Newbie 1812: Hockey - Game Over

[ARBITRIO]

Second time's a charm, that's how it goes right?

VOTE: theslimer3

Ahoy there everyone. Arb ~
Did you roll scum this time?

Nah wbu?

[ARBITRIO]

I like that answer. You get a townie badge

That's nice but you didn't answer my question. >:|

[ARBITRIO]

Excellent you can join my townbloc then.

[ARBITRIO]

What do you mean by this time though? You were town the last time.

UNVOTE: theslimer3

[ARBITRIO]

<.< Nope I got town this time. You'll have to deal with my townie shinnanegins this time

Like this one

Oh my god stop pushing my townbloc you suck.

VOTE: WhemeStar

[ARBITRIO]

It's okay you're only L-2 less than 24 hours in.

[ARBITRIO]

Please don't traumatize me with your scumplay I'm fragile.

[ARBITRIO]

Can you explain said serious vote?

Presumably because of the OMGUS vote. ^_^

[ARBITRIO]

Why would scum try to be on the biggest wagon right now?

[ARBITRIO]

I'm going to hate playing with you.

[ARBITRIO]

I'd have voted you regardless whether there were votes on you or not.

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It just felt realllyyy bad and fake

Yup my vote has forced reasoning I don't believe in. If my vote was completely random nobody would feel compelled to read into it.

So, that was a serious vote on Wheme?

No I'm indifferent about being on a wagon in RvS.

[ARBITRIO]

ARB why force an RVS vote instead of trying to do an actual read-into something to create legitimate pressure?

The same reason you submitted an RvS vote probably. If I tried decrypting tone/motive it would also be forced and I'd be lying to myself.

I think slimer vote is L-1 no more votes please.

[ARBITRIO]

VOTE: wheme

How come?

[ARBITRIO]

Wheme do you really believe scum are likelier to wagon early?

[ARBITRIO]

Oh boy icebreakers. Hello I'm Will and I'm the Mexican gardener probably fucking up your petunias.

Relevant post soon™.

[ARBITRIO]

Wheme is there a reason my vote pinged your radar and not Penguin?

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I'm back to thinking that Wheme was overly defensive about his wagon, and is reaching for a reason to scum read ARB.

What makes you think the former?

I was looking at the VC from the top of the page and opted for someone that hadn't been voted yet,

Does making a new wagon further anything?

[ARBITRIO]

He never really questioned the rationale behind his wagon or defended himself rather attacking the ideas of early wagoning in general. If it had been any other player being put to L-2 I think he might have reacted the same but I wouldn't know for certain.

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I agree he reached for the stars with his serious vote on me but I didn't understand the correlation and I still don't.

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If you guys want the truth I voted him and said serious vote to get questions and content going

You're making it harder to town read you. What do you think of the reactions then?

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VOTE: AcidPhoenix

After studying everyone's ISO's briefly, it's my belief that these posts of substance from this slot could have easily been made as both town, and easily as mafia. It just seems that it might come from a position of knowledge of the alignment.

If phoenix's posts can come from both town and mafia why the vote? Why focus on this slot?

Siv is scum

Is this a repeat of your pressure onto my vote or something new?

[ARBITRIO]

Joseph I'm not IC but for future reference I feel comments are made better in response to posts rather compiled in reads list like that, especially if there's lots of null reads. By doing this your reads are isolated for what you deem important and they're more impromptu/genuine.

[ARBITRIO]

Spartan is not exactly saying that people should have detailed reads on people. He's saying that Wheme should because wheme is utterly convinced now that I'm mafia.

It seems to me that wheme doesn't even have any reason or case for any of his claims, he is just shooting in the dark and hoping we all think he's legitimately scum-hunting ....

friend is here, I'll finish thought later....

I don't like this reaction. You've not inquired or directly engaged Wheme about his push or vote but you're assuming a lot about it.

[ARBITRIO]

This is different, I actually think siv is scum

Spoiler:

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I wouldn't policy lynch a player for anti-town behavior if I can distinguish their play as town. That is a bad lynch to make.

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I expected more of his first push and thought there was town motivation there until he retracted completely. However I do understand the desire to flee RvS. I felt his push wasn't scum opportunism because of the lack of case/justification and it did end up helping discussion a lot.

UNVOTE: WhemeStar

if I didn't already.

[ARBITRIO]

Why do you scumlean phoenix?

[ARBITRIO]

I was ISO'ing each player, and just judging from gut. I was trying to see who seems to comment based on the perspective of not fully knowing the alignment of other player's roles vs comments which seem like they may know 'too well' who the mafia is and not. When I read acidPhoenix's posts, my gut kinda reads it as someone who was just a little 'too sure' of the other players and their intentions. Compared to the other ISO's, acidPhoenix's fitted that the most.

This is a good response and I like the push later in the thread.

[ARBITRIO]

ARB why force an RVS vote instead of trying to do an actual read-into something to create legitimate pressure?

I was essentially being asked why I didn't analyze and push anything on page one here. This seemed like nonsense/filler, a means of discrediting nothing.

[ARBITRIO]

But still, you say you're really sure that I'm scum. I voted you, you asked me if I was scum, and I thought the question was really silly. Did you want me to say no? I decided to instead convey how silly I thought the question was. I found it hilarious, especially because I believe you were serious about it.

This is understandable but not actually a post I found scum orientated. I felt your response to Wheme was much more suspicious because you didn't actually confront the scumread rather strawman his perspective. For example:

he is just shooting in the dark and hoping we all think he's legitimately scum-hunting ....

The entire basis for this claim was Wheme asserting you're scum based off a vote and reaction and jumping to that assumption is usually the route of panic to debunk the pressure.

I mentioned something about stressing the importance of looking at the bigger picture when judging people instead of only focusing on a small incident.

What does this mean? We will probably look at the game at a larger scale and this incident may become miniscule in comparison but right now we're in the single digit pages.

[ARBITRIO]

VOTE: Siv

I thought this was a scummy move since he put him to L-1 without making it apparent, which is conflicting on my previous views of wheme

I'd not say so. I think scum would be mindful of this too. It wouldn't be sufficient enough to bait a hammer like this.

I find this a really scummy thing to say, I dont see how someone who is town would say they "don't really care" about putting someone to L-1, there is no way town can be 100% on someone being mafia especially this early on, only mafia know the alignments of everyone.

I don't really think Wheme has much else to add so I'll pitch in; L-1 is good pressure and putting your scumlean in the spotlight is ideal that is how players become more confident in scumreads. I don't find this indicative.

I don't feel confident in this as an actual scum-read, but I feel like Sivs casual response to being on L-1 followed by a total reversal of position was scummy, see 149 and 159

What am I supposed to be looking at in 149?

I don't think complete 180 read flips are indicative but in 159 I see your point. He takes a post Wheme quoted as scummy then speculated his reaction which although I feel is somewhat fair, it operates under the assumption his own push is weak. I'm not too sure why SIV feels his push is shaky/invalidated off this.

[ARBITRIO]

Spartan how much experience do you have playing forum mafia? How familiar are you with this forum in particular?

[ARBITRIO]

I'll answer that when you do Rob. :>

I'll do a quick point by point commentate on any post I've not responded to.

What do you think of #158 with wheme not being bothered about putting SIV to L-1 even though he was the only one who voted because of a scum read on him.

I'm hoping I covered this already.

I also agree on the surprise slimer had to early reads being a scum read, I dont see how that can be a negative thing for town, and would be a passive goal for mafia to slow the game down, not once but twice did they question need for reads.

I don't personally think this is scum indicative enough, I don't think he's discouraging early reads he just seemed to be slow at establishing his own. It would be helpful if he explained why he was indifferent or engage reads made by others so he can build his own.

Here it felt like an emotional plea as if the next comment was going to be the vote to lynch him, and I dont see what I imagine felt like his lasts words to be something productive (obviously no one wants to get lynched but its much worse for scum to get lynched than town) I would have thought in a townies position it would be better of to push for any last reads that could contribute towards the townies finding someone in the mafia if he was lynched and turned out to be town. In reality if he had been lynched and he is town then his final contribution would have only been that we should look at the bigger picture which doesnt point us anywhere.

I'm in mutual agreement here since SIV made clear the possibility of his lynch. He knew he was at risk so he should prioritize his reads being heard which he is doing right now so that's good.

[ARBITRIO]

we have 6 town and 3 maf

I'm debating whether this is a genuine town-slip or not because mafia should know their numbers. I'd have thought the alignment distribution be straight-forward but it may not be for some newcomers so I asked for experience.

[ARBITRIO]

Arb, who's scum? You've commented a lot, but I'm not seeing where you've taken a stance, and I believe you aren't voting right now.

I'm leaning SIV scum and Wheme town.

[ARBITRIO]

Damn where'd all the votes go on SIV?

VOTE: SIV36

[ARBITRIO]

Votecount 1.05

acidphoenix (2)

PenguinPower , Spartan117 ,

SIV36 (2)

acidphoenix , WhemeStar ,

WhemeStar (2)

theslimer3 , IaShoggoth ,

Not Voting (3)

ARBITRIO , humaneatingmonkey , SIV36 ,

acidphoenix (2)

PenguinPower , Spartan117 ,

SIV36 (3)

acidphoenix , IaShoggoth , WhemeStar , L-2

WhemeStar (1)

theslimer3 ,

Not Voting (3)

ARBITRIO , humaneatingmonkey , SIV36 ,

Day one deadline is Tuesday August 1st, 10 PM PST. (expired on 2017-08-01 22:00:00)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch!

[/size]

Why didn't you like Wheme before?

[ARBITRIO]

Why did I quote that? The mystery continues.

[ARBITRIO]

I will get a page-get someday. I'm catching up.

[ARBITRIO]

Well I was going to post then I dozed off. <:

[ARBITRIO]

Yeah I'm doing a catch-up spam now. :>

[ARBITRIO]

This is something that no one has really commented on, the answer to your question is yes they do, (before you say I know because I am scum, I know this mainly because the the only other time I have ever played a game on here I was scum) It is interesting that you mention it, I gather you have gone back through the posts since the start searching for leads which shows intent for clue finding, and the content of the question could be indicative of an inexperienced townie or scum trying to play the townie who is very new to the game.

Was this game a newbie?

Yeah monkey, we have 6 town and 3 maf right

Do the mafia get to talk before the day started?

This is something that no one has really commented on, the answer to your question is yes they do, (before you say I know because I am scum, I know this mainly because the the only other time I have ever played a game on here I was scum)

So you don't know how many mafia members there are despite the fact that you were in a game once before eh? Well I've gone through your profile and you were indeed scum in a newbie, so the idea of you not knowing that there isn't 2 scum shouldn't slip your mind because the open game you were in was around the same time as it was with the newbie

You had pregame talk with your only partner and now you suddenly think that theres a magic 3rd member?

This is a decent take. I'm puzzled that Rob can retell his experience in the mafia chat but simultaneously doesn't remember the amount of mafia. By itself I can't come to a conclusion I'd have to PbPA his ISO later.

[ARBITRIO]

I asked the questions a. because they let me actually push someone towards actually helping to reveal alignments and b. in some of them I just actually wanted the answers

I'd say the question regarding me, as well as a few others, don't fall under either criterion. They're all just filler questions. Why did you ask this?

ARB why force an RVS vote instead of trying to do an actual read-into something to create legitimate pressure?

I was essentially being asked why I didn't analyze and push anything on page one here. This seemed like nonsense/filler, a means of discrediting nothing.

also UNVOTE:

This was on SIV I believe. Why was this vote removed?

[ARBITRIO]

*facepalm* I have no idea how to read wheme, but I think he might have potential to be mafia as well.

What changed? You spewed him town earlier for his counter-push but you're flipping on him without any reason.

Your reasoning for this is that it's the way you talk. I'll admit as well that what I pointed out could be something people could have done as town. I could be nitpicking. However, comparing the reasoning used for scumhunting by other players in this game, my method is pretty well just as legitimate.

I wouldn't say nitpicky but narrow-minded because there's many opportunities it comes from uncertain town.

Your response to why you shouldn't let your scum-confirmed read go to L-2 or L-1:

A player quickhammering themselves (or a partner coming in and pretending to lol/derphammer) is a tactic used by scum to deny town more information.

Let's keep this in context. You mean to tell me a "mafia" quickhammers themselves, and mafia partners come in and 'bus' their partners (Especially in situations like the one we have now). Is this place retarded or something? Why would they do that to continue their win-con? We only have 2 mafia.

Yup. It's a good strategy believe it or not, but not really realistic in this situation. Nobody should feel they're a locked lynch candidate and willfully hammering a wagon T-8 days deserves attention for the rest of the game.

And I don't believe anyone really has caught the strange order of wheme's posts having to do with his 'bad vote'. Wheme keeps saying his 'bad vote' reflects the vote on arb, but the 'bad vote' in question is significantly before he voted anyone. Ergo, he doesn't seem like he's being completely forth-coming. The way he's explaining the bad vote doesn't match up with what actually transpired.

Well of course there's discrepancies in a push Wheme never had any conviction for in the first place. What's your point?

That's trippy. Then I went back and found way too much of these:

You're creating all these scenarios where Wheme flips scum but why is Wheme actually scum? Why isn't your vote on him?

[ARBITRIO]

I don't believe that one should rely on meta alone, and Wheme appears overtly scummy, but I modded a scum!Wheme, and he played completely different than this. Granted, he didn't participate in the RVS/early day, but

he actually made a concerted effort to give reads and reasons

.

The underlined is the only reason you've dismissed your dislike? You put thought into Wheme's pushes earlier considering motive, nothing of the sorts here except he's given reads.

Oh wow. SIV you're impossibly scummy.

With what I've read sure but in this context he voted a player he expressed suspicions on earlier so what am I missing here?

20th. Another partnership I've been seeing is Penguin-Spartan but I don't know how productive it is for scum to -actually buddy up- since the usual set up is them distancing for each other. This is clouded in a cloud of cloudy WIFOM.

What was strange about it? They just exchanged on a read.

Actually never-mind I just read Spartan's IIOA read on Penguin which is strange but I'd still like a reason. :^)

You're... a townread now. That was so idiotically town thing to say.

Uhm. I think this was in regards to Spartan; I don't understand the progression here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[ARBITRIO]

Oh so it was an entirely different game you randed scum?

j u s t k i d d i n g then. I probably missed that post sorry.

[ARBITRIO]

Humaneatingquestion #3 - This is in regard to SIV. He commented something goofy with regard to the votecount. I just thought a scum would try to form much more convincing arguments than "hmm the mod posted a gif of celebration when spartan became L-1". Which is seriously goofy-towny. However, I'm not too sold on my assessment there. Wheme's strategy when he explained it offered more promise than me townreading somene over a goofy statement

Confused but okay.

Arbitrio that stuff was on page 10. Stuff I really didn't want to revisit.

...meh.

Then respond to the stuff relevant to Wheme because it's reoccurred a lot recently.

Go! Go! Anti-scumhunter!

That comment from wheme about phoenix was one out of 8. When a duck quacks 8 times, I'm gonna start thinking it's a duck.

._.

[ARBITRIO]

Wheme you think Spartan is scum and hammered SIV anyway?! :/

Bah I was about to post, but that's my fault not the hammer sorry team.

[ARBITRIO]

Ugh I still think Wheme is town but that hammer is kind of frustrating.

[ARBITRIO]

We kind of needed SIV lynched because half the town including myself was convinced SIV was scum so I don't fault Wheme for hammering. There could have been more commitment to CFD Rob/Spartan on his part but I don't think his hammer was scummy.

Wheme can be scum too even if SIV flips scum. This hammer changes everything. Be cautious and paranoid of everyone, town.

What do you think now that SIV flipped town?

What's the arguments against Rob? I missed a lot. <:

[ARBITRIO]

The way you worded that is like you know I'm town LOL

...no?

phoenix said where are your reads basically.

[ARBITRIO]

Why is Wheme's hammer scummy?

[ARBITRIO]

why question the hammer when it wasn't brought up?

I brought it up earlier by responding to a quote and Aaron didn't answer the first time. He stated Wheme is scum regardless solely because of the hammer so it's the only relevant thing accompanying the vote.

[ARBITRIO]

phoenix while we're talking about it what do you think about the hammer?

[ARBITRIO]

Wheme is still town. I'm leaning you town. I was leaning Aaron and Jimmy scum I need to see contribution from the latter slot though.

[ARBITRIO]

@Penguin: this post.

humaneatingmonkey wrote:
Wheme can be scum too even if SIV flips scum. This hammer changes everything. Be cautious and paranoid of everyone, town.


What do you think now that SIV flipped town?

Wheme is tonal town for his straight-to-the-point posting, I like how his standpoints are pushed to allow for a reaction afterwards it demonstrates looking for read development and his transition in opinion afterwards seems to reflect this. He doesn't cherry-coat his pushes for town-cred either.
phoenix is a more recent town lean, despite the apathy I grew to like his response to arguments overnight and I like his tier list reads applying global pressure. I feel a lot of his spew is impromptu (from his questioning although trivial to his recent pushes) which is what I look for in town.

I'd rather wait to engage Aaron before spilling the full content of my read. Jimmy's comments while he was around felt snarky and throwaway as if he was searching to doubt-cast rather than actually scum-hunt. I can't push his replacement for this though so I'll see what the slot does.

[ARBITRIO]

Penguin I agree that Wheme is town but your analysis on his slot is basically "he's playing to his meta" and "NAI." Why are you reading him town?

[ARBITRIO]

i will produce content, sorry. Am always a bit slow to replace in especially to multiple games but once I do i will have activity up.

What did you think of acid when you talked to him?

[ARBITRIO]

I felt Aaron's shift described in 471 #3 wasn't genuine. It followed an aggressive tunnel and the opinion flop feels really out of place on a read that was supposedly strong at first. I also realized that he'd been posturing a Wheme lynch afterwards by creating a TvS or SvS scenario, examples being in 516 and 657. It looked opportunistic in nature and an attempt to chain mislynches.

TL:DR: his inconsistency on his SIV read and EoD posturing both bait and actual on Wheme makes me think he's scum.

Aaron whenever possible explain why you felt the scenario to be TvS at first (and why Wheme must be scum now) that would be appreciated.

[ARBITRIO]

actually trying to read even if the reasons were dumb

I don't think this is worth a "villagery vibe" should be pretty self-explanatory why.

[ARBITRIO]

Why do you have a townread on (HEM) Aaron?

Acid I'm not too sure where you get genuine from.

[ARBITRIO]

Well Wheme hasn't really explained a thought coherently this game so why is this a turning point?

[ARBITRIO]

I guess that's the best I'll get phoenix. I'm not really doubting your read rather I'm trying to test my own read which contrasts with yours.

Aaron reply to a post I made earlier? thx.

[ARBITRIO]

Hey this is a very placeholder-like post. This is not anyway substantive like I hope all my posts can be. It's just that I've been having a very very busy week.

It's not WhemeStar pushing an early narrative about a "reaction test" and that everyone voting him was scum. It's WhemeStar not following up on that but giving a vague reason why we should vote Spartan instead. Vague reason, yes. Has he explained what about Spartan's meta was suspect? Nah. WhemeStar's anti-town bullshit arguments covered in thin fake "obvtown" frosting is why I'm lynching him. There's nothing genuine about WhemeStar's process for me.

And that's all for now. I'll do more promise.

Wheme can be scum too even if SIV flips scum. This hammer changes everything. Be cautious and paranoid of everyone, town.

There's nothing clear that's "fake obvtown frosting." What does this even mean? The entire first post can be summed up as "he's being anti-town.

This looks really opportunistic. Aaron was huge force pushing SIV so creating a narrative where there's one scum within {SIV, Wheme} because of one's push on the other is sketchy. He begins piling all these anti-town arguments after SIV is hammered. This looks like chaining mislynches I feel he's forcing way too much on a TvS scenario.

[ARBITRIO]

VOTE: acidphoenix

Meh, this needs rope. Has contributed almost nothing besides a caseless tunnel on me. Arb is at least trying to provide content - inno is just completely prodging. Given acid's weak reasoning for backing off inno, I could see the team being there.

Follow me for great victory.

So if neither inno/acid are providing content why are you voting acid?

I've seen fragments of acid's read scattered in his ISO. A lot is tonal stuff but it's not illegitimate. Why don't you read his ISO for yourself?

[ARBITRIO]

I'm Will. ^_^

[ARBITRIO]

OH MY GOD I GOT A PAGEGET I WOULD LIKE TO THANK MY MOM

[ARBITRIO]

But I don't know why you think it's opportunistic to think that Wheme is scum. Everybody townreads him. I don't remember being a "huge force" pushing to lynch SIV. (If I was, I forgot the feeling because work made me disatach to this game.) But I really do think SIV was scum before flip.

A townread by itself doesn't mean enough if the player is naturally anti-town and mislynch baity.

To be honest, what I would have done as scum is not set-up "if-then" lynches with a town-consensus-ed "obvtown" (WhemeStar) but instead join WhemeStar (in this scenario, town) into mislynching more people and then set him up for failure D3 or D4. I think scum does best when mimicking the obvtowns because they'll be inseparable with them.

This might apply in a scenario where Wheme is god tier at reading and is sheepable. If Wheme is chained for a mislynch I'd consider that setting him up for failure, through past lynches condemning him.

Above all else though the thoughts are more reassuring than the "anti-town" splurge earlier but you acknowledged the hammer vote which contradicts distancing from a wagon he formed. Why would mafia want to back out of the mess they made though? They're arguably just as pinned for the mislynch they're pushing regardless whether or not they hop off last-minute because the damage is dealt already.

[ARBITRIO]

Are you kidding me? Are you reading?

Yeah I'm reading. There is a coherent read from phoenix from his responses regarding your posts and his scumread spew, while rather hard to read, still eligible.

I'm scumleaning Purple too for reactive play instead of proactive. Town should be making a more conscious effort to make scum/town reads instead of waiting for reads to revolve around them.

[ARBITRIO]

inno is your vote on phoenix because of the read you provided earlier? I don't see the confidence shift you're talking about, except for phoenix's transition out of RvS.

[ARBITRIO]

Sorry autocorrect. :[

[ARBITRIO]

Didn't acid quote post numbers with her thoughts or something?

[ARBITRIO]

Wheme do you have any other reads aside from Rob/Spartan? I'm reading him town although he is one of my weaker reads.

[ARBITRIO]

Oh whoops I don't have my vote on anyone. I don't want to lynch phoenix though.

[ARBITRIO]

I want people to respond with their thoughts on my post regarding Aaron because I'm still strong scum reading him.

I'd be fine with inno & Penguin as alternates.

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey