being up in the super strong town area is the vote back on Chikadee in 763; the reasoning for moving off LMK is reasonable but how that translates into moving back to the MMM slot over Tchill I don't follow.

Gerrys analysis of Eeves reaction towards Mulch moving off Bomberman to him in 486 is actually very good and like him spotting the same thing I did with Massives MMM vote in 488. The push on LUV and "want to hold some things back" in 507 reads kind of natural combined with 512.

I agree with a lot of FF's reasoning behind scum reading Tchill in 212, most specifically his explanation behind Tchills trateement of Mulch and think his 215 feels like it points against it being a buss attempt which means if Tchill is actually mafia that's a pretty huge point towards FF being town. I don't hate his thoughts and reads shared inside 332 but the transition and confidence move towards MMM over Tchill isn't great, the conviction behind the MMM read and the attempt to actually force it through doesn't feel particularly fake though and it's a move that I'm not quite sure he'd make as scum given the blow-back from it.

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SCUM

Peoples, most notably Greys reasoning for scum reading LMK isn't too bad at all, for the record if he's mafia his 336 kind of has him slipping that Mulch is town, not hugely relevant now but something for people to remember to go back to if either ever flip scum. The lack of real stances and vote placed there feels more like him attempting to not actually make any waves at all which is something fairly typical from newer scum players.

Not a fan of the reasoning Massive used to slip onto MMM in 257, it's very lazy vote without much real deep thought process shown behind it at all and the maintenance of the vote arguing that MMM's "Caught for the wrong reasons" and lack of real thoughts elsewhere feels opportunistic.

Dislike Eeves reaction towards Mulch's vote switch in 184 and the interaction that follows from it is pretty hard to read and him going from listing LMK as a possible scum read in 266 to unvoting him two posts and 6 minutes later is ??? There's actually very little content from him despite his huge post count which isn't a great sign and always find things like 513 to come far more often from S->T interactions.

Tchills interaction with Mulch in the early game is hugely awkward, the question of what she makes of Bomber in 139 to her answering she doesn't know but he's wrong to him voting Bomber in 151 is a really scum motivated progression and one that's really unnatural to come from town. The constant re-stating that Mulch is town without any real deep analysis anywhere there doesn't feel like town thinking about the game but then Mulch dropping to null in 440 with no explained progression is a pretty big scum tell. His stance on day lengths in 443 pretty massively contradicts what he voting LUV for initially in 406 and the explanation that he voted for 'reactions' isn't one that really makes sense there. His reasoning for dropping the town read on LUV and town reading Grey in 721 is pretty ??? too. I really have a lot of trouble seeing a lot of his thought processes coming from town here, they don't really run smoothly at all.

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@Grey, who's town here dude? Why are you voting the MMM slot again? I'd say there's minimum 1 scum inside Tchill/Evee,

possibly

two but there's a few small things that make me think they're not S/S, thoughts on that? Also if you know who I am keep it to yourself, please.

@Dannyboy, talk to me more about your analysis of the MMM wagon; what about FF's vote and push do you like? If you had to pick three people to be town or one person to be mafia and you lose if the option you pick is incorrect what do you select, who and why?

@Massive, what's your current read on Mulch and what's your assessment of Chikadee's posting thus far; has it changed your read on MMM's slot at all?

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Personally I think Mulch might actually be completely spewed town. I think LMK/Mulch, Tchill/Mulch, Eeve/Mulch are never actually things so unless all three of them are somehow town I think the odds she's town from that alone is pretty huge. But I'll spend time going through her ISO tomorrow, will also go through LUV's then too.

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Who's alt?

Spoiler:

But on a more serious note, want to discuss my actual reads that I put down? You've been waiting for someone to elaborate on their town read on MMM, I've done that and they're my strongest town read by some distance, maybe discuss that or my scum read on Tchill or something?

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i unvoted lmk back then because my scumread on him was mostly activity based and i had someone else that i could get info on.

Which lead me to an eventually slight townread on mulch.

You say this but you didn't actually put another vote down for ~25 hours after unvoting LMK, so what's the motivation behind unvoting one scum read to have your vote on no one for that period of time? Like how did that help you at all? Would like you to elaborate on your reasoning behind your town read on Mulch if you can, would also like you to pick any 2 other players in the game you think you have

deep

thoughts about and elaborate on them for me.

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@Evee - What prevented you from having 'discussion' while maintaining your vote on LMK? Like you're not really answering my question here. Can you be a little more specific about LUV for me; which pushes exactly of his do you find scum motivated and why his rather than anyone elses?

@LUV - I think a lot of your points in that points against MMM are pretty silly and not really alignment indicative? I don't think he 'constantly ignored answering' your question at all. You're also misreading MMM's tiers, it's [town, null, scum] with the coloured people in the null territory people he think could be scum due to their lack of content archetype fitting with how he thinks scum play rather than just scum reading their posting itself. He wasn't ever 'lying' there, it was people not reading his posts and I can very much understand why he was so frustrated there. I very much think you're wrong on the slot and think you need to take a step back and have another look at it because that slots absolutely town. Maybe take a look at Tchill and my scum read on him while you're doing it too.

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Also eat that Nancy, no page top for you.

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Could you just remind me who replaced who?

Sure, Chickadee replaced MMM and I replaced Bomberman. Can you expand a little more about your read on Tchill for me please. I think there's a lot of fairly solid reasoning behind him being mafia here ranging from his interactions with Mulch inside the early game coming across very awkwardly in a fashion that makes sense with scum->town type interactions there. His read progression and reads throughout the game being pretty non-existent and very difficult to follow. His interactions with GreyICE and his treatment of LUV all making a lot more sense as scum and think in comparison the reasoning you've presented for Massive while true is much weaker, so maybe try and explain the "Unsure" read on Tchill, is there something from him you think that negates the points mentioned above (if so what) or do you just disagree with the strength of them here?

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@Mulch - Vote Tmchill (See how worthless statements like this are, now stop doing them).

@Danny - It's not that Tchill town read Mulch and asked her a question; it's he asked her a question that insinuated he wanted her approval for him eventually moving his vote, when she didn't he moved anyway, it's a 'what's the point of waiting for an answer then' type thing. Got any particular read of mine you want to bounce some thoughts around about?

@Massive - I'd not consider this a 'long D1' it's been ~6 RL days so shouldn't be conf-biasing reads this early on at all. I don't think Chickadees been that fluffy and 'formed reads but no workings to get there' is pretty natural for most people upon replacing in, it's a lot of information at once, you have reads based on it but aren't able to put them together as nicely as you'd like. I think you like LUV are misconstruing what MMM had posted, his middle section was null reads that he thinks fit the archetype of scum that aren't posting as much, do you think it's implausible to lump you in that category regardless of what your meta is like? I'd have found it suspicious if he

did

highlight other names that are low-content and not include you so you scum reading that is pretty unreasonable and illogical.

@LUV - You are misinterpreting his reads, take a look at the spoilered quotes below, it's him not him scum reading their posting itself but rather admitting the lack of content generated from them makes sense as scum, that differs from a scum read and is more a "Keep an eye on these posters" type read which is pretty understandable. How you're attempting to accuse him of lying over this is pretty mind-boggling stuff and if you're actually town maybe step back and look at it from his shoes, you'll notice why he was getting frustrated then and maybe could actually step back and reassess.

Anyway thoughts currently are that tchill's slide onto LMK is like... disconcerting and weirdly positioned.

If we assume the tchill slot is scum (good assumption) then why isn't he on the mmm wagon? Mmmm?

Would also lynch tchill because, well, he's scum.

Strong town is idany, Uzi, Eevee, Mulch. Anyone scumreading them is bad.

Man, you're a better player than to actually believe the bolded here, "hmm, what scum motivation is there not to put someone to L-1 or join the leading wagon late on it". Like Tchill not voting MMM should have minimal impact on your read on MMM and doesn't change the fact that slot is town and there's lots of reasoning that should lead you towards that. Run me through the Evee town read please because apparently I'm bad. I'll also take words on your town read on iDanny because I'm getting sort of ~weak town feels~ from him but haven't been able to really lock that down.

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Somehow the spoilered section of my post was deleted, @LUV, referring to these;

Spoiler:

{iDanyBoy, Eeveelution Army, Formerfish}
{Mulch,

LmkGuy, aronagrundy, massive, MordyS

}
{gerryoat, Bomberman, Lil Uzi Vert, Tchill13}

I'm leaning scum on the yellow slots (bar MordyS who I think didn't confirm) until further evidence due to the "scum wants to not have any heat on them during RVS" thing motivating scum to be inactive during this stage in my eyes. Obviously,

most

of these reads are obviously with low confidence as of yet, and are likely to change over time.

Basically the yellow names mean they haven't posted enough content to justify a solid read on them, and that they could be scum deliberately avoiding posting content - not necessarily while giving some useless reason, I think none of them has done that.

5. My scum reads aren't ordered that meticulously, they are merely on 3 different levels - townleans, null slots, scumleans. Having a list that is ordered

that well

at this point in the game with high confidence can't even come from town. The fact you're pointing at something minor like that to attempt to get attention off of yourself reads as scummy as well.

And Gerry's not wrong here, this MMM wagon still being a thing is pretty disgusting.

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@GreyICE - Think even 'newbie' scum know that putting someone to L-1 or jumping on a wagon late is a bad move? I've taken a look and he's got two completed scum games already so he's by no means completely green. Again, none of this is changes the fact that the MMM slot is town regardless of Tchills alignment or his voting habits. You know this too. What, MMM gets mad that he's getting pushed for the wrong reasons as scum? Replaces out, posts his reads and requests dead QT access? Huh. Not a thing. Slot is 100% town here.

I...don't really agree with any of your reasoning behind the Eeve town read at all? Walk me through it like I'm 5. I don't think scum 'avoid interacting with Mulch' at all and find the angle that Eeve took as well as her floating posts more likely to come from scum here. The only thing I agree with you on is the spat is that Mulch doesn't' come out of it pretty either.

But work with me here? Joined largely for you, pretty unlikely we're both around D2 so maybe expand on the iDanny read for me? I'm more than happy to expand on anything of mine that you disagree with / want to hear more about so feel free to ask, caveat of this being I've not read enough of Mulch/LUV to have a discussion on them yet.

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@LUV - This is the last time I'll attempt to reach you on this point. MMM had town reads (Top line) and scum reads (Bottom line), this is impossible to argue about. His list in the middle was desgined to be his null reads but in there he highlighted the players the thinks could fit a specific scum archetype, he's not scum reading them per-say but admitting they could potentially be scum, this is a completely reasonable thing for him to do. This shouldn't be hard to grasp, Massives vote there for calling Massive a lower content player was defensive as MMM's point about his lack of content wasn't untrue and MMM wasn't actually attempting to push Massive on this at all, in fact he'd not even dropped Massive down to his bottom line. This is why he was getting frustrated, because no one was attempting to look at things from his PoE and you're continuing not to do so. Like I can understand why both Bomberman and MMM replaced out just from this little interaction I've had with you so far.

What does a MMM!Town flip do to help you solve Tchill and what does a MMM!Scum flip do for you because that last line from you feels throwaway.

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Yeah, nothing LUV is saying makes a lick of sense.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Was kind of hoping GI would realise who I was and actually play this one properly but if everyone is going to play brainlessly then I really don't see the point of investing.

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She's at L-2, not L-1 and it's most certainly a mslynch.

Tchills mafia, Evee might be too and then there's just a huge pool of people where you'll have to look at and go "is this a case of them just being the bads or scum".

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You're voting the only person in the game I'd bank the game being town at the moment GreyICE. And I did invest initially, I elaborated in pretty deep detail why I think Tchill is mafia, I also elaborated on why the MMM slot is town, you seem to agree with the Tchill scum read as does a few other people but no one is moving across, shouldn't that tell you that he's a hit more times than not for that alone? I disagree with "MMM being scummy pre-replace out", I've stated why. I also think that MMM's replace out reads post and request for dead QT is something you should be acknowledging just never comes from scum. What's he need access there for if he's mafia and he knows the scum team? He's not making that comment to get town read imo, he's not that good a player, it's something he genuinely wanted. I also don't really see your issue with Chickadee's posting, her read on Tchill isn't bad? Her read on LVU isn't something I really agree with reasoning wise but I think she believes it which is what matters?

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"Too scummy to be scum" is by far one of the dumbest arguments that's been thrown around on this website. You'll find most of the time when it's used it's actually about scum. (Notable; There's a difference between "Too scummy to be scum" and "There's no scum motivation for the actions")

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@Massive - Don't think not highlighting Mulch is unreasonable given her 96. She couldn't really be considered 'low content' albeit I think she's sort of moved towards far less analysis and more fluffy posts as the games progressed which isn't great. Would argue that FF's 212 excluded him from that pool and he'd had a town read on FF making that argument fairly irrelevant. He'd also had a town read on Danny and he'd had a scum read on Gerry that both didn't have anything to do with lack of content posted so I'd point that his reads make a lot of sense there and it's you taking it way too personally rather than considering it from his PoV. If the mod comes into the thread and confirms the MM slot as town who do you think looks the worst / is most likely mafia in the game and why?

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@Mods

LMK has gone 4 1/2 days without posting, a prod please?

<<< nancy did in fact prod him. >>>

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Don't really like Tchills reaction towards the scum reads and move towards Evee.

Also not really liking Grey's focus here but more in a 'he's better than that' than a 'that's scummy' way.

Saw you ignored this RI? Wanna talk about it?

Not really. I'm an alt for a reason, admittedly one that's probably fairly obvious to those that know me but suffice it to say I've seen him play. I'd imagine you and Chicka know each others games pretty well, there a particular reason you've not attempted to interact with her or commented on her play in any real depth (And "Because I already know the slots scum" is not a reasonable answer). What do you think of her reasoning behind calling you town?

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Followed along with part of Mini Normal 1908 where I saw MMM's scum game and it was pretty atrocious, I'd not consider him a scum mastermind despite him winning that game and don't think he'd have been able to pull off some of the things he's done here. But this isn't really a meta read, more a "Slots blatantly town via his play and replace out posts" read.

I was informed of who you are shortly after.

This shouldn't be allowed, pretty sure it's a either a rule break of an abuse of powers.

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I don't agree that MMM's posts were scummy at all? I've not understood

anything

about the wagon on him. And by "Disliking your focus" I mean having a back and forth Mulch that isn't really going anywhere other than just making it even clearer the caliber of player he is might be fun and true and all but doesn't really help towards actually solving the game whereas talking over reads that we disagree on entirely or reads where we have very different reads strengths is what's going to actually move the game forward properly, I'll be your Llamarble; work with me.

I went into the Tchill scum read pretty extensively here, what about it do you disagree with if anything?

Tchills interaction with Mulch in the early game is hugely awkward, the question of what she makes of Bomber in 139 to her answering she doesn't know but he's wrong to him voting Bomber in 151 is a really scum motivated progression and one that's really unnatural to come from town. The constant re-stating that Mulch is town without any real deep analysis anywhere there doesn't feel like town thinking about the game but then Mulch dropping to null in 440 with no explained progression is a pretty big scum tell. His stance on day lengths in 443 pretty massively contradicts what he voting LUV for initially in 406 and the explanation that he voted for 'reactions' isn't one that really makes sense there. His reasoning for dropping the town read on LUV and town reading Grey in 721 is pretty ??? too. I really have a lot of trouble seeing a lot of his thought processes coming from town here, they don't really run smoothly at all.

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Not reading either of those as scummy? Bad play, probably? But nothing more than that, I'm finding his push on LUV as something he believes in regardless of the level of logic attached with the push. Would also argue that stating he "torpedoed" when it was ~2 RL days into the day phase is pretty inaccurate, not unusual for players to get overly-convinced about their own reasoning very early on to step back and reassess as town. I also think his self-vote and frustration post is due to his annoyance that people aren't actually reading his posts properly (notable with Massive's vote on MMM for instance) and think it's one that came up fairly naturally. Would add that when reading through the thread I had a similar level of "The fuck did I just join, this is a lot of shit awful play" and thought a lot of that from players directed at him.

Think there's enough re; his replace out type posts that should over-power that regardless of how you're reading those posts anyway so shrug?

What's your thoughts on Mulch probably just being spewed town here? There's probably ~5 players I just flat out can't see her ever being scum with in the game which makes the worlds that she's even possible to be mafia in to begin with pretty small and I think none of those worlds are particularly realistic.

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Eh, not really what I was asking -- more referring to I think Mulch has very little possible partners if he's mafia here (With none really being my scum reads) and that greatly increases the odds of him being town rather than a "His play doesn't look like scum" type thing which I won't be able to comment on till I read his catastrophe of an ISO.

As someone that replaces in a lot I think the stigma with replacements being scum more often is kind of incorrect in that I've only replaced in as scum twice out of ~20 replace though I selectively replace in a bit. Wouldn't say the notion of replacing out is a town-tell though but the manner that MMM replaced out showed he was genuinely frustrated with the game, it's plausible he was frustrated with how he was being treated as scum sure, but I don't think his last post happens and I most certainly don't think he requests dead QT access in that case.

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Oh who cares about potential partners. Why are we even discussing mulch? I want to discuss people we're going to lynch not people we'd never lynch in a million years day 1.

I care. I want to attempt to narrow this down as close as possible while I'm here, being able to rule players out goes a long way to doing that.

So set aside your bias for a moment, because you know I'm not bad at this. Does Chickadee's posts really remind you of town?

I don't mind her reads overall but as for her posting it doesn't do much for me either way and given she's only replaced in ~36 hours ago that's not a huge concern?

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I think regardless of her alignment focusing on LUV more than anyone else is a natural thing given their relationship, I don't think that's a scum tell at all here. I again thinking the statement of "ignore x players" is unfair given the short time she's been in the game, if it was a pattern over a long period of time I'd agree but as is I think means nothing. The "Call out lurkers" isn't an awful point at all and probably the only one I'd agree with being a thing since the "Vote most plausible non-you wagon" is incorrect given she was the first to vote Tchill when Lmk had 2 votes at the time.

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Grey's meta link grab with Tchills two posts is pretty solid, it's not just the fact that comments are similar like the "don't out PRs" or "not going to advocate my own Lynch" but the attitude being so similar is very damning. Would like to see content from FF, Arona and the LMK slot that's almost certainly getting replaced before we actually Lynch though.

Hate to say it but I don't like Chickadees push and interactions with Mulch here at all. Don't see what she's getting out of it and the attempt to call "not confident he's not scum" and "maybe more town I guess" a red flag is very weak. I'd much rather she spend her time elaborating on her reads she's stated when catching up. The slots probably town but not really comfortable having her in the locktown category after that exchange.

Think tchill-mulch and tchill-Evee are very probably unaligned so a scum flip is a good look on both of them, also think Grey/Gerry/FF look good for earlier pushes on him too but this is something that people can spend more time looking at if tchill flips mafia.

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If LUV isn't scum they'll obviously kill you then push for the autolynch. If you DON'T die then you're just gonna push LUV since he didn't kill you because if he did kill you yall would have auto lynched.

His statement started with "if Tchill flips mafia" you posting this is effectively a scum claim, you realise this. Right?

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I'm around FF but only on a phone at work. Can talk once you've caught up.

But how can I scum claim... When I'm not scum?

You're arguing that Gerry's plans flawed by stating how mafia can abuse it when his plan begins with you flipping scum. If you're town his plan falls apart upon your lynch anyway making the point you're arguing very nonsensical.

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Yeah, I did.

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I'll go with maybe? Would much rather be hearing your reads/thoughts here.

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Pretty sure you'll get my opinion on all of those things via reading the thread? If you want a short summary though I like a lot of your reasoning behind your early Tchill scum read and its a read I agree with very much.

I'm not sold on the MMM slot being scum, based on MMMs play himself and his replace out post I think that slot is very likely town, Chickadees recent posting hasn't really helped that at all though, find her push and reasoning on Mulch pretty cringe worthy. I think the stagnation of some of the voters on the MMM wagon that got on for some particularly skeevy reasoning and aren't players I town read is a serious concern.

I have a much smaller pool of players I'm confident are town than I'd normally have and that I'd like and a pretty small group of weak town reads too, pretty much a lot of slots I think are scum or that I'd not cry if they'd died in the night. None of this is particularly warming

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I've gone into MMM and his replace out pretty extensively in my ISO, not really a topic I want to waste more time on personally.

Can understand the "Sounding board / hydra = easier" stance, much prefer playing inside hydra's or just talking about games with people when neither of us are in games myself but can't really comprehend why you haven't at least ISO'ed me before wanting to have this conversation as that'd lead towards a much smoother and easier interaction from both of our perspectives. I've given a reads list of most of my town and scum reads which can be found inside my first 4 ISO posts.

Don't really disagree in that I found the Mulch<->Gerry love of each other in the early game pretty hard to follow re; the sheer read strength but I've come around to them both being town individually and think it's more just a playstyle difference than anything else.

"I think the stagnation of some of the voters on the MMM wagon that got on for some particularly skeevy reasoning and aren't players I town read is a serious concern."- this is a confusing sentence, can you clarify?

So lets look at the 4 current voters on the wagon [Arona, Massive, LUV and yourself]. Aronas pretty much solely focused on MMM inside his posts and has his vote dating back from #44 with him reaffirming his scum read there since and not really being very active. Massive voted MMM fairly early on too with reasoning that I really don't like, nor do I like his continued vote there or his defence of it. LUV's is probably one of the more reasonable votes but his lack of reassesment there and interaction with it despite him knowing the slot holder well isn't great? And your vote is from earlier too and while I've got a ~weakish town read on you, it's not one where I can say I relate to the read at all, nor do I think you're an up to date and active player. So when you look at the wagon composition I can easily see there being scum that are comfortable just parking themselves there. Hoping that explains it a little clearer.

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My point is, what's the threshold? How do I get lumped into "not enough posts so will call them as 'not wanting to be seen during RVS'" at nine posts and iDanyBoy gets a townread at ten posts? It's arbitrary and that's what I think stinks.

You're completely missing the point here and I'm really not sure how. So, at that point in the game he has "people he thinks are town, people he thinks are mafia and people he doesn't have a read based on their play". Following so far? iDanny for instance was a town read of his, Gerry was a scum read. None of this is complicated. Then inside the "people he doesn't have a read based on their play" there's two groups of people - group 1) Which was at the time just Mulch, being people that have contributed a lot but he still hasn't got an idea on, and group 2) Which was the other three names, which was people he doesn't have a read on and he thinks haven't contributed thus fitting the scum archetype he considers to be a thing. You obviously belong in group 2).

I don't know. LUV probably steps up as he was the early counterwagon and, since, has been the most vocal pusher of MMM. From there I'd look at the active people who never voted MMM which looks like iDanyBoy, Tchill, Eevee and see if any of them were vocally shouting about MMM's innocence. You also probably go in that pile since you have been doing that, but

I felt good about Gamma early on

and Bomberman didn't make me feel any different.

Want to run through this a little more, why do you think if the MMM slot is scum there'd be more scum vocally defending him then pushing him? Also um, the bolded here is a

huge

concern given Gamma has well, 0 posts inside the game so this kind of feels like you just making up reads.

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if the MMM slot is town* the above should read.

But yeah, zero idea how no one pointed out the fact that you're claiming to have had a 'read' on someone that hadn't posted.

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Alrighty I'm ready to hammer someone and just get some associations.

Would rather not do Tchill Or chicadee, though, I think VVV

Okay, talk with me here; if you've got town reads on Chickadee & Tchill, or at least a "I'm not really sure" read on Tchill then who do you think the other two scum are outside of LMK? Some reasoning attached would be appreciated. Who in the game are your confident town reads? Reasoning also appreciated.

You've claimed a few times you'll get around to gamesolving soon, now's your chance.

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I'd kind of consider this L-2 really L-1 in that I think the second he gets put to L-1 there's a realistic chance that either Mulch hammers him or he self-hammers and not really wanting to end this day before hearing at least something from the LMK slot and from Arona. Don't think we need to run the day to deadline or anything like that but certainly some content from them before a hammer would be nice. And sure, if you want to just chat for a bit here before you actually finalise your reading that's fine. I just think I've gone over my reads on MMM & Tchill pretty extensively so far and not something I want to spend the time I can muster now doing. I'm happy to talk about other players though since strengthening/re-examining my reads there certainly would help.

My current ~townish pool is effectively GI, Gerryoat, iDanny, Mulch, yourself and the MMM slot with the Eeve slot possibly if Tchill is actually mafia.

In there I'd only really say I've got confidence in the GI, Gerryoat, Mulch and MMM reads? I can't actually translate my ~town thoughts~ on iDanny into actual words and reasoning and normally that's when I just drop the read so would like you to talk to me a bit about him if you've got time, Eeve too since outside of thinking Tchill-Eeve aren't aligned based on recent interactions I actually have a scumish read on her.

Also didn't get around to mentioning it earlier but I think the sheer speed at which GreyICE pulled up that meta comparison from Tchill (~12 minutes) and the accuracy of his reasoning points pretty strongly towards Grey actually having done a little bit of meta reading into Tchill when I'd pointed out he'd had two completed scum games and kind of think that's a decent indicator that Greys actually town here. Especially when combined with thinking his prior interaction with me came across as him genuinely attempting to analyse the game. Probably my most confident town read at the moment.

[ReplacedIn]

Yeah, your iDanny reasoning isn't too far away from where I'm at with him in that his posts, reads and reasoning look good for the most part. They're fakeable sure? But they're feeling natural, it's fairly weak reasoning and something I'd normally drop until I had something that strengthened it but it's about all I've got on him, wouldn't ask anyone to trust this read on him, I don't even trust it myself but I feel good enough about him that he's far from my lynch pool. Your read and reasoning on Eeve isn't too different from what I'm at either, I'm kind of just hoping a Tchill scum flip puts her into my town pool and I don't have to worry.

Wouldn't mind you talking a bit more about Gerry (Maybe do a quick ISO skim of him first, his posts are short) because I feel pretty happy with that read?

The meta was a post that Tchill made in this game v a post he made in a game as mafia before he was hammered and flipped scum, Mulch did hammer him.

I'm in a weirdish position with LUV in that I don't hate a lot of his posts, I can at least see where he's coming from a little with his original push on MMM but I think his lack of reassessment when where he's wrong on it has been pointed out has been underwhelming. Would expect him to interact with Chickadee a little more, think as town he'd be at least somewhat worried about mslynching her but I'm not really seeing that from his posts. I'd need to actually open up his ISO and try and see if I could follow his thought process and progressions on his reads to give you a better answer but he's overall fairly null?

[ReplacedIn]

Little confused by your town read on Massive here, even ignoring meta I'm not sure how you look at him stating he town read Gamma (who had 0 posts) and come out with town. Want to try and briefly run by what you think of his here points towards him being town?

I'd say outside of that the only reads I'd disagree with is Grey (I think there's strong logic behind him being town but can understand someone being a little more hesitant to call a read here given he's got a solid scum game) and Gerry who I'd like to hear more about re; his recent stuff. But overall your reads match mine.

[ReplacedIn]

Thanks, I'll read that properly later, have to head out now; on a skim it looks like it's partially a playstyle clash though.

You should probably be heading to bed too.

[ReplacedIn]

Arona talk to me about the turn around on LUV and Chicakdee of yours (You scum read both previously) in Post #1098, detail please.

Evee, not sure how you forgot about my read on you given I touched on it in Post #867 and we'd had a back and forth following that which I'd elaborated on my issues with it a bit more, it largely boils down to not liking your focus and progressions throughout the game.

Still not really liking Massives answers to my question in #1010 and #1102 but the answer in Post #1112 is a little better. Still think his stance on the matter isn't really thought through and feels pretty empty. Think the same thing of Massives reads stated in Post #1157, none of the reads feel particularly real, the read on Gerry for instance of "He's not as engaged as when I've seen him as scum so I have him as a slight scum read" feels ???.

Feel like I just read FF slowly lose his mind when catching up here and kind of think the way it happened makes much more sense as town.

Tchills self-vote and subsequent unvote to "Catch someone hammering" is completely nonsensical and just reads as a scum gambit to attempt to do

anything

to try and get town read; he's well aware there are a few players inside this game, most specifically Mulch that would hammer when someone is at L-1 regardless of alignment / the situation so him thinking that could 'do something' just doesn't flow. I also don't think he actually believes quickhammering on D1 is alignment-indicative so it just screams fake here, especially when you add the timing that it happened at re; FF questioning him.

[ReplacedIn]

GreyICE

Formerfish
Gerryoat
Mulch

Chickadee
iDannyboy

aronagrundy
Lil Uzi Vert

EeveeLution Army
Lmkguy

massive

Tchill13

(ROYGBIV system if anyones interested)

That's pretty much where I'm at ignoring interaction based reads; Tchill scum flip moves Eeve and Mulch higher up.

Would like to hear more from certain slots particularly something from the LMK slot but I'm not hugely opposed to a hammer being dropped here.

[ReplacedIn]

Unlikely to actually have time to get to this properly until tomorrow sometime, need a serious reread. Hoping Froggers posted something by then.

Uzi's "guilty" claim on GreyICE while subsequently attempting to claim that he scum reads my slot and think it's actions surrounding Chickadee means he'd have to be contemplating a Grey/Chicka/Me scum team which I don't think he can ever really believe, think Grey/Myself are pretty obviously knowingly unaligned too which makes this whole thing feel very fake? Not convinced it necessarily makes him mafia and think if it's a dumb 'fake guilty gambit' it needs to stop.

1) Post whether you used an action that might have roleblocked me last night

"Use an action" - No. Possibly responsible? I'd hope not but maybe?

[ReplacedIn]

VOTE: GreyIce

Currently need more votes on Grey.

Currently need more votes on Grey.

Giving this day 15 pages

Confidence level of the above and the "15 pages" thing allude to more than just a "dislike what he's doing right now" and I don't particularly think what he's doing is something he's more likely to do as mafia at all, especially when he wasn't scum read at all yesterday? But cool if this isn't a "guilty" claim then people can stop voting GreyICE because he's not mafia.

[ReplacedIn]

@LUV - Elaborated on my town read on Grey in a lot of detail yesterday.

You fucked, son. You fucked

Jesus christ, that could have been so messy if you'd used the shot on me instead of FF given I'm ascetic. Not really a fan of that desgin-interaction. Don't see this ever being a fake claim either.

[ReplacedIn]

It's pretty much like a 1-shot cop with a miller but different roles.

[ReplacedIn]

Have minimal qualms in making LUV dead at some point since not really liking his reaction to how any of this has played out at all and I've not really had a town read on him this game. Also think there's some TMI from the Tchill flip in his posting. We can talk more about the Mulch slot later, I've not liked Chickadees posting today though so

maybe

you have a point there.

Anyway I need to stop posting at work but FF is pretty much always the lynch here today, odds of there being a scum roleblocker to cause another false-positive when it's only a 1-shot role is very small and the odds that the role targeted GI and FF is town is ridiculously small too. Worth spending some time looking at FF's ISO so we can talk on it but I won't have net access for a bit.

[ReplacedIn]

Nah, it's meant to read Chicakdee, not Mulch. Just trying while on the phone with clients.

[ReplacedIn]

Please don't hammer and end the day this quickly. Would at least some time to talk about reads with Grey tomorrow when I get home.

LUV, run me through how having a 100% guilty on Chicadee matches with what you did re; GreyICE, failing to see how it meshes.

Chickadee having zero response towards LUV guiltying her and voting FF over someone who would be confirmed mafia is equally hard to understand.

[ReplacedIn]

I can only be targeted by killing actions.

[ReplacedIn]

Normal review group have moved towards setups being more town sided than they were in ~1-2 years ago so I wouldn't call it implausible to have Neapolitan alongside a cop type role in the same setup, probably not a full cop but a limited shot or even/odd one sure? I don't think the actual thing he's claimed is my concern with him though. I just find "Scum read Chicackdee -> She claims VT -> Check her -> Get Non-VT -> Vote GreyICE because you think his entrance to the day is scummy" being a progression that makes a lot of sense? If he's got Chickadee as a confirmed scum I'd expect there to be a little more either reaction testing or baiting of her or others about her moreso than a repeat of people to vote you? I also think the complete lack of attempt to analyse who fits as her partners post-result isn't great albeit it's pretty early into the day phase. Him also attempting to maintain his scum read on me here is pretty nonsensical given a) How the days panned out, b) The way claims have gone down and c) Interactions between FF-Me are very blatantly unaligned. That said there's issues with Chicakdees play too in that her maintaining this "I'm not going to address him" stance just doesn't fit with the game situation we're in.

We're pretty much confirmed to be in one of three worlds; a) FF + Chicka + 1, b) FF + LUV + 1 or c) FF + Chicaka + LUV. I think we beat c) almost all the time? I don't think he gets away with bussing her and makes three way to win it there, he'll die before then meaning it's just about looking at worlds a) and b) at the moment. We're in a pretty good position considering we've ML'ed D1? in that we're going to hit a situation where it's 8:3 -> 6:1 or at worst 4:1.

So yeah, a little time spend assessing who's more likely inside LUV/Chicakdee or if they're both just scum and if they're not then who's with them should win this game, anyway I need to stop using someone elses laptop so I'll be back to this game in ~24 hours.

[ReplacedIn]

progression that doesn't make a lot of sense*

[ReplacedIn]

Full Loyal Neighbourizer and a Neopolitian Cop (Even if Macho) are hard to balance together in the same setup, wouldn't claim it's

impossible

to be the case but would say it's not a common combination. I think going into what roles it fits with possibly here is more harmful than helpful at the moment, particularly given we're not lynching inside LUV/Chiackdee today so might just leave the setup speculation at that and just focus on in-game reads there. Suffice it to say that I think seeing what pans out tonight/claimed tomorrow will make it a lot easier to assess the setup though.

Don't like FF's reaction towards GI at all inside Post 1308, the way he's talking to GreyICE in the first line comes across as he's talking to town but then shifts it in the second line to scum voting him in his next post. His Post 1336 is similarly awfully for the same reason. Lack of him really weighing in on the LUV/Chickadee situation or stating reads elsewhere isn't good too.

Going to do a deep re-read and see if I can narrow down the worlds when I get home, this'll probably be all the work posting I can squeeze in today.

@LUV

- Actually take your time and respond to the below, determining your alignment is going to make solving this game significantly easier.

Taking that into account, the last scum is

unlikely to be arona or massive.

ELA just like tchill is bleeding town right now and I'll be very surprise if he or she is scum. This again leaves for me Bomber's slot, Dany, and LMK's slot.

I don't think

Mulch let's his partners replace out to be honest so he can be then too.

Elaborate in as much detail as you can the bolded reads. What makes you think Arona/Massive are unlikely here? Why specifically do you think Mulch would be less likely to let partners replace out and how would Mulch prevent them from replacing out if scum don't have daytalk here (Your assumption they do feels..wrong?), to add to that if Mulch is mafia then only one partner replaced out (MMM) so explain these reads to me like I'm five because I'm looking at these and thinking "this doesn't look like real scumhunting". I completely agree with the Mulch read conclusion, just not at all how you're getting there.

Would also like you to comment on how you can genuinely still be attempting to maintain me inside your scum pool after the spoilered comments below. Notable being the time-stamp difference between GI's claim and my response/claim being ~6 minutes as well as the fact I pretty much softed/revealed my role in my original comment. Like anyone with a semblance of ideas about setups would understand how Acetic fits in the setup with a full Loyal Neighbourizer, and even moreso if there's a Neapolitan in the setup which you're claiming there is.

Spoiler:

"Use an action" - No. Possibly responsible? I'd hope not but maybe?

Mmmm, that's everything important. I wouldn't believe anything else anyone said. I'm a 1-shot loyal neighborizer.

Guess who isn't in a quicktopic with me?

Vote: FormerFish

You fucked, son. You fucked

Jesus christ, that could have been so messy if you'd used the shot on me instead of FF given I'm ascetic. Not really a fan of that desgin-interaction. Don't see this ever being a fake claim either.

She isn't a PR which means she's a goon.

Would also take an explanation on this, you know she's not a PR and a goon...how? That's not what your role tells you.

[ReplacedIn]

Not my point; my point is that him specifying that you're a goon rather than potentially mafia PR is what doesn't add up. But I'd rather him focusing on the other two sections directed at him then that because that's a much smaller concern.

And it's past the point where you can just go "Not commenting further", he's hard-claiming that he's got a guilty on you. If you're town you should know by now he's mafia for a fact and you need to start actually showing that to us, that or just claim mafia and lay down and die. Happy with either option.

[ReplacedIn]

GreyICE claiming Loyal Neighbourizer; Targeted FF, No QT set up (Either roleblocked or FF is mafia,

very

likely the latter).

LUV claiming Macho Neapolitan saying that Chickadee is not a VT. Chickadee claims VT (Either one is mafia or

possibly

both are).

I'm Ascetic; can only be targeted by killing actions.

Should have two scum minimum inside FF/LUV/Chickadee here, should be guaranteed to be at either 6;1 or 4;1 at worst after this.

[ReplacedIn]

Your logic behind "Scum wouldn't double buss and day would have ended sooner if they did" holds very little weight? I've seen wagons that are all town, wagons that are all scum, being as arbitrary to make that statement shows very little actual real assessment of the situation. There's also the fact that if both scum were on him it'd actually make more sense for the day to drag rather than less given they'd have lost the ability to move to increase the wagon size so looking at your analysis there and struggling to see how it's a genuine though process. I'd also argue that less than 20%, maybe even less than 10% of Mini Normals have day chat so really not seeing how you've gone to that conclusion there either.

The "Don't care about the claim, does nothing for me" stance is just mind-boggling difficult to comprehend.

The "If she was a scum PR she'd have fake claimed" thing similarly is something I'm having trouble eating, don't think mafia PR's are really any more or less likely to fake claim a PR than a goon unless they're able to actually claim their actual role and claim it's a town one, if it's a roleblocker/rolecop or anything of the sort they're not able to do that either. But again, this point is super minor.

So yeah, still left looking at your posts and trying to work out "bad or scum".

[ReplacedIn]

I'd appreciate no one hammer until I at least get a chance to read this properly, will be home for the first time in a while in a few hours and can devote the evening to this game. Inclined to really buy GI's reasoning behind LUV's role not existing here and thinking his play makes zero sense as town.

@FF - If you're town you need to drop this "frustrated, what can I do?" and "GreyICE is mafia because he's not thought this through" shitck because his entrance into the day was him effectively attempting to rule out the possibility of him being targeted by a town role that lead to a false-positive. There's the possibility that a scum-role led to it sure, but it's never enough reasoning not to lynch a guilty here. And actually go all-out sharing your reads and thoughts on the assumption that he's town, because well he's town here 100% of the time.

[ReplacedIn]

Yeah, exfuckingactly my fucking point

It's a pretty irrelevant point though, if you're town actually look at it from others perspectives; either two things are the case 1) His action failed because you're mafia, 2) His action failed because he was roleblocked by mafia when targeting you. In 2) it's still possible that his action failed both because he targeted mafia and was roleblocked. When you put it all together his play and you being lynched is something that you should be understanding and instead elaborating on your reads and thoughts to give us the best chance post-flip. That's not what you're doing and instead what you're doing feels more like scum frustrated they were caught in this manner.

[ReplacedIn]

I refuse to believe you think his play here is as mafia to go and do a 1-1 trade to get you mslynched when he was town read by majority of the room prior to it. Also think his role explains the existence of mine inside the setup completely and don't think he'd have known this prior to his claiming at all not to mention his play is pretty transparently town throughout the whole game. So if you're town you need to actually start acknowledging he's town here and start providing actual reads and content rather than butthurt frustration posts which is what you've been doing so far. Like if you're town here I understand that this situation isn't fun or ideal, but you need to be doing much more with it.

Anyway;

Vote: LUV

Dude is just openly wolfing at this point.

[ReplacedIn]

Yeah LUV is literally openly wolfing. His treatment of this day phase and his guilty on Chicakdee this day phase just is never something that comes from town.

FF, him pushing a lynch on you by no means should lead towards the way you're treating or reading him. Need to learn to step back and look at it more objectively if you're town here. Like this is me trying to actually work with you here, so if you're town going "stop nitpicking my play" is just ???

[ReplacedIn]

Mulch, GreyICE isn't scum.

And why does Uzi out his "guilty" on Chick instead of just sheeping Grey onto me?

Ok, so if I were to assume he is town and I am town, then that leaves what, a role blocker?

Yes? Don't think a roleblocker if GreyICe is a full cop is unlikely at all, nor do I think he's a hugely unlikely target.

Various reasons but mainly his recently casted vote.

It doesn't make sense from a town perspective. He's still talking as if he believes you're scum but won't vote you after he's clearly not satisfied with your responses.

Don't intend to end the day any time soon, think voting FF leads towards a hammer and think there's a chance you're even more likely scum than he is. Think your posts in the last ~24 hours have been a hard scum claim.

And why does Uzi out his "guilty" on Chick instead of just sheeping Grey onto me?

It wasn't a "intentional" thing he did to begin with, it's something he's sort of made up as the day has progressed. Take a look at it again.

[ReplacedIn]

Going to respond to the recent stuff when I get home.

Would also like Chickadee to hard claim whatever she is in her next post, her lurking throughout all of this isn't a good look too.

[ReplacedIn]

And if you think Uzi is scum and the role cop it won't matter what she is.

Why do you want this. If she is town she's a PR.

Because there's no gain in "hiding" what she if she's a town PR and LUV rolecoped her as mafia since mafia would already know? Whereas her hard-claiming and taking a real stance on "VT" or "Non-VT" either sets up a very hard 1v1 between LUV & Chickadee or provides more information to understnad the situation in? Also becasuse the way she's handling this all does not look like town either?

Town would've claimed by now.

I know my girlfriend, she's scum who gave up.

Then why aren't you pushing that lynch with the power of a thousand suns then? This is one of the hugest issues I have with your play, if you're town and know she's 100% mafia you're intentionally letting the focus be between 3 other players in the game which is just ?????????????????????? levels of bad.

[ReplacedIn]

Would literally bet the bank on both GreyICE & Mulch being town for the record, zero people should be scum reading either.

[ReplacedIn]

LUV, if you're town from your perspective you know that Chickadee is mafia, yes? You also know that there's a seriously high chance of an existence of both a Town Neopoltian + Town Cop. This means the odds of there being a roleblocker in the game is

very

high, this means that letting the focus be between both GreyICE/Fish over Chickadee has potential for it to be a case of TvT instead of S. This is a huge concern I have with your play, if you're town you should be attempting to get Chicakdee lynched today, but you're not.

[ReplacedIn]

Okay, finally home at a laptop. Time to get a better grip on this game.

MordyS GreyICE
EeveeLution Army
Lmkguy1 Fro99er
aronagrundy
iDanyboy
Mulch
Formerfish
Lil Uzi Vert
MMM Chickadee
massive

Was going to devote an entire post on explaining why Grey is so blatantly obviously town here but actually don't really see a huge merit in devoting time to that since I think if anything it'll just increase the odds of him being scums night kill, if people genuinely think he's mafia here I can spend time on this but otherwise I won't. Will say there's multiple really strong logical reasons that I'd bet the entire game on him being town here though.

I've not really seen or understood anyones town read on ELA this game, I don't really see any real analysis from him today whatsoever just a restatement of claims and that's about it? Could very easily see him as scum here just about any of the trio that we're mainly looking at (maybe less-so with LUV). So yeah, would like people to elaborate on the town read on him here or at least discuss him a little more at some point since I think it's very possible he's scum?

Didn't like LMK's initial reads post, think it comes more from mafia, him actually flaking makes him inactivity around the end of D1 pretty non-alignment indicative though since he seems to have genuinely site-flaked, got nothing from Frogger. Hoping his catch up posts help resolving this slot.

I really like most of Aronas assessments so far today, the vote on FF putting him to L-1 but instantly unvoting 1 minute later since he didn't want to risk FF self-hammering and ending the day early feels very town motivated. His read that FF's handling of GreyICE here where he's treating him as both town/scum in weird manners was pretty accurate and his read on Mulch matches mine pretty nicely. He's very probably just town here? Fact that he doesn't particularly work with either LUV or Chicackdee is another upside albeit the latter is a very weak not w/w read. I'd like a little more content from him in genera but I don't think he's mafia.

Not hugely impressed with iDanny's content so far today either but I really don't see him defending Chicakdee in the manner he did if he's partners with her and some of his back and forths with LUV don't really look like W/W so it's pretty unlikely he's mafia here from that alone? Feel like I should be having stronger reasons for him being town here but I still don't which isn't great but think there's a considerable amount of people that are more likely scum than him?

Mulch is just town, all over the place, yes, playing badly, yes but town. Don't think she has the interaction with FF where she unvotes because she doesn't think he uses that emotional manipulation as mafia if she's actually mafia. Don't think she openly admits to how bad she feels about her play this game and discusses replacing out due to it in the thread as mafia. Don't think she can genuinely fake being this confused as mafia. While her reads and stances are all over the place I can actually follow to some degree how she's getting to the stances she is even when I think they're totally wrong and illogical. She's the definition of newb but completely transparent town, all her thoughts however silly are being shared in the thread, the fear she's being pocketed and manipulated re; setup discussions is just so obviously a real thought from her here. She's absolutely never to be lynched this game. Like take it to the bank, cash it in town.

Getting food then getting to the rest of the list.

Effectively tldr so far is GreyICE & Mulch are always town, Arona is very probably town, iDanny is probably town but it's not a read I feel very good about at all. I've got weakish scum reads on Eve & LMK's slot, would like people to talk more about the former and I'm hoping the latter is self-resolving.

[ReplacedIn]

Grey, first off I'm not Hito. Secondly please take a few hour break from this game for both your and our sake. You're getting far too rilled up. When you get back talk to me a little about how Chickadee is handling this situation;

search.php?author_id=16176&sr=posts

[ReplacedIn]

LUV & GI, please stop interacting with each other for a while, reading 10+ pages of you two insulting each other isn't fun or helpful.

Also Mulch, you really need to get a grip. Take a break from the game and gather your thoughts rather than constant paranoia theories like "Grey and Uzi both scum!" please.

---

GI, I don't disagree that both LUV and FF need rope at some point in the game, I'm hoping if the former is town he's resolved via the night kill and if the latter is town there's not a lot that can be done, he's effectively a forced mslynch at some point this game. On that front we have no disagreements. But real talk time;

I'm 100% certain you're town here. I understand your argument of "I have a guilty on FF and I'm not lynching anyone else", I think that's very reasonable and know it's very much in your nature to be like that. That said there's two other worlds that exist now that you've claimed a full Cop and not a 1-shot.

World #1 is both LUV and yourself are town; Know the existence of both of your roles being town are

very

small and pretty sure LUV is wrong in that I don't think it's a combo that's ever existed inside a Mini Normal before but as someone that's been in the NRG I can outright state that setups nowadays are significantly more town sided than what they were in the past, I think Cop/Neapolitan both having modifiers with an Ascetic and mafia having a Roleblocker/Rolecop is a genuine possibility here, I can see Mastina putting together that combination thinking it's clever and knowing who reviewed it think there'd be very little 'tweaking' of the setup before it being approved. In this world the odds that you were roleblocked isn't insignificant, at minimum 1/7, higher due to you being a town read during the day phase.

World #2 is that LUV is mafia and you're town; In this world scum having a roleblocker isn't impossible either.

In both cases it's possible you were roleblocked and he's still scum and to some extent that explain a lot of the frustration he's showing in the thread since it'd be him getting caught based on the wrong reasons entirely but I also think some of his frustration here is something he'd think was a little too far as mafia too? Like odds are he's scum here 90% of the time based on his progression of his read on you being funky, him not really doing a lot of actual game solving post-claim but I don't think it's 100% impossible that you're both town here. He's dying before the end of the game, I'm just not completely sold on it being the right move today. On the other hand we know for a fact there's minimum one scum between LUV and Chickadee. I also think the tin-foil world where LUV rolecopped Chickadee and she's a Non-VT and he's made that claim as mafia just never exists, mafia don't use the rolecop on someone that claimed VT when put at L-1. Someone that's a town PR doesn't claim VT when put at L-1 and threatened with a hammer.

So there's mafia in Chickadee & LUV, now look at how Chickadees played today so far;

Spoiler:

Feels pointless coming from me, but I'll entertain your request.

Nope

Mulch, I'm curious, do you plan on being more helpful this day phase?

And Grey, I'd like to talk about you switching wagons yesterday. You were pretty set on lynching me, and then ReplacedIn mentioned I was the first to vote tchill, and that seemingly was enough to sway you.

Yes or no Chickadee, this is not optional time.

Feels pointless coming from me, but I'll entertain your request.

Nope

And I'd like to add that no one else answer Grey.

I claimed yesterday, which is why I felt find answering. And Mulch is just being trolly, so whatever.

But no one else answer, just in case it ran across your mind to do so.

Beat me to it. I really should start reading before posting.


My point still stands though.

Yea, no. I'm not getting behind any lynch with that as a basis.

Yea, I'm good with that with how things have gone so far.

VOTE: GreyICE

Mulch no

VOTE: FormerFish

Makes sense

I don't believe LUV, so I'm not going to address it. He's convinced I'm scum, and just wants me dead. If he had a confirmed guilty on me, why did he come in and vote Grey instead of me?

On the contrary. If FF flips town, I think Grey is still most likely town. It's a horrible play as scum, he'd be putting himself too early in the game.

Would also take an explanation on this, you know she's not a PR and a goon...how? That's not what your role tells you.

He's basing it on the fact that I claimed VT. I really don't care to change my claim either, and that's all I'm saying on it.

She came into the day and pushed and voted you, then moved towards your guilty with little actual progression shown in it. Had little to no reaction towards LUV claiming she's not a VT when if she's town she should know he's mafia 100% of the time, that or she's a PR that fake claimed VT when threatened with a hammer which just isn't a thing here. So uh, she's just always mafia no? Especially combined with her lurking out the day while being active elsewhere during it? Like if she's town she wants to attempt to either a) Diffuse this "LUV v Chicakdee" situation if she's somehow a PR or b) Push LUV as mafia if she's a VT.

Like, just looking at all this it's hard to see a world where it's Scum!LUV and Town!Chickadee, it's almost always either Scum!Chickadee and Town!LUV or Scum!Chickadee and Scum!LUV.

From a logic, risk minimisation and reads based on how they've handled the day phase it makes much more sense to lynch Chickadee here than anyone else?

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Chi, you're at L-1.

Please claim so the rest of the lot can weigh in on your claim and then eventually come around to hammering your slot.

VT, nothing exciting

Read me for me LUV. I know you're good at reading me. You'll catch me if I really am scum.

Like the above is how she claimed D1, doesn't play out in that manner if she's a PR and if she's a VT she's pushing him here. So like, she just has to be mafia, no? Like if she's town she's been guiltied as town and decides to throw a vote down on FF and lurk the day phase out? Nope. Nope. Not what town does when guiltied.

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GreyICE, I think going with a hard "Mastina wouldn't make this setup" attitude is wrong, the NRG and Mastina personally consider balance and design very differently then what I and yourself think should be the case. I've stopped joining reviews due to this, I won't go into it any more than that but you'll need to trust me that this isn't

impossible

to be a designed setup. Do I think if that's the setup it's messy and silly? Yes. Do I think the review process might not have thought that when designing and passing the setup? Sadly, yes.

And I think you're overly worried about FF, he's not endgaming if he's scum. He's absolutely not. This town is bad, sure, but if you ever get night killed he'd be speed lynched directly afterwards, pretty certain of that. I don't think this should be a lynch based on "who is scarier and might beat us later" but a "who is more obviously mafia based on logic/play" and Chickadee fits that for me via today.

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I mean this got passed with a Gunsmith, Vig, Odd Night Cop v 2 Goons and an Odd night roleblocker or Mastinas last setup here where town had an Ascetic+Gunsmith+Vig+2-Shot Tracker v 2 Goons and a Fruit Vendor it's a pretty clear point towards setups being much more town sided than in the past or what I'd consider level.

Very much considering hammering here. If anyone doesn't think Chickadee is mafia they need to speak up now.

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Games used to have less town power and more scum power, there was a transition towards reducing the mafia power to 'balance' games which was logical and had a lot of backing behind it that Hoopla had brought up. More recently normals have had more town power than previously though and it's due to town having a lower win rate than what they should and the NRG trying to balance bad play/bad players with more town power, it's not a change I approve of at all. Anyway this is mostly irrelevant more just a "LUV and Grey could both plausibly be legit, it's not a one

has

to be mafia" thing.

Considering you'er voting FF currently got any issue with me hammering Chickadee at some stage soon?

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Agree with LUV here, you've got to have a much stronger stance of idea based on what's played out today then that.

Games used to be fairly well designed. Or at least there was an era where they weren't total shit. Although me being a big push for less "each town role has a matching mafia counter" has apparently morphed into "the town is lol overpowered hello town of salem"

Was moreso addressing the "Both roles can't be in the same setup" via power strength, weird interactions are in almost every game nowadays, this mini normal had 5 JOATs, 4 town, 1 scum, this had two town BG's and a JK with mafia having a RB and a Strongman shot. Like almost anything is possible nowadays so would never really go with the "never together" type stance.

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Unvote, Vote:Chickadee

FF very probably still needs to die tomorrow, think people need to look more at Eeve/Massive too, particularly the latter has had some problematic posts today.

Need to not forget about Frogger too.

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Kind of think that result means we're pretty much always lynching FF here? If scum are going to risk having a potentially scummy player cleared via not shooting at you and not roleblocking you just to solidify that mslynch when if he's town he's getting mslynched at some point anyway then it's probably a winning situation for us. The only real plausible situation I see where FF might be town here is if we're dealing with an odd night RB or a 1-shot roleblocker or something. Will be doing a big reread when I get home and would like others to share their thoughts now we have a scum flip, but yeah, probably always voting FF.

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I'm starting to think you might be scum here.

You'd be woefully wrong.

Strongly town read you for a

lot

of reasons, ranging from reading your interactions with me at several stages throughout the game as very genuine, thinking the way you'd presented the Tchill meta-comparison isn't something you would have done as mafia and think the speed at which it was done (~12 minutes from memory) is a very strong town tell. I also think setup-wise your role explains why my role is in the game to a large degree, don't think you'd do any of that "claim if roleblocked" or fake claim in the manner you did to 1 v 1 with FF at all. Found your stance and way you treated yesterday to be well and truly outside of yours and well anyones scum game (and this is coming from someone that has a lot of respect for your scum game). Also think the way you've handled Chickadee and her interactions with you are very obviously not W/W. Then there's the fact that you probably haven't worked out who I am but I'm someone that for the most part (Bar one really weird exception) is very good at reading and understanding you. So yeah, my confidence that you're town is pretty much 100% and something I could write an essay on if needed.

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Kind of wish you'd targeted one of the lurking players, had iDanny as close to lock town based on his Post 375 not being W/W with the MMM slot in the small bit of reading I did overnight.

But knowing that you 100% weren't roleblocked there is pretty powerful.

Anyway done workposting for the day, will get to this at home.

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Arona - Got any reads/thoughts outside of FF here?

Also Mulch, would like you to take some time and actually put together a post (after rereading) with your thoughts on everyone in the game, think you owe us that much after being all over the place.

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I don't see you ever not being roleblocked if mafia have the ability to do so last night, mafia trading the potential for there to be a clear just to lock in a ML on FF seems idiotic since if he's town he's always a ML they're getting anyway. So no, think it's never a gambit or a "forgotten submission".

I think either mafia have no roleblocker or they've got a 1shot or odd night roleblocker with the 1shot being the least likely of the three. I think regardless we are realistically only lynching FF here today since the odds he's just mafia over mafia having exactly an odd night RB and them using it on you when you target town FF is just a lot of things that are unlikely to line up like that.

That said I really want to devote some time today to hopefully fully lock this in as a win. We technically have 4 shots here meaning 5 lock town reads is auto, I'm not far from that number. Really just want to reaffirm my town reads on Arona and Mulch and make sure I'm not wrong on either while seeing who is most likely scum in general.

Your Eve read is still the one I don't have or see.

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It's confirmed to be 10-3 thus no third parties;

This game is explicitly 10:3 town:mafia.

Grey, we can talk more about Eeve after I've had time to do the reading I want to do. Going to play this day phase a little slower.

Do agree that Mulch feels completely spewed town even ignoring the fact that I just don't see anything she's done coming from mafia anyway.

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Idm going slower for today though..just lets not take three weeks

Oh, nothing like that. Just don't really want the night phase to be longer than the day phase which was almost the case of D2, probably happy to spend ~1 week going over things before throwing down a vote. You can speed that up by actually sharing your reads/thoughts/opinions if you're town though.

Like what does MMM flipping mafia do to your reads? Who does it make more likely town/why, who does it make more likely mafia/why?

What do you make of GreyICE confirming iDannyBoy as mafia and him not being roleblocked re; FF?

Who do you think is mafia in general/why?

Some thoughts and reads from you would be massively appreciated since they've been really lacking lately.

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Well excluding people who have claimed and the result and what not. My highest scumread is massive now that i'm looking at his ISO. To me he feels like hes trying to question things but then doesn't really do anything with the answers. It's kinda like what i do as bored townie but its more common as scum.

Idk what to do about fro99er i dont have enough info to have a pure read on him


Also i townread you just because of how you've started to organize town and calm down the chaos, scum would just let town run around confused.

MMM's flip really doesn't idk add anything to me? I don't wanna get deep into any of MMM's wifom. The townread was mostly player meta which personally i hate and now i hate it more.

None of this is really what I was after and none of this is you really putting much effort into actually solving the game. So we'll try this again, we just lynched MMM's slot yesterday and it flipped mafia, re-read the thread and let me know how that impacts your reads. Just stating it's "WIFOM" is meaningless, peoples interactions and treatment of that slot, that slots interactions and treatments of other slots contain a lot of information to garner reads from. Also run me through this meta that you'd town read MMM based on - Link the prior game you're comparing it to if it's completed and how you thought his play here was similar to there.

Pretty much if you're town I need to see you actually playing the game because these above posts are kind of you just waiting to be told where to vote.

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At this point I don't know if it's better for me to fight you all tooth and nail each day phase until we lynch scum like we did yesterday, or to fall on my sword so you guys can get over this tunneling.

So everyone thinks that I spearheaded the lynch on Chick to just save myself for a day?

Fuck it, lynch me and then try to find your asses with both hands town.

This shit needs to stop. If you're town you need to actually realise and acknowledge the fact that GreyICE targeting you N1 with no QT created and him targetting iDannyBoy N2 and having one isn't something we can "ignore" and stating "framed!" doesn't do anything for me at all, nor does "I pushed on Chickadee" which is meaningless given you'd have had no real other alternative and you

not

pushing her if you're partners would make the other look even worse post-flip. So if you're town stop focusing on yourself and focus solely on finding the mafia here and interrogating iDannyboy is not a good start to that.

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This is pretty good indication to me that Massive/MMM are probably not scum together. Bussing happens, but bussing tends to not happen like this. MMM's reasoning was bad, Massive rightly votes him for it, MMM goes "why me?"

Why me = fry me FYI. That's a good rule of thumb in mafia.

I still like AronaGrundy, although review shows his activity is mostly null. Lots of townie-sounding stuff around votes at non-critical times, not a lot of moving the game forward during decision points. It's a bad combination. I'd be fine with him hanging, although I don't know if it's a scumflip.

Mulch remains psychotic town.

I'm starting to feel a lynch order of:

Fro99er (general principle - this level of not playing mafia is not acceptable, and gosh I wasn't impressed by LMK's 4 scummy posts. Do you really want this guy of all fucking players to be the scum who wins the game? I'd rather give it to literally anyone)
If game still ongoing: Eevee
If game still ongoing: Arona

I don't really agree with the "Massive/MM interaction = not W/W" thing at all? I'm looking at that pretty differently than you. I actually find a lot of Massive's push on MMM and the confidence behind it to be overblown and think it's more of a point towards them being partners than against, we can discuss this more soon, I've got today off work so will be doing a lot of ISO'ing. Your confidence in Eeve being town seems to have dropped, you dislike her recent interaction with me too?

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Except he's a cop. Not a neighborizer

Difference is negligible when it comes to the point I was making.

Also, fuck you, lynch me.

You're being childish. If you're town actually fucking devote time to reread the game and state your reads on players.

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Yeah, if we've got a jailkeeper them claiming today and us lynching mafia is pretty much a locked win.

@Frogger - Your reads on both Massive & Arona seem to be based entirely around the world of FF being town, really don't understand the sheer level of confidence behind you having that read at the moment; there's parts of his reaction towards this entire event that read too far to be mafia and there's a small post from Chickadee herself that feels like he could be town but I'm not grabbing your confidence here so explain it to me in more detail. Frankly you'd have to acknowledge the odds of mafia having exactly an odd night roleblocker (or a similar role) and having targeted GI N1 are lower than the odds of FF just being mafia. So you're really really really going to have to elaborate this in real detail for me. Also, if FF's actually mafia how does that effect your reads on Arona/Massive etc?

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Hey Dr. Phil, go psychoanalyze someone else.

Difference is a bit more than that, but you keep telling that story. And why the fuck am I going to devote my time to explain to a bunch people who dont give a fuck to look below surface value on anything.

These fucks act like they have never seen a set of roles that directly interact with each other for ways to make this game harder. Have a tracker? Throw in a ninja. Got a Cop? Throw in a Godfather, or a Miller. I mean for fucks sake that is the exact thing those roles are made to do. If all we do is follow the cop then fuck this game.

Difference really isn't any more than that, GI knows either a) Player is town or b) Player is mafia or he was roleblocked, he got a) on DannyBoy, he got b) on you, this means either you're mafia or mafia blocked him N1 and not N2, is that possible? Sure. Is it the more likely situation? Not really.

Am I willing to entertain that it's happened here? Yes? I'm here actually y'know reading your posts, so if you're town the best thing you can do is focus on scumhunting and actually stating reads rather than just turning this into a feud with GI. I've understood your point re; Arona, would like your thoughts on other players.

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No, my reads on Arona and Massive are based off Chick's flip and my intuition that FF is town.

I've been in FF's position before. This is EXACTLY how I reacted. I got guiltied as scum before and gave the fuck up, just like Chickadee did.

It's far more natural for town to be incredulous about a wrongful guilty on them.

And I have no knowledge of the setup. It could be odd/nonconsec roleblocker. It could be town rolestopper or jailkeeper. I'm just showing reasons why FF isn't lock scum.

Your reads on them are based around you thinking yesterday was TvS (re; FF & Chickadee), this means your reads on them are based around you viewing the world where FF is town and not the reverse and leads towards circular logic behind your reads on them. So again, if FF's scum here how does that change your reads on them? If you ignore FF"s alignment entirely what's your reads on the playerlist entirely?

I've also been 'framed' as a VT in a game I played less than 6 months ago, I didn't react in this manner at all, I understand players are different and I don't think it's implausible for town to react in the manner that FF's doing so, in fact I think his reaction (re; the overblown "lynch me" shtick) isn't an awful look. This however doesn't change the fact that the night actions point towards the slot being mafia, so if you think he's town you're going to need to provide a lot stronger reasoning for me. "He's not lockscum" and "He's town" are two very different things, the first I'd agree with you to a degree, the second I need more on.

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Going to get some breakfast sorted, be back shortly.

VOTE: Former

Then im done here.

If you maintain this vote I'm going to consider it a scum claim, so if you're town actually unvote because I'm planning on dedicating a fair bit of time to this today. Self-voting because you dislike how a singular player is treating you is never the solution at all. Again I've heard your point re; Arona and it's not a bad one, I want more reads from you and the whole "People won't listen to me until I'm dead" is unrealistic, dead players are almost never listened to.

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Also GreyICE, not going to sieve through your ISO for it but did you ever allude to who you might have investigated at night yesterday?

What I'm asking effectively is who do you think mafia thought you'd be checking? (Or at least in what pool?)

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Then stop focusing on yourself and focus solely on reads FF, if you're town make a "Final reads and thoughts" post with lots of reasoning attached.

Literally anything is better than self-voting and complaining because that's just making me want to consider the possibility of you being town even less.

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Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh, god this is an awful setup if that's true.

Mass-claim time, we'll be able to work it out from there.

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Unclaimed Players;
Eeve
Frogger
Massive
Mulch
iDannyBoy

Need to claim in their next post. For obvious reasons Mulch/iDanny should claim last.

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No one should comment on Aronas claim until mass-claim has finalised (Or at least until Eeve/Massive have claimed).

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Arona, you can pull up breadcrumbs you've made pre and post targeting Mulch & GreyICE while we're waiting as well as reasoning behind the N1 choice.

did i claim?

In Post 1419 and by selfvoting, pretty much?

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I nearly went into a long rant about it.

But then I sighed and considered what I already know. And sighed again.

Maybe I should just play on Town of Salem.

Yeah, I've typed up rants about the NRG a few times re; the setups they were letting past and the direction I dislike it going but then deleted it and decided it's not worth the hassle since a) I rarely play here nowadays anyway and b) I don't think anything would be done about it.

But suffice it to say I don't think anything is 'impossible' to come up in games like this.

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@GreyICE, the site I play occasionally at would rather me not mention their name here I think, they're not a fan of MS players in general. I also don't play anywhere near as much as I used to, just a game every few months or so on average and I find myself questioning why I even do that at times.

Eh fuck waiting for Massive & co to come online and claim before discussing it, too impatient.

Think the claim is very likely legitimate given a) It fits with the Macho aspect of LUV's claim b) There's not a lot of scum motivation to make this fake claim especially when there was already a discussion of "too many investigative roles" and when he was getting pressured by someone that was likely the lynch today anyway and c) The crumbs all match up, specifically I think the below one is far far far too unlikely to be fake;

actually i was leaning protecting ff n1 because I had doubts on my town read on him but no one would understand my crumb (look up pittsburgh dialect lol):

Hey yinz I'm back

I actually get town vibes from a lot of y'all so I guess I'm PoEing

Town: luv, mulch, eevee, chick, (this contradicts myself but...I changed my mind lol), gerry
Null town: grey, ff

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And oh god are we going to spend two game phases discussing power roles in a normal game? Fuck this fucking setup in its fucking arse.

A mess is the right way to describe it, if there's a RB then RB->Loyal Cop and RB->Weak Doctor interactions are just ugly and if there's no RB the existence of Loyal Cop/Weak Doctor/Neapolitan is just broken. Probably looking at scum having something like a JOAT with a 1-shot roleblocker and a rolecop maybe?

But either way pretty certain that we're looking at a block of 4 confirmed townies right now inside [GreyICE, iDannyBoy, Mulch, Arona] so this game should be won.

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VT.

Grey is probably town at this point because of his massclaim push. Scum wouldnt openly push for massclaim

Please respond to Post 1923 and really the bolded is why you think GI is town?

Not because of his play in general, his claim or y'know Arona claiming to be a weak doctor that's visited GreyICE and is still alive?

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Yeah, the more I think on it the more I don't ever see Aronas claim here being fake. Very much think we're dealing with one of the following 6 teams;

1) FF-Frogger
2) FF-Massive
3) FF-Eeve
4) Frogger-Massive
5) Frogger-Eeve
6) Massive-Eeve

There's a few of those I think are unlikely to begin with but going to start reading into ISO's and narrow down that list in the next few hours.

FF, I'll take a link to the most recent game where you've been lynched as town and as mafia if you've got the time to find them for me.

Just by the virtue of that statement and with so many confined towns

If you were any other player I'd probably spend some time explaining how illogical this comment is but I think it'd fly right over your head. Will state your "Frogger is town because Mastina stated to PM him" is blatantly bad logic, it's something I (and every other mod) does regardless of the players alignment.

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I think MMM's reads list in Post 228 points against a FF-Eeve scum team in that I think it's far less likely that MMM states 3 town reads inside the game and lists both of his partners there, not impossible but more plausible is he's got 1 there and 1 in the highlighted section.

The interaction between MMM/Eeeve from Post 229->Post 234 feels very soft and could easily see it being between partners.

I actually read the response and quote pyramid in Post 260 & Post 270 in the complete opposite way then GreyICE does in that I think the attitude between the two of Massive-MMM is actually a rather heavy indication that Massive is mafia here.

The buddying from Chickadee towards Eeve in Post 783 & Post 786 kind of makes more sense if he's actually town here?

Chickadees read on Massive inside Post 848, in fact I'll quote it below screams as a read about a partner, particularly given she'd not mentioned him beforehand at all, it's the typical 'distance with partner while not having to focus on getting them lynched at all' type read.

And Massive, Massive is hard to read. I'm null scum on him right now. He's a low content poster, but he's like that as any alignment, so it takes me a bit longer to really get a solid read on him.

Chiackdees comment about FF in Post 1353 below is the one that makes me slightly doubt FF being mafia in that it feels like she's TMI'ing as mafia there;

On the contrary. If FF flips town, I think Grey is still most likely town. It's a horrible play as scum, he'd be putting himself too early in the game.

So based on MMM/Chickadee -> Player interactions I think Massive is the most likely scum at the moment. Going to read the other direction now.

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Please wait until Massive has claimed first, iDannyBoy and you can claim directly after him, the order between you two is irrelevant.

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Could easily see Lmk's read on MMM in Post 336 coming from a partner, it's a super hedgy read where he ends up with a scum read on the slot but makes it clear it's not his strongest scum read. Still not really a fan of Froggers catch up posting, the reads particularly the one on FF doesn't feel fully formed reasoning-wise and certainly doesn't match his confidence in it given the situation we're in, can see him either hard-defending a partner there knowing going down to 1 is a loss or him white-knighting to try and grab town cred to better his slots position. The read and reasoning on Massive in his Post 1891 is actually really good though and points against a Frogger-Massive team existing since there's very little path to victory bussing in that manner today with him stating his preference again in Post 1965.

I will as soon as I know who you are. I don't know how well you are going to evaluate my meta without knowing who you are.

Shouldn't need to know who I am to provide links to your games. If you're going to be like this though then I won't even bother to do that meta reading.

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There's very little actual progression or action behind Massive's MMM/Chickadee read, the vote in Post 257 and interaction in Post 262 on the 22nd is still something I'm having trouble parsing given it really didn't factor in what had actually transpired, restates it's due to him thinking that MMM is "scum caught for the wrong reasons" in Post 586 on the 24th and then nothing until I question him about the slot in Post 885 on the 27th where it's a very vague read, his attempt to drag it and argue semantics in Post 962 is similarly something I think makes much more sense coming from scum.

Also still find his response towards my question about his reads if MMM was town in Post 1010 to show..little actual thought process behind it, town players usually have tin-foil thoughts and theories, reads that don't make complete sense but they've considered when reading a certain post, looking at an ISO or just generally thinking about the game. I didn't see any of that from here there really. I think his complete ignorance of Tchill during that D1 period outside of stating a complete "don't know" on him in Post 1157 to maintain his vote on MMM makes significantly more sense as scum that was bussing and playing for image rather than town considering the game and still find the read on Gerry in particular inside that post to make very little sense.

The complete lack of any comment about LUV's guilty on Chickadee to him stating he's going to vote FF in Post 1410 is a pretty massive (ha!) scum tell here. When he does get around to it in Post 1561 has him questioning LUV re; breadcrumbing rather than y'know actually voting his scum read that was guiltied or doing anything of the sort. There's just no scumhunting or anything from him throughout any of D2, all of his posts are flat air and him avoiding his own strong scum read from D1.

Think the dudes just scum?

Like there's no reads from him that have no real backing or commitment from him?

His scum read on MMM D1 and the way he maintained it and ignored Tchill to state a null read on Tchill while that lynch was going through fits as scum?

His stance on how D2 played out particularly ignoring Chickadee re; the guilty on her makes so much sense as mafia?

Chickadees read on him and MMM"s interaction with vote fit as partners.

Still got to get through Eeve and FF but comfortably voting for now.

Vote: Massive

Fine, give me a minute. You cant blame a brother for trying to figure that out when I had a slight bit of leverage. Give me a few minutes and I can show you whatever you want.

It's cheeky but I want to get through an entire game on alt without revealing/slipping it for once. Thanks for the links though.

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Spoiler:

my gut tells me that there's 1 scum in danyboy/massive due to activity.

Can I just ask what, and I'm quoting The Rock here, IN THE BLUE HELL would make you post this about either of us when both of us have more posts than you?

===

"Scum caught for the wrong reasons" -- some players, especially new players, see wagons build on them for what they consider "dumb reasons" (in this case, the push on activity as scummy) and flip out, calling it all manner of poor play and attacking the push. They feel like they're caught but not for anything they've done that's actually scummy, just something unreasonable. It's a thing.

===

Gonna vote FF because I feel like I know what GreyICE gambits look like but I also feel like there's gotta still be other things to do today.

Wha ... what specifically in that post feels fake?

Catching up from 57.

Well I'm caught up.

I don't have any issue with how LUV entered D2 and while I think I would have checked someone I felt 50/50 on rather than someone I was running up D1, I think he is correct that he could have been drowned out starting today, which plays to his mindset to check Chickadee.

LUV -- did it occur to you to breadcrumb your result? Was there ever a concern that, without pushing Chickadee to start D2, if you had died that it could have been interpreted you HAD checked Chickadee N1 but gotten a result matching her claim?

Fish can you talk to me about your progression from scum-Grey (circa the 1v1 in 1309) to maybe-town-maybe-scum (around 1426) to now pretty much 100% town Grey here?

Man I am just getting into too many WIFOM scenarios in my head.

Honestly I could lynch either and honestly I'm so sick of players on this site just being absolute garbage to other players.

Like the above are

all

of his D2 posts, there's nothing there that looks even remotely town?

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So, am I confirmed town?

Pretty much. You can only be mafia if Arona is mafia which a) Isn't the case and b) Would mean both mafia fake claiming a PR which I doubt here. Not to mention that MMM & Chickadee both spewed you town and your play is pretty transparently town too. Plus I remember you softing when GreyICE initially claimed on D2 and that with the way you've discussed that you want to claim here and don't understand it all is pretty unfakeable. And if you don't want to heavily invest effort wise with actually doing lots of rereads of the entire game that's fine given we're in a pretty unloseable position with 4 clears and 4 lynches with 9 alive but would like you at least elaborate a bit more on your Eeve > Massive stance since I think lots of the reasons I've put forward re; Massive are very strong.

With that I'll be out for a few hours.

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You do you, I don't expect you to vote anywhere else today. I can understand and acknowledge your stance in that regard.

But at least let me do me for now and if I get around to him being the best lynch today then I'll vote him later.

In the meantime I'm going to focus on narrowing down the potential scum teams and worlds and what I've read so far is pointing towards Massive being the play.

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Hmm i think i want to hear from formerfish about this lynch before i make my next move here.

Townreads- former / mmm / lil
Slight scumread on mulch / bomber / possibly lmk depending on what he says when he gets back
Rest neutral for now.

Nothing is locked yet though.

Think the above (Really don't see Eeve ever posting the first about a partner and don't think he'd be ballsy enough to attempt to powerwolf re; his reads in the second one) combined with MMM's reads placement and Eeves treatment of Chickadee v FF yesterday makes me pretty comfortable to rule out Eeve-FF completely.

[ReplacedIn]

Finished going through the four ISO's. Happy to rule out FF-Eeve completely (Went into this in fairly big detail, there's also an interaction between FF->Eeve yesterday re; lynching him to find out if there's a RB that's not a W/W interaction), also think Frogger-Massive (Don't think this is a buss attempt from him and think Massive would have played yesterday differently if his partners were MMM & LMK in that he'd have played to endgame which he hasn't) and Frogger-Eeve (Based around Eeves reaction and 'paranoia' over LMK leaving Eeve out of his reads list earlier in the game as well as Frogger leaving Eeve much lower on his reads list) are less likely.

I think the most likely scum teams we're up against is either 1) FF-Frogger, 2) FF-Massive and 3) Eeve-Massive, in there I think FF-Frogger is probably the least plausible in that on review while Frogger trying to save FF today to make sure it's not 1 scum going into the night is a play that'd make sense as scum it's not a winning move in that he'd be aware that FF is dying at some point and the defence here would mean he'd never be able to get to let alone win a F3.

So pretty much overall I think the most likely teams is FF-Massive or Eeve-Massive.

@GreyICE - I think you'll agree with me that Eeve-FF aren't particularly likely; so assuming Mulch/Arona/iDanny are all town (which imo is the case) who do you plausibly see FF as partners with here at the moment? If the answer is as simple as "One of Massive/Frogger" which is what I'm at then we've almost certainly won.

[ReplacedIn]

Can #2039 & #2040 please be deleted. I've quoted them here;

You're doing relationship analysis when all you need to be doing is sorting out the obvious. We aren't going to play six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Why do you even think Massive and MMM were scum together? How does that make sense? Scum don't do what those two did. Not unless they flat forgot they were scum together, and while massive is many things he's not that derpy (MMM might be, but hey).

This is where we very very strongly disagree, I think Massive<->MMM interaction and how they handled each other make significantly

more

sense as mafia than not, it's how I've seen scum handle their partners in the last ~3-4 games I've played in fact. I don't think Massives progression behind the read, how he handled yesterday or anything in his posting fullstop comes across as town. I think both Chickadee and MMM's comments to Massive point to him being scum. I think he makes sense with both FF & Eevee. Like there's dozens of reasons why I think Massive is scum and the right lynch at the moment.

Oh fuck me

<<< You quoted them so all is good. >>>

[ReplacedIn]

Except that FF talks his way out of that, then kills me, you derp around trying to sort out which bad player we lynch, and he rides this home.

Remember, I'm married to someone who once went into LyLo with 3 confirmed town in an open setup and got one of them lynched. Literally confirmed not to have submitted a kill on a night where someone died and only one scum was left. And that person was lynched because "oh yeah you're playing so poorly you must be scum". This is the sort of crap you get to put up with when scum have shot their way to an ideal town.

That's how we lose this. Not insufficient analysis from someone who is

GUARANTEED NOT TO DIE

. Like seriously we're sitting on two confirmed town and two claimed power roles. Holy fuck why would you ever die ever? Even given it's you, if scum shoot you over a confirmed townie I will do a tapdance of joy. They have no free shots, you can't ever die. Like ever.

I'm well aware I'm not getting shot any time soon, I do think if we mslynch today and mafia have a roleblocker that's odd nights then Arona gets roleblocked and you get shot which is why I'm trying to discuss this with you now. We have 4 lynches, 4 clears and 9 people alive, for FF as scum to win he has to get every single townie that's not one of the clears including myself mslynched, that's not something I'm particularly worried about given well I'm never getting mslynched here for one and for two I'm very happy to go Massive->FF, heck I might even be willing to go FF->Massive. I moreso just want to win this as cleanly as possible, I don't want this going to a F3 or even a F5 if we don't need it to. So narrowing down the scum teams that exist is pretty fucking important in doing that.

So do you first off agree that FF-Eeve isn't a thing? If so what do you think of the possibility of FF-Massive and FF-Frogger?

[ReplacedIn]

Where I'm at is this, there's 4 players where the two scum are inside off, if you remove Eeve-FF as a possibility and remove Massive-Frogger which I'm mostly comfortable doing at the moment you and up with a situation of 1 Scum inside Eeve/FF & 1 Scum inside Massive/Frogger in all situations.

If I'm having to make a decision on who to lynch between Eeve/FF, I'd be lynching Eeve based on play in that I've found a decent chunk of FF's reactions towards all of this some degree of townish and scum read Eeves complete lack of attempt to gamesolve but when factoring in the guilty / roleblocked type section I'd probably lynch FF over her and not feel great about it. It's a much simpler decision when it comes to Massive/Frogger for me in that while I've scum read the LMK slot I think there's a

lot

more that points towards Massive being mafia then there is Frogger and think Massive fits with the other duo more than Frogger does.

If you disagree with any of this I'm happy to talk it out.

[ReplacedIn]

Although shit that occurs to me. If Arona is telling the truth, then ReplacedIn suddenly is looking an awful lot more like the mafia godfather - since arona survives weak copping him. Which... even trying to figure out the basics of his setup hurts me deep inside, but I feel like it's a thoughtful worth posting.

Existence of my role is due to LUV's and yours in that it's to reduce the amount of players clear-able as VT's in his case and town in yours -- if every townie was a VT it'd be even more of a broken game in that it'd be highly likely to have 4+ clears come D2 and ~6 or so (autowin) on D3. It's not a good way to balance it in that it's still a massively town sided setup with mechanics involved that seem wonky and outside of what I think should be in a normal game but it's the avenue they've taken.

Think you should be able to recognise that I'm always town here just via play alone even ignoring how genuinely I'd claimed.

[ReplacedIn]

Effectively tldr so far is GreyICE & Mulch are always town, Arona is very probably town, iDanny is probably town but it's not a read I feel very good about at all. I've got weakish scum reads on Eve & LMK's slot, would like people to talk more about the former and I'm hoping the latter is self-resolving.

Unvote, Vote:Chickadee

FF very probably still needs to die tomorrow, think people need to look more at Eeve/Massive too, particularly the latter has had some problematic posts today.

Need to not forget about Frogger too.

Slightly tilting that the 4 players I had as town reads yesterday are exactly the 4 clears at the moment and 4 players I had as players to focus on and solve are the same pool I'm looking at today, had the claim/night action situation panned out even marginally differently to the extent where just one from that pool of 4 was sorted or solved from it then this would be significantly less painful. Still think a scum lynch today means we probably win from NAR tonight. Still think Massive is our best chance at that, Eeve scum reading Massive but never doing a single thing about it, FF choosing to go Arona over Massive and not really paying too much attention to him are both things that easily make those pairings work even ignoring how obvscum Massive is by himself.

And with that I'm out for the day, decent chance I won't have net access tomorrow.

[ReplacedIn]

Mulch, we need you and iDannyboy to finish the mass-claim here.

[ReplacedIn]

Also retract my statement of Frogger-Massive being unlikely as a pairing, Froggers "want to question Eeve after Mulch claims" rather than voting Massive, his strongest scum read at a time where the claims and results should increase the strength of that read feels...ugly.

Benefit of you claiming is us having a much better idea about the setup and any information here is good information? We're at a position we're a scum lynch today wins us the game almost always and mafia likely are going to have to focus their night actions on GI/Arona so there's little downside to you not claiming.

[ReplacedIn]

Spoiler:

That's what I think of this setup. So many stupid interactions.

PEdit: Or not?

[ReplacedIn]

Loyal Cop, Neapolitan, Weak Doctor, Ascetic v Goon + 2??? is the setup barring iDanny claiming a PR which I don't think he will.

So yeah, all of [Arona/GI/Mulch/iDanny] are confirmed town officially.

Really think Massive is the play.

[ReplacedIn]

No fuck you, I was always voting massive. You yourself said we were waiting for the massive claim. You trying to put this on me is actually pretty sketch because I was holding my vote to wait for the mass claim AS WAS YOUR FUCKING WISH

Was waiting on Massives claim to talk about the setup speculation completely, not to vote. If you'd actually read how the day has played out I'd voted him before he actually claimed. And by "Put this on you", you mean not entirely rule out Massive-You being a pairing which I'd previously done so? The whole "Going to ask Eeve a question" felt like a set up to vote there over massive, obviously not what you've done but reading it at the time was something that I'd contemplated.

Your over-reaction here is pretty mind-boggling. Like, not even remotely understanding how you can be frustrated here.

THIS IS SO FUCKING MISLEADING

Loyal cop, weak doc, macho Neapolitan vs ascetic goon goon is balanced too

holy fuck RI might be fucking scum

UNVOTE:

You realise in the setup you're proposing that FF would have to be mafia, right? You also realise that I'm stating what I'm looking at re; the setup from my position which is y'know how I'm meant to assess it. I think there's a very high chance one if not both of the remaining mafia are some form of weakened PR.

[ReplacedIn]

Because the only fucking people who have scumread me are GI and RI and that's fucking it. And GI is basically conftown and now RI is pulling shit asking people to wait for a massclaim now telling me I'm fucking scum.

This isn't even remotely what's transpired.

[ReplacedIn]

Frogger, lets run down what's happened here;

I've stated that with the 2 scum being inside a pool of 4 players there's technically 6 scum teams for me to assess. Then did some hard ISO reading and completely ruled out FF-Eeve being a scum team and thought that Yourself-Massive were less likely based on the way you were setting up to push on him, the comment from you re; wanting to talk to Eeve after Mulch claimed read as you potentially setting up an excuse to push Eeve over Massive, a play that'd make plenty of sense with Massive as a partner thus I retracted my comment about You-Massive not being a possible team. How exactly is that difficult to understand or comprehend?

It's far less a "Froggers action there makes me think he's likely scum" and more a "I think that negates my reasoning for ruling out that scum team".

[ReplacedIn]

Not a setup, it's me trying to tie eevee to either massive or FF based of their reaction to my Q but alls lost now.

I BASE my game off tying people together. That's how I won best town in MAFIACEPTION. I drove that town because I tied titus to pepto.

yeah I preflip associate. I self-meta. That's my fucking game and I don't give a fuck if you all think it's bad. It works for me.

Then we're very different type of players, I think there's some gain in attempt to narrow down worlds and scum teams and keeping in mind who doesn't work together or who might but think that's only just one tool to use and not the main one to focus on barring certain situations. I think pointing out how X can work with lots of the universally agreed upon scum reads is solid, I think making a case by tying X to Y pre-flip is bad play. Ultimately I'm looking at read progressions and players thoughts and seeing how they flow v how they've acted upon them. Anyway I don't really want to get into a huge theoretical discussion plus I doubt I'd change your mind on it. I think there's a huge disconnect between Massive's read on MMM, how he interacted with him, what he did with the read and what he did in general throughout D2. The way he handled the situation is one that I struggle seeing from town but think makes a lot of sense as mafia.

Mulch is definitely town for lots of reasons, the most obvious one being Arona targeting him, how he's talked about self-meta is not one of the reasons though.

[ReplacedIn]

@Mulch - I think Frogger/FF is one of the lesser likely teams in that I think Frogger would recognise that hard-defending FF in the manner he did means he never wins this game given a) His slot was already scum read and b) FF is inevitably getting lynched before end-game which means it'd be up to Frogger to win it in a 3 way, him making that move makes that near impossible. I also think the unvote/turnaround to him considering FF now is a really weird way to go about it if that's the team.

Personally of the opinion that if FF is mafia here it's with exactly Massive and can't really argue that FF is a "bad" lynch because there's plenty of strong logic that points towards him being mafia, the PoE pool alone makes it very plausible that he is and his constant self-voting feels gambit-y and rather difficult to fathom if he's town. That said took a skim read of his meta (re; his lynch in Gay Mafia 2) and he seems to have a very vindictive attitude when suspected as town and would rather go Massive in that I can see him with all three other players inside the pool, find his posts themselves far scummier and think his interactions with the flipped scum both directions are a strong point towards him being mafia, hoping a Scum!Massive flip means NA's win the game tonight.

Then you're never going to like playing with me.

And probably won't again, which is fine? But lets focus on

this

game for now please. Run me through exactly where you're at right now, given you contemplating FF being mafia is a pretty big change to before. Convince me this from you is actually you genuinely trying to gamesolve.

[ReplacedIn]

Strongly recommend Arona flip a coin tonight, heads protect me, tails investigate whoever he says he wants to, or just pick one.

Don't think that's required? If we ever get a scumflip here Arona should always be on you since 1 more clear wins us the game. If mafia have a roleblocker active tonight it doesn't matter what he does mafia roleblock him and shoot you, if mafia don't have a roleblocker tonight then he saves you and you investigate a VT.

[ReplacedIn]

Arona, there's never a world Greys scum here imo. Also there's no real gain from protecting me tonight, it doesn't create a clearance and isn't worth the 50% chance of mafia just shooting Grey. I'd rather you just always be on GreyICE here, think doing so is the optimal play since there's no chance for false clearances (ie. You stating you're targeting Massive, mafia shooting GreyICE and roleblocking you) and making sure he's alive tomorrow is important.

[ReplacedIn]

Fwiw, I think if we're lynching FF and he flips mafia just having Arona on GI and GI on Eeve leads towards that auto-win clearance that we'd need. In fact I think Arona should be on GI regardless of FF's flip. If he flips town I don't really have a recommendation inside Eeve/Frogger for GI to target but should be one of the two.

Still think the most likely person to flip mafia in the game is Massive atm though. Would bet a lot on him flipping scum here.

[ReplacedIn]

Went into this already, there's risk of a false-clearance via a RB'er if you target anyone that's Non-GI, we're in a position where we only need 1 clearance to win the game, making sure that GreyICE is alive given he can't get false-clearances is the optimal strategy.

@GI, lets play a fun little game, below are the 6 possible scum teams, rank them from 'most' to 'least' likely whoever has the exact scum team the highest up wins.

1) Massive-Eeve
2) FF-Massive
3) Frogger-Massive
4) FF-Frogger
5) Frogger-Eeve
6) FF-Eeve

(Mine are already ranked there)

[ReplacedIn]

If FF flips scum we have Arona on GI and GI targeting you, think in that world he'll get a clearance on you and it'll be game won (Enough clears to kill every unclear including myself) by going Massive->Frogger or Frogger->Massive with a lynch to spare, personally think it ends upon Massives lynch there.

[ReplacedIn]

FF flipping town is where it gets messier in that Arona needs to be on GI and GI needs to make a decision between targeting either yourself or Frogger but the decision will ultimately probably be pointless in that if FF is flipping town that's confirmation that scum have some form of roleblocker (Most likely an odd-night one in that world) meaning we probably end up with a situation where either Arona is roleblocked and GI shot, or GI roleblocked and Arona shot with no actual information gleaned tomorrow. Lynching through yourself, Frogger and Massive wins the game there but it'll be a lot more drawn out and far less locked in.

Personally think lynching Massive over FF is the play today, we'll hit scum a lot higher % of the time there.

[ReplacedIn]

GreyICE, Mulch claimed VT, she said the Commuter claim was a joke. At least order the 6 that I've put forward for us to compare post-game.

Do find it pretty hillarious that I think you've worked out who I am and are somehow still paranoid of me given I'm pretty woeful as scum and have been pretty transparently obvious town but meh, I don't think it'll cause any real harm here given the position we're in.

[ReplacedIn]

That was one of the dumbest self-hammers I've seen, was carving out time on the weekend to make a big push on Massive then and instead had absolutely nothing to do.

I'm assuming that Arona wasn't silly enough to not be on GI so I'm imagining scum have an odd-night roleblocker here.

We're absolutely lynching this today;

Vote: Massive

[ReplacedIn]

Suggest people read Post 2027, also look at the following D2 posts from Massive, looks even worse now that we know it's Scum!Chickadee & Town!Fish;

my gut tells me that there's 1 scum in danyboy/massive due to activity.

Can I just ask what, and I'm quoting The Rock here, IN THE BLUE HELL would make you post this about either of us when both of us have more posts than you?

===

"Scum caught for the wrong reasons" -- some players, especially new players, see wagons build on them for what they consider "dumb reasons" (in this case, the push on activity as scummy) and flip out, calling it all manner of poor play and attacking the push. They feel like they're caught but not for anything they've done that's actually scummy, just something unreasonable. It's a thing.

===

Gonna vote FF because I feel like I know what GreyICE gambits look like but I also feel like there's gotta still be other things to do today.

Wha ... what specifically in that post feels fake?

Catching up from 57.

Well I'm caught up.

I don't have any issue with how LUV entered D2 and while I think I would have checked someone I felt 50/50 on rather than someone I was running up D1, I think he is correct that he could have been drowned out starting today, which plays to his mindset to check Chickadee.

LUV -- did it occur to you to breadcrumb your result? Was there ever a concern that, without pushing Chickadee to start D2, if you had died that it could have been interpreted you HAD checked Chickadee N1 but gotten a result matching her claim?

Fish can you talk to me about your progression from scum-Grey (circa the 1v1 in 1309) to maybe-town-maybe-scum (around 1426) to now pretty much 100% town Grey here?

Man I am just getting into too many WIFOM scenarios in my head.

Honestly I could lynch either and honestly I'm so sick of players on this site just being absolute garbage to other players.

[ReplacedIn]

Lynching through Massive->Eeve/Frogger wins the game.

We're not fucking around anymore, time to actually win this game.

[ReplacedIn]

It's more probably Massive-Eeve than it is Massive-Frogger, for a few reasons; one of those indeed being Eeve's voting habits, his vote and reasoning behind it on FF on D2 was pretty atrocious in that he was happy to do so to "confirm there's a roleblocker" which doesn't make much sense as a reason. Him also not really assessing the Chickadee slot that was guilted (Remember LUV pointing out a particular comment of his that was bad in this regard) is similarly bad. That said we're lynching Massive first and then working from there.

[ReplacedIn]

There's been a lot said from players, including myself this game which probably need not have been said but best not to focus on that right now and instead just focus on winning the game. Starting by lynching Massive is the way to proceed. Then spending some deep time going over Eeve v Frogger tomorrow and hoping solving it then, don't think I can deal with another 3 way so pretty important we win this tomorrow. Think a lot of interacting with Frogger tomorrow is the play since I think he's the sort of player that's easier to read via real-time conversations than anything else probably will work.

[ReplacedIn]

Eh, I think it's pretty blatantly obvious that I'm town here from play (This isn't even remotely similar to my scum claim nor do I think I can do or would do a lot I've done this game as scum), claim etc and think I can ObvTown even more if need be. Kind of hoping that Massive flips roleblocker and I become 100% cleared from that though.

[ReplacedIn]

Massive's posts thus far today continue to make it pretty clear he's mafia, him attempting to use VCA to be the sole push on his reasoning behind scum reading both myself and iDannyBoy rather than actually looking at anything really relevant in the game is a pretty big scum tell. As is him ignoring the fact that iDannyboy is

hard clear

in that GreyICE can only get results on town, he has a clear on iDannyboy, there's zero chance he can be scum him. His avoidance of stating a read on Eeve/Frogger who he should be looking at if he's town isn't him attempting to actually scumhunt.

Eeves posts today are similarly awful in that he's not attempted to actually state and reads nor has he voted his scum read Massive. Him instead spending his time questioning why Mulch (a conftown player) that likes to hammer in games likes to do that isn't really moving the game forward.

@Eeve, fypov if you're town it should be 2 scum inside Massive/Frogger/Me, right? What are you doing to determine who it is? You've got a town read on me and a scum read on Massive from your prior posts, why aren't you voting Massive or actually stating any reads today?

[ReplacedIn]

I feel confident masive is scum.

I've been pretty confident of this for a while. You have no idea how infuriated I was getting to work last Friday and seeing the lynch.

Don't particularly see a lot of reason to prolong the day here.

[ReplacedIn]

I'm pretty sure I could dance naked in front of my picture window and ReplacedIn would call it "a pretty clear indicator massive is scum"

Only one way to find out, start dancing!

Well u just said all my possible reads? Also i dont want mulch to hammer

Incase scum supersaint? Is that a possibility?

Um, what? Scum supersaint is never going to be a role inside a normal game, that much I can virtually guarentee you. Also if the only reads you have right now is a town read on myself and a scum read on Massive you'd have to think Frogger is scum via PoE and you're not really doing a lot to get either Massive or Frogger lynched here? Like again I'm looking at your play and wondering 'what's he doing to lynch mafia / win the game' and the answer is nothing? I understand and acknowledge you're a newer player but at this point you should either be a) Voting Massive or b) Elaborating on your reads / explaining why you dont want to do a), you're doing neither.

[ReplacedIn]

Nothing is technically "clear" in a setup where we dont have the exact rolelist

iDanny boy is 100% clear, there's no 'if's or 'buts' about it, role interactions means it's impossible for him to be mafia here. With it being confirmed that GI was roleblocked N1 the only way Mulch can be mafia is if mafia have a second roleblocker that was on Arona or if Mulch is a scum commuter or something of the sort, the odds of that are so slim and frankly it'd make the game design even worse that I'm just willing to lose to that ever happening and wipe my hands of it. Plus Mulch is pretty ObvTown via play herself and via interactions that it's a non-issue.

[ReplacedIn]

Also don't think I elaborated on it earlier as much as I'd have liked but Froggers stance on Massive yesterday with him stating a scum read on him when Arona was unclear and then when Arona was cleared and the PoE pool looked much smaller not helping me in actually getting Massive lynched is a very very very big scum tell if I'm indeed correct on Massive being mafia. It's him knowing the suspect pool is so small that he needs the FF mslynch to happen and if Massive is a roleblocker or something of the sort with Aronas claim he cannot afford to buss anymore since doing so puts him in auto-loss. So frankly if Massive is a roleblocker I'd say that Froggers more probable mafia than Eeve.

Anyway good with a hammer now.

[ReplacedIn]

Was expecting mafia to shoot Arona there, mafia shooting Mulch probably makes this game a little easier since Mulch was someone that could have voted anywhere? /Think/ the night kill makes more sense coming from Alisae not being aware of the game state but then again think Alisae would at least bother to read the thread so probably won't read too much into it. Just to make it completely clear in case you've not caught up yet Alisae (and well in general since I don't want to have to waste time having to explain this again to anyone) iDannyBoy and Arona are now 100% clear, there's zero chance of either being mafia given that the last remaining scum is confirmed to either be a full roleblocker or an odd night roleblocker. This means that GreyICE having a Loyal Cop innocent on iDannyBoy clears him and Arona claiming Weak Doctor with it being #3 actual power role inside the setup and it combining with the Macho aspect of LUV's role always makes him town. I'm an ascetic here, everyone else has already claimed and is a VT.

This really is as straightforward as us having 3 'suspects' and 2 lynches and I think it should be blatantly obvious at this stage I'm town for a multitude of really strong reasons (Manner and genuiness that I claimed combined with the fact that my role is very obviously required setup balance wise to reduce the odds of each of the three investigative roles could clear different players N1 and turn the game into autowin D2, interactions with the flipped scum and my slot in both directions particuarly Massive<->Myself not being W/W especially when we discussed his MMM read D1 and how he reacted yesterday towards me scum reading him, genuine scumhunting/transparency from my posts alone, it's well beyond anything I could do as scum and if I really

have

to I can reveal my main and confirm that meta if need be) which I could probably write an essay on if I had to which means as long as I don't get mslynched here this game is literally unloseable.

I'd rather this not have to go to a 3 way though and will be dedicating some time in the next few days to try and make sure we nail this down and win this today both because I don't want to even bring in the 1% chance I get lynched here and I kind of want to feel like I've deserved the win because while my reads were fairly solid from D2 onward (Had Massive nailed, realised and pushed through Chickadee > FF, wasn't particularly enthused about lynching FF yesterday and was doing everything I could to try and swing Massive instead as I was really second guessing FF being mafia which I'm pretty proud of given I'm normally one that favours mechanical information/odds, had a town core of Mulch/iDanny/Arona/Grey before Arona had claimed and before Grey had an innocent on iDanny), my D1 play wasn't particularly stellar and I'm sure GI won't let me live down the misread between MM<->Tchill postgame.'

[ReplacedIn]

Alisae, really need some real transparent-posting from you if you're town here given LMK had pretty much zero content before he replaced out and Frogger didn't have any participation on D2 and limited one on D3 so it's a fairly empty slot for the most part with some of the few things it's done (LMKs reads wall, Froggers lack of help getting Massive lynched and turnaround on FF) not being great, the latter example something I really think makes plenty of sense coming from mafia in that the timing of it happening after Arona was cleared feels like scum knowing their options are being closed in on them. Know there's not really anything you can to do answer for Frogger or LMK's actions so regardless of the actual alignment you've replaced into it's not an ideal situation but what you can do is actually show some genuine analysis/thoughts/reads while you're catching up, so if you're town here just focus on scumhunting.

Eeve, I need you to really start running me through some of your read progressions throughout this game and explain what you specifically were doing to actually move this game towards a win because your content post-D1 is pretty non-existent, your stance around Massive isn't great nor is your attitude on the FF v Chickadee situation. So if you're town here a few things I want you to explain are a) You suggested you weren't as confident in Mulch being town yesterday, obviously that's incorrect but I want to understand

why

you were thinking that, b) I want you to explain your stance on Massive in that you scum read him but didn't vote him on two consecutive days until forced to nor did you really assist him attempting to get him lynched, if you thought he was scum where was the commitment behind it, c) Run me through what you thought "learning there's a roleblocker" actually gained us on D2 since that was part of your reasoning behind voting FF there which is pretty ??? in that mslynching to learn a scums role isn't the way to go about it and lastly d) Run me through the "meta" you had on MMM that made you think he was town, this is a question I've asked you previously and got no answer about so really want you to spend a bit of time and explain to me where your head was at with him.

iDannyboy/Arona, wouldn't particularly minding you guys going through and taking a look at Massive<->Eeve and Massive<->LMK/Frogger interactions for us to bounce off about/discuss sometime soon but would prefer you guys not posting your analysis and thoughts on it until Eeve/Alisae have posted their thoughts there. If there's anything you want me to go over/elaborate on as well let me know.

[ReplacedIn]

Arona is never fake here for a few reasons, a) He's pretty obvious town for how he's played, b) The manner he bread-crumbed his role doesn't come from scum and c) If Aronas scum that means this setup is 10-3 with the town power being Loyal Cop, Macho Neapolitan, Asceitc v Roleblocker + 2 Goons which uh, yeah, no. That's not something that's ever going to happen. Existence of Aronas role fits perfectly with LUV's and Arona claiming before any sort of mass-claim occurred just seriously never means he's mafia here. So yeah, you can drop that Arona = scum theory completely. We're also never no lynching.

I'm

the ascetic, not Arona and I'd claimed I softed it before any claims occurred whatsoever this game and hard claimed it within ~2 minutes of GreyICE claiming while I was at work, can go and take a look at the context behind it but should be blatantly obvious from it that I'm town. And existence of an Ascetici is to minimise the chances of LUV/GI's role getting clears N1 to make the game autowin, just an ounce of logic and setup speculation pretty much confirms me as town but my play should do so as well. Literally a case of going Eve->You or You->Eeve wins the game 100% of the time.

[ReplacedIn]

GreyICE investigated FF N1 and got a "No result", there's 100% confirmation that there's a roleblocker in the game and is the scums final role.

The more you continue with the "arona could be mafia and we only have 2 real PRs!" the more I"m just going to shrugvote you.

So if you're town and actually going to refuse to read the pages in the game (Why the fuck replace in then???) then the least you can do is ISO Eeve/Myself/Massive/MMM/Chickadee and state reads.

[ReplacedIn]

All night actions thus far;

GreyICE investigates FF N1 - No result, LUV investigates Chickadee N1 (She'd claimed VT D1) - Result; She's not a VT, Arona was on Mulch N1

GreyICE & LUV claimed D2. LUV died N2.

GreyICE investigates iDannyBoy N2 - Town result, Arona was on GreyICE N3, Arona claimed D3.

So we know that Grey was RB'ed N1 and Arona was RB'ed N3 which means either scum have a full roleblocker that intentionally no-roleblocked GreyICE D2 to make FF look worse but by doing so they give us a clear in iDannyBoy so while it's plausible it's the lesser likely option or scum have an odd night roleblocker.

[ReplacedIn]

I've played mafia for ~10 years and have designed over 200 setups, I'm part of the NRG. You're not going to 'teach me' anything about game design so don't bother.

[ReplacedIn]

1a) Don't need to explain how his play is town when he's clear for other reasons, b) Weak doctors absolutely do need to breadcrumb, they target scum they die, they need to have that information left behind, it's not the role they're crumbing but the target, manner that Arona did it here doesn't come from mafia. c) Well aware how mastin designs games, well aware how games are designed, I'm saying that without Arona being town there's not enough town power to have this setup run, not even remotely enough and if the town power is this limited there's no roleblocker in the setup which we know there is, Aronas never mafia here. d) If Arons mafia and sees LUV dying as a macho he's going to expect a protective PR in the game and isn't going to claim one knowing he'd likely be CC"ed doing so. He's just never mafia here and the more you try and sway it as a possibility the worse you're looking.

2) You're not even remotely attempting to actually scumhunt or solve the game here, I've made it very clear where you need to focus, what you need to read, you're not doing any of that. If you're town here you're just continuing to prove you've learned nothing from the Newbie games I've seen you in. And I'l vote when I"m actually ready, I was planning on playing this day pretty slowly and treating it as a 3 way where I had to determine who was scum inside yourself/eeve as a sort of fun-challenge to myself.

[ReplacedIn]

Like this is literally a situation where it's a fact the final scum is between Eeeve/You/Myself.

There's not that much reading to be done, so at least actually y'know ISO those people and the flipped scum if you're town here.

[ReplacedIn]

You're clearly incapable of actually reading anything properly.

I'm saying I've seen

you

in newbie games, not that you're a newbie. I've even offered you advice, you've not taken an ounce of into account.

Aronas never mafia here, he's never getting lynched here, you attempting to focus on him feels like scum trying to open up another option. You then proceeding to vote me when I'm trying to close that option down to you feels incredibly scum motivated and not you actually attempting to assess the game.

But I'm fine waiting for you to get around to ISO'ing those players and actually posting real thoughts, think that combined with Eeve's response should ultimately make the decision relatively straight forward for me.

[ReplacedIn]

You've replaced into a slot which had 4 posts D1, only 1 being really content based, had 1 prod dodge post by it's replacee on D2 before posting some content and flaking on D3. Stop for a second and put yourself in our position, you're effectively in a slot that's done really nothing throughout the entire game here, I've tried to put the gamestate and situation as clearly to you as possible because ideally I'd like to resolve who it is between Eeve and yourself as easily as possible and given you both don't look great that's not a fun task here, you're the one that's constantly tried to push this in a tangent that's irrelevant and time wasting while you've not even done the reading to back up that stance (re; Arona). So, again if you're town just focus on reading the select few players.

[ReplacedIn]

Like we're on D5 now and your slot has officially only played 1 of the day phases so far, you replacing in and saying you won't read the whole game then trying to argue with me about Aronas alignment while you've not even read his ISO or his interactions with the flipped scum is entirely you being unreasonable here.

[ReplacedIn]

Eeve, I need you to really start running me through some of your read progressions throughout this game and explain what you specifically were doing to actually move this game towards a win because your content post-D1 is pretty non-existent, your stance around Massive isn't great nor is your attitude on the FF v Chickadee situation. So if you're town here a few things I want you to explain are a) You suggested you weren't as confident in Mulch being town yesterday, obviously that's incorrect but I want to understand why you were thinking that, b) I want you to explain your stance on Massive in that you scum read him but didn't vote him on two consecutive days until forced to nor did you really assist him attempting to get him lynched, if you thought he was scum where was the commitment behind it, c) Run me through what you thought "learning there's a roleblocker" actually gained us on D2 since that was part of your reasoning behind voting FF there which is pretty ??? in that mslynching to learn a scums role isn't the way to go about it and lastly d) Run me through the "meta" you had on MMM that made you think he was town, this is a question I've asked you previously and got no answer about so really want you to spend a bit of time and explain to me where your head was at with him.

Eeve, would like a response to towards the above questions. If you're someone that 'thinks out loud' would like your unedited thoughts on the game right now too.

[ReplacedIn]

Eeeve, if you're town I need to

understand

why you were thinking what you were thinking so help me help you, so what specifically made you biased to thinking Mulch might be scum? You had a scum read on Massive in Post 1864 but you didn't really help get him lynched at any point, like what happened with your read on him? Can you backup this MMM meta that you used, like got a link that made you feel that way at all that I could take a look at?

[ReplacedIn]

TBH you both seem town to me although i scumreaded BOTH your subs which puts me in an ewwy position here.
Supersaint was me thinking about setup spec and like a fool i asked it here, but similarly i could have asked about a bunch of other possibilities there.
The interactions between you two are Mindsetted town vs freethinking town but either can be scum which is zzz i honestly can't chose one over the other but if im forced to choose i'd say you for ur subs but then again replacedin is a vet and could have easily manipulated town for a while now.

You're going to need to elaborate a little more then this, what specifically do you town read of Aliseas play recently? What did you scum read about Frogger/LMK, same question in regards to me/bomberman. Like I need to see that this is a genuine thought from you rather than you just fencesitting as scum.

Like unfiltered thoughts from you here are appreciated.

Mulchs attitude is one i dislike.
My read on massive was up and down and i wasn't that confident in lynching him

And i can't really link you anything since PS! Is chatroom based so there isn't really anything i can link.

Okay, talk with me about what made you unsure on Massive being mafia because that's not really documented inside your ISO.

[ReplacedIn]

2316 is about Frogger from what I've gathered.

Would like to hear from Arona/iDannyboy soon but finished most of the rereading I wanted to do.

[ReplacedIn]

Yeah, I'll just post where I'm at, don't really see the gain in holding my cards to my chest anymore.

I don't see Aliaes's replace in posts as him genuinely attempting to solve the game or analyse the information that was put forward to him, I think his comments re; Arona and it being a fake claim point towards him trying to open up an avenue to get mslynched given otherwise he's got a difficult task in winning from here, think his reaction towards me shutting down the Arona suggestion doesn't make any sense coming from town but makes plenty from scum.

I'm not seeing him actually take into account or even bother to check back at the manner Arona claimed or anything of the sort, I think that attitude from him directly contradicts how badly he wanted someone to post at day start as in if he was that eager and town I think he'd have done

some

reading prior or done the reading of snippets when directed towards them. I think the night kill makes more sense from him then Eeve in that Eeve making the statement yesterday that he thinks Mulch is possibly where people are wrong (despite her being clear) and then shooting her at night feels like an odd and unlikely progression for scum to make in comparison to Alisae just shooting Mulch not being aware of gamestate whereas I think Eeve just shoots Arona.

Also think the way he's gone about actually interacting with me feels more like him trying to tilt me rather than him attempting to garner a read on me there, his comments particularly the "i'm not going to scumhunt him because that's what you want" is a very ??? comment given he'd want to actually get a solid read on both myself and Eeve if he was town here given it'd be in his own interests there. It's not like it was a leading question or forcing him to come out with a particular stance, just to actually have a well-reasoned read based on the events that have transpired over the game. His other comment of "I think Eeve is town because you're pushing him" is nonsensical in that with 1 scum remaining he has to consider two worlds, a) I'm mafia in which case Eeve isn't' scum because I'm pushing him but town because I'd have to be the mafia or b) I'm town in which case it'd not negate the chances of Eeve being mafia but instead increase it. It's just a bunch of drivel from him. The whole "Lets 1 v 1" at a point where he'd not really read an ounce of the game feels like a scum gambit.

Most of the things he's pointed out inside Evees ISO feel like weaker points and think he's missed more important things like Eeves stances and treatement of both MMM & Massive, do recognise that we both analyse games very differently but would think there'd be even a little focus on that as town and the ultimate stance taken feels like one where he's setting himself up to continue his push on me while leaving himself the opportunity to switch to Eeve if it goes that way.

Also think the way he's interacted with Eeve comes across as him attempting to pocket Eeve rather than read him for the most part and the way he's attempting to discuss Froggers own actions here feels very agenda-driven here, particularly given the '1 v 1' 'Town!FF' elements don't flow smoothly at all.

Chickadees defence of the LMK slot in Post 917 and again in Post 1038 makes plenty of sense as scum defending their roleblocker and doing whatever they can to minimise the chances of there being a wagon swing to have that role lynched D1, it's the most she defends any player in the game outside of LUV which doesn't really count given their circumstances. Argument can be made that she's WK'ing a town slot but the way she went about it didn't really play to give her town-cred upon it's flip or anything of that matter which again points towards it being a W/W thing.

I also think Froggers treatment of Arona/Massive/FF yesterday and the turn around he did makes plenty of sense as mafia, specifically him attempting to tie Arona-Massive together makes sense of him trying to get a mslynch post his partners flip. His reads for instance Post 1960 pre claim by Arona to him fabricating an out in Post 2113 to him considering a scum team of FF/Myself over Massive in Post 2123 has a lot of scum motivation behind it, most specifically being he needs the FF mslynch to go through there otherwise if Massive gets lynched there's potential for FF to be cleared via interactions. His reaction towards me pointing out how Massive/him makes sense feels very over-blown and hard to comprehend if he's town here too.

Think overall there's significantly more that points towards the Alisae slot being mafia here.

Vote: Alisae

[ReplacedIn]

Frog ended yesterday without being on anyone which felt a bit odd idk why he didn't keep his arona/massive lynch on

Froggers non-vote yesterday isn't an issue given he didn't post at all then making it completely null in that regard.

It's his lack of vote on Massive D3 which is the real kicker.

<<< Fixing quote tag. >>>

[ReplacedIn]

Spoiler:

Doesn't yours just mean chick isn't a vt tho

Mulch, chick claimed vt

realizes chick isn't a VT despite claiming VT, yet pushes for a FF lynch because...

Ok here's the thing. We have two claimed guilties. One of them is getting lynched.

I refuse to have the WIFOM claim bullshit going on with a claimed cop last for more than this day. We figure out if the CLAIMED COP is lying today

Makes no sense. What does figuring anything out about the claimed cop have to do with this. What about the macho Neapolitan? This isn't even a reason to go for FF, yet today arona is back on the FF train after actively trying to push for former for reasons that aren't even reasons.

Just conveniently ignores the whole Chick got caught claiming VT, yet can't be VT thing to push the other guilty for a worse reason.

VOTE: Arona

if you think they're both lying why does it matter lmao

oh my god mulch you just said that they're both scum

frustrated scum is frustrated that mulchy is considering that the Chick guilty is a solid guilty, while the FF guilty could have a roleblock.

1618 Arona.

what happens if chick flips town?

Pointless.

If chick is the lynch that's fine tbh

This day needs to end. Any objections to me hammering?

Then is suddenly half baked about a chick lynch and asks to hammer when it's inevitable

massive is scum too

Pushes MMM, but then says "they've given enough" of chicks slot. If you think they are scum, push that harder. Convince others. Do something.

Then the guilty on Chick happens and suddenly no vote, but starts asking LUV if he breadcrumbed and "WIFOM" in my head.

Gonna vote FF because I feel like I know what GreyICE gambits look like but I also feel like there's gotta still be other things to do today.

never follows up on this.

There's no desire from massive to find scum, period.

VOTE: massive

I just see massive and arona yelling at each other about activity, but no attempt to actually sort each other.

also why the hell are we claiming that formerfish is town for pushing chickadee? What else was he supposed to do? The fact that luv guiltied her before formerfish said anything about her negates any talk of intiative tbh

It's not that he pushed for her. It's the *way* he pushed for her. It was different. He pushed hard. Chickadee half assed voted FF. A scum scum interaction is almost always either two half hearted ones because they both got guiltied, or at that point you try to bus the shit out of each other.

FF pushed Uzi to get on chick, even after Uzi said he knew chick was scum yet hadn't voted her. FF could have spun wifom, could have tried to propose things around setup spec. Nope, he went for Chick.

Chick folded and just plopped a vote on FF.

And massive was like "WIFOM I'm confused"

I really think FF is town here guys

scum doesn't want to be lynched here. Scum can't afford to go 2 down at this juncture. There's no way FF is scum here.

So again, if FF's scum here how does that change your reads on them?

If FF is scum, I'll reevaluate those slots like I always do. I play this game on preflips. Always have, always will. Need examples I can give you a million. I've been very right (see my best town performance in MAFIACEPTOIN) and it was me pushing these preflips. I've been very wrong. But we also have a scum flip to work with which gives extra confidence. Add in that chickadee stuff and it's pretty clear both are scum.

If you ignore FF"s alignment entirely what's your reads on the playerlist entirely?

Town:
iDanyboy, Grey, FF, Mulch

lean town:
you

null:
eevee

scum:
massive, arona

VOTE: arona

FF I'd rather vote massive

I want to bite my frog tongue a bit until Mulch confirms if they are claiming or not. Because I don't want to lead eevee one way or the other with what I want to ask them.

VOTE: Massive

@Eevee -- why didn't you vote your highest scumread, massive, as you state.

pedit: hi FF

Loyal Cop, Neapolitan, Weak Doctor, Ascetic v Goon + 2??? is the setup barring iDanny claiming a PR which I don't think he will.

So yeah, all of [Arona/GI/Mulch/iDanny] are confirmed town officially.

Really think Massive is the play.

THIS IS SO FUCKING MISLEADING

Loyal cop, weak doc, macho Neapolitan vs ascetic goon goon is balanced too

holy fuck RI might be fucking scum

UNVOTE:

You realise in the setup you're proposing that FF would have to be mafia, right?

Yes, obviously

that's why I unvoted

It's the above progression that I think is a huge scum tell, him going Arona+Massive are scum together has scum motivation in that he's linking Arona with his partner which allows him to push a mslynch while distancing, then when Arona becomes clear he starts targeting tying Eeve+Massive together and when it looks like it's actually possible that Massive might get lynched he unvotes and suggest that he now thinks the scum tea might be FF/Myself when FF was his strongest town read. It's him needing the FF mslynch to go through. The timing of his read changes there are really really really opportunistic.

[ReplacedIn]

Like his consideration that I could be mafia in that last two posts of his in the spoilered post /having/ to mean that FF was mafia too from him is what doesn't flow naturally, it'd have been significantly more logical for him to consider the scum team to be just myself/eeve or myself/massive but him pulling FF back into the fray when he'd so strongly town read him earlier just screams scum needing to set up to get that mslynch to go through.

Like with Arona claiming and being cleared his win condition as scum went from "Need to get Arona/Eeve/RI lynched to win" to "Need to get FF/Eeve/RI lynched to win or need to get two of them lynched before Massive does". It's a change from him that doesn't flow as town but does as mafia.

[ReplacedIn]

Not particularly interested in getting into a huge wall v wall thing here since I think it detracts from the main points that I'm trying to get across.

Trust that iDanny & Arona will be able to see them.

Will address just a few small things in your recent post though;

1) I'd given you an idea of the gamestate, you were questioning it without going back and attempting to form an opinion based on what actually transpired; attempting to argue X could be scum when you don't even know if you think X is scum is very counter-productive as town but has plenty of scum motivation in that a) It allows you something to talk about, b) It means potentially opening up a mslynch you might not have been able to get previously.

2) Mulch was also cleared via Arona targeting her N1 and not dying on the night we know that GI was roleblocked, it's not really a case of "Mafia shot an unclear over a clear", it's more a case of I think Eeve would have been less likely to shoot Mulch based on his EOD comments, you can argue it's WIFOM and that's true, it's not really the strong point inside my wall. It's something I'm happy to drop to be frank.

3) You decided to replace in and not read the game, that's not something I agree with but can accept given the situation that we're in, was just asking you repeatedly to read the few players ISO's I thought were important and instead you attempted to belittle me like I'm someone that has no idea on setup design. Was trying to be as reasonable with you as possible despite wanting to swear when I saw you'd replaced in and being tempted to state my reads at daystart and replace out.

[ReplacedIn]

I don't think you anticipated the backlash behind your Arona discussion at all, I think you thought it'd have been town read as 'considering possibilities' and had you actually gone about it in a fashion where you'd reread Aronas claim and brought up specifics about it that you disliked or at really any sort of backing behind it whatsoever I'd not have had an issue with it. The way you went about it though didn't really come across as you genuinely trying to gamesolve though.

And your above post about Bombermans ISO (and several posts of yours above) is just the start of you pushing the only real narrative you have a choice to do at the moment as scum, it's going to be you attempting to construe every post of his to fit with your scum read there, the difference between you how you're assessing that for instance and the Eeve read are miles apart. Pretty much at the point where you're not really 'scumhunting' but instead trying to 'win a debate'.

[ReplacedIn]

See there's a pretty big difference in that;

a) I've read the entire game, have brought up several of these concerns about your slot in the past, have made my thoughts not just on your slot but the entire game very much known and been pretty transparent with those thoughts. So it's not really a "Tunnel" situation as a I've taken a big deep look at the game and think your slot is very probably mafia. You've jumped from replacing into the game to wanting to set up a 1v1 within ~1 hour and are already attempting to push a narrative, there's no genuine consideration of anything from you here. Difference in that regard couldn't be larger.

b) I've taken a look at both directions of Frogger<->Massive, LMK<->MMM/Chickadee and Eeve<->Massive, Eeve<->MMM/Chickadee and pointed out that I think the biggest scum-tell inside the game right now is how Frogger treated the Massive/FF situation on D3, have spoiler-quoted and gone into detail about that. It's less a case of "look at how every post of Alisaes is so bad and scummy!" or "look how scummy ever post from the slot is" and more about the key concerns.

[ReplacedIn]

Effectively what I'm saying is, you've gone from "I scum read ReplacedIn, 1v1" almost instantly upon our interaction at daystart, then gone through Eeves ISO and gone "Probably town but there's some concerns there" then gone "I'm going to make a huge case on ReplacedIn being mafia" and all this before you've even taken a look at my ISO yourself. It's not how town players scumhunt or approach games, it's you having conclusion -> twisting the actual posts inside the game to back up said prior conclusion ie. pushing a prior narrative.

Anyway pretty much just waiting on iDanny & Arona to come in here now, should be pretty clear to them you're scum.

[ReplacedIn]

Pretty much what Danny said; Would argue the most important information inside the game can be found between D2-D4 given we had two scum lynches during that period of time and had situations where people had to discern between lynching FF or Chickadee which we know was T/S now and FF or Massive which we also now know was T/S, there's effectively zero commentary or analysis on Eeves play during that period of time from you.

Anyway just waiting on Arona to turn up and vote Alisea and we can end this game.

[ReplacedIn]

Wait wait Dany so you scumread alisae for not agreeing with your scumread?

Not at all what he's saying; what he's getting at is that Alisaes assessment and read on you ignores most of the more important factors and sections in the game. It's a read that doesn't really fit what's happened and Frogger did a similar thing with FF in that his confidence in FF being town while ignoring the guilty etc that was put forward on him felt like him attempting to pocket FF rather than him scumhunting, the way that he turned around on FF when he became a required lynch was a huge scum tell and I imagine Alisae will do the same in regards to you.

To make it clearer; Froggers stance/confidence/reasoning on FF initially and Alisae's on you is so far away from anyone elses in the game that it's coming from mafia.

[ReplacedIn]

Still pretty much just waiting for Arona to show up and for us to lynch Alisae and end this game. Games pretty much stalled until then.

Alisaes continued assessment of Eeve here doesn't ring natural, there's still zero attempt to look at the flipped scums players ISO's/how the games progressed/actually get around to reading my ISO here but is happy to continue to push this '1v1' and fabricate reasons for scum reading me in the meantime, it's very blatantly scum. Most obvious one is his "Replaced was interacting me with but not trying to analyse me" or "Replaced was talking to me like he knows I'm town" comments when it was pretty clear I tried to come into the day phase with as open a mind as possible and was hoping Alisae's catch up posts and Eeves answers to my questions would help make the decision easier, thus constantly pushing him to try and do the reading and state thoughts. Don't find

any

of his posts/reads even remotely town thus far.

[ReplacedIn]

It's not a specific player-expectation thing, it's a "I expect town players when replacing in to attempt to solve the game because that's their win condition", that's not what I think

any

of your play thus far has been and that's because you've replaced into a scum slot. I don't see your treatment of Eeve or read on him as town, I don't see your treatment of me or read on me as town. I don't see anything of yours as remotely town. And again it's because you're not. I think if you were town you'd have actually pulled yourself back, read the game or at least my ISO and realised I was the person that stopped the FF lynch from happening D2 and pushed it on Chickadee despite 2-3 people wanting to hammer FF and me telling them not to. I think you'd realise I was the person that spearheaded the Massive lynch pretty much single handily. Or you'd at least look at how I claimed rather than just making up "he softed and claimed not to be investigated by all the PR's" because that's not how it happened?

It's because you're scum and we both know you're not winning from here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Eeve & iDanny - Lets just lynch Alisae and end this game and save Mastina potentially having to find a replacement for the Arona slot, he's not posted at the site for some time and the last thing this game needs is it stalling again which is what it's currently doing. It's pretty much a given Alisaes scum at this stage and looks like he's accepted he's not winning from here himself, lack of his follow up to going through my ISO or attempting to do well anything at all doesn't come from town here but is pretty understandable as mafia that knows it's effectively over, it's a shitty situation for him to replace into as scum and certainly one that I'd dread to have happen to me. Think even he himself is just waiting for it to end. Not really any reason not to just end this now.