Mini Normal 1917: :X Mafia (Game over!)

[Cheetory6]

Isn't Nero supposed to be a collaborative player?

Would not be a word I would use to describe him.

[Cheetory6]

Nero, if you're town, can you please get more into this game?

[Cheetory6]

It's because I'm so dumb and you're so smart Hiraki thank you for how smart you are.

[Cheetory6]

Is it really an insult and not just the truth if when I ask you to elaborate on your strongest scumread, your response is to laugh at me for bothering to?

[Cheetory6]

Pardon me while I go back to not giving a shit about this game.
Good luck with your pet Slingshot wagon.

[Cheetory6]

Oh okay.

[Cheetory6]

That's a pretty good read.

[Cheetory6]

drk was town.

[Cheetory6]

Nero/me connection is pretty reasonable with how much I've flimflammed on him.

[Cheetory6]

I feel like a big part of your disengagement from the game is probably my fault from how much of a sack of lurk I've been since D1.
I'm in kind of a mafia-rut atm and have been pretty busy this last little while.
I'm back from Kingston so I'm hoping to make some time to not be useless in this game again.
We can bounce some thoughts and maybe both gear back up to make some shit happen here?

[Cheetory6]

This is probably already in the thread somewhere, but I need specific things to pick at, and just saying blanket statements about how I feel about certain slots isn't really going to do much.

@GT, @kraska, @Mutton

,
Can you articulate to me why you think Nero is scum in 1-3 condensed and specific points for me/in general? If you've already done something along these lines just point me at them.
Bonus points for super condensed and if there are behaviors being referenced some kind of link to examples of said behaviors.

[Cheetory6]

I don't know yet.

How long is it going to take you to get into the game and have specific reads?
IE: what do you need to get there? Back-and-forths? Time to go read things?

You should spend some more time expanding on why you're scumreading Paul.

cheet hasn't been overly active, and hasn't been all that helpful in gamesolving ya feel

If you're getting really paranoid about me, I would suggest rereading the end of D1 again. It was a level of energy that I don't really think I could get myself into as scum.

i) his questions have little follow-up or bite to them - this is scummy because it means it's all just for show
ii) he backs out of his reads easily which means he's more interested in what town wants to do than actually lynching scum
iii) most of his questions are leading or misreppy and dont really have any utility in scumhunting. he's just throwing pointless shade which gives me the impression he's faking scumreads and not genuinely trying to put the pieces together

i) Lack of follow-ups to questions isn't a good scumtell and there are other reasons that could apply besides just asking questions for the sake of looking like you're asking questions. I would need examples where you feel like he doesn't have bite where you feel like townNero would otherwise.

ii) I feel like dropping reads is easier for town to do than scum? Do you have experience with the opposite? Because I feel like as scum, I generally just hold onto my reads because I'm scared that switching easily is something that I won't be able to do convincingly vs just doubling down on what reads I do have.

iii) Nero throws a lot of shade as town. I also think it makes sense for someone uninvested who isn't as overly concerned with how he appears to push angles that aren't thought through.

cheet my man
what do you ypurself think of Nero can?

There was a point while I was in Kingston that I was pretty close to voting him entirely based on the level of personality driving the case on him, but I realized that I was being stupid.
Every time I've read his ISO I've come out of it feeling like this is probably uninvested townNero. A lot of the points being used for him being scummy just kind of strike me as things he would do possibly even moreso as town? I'm open to the idea of being wrong, but I'm not seeing anything that I find overly compelling for why this is scumNero vs townNero other than that maybe it seems like he doesn't have much interest in trying to figure anything out right now. He could just be town that just doesn't give a fuck about the game, and honestly I vibe with that. There hasn't been a clear scum option to me at any point this game and I've been super demotivated from that. I can buy him feeling similarly, especially since it's not just me who's struggling to keep their head in the game.

[Cheetory6]

NTRP is probably scum here. But I'll think about it.

[Cheetory6]

Okay neat, what will it take for you to have actual reads here?
You're making a lot of posts but not really doing anything, is this just a today thing? Or a tomorrow thing?
Can I expect you to be pushing something shortly?
Are you planning on reading things and getting caught up soon?

P-Edit: Is that at me or Vedith?

[Cheetory6]

I'm not trying to imply you aren't trying at all, but to me there isn't much focus/direction to what you're trying to do.
There isn't much indication that you've read all that much of the game.
And there isn't any indication that you have any kind of reads.

The question isn't "why haven't you done anything"
the question is "when will you start doing things".

[Cheetory6]

Take what time you need.

[Cheetory6]

vote: Vedith

Is probably where my head is at.
If we do lynch Nero, he flips town and I die tonight, Vedith doesn't make it to endgame please and thanks.

[Cheetory6]

Shockingly, it turns out that Mutton is town.

[Cheetory6]

I am indeed.

[Cheetory6]

I mean, Mutton has said he was 1-shot loyal.
Doesn't mean anything at this point unless he underclaimed.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Vedith
Vedith/CCC?

[Cheetory6]

triple C, as annoyingly bad as N_M is we aren't lynching a claimed PR.

Oh.

P-Edit: I was feeling Hiraki/Vedith as partners yesterday pretty hard, but Nero being scum makes me feel less sure about Hiraki being scum?

[Cheetory6]

Also, Grendel's AtE felt townish to me.
But hey apparently I can't read people in non-large games for shit. :')

[Cheetory6]

Lol.

[Cheetory6]

I had a plan that didn't happen cause of cheet claiming but

I suck.

Backhand can be townpile for now.

[Cheetory6]

That's pretty reasonable.
UNVOTE:
Looking forward to you definitely actually delivering on this promise you have made!

[Cheetory6]

I think I understand what your gambit would have been Mutton.
:/

Shitty.

[Cheetory6]

Can't wait.

[Cheetory6]

Oh okay then.

[Cheetory6]

Ty Vedith.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Vedith

[Cheetory6]

I'm not sure I understand what the point of the full readlist was if you're so absolutely sure that Backhand/Hiraki are the scumteam?

[Cheetory6]

UNVOTE: vedith

[Cheetory6]

Alright everyone, by order of the Confirmed Town please take your vote and place it on yourself.

[Cheetory6]

Missed that post sorry! (You have a lot of them and I'm frankly finding it difficult not to skim them when there's so many dense ones in a row yo.)
I just didn't really feel like scumHiraki relentlessly defends Nero on the bare premise of "I don't see any case on him".
I do honestly feel like my reads are objectively kind of terrible right now though so, take how I'm feeling with a grain of salt.

[Cheetory6]

If there's a doctor that's probably worth the counter claim.

[Cheetory6]

Can someone explain at my face why CCC is town?
I'm really not seeing it.

[Cheetory6]

I'd trade doctor for confirmed scum at this point.
Especially since if Vedith is scum he's probably not getting lynched today now without a CC.

[Cheetory6]

Or doctor dies tonight with whoever they have cleared still unknown? I really feel like it shouldn't be that hard to piece together things like this at this point.
If they have information to bring forward they should, a guilty and an innocent result is like the equivalent of a cop claiming with a guilty and an innocent and if there's any other PRs that can narrow down things (ie: roleblocker or tracker, etc) then having one less scumslot in the game makes PoE even easier.

Even if there's more potential utility from the role, having the possibility of that information being lost for good isn't really worth the what.. 1 in 9 chance of doctor saving someone again? Scum have way better odds of shooting a potential doctor tonight.

[Cheetory6]

I'm also really hoping that either vedith gets outright CCed or kraska is just right that vedith is town,
because there's also the scary possibility of vedith being a scum backup.
:/

[Cheetory6]

I don't think I was townread on D1?

[Cheetory6]

If there's a mod that's going to be weird shit into a normal game, it's implosion.
IE: I would not be shocked at all if Vedith or Hiraki are scum and are claiming their actual roles here.

[Cheetory6]

Oh I'm not saying it's bad.
Just saying that Implosion is one of those mods who is likely going to push the boundaries of what someone is going to expect from a mafia setup though, even in a normal game.

[Cheetory6]

Since when does town power become so pessimistic that they'll hang?

A backup motion detector?
You really think that's a deterrence to a lynch?

[Cheetory6]

Grendel/Hiraki distancing?
Hiraki being this demotivated by Neroflip doesn't seem real and something about Grendel's push reads forced to me.

[Cheetory6]

Can you walk through what happened in the neighborhood and what was going through your head when PP was getting lynched?

[Cheetory6]

Grendel/Hiraki distancing?

[Cheetory6]

Competing wagonsssss
VOTE: Hiraki

[Cheetory6]

Meh.

Intent.

[Cheetory6]

Why vote Backhand over Hiraki when Hiraki is the counterwagon?

[Cheetory6]

N2: Watched MCM and saw motion

Jesus dude.
:/

[Cheetory6]

I dont see who made motion on what so pretty much I can only check BT claims and make sure they are in fact VT :/

You recognize this and yet you still targeted a non-VT claim?

[Cheetory6]

Would be both kraska.

[Cheetory6]

I mean, take the time you want.
I'm not in a rush.

[Cheetory6]

It's okay, at best we would maybe have gotten a guilty on someone, but it would be kind of unlikely and only a soft-guilty.
You're also being really town, so, at least you've got that going for you.

[Cheetory6]

scum arent going to get a backup of a role they can't inherit in my opinion

what?

[Cheetory6]

I have a sick idea
what if
we lynch Hiraki

[Cheetory6]

It's okay giga I've been shit this whole game.

[Cheetory6]

I could case Hiraki,
my biggest hesitation is that if Grendel is scum I will feel dumb for ignoring kraska's like 100% confidence on him being scum.

[Cheetory6]

Was fun enough doing that with Nero yesterday,
not sure I want to go through another round of it today.

[Cheetory6]

While I was signing up to play with CCC, there were quite a few players that I was looking forward to reading/watching this game.

I don't want to make you feel bad or guilty or anything, but you were actually one of the players I was looking forward to playing with the most.

Here's hoping you'll make a comeback later this game.

I don't know what I did to earn your interest in me but sorry for semi-letting you down.

This is making me seriously consider moving my vote to NTRP instead of Grendel.

Just gonna reiterate this to everyone else

How the fuck is this thought process town.

I could case Hiraki,
my biggest hesitation is that if Grendel is scum I will feel dumb for ignoring kraska's like 100% confidence on him being scum.

Especially considering that the last person Kraska was 100% confident on was Nero. Honestly, right now, Kraska's confidence is the single biggest strike against Grendel that exists.

I'm having second thoughts tbh....

Does this completely torpedo your reasons for voting Grendel then?
What's your read on Hiraki?

Pairing of the day can be CCC/Hiraki.
HBD Grendel I guess I'm trying again for today.

Hiraki case incoming.

Grendel Thoughts:

I don't believe Grendel tries to make me feel bad for not having my head in the game as scum here. That disappointment is just really genuine sounding and it doesn't really make sense for scum to be frustrated with someone for not playing their best? Like, I could see it, but it seems more likely to be town. Would take a special kind of player to voice that as scum here.
There's also the effort he's putting in while grappling with the idea that he's the best vote in the game.
IDK.
This isn't the most articulate towncase in the world but just, if we are going to lynch someone like Grendel we should have better reasons for it.
I don't even remember the reasons for why people are voting for him, that's how weak they are.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: CCC

[Cheetory6]

I'm ISOdiving you.

CCC just isn't town.
There's nothing about the way he's pushing Paul there that's an actual genuine feeling thought.

Frankly think you're both just scum right now.

[Cheetory6]

Like, that reasoning of "kraska is scumreading Grendel is the reason to vote Grendel" and then subsequent unvote and swap off when kraska says she's unsure is so slimy.

[Cheetory6]

Why not?
Do you think that I think you're incapable of treating your scummates differently?

[Cheetory6]

How hard do you think you've been pushing CCC?
Like.
He's gotten two votes on a wagon on him all game. If you think that comes across as effective hardcore dangerous bussing to me, then I don't know what to tell you?
If he's not your buddy then vote him with me since you've apparently been scumreading him all game and the only other wagon that's going to happen here is you.

[Cheetory6]

There's also that I've been calling you scum for ages with various other people and this is the first time you've beetlejuiced in to respond.

[Cheetory6]

yeah because something new happened - don't see you talking about the same thing with MCM

Lol.

it's not even that true either, i was talking on pg 92 - i just didn't say anything on 93 because it's a bunch of grendel talking about what he's going to do

I'm saying you're beetlejuicing your response to me the moment I mention you/CCC.
I was saying you/Grendel for at least a little while now and not a peep.

Why are you even voting for Grendel right now?
What're the reasons?
Why haven't you voted for CCC your scumread yet?

[Cheetory6]

Either he really is a town PR, or Scum used their first-48-hour scumtalk to carefully prepare fake claims.

Let's play your game CCC.
If there's a rolestopper in play, scum has no idea who rolestopper targetted unless slingshot was a vig kill which it's looking like he wasn't.
IE: Rolestopper could have targetted Mutton last night and Paul's scumteam would have no idea.
How exactly is it safe to fakeclaim that?

If Paul's scumteam carefully concocted a fakeclaim, saying that they did absolutely useless shit the first two nights doesn't exactly give his claim any credibility whatsoever.

P-Edit: There's also that he's been a demotivated sack ever since the Nero lynch and the hard defense of Nero could have been doubling down on a buddy read where backing off would have looked scummy.

[Cheetory6]

You could in fact vote for him then.

[Cheetory6]

why would i argue against someone that I SR?

Oh so someone like CCC?

[Cheetory6]

Why is every other slot town Hiraki?
Why is Hiraki the only slot you're nullreading?

[Cheetory6]

Why is Grendel* zzzzzzzzzz

[Cheetory6]

You're implying that you're townreading the rest of the playerlist so he's a PoE read.
Surely you can explain why everyone else isn't scum.

[Cheetory6]

If you give me reads and I think they're real, I'll devote my energy for the rest of today to getting CCC lynched.
If you're town this is me trying to pull you up out of apathy into doing something.
Give me reasons why you feel like people are less likely to be scum than CCC/Grendel.
Preferably like 1-2 points for each.

[Cheetory6]

My thought is that the fakeclaim was constructed last night, before the Rolestopper was known about. The fakeclaim was constructed by Paul's scumbuddy, who is someone more experienced than Paul.

Is he a scum motion detector then?
Is the setup balanced with that in the hands of scum?

[Cheetory6]

Hiraki was going to get lynched before Paul.
Hiraki fakeclaiming backup motion detector before Paul basically death sentences the both of them.

[Cheetory6]

Loyal Friendly Neighbour

The loyal is 2-shot and rolestopper would interfere with the results.

[Cheetory6]

easy way to test if rolestopper is a town role
if I die OR vedith doesn't receive my pm tonight (roleblocker - it would go through otherwise cause not loyal) then the rolestopper is scum and the world is whole

also, if the above happens, we probably need to rope vedith too
I still think he's scum but I'm leaving it for my masons who townread him like fools

You said not to hammer before you did things.
Are you still planning on doing things or no?

[Cheetory6]

I have a hard time reconciling the fact that Grendel would push this weirdly on a buddy by just saying that gigabyte can be scum. Additionally, I have a hard time understanding why scum wouldn't just buss rather than take the time to explain to me what I was missing at the end of D2. The chances of giga flipping town are near zero.

I don't understand this.
You're not acting like you're confident about Grendel being scum, so you saying that your townread on Giga here is dependent on your scumread on Grendel is strange?
The confidence level too.
Like, you're not even saying that you find Giga's play town, you're basing this read entirely on Grendel. You've got a list of players you think could be scum, so I don't understand how you've eliminated the possibility of CCC/Backhand scumteam and you've openly admitted that you think scumVedith is a possibility.
This don't jive at all, especially not with your reasoning of "oh well I guess Grendel is a PoE read".

CCC (only here because I realize that I need to start compromising)

Were you implying that he should be lower or higher on this list?

[Cheetory6]

Hiraki isn't flipping Scum with that claim.

Why

[Cheetory6]

And if he's a scum backup motion detector?

[Cheetory6]

I'm not saying it's a fakeclaim.
What if he actually is the role Backup Motion Detector as scum and Paul is Motion Detector as town?

[Cheetory6]

If Hiraki is Scum so is NTRP.

Lol.
No.

I don't even understand what your gripe is with the idea of scum having a backup of a town role to let them have an idea about what's in the setup.
Normal games are going to give town more power than scum because that's the way the percentage works.
As an NRG reviewer, I would probably put a stamp of approval on a game with

Town:

2-Shot Loyal Friendly Neighbor, Rolestopper, Backup Rolestopper, Motion Detector

Scum:

Backup Motion Detector, Goon, Goon

I would probably not sign off on

Town:

2-Shot Loyal Friendly Neighbor, Rolestopper, Backup Rolestopper

Mafia:

3 Goons

If your connection between Hiraki/Paul is greater than their claims you should say so and explain, because it more reads like you just don't really understand how normal games are typically balanced.

[Cheetory6]

The idea is that it gives them information on the setup and something to claim.
There's nothing that says that scum can't have backup of a town role and just not inherit it, and without a motion detector in the game I don't think this is balanced.
Stop being an elitist.
If I'm wrong explain why instead of being an asshole for no reason.

[Cheetory6]

hey cheet wanna kill vedith or nah
not that it matters but day 3 isn't late game either brah

Probably just stubborn town tbh.

[Cheetory6]

Honestly Hiraki pretty much scumclaimed with that last readlist.

[Cheetory6]

@Implosion

: Can scum have a backup of a town role?

[Cheetory6]

hot take
it's hiraki/ccc/Nero cain

ilu right now

[Cheetory6]

I voted CCC you good yo.

[Cheetory6]

The moment is at hand.
Hammering before I go to bed unless I hear someone tell me not to who isn't Hiraki.

[Cheetory6]

I don't.

[Cheetory6]

If Hiraki is town then I'll be Captain-Does-Whatever-The-Fuck-Everyone-Else-Wants-Him-To-Do for the rest of the game.

[Cheetory6]

It's all I've been able to think about.

[Cheetory6]

I've been wasting away Hiraki,
my whole life,
my career is in shambles,
my wife left me,
all because I can't get the thought of lynching you out of my head.

[Cheetory6]

Technically no.
Practically yes.

[Cheetory6]

Do you have anything on why you feel Backhand's most likely scum right now besides PoE?

[Cheetory6]

Haven't caught up yet, or don't want to? Whatcha thinking?

what??????

I think notmafia should participate in the game, since we've gotten one post from the slot the whole game. Not sure why that's confusing.

This is a townslip. Could be fake, but like CCC, I doubt it.

How is it a townslip?

This game explicitly does not have daytalk.

Ah, shit. I misread, mafia did have daytalk for 48 hours. So, take that one back.

I don't townread you particularly strongly, but also I don't think that matters--why do you think that? Mostly I've been commenting on what I missed last night, the only thing you've said at me recently was that you didn't like my policy lynch suggestion, and I spoke to that. What else is on your mind?

Last quote is at Accountant and looks like really uncomfortable distancing.
Daytalk "townslip" thing looks pretty wonky.
Accountant strikes me as a busser.
Hiraki/Backhand interaction at start also reads as a little uncomfortable.
Everyone else does have a reason to probably be town.

I guess we have lynches to burn at this point, so sure.
Forget I asked Giga.
VOTE: Backhand

[Cheetory6]

DIE BACKSCUM GO BACK TO SCUMVILLE FROM WHENCE YOU CAME
CONGRATS VEDITH YOU GET TO TELL EVERYONE HOW COOL YOU ARE

[Cheetory6]

Rough.

[Cheetory6]

CCC who didn't act last night eh?

[Cheetory6]

I think you want to try gigabyte next?

[Cheetory6]

Do I get AGGRESEIVE praise too?!

NEXT TIME HIT PEOPLE IN THE FACE WITH YOUR READS SO HARD THAT THEY WANT TO GIVE YOU A BIT OF CREDIT WHILE ALSO MAKING LIGHT OF THE WAY YOU WERE DOING IT

[Cheetory6]

Nope. Keep patting your collective backs, though.

Who is scum?

[Cheetory6]

Why is Paul on the table and not Vedith?
Give me a walk-through of your interactions/thoughts about Hiraki/Neroslot this game.

[Cheetory6]

Give me a walk-through of your interactions/thoughts about Hiraki/Neroslot this game.

Pls and ty.

[Cheetory6]

UNVOTE:

[Cheetory6]

Or CCC not killing?

[Cheetory6]

Tbh I think CCC might just not have done anything out of fear of motion detector.

[Cheetory6]

Mutton didn't include Backhand in his list of potential targets.
Would have been at least a little risky for him to claim it in spite of that.

I think giga is honestly more likely scum than you at this point Vedith.

In the meantime
VOTE: CCC
I guess!

[Cheetory6]

CCC's Vedith vote is pretty garbo.
But at the same time I don't really know what vote wouldn't seem garbo at this point.

[Cheetory6]

Game over or no?

[Cheetory6]

Lol.
Sorry for underplaying @Grendel
I am a little burnt out right now but I definitely hammed it up a little bit with my role.

Thanks for hosting Imp.
Curious what the actions were.

[Cheetory6]

Also I'm assuming scum shot Mutton N1.
Game could have gone really different places if I hadn't protected there.

[Cheetory6]

10/10 would lynch again. Get carried. #420noscope.

[Cheetory6]

I didn't think odds were very high that scum would try and shoot MCM again.
Most scumteams would shoot for the protective role.