Mini Normal 1917: :X Mafia (Game over!)

[Grendel]

First game here in a while. I'm aflutter with emotion!

@All

1. What is your preferred alignment?
2. On a scale of one to ten how collaborative a player are you and why?
3. How important is it to take other players personalities into account when forming reads on them?
4. What player do you have the most experience with on this roster?
5. What are you feeling as you enter this mini's D1?

[Grendel]

Hey guys it's me
I'll be your Experienced Leader player for this game.
If you have any questions about how mafia works just let me know and I'll sure to get right back to you with some helpful mafia wisdom and advice haha!

The very first thing you should do in any mafia game is selfvote and continue to selfvote until you're dead.

vote: Cheetory6

(:

Looking forward to playing with all of you!

B-but, Experienced Leader, if everybody self votes how are lynches met?!

[Grendel]

Uhhh Is like to know if there's any issues between players

I don't think there's a player on this playerlist that I'm not going to have an issue with, buddy.

1. What is your preferred alignment?
2. On a scale of one to ten how collaborative a player are you and why?
3. How important is it to take other players personalities into account when forming reads on them?
4. What player do you have the most experience with on this roster?
5. What are you feeling as you enter this mini's D1?

1. I find scum makes me feel

really nervous

, especially early on in the game, so, probably town I think!
2. What kind of fucking question is this. I refuse to answer.
3. I try not to take anything into account when trying to form a read on someone. It's much better when your read is based on absolutely nothing imo.
4. DRK, Gamma and Accountant are all people I've had the misfortune of interacting with before this game.
5. I'm feeling

really nervous

!

B-but, Experienced Leader, if everybody self votes how are lynches met?!

Idk. I'm not your mom and dad.

haha, your funny Mr Cheetory.

Is there a particular reason you subverted the questionnaire?

I do intend to form some light reads off of these once I get more results btw. I won't get into too much right now so I don't sabotage the tells I'm looking for.

[Grendel]

I was worried that you might get something AI off of me if I answered it seriously.

u sound like sassy town trying to toy with me for the lulz

Some of your other recent post also reflect this sentiment. Tho geared towards the roster in general.

So I guess I technically did???

Not that I would expect an experienced player such as yourself to be unable to fake a flippant approach to the game. I just wanna not wifom over this. thx

[Grendel]

Still why is it bad?

The questions don't have enough (any?) of a direct tie to the current game for alignment to meaningfully appear in answers. *insert theory discussion of early game here* so RQS is basically the worst thing ever. Talking about it in general terms is also a bad thing though so etc

I think it works as a nice one trick pony.

Its easier to catch scum when they play along with things they aren't used to. Here random questions is uncommon to the point that I have a decent chance of tripping inexperienced scum, and identifying some town.

I just can't use in with a roster off people that are used to it.

Any case thanks for reinforcing the notion that RQS is bad so I can keep using it to form

better then RVS

reads in the future.

PRE-EDIT
Identifying scum on page one is less likely then hitting scum with a random vote.

So no thank you Klick

[Grendel]

ah the classic game begins
random user 5 does rqs with chagrin
random user 11 calls him out as scum
and then useless rqs debate! fun!
cheetory is acting like he's a god
but no clue who he is, some egotistical rando, yawn
drk calls rqs scummy for not being relevant
and yet his whole mafia theory discussion is an elephant
empty long posts about not making empty long posts
contributing as much to game solving as the host

VOTE: cheetory

Of the Cheetory votes I think this is the one I'm least thrilled with

VOTE: MuttonChop

[Grendel]

...
For talking to be beneficial, the conversation has to be meaningful. Random theory talk/ice-breaking leads to a lot of pointless null discussion.

Yes, but IT'S THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME. It's just an opening to get people to start talking. The worst thing you can do is to discourage people from talking imo. You scum buddies with bunny?

Are you town reading me?

[Grendel]

Unrelated, but I like Grendel even though I heavily disagree with his theory views.

Thanks for the endorsement?

What do you think of Mutten's OP. It read as super detached from the games state. More like checking a box for required partipation then genuine content imo

Are you town reading me?

Let me ask you this, is it a good idea for me to say my read on you right now?

I'd prefer now so we can get more reads on the table.

Was there a reason not to?

[Grendel]

Here random questions is uncommon to the point that I have a decent chance of tripping inexperienced scum, and identifying some town.

Can you outline a situation in which an inexperienced scum slips up due to RQS and gets caught?

Not in detail tonight. Do you need links?

Answer the questions for friendship?

[Grendel]

Catching up.

If things keep going like they were yesterday I may not need to analyze all the RQS responses. --Meaning-- that I've developed some reads I'm confidant in.

[Grendel]

I can already tell this game will be a pain
grendel, link me where rvs has caught scum mayn
drk, suck my left nut
klick I like but
drk not so much
it's ok though I'll be towns crutch
cheetory is town i think
drk is over explaining and being a stink
I like gamma for green
notsure what alignment not sure could be
I think Paul is getting too much shit
but wagoning a newb is fine, at least a bit

https://forum.starmen.net/forum/Storage ... l-Question
Its an offsite game, but used RQS and it helped me identify the players {Dipper, PigsmaskJames} There were other reads I got from it, but I'm not interested in doing leg work for you atm.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=67181
Ironicly my own reads that I got from RQS were less accurate then Egg's observations. Egg called out Masquerade as scum, and was correct. RQS provided a start to that suspicion.

Not interested in sharing results from any games where I was not known as "Grendel"

Anyway, Your reads appear to be:
Town: Klick, Cheetory, Gamma
Null: Unsure
Getting too much flack: Not Puel
Scum: Grendel, DRK

Can you explain what Not Peul getting too much flack means for your read on Accountant? As they led that pressure.

let's do a pbpa before I sleep
rqs, fuck off creep
le hilarious shitpost, you should be a comedian
more buddying of cheeto, the votes should be stampedin
oh look, third post in a row about cheeto
and more buddying... not tryna repeat though
67 is pretty gross in a different way
inventing some b.s. about rqs catching scum today
the pedit itself is even worse I think
but people discredit lamist as a tell so I won't make a stink
oh look, he's not thrilled with me, nice reasoning bro
and now the reasoning in 92... gross
I'm detached from the game state? checking boxes? fuck off
your rqs is what made the "game state" aloft
95 wording is really weird
pbpa out, my vote stays herr

The crux of your case against me looks like "Grendel is Buddying Cheetory", "Grendel's reasoning is gross" and "Grendel is voting me, Belh!"

--Elaborate on why these things are scummy to you--

I'm not sure if it means anything AI yet, but I am interested at the contrast in tone between these posts and your first. I want to jump on it and say that its scum over compensating for getting called out. But part of me feels that your emotion is genuine in said posts.

DO you have much offsite experience Mutton?

[Grendel]

@Death Row Cat
I actually disagree on post 94

Accountant what is your actual position on doing the RQS?

Gamma is approaching this line of questioning is very inline with how I have moved discussion through RQS in the past as town. More importantly I don’t think its something that Gamma would do with the expectation of getting town read by anyone. His thinking isn’t restricted with the purpose of looking town. Meaning he is more likely to be town.

I think Gamma active lurks a lot. I think there was only a couple games with him where he truly stayed on the ball.

Pre-edit

@Accountat

I opened in a manner that I thought would be conventionally pro-town looking so I could lurk later. More importantly, I was scared of using RQS around players like RC, Frogger, and JayReed.

[Grendel]

I think Gamma active lurks a lot. I think there was only a couple games with him where he truly stayed on the ball.

*Games I played with Gamma

[Grendel]

What do you think of Mutten's OP. It read as super detached from the games state. More like checking a box for required partipation then genuine content imo

I disagree. Mutton's OP was perfectly fine. You probably mixed it up with Paul's OP.

I think that Not Paul’s worst offense was only partipating in the RQS and not commenting on the game state itself. Which is a moderately scummy reaction to RQS. His answers also seemed oddly insecure. The self vote is just null, and silly.

Spoiler:

First game here in a while. I'm aflutter with emotion!

@All

1. What is your preferred alignment?
2. On a scale of one to ten how collaborative a player are you and why?
3. How important is it to take other players personalities into account when forming reads on them?
4. What player do you have the most experience with on this roster?
5. What are you feeling as you enter this mini's D1?

1. Never been a scum but I want to play as one. I like knowing who is what alignment.

2. Im pretty sheepy but occasionally I try to form my own reads and fail miserably. Probably a solid 7.

3. Mehh. Personality can be faked. If you know them really well/played with them a lot then sure I guess you should take it into account.

4. I have very little (like none) experience with anyone but GE and muttonchop I am currently am in a game with.

5. Sleepy. Its 9 pm here and I need to wake up early. Gnight.

VOTE: NotTheRealPaul

I think what stood out to me about mutton was that he was incredibly detached his first post was, so much so that the points of discussions he highlighted looked stretched. His vote seemed less like, “I’m voting scum”, and more like, “I’m voting whoever is getting attention.” ei Cheetory

I guess standing back from them now Not Paul’s entrance looks as scummy as mutton’s entrance.

Muttons dynamic also started changing dynamically with his next posts. I'm gnawing on what that means currently.

[Grendel]

@grendel

I don't know your alignment. You seem to want to get people playing and don't nitpick WIFOM details so far. Could be scum, but seem Town so far.

I didn't have time last night to point it out but, Unsure sounds like paranoid town right here. Plus his reads add up. If I’m a town read for him then it makes since from his perspective to suspect the two people most critical of my approach to the game. Realistically I find it unlikely that Klick x DRK would be a thing, but it does show that Unsure is thinking.

VOTE: DeathRowKitty

Feel pretty good about kitty being mafia. Either shit-town with anti-town agenda that wants to paint Townies as mafia or mafia just trolling along. Either way, don't think I'd miss her even as Town.

So that's your bright response? Tell me just not to scum read someone and act condescending?

Wow, scummy or just shit town.

Post like these really irk me however. I hate it when players justify a read by implying that "If there not scum then they're bad town". Its like distancing oneself from the cadaver.

The thing is that I see this behavior from inexperienced players trying to convince themselves and others that they are right. I used to believe that the behavior was scummy, but I never got enough evidence the indicates its a legit tell.

Any case its a read that Notsure is clearly emotionally invested in. I should look at DRK next to read her alignment before I start talking unsure about his read.

[Grendel]

I was wanting to avoid RC, and Frogger as much as possible.

I could tell JR was predisposed to scum read me from the start.

RQS usually garners more attention then going off and scumhunting by myself.

[Grendel]

Oh i misspelled sacred as scared lol.

That explains the "???"

[Grendel]

tbh I was looking forward to playing with ben. I like playing with older players, even if they're probably out of practice.

I guess he peeked at the current site meta and got frightened off?

@Gamma

Never played with Not_mafia, I think I read some games he was in tho, is a big trolly poster?

[Grendel]

When he comes in with more content I look forward to seeing your method in action.

I'm not a fan of trying to sort that kind of player.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

hmmm

Mutton's recent posts feel genuine.

Pre-EDIT

How dare... meee?

[Grendel]

Oh i misspelled sacred as scared lol.

That explains the "???"

So... when you were Mafia, you were

sacred

of using RQS around certain players...???

Scared

makes sense in that sentence - if you had reason to be concerned that using RQS in front of those players would lead to you being outed as scum. But I don't know how to even parse the word 'sacred' in that sentence structure. Could you perhaps elaborate on your meaning?

I was wanting to avoid RC, and Frogger as much as possible.

I could tell JR was predisposed to scum read me from the start.

RQS usually garners more attention then going off and scumhunting by myself.

RC, and Frogger had fresh town meta of me playing a game where I didn't RQS, or open with anything notable really. Thought I should keep that in line and not introduce something unexpected

The "???" was in reference to Accountant here.

More importantly, I was scared of using RQS around players like RC, Frogger, and JayReed.

???

What did you need this info for?

Catching up.

If things keep going like they were yesterday I may not need to analyze all the RQS responses. --Meaning-- that I've developed some reads I'm confidant in.

That's good!

Mind sharing them?

Right now my reads are:

Cheetory6, Gamma Emerald, notsure, Accountant,

MuttonChopMagic, Not_Mafia, Hiraki, CCC, Klick, DeathRowKitty,

Backhand, NotTheRealPaul,

My scum reads aren't especially strong, but I am p confidant in all my town reads.

The newly subbed in players are the dead null on the list of course.

[Grendel]

My current reads:

Towniest of the Town:
CCC

Slightly Townish:
Backhand, Cheetory

Mostly Neutral:
Accountant, Gamma, Grendel, Notsure, Raya36

Neutral but annoying:
MuttonChopMagic

Slightly scummy:
DeathRowKitty, Klick, NotTheRealPaul

The only one of these reads that's really got any strength at all is my own read, and that's only because I've seen my own role PM. But that's more or less my thinking so far.

I think I'm happy leaving my vote where it is for the moment.

What backhand doing way up there?

[Grendel]

egopost

Hi Hiraki!

Remember me from Chosen mafia?

[Grendel]

I think most of last night's discussion is hard to parse. A problem with theory discussion (not that I've never been guilty of doing it) is that people will generally be honest about their theory thoughts and even if you disagree, your feelings about RQS are probably not scum or town indicative.

As I said above though, CCC is pretty obviously town. Think Cheetory and DRK have done a good job of trying to move forward, slight townreads there.

Everyone else somewhere in the middle.

Leaning Scum:

MCM is obnoxious and going to be really hard to read, OMGUS voted grendel, we could do worse.

I agree accountant's VI post is more "gotcha" than real but it did ping me, I'm not forgetting about it.
Raya was a little on the defensive side, would like her to come back and catch up.

The more I reread MCM's stuff the less I like it. I don't believe that he believes that rqs is actually a scumtell.

Vote MCM

idk, when I read this it looks like Back Hand taking advantage of Mutton's speech gimmick.

"Player x is mildly annoying, and there are ppl voting him. Sounds like a safe place to start."

VOTE: BackHand

[Grendel]

Just as a general question for everyone - is having around one in three players Mafia a reasonable ratio?

Which, with thirteen players, would mean four Mafia?

Players are reasoning that CCC is too straight a player to say the above as scum. I'd argue that he is too straight laced to say that period. It takes ten seconds to look at finished games and see the town scum ratios. I just don't see a data centric player like CCC, a player who game revolves around tangible facts, not taking to time to do some set up research to re-familize himself with site meta. :/

I'm not saying that CCC is mafia here. I do believe that this is something CCC is capable doing as ether alignment for town cred. I have experience of CCC using his meta as a popular D1 lynch to dissuade lynch rallying on him as both alignments. This situation seems like a parallel to me.

[Grendel]

Glanced over DRK. Her reaction is pretty text book for her era of player on this site. I think that calling RQS thee worst thing ever is an exaggeration tho. Don't really feel her Gamma read. Her position on Mutton seemed to be mild interest in his alignment. Unsure interactions are weird b/c it looked like she wasn't so much scum reading him as lecturing him.

Not Feeling Great on Kitty... maybe I just need to pow wow with her when she gets back? We are really on the same page reads wise I think.

Where did Klick go?

[Grendel]

Grendel, let's talk about your strong tr of Gamma.

Whats on your mind?

[Grendel]

Grendel, do you think personality is important in obtaining reads?

It think its moderately important.

Sometimes there is context that makes somebody more/less likely to be scum due to their personality, play style, tics, etc

Like if Masian was getting hung for posting in nothing but walls you'd know that's an invalid (non-ai) reason to lynch her, and you'd stop the lynch.

[Grendel]

Grendel, let's talk about your strong tr of Gamma.

Whats on your mind?

Why the tr?

I touched on one of the bigger reasons here

@Death Row Cat
I actually disagree on post 94

Accountant what is your actual position on doing the RQS?

Gamma is approaching this line of questioning is very inline with how I have moved discussion through RQS in the past as town. More importantly I don’t think its something that Gamma would do with the expectation of getting town read by anyone. His thinking isn’t restricted with the purpose of looking town. Meaning he is more likely to be town.

I think Gamma active lurks a lot. I think there was only a couple games with him where he truly stayed on the ball.

Gamma hasn't really done anything that looks like reaching for town credit, or trying to appear to be putting more work in then he is. Maybe the closest are the few times he stood up for my entrance in the game, and I think he would have done that as either alignment.

I also don't think that Gamma is this casual as scum. He doesn't seem at all concerned with the noose.

There's is the possibility I'm wrong. I can't claim to be great at meta reading Gamma.

What are your thoughts on Gamma currently Accountant?

[Grendel]

Who is masian

Masian is a legendary poster on this site. It was once said that she once caught the entire scum team on page 1. She has never not been protected at night and when she replaces into games, it's standard operating procedure for the scum to just claim and let themselves get lynched to save everyone time. She quit mafia after the FBI offered her a lucrative contract to put her skills to work sniffing out Russian spies.

You forgot to mention the part where Masian worked as a human lie detector!

[Grendel]

Spoiler:

I think most of last night's discussion is hard to parse. A problem with theory discussion (not that I've never been guilty of doing it) is that people will generally be honest about their theory thoughts and even if you disagree, your feelings about RQS are probably not scum or town indicative.

As I said above though, CCC is pretty obviously town. Think Cheetory and DRK have done a good job of trying to move forward, slight townreads there.

Everyone else somewhere in the middle.

Leaning Scum:

MCM is obnoxious and going to be really hard to read, OMGUS voted grendel, we could do worse.

I agree accountant's VI post is more "gotcha" than real but it did ping me, I'm not forgetting about it.
Raya was a little on the defensive side, would like her to come back and catch up.

The more I reread MCM's stuff the less I like it. I don't believe that he believes that rqs is actually a scumtell.

Vote MCM

idk, when I read this it looks like Back Hand taking advantage of Mutton's speech gimmick.

"Player x is mildly annoying, and there are ppl voting him. Sounds like a safe place to start."

VOTE: BackHand

I don't really want to put up with a contrivance the whole game, and I'll admit that's probably coloring my views, but if you look past that to the content, you get:

An OMGUS vote, poorly explained
An OMGUS vote, not at all explained

I'm baffled as to why anyone would townread the slot.

I agree to the extent that Mutton's actions don't merit a town read. However, I think there are limits to what he can achieve with the self inflicted post restriction, and that he will easily be snubbed out later if he is mafia.

However I currently feel that lynching lambchop would be about as good as a rando lynch. A majorty of the scum reads around him seem to do with his posting gimmick and him being scummy for that vs reasons I think are creditable?
----

His vote on me was dumb, but emotionally fueled frpov. I don't mind sharing a wagon with him if he is on you, reasons or no. OMGUS isn't a good tell for gauging scum btw.

Most of what you said has looked more like agenda pushing then developing and processing reads.

[Grendel]

@All

1. What is your preferred alignment?
2. On a scale of one to ten how collaborative a player are you and why?
3. How important is it to take other players personalities into account when forming reads on them?
4. What player do you have the most experience with on this roster?
5. What are you feeling as you enter this mini's D1?

scum
5
100%
gamma, i guess

nothing

I'm not going to answer Grendel's questions and it would be best if no one else did either

there is nothing wrong with answering them, they at least start conversation

Hiraki, u didn't roll scum did you?

This hits one of my RQS tells...

[Grendel]

I don't know why you are reading so heavily into me, like you want to paint me as mafia. Getting scummy vibes from you.

@all: plz post your opinions on this post and this phrase in general within the next 24 hours before i use my ability 'nothin personnel' to kill you, ty

I think he probably comes from a site where D1's are less aggressive.

My posting in my first game here probably read all weird and awquard like that too.

and what if i did

you gonna fight me

I'm a pacifist.

No, I'm probably not going to let it have a big influence on my reads b/c I don't think anybody would take a push fueled my a personal tell on something as abstract as RQS seriously. Unless I explained it, which would ruin the effectiveness of it.

[Grendel]

Pow pow.

*Wilhelm Scream*

----

See you guys tomorrow.

Grendel you're gonna have to share those tells with me someday

I <3 u, but not that much

[Grendel]

Spoiler:

So... when you were Mafia, you were

sacred

of using RQS around certain players...???

Scared

makes sense in that sentence - if you had reason to be concerned that using RQS in front of those players would lead to you being outed as scum. But I don't know how to even parse the word 'sacred' in that sentence structure. Could you perhaps elaborate on your meaning?

<snip>

RC, and Frogger had fresh town meta of me playing a game where I didn't RQS, or open with anything notable really. Thought I should keep that in line and not introduce something unexpected

The "???" was in reference to Accountant here.

More importantly, I was scared of using RQS around players like RC, Frogger, and JayReed.

???

What did you need this info for?

Frankly, putting 'sacred' (meaning 'holy') into your sentence made absolutely no sense at all. Putting 'scared' (meaning 'worried' or 'concerned') made a whole lot of sense. So I couldn't figure out why you said that the word should have been 'sacred' (meaning 'holy') and not 'scared' (meaning 'concerned').

The word you originally had made sense, and after this post I am even more certain that you had the correct spelling to begin with. The word you said it

should

have been

didn't

make sense (and still doesn't).

At this point, I'm inclined to think that you meant 'scared' (meaning 'concerned') the whole time and simply got a bit muddled when you tried to correct it.

Right now my reads are:

Cheetory6, Gamma Emerald, notsure, Accountant,

MuttonChopMagic, Not_Mafia, Hiraki, CCC, Klick, DeathRowKitty,

Backhand, NotTheRealPaul,

My scum reads aren't especially strong, but I am p confidant in all my town reads.

The newly subbed in players are the dead null on the list of course.

Hmmmmm. You're not the first to feel a lack of confidence in Backhand.

My current reads:

Towniest of the Town:
CCC

Slightly Townish:
Backhand, Cheetory

Mostly Neutral:
Accountant, Gamma, Grendel, Notsure, Raya36

Neutral but annoying:
MuttonChopMagic

Slightly scummy:
DeathRowKitty, Klick, NotTheRealPaul

The only one of these reads that's really got any strength at all is my own read, and that's only because I've seen my own role PM. But that's more or less my thinking so far.

I think I'm happy leaving my vote where it is for the moment.

What backhand doing way up there?

It's a weak read. General impression. He seems to be asking questions, trying to understand other people's motivations. He just... feels genuine, I guess.

Like I said, it's a weak read. He's looking just a slight bit better than neutral.

I spoilered the part where I messed up my spelling lol. I did mean scared as in frightened.

I appreciate the fact that you are extending some actual early game reads since your tenacity is to keep everybody null.

That said- I do think you are wrong on backhand.

I know what you are saying here but I'm inclined to believe that you are town reading Back b/c he voiced belief in your claim. Which could mean you are town, as I would probably avoid weighing in if a scum buddy started faking town tells. Backhand probably jumped on the moment to start forming some early reads without having to put extra effort to "find" them. That makes more sense then a S/S interaction.

[Grendel]

Don't hold your breath

So you're content to be a burden to town?

[Grendel]

Did not like Accountant's calling out of VIs--those first few pages weren't that bad, and it seems like a way to set up discrediting people's opinions later.

If that was what I wanted to do it sure seems dumb that I'd also engage with them and try to understand their reads and thought process

And those few pages were bad, don't lie to yourself

PEdit: idk what to make of it

Not necessarily--you could be pretending to engage only to dismiss them later, especially if ScumAccountant didn't like where they were headed. But this is a molehill, not a mountain.

What about this is liking Accountant's response to you Backhand?

Am I missing something?

[Grendel]

Mostly caught up, stopping to eat before making posts.

[Grendel]

@Grendel - is Post 184 the only basis for the SR on Backhand?

No, I also disliked his vote selections.

Mutton is probtown. Not Mafia has been fundamentally useless this game, but voting him is a place holder vote. Its low info, and mostly safe. His reasoning for voting both feels shallow as well.

More recently

How is it a townslip?

This game explicitly does not have daytalk.

Ah, shit. I misread, mafia did have daytalk for 48 hours. So, take that one back.

Backhand attempting to town slip looks really contrived.

thought about it. not sure slot is close to lock town now I think
that's a gross replace, yes, but scum doing that there would be 1000 times more stink

1000 times more stink. . . is more likely? Less likely?

I thought this was a particularly loaded post for somebody who more recently stressed that he was not scum reading unsure.

[Grendel]

@Hiraki

btw what is with the stylistic changing in you posting style? Your wording feels much looser and off the cuff then that other game we played together, and that one game I spectated.

[Grendel]

Town
notsure
CCC
Cheetory6
Accountant
Backhand
DeathRowKitty
Grendel (null)
Hiraki (null)
Not_Mafia (null)
MuttonChopMagic
VOTE: NotTheRealPaul (top scumread)

Why are you town reading backhand, and DRK?

Where is klick?

[Grendel]

Well thats another person who reads my tone as off. Like I really dont get it. My tone seems to be universally scummy despite me not freakin being scum. Like is there something I do to fix this or do I say fuck it and let town waste time based on a shitty gut and inability to read tone?

Asking as a newbie to you experienced people.

I think that many of your posts read as incredibly insecure, and in some cases insincere.

This indicates you aren't paying attention to things. It's a proven fact that scum don't have to read the Game as closely as they know everyone's alignment.

whoever told you this was wrong and bad at the game

explain?

Like I guess what GE said only applies to bad scum as good scum would pay attention to the game more knowing who theh can easily push.

So like I get it if he thinks Im newbscum who skimmed, and it would make sense as Ive never played scum before and this isnt my normal tone. Note: This isnt a scumslim Im just saying I can see how it makes sense from GE's POV.

Posts like this where you felt the need to say you were explicitly not scumslipping. It makes you seem overtly concerned about appearances vs finding mafia.

so to be clear
you have a good reason to vote yourself my dear?

yup obviously I voted myself because I know Im scum and I want towncred since I led the wagon on myself.

So when I flip scum, then obviously im like conftown because I led the wagon so then I dont need to worry about being mislynched

/sarcasm

UNVOTE:

now town cant get distracted over something irrelevant (IMO) and we can have real discussion

Or is this somehow useful to town? Please explain why because I am newb.

And posts like this that felt like a forced snarky reaction to play off pressure.

I also think that your reluctance to vote your reads, (however small they are), is going to impede your creditability in this community where many players vote fluidly. Players see you not voting and think that your inability to exercise what essentially is your power over mafia as nervous scum afraid of backlash.

[Grendel]

I think that Not Paul is no longer a lynch option I want on the table today.

I have a precedence for accidently nailing town prs as scum on this site.

Gamma can vouch for this lol

[Grendel]

DRK I feel their pushes are genuine but I don't really regard that as grounds for a hard townread. I've made pushes on things I legitimately believed were scummy as scum before.

This isn't something I can argue b/c its too personal, and vague.

I never really got a vide for DRK, and atm I'm wondering if she is scum.

[Grendel]

No? You didn't nail me that game

No, I'm saying that as town I gravity towards scum reading players that turn out to be power roles.

I don't have that luck as scum. (P sure that's the thing your thinking of)

[Grendel]

Ugh, I'm pretty cool lynching RQS guy.

Reading.

(you're still bitter about last time?)

[Grendel]

I am invoking my platinum mafiascum membership credibility license to declare that Nero is town.
Sorry to the scum who this inconveniences.
<3

Are you 100% confidant?

I heard that Nero has good reads, it'd be cool to see town!Nero in action.

That was 1838 right?

yep

[Grendel]

Its still good reinforcement for my reads!

It'd be amazing to eliminate all the scum through PoE b/c everybody was just too town to handle!

[Grendel]

Hey guys, I'm distracted by other things right now. I'll be back tomorrow (Saturday).

[Grendel]

We need to start consolidating these wagons.

[Grendel]

These are the reads that I went away with the other day:

Cheetory6, Gamma Emerald,

Slingshot, nero, MuttonChopMagic, NotTheRealPaul,

CCC, DeathRowKitty, ///// Not_Mafia, Penguin Power,

Hiraki, Backhand,

I want to lynch Backhand, but will consider compromising on {Not_Mafia, Penguin power, Hiraki}

[Grendel]

*@Gamma*

Who of the four people in my lynch pool would you be interested in lynching?

[Grendel]

*@Gamma*

Who of the four people in my lynch pool would you be interested in lynching?

Without looking them over I'd say Hiraki and Backhand are all right
I feel NM as mafia tries to do stuff but at the bare minimum

I'm actually not really feeling one way or another on not mafia's alignment. I don't want a trolly player with no investment with the game representing me in lylo.

Simple as that.

nothing happened but if you want me to comment on nothingness

2) Grendel has me low on his reads-list because I pinged an RQS scumtell which are clearly never wrong, as Grendel put it

Interesting that this is the point you pick at. I would have thought you'd have something to say about my including null player in my lynch pool.

I remember you chewing me out for voting a tertiary scum read over a primary one in chosen mafia. Your thought process is not town Hiraki.

[Grendel]

Idk.
Backhand's ISO didn't scream scummy to me. There was a wagon there but nobody's pushing anything that's screamed convincing to me.
Gamma is pretty up in the air.
His ISO is pretty empty of content which is concerning.
N_M is because nobody is biting on PP even though he's a scumbutt and we need a wagon and he's an easy wagon and he's not being town. What more can you ask for 3 days to d1 deadline.

I don't recall Back hand ever getting more then a few votes at any given time. There is has been little traction there.

What about my case did you dislike?

[Grendel]

Idk.
Backhand's ISO didn't scream scummy to me. There was a wagon there but nobody's pushing anything that's screamed convincing to me.
Gamma is pretty up in the air.
His ISO is pretty empty of content which is concerning.
N_M is because nobody is biting on PP even though he's a scumbutt and we need a wagon and he's an easy wagon and he's not being town. What more can you ask for 3 days to d1 deadline.

Three days is a long time.

We want a _good wagon_. Not some rushed decision made an hour before deadline.

[Grendel]

Actually, I thought I said more about backhand then I did.

hum.

And I'm actually supposed to get up rly early tomorrow...

I'll see what I can get done in the next half hour.

[Grendel]

PenguinPower replaces Klick.
SlingshotWaffles replaces notsure.
Nero Cain replaces Accountant.

...well. That's going to change this game quite a bit.

Oh really?

Why?

Three out of thirteen players were replaced all at once. Wouldn't that make a bit of a difference?

Welcome, by the way! If you have some tentative reads ready, I think we'd all probably like to see them.

SR for Paul and Backhand.
Lean on you.
TR for Gamma and Hiraki.
Lean on Nero.

What ever happened to your Backhand scum read?

[Grendel]

Vote Count 1.12

Not_Mafia (6): Not_Mafia, Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (2): CCC, MuttonChopMagic
Backhand (1): Grendel
CCC (1): Hiraki
Cheetory6 (1): SlingshotWaffles

Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, Nero Cain


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

Not_Mafia has been prodded.

I don't think I've ever seen a legit policy lynch happen before. This probably means NM is town sadly.

I want to lynch BackHand/Hiraki but I've done a suck job articulating my suspicions there, and I don't think I have the time to really get a rally going.

Is there any interest in Penguin?

[Grendel]

The more I read the more I think Cheet is scum

Do you have thoughts on other players on the roster?

Can you list out the parts that points to Cheet!scum?

Is there any interest in Penguin?

there is actually alot of interest in PP rn.

What do you think of notsure/sling?

I thought they were town last I checked.

Notsure's abrasive combativeness looked like newbie town, and I thought at one point that he was displaying real thought behind his reads. Even if his actions, and reads were misguided from my pov.

I think that Sling would also be a fairly ballzy scum player to challenge Cheetory when Cheet is largely town read.

At least that what I got on the slot from grazing yesterday.

[Grendel]

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Grendel]

paul is cringe but town.

Agreed

notsure pings me with 77 Looks like white knighting of Grendal. And 80 is just weird. 84 seems like a fence sit.

77 is a kinda a thing. It didn't register as wking at the time, but I guess I could see it in retrospect. I actually think the way Hiraki handled my entrance was way worse tho.

Why is 80 weird, and why in this context do you find it scummy?

I hated 84, but thought it could come from newb town justifying a vote to themselves.

[Grendel]

People need to learn not to join more games than they can handle. It's a burden to players and mods. Just saying.

Seconded

It rly pisses me off that players replace out whilly nilly here.

Its a huge deservice to the mod and the rest of the roster, and generally makes the game harder for me to read.

[Grendel]

Not interested in Gamma/Kraska.

I can vote NM if I have to, but its not my preferred lynch.

I want better options. -.-

[Grendel]

CCC gets run into the ground every D1 that he is town. The only exception I recall off hand is the only other game I played with him where I helped divert the pressure off him.

He has played a more null game, but I'm thinking that this wagon is not my pick.

I'll review the thread to be sure.

[Grendel]

It has more to with me feeling bad for people that are constantly lynched early because their playsytle isn't "palatable" to site meta. Like I'm not checked the logic of this speed wagon yet but odds are that CCC is getting lynched for null reasons. >.>

I don't think I said anything about you/NM getting lynched early. I know very little about both of you.

[Grendel]

Not this early no. The majority of his reads remain null throughout D1.

Pre-edit

VOTE: Backhand

[Grendel]

Grendel switching from pp, who noone seems to townread, to backhand who definitely won't get lynched today doesn't make sense. Grendel can actually campaign for a pp lynch if he tries but he chooses to park a vote somewhere irrelevant instead

Eveybody says people Penguin is viable, yet I've have seen no debates, and no interest after I voted.

If you are expecting me to agro push to lynch for Pengiun then you have higher expections for my ability to rally a lynch then I do.

[Grendel]

The majority of his reads remain null throughout D1.

Does him saying with like.. a really high level of confidence that N_M is a policy lynch that scum is pushing not give you bad feels here?

I'll look at CCC when I come back after lunch.

Was he on the NM wagon when he said that?

[Grendel]

@Mod

I'm going to be V/LA 16th to the 19th of June.

[Grendel]

Is the whole case on him meta?

I don't see anybody breaking down his posts explaining why there scummy.

I thought his predesser was really townie looking.

[Grendel]

hey guys
do u see whats wrong with this ?

I want to lynch Backhand, but will consider compromising on {Not_Mafia, Penguin power, Hiraki}

When I say that I'm willing to compromise on a player doesn't mean that I'd want to do it.

When an actual wagon happened on NM I chickened because seeing an actual policy lynch made me paranoid that NM is town vs the don't know and care feeling I had earlier.

[Grendel]

Eh.
VOTE: CCC
I really don't like this post:

My thoughts on the current top wagons:

Not_Mafia is a policy lynch. He's been pretty near silent. Then he put on two votes, claimed a gut scumread on Cheet and gave no explanation of the Gamma vote, and said Nero was town. That's a pretty pathetically minimal contribution to the state of the game, especially since having caught up, I suspect that the reason behind the Gamma vote was self-preservation (which is NAI because all roles benefit from self-preservation).

Gamma actually looks like scum for a variety of reasons, which I have gone over before.

So, I suspect that Not_Mafia is scum's mislynch for today. It's an easy wagon to push, since it's a policy lynch for a genuinely super-quiet player. It's also a wagon that does not reflect badly on scum-on-the-wagon if the slot flips Town. Therefore, I think that the only reason Not_Mafia's wagon has progressed so far, is that there is scum on it; if Not_Mafia is lynched today and flips Town, then I would recommend taking a very close look at everyone on that wagon tomorrow.

Currently, my vote is staying on Gamma/kraska77.

There's a lot that feels off with this post.
*Especially the "tomorrow I will pick at the wagon". Seems a lot more like setup for tomorrow than a genuine interest in parsing the wagon itself, especially since there's nothing specific being unpacked here.*
Also don't like the declaration of N_M being a policy lynch. The confidence there feels a little like it's coming from a place of too much information.

Because I'm Town?

I don't know how Cheetory's recognising that, mind you.

Also don't really like this post!
I'm kind of sucking at putting my feelings to thoughts tonight, but this is probably the only thing I feel anything for right now. If I have energy tomorrow I'll put more effort into sorting this if it doesn't just become a wagon.

The bolded portion is 100% how CCC thinks all the time. "Spare the unconfirmed and talk of the future where things are confirmed"

I think sounding "confidant" of a mislynch while not reading the players on a wagon, or breaking the wagon up, is an underlying commentary that CCC isn't that confidant at all. I don't disagree with your intal impression... normally that's a good point. However in this instance I think this isn't a correct.

I don't get the issue with the second post.

[Grendel]

Eh.
VOTE: CCC
I really don't like this post:

My thoughts on the current top wagons:

Not_Mafia is a policy lynch. He's been pretty near silent. Then he put on two votes, claimed a gut scumread on Cheet and gave no explanation of the Gamma vote, and said Nero was town. That's a pretty pathetically minimal contribution to the state of the game, especially since having caught up, I suspect that the reason behind the Gamma vote was self-preservation (which is NAI because all roles benefit from self-preservation).

Gamma actually looks like scum for a variety of reasons, which I have gone over before.

So, I suspect that Not_Mafia is scum's mislynch for today. It's an easy wagon to push, since it's a policy lynch for a genuinely super-quiet player. It's also a wagon that does not reflect badly on scum-on-the-wagon if the slot flips Town. Therefore, I think that the only reason Not_Mafia's wagon has progressed so far, is that there is scum on it; if Not_Mafia is lynched today and flips Town, then I would recommend taking a very close look at everyone on that wagon tomorrow.

Currently, my vote is staying on Gamma/kraska77.

There's a lot that feels off with this post.
*

Especially the "tomorrow I will pick at the wagon". Seems a lot more like setup for tomorrow than a genuine interest in parsing the wagon itself, especially since there's nothing specific being unpacked here.

*
Also don't like the declaration of N_M being a policy lynch. The confidence there feels a little like it's coming from a place of too much information.

Because I'm Town?

I don't know how Cheetory's recognising that, mind you.

Also don't really like this post!
I'm kind of sucking at putting my feelings to thoughts tonight, but this is probably the only thing I feel anything for right now. If I have energy tomorrow I'll put more effort into sorting this if it doesn't just become a wagon.

The bolded portion is 100% how CCC thinks all the time. "Spare the unconfirmed and talk of the future where things are confirmed"

I think sounding "confidant" of a mislynch while not reading the players on a wagon, or breaking the wagon up, is an underlying commentary that CCC isn't that confidant at all. I don't disagree with your intal impression... normally that's a good point. However in this instance I think this isn't a correct.

I don't get the issue with the second post.

Forgot bb code doesn't work here

[Grendel]

I'm gonna get caught up later tonight.

Weekend was so busy it bleeded into my weekdays

[Grendel]

After I got cuauath up I noticed that Nero did get around to responding to me. Well kinda.

notsure pings me with 77 Looks like white knighting of Grendal. And 80 is just weird. 84 seems like a fence sit.

this is still a thing though.

80 is weird 'cause 80 is weird (I think Grendal was asking about that) Like idk...as scum you need to give yourself the flexibility to vote and by not giving a read on a slot you give yourself that flexibility. I mean, in hindsight you could argue that he was scumreading DRK (or scum that knows DRK is town) but if he was just town that was legit scumreading DRK why would he NOT give a scum read just to vote her a few posts later. It's odd. Inb4 "he's a VI!".

Lamp shading an answer makes it no less valid. Calling a player scum with offsite exeriance (or in some cases no experience) out for not voting is bad. Many other sites don't throw votes around like scumers do. To an outsider it would feel unnatural to approach the early game like that.

I mean mutton was town reading this slot for 517 and eh....like if I tilt my head just the right way I could see it. It feels kinda null though. I think scum wouldn't want to be in a "toxic" game either.

not a big fan of Slings like first 4 post being promises to catchup.

Depends on the player. Depends on the player. 2x

I'm still not a fan of 642. Like why would he feel the need to call notsure an idiot?

ITs inline with the brash attitude he has been displaying this game in general?

He legitimately disliked the way his slot approached the game?

[Grendel]

Not too long ago, well maybe about a year ago. Pisskop was getting heavily scum read and

TACTICALLY

replaced out [as scum]. So I would not be surprised if he'd do the same in an attempt to maybe not get deadline lynched, idk. Cheet is also saying this is his scum meta sooooo...

vote:Gamma

I have all night phase to ponder if you are his buddy or not but scums is scum.

This post is really bad actually. huh

I'm assuming that I've played with Cheet before, I just don't remember anything about him. lol I'll dive some of his games but I am already lightly town reading him based on his early lulz self-vote. Yes, scum have done the whole "I'm scum"/self vote type gambits but I think they mostly come from derp town that thinks it's going to trick scum.

RE: RQS

I don't think I've ever

seen

scum do RQS that's not to say that Grendal can't be scum 'cause that's an appeal to majority argument and those are kinda wank. I immediately dislike PP here for finding RQS AI when it's not.

First point is really arbitrary. Second point is bad too, perhaps worse.

paul is cringe but town.

Agreed

notsure pings me with 77 Looks like white knighting of Grendal. And 80 is just weird. 84 seems like a fence sit.

77 is a kinda a thing. It didn't register as wking at the time, but I guess I could see it in retrospect. I actually think the way Hiraki handled my entrance was way worse tho.

Why is 80 weird, and why in this context do you find it scummy?

I hated 84, but thought it could come from newb town justifying a vote to themselves.

Also noticed that the time I reached out to interact with nero his response were p under whelming, and he made no attempt to engage me further. Which is weird if he was town reading me like he says he was.

I went back looking for reasons I town read Nero, and I didn't find much. Only a lot of under developed interactions, and -meh- posts.

I guess I was too positive that his predecessor was town, and took for granted that the content he was making wasn't nesserly pro-town beyond the surface. And there are outright bad posts I missed completely.

[Grendel]

I'll look at sling now.

Odds are I'll still think he is town tho

[Grendel]

Isn't Nero supposed to be a collaborative player?

I might also be ticked b/c as town I've accidentally interacted with scum in a way that look S/S often on this site. Knowing this makes me feel like a low tier player. Its also always has been town reads that I forcefully convinced myself were town (disregarding my gut), or b/c I took somwbody else's word over my own.

I'll see if I feel that same way tomarrow

I'm okay with DRK as a lynch.

[Grendel]

Still think sling is town.

I should look at more players, but having to reevaluate town reads is not much fun.

[Grendel]

oh, I thought somebody said Nero was elsewhere

I feel super out of it.

Struggling to decide if I want to keep updating my reads, or if I should call it a night

Preedit- top was at Cheetory

I'm here, I'm real, and I'm spectacular

beetlejuice?

[Grendel]

NTRP is likely Town, for the reasons I outlined previously - he seems the best candidate for Doctoral protection, and we had no night kill. I know I'm Town.

That leaves eight people who might be Mafia: Not_Mafia, DeathRowKitty, Cheetory6, Hiraki, Grendel, SlingshotWaffles, Backhand, and Nero Cain.

My thoughts on these follow:

Not_Mafia is still mostly silent, and deliberately hard to read. Null.
DeathRowKitty hasn't said anything useful today. Near-Null.
Cheetory tripped over kraska's post about MCM in a way that looks very much like innocent Townie behaviour, and revealed info that would appear (in the short term) good for Town. Leaning Townish.
Hiraki is trying to figure out the Nero Cain scumreads. Or pretending to. Null so far.
Grendel has yet to turn up today. Near-Null.
SlingshotWaffles - ohhhhh dear. SlingshotWaffles appears to be making deliberate effort to fish for the identities of PRs. Looks scummy.
Backhand - Seems to be making a genuine effort to figure out what's going on. Feels Towny, but that's only a feel - there's not much backing it.
Nero Cain - I would normally have said near-null, but now that I'm reading Kraska as strongly Town, I have to give a lot more weight to her Nero read. (And, moreover, looking over his ISO, kraska is

right

- Nero has been pretty vague and uncertain. Not quite sure that's necessarily scumsign, but kraska seems sure and if she's Town, then, well...) - Scumlean

So, right now, if I had to pick a scumteam, it would be SlingshotWaffles, Nero Cain, and one of my Nulls or Near-Nulls (Grendel, Hikari, DRK, or Not_Mafia)

VOTE: SlingshotWaffles

Do you think that NeroxSling makes much sense tho?

Nero was on Sling a lot yesterday.

Can we talk about your consistant backhand read sometime? I didn't do enough yesterday to pull attention to him aside from complain about how nobody was paying him any attention lol

[Grendel]

*@Cheetory*

What are you thoughts on Hikari's actual alignment?

[Grendel]

tbh I'm having trouble forming reads this game because I've gotten into a bad habit of accidentally scumreading most power roles as town but I think I understand how it happens and I'm being overly careful to not let myself fall into that this game and it's making me weird and cagey because avoiding it requires me to be more careful and I haven't really felt able to do so since I fell behind once in this game and that's been locking me into only being able to talk about the subset of players I feel like I've put enough effort into separating properly in that way

and now i'm just playing like shit in a different way than usual so that's useful

That souns like the opposite of my problem, where I scum read town power forcing them to cliam.

If you weren't being careful where would you reads be?

[Grendel]

NotTheRealPaul- prob Town

So then....why are you voting him...........?

Because he's not claiming.

If you think he is town then give him space to wifom scum.

Pressuring a pr to out themselves prematurely is not good play.

Vote a scum read instead.

[Grendel]

@Mutton

Are you really a transcend alt?

[Grendel]

why would i answer that question

froggy
hey froggy
froggy mckittens hey
who would you be scumreading if you were probably accidentally scumreading power roles? just curious wink wink

Thanks for twisting my attempt to get you into the game into something that sounds much more displeasing.

What are the reads you are currently confidant in then?

[Grendel]

@Mutton

Are you really a transcend alt?

The only reason I'm asking was that I thought your early game was really mean spirited. Since, perhaps presumptuously, I assumed transcend and I were on good terms... idk I thought it was out of his/your character. :/

If I tired to justly my Sling read would you listen?

I was goin to focus on my null-scum reads today, but Sling seems to be getting a lot of attention, and I think he isn't developed enough as a player to stop himself from acting like lynch bait.

[Grendel]

Yeah, I didn't think are transcend, but Kraska mentioned you are so I wanted to know for sure.

[Grendel]

CCC is probably bitter because I _have_ been pretty inactive this game.

I mentioned from the outset that I was engaged in multiple offsite games, and my limit is usually two. This was before I signed up to play with him in this game.

VOTE: DeathRowKitty

[Grendel]

tbh I'm having trouble forming reads this game because I've gotten into a bad habit of accidentally scumreading most power roles as town but I think I understand how it happens and I'm being overly careful to not let myself fall into that this game and it's making me weird and cagey because avoiding it requires me to be more careful and I haven't really felt able to do so since I fell behind once in this game and that's been locking me into only being able to talk about the subset of players I feel like I've put enough effort into separating properly in that way

and now i'm just playing like shit in a different way than usual so that's useful

That souns like the opposite of my problem, where I scum read town power forcing them to cliam.

If you weren't being careful where would you reads be?

I'm with DRK on this. This is just terrible. Blatant rolefishing.

And how long have you been in a relationship with DRK btw?

[Grendel]

Pardon me while I go back to not giving a shit about this game.
Good luck with your pet Slingshot wagon.

Is there anything I can do to get you reinvested in the game?

Perhaps we could help each other, as I've not felt very motivated myself.

[Grendel]

My mom has been using this computer to job search so I haven't had a chance to get on it much lately.

I think I'll be here later tonight tho

[Grendel]

I didn't take it that way, CCC. I think grendel was just trying to get DRK to contribute more, which is something that we need. Like you have to believe that grendel believes that DRK actually has some magic ability to detect town power roles to really scumread over that.

Magic power? No. But Grendel finding out where DRK thinks the power roles are might help Grendel to pinpoint them with greater accuracy.

I'm aware that Grendel's statement can be taken in multiple ways. I'm... not at all sure which of those ways is correct.

CCC is probably bitter because I _have_ been pretty inactive this game.

If I was voting on inactivity bitterness, I'd be voting for Not_Mafia before you.

I'm with DRK on this. This is just terrible. Blatant rolefishing.

And how long have you been in a relationship with DRK btw?

Not "in a relationship" with. "In agreement" with.

So you aren't sure which meaning it is, while you simultaneously agree with DRK that I'm role fishing?

In truth it was a rushed post I made when I saw DRK was on, and I wanted to interact with her so I could start my sorting process. I won't deny that I framed it up poorly. I aligned my thoughts in a dirction that was better in my next post.

I thought how DRK jumped down my throat was pretty bad when I was a town read of hers for the whole game afaik

[Grendel]

@Sling

Can you slow down to ensure your future posts contain more content?

You don't have to respond with a quip to every post addressing you. All that you are doing currently is bogging the game state down. I know you don't _want_ to be like this right? You want to be helpful right?

What are your thoughts on DRK?

[Grendel]

Never fear, Vedith is here!

UNVOTE: All

Games night tonight - I'll do shit tomorrow.

Hi Vedith!

You probably don't remember me, but I remember subbing into your slot for a game. And I think we were in another game together at one point too.

[Grendel]

1) Because I think you are town, and I don't want you to get lynched for your combative defensiveness.

2) Maybe if I take to time to work with you then your overall play will benefit. (prob not, I'm not a great player)

3) I'm somewhat reliant on having town reads to have a rapport with when I'm too busy to dedicate lots of time to a game.

[Grendel]

Sure, I'm looking right at her too.

Trouble is that she seems super chill, and is prob hard to spot as scum.

[Grendel]

The first... 15 pages feel like an entirely different game then the one I'm in now.

Most of the roster are subs now.

Death Row isn't as bad as I thought. I'm not thrilled with another player only town reading for rqs. At least it seemed her whole preliminary read on me was based off the fact I used RQS as an opener. I thought that her original posts were lecture-ry, especially her interactions with notsure. Her post at 107, where she original talks about Mutton's op looks bad to me.

She also never got back to what she thought was weird about my Gamma defense. If she thought my defesnse was crap I'd think she call me out in a more direct manner. Could be because I was generally town read at that point. I didn't really care for how she handled Mutton, and Gamma in general.

I guess I wasn't the super strong town read for her that I thought I was. Also don't feel like I found enough there to merit a strong scum read.

---

I aslo took some time to look at CCC and uh CCC actually looks kinda bad in retrospect. It seemed like he spent a lot more time honing in an trivial things then I remebered. That one long exchange about how I misspelled "scared", and Lecturing Mutton about rhyming structures... idk why but it feels not very focused for someone as analytically inclined as CCC.

[Grendel]

@Cheetory

I know that lecturing is consider a town/scum tell among more experienced players on this site,

Do you know if DRK falls under one or the other?

[Grendel]

I'm with DRK on this. This is just terrible. Blatant rolefishing.

And how long have you been in a relationship with DRK btw?

Not "in a relationship" with. "In agreement" with.

I was actually wanting to know what your current read on her was. Like do you think she is town?

I might of missed it since I didn't scour your D2 posts.

[Grendel]

*@All*

I'm going to _find_ more time to contribute to this game later.

I would love love love if we could cut down on the snarky potshots for a while. It would really help me get me invested in this game.

Thank you!

[Grendel]

Hi Giga!

Who'd you replace?

---

I should have some time to look into this game tomorrow.

Pre-edit:

That's good to hear Sling

[Grendel]

grendel can you tell me why you're not voting nero

I've been mentally waffling on him since D2 started lol

Disappointed that you subbed into DRK's slot. She/you looking scum via PoE.

Haha, I guess it'll be easier to know for sure since you are always ontop content wise.

Pre-edit
Well most the time you are

[Grendel]

I'm gonna confess things I was doing/going to do

*@All*

I'm going to _find_ more time to contribute to this game later.

I would love love love if we could cut down on the snarky potshots for a while. It would really help me get me invested in this game.

Thank you!

My original plan following the above post was to come in today (Monday) and start OB!towning the game into Oblivion.

In past games where I was in busy irl situations I usually had developed a strong rapport with one or more of my town reads. This game most of my town reads today and yesterday have been not very collaborative with me. Ex: Cheeorty doesn’t care, Mutton has a speech impediment, Sling is abrasive, Kaseka has been scum reading me, Not Puel is never around. I wasn’t able to motivate myself without support of “x” player(s) So I never got a good footing in this game.

I gernally prescribe to an idea that there are different positions that town needs at different times, and when those positions go unfilled that game state suffers. When motivated my game revolves around filling the holes in town’s communication. So today I was hoping to simultaneously be towns heart and leader. I guess I’m too late and therefore neither.

I am my strongest when I feel like I’m the player that is putting forth the most effort to slove the game meanwhile bieng underestimated before doing so. Perhaps I counted on it happening this game- when I found the time to do it- and didn’t consider the likihood that somebody way more caplable of an archetypical leadership role would come in before I had the chance to prove myself.

I had started setting some strategic thought down on a word doc Friday night to form a sort of plan. If I couldn’t get on the same page with anybody, then I figured that I’d have to force myself to get it together once I had a solid few hours to sit down and read the game. So starting today I was going to attempt to play OB!town supper hard, and get all my town reads into a town bloc. I even drafted out a series of things I wanted to go through, just to make sure I kept all my thoughts together!

[Grendel]

I copy pasted the notes I was talking about below

Spoiler:

Lynch pool prop:

"Okay guys with less then a week left this day we need to start consolidating wagons. To do this I propose an exercise:
I’ll suggest three lynches, the player below me suggests their three preferred lynches. This goes through out the whole roster. In the end the three players that are mentioned most consistently are the ones (the only ones) that are on the table to be lynched today.
I recognize that this probably would have been better D1, but with the slow state of the game, and the lack of cohesion of the players in it I think we should employ this now.
Here are mine (Nero, Backhand, DRK)"

Postivety and good questions is prob what I need to do at this point.
---
Foucus on Cheetory because he is strong experienced player, and probably easyier to commune woth then Mutton/Kaska/Sling/NoPaul.
"@cheetory
I know that you aren’t feeling very involved atm but I really need your insight on this game. I’m in an award position where I’m confidant all my town reads are town, but I don’t know where scum is hiding in all my nullish/scumish reads. If there is a team in (DRK, CCC, Hirika, Backhand, Nero) who do you think it is?
Hopully I’ll get to follow up on his DRK read. "
---
Not sure what to do with Kaska. Gamma would have been easyier to work with. I think that Kaska is gonna scum read me regardless what I do. I guess the best thing I can do is gets as much Not!Grendel content from her as I can before she dies. Hopefully she lurk for a little whilie longer so I can start sorting myself out.
---
Sling is a trying player. But we are town reading eachother. I’ll try to keep him from getting policy lynched. What would be great is if I could get him really focusing on interacting with just me. I think the main issue is that he is throwing snark in everybodies face. Frusterating when the reason I town read somebody is the same reason that ppl wanna lynch him.
"@sling
Something something Death Cat, something something thanks Sling. I would also like to know what you think about Nero/BackHand upon iso!"
---
Not sure what I can do with Mutton, I think he is town reading me pretty hard. But I don’t think he would want to go one-on-one with me beyond having me vote with him or vice versa.
---
"@Hiraki
I think that I might be pushing the scum tell thing too hard yesterday. I just feel in general that you’ve been kinnda off your town game. I get that you’re fixated that Nero meta lynch is bad, but I’d apperiate a defense for why you think he is town/ a bad lynch aside from that.
I’m not sure I’m sold on CCC, but I do think that his recent fixations haven’t been great along with scum reading me for even worse reasons. Can you quote any case stuff you had against him for my conveince?
I feel like of my current scum spects you are probably the one I’m Wroung on."
---
I don’t really know anything about Pual, or what kind of stimulas would draw him out. Its annoying when prob town lurks out a game.

I wonder if I hard ate at any of the town reads that neglect to answer my questions it’d make me more town looking ingerneral. I think it just makes me look really town like from scum pov. Which wouldn’t be bad b/c getting night killed would mean that I wouldn’t have to keep playing leader. It also gets anybody harboring scum/null reads onto something more meangful.

Hopefully Nero actually is town. If so then I won’t get lynched for assoiatives. I don’r see a game where Scum!Nero won’t incriminate me with his flip. Regardless of his alignment is I don’t see a postion where I’d want to keep him around this game.

Town!Nero makes sense with Scum Hiraki actually :/


“town bloc”
I need to get Cheetory, Mutton, Kaska, Not Pual, and sling together and on good collaborative wave length. Lord save me.
Fourtently Mutton and Kaska are conftown, but I may need to provide a case on why Sling is town. Everybody seems to be ignoring Not Paul, so idk if he is mutual town read. I think everybody is okay with Cheetory town.
Almost most wonder if I could just come right out and propose town bloc. Biggest issue is keeping it together I think. Also Kaska isn’t about to trust me, so she may not want to be a part, or perhaps I need to try this after trying to get her to warm up to me

.

At this point I I’m spilling all my guts b/c I don’t see much point in pursuing my original plan since Giga is largely a more interactive capable leader type. Ans as of typing this I think she looks like town. I super wish I could not signed up for this game. I’ve felt useless for the majority of the game, and when I finally thought I was getting my self togather everything fell through agian.

I think that wirting down the directions I want to take things probably isn't the greatest idea when I was taking whatever I viewed from the game, and not the game itself. (I typed it up on a lap top that isn't connected to internet)

I guess this is also me sreaming that I wasn't lurking for the sake of it, and whilie I wasn't able to be here at several pivotal moments, I was _thinking_ about the game.

[Grendel]

I really unhappy rn b/c I feel like I’m established lynch bait down the road. I wish that I was given the time needed to come in and work out the game. I wish that I found the ebergy to hard defend Gamma/Kaska D1. I wish that Hadn’t been so quick to assume Account/Nero was town. I wish I had gotten players like Cheetory engaged with me earlier. List goes on…

If anything, this game has proven that I should never ever play more than two games at a time. 2/3rds of this game if been disengaged.

For the most part I’ve enjoyed none of it.

[Grendel]

i read through that and i'm happy i pushed nero over you

now - you said earlier you were waffling wrt nero? what aspects of his play are town, or were you just concered about him flipping scum and making you look worse (i'd rather see nero flip scum and then you ml'd than nero avoided outright.... or your flip lowering my towncred to get nero lynched)?

It was his predessor Accountant.

Their interactions with me felt legit. I'll have to pull quote s show what I'm talking about

I also took Cheet's earlt town read on Nero to seriously I thikn

[Grendel]

I think notsure is town because he has this air of "I'm right fools and if you disagree you're just bad at mafia" that is both unnatural to a scum (who knows for sure that they are wrong and fake) and also very hard to fake.

They were one of the first, idk if it was me or them who brought it up timeline wise, to say this. And the observation resonated with me really well then, and now.

it does seem consistent with what I know of their town game however

I thought that Accountant backing me up on my Gamma meta read was town motivated.

After all Gamma can be really easy to scum read.

grendel quick qn why didn't you RQS during making friends & enemies? because you were scum there?

I thought that is was a really town way to aproth this topic. Usually Im antipating scum to write off a player using RQS as Town, or Scum. Instead Accountant asked me about my precedence with the opener. Over all it felt more honest to me then categorizing and shiping with no purposeful interaction.

They were also one of the people that supported backhand lynch when i felt he was going under the radar D1.

[Grendel]

I wonder if that means Back hand is town tho...

If Accountant is scum then thay did all that stuff to buddy me, and I don't know if theyed vote a buddy to do that.

I once played a game with scum!Accountant, and they mentioned frequent busing, but I think site meta is leaning away from that now right?

Pre-edit

@Kraska

I normally don't play like this where I'm not as open with my thought processes. Its really all due to time constraints on my end. To suppliement I've had to take notes while away from the screen, and it shows. Like some of my reads are strong but I'm actually not able to substance them with more then a singular quote or two, because that's all I remember while I'm offline elsewhere. :/

[Grendel]

I feel like a big part of your disengagement from the game is probably my fault from how much of a sack of lurk I've been since D1.
I'm in kind of a mafia-rut atm and have been pretty busy this last little while.
I'm back from Kingston so I'm hoping to make some time to not be useless in this game again.
We can bounce some thoughts and maybe both gear back up to make some shit happen here?

Yes I would

[Grendel]

Thinking in retrospect CCC is probably town because he wouldn’t have been so paranoid of me this game as scum. Espesally after how I descrdited the wagons that formed on him throughout that first day. it was clear that I wasn’t super into lynching him for meta reasons. So I don’t think scum!CCC would ever throw shade against me unless it meant winning that game.

He is playing kinda bad rn, but I'm cleaving the baby in two and gonna say that it's not scummy bad.

Preedit

Re NotRealPual

Both those points where on my mind regarding him, Softing, and extended self vote.

Paul's pr thing was pretty likely town
I don't get why sling is town though, help me cone around?

Its partically meta, but I was spectating a game of his where he was lynched D1, he flipped town, and his behavior was exactly the dame it was here. Lots of snippy little retorts, and only directly reacting to players scum reading him, usally in a defensive manner.

Like I'd think at this point Scum!Sling would care more about self preservation then Town!sling. Since bieng a butt is not a very preservative quality to hold dear.

[Grendel]

Removing Mutton and Kraska my reads are something like this

Sling, NotPaul, Cheetory6,

Gigabyte, CCC,

Vedith, Backhand,

Hiraki, Nero Cain

I'm back on Hiraki.

Having a lot of town reads is a little scary tbh. I guess I could see one of Giga/CCC being scum under certain circumstances. I really don't feel like thinking about it now tho.

Vedith is 100% Poe for ob reasons. Lots of town looking players, not many scum reads I'm confedant on. Backhand is in same boat.

-Pre edit

@Not Paul

Spoiler:

It has more to with me feeling bad for people that are constantly lynched early because their playsytle isn't "palatable" to site meta. Like I'm not checked the logic of this speed wagon yet but odds are that CCC is getting lynched for null reasons. >.>

I don't think I said anything about you/NM getting lynched early. I know very little about both of you.

CCC gets run into the ground every D1 that he is town. The only exception I recall off hand is the only other game I played with him where I helped divert the pressure off him.

He has played a more null game, but I'm thinking that this wagon is not my pick.

I'll review the thread to be sure.

Eh.
VOTE: CCC
I really don't like this post:

My thoughts on the current top wagons:

Not_Mafia is a policy lynch. He's been pretty near silent. Then he put on two votes, claimed a gut scumread on Cheet and gave no explanation of the Gamma vote, and said Nero was town. That's a pretty pathetically minimal contribution to the state of the game, especially since having caught up, I suspect that the reason behind the Gamma vote was self-preservation (which is NAI because all roles benefit from self-preservation).

Gamma actually looks like scum for a variety of reasons, which I have gone over before.

So, I suspect that Not_Mafia is scum's mislynch for today. It's an easy wagon to push, since it's a policy lynch for a genuinely super-quiet player. It's also a wagon that does not reflect badly on scum-on-the-wagon if the slot flips Town. Therefore, I think that the only reason Not_Mafia's wagon has progressed so far, is that there is scum on it; if Not_Mafia is lynched today and flips Town, then I would recommend taking a very close look at everyone on that wagon tomorrow.

Currently, my vote is staying on Gamma/kraska77.

There's a lot that feels off with this post.
*

Especially the "tomorrow I will pick at the wagon". Seems a lot more like setup for tomorrow than a genuine interest in parsing the wagon itself, especially since there's nothing specific being unpacked here.

*
Also don't like the declaration of N_M being a policy lynch. The confidence there feels a little like it's coming from a place of too much information.

Because I'm Town?

I don't know how Cheetory's recognising that, mind you.

Also don't really like this post!
I'm kind of sucking at putting my feelings to thoughts tonight, but this is probably the only thing I feel anything for right now. If I have energy tomorrow I'll put more effort into sorting this if it doesn't just become a wagon.

The bolded portion is 100% how CCC thinks all the time. "Spare the unconfirmed and talk of the future where things are confirmed"

I think sounding "confidant" of a mislynch while not reading the players on a wagon, or breaking the wagon up, is an underlying commentary that CCC isn't that confidant at all. I don't disagree with your intal impression... normally that's a good point. However in this instance I think this isn't a correct.

I don't get the issue with the second post.

I don't think as scum I'd want to lynch a player that was sticking up for me like I was here for CCC. At least not until the game state had developed considerably (mid-late game)

[Grendel]

@Mutton

Sorry for the Garcia, but what were your concerns regarding Cheet?

I feel like my CCC read might be a personal thingy at this point. Maybe I can better articulate on it later.

[Grendel]

These are the reads that I went away with the other day:

Cheetory6, Gamma Emerald,

Slingshot, nero, MuttonChopMagic, NotTheRealPaul,

CCC, DeathRowKitty, ///// Not_Mafia, Penguin Power,

Hiraki, Backhand,

I want to lynch Backhand, but will consider compromising on {Not_Mafia, Penguin power, Hiraki}

I felt like I must have played rly incompetently but looking back. But it appears that my EoD Town reads are 4/5 thus far. Nero was an admitly lazy read that relied on the towness of preds interactions with me. Not Peul is the only town read of mine from D1 that isn't confirmed town as of yet. Anywho, I'm definitely feeling better about my play this game.

I wish I knew what went down N1 because if a protective saved somebody N1 outside of the three now confirmed town (Kraska, Cheet, Mutton) then that's four conf town, Which wins the game right?

[Grendel]

Oh, never mind, there are ten players alive.

I thought it was eight for a sec there.

[Grendel]

I think that my tr on Giga might be misplaced, some things I noticed that bothered me yesterday/today. Some scum bussing scum rhetoric that I noticed.

I should be back later tonight to talk about it.

[Grendel]

Giga's push on Nero yesterday does not merit a town read.

Consider this:

1) Regardless which alignment Giga subbed into they would view Nero to be OB!scum, as that was a reason they subbed into this game.

2) All players with the exception of cheetroy that had meta experience with Nero were hard scum reading him D2, (Kasrka/Mutton/sling) That left little wiggle room as to what Giga would do/say as scum regarding Nero’s slot. Giga has established themselves as utilizing meta as a scum hunting tool frequently. Seeing Giga make a poor meta-analysis on Nero would have been a red flag for the conftown suspecting Nero. Especially Karska who has plenty of previous experience with Gigabyte.

3) Scum Giga gets finicky over their scum buddies. In a game I recently modded they reflexively wanted to bus Ginngie for a scummy lol hammer, and felt like nancy discarding the proposed play was incorrect. So Giga’s perception of their buddies scuminess is much stronger from Giga’s POV then towns, and thus the urge to bus is higher than the average player.

4) Giga themselves remarked that Nero has poor scum play. The cost of attempting to keep him around would not have been worth the effort needed to do so.

This off course doesn’t establish that Giga is scum, but it does establish that Giga would lynch Nero yesterday regardless their alignment. That I'm certain of.

[Grendel]

@Giga

You'll confirm what I'm saying above is true?

[Grendel]

I felt like I must have played rly incompetently but looking back. But it appears that my EoD Town reads are 4/5 thus far.

Statiscally speaking, that's... not

actually

all that impressive.

You had six Townreads, out of twelve players. (You -

might

very well still be Mafia yourself; but for the purposes of the below calculation, I shall assume that you are not; I shall also assume a scumsize of three Mafia players).

Now, if you take six players at random out of twelve (in which there are three Mafia) then you will include either zero, one, two, or three Mafia, with the remainder in the half you left behind. The odds of choosing one are the same as the odds of choosing two the odds of choosing three are equal to the odds of choosing zero. In other words, the odds of a randomly selected six players out of twelve containing no more than

one

Mafia are exactly 50%.

So, even

if

NTRP is also Town... you're not exactly doing significantly better than random chance, here. (And if NTRP is scum - which admittedly is not looking all that likely - a random selection of six "townies" on Day One has a 50% chance of guessing at least as well as you).

...except you're not taking into account the D1 reads are often _worse_ then if all the reads where drawn from a random number generator. Breaking even with your reads on this site means that you're playing decently. Last time I checked "decent" is better then "incompetent". Why did you feel a need to comment on this anyway?

If you wanna do maths do something that furthers the game state. Don't do something that distracts players from the game. :/

I think that my tr on Giga might be misplaced, some things I noticed that bothered me yesterday/today. Some scum bussing scum rhetoric that I noticed.

I should be back later tonight to talk about it.

Cant wait for this.

Giga hardbus neto for towncred to win game? Was nero the only wagon D2?

Yes. (I don't think any other wagon managed to push to more than four posts over the entire day).

The disbelief you guys are voicing is the whole reason that scum will hard bus to win. Never totally write players off as town for leading a wagon on scum.

[Grendel]

Yup!

thank you

I would try to compel myself to push waffles though

but nero would be bussed at some point

But you said that you saw Waffles soft tracker...?

Why would you as scum push a player you thought was a power role?

[Grendel]

Ugh, that makes me feel like I should go back and reread that game for this one but its so longggg

I do think I came away with the gist of your play, but player specific interactions aren't coming to me off hand.

You pushed atrus off and on through out the game but never committed right?

[Grendel]

Ugh, that makes me feel like I should go back and reread that game for this one but its so longggg

I do think I came away with the gist of your play, but player specific interactions aren't coming to me off hand.

You pushed atrus off and on through out the game but never committed right?

@Gigabyte

[Grendel]

I don't think Sling was widely as scum read as Arutus tho. Just several players fed up with Slings play style and a couple legit srs VS over half the roster suspecting Art but pussyfooting away from voting due to D1 meta.

Optimal play for you may have been buddying/ignoring in Slings case I think.

[Grendel]

wait really?

I should revist that game before we continue talking about this lol

[Grendel]

Apologies for not addressing you directly in these Giga, I was typing it up while you weren't around.

oh look, I'm everyone's top scumread now, besides maybe Hiraki and Cheet. Like that should be a huge neon sign that I'm a mislynch.

i dont think a scumteam with you tries to save you ever lmfao

anyway cheetory and hiraki are next, wanted to address my scumread first

still townreading the wagon comp here

that kill and nero's self hammer strongly implies that the wagon was all town sans nero imo

unless that was a vig kill lol

the first thing i want to look at today is the day 1 wagons now that we have a scumflip

Saying things like, “Scum team is never saving you”, while coming into today with the thought that Nero’s wagon had no scum on it does not add up. The first thought is a clear implication that scum _would_ in fact bus Nero, yet Giga keeps finding reasons that Nero wouldn't be bussed in this game. It registers as an excuse to lynch people off the wagon.

Which, is classic trade mark of bussing scum maximizing on newly nested opportunities. In a SWOT analisis, scum are always classify post filp associative as prime pickings. That is also where their reads begin, premature to a flip, tying their buddy to town long before a flip happens.

grendel can you tell me why you're not voting nero

Example A would be me.

Also I think the rhetoric around the all clean wagon on Nero could be easily changed depending whether or not I/Hiraki/Back/Vedith were on it. Overall looking planned vs developed when town usually doesn't play that strategically. Planned being a strategic mindset, while development falls between tactics and strategy.

[Grendel]

@Gigabyte

I think I should clarify that at this point you aren't a strong scum read, and I'm not interested in lynching you currently. I am however, taking precautions because I don't want scum!you slipping by unnoticed into the endgame. Like I can’t trust town to not wonder why power town Giga keeps not dying lol

I am, of course, predicting a game where we don't end up in the end game together. I think its pretty likely I'm getting lynched at some point.

[Grendel]

RAINBOW READS!!

kraska77

MuttonChopMagic

Cheetory6

CCC

gigabyteTroubadour

NotTheRealPaul

Grendel

Backhand

Hiraki

Okay guys...Here it is!
And before scum say that Implosion told me who scum are, no... I worked it out by myself.

Also, I'm a PR. A backup \o/

So, you can all start chanting my name now. I solved the game.

VOTE: Hiraki

I don't think I have much to say here beyond that if you believe BackhandXHiraki are the remaining scum I should be much more green.

[Grendel]

triple C, as annoyingly bad as N_M is we aren't lynching a claimed PR.

Oh.

P-Edit: I was feeling Hiraki/Vedith as partners yesterday pretty hard, but Nero being scum makes me feel less sure about Hiraki being scum?

I'll look into their interactions later, but what were your reasons NeroxHiraki don't work?

[Grendel]

@Giga

Here are a few other things I meant to ask/say yesterday, but didn't get a chance to.

Spoiler:

i read through that and i'm happy i pushed nero over you

now - you said earlier you were waffling wrt nero? what aspects of his play are town, or were you just concered about him flipping scum and making you look worse (i'd rather see nero flip scum and then you ml'd than nero avoided outright.... or your flip lowering my towncred to get nero lynched)?

I missed the second part. Yes, I was concerned that Nero’s flipping scum would make me look worse.

I think I mentioned it before, but its not uncommon for town me to poke null/weaker reads for info and interactions. If 1)that player turns out to be mafia, and 2) they keep their responses low-key, or delayed then I end up getting grilled for assossiative tells. Its quite frustrating actually, and I think made my overall reaction D2 much stronger once I realized it happened agian.

I generally think I have less issue with that as scum.

tbh I'm having trouble forming reads this game because I've gotten into a bad habit of accidentally scumreading most power roles as town but I think I understand how it happens and I'm being overly careful to not let myself fall into that this game and it's making me weird and cagey because avoiding it requires me to be more careful and I haven't really felt able to do so since I fell behind once in this game and that's been locking me into only being able to talk about the subset of players I feel like I've put enough effort into separating properly in that way

and now i'm just playing like shit in a different way than usual so that's useful

That souns like the opposite of my problem, where I scum read town power forcing them to cliam.

If you weren't being careful where would you reads be?

also grendel i really hope you're not town here :////////////

ftr I’ve never seen “blatant” role fishing come from scum. I’ve only seen it from town that didn’t think things through before posting. It’s a legit awful reason to scum read somebody, and comes super close to, “If they’re not scum their terribad town”.

Do me a flavor, Can you think of any games where scum blatantly role fished?

Grendel's reads' progression is non existent. It really reads like he's starting from conclusions and making his way back

that and i dont think town scumreading a slot (backhand) as strongly as he did just has that read drop off the face of the earth

and his read on me/push is shit too lmfao

((also i thought u were asking whats hiraki's deal lmao))

I didn't understand how you could think my push was in its entirety bad when Death row Kitty was giving me nothing to work with interaction wise. I didn't look back at the slot until D2 becuase their slot was super null express.

I was still scum reading Back hand. I cloudn’t think of how to articulate why due to one of the biggests reasons I thought he could be scum being a ethically grey thing that could be inappropriate to pick at. I wanted to make a case that was sans that, but never got around to it.

Spoiled since some of it is dated.

[Grendel]

@Giga

Here are a few other things I meant to ask/say yesterday, but didn't get a chance to.

Spoiler:

i read through that and i'm happy i pushed nero over you

now - you said earlier you were waffling wrt nero? what aspects of his play are town, or were you just concered about him flipping scum and making you look worse (i'd rather see nero flip scum and then you ml'd than nero avoided outright.... or your flip lowering my towncred to get nero lynched)?

I missed the second part. Yes, I was concerned that Nero’s flipping scum would make me look worse.

I think I mentioned it before, but its not uncommon for town me to poke null/weaker reads for info and interactions. If 1)that player turns out to be mafia, and 2) they keep their responses low-key, or delayed then I end up getting grilled for assossiative tells. Its quite frustrating actually, and I think made my overall reaction D2 much stronger once I realized it happened agian.

I generally think I have less issue with that as scum.

tbh I'm having trouble forming reads this game because I've gotten into a bad habit of accidentally scumreading most power roles as town but I think I understand how it happens and I'm being overly careful to not let myself fall into that this game and it's making me weird and cagey because avoiding it requires me to be more careful and I haven't really felt able to do so since I fell behind once in this game and that's been locking me into only being able to talk about the subset of players I feel like I've put enough effort into separating properly in that way

and now i'm just playing like shit in a different way than usual so that's useful

That souns like the opposite of my problem, where I scum read town power forcing them to cliam.

If you weren't being careful where would you reads be?

also grendel i really hope you're not town here :////////////

ftr I’ve never seen “blatant” role fishing come from scum. I’ve only seen it from town that didn’t think things through before posting. It’s a legit awful reason to scum read somebody, and comes super close to, “If they’re not scum their terribad town”.

Do me a flavor, Can you think of any games where scum blatantly role fished?

Grendel's reads' progression is non existent. It really reads like he's starting from conclusions and making his way back

that and i dont think town scumreading a slot (backhand) as strongly as he did just has that read drop off the face of the earth

and his read on me/push is shit too lmfao

((also i thought u were asking whats hiraki's deal lmao))

I didn't understand how you could think my push was in its entirety bad when Death row Kitty was giving me nothing to work with interaction wise. I didn't look back at the slot until D2 becuase their slot was super null express.

I was still scum reading Back hand. I cloudn’t think of how to articulate why due to one of the biggests reasons I thought he could be scum being a ethically grey thing that could be inappropriate to pick at. I wanted to make a case that was sans that, but never got around to it.

Spoiled since some of it is dated.

[Grendel]

^^^

Mod delete the double post plz

[Grendel]

@Mutton & Kraska

How positive are you that Backhand is town?

[Grendel]

also, scum didn't block me last night
either they blocked Paul and tried to shoot me or they don't have a blocker here
but... this setup seems really townsided so idk
at least us 3 are basically vanilla ics today

Slingshotwaffles

died

last night. There's a number of ways that could have happened if they tried to shoot you, I guess... but none of them seem particularly likely.

afaik all roles capable of misdirecting night actions onto other players are blacklisted in normal.

Nexus/BusDriver/Redirector etc

[Grendel]

RAINBOW READS!!

kraska77

MuttonChopMagic

Cheetory6

CCC

gigabyteTroubadour

NotTheRealPaul

Grendel

Backhand

Hiraki

Okay. Backhand/Hiraki does make some sense as a scumteam. (I'd still like an explanation of how you figured it out, Vedith, so that I can test the strength of your reasoning).

The thing is, though, that Vedith/Grendel

also

makes sense as a scumteam. (So does Vedith/Hiraki, for that matter).

So. Two options.

One, Vedith is Town. He really has solved the game; the solution is above.

Two, Vedith is scum. He is lying through his teeth.

Personally, I think that the second is more likely. And on the off-chance that he

does

flip Town - well, then we'd have a completely solved game and just need to go through the lynches.

VOTE: Vedith

Can you elaborate more on the team compositions and why you think they exist?

It isn't all based off VCA is it?

[Grendel]

your analysis wasn't wrong that i don't have a strong read either way toward him but by there's a shorter list of people who can actually be scum so he's maybe on it. I don't think /we/ dictate things anymore either - not really ever in this game tbh. i also think grendel's psuedo push on giga right now is 10 times worse than what you're saying though

Okay, so you are in a position where you think a player could be scum but not strongly so. You yourself are a tertiary sr for everybody and their mother. You therefore know that if they are in fact scum that you won't live long enough to catch them, and you don't count on said player to get called out later on b/c roster says they are OB!town.

What would you do in that situation

?

[Grendel]

I think the worst thing I saw in regards to Vediths slot was that point where Nero unvoted Not mafia D1 when NM started gaining steam.

but that's it?... everything else is null

I haven't read that wall Vedith posted yet ethier. All them post links inviting cross examination are intimidating.

[Grendel]

Yeah but I'm right.

For what it's worth, you've got me pretty much convinced that one of you or Backhand is scum. So, my plan is to vote for you today and wait for the flip - if you're sum, then my next target is Grendel, while if you're Town, then my next target is Backhand.

Unless new information comes in or someone presents a particularly persuasive case, that is.

If Vedith is scum I'm okay with getting lynched tomorrow b/c I think town still has a good shot to win by lynching Backhand afterwards.

I don't think Giga/Hiraki would be with Vedith!Scum.

[Grendel]

if you think that i am that poor of a player vedith, then i've learned how much you think of me - i'm not going through all of this but 575 is absolutely not fake, I can link at least 5 games where I do the same exact thing

vedith's reads assume that everyone who defended nero must be scum and that's the end all, that's a very naive way of thinking about the game

ok but how much do you apologize to me in the post-game for being wrong?

I don't see Hiraki using emotional manipulation on a buddy here.

[Grendel]

I do think that its weird that Hiraki as scum would hard defend Nero into infinity. But I don't think its enough to dissuade me from wanting to flip Hiraki. At a certain point experienced scum realize that it still looks better to be wrong, but have conviction with their original stance then to try and back pedal into a bus.

Cuase I don't think being on Nero yesterday would have done anything for Hiraki's town cred. Why not dig in his heels at that point?

[Grendel]

i think to win the game, the best route is

Grendel -> CCC (only here because I realize that I need to start compromising) -> Backhand -> Cheetory (unless he's a neighbor now?)

So I'm your only legit scum read?

[Grendel]

I think the worst thing I saw in regards to Vediths slot was that point where Nero unvoted Not mafia D1 when NM started gaining steam.

but that's it?... everything else is null

I haven't read that wall Vedith posted yet ethier. All them post links inviting cross examination are intimidating.

That's a huge thing though! CCC's analysis of vedith's analysis is exactly right--you could use that kind of logic to indict almost any two players in the game, if you're willing to say "look, here's where they were bussing and here's where they weren't." There's no underlying predictive value there.

There's nothing wrong with a gutread, but at least admit that that's what you're doing instead of "I already decided they were scum look here's what they were doing because they were scum"

That second point is just Vedith being himself.

I'm not going to fight Vediths lynch, but I'm not super inclined to join either lol.

I do think that its weird that Hiraki as scum would hard defend Nero into infinity. But I don't think its enough to dissuade me from wanting to flip Hiraki. At a certain point experienced scum realize that it still looks better to be wrong, but have conviction with their original stance then to try and back pedal into a bus.

Cuase I don't think being on Nero yesterday would have done anything for Hiraki's town cred. Why not dig in his heels at that point?

I don't think hiraki should be cleared by any means--its light evidence that I don't think a buddy would go so far to defend him in the first place. But its definitely not impossible.

Also, I'm definitely letting vedith's garbage case get to me and it makes me just want to string him up--but what should actually happen is letting our three confirmed townies tell us what to do.

So hurry up and tell us to lynch vedith, kraska/cheet

It was a weird thought where I originally got the quote to say that I thought the Hiraki probably wasn't scum with Nero. Then I was typing I realized he could still be. I guess it was a pointless post.

Anyways, Why are you in such a rush?

[Grendel]

@Cheeetory

triple C, as annoyingly bad as N_M is we aren't lynching a claimed PR.

Oh.

P-Edit: I was feeling Hiraki/Vedith as partners yesterday pretty hard, but Nero being scum makes me feel less sure about Hiraki being scum?

I'll look into their interactions later, but what were your reasons NeroxHiraki don't work?

Cheetory you said you'd talk to me more today!

[Grendel]

Missed that post sorry! (You have a lot of them and I'm frankly finding it difficult not to skim them when there's so many dense ones in a row yo.)
I just didn't really feel like scumHiraki relentlessly defends Nero on the bare premise of "I don't see any case on him".
I do honestly feel like my reads are objectively kind of terrible right now though so, take how I'm feeling with a grain of salt.

I would have tried to space my posts out better if could. Its just, I only of certin points of time I can come into play this game. So when I get an extended window of time I gotta jump on it.

That was my initial impression Regarding Hiraki's play yesterday. But I'm not so sure now. Was hoping you had something beyond that tbh

You said Back hand is town right? Why is that?

[Grendel]

I'm okay with a mass claim.

I'll be back tomorrow!

[Grendel]

Was somebody supposed to cliam before me or do I cliam now lol?

I'm having student email issues so I won't be back until late tonight.

Pre-edit: Oh yeah, that means we should have another conf town if Vedith protected outside of the already conf town right?

[Grendel]

I'm The great and almighty Vanilla Townie!
---

I will publicly endorse the Hiraki wagon!

VOTE: Hiraki

[Grendel]

I don't think two back ups are a common occurrence in these set ups.

Hiraki took no interest in N_M's Back-up claim outside of saying that he wasn't interested in lynched a claimed pr.

I'll check some completed closed set ups to be sure, but I don't see two back ups in the same game.

[Grendel]

One is a claimed PR, the other one is being scummy - I have no clue how it is more favorable either!!!!

Scanning his iso I think that this was the first time he referenced N_M's cliam. Doesn't sound like somebody suspicious of a faux back-up claim to me.

I think my lynch is inevitable, honestly. Your lynch doesn't delay it.

Since when does town power become so pessimistic that they'll hang?

[Grendel]

If there's a mod that's going to be weird shit into a normal game, it's implosion.
IE: I would not be shocked at all if Vedith or Hiraki are scum and are claiming their actual roles here.

I'm aware that implo likes funky set ups. I remember him referencing a game he modded where with two macho townies included in the set up.

Its just that two back up prs implies two more power roles. We already have Loyal friendly neighbor, and a flipped neighbor. Which means we probably have another neighbor somewhere.

So that's three right off the bat. Plus Whatever Puel is, plus two back up prs.

That would mean that there is up to

seven power roles in this set up if nobody is lying

. I don't think that'd pass inspection lol

[Grendel]

Since when does town power become so pessimistic that they'll hang?

A backup motion detector?
You really think that's a deterrence to a lynch?

Maybe its just me, but if I had power role that could be used to help town I'm probably not talking like I'm getting lynched. ever.

That whole line of thought felt fake to me since he came out with it right after I voiced similar sentiments.

[Grendel]

Oh I'm not saying it's bad.
Just saying that Implosion is one of those mods who is likely going to push the boundaries of what someone is going to expect from a mafia setup though, even in a normal game.

Actually wait.

Could two backs-up be passed if the real role(s) are not in the set up?

Like is that bastard or?

[Grendel]

Since when does town power become so pessimistic that they'll hang?

I'm a back-up.

Scanning his iso I think that this was the first time he referenced N_M's cliam. Doesn't sound like somebody suspicious of a faux back-up claim to me.

This doesn't even make sense.

Two-back ups in one set up and you didn't raise your eye brow?

Maybe its just me, but if I had power role that could be used to help town I'm probably not talking like I'm getting lynched. ever.

keyword could -

explain to me how me - person who just came off of hardcore defending Nero who flips scum has any credibility with any power role?

i have no reason to try and defend against claims that because i claimed therefore the game is unbalanced and /my claim/ is the one that is most unbalanced because of non balance reasons

Pretty sure that Vedith is the only player that is adamant you're scum for hard defending Nero.

Everybody else could see situations were you could do that as town.

[Grendel]

pretty sure =/= actual

other than your godly rqs tells that are about to be blown out, everyone is clearly looking at me under a stringent lens for those actions

You know at this point that I dislike snipes.

The whole reason I barely engaged you directly this game is b/c your insistent on dragging ppl who have their own opinians.

Like I don't get why you are being such a headache this game

and no - that post had nothing to do with back-ups, i'm not a setup person and i'd rather catch people being scum for being scummy - i also know that the mod likes to make weird setups, since setup stuff is probably one of my weaker attributes, i'd rather have someone more experienced handle that stuff

^Can anybody else verity this?

[Grendel]

this is just to help people setup spec so no fear
neighbours are not prs and are not weighted period balancing wise ever with the nrg

okay, I thought that they were weighted to be a little more then a VT

I'm alright with setup spec, but not good at doing it off the cuff.

It sounded weird to me to have another investigative role outside of the loyal friendly in the first place. Was thinking that NPual was going to be the role stopper, not a motion detector.

Yesterday I was thinking that: {RoleStopper, RoleStopper back up, Friendly loyal neighbor, and a neighborhood} was balanced. Rolestopper is more powerful then a doctor, and the friendly is a bit better then a cop. Then the back up and neighborhood take up more slots. Together that be 5-6 non-vanillia roles. Which is a lot as is for a mini normal on this site.

Throwing a motion detector, and back up for the motion detector... it seems like a lot to me. Even subtracting the neighborhood.

Have standards changed for mini normal set-ups here in the past four to five months?

[Grendel]

Scum have also flipped a Goon, and don't have full day talk.

I should check and see some of Implosion's previous set ups tomorrow.

[Grendel]

seven power roles in this set up if nobody is lying

They're backups, not power roles. I just checked the wiki, including backups without primary roles is allowed in normal games. Also Hiraki gains nothing by claiming backup motion detector. Also you are scum

What about scum?

Can scum can have back ups of town roles outside of open set ups?

[Grendel]

Grendel/Hiraki distancing?
Hiraki being this demotivated by Neroflip doesn't seem real and something about Grendel's push reads forced to me.

It reminded me of a game I played with Lil Uzi Vert where he as scum claimed a power role while in a masscliam.

I fell for it because I thought, "scum wouldn't do that when they could slide by with a vt claim," Also the role he fake claimed is pretty ironic given this situation, he claimed

Motion Detector

!

[Grendel]

Spoiler:

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

This makes no sense.

Why are we mass claiming?

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

I'm a Town Motion Dectector. I targeted Jar N1 and I targeted Anakrin's slot N2.

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

that was easy.

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

I'm a Town Motion Dectector. I targeted Jar N1 and I targeted Anakrin's slot N2.

Bull fucking shit

VOTE: LUV

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

Wait what just happened lol?

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

Why is it bull?

Subject: Mini 1875: Pine's Death Trap Post Game - Town win!

Cop
Backup Cop
Full Jailkeeper
Full Bulletproof
Full Motion Detector

something ain't adding up here mang.

That being said Hiraki probably is telling the truth about his role. Otherwise he'd have to be scum with NotPual, which is

anyway

UNVOTE:

I'll treat Hiraki as if he is town for a moment and look over some other players tomarrow. I still think that scum back up is a possibility given the amount of perceived power roles this set up has.

[Grendel]

Please don't hammer until I give my final reads. I'll probably need a day or two to get them together.

This roster in general has been a trial since the majority of people I've been town reading the whole game are the same people that at most inclined to think I'm scum. >.>

[Grendel]

VOTE: Backhand

Its probably BackhandxHiraki (Like I've been saying the whole game)

I could possibly sub Giga in either position because they clearly know I'm town at this point.

I'll look at every player just to be safe.

[Grendel]

Ok I'm done reading both accpuntant and nero's iso's
Accountant waltzed into the game saying it's full of VIs, and spent a good portion of day 1 piling on notsure, gamma and waffles. Accountant iso emanates lots of confidence in surviving till endgame, we already know that 3/4 people they pushed either flipped green or are confirmed town at this point. With the exceptions of backhand. Halfway through day one accountant switched gears and campained strongly for a backhand wagon...., dpesnt make much sense for a widely townread accountant who is strongly manipulating the flow of the game, to get off the lynchbaits that everyone wanted lynched and bus backhand instead

You're dead wroung btw

Accountant is known for being a hard busser. They bus when they are confidant, not just because they think they needed town cred.

Pre-edit

Why vote Backhand over Hiraki when Hiraki is the counterwagon?

Because of the two Hirkai is getting lynched in the future. Back back will probably slip past everybodies radar and into the end game.

There for I don't need to voice my suspicions against Hiraki like I do Back Hand

[Grendel]

Why vote Backhand over Hiraki when Hiraki is the counterwagon?

I also decided I'm the correct lynch today btw.

I'm not going to get my counter wagons "lynched", I just want to box then in the best I can.

Like I'd have to be an idoit to believe that people are going to listen to me at this point. Therefore my flip is optimal vs being wroung on one of {Hiraki/Backhand} today, and getting lynched tomorrow.

[Grendel]

VOTE: Backhand

Its probably BackhandxHiraki (Like I've been saying the whole game)

Before the mass claim, I would have agreed that this was a strong possibility; but how do you fit this around Hiraki and NTRP's claims?

(Mind you, BackhandxGigabyte is not impossible).

Scum-Back-Up

Read my posts ccc

[Grendel]

Ugh I think this is town vedith...vedith vote grendel with me pls
Giga is definitely town here...grendel continues to distance himself from the main happenings of the game and wallposts on an outside shot instead... he's scum
Backhand, giga, vedith and Paul are town
That leaves hiraki and ccc as candidates for last scum
VOTE: grendel

Your case is a total mischaractizion for what I was trying to achieve and an assumption that I wouldn't get to "The Main Happenings" when the "Main Happenings" revolved around waiting for Vedith to post something AI. There was nothing to add to that that hadn't already been said.

From here on out you need to put more effort into the game. Being conftown doesn't just keep lazy reads. Go back and actually read the stuff I said about Giga. Don't dismiss it because if they are scum they will rely on you heavy into lylo to win.

[Grendel]

*@Backhand*

Results:

N1 forgot to watch

N2: Watched MCM and saw motion

I dont see who made motion on what so pretty much I can only check BT claims and make sure they are in fact VT :/

Do you really see NTRP's buddies forgetting to tell him to use his powers?

[Grendel]

Guys no-one unvotes pls

Grwndel is scum because:
- the defeatist attitude on early day 2 did not make sense given the game state; only one town dead and no nightkills, plus no-one was really pestering him other than me, and I was voting nero not even him
- very passive play on day 1, grendel did not put any effort into getting wagons going on his scumreads, it's like he made sure none of his votes transpire into lynches. Made non-controversial votes ,like his vote-park on pp, and had NOTHING to say about me/Nero competing wagons
-Lots of vote hopping and scrambling today, one minute giga is scum, next it's Hiraki, then back to backhand

You don't get it.

I'm not trying to dishevel my wagon. At this point my lynch is optimal b/c you are going to continue to be useless until I'm gone.

[Grendel]

I have to go,

I'll be back roughly five hours to give reads then Cheet can hammer.

I was hoping the have longer to sort my reads and give further directives to town to not be stupid. But I don't think that town will give me the breathing space to do that in any meaningful facet.

[Grendel]

Hello! This thread escalated quickly.

MCM, why make a big post on CCC and not change your vote?

I actually had a scum read on Backhand before he ever posted in the game because I distinctly remember him being online the day that the game was lunched for at least four hours (that was the same amount of time I was online that night). He never showed up to the thread proper to post anything, and was not posting anywhere else on site. I even checked later. The 3rd of June was when this game started, Backhand has no posts in the other two games that were having game over discussion on the 3rd, but does have posts on the 2nd, and 4th. Backhands first post in this game was the 4th. Ei, Backhand was probably hiding out in the scum PT the day the game started.

This was the ethically gray thing I wasn't gonna mention. I decided I might as well if it lynches scum tomarrow.

[Grendel]

I read Backhands iso in his two other completed games the past few days. He was town in both:

Mini Theme 1915
-Active and inquisitive. (His post count is double what it is this game, and the game ended in the 70’s.)
-Lots of Game solving. Over all more detailed+fliud reads and pushes.
-Draws constant attention to himself D1 with his reads and pushes.

Mini Normal 1905
- Inquisitive, and as active as time allotted for a faster paced game.
-Combative, Direct.
-Detailed reads with lots of team analysis as time went on.
-Was against policy lynches in this game

I think that Back hand doesn’t have the same level of interaction going for him this game as his previous games as town. He basically flew underneath the radar with the exception of that four person wagon. Which only lasted a faction of D1.

I also think that the contrast in his feeling on letting useless/low content players live is very interesting. I think that 1905 could have changed his feelings about policy lynches. I also think that it could be a convient crutch of Backhand to lean on as scum. It was already voiced by potential scumbuddy Accountant that the roster was full of VI’s D1. If you look as Backhands scum reads D1 the majority of them were in direct result of the players making objectively bad players then plays that were actually scummy.

Giga not seeing the differences on Backhand’s posting style from 1915 to this game is also setting off a red flag.

[Grendel]

zzz

VOTE: hiraki

and no it's not just 2280 but i really am not feeling grendel scum any more

I'm never town reading you this game Giga

You'll want to lynch me now regardless your alignment b/c I'm lynching you if we are in lylo together

[Grendel]

grendel literally what tactical benefit did that unvote have

You're talking like you believe my lynch won't go through without your help.

Also don't believe that Hiraki vote is legit for a hot second. As scum Giga I predict that game playing out like this:

Watch Grendel lynch> lynch Vedith>Bus Hariki> Recant CCC/Backhand and endgame

[Grendel]

Unless Back hnad is scum.

I don't see BackHandxGiga being a thing b/c that would mean that both back ups are town

[Grendel]

Ugh crap, the team probably is just BackhandxHaraki/rolestopper/Vedith.

I'll post this case on Giga just to be safe. I went through the trouble of pulling quotes for it so I could work on it on my "offline" lap top while I cooked dinner. I still think GigaXHiraki could be a thing. But It feels tunnel-y now that I'm back in the thread proper. :/

Spoiler:

A thing I noticed was that there was no interest in Giga what so ever beyond consensus town reads.

In a previous game I pulled a gambit where I posted a case against OB!Town to fish for scum wanting to endorse a mislynch. (Game was Mini normal 1838 if anybody is interested) Scum did in fact take the bait, unfortunately the scum in question was a strong town read so I dismissed it.

While it wasn’t my intention when I posted the “reasons Giga should not be town read” I couldn’t help but notice that there was zero interest or agnkowledgement about what I was saying. If Giga is truly town then why doesn’t scum capitalize on the paranoia I created?

also fwiw i thought slingshot softed tracker really hard which is why i townread him >_>

I checked Sling shot and saw nothing that stood out to me as a crumb.

If Giga is being honest then this is practically a scum slip.

Also should be noted that Giga who frequently utilizes NKA fails to mention that Sling kill is a strong point against Grendel!Scum. Sling was Ob!town but poor at interacting with other players, and forming meaningful reads. He was town reading me, and odds are I could have kept it that way.

ok i keep getting sidetracked to hell and back but i'm getting to this at some point. preliminary thoughts so i'm not just prodging:

grendel's push on me isnt scum motivated necessarily, it is something he will eventually have to do as scum but it's a legitimate thought he would have as town. i think nero's responses to me (and his selfhammer) though should be telling enough that he's wrong. i have yet to look at how he's reevaluated if at all

i think vedith's bullheadedness is scummy here and i would expect him to maybe be more suspicious of me as town but his case might be town (has vedith put in that much effort into a game as scum?). will have to comb through it closely

hiraki...... i will feel horrible about if he's town (same with grendel but i'm more confident he's town here) but poe is making me like him less

i really don't see ccc's play as scum motivated, just bad and irrationally rational if that makes sense. he only deserves a second look if hiraki is town, i think kraska's point with Accountant complaining about VI's is salient here and makes them unlikely partners

backhand fits the bill of someone distancing from nero but that also means he's likely to be town too - i also dont think i've read any of his posts until i joined the game so??

this is a fuckton of waffling but this is specifically how i'm waffling atm. will see if new posts affect any of these thoughts.

Giga really should be seeing a BackhandxHiraki team at this point, but opting to vote me when they clearly can see I’m town is bad in general.

HirakixGiga is very likely if you consider my lynch today being a deliberation on Hiraki’s lynch.

Nero’s responses to Giga don’t point against a S/S relationship. Its standard reactionary stuff that scum could pull off easily when distancing. Like most scum aren’t going to uncomfortably lurk out the thread when getting bussed. They would want to help maximize buddies town cred through arguments.

like grendel's defeatist attitude is sitting well with me here and is exactly how i would expect him specifically as town to feel here

ccc doesnt make sense with the gamestate as scum.

This is a lot of assumptions about a player that Giga claims to not know well enough to meta. Its wholly unbelievable to me.
What’s more is that if they did believe it they wouldn’t have “:neutral: ” voted me.

ughgeg

VOTE: grendel

ftr i dont have a good feeling about this but i dont really see a better choice with vedith's claim

Shoddy compromise vote. I’ve been bleeding town Since D2 but Giga doesn’t want to admit and stick to that conclusion because it won’t help their win-con.

[Grendel]

I'll have to post more about Backhand tomarrow.

I'll get to Hiraki as well.

Table of contents for what I want to do befored dying:

-Finish Back hand case
-Case Hiraki
-Lol what Vedith's alignment is
-Brief reasons for why town are town
- Parting words

^Basically my bucket list and I want to get it done before hammering. So no hammering until its done.

[Grendel]

On an objective level I think my lynch is beneficial as all conf town will never not look at me with squinty eyes if I keep on living this game.

For the sake of getting them to do something useful tomorrow I'm fine with getting lynched.
---
LIFE: Today my grandmother lost her glasses and I spent all this afternoon and evening looking for them. As such I'm behind in my home work, and low on patience.

I'll be back in a couple hours.

[Grendel]

*@All*

I'd like to pick at the plausibility of a scum aligned role stopper. I think that NotPual successfully visiting Mutton N2 is a decent indication that the stopper is scum aligned. As a scum role stopper would target their own to achieve a tempory ascetic modification, preventing a buddy from getting guiltied. I do not see a likely world where town role stopper does not protect Mutton, an ousted investigative.

Therefore I'd be wary of any rolestopper claims from uncleared players in the future. I would like you all to agree and come back to this point when and if a role stopper claims. Consider it a solid for me.

Pre-edit

Why is 1917 so important?

[Grendel]

Tbh I don't really have much energy for this game. I was hedging my bets on getting lynched this day phase so I don't get burned out down the line, and lose the game for everybody.

Like you guys are getting paranoid I'm town now, but if I'm wrong about Hiraki/Backhand then I'm toast lol

[Grendel]

Spoiler:

I think most of last night's discussion is hard to parse. A problem with theory discussion (not that I've never been guilty of doing it) is that people will generally be honest about their theory thoughts and even if you disagree, your feelings about RQS are probably not scum or town indicative.

As I said above though, CCC is pretty obviously town. Think Cheetory and DRK have done a good job of trying to move forward, slight townreads there.

Everyone else somewhere in the middle.

Leaning Scum:

MCM is obnoxious and going to be really hard to read, OMGUS voted grendel, we could do worse.

I agree accountant's VI post is more "gotcha" than real but it did ping me, I'm not forgetting about it.
Raya was a little on the defensive side, would like her to come back and catch up.

The more I reread MCM's stuff the less I like it. I don't believe that he believes that rqs is actually a scumtell.

Vote MCM

idk, when I read this it looks like Back Hand taking advantage of Mutton's speech gimmick.

"Player x is mildly annoying, and there are ppl voting him. Sounds like a safe place to start."

VOTE: BackHand

I don't really want to put up with a contrivance the whole game, and I'll admit that's probably coloring my views, but if you look past that to the content, you get:

An OMGUS vote, poorly explained
An OMGUS vote, not at all explained

I'm baffled as to why anyone would townread the slot.

I may be taking it too far the other way. I also don't want to have to put up with this all game, and it's leaving a bad impression - so to compensate, I'm completely ignoring my general impression and trying to work on explicit tells only.

That's what scares me--that people are compensating too much.

My first game here was viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71640 where it became very clear in retrospect that we had all given rb and thefuzzylogic too much leeway in not engaging with the game because they both had weird or disengaged playstyles. Maybe I'm overreacting to that one game, but as long as me and mcm are both in the game he'll be under increased scrutiny from me.

But I'm feeling better with this morning's interactions.

Vote notmafia

Haven't caught up yet, or don't want to? Whatcha thinking?

Alright, we gotta do something. Not_mafia's one game-relevant sentence does not move me off of thinking he's the best choice. Of the other people under real discussion, gamma would be my next choice. I do not think NTRP or PP are scum. If there's time for a flashwagon on nero I'd join, accountant's play slightly pinged me and nero hasn't done anything except park on one of the easy lynches (PP).

Yeah. . . maybe. Could also be rid of him because *another* replacement cannot be good for the game, its already hard enough to remember who replaced who.

<Regarding Gamma's replace out

Also jesus, one of mutton or gamma please switch your avatar.

P-Edit: Why are you wanting to kill Not_Mafia?
Explain it to me like I'm stupid.

Well, if you give me that kind of opportunity

Towns actually suck at lynching scum Day 1. Always have, always will (because they don't know anything and the scum do). We have a player who has not said a single useful word. Doesn't mean he's scum, but as town we're probably going to fuck this one up anyway. If he keeps not saying anything, he's not getting nightkilled. Would you rather still have a player we have no way of getting info from lingering on Day 3, or endgame?

Plus the principle of it. I want to keep playing with people who are playing the game.

Backhand expressed willingness to lynch players with the underlying motivation that the lynch was ultimately not about alignment, but about getting rid of bad posters.

There wasn’t much behind his Penguin vote, but it was a deadline compromise vote on a wagon that Backhand townread.

He also went on to town read players actually producing Content that day {Me, CCC, DeathrowKitty, later Kraska and Cheet} despite many of use probably being able to fake good D1 content as scum. It felt like he was looking at a check box for acceptable activity, and we made the grade. Like little introspective about motivations outside of... maybe Kraska. Backhand was a very strong gut town read on Kraska from their entrance onward.

I think that the only low content poster he town read was Not Puel, and that was over a town slip, and pr soft.

Overall it’s a very black/white approach to the game for a player that doesn’t seem to be a normally hard line player. I say this because Backhand keeps a pretty chill rhetoric even when annoyed this game. (I think that clashes a bit with his first game here where he was frustrated to the point of cursing and dramatics) Like I guess I could see him being a “it is my way or nobodies” if he had the same level of frustration at getting called out here that he did elsewhere, but I don’t see that. Low content always equals scummy, high content is always town is a really simplistic way to view it. Like even taking into consideration that it was D1 it felt shoehorned in there.


Could also see Backhand keeping Nero as back pocket read, He had a stated candor to lynch Nero that never seems to come ful circle D1. I wish that Kraska wasn’t Conf!towned so quickly so I could see if the pattern persisted.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Nero Cain

Yeah, but he's been worse since then. I really don't think kraska is scum, this feels exactly right to me.

Like, I could be wrong, but kraska is just oozing genuine feeling frustration at being wagoned in a way that doesn't feel scummy to me and I'm honestly not confident that Gamma didn't just replace out because he genuinely wasn't getting into the game [which I feel is probably more just a common symptom of normal games, rather than anything AI].

I'd happily switch back to PP over nero, but that didn't seem to have much traction.

Nero, maybe this is just your game, but you don't really reply in a way that screams "engage with me" so much as "if you vote for me I am going to yell at you until you stop." Saying that you have only come in to defend yourself is not totally fair, but its not made up either.

Mostly I townread kraska and cheet pretty strongly, and I've vacillated on CCC but am coming back around to town on him. I'll bounce to whatever deadline wagon isn't in that group.

Like he votes here, but is super quick to move back to Penguin. It also weird how Nero exists in an isolated state as far as conclusions go for Backhand. Every other wagon that Back hand was on, or was supportive of was on a player that he considered to be objectively bad at playing mafia. He never voiced that same sentiments for Accountant/Nero.

[Grendel]

Wait what happened with MCM and kraska? is MCM fruit vendor? Kraska recieved amne cops results??

What did you do last night?

VOTE: NTRP

Answer it please.

i thought this was coming from a suspicious visit result

That's... Yeah, I should have noticed that.

[Grendel]

Hello! This thread escalated quickly.

MCM, why make a big post on CCC and not change your vote?

I actually had a scum read on Backhand before he ever posted in the game because I distinctly remember him being online the day that the game was lunched for at least four hours (that was the same amount of time I was online that night). He never showed up to the thread proper to post anything, and was not posting anywhere else on site. I even checked later. The 3rd of June was when this game started, Backhand has no posts in the other two games that were having game over discussion on the 3rd, but does have posts on the 2nd, and 4th. Backhands first post in this game was the 4th. Ei, Backhand was probably hiding out in the scum PT the day the game started.

This was the ethically gray thing I wasn't gonna mention. I decided I might as well if it lynches scum tomarrow.

Ugh, this sucks as a reason to get lynched for either alignment! Other interpretation, I was busy on a Saturday.

On 1905 to 1915, 1905 was my first forum game in a long time and I was less inclined to take strong positions like *players who are known to be fucking useless and skate on it* is unacceptable. I felt at the time that people were trying to get easy towncred by defending not Mafia, so I took a stronger position than I totally believe in, to see what happened.

That’s why I wasn’t going to bring it up. You could have been on, but afk, or browsing other web pages, or whatever. But it can’t be validated, alI I know is that you were on and never said anything. Just a simple “Hi” in the thread proper would have worked.
---
Except a lot of your pushes looked less like specifically scum reading players, and more like, “This player is playing badly guys lets lynch him.” Like what were you expecting them to flip scum or were your fear voting b/c you saw scum get away with it before? Why?

You had a reason to justify your actions based of a previous game. But having a reason doesn't mean that your have pure motives while doing it.

[Grendel]

Why is 1917 so important?

october revolution

wrt the rolestopper that's actually a good point but then why would scum no-kill n1 as if they were building up towncred for their role but then not actually use it in a town way in future days while they know their claim will be under scrutiny?

Do you think there is a team out of {Backhand, Not_mafia, Hiraki} that would have been negligent enough to forget to send a night kill?

Would Nero have been on top of that stuff if his teammates weren't?

(I know its a little silly, but u never kno)

[Grendel]

I'll look at Hiraki tomorrow night.

I don't think I'll be able to get to reinforcing my town reads.

[Grendel]

It's okay giga I've been shit this whole game.

While I was signing up to play with CCC, there were quite a few players that I was looking forward to reading/watching this game.

I don't want to make you feel bad or guilty or anything, but you were actually one of the players I was looking forward to playing with the most.

Here's hoping you'll make a comeback later this game.

[Grendel]

Why is 1917 so important?

october revolution

wrt the rolestopper that's actually a good point but then why would scum no-kill n1 as if they were building up towncred for their role but then not actually use it in a town way in future days while they know their claim will be under scrutiny?

Do you think there is a team out of {Backhand, Not_mafia, Hiraki} that would have been negligent enough to forget to send a night kill?

Would Nero have been on top of that stuff if his teammates weren't?

(I know its a little silly, but u never kno)

No, I really don't see any combo of three forgetting to submit a nk?? lmao

thats kind of tough to do - occam says dont consider it

I know that your are objectively correct. I just had a real strong feeling last night/this morning that rolestopper makes a lot of since for the scum team.

[Grendel]

like grendel's defeatist attitude is sitting well with me here and is exactly how i would expect him specifically as town to feel here

ccc doesnt make sense with the gamestate as scum.

Giga, I should have told you sooner.

But I

really really really

did not like you characterzing me as a defeatist.

I'm vocally self aware as a player, and I did predict my own lynch happening once D2 unfolded. But I never voiced any sentiments that I thought town was losing. I very much believe town will win. Outside of me complaining about the awful state of affairs D1 I been very positive about things. Even regarding my own lynch. Like describing me as a defeatist paints a much more negative picture of my actions then what they actually are.

That really rubbed me the wrong way, but I didn't realize that was what I wanted to articulate until today.

[Grendel]

like grendel's defeatist attitude is sitting well with me here and is exactly how i would expect him specifically as town to feel here

ccc doesnt make sense with the gamestate as scum.

Giga, I should have told you sooner.

But I

really really really

did not like you characterzing me as a defeatist.

I'm vocally self aware as a player, and I did predict my own lynch happening once D2 unfolded. But I never voiced any sentiments that I thought town was losing. I very much believe town will win. Outside of me complaining about the awful state of affairs D1 I been very positive about things. Even regarding my own lynch. Like describing me as a defeatist paints a much more negative picture of my actions then what they actually are.

That really rubbed me the wrong way, but I didn't realize that was what I wanted to articulate until today.

By sooner I mean while you were still on to give a response

[Grendel]

Defeatist to me is a player that is screaming "woe is me" "Woe is us" "Woe is We" as loud as they can and not doing anything of actual content or meaning.

Yes, at this point I think my lynch is good for the game state, but I've not been uselessly crying about it...

Pre-edit

I'll admit that makes sense

[Grendel]

I'll get caught up tonight but Idk if I'll have time for anything else.

Hiraki lynch is fine with me.

[Grendel]

I could case Hiraki,
my biggest hesitation is that if Grendel is scum I will feel dumb for ignoring kraska's like 100% confidence on him being scum.

I'm having second thoughts tbh....

Okay, if

you

are having second thoughts then I'm going right off the Grendel vote.

UNVOTE: Grendel

This moves my top choice for Mafia to NotTheRealPaul/Hiraki. Of the two, NotPaul has actually been a good deal more suspicious today. His reads are... easily faked, and (as has been pointed out) his results imply that the Rolestopper has been playing in a distinctly un-Townish manner - it seems the simplest explanation for that is that NTRP's reads are faked (and the Rolestopper was on MCM last night after all).

Thus, VOTE: NotTheRealPaul

CCC you didn't roll scum did you?

Like you didn't unvote me because you thought I was town, its just because Kraska wasn't sure anymore... I don't see how you could shrug off all the points, cases, and stuff I did today as scummy as long as Kraska says its so. I don't remember you ever being this dependent on other players to form your own reads.

I think that Not Peul is clearly derp town, and I don't understand your case against him. I mean I can read the connections to made, but I don't understand how you can see that as functional. Not Pual would have had to be spoon fed everything in specific detail, and his buddy would have had to still cross their fingers that NotPaul didn't botch the fake claim.

And that's in a world WHERE Not Paul fake softs pr D1 with the pressure of a single vote.

I’ve been bleeding town Since D2 but Giga doesn’t want to admit and stick to that conclusion because it won’t help their win-con.

Allow me to point to the five-vote wagon on you as evidence in support of the statement that you have not been bleeding Town since D2.

This snip that CCC has made at me while I was under pressure felt oddly smug. And I think he had a few others tucked away in his iso too. Like, ranking CCC's dryness he is on the same level as Dierfire. CCC is pretty professional/orderly about how he presents himself, and he generally didn't make pot shots. At least from what I remember. :/

[Grendel]

idk I could consider CCC over hiraki because CCC's reaction to my wagon faltering was in no way town like.

[Grendel]

I'll look at Hiraki right now. I think I never gave a full case on him.

There is probably bits and pieces in my iso going back to D1.

[Grendel]

Its weird but whenever I'm away from the screen I start getting paranoid that Giga is scum,

but when I come back and I am seeing them post in real time I feel foolish for being suspicious of them.

[Grendel]

Paul check in this pool:
Grendle, ccc, vedith,

got it boss!

Hey, if hiraki does actually flip scum feel free to check me as well else we'll never hear the end of it from vedith.

FTR this looks like a Scum!ninja claim. A player with investigative immunity wants to take advantage of their ability.

VOTE: Backhand

[Grendel]

Yeah, you shouldn't have weighed in on it until all three of us where online.

Like for instance if I, or CCC were scum, we now know that you don't believe you were targeted, and we'd know our need to fake claim that we were visited is 1/2 vs 1/3

I'd go as far as to say that Mutton shouldn't have outted that he didn't visit Backhand/Vedith, and waited for the person to claim naturally.

[Grendel]

DIE BACKSCUM GO BACK TO SCUMVILLE FROM WHENCE YOU CAME
CONGRATS VEDITH YOU GET TO TELL EVERYONE HOW COOL YOU ARE

I was calling Hiraki/Backhand before Vedith did!

Do I get

AGGRESEIVE

praise too?!

[Grendel]

Yeah, you shouldn't have weighed in on it until all three of us where online.

Like for instance if I, or CCC were scum, we now know that you don't believe you were targeted, and we'd know our need to fake claim that we were visited is 1/2 vs 1/3

I'd go as far as to say that Mutton shouldn't have outted that he didn't visit Backhand/Vedith, and waited for the person to claim naturally.

To clarify I think that it would be optimal for both CCC and I to be on at the same time, and for Mutton to dictate who claims first.

[Grendel]

[/unvote][/unvote]

So we are in auto-win then?

So town is {Mutton, Cheetory, Kraska, Backhand, Pauline} that leaves {Me, Giga, CCC, Vedith}

And there is only one scum.

[Grendel]

I looked back at Raya(Hiraki)+DeathRowCat's(Gigabyte) brief early game interactions b/c I remembered Raya subbing out directly after DeathCat poked them. Pointing to a T/S interaction.

In truth Raya's sub out was delayed, and probably unrelated to DeathRow, so I guess that isn't great evidence.

I should go back and resort Giga/CCC/Vedith but ugh... I was so sure that Backhand lynch was gg I'll be back later.

[Grendel]

@CCC

If you are town you need to come in here and talk to us.

[Grendel]

When was Not-Mafia's wagon all conftown?
---
I think at this point the game can mechanically solve itself, and I'm unsure what I can bring to the table currently.