Mini 567 - iPick - Game Over: The Stunning Conclusion

[Lawrencelot]

Bolded is mine

On a scale of 1-10, how bastardly do you want the game to be (10 = evil)?

I want it to be as evil as possible, but it should still be balanced, so let's say 8.

On a scale of 1-10, how complex/unbalanced are you comfortable with roles being (10=lol)?

Same as above, it shouldn't be unbalanced, but the complexer the better, so 8.

Rank these themes, in order from best to worst:

Things that don’t make sense
Historical Disfigurements
Pokemon, Digimon, & Harry Potter
Existentialism
Literary Characters
Authority Figures

I promise nothing, theme-wise. I might be asking about these themes solely for my enjoyment .

Any other themes you might want to see come into play?

Dreams

Any specific roles/types of roles you want to see in play?

Death millers are cool, but I'm sure you're more creative. Very complex roles are good, as long as the game is a bit balanced.

Any game mechanics?

Don't mind.

Want lots of flavor?

Yes

None?

No.

I may completely ignore this, but any public expectations you have for this game, make them known here, and I'll ignore them, or if you are lucky, take them into account .

[Lawrencelot]

I gotta say, I don't trust Adel's private question answers. She put a 1 for the alignment question but couldn't she very easily PM a real set of private answers, maybe putting 10 for that? Seems like an early attempt to gain the future town's trust. Same goes for her putting 9 for being comfortable ith a post restriction, couldn't that be a prospective mafia's excuse to lurk?

FOS

You actually read everybody's answers?

[Lawrencelot]

Yeah let's lynch Guardian. Some people tried to lynch me as a mod too, now I can get my revenge

Vote: Guardian

[Lawrencelot]

I'd say we vote someone who wanted an unbalanced role, so we can hope for a more balanced game. Those who answered 10 for an unbalanced role are:
-vollkan
-(xyzzy)
-DGB
-(NabNab)
-Shaft.ed
-Xtoxm

Unvote; Vote: vollkan

because he's on top here.

[Lawrencelot]

EBWOP: Hm actually, I'm not sure if I want vollkan out of this game (assuming that would happen when someone has enough votes).

Unvote; Vote: DGB

[Lawrencelot]

Why the brakets? I'm too

busy

lazy

to go back and figure it out right now.

Lol instead of 10, or only answering the complex part and not the unbalanced part, you could be up there in brackets too, but don't take it too serious.

[Lawrencelot]

Vote: Xtoxm.

Vollkan, what do you think, did xyzzy really want a massclaim? It's not something to lynch xtoxm for, but I certainly agree with hasdf... cow about xtoxm, and it is worth at least 2 votes imo.

My opinion about massclaim: it's bullshit. Maybe at lylo it is something to consider, but town has 0 information except their role pms, while scum may have several role pms (if it's an informed minority), maybe safeclaims, but heck, we don't even know which claims (or roles even) would be protown or antitown.

Xtoxm: please, tell us how a massclaim would be good for town.

[Lawrencelot]

This is important. I'm surprised nobody (myself included) thought to ask this until now.

The only problem is we have two people supporting the massclaim. It's origin (xyzzy) and its backer (Xtoxm), and only the first one to answer will provide anything relevant. I propose an anti-race.

First one of the two to post loses

.

I don't get this...

[Lawrencelot]

Although I agree with some points NabNab makes, I don't agree that shaft.ed is scummy for testing theories with his vote. The extra vote (which I didn't even notice btw) is something we might perhaps be able to understand if we mess around. On the other hand, the most likely solution is that it doesn't make sense, so I think it's more pointless than scummy. Also, does anyone know what to do with the story? If it has no meaning at all then I wonder why the mod put this effort in it. I can't see a relation with the surroundings in the first page.

By the way, I don't think the extra vote has to do something with the pegs. I think it's more likely that it's role-based, as I have a feeling that not many people have a boring role in this game... Then again, there are 12 pegs, while 7 votes are needed for a lynch. I think we should keep it in mind nevertheless.

Adel gives me scummy vibes... NabNab strikes me as agressive town. Reading page 8 was funny.

Unvote, IGMEOY Xtoxm

. I'd like to test shaft.eds theory too but I think it's better to wait for a votecount first.

[Lawrencelot]

I told you the reason for the story as I saw it. No one commented.

Hm ok, should've read more carefully. But if the story did suggest not to massclaim, it could mean that massclaiming is broken for town, or it could mean that massclaiming is broken for scum, so we still wouldn't know anything.

More importantly, what I think it means that more information about the setup will be teased out over time and what we know now is probably incomplete. Consider, for example, the possibility that we don't all have full knowledge of our own roles yet.

If there's more meaning to it, it will come out in the passage of time but it seemed to be a pretty clear message to me. The length of the story and what not is flavor and it might become relevant as we go along.

The other thing to decide is whether the story got triggered by someone getting three votes. We should wagon someone up to five votes and see if it triggers something else. Yes, it can be me. Just be careful, k? :p

This is more interesting. I still don't see how the story connects to the surroundings though. I'd like to test the 5 vote theory:

Vote: Paradoxombie

. I don't have a read on Paradoxombie; this vote is only for theory testing. To anyone who puts the next vote on him: be careful. I'll try to unvote as soon as he has got 5 votes.

@Adel: that quote is from vollkan, not from you. Your posts give me scummy vibes, though I maybe should call it intuition, since I can't back the feeling up with logic yet. It's not much; don't try to defend yourself until I have arguments.

[Lawrencelot]

Hm, interesting votecount.

Unvote

. I think it's safe to say this: I do not have information about having a double vote. It might be shaft.ed, or, more likely, the amount of votes on a certain player, and maybe the pegs have something to do with it too. Now unless someone else wants to put a third vote on Adel or anyone else to see if it really didn't have anything to do with me / shaft.ed / the wagoned persons, let's move to scumhunting. Or let's do both.

I still don't get Paradoxombie's reasoning for his vote on Adel. He says Adel voted someone for disagreeing with her, so he votes someone because he disagrees with Adel. That does'nt make... damn I'm starting to hate this theme. I think I'm understanding the case on Paradox now (after rereading a bit).

FOS: Paradox

.

By the way, I still haven't heard from anybody why massclaims would be beneficial to town. Now Adel says it's viable on Day 3, but although I don't know what will have happened at that time, I have to disagree. Massclaims could only be good when: a) ALL players want to massclaim, b) town knows scum doesn't have safeclaims c) town has run out of other options. I might be forgetting reasons, but in the first few days, and especially D1, massclaiming would be bad imo. We didn't even see any scumkills.

[Lawrencelot]

Ever hear of a "wall of words" scum defense? Does it apply here?

In this case it's almost bullshit, so yes I guess it could apply. (Note: I find most text starting from the lists bullshit)

A massclaim of rolenames could be acceptable, though it might spoil the fun/mistery of the game a bit. But the order is very important:

FOS: Adel

for suggesting a random order. I think it's best if everyone makes a list of the order of claims he'd like to see, if he agrees with a massrolenameclaim. I'll make my list later as I have to go now.

[Lawrencelot]

Why would you FOS Adel for that? O_O

FOS you for FOSing someone for such a standard thing.

Standard thing? From what I know, massclaiming isn't done randomly.

Indeed. What order would you like to see?

Let's see. I still don't have a read on everyone, so I think it's very early, but if everybody wants it (or a majority) I'll play along.

I've been thinking about the idea to let those that wanted a massclaim, claim last, and those that were against it, claim first, while still taking into account the scumminess as a main factor. I'm not sure if that's a good idea though, and I find the ones against a massclaim less scummy than the ones who wanted it

. Anyway, I'll try to make an attempt, though it can still change and I can't motivate everything. Let's not start until everybody clearly stated their opinion about a mass rolename claim though.

Meh, screw that, the ones suggesting massclaiming are more scummy so I'll just put them first.

1) Xtoxm
2) Adel
3) Paradoxombie
4) vollkan
5) xyzzy
6) Rogueben
7) hasdfgas
8) cicero
9) NabakovNabakov
10) shaft.ed
11) Lawrencelot

[Lawrencelot]

Lawrencelot, if the people who suggested a mass claim are "scummier" then why support it?

I don't support it, and I'm not against it. I wouldn't mind mass rolename claiming, but only if everybody or a majority agrees to do it. Now I clearly know that you and NabNab are against it, and Rogueben wants to wait, we shouldn't nameclaim (yet).

I've never heard of popcorn btw, it sounds good though.

New idea: what if we claim whether our rolenames have something to do with our roles or not? (not mentioning our rolenames) 2 people did it already.

[Lawrencelot]

What do you think of the potential risks vs potential benefits of the proposal?

Risk: the people who's rolenames have something to do with their role, might cause powerroles to be revealed. Benefit: if scum don't have safeclaims, we might be able to see who's claim does not match everyone else's. Or if we're really good we can see who's mimicking.

Test

vote: Xtoxm

.

So, what does everyone think about the notice? I think it could be someone's day power, or maybe these things trigger after certain (amounts of) posts or time.

[Lawrencelot]

I too am worried that Xtoxm is dumbtown, to state it blatantly. However, his joke post 318 is a good reason to keep my vote on him.

Confirm Vote: Xtoxm

.

So, shaft.ed has 2 votes. I doubt that, if someone had an action to give anyone a second vote, they would have used it this early. So I'll assume it's just the mod's work, and it might have something to do with the pegs too.

[Lawrencelot]

How is the joke in 318 helping to convince you he is scummy and not dumbtown?

Because that was when it appeared he was not serious about Adel.

[Lawrencelot]

How is the joke in 318 helping to convince you he is scummy and not dumbtown?

Because that was when it appeared he was not serious about Adel.

Then why maintain the vote?

Because not being serious does not look like noob-town to me
I thought he was noobtown, being serious about Adel, then it appeared he was not, which makes him look more scummy.

[Lawrencelot]

I thought he was noobtown, being serious about Adel, then it appeared he was not, which makes him look more scummy.

I don't think you can have 925 game posts and still be considered a newbie.

I need to find a better word for someone like this:

BTW, I think Xtoxm is not so bright at this point, not sure yet if he is scummy or not.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote

. Claim makes sense, in the way that the name and role doesn't make sense... Gah! I'll just respond to xyzzy:

I don't believe this claim at all.

Flavor?

What do you mean? The main theme of this game is "things that don't make sense". Making something like dynamite a doctor does not make sense, which fits the theme. Maybe you're unattentive scum, or you totally forgot this, which I don't believe as you said this at the start of the game:

(I propose a massclaim at some point.) We'll lynch whoever has the most normal role.

Vote: Xyzzy

Mind you, I think Xtoxm is playing horribly, but I do believe that he's town after seeing his claim. Since he still didn't answer this: Why did you claim? And if you wanted to claim, why didn't you just claim your rolename? Do you even realize that outing the doc is bad for town?

Shaft.ed: your theory is... possible, but it's just as likely as Xtoxm being jester or something. I wouldn't use it as an argument against Adel if that's your plan, unless Xtoxm is scum.

I think VI fits the bill at this point.

Ok, I'll use that term then.

[Lawrencelot]

Taking this off watched topics.

You don't even know if her daykill was real or fake...

What is OSV kill? 1-shot vig?

Anyway, even if Adel's kill was fake, I'm pretty sure Xtoxm is town. If it was real, we'll find out soon. Not that it matters, but I think the latter is more likely. The next question is: should we lynch Adel if Xtoxm is town? I'm not sure, I was a bit suspicious of Adel earlier, but I can understand her reasons for killing Xtoxm as town, although I don't agree with it. I also want to know how she jumped from not doc to dayvig as nabnab puts it, cuz it seemed she was right. I will keep my eye on Adel though.

About pikachu: since pokemon is a semi-semi-theme, I think there's good chance someone has a role like pikachu or his trainer Ash, controlling what he does either purposely or not.

[Lawrencelot]

note that xtoxm hasn't made any last min case against any other player, which is totally common for day-killed town-aligned players.

Wait, day-vigged townies don't make a last min case? In the sense like, day-vigged scum does? I don't understand this, sorry.

I forgot whether I unvoted or not, so

Unvote

. I suggest the other people voting Xtoxm unvote too.

Adel seems rather protown now.

That means you think Xtoxm is scum? Or do you think both are town?

[Lawrencelot]

Mod: please prod Xtoxm because he might think he's dead.

I'm pretty sure Xtoxm is town. If Xtoxm is mafia with Adel, I'll have to use my smart scum / dumb scum argument: the masterplan of getting day-vigged by Adel requires much more intelligence than he has shown so far. Adel scum with xyzzy is possible, but that looks a bit too obvious to me. In other words:
-Xtoxm is town (90% sure)
-Adel is not scum with xyzzy or xtoxm (75% sure)
-Adel is town (40% sure)
-xyzzy is town (60% sure)

Just in case someone thinks otherwise: the day-vig was fake.

Vote: Adel

.

[Lawrencelot]

If Adel is scum then who do you think Adel's buddy is?

That was partly my intention of the vote: to find this out. I don't know yet. It might be Xtoxm or you, but I don't find that more likely than anyone else.

Lawrencelot, if you are considering the Xtoxm Adel scumteam, then it's believeable that Xtoxm has acted stupid on purpose, and the fact that he's done it so much regarding Adel is what makes them both suspect. It would explain why Adel called xtoxm a VI, trying to justify his scumminess.

Yeah, I know that. But if you read his posts, do you really think he acted like that on purpose? His behaviour could have just as easily resulted into a lynch if it was his plan on beforehand. Adel's behaviour is worth noting, but Xtoxm's behaviour, I think, is just what it looks like.

[Lawrencelot]

I should point out that Lawrencelot played with me in Friends and Enimies where I owned as scum, and in Big Love where I was nk'd as a townie/lover night one, so he has seen me play as newbie-scum and briefly as near-newbie-town but I don't think he has seen me play under either alignment with my mature playstyle.

This is true. Maybe I just got scummy vibes from you because you played differently.

Unvote

for reasons besides this one.

I don't like Para's behaviour, but I won't vote him. We shouldn't risk losing a doctor. And his latest post makes me think he's town.

Vote: hasdfgas

.

Since Harry Potter is town, I think there's more chance that his enemies are antitown. Neville is no enemy, so the only reasons Para would be scum is if he's lying about his name or if Neville is antitown because that makes no sense.

Para, do you think there's a good chance that there is an SK or survivor in this game, if there are no werewolves or cults?

[Lawrencelot]

Sorry, guys, just got Brawl. I realize there's a deadline, but I think Para and Xtoxm are both not very good lynches. I really want to lynch someone, however, but prefereably someone like Adel/xyzzy/hasdgfas.

Unvote

, switching to one of these three, whichever has the most votes.

hasdfgas: admittedly, I didn't realize there were 2 doc claims. Your explanation was sufficient, but still I have a feeling you're not very protown. I'll answer your questions when I have time.

[Lawrencelot]

Sorry, guys, just got Brawl.

So did I, but that's not an excuse to totally drop off from posting in your games.

You're overreacting. You know how long I didn't post? I posted more than Cicero. And Brawl IS a good excuse.

I realize there's a deadline, but I think Para and Xtoxm are both not very good lynches.

Elaboration please?

Xtoxm because I don't think he would act like he did as scum. The reasons to not lynch Para are related to my own role pm.

I really want to lynch someone, however, but prefereably someone like Adel/xyzzy/hasdgfas.

Unvote

, switching to one of these three, whichever has the most votes.

Again, elaboration please? And you're leaving yourself open to 3 entirely different lynches without even saying why you like them as a lynch? Scummy, to say the least.

Adel, I dunno, she's making fun of people like Xtoxm, and it's mostly the vibes. I have a feeling she's not doing her best to catch scum, but my meta on Adel might be very different. I have reread your posts, and they don't seem scummy at all. I don't know why I thought you were scum, but the vote was because I thought you didn't believe Para's role at all. How sure are you that Para is lying/speaking the truth?

hasdfgas: admittedly, I didn't realize there were 2 doc claims. Your explanation was sufficient, but still I have a feeling you're not very protown.

A "feeling?" Is that the best you can muster with regards to a case on me and why I'm scummy?

It had to do with my own role, partially. However, seeing your explanations, I think you're town. I don't want to lynch you.

I'll answer your questions when I have time.

You're posting, therefore you should have time to answer the questions posed to you. Posting something saying "I'll post an answer when I have time" has often meant (from what I've seen) "I'm going to say I'm going to answer the questions, but in reality I'll hope that he forgets about the questions." It's like active lurking, coming in to post "I don't have time to post now, wait until later" and then never doing it.

Lol, I now see it was only one question. What you describe usually has to do with sentences like "I'm gonna reread" or "I'm gonna check out this player's posts".

I really need to vote someone. Not Xtoxm, not Para, not hasdfgas, not shaft.ed... and preferably not cicero or NabNab. Who do you suggest?

[Lawrencelot]

First of all: a question for those voting Paradoxombie. What do you think of DGB's alignment? And please unvote him, he's not todays lynch.

Sorry, guys, just got Brawl. I realize there's a deadline, but I think Para and Xtoxm are both not very good lynches. I really want to lynch someone, however, but prefereably someone like Adel/xyzzy/hasdgfas. Unvote, switching to one of these three, whichever has the most votes.

Supply reasons, or direct me to where you have previously given reasons. Thanks.

hasdfgas: admittedly, I didn't realize there were 2 doc claims. Your explanation was sufficient,

but still I have a feeling you're not very protown.

I'll answer your questions when I have time.

Interesting turn of phrase there.

For starters, you use the word "feeling". That comes second only to "hunch" in my lexicon of despised words.

Moreover, your reason for still suspecting hasd is that he doesn't seem "very protown". I ask you, then, who does seem "very protown"?

You simulposted. I'll direct you to the post above the quoted one . I use my feeling very much on Day 1, especially if a game starts with no night. Feeling (and my role pm) is all I have if no alignments are known. Until anyone is dead, providing a case based on good logic will be hard, also because ties to a living player don't tell that much. Who does seem protown to me? I'll make another list:
Paradoxombie: very protown, reasons are role-related
shaft.ed: very protown, role-related reasons, and feeling
xtoxm: pretty protown, mainly feeling
Nab-nab: a bit protown, mainly feeling
adel: could go either way. I assume town for now to prevent mislynching.
Others: don't know yet.

To those who played with xyzzy often: does he normally become more active after Day 1?

the vote was because I thought you didn't believe Para's role at all. How sure are you that Para is lying/speaking the truth?

I'm not sure either way, to be honest. I still want clarification on what Para means when he said "some kind of doctor." That can mean any number of different things, and because he claimed doctor, some people don't want to lynch him. I still want him to answer that question, because he seems to have ignored it in all posts since the question, which doesn't make me feel any better about him.

Can you answer this again, now that you know he explained it?

I think the first order of business should be to get the fairly pointless votes off of Xyzzy unless someone can provide a good reason for them being there.

Why don't you tell us why they shouldn't be there? For me, for example, Xyzzy would be a good lynch target: I have protown reads on several players, xyzzy didn't contribute much, yet he did take a stand and people have expressed thoughts about him. Same counts for Rogueben, but finding ties with him would be much harder.

The reasons to not lynch Para are related to my own role pm.

Can you elaborate without giving much info away?

I'm afraid I cannot. Maybe later in the game.

Small summary on xyzzy:
He was pretty active pregame. Day 1 starts, he suggests massclaiming at some point. Causes discussion, which is good. Xyzzy lurks. Then he suggests nameclaiming late D1-ish. So, xyzzy, why don't you go ahead? You got 1 full day to let everyone claim. He doesn't believe Xtoxms claim. Buddies up with Adel in xyzzy's posts 19, 21, 22, (23), 24.

This is probably even less contributing than Rogueben. Considering there are several people that I find protown, I think xyzzy is a safe lynch. It will also tell us more about Adel, someone who many people think can be just as easily scum as town. And it might tell us more about Xtoxm too, which would tell us more about other players.

Vote: Xyzzy

[Lawrencelot]

@ Lawrencelot, what is the meaning of your reference to DGB's alignment?

The answers to that question, I'm pretty sure would be informative for me, while not being very informative to scum. But now that we're lynching xyzzy or Rogueben, it's not that important anymore.

I'm willing to switch to Rogueben. I'm not sure if his lynch is just as informative as Xyzzy's, but the case is just as strong I think. I also got zero protown vibes from him, and it appears he took less risks than xyzzy, and bandwagoned more.

Unvote; Vote: Rogueben

[Lawrencelot]

Wait, I thought I put Rogueben at lynch -1? Sorry Rogueben, I might have bought the claim.

I need to use the time we have to ask one last question. How sure is everyone that Rogueben is town?

[Lawrencelot]

EBWOP: I'm especially interested in Paradoxombie's answer.

[Lawrencelot]

I loathe "accidental" hammers.

Says someone who also didn't notice the hammer...

Only nabnab has the right to say this.

Adel, if you're still around: how sure are you that Rogueben is town?

[Lawrencelot]

Hm, dilemma. Rogueben, you owe me one for this, although I can blame myself too.

I have a 1-shot governor role. I can prevent Rogueben's lynch, and I will, after thinking about it. Why? Because the people I trust, think he's town, and I think so too. Why tell this? If scum see that the lynch is blocked, they'd figure it's me anyway. This will prevent confusion to the town, and keep me from getting killed by Rogueben (I assume). The only downside is that Rogueben needs to kill, and that I can't use my power on anyone else.

Rogueben, you know who to kill.

[Lawrencelot]

Interesting thought. The mod gave me 48 hours to decide, so maybe we'll turn to night tomorrow (RL). My role says nothing about giving a new day, only that it is a governor ability, which means that I prevent a lynch. The wiki also says nothing about ending the day or not.

Hm, you can never be careful enough:

Unvote

.

[Lawrencelot]

Man, I'm away for 1 day and there's chaos everywhere. This game is becoming very interesting though.

I don't care whether we mass nameclaim or not. I don't see the point of it, because scum probably have safeclaims, and even if they don't we might not be able to tell scum from town. And most names don't make sense anyway. So

Fos: xyzzy

for that.

Also:
Where were you when Lawrencelot saved RB(Rogueben, not roleblocker, Xyzzy) solely because shaft.ed said he was town? Because you certainly weren't so outspoken then.

My decision was not solely based on shaft.ed's opinion, although it did help me decide.

Here's my updated scumlist:
adel: 70% scum
para: 70% scum
xyzzy: 60% scum
shaft.ed: 95% town
xtoxm: 75% town
Others: don't know yet.

That's right, paradoxombie appeared very protown to me first, but although it is no ability of mine, I have a theory about his ability, and it doesn't look good. I can elaborate more if it is necessary, but for now I'll put a

FOS: Paradoxombie

.

Adel and Paradoxombie are my top suspects. But let's first take a look who's got a double vote. Test

vote: cicero

. I have no post restriction btw.

Rogueben, I think you're blocked by shaft.ed. Can you elaborate on why you tried to kill paradoxombie? And who do you think killed nabnab?

Oh, one last thing. What do you all think about the pegs? I think someone has an ability to change or add/remove the pegs. It's not me though.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote

.

So who killed Nabnab? Who gave hasdfgas a double vote? Who added a peg to the meter? Don't answer if it helps scum.

I think activity will drop a bit with these post restrictions. Sorry guys, I was the one who gave Guardian the idea pregame

Man, I just want to lynch Para to check his alignment... but my own arguments for why he's scum are just as abstract as my arguments for him being town.

[Lawrencelot]

I think Adel's reasons for suspecting hasdfgas are opportunistic and insincere.

Vote: Adel

.

Only problem is, that I'm not sure if hasdfgas is town (but if he isn't I could see Adel's behaviour as bussing), and Adel is posting much more than others. But she does give me scummy vibes anyway.

[Lawrencelot]

I don't think hasdgfas is the play for today.

What makes you think that?

[Lawrencelot]

crap, I got para-zombie and rb mixed up in my last post.

Now I'm confused. You didn't believe RB's claim I thought, but you mean in your last post that you don't believe para's claim right? And you think Para is the play for today. Why is para the play? And I also need to know: do you believe RB's claim yes or no? Your reaction to RB's claim was also one of the reasons why I think you're scum.

[Lawrencelot]

crap, I got para-zombie and rb mixed up in my last post.

Now I'm confused. You didn't believe RB's claim I thought, but you mean in your last post that you don't believe para's claim right? And you think Para is the play for today. Why is para the play? And I also need to know: do you believe RB's claim yes or no? Your reaction to RB's claim was also one of the reasons why I think you're scum.

I need to reread and actually keep my notes this time. Somehow PB and para-zombie became one player in my mind, and now I'm not sure which is which...

unvote

This happens to me once too. I'm gonna check if I was scum or town then

[Lawrencelot]

Ah, found it. It happened to me in an on-going game where I turned out scum. It's not a big scumtell, but I think it would happen more to scum than town because town (and especially powerroles) tend to give their game more attention. If this happened on Day 1 I'd consider it a null-tell, but now it's a small scum-tell.

Is cicero dead or what? Even xyzzy posts more.

What bothers me in this game, is that the people I find scummy are posting way more and even scumhunting more than the people I find neutral. I've reread vollkan's posts, and he does react to players in different ways, but I find it hard to see which is bussing and which is not.

[Lawrencelot]

So why are people becoming less sure PX is scum?

I'm becoming less sure he's town. Why do you think he's scum?

[Lawrencelot]

Ok, so I got a OSV thrown in too...But it's essentialy Doc.

What was your exact claim? I wa sunder the impression you cliamed straight doc.

He dies when he hits a protown player + something I forgot

That makes it possible enough for him to be a doc, but his claim isn't the reason I think he might be scum.

[Lawrencelot]

Adel, I'll try it from the top off my head:
xyzzy: triforce of wisdom, mistery role. Targeted shaft.ed last night, probably gave him PR.
para: neville longbottom, sort of doctor. dunno if he said who he protected.
xtoxm: (napoleon?) dynamite, doctor and osv. Killed vollkan.
Lawrencelot: one-shot governor. Used D1 on Rogueben.
Rogueben: Link, forced vig. Targeted... Para, right?

Xtoxm is looking smarter and smarter to me. Cicero is looking scummier. I don't think Para is fishing. He's just saying out loud what everyone including scum could think after reading shaft.ed's posts. Shaft.ed, just don't answer the questions if it helps scum.

The pegs look interesting indeed. Although there's only been one night, I guess every night there will be more pegs. I don't know what the positions mean, but maybe the pegs are related to the PRs too. I'd like to know other's opinions on this.

I could see cicero acting like this both as scum and as town. I don't like his xyzzy vote though. Xyzzy, what makes you think he's a triforce? He didn't post in the discussion between you and shaft.ed.

Cicero, what do you think of the gillyweed kill? What do you think of Para and Adel?

[Lawrencelot]

So Xyzzy is a mystery role. Throwing around post restrictions. Wants everyone to nameclaim since the beginning of the game. Won't tell us why. I have info about claims leading to a scum win... and I'm looking scummier.

OK then.

Guardian rubs marmots on himself before he goes clubbing. Best cologne in the world, he says.

How does having info about how scum could win, make you town? In fact, I think it's even scummier. Xyzzy, don't answer my last question, I think I have an idea about it.

Also, the fact that xyzzy wanted to massclaim and you do not, doesn't make you town either. I think I have an idea now, why xyzzy wanted to massclaim, or at least mass rolename claim, although I don't really get the target thing.

Unvote; Vote: cicero

I think one of Xyzzy and cicero is scum, and possibly one of Para and Adel too.

[Lawrencelot]

This stinks to high heaven to me right now. I would vote Lawrencelot, OMGUS be damned, but I'm already voting Xyzzy.

Xyzzy's entire game has pretty much been to come in and push for claims. And his name isn't Pie Is Good.

If you have an idea why massclaiming is good, share it with the class. Xyzzy wont.

I have reason to believe a mass claim would be bad based on information provided by the mod - which makes me suspect rolefishers a great deal in this game.

I'll happily handle some votes on me, but why exactly is Xyzzy earning your BotD, Lawrencelot? Knowing info on scum winning might make me scummy, but warning you not to mass claim certainly doesn't.

Am I the only one with tidbits of info from the moderator? I'm willing to bet that I'm not.

Guardian actually is a Guardian...well he's a security Guard... at a women's prison. But somehow he still can't get no satisfaction.

Sharing why massclaiming is good takes away the whole purpose of massclaiming in a closed game. What's BotD? Xyzzy claimed Triforce of Wisdom, and I believe his claim. I did say knowing info on scum winning makes you scummy, but I didn't say not wanting to mass claim makes you scummy: about that, I only said it was not necessarily protown.

And: if the scumwin could be prevented by town, massclaiming might be good for town, even from your point of view if you had this info at town. Do you think Xyzzy is aware of your information?

[Lawrencelot]

Maybe the pegs have something to do with the PRs. Or the other surroundings.

Also, if we knew vollkan gave his PR to cicero it would not clear cicero. Especially if cicero would have said: guys I'm not posting much because I got a PR.

Why did Para reveal his protect? Oh well...

[Lawrencelot]

Mod: please prod Xyzzy and hasdfgas

Adel, that list is bullshit. Completely inaccurate. Seriously, if you ask it often enough, I'm sure someone will find a mistake eventually

[Lawrencelot]

I'm gonna try to make something out of vollkan's posts:
1-11: pregame
12: agrees with massclaim. Does anyone think this is in favour or against the theory that scum have safeclaims?
13: agrees with Nabnab, kinda disagrees with massclaim.
14: disagreeing with hasd
15: sarcastic against hasd
18: disagrees with para
19: agrees with para's logic, which I didn't agree with.
21: agrees with cicero
26: attacks xyzzy
30: overreacts to xtoxms claim
32: defends adel, cunningly suggest to look at xyzzy if adel is scum. I see this as a small argument against Adel. 33 too
37: defends xtoxm
42: defends Adel
45: most interesting post. This post now gives us no extra info about cicero, xyzzy, hasdfgas, and not much about Rogueben, Xtoxm, shaft.ed. Para is first on his scumlist, so much that I think it's not bussing: if Para is scum, he's probably not with vollkan. Adel, however, is second, together with me: sometimes as scum I put a scummy townie on top of my list, and my scummy buddy second or third, to not let it seem bussing or defending, and not taking too much risk lynching him. Vollkan says Adel is hard to get a read on, yet puts her second on his scumlist. Seeing as how he defended Adel some times, and even defends her in the same post when he talks about me, I think Adel is his most likely scumbuddy.

Vollkan also calls NabNab the most protown. I don't agree with this, yet I also do not think it's a very controversial stance, so he's my best guess as a third buddy, if there is one, but I'm way less sure about him.

I still think one of cicero and xyzzy might be scum, probably cicero. But I'm more sure about Adel. It also happens to be in line with my first feelings.

Unvote; Vote: Adel

[Lawrencelot]

NN was NKed by the scum, btw!

Uhm... that was a test. Lol, now I'm the VI.

One of the triforce could well be scum...I'm conviced Shaft is innocent. Could be either of the other 2, if it is one.

I was top on volkan's scum list...And I still think PX is likely scum based on the NK...I think we should lynch him.

After that my top suspicion is Hasd...

Do you think Para is scum with vollkan? 'Cuz I don't.

Just noticed...5/9 have claimed...How about we finish it off?

Depends on if you believe cicero or not. I don't mind rolename claiming, but if cicero thinks it can help scum, we should be careful.

[Lawrencelot]

he did claim triforce... safeclaim? shaft.ed, what is your opinion on it?

I no longer get
why xyzzy wanted massclaim
Nibbler runs quite fast

xyzzy, why push for
a massclaim without target?
Nibbler reads real fast

I do not get your
motivation for massclaim
Nibbler has huge arms

Because having a triforce role lets me confirm 3 people, including link.

Are any of Adel, cicero and Paradoxombie confirmed to you? Others I don't need to know.

[Lawrencelot]

Cicero is suspicious for not claiming "no triforce". Adel was suspicious to me already, but her last post made her look more scummy to me.

Mod

: who's the back-up mod? Could you find someone for votecounts only?

[Lawrencelot]

why on earth would a town-aligned shaft.ed reveal that? that is exactly the kind of information I sit on so I can catch scum.

That is pure flavor
Available to us all
Nibbler has nice eyes

Im confused. I thought you were saying that you were referencing special information in your pm. How is it flavor available to all?

Guardian is an avatar of Shiva, but his third eye mostly just watches porno all day.

I think he means that the Triforce of Power is in hands of Ganondorf in the Zelda games, and Ganondorf is evil. Which doesn't mean this would be an antitown role though.

[Lawrencelot]

Did the double vote switch?

Mod: could you check if the votecount is correct?

[Lawrencelot]

hasdfgas, could you vote someone who has no votes plz?

[Lawrencelot]

But now 2 people have a double vote. I'm gonna test mine:

Unvote; Vote Xtoxm

[Lawrencelot]

Mod:

I'll be away for 7 days, with no or very limited access. I hope I don't have to be replaced, but I understand a week might be too long.

I'll

unvote

in the meantime.

[Lawrencelot]

Sorry that I wasn't around to lynch Adel guys. I agree with shaft.ed entirely. I don't know if Adel would self-vote, but I'll just make a threat: Adel, vote yourself or get lynched. I too want to see Kison claim (welcome to the game btw).

[Lawrencelot]

Let me guess... Xtoxm has a post restriction. Or better: antirestriction. Or did you just feel like decaple posting?

I am a bit worried that Xtoxm is not finding Adel suspicious. But whoever Adel's partner is, is for later concern. Xtoxm, how sure are you about Adel's alignment?

[Lawrencelot]

Oh...Sorry about that, things just kept pooping into my head, didn't realise I made a load of simul-posts. No restriction/antirestriction

I'm pretty sure Adel is town.

Do you not think what I said makes sense?

I am a bit worried that Xtoxm is not finding Adel suspicious. But whoever Adel's partner is, is for later concern.

This sounds like you're implying i'm scum.

Why is Adel town? What you say makes sense, except that Adel is town. What if Para targeted her? That also fits with the flavour. And no I am implying that if Adel turns up scum, I will not only look at Kison but also at you.

I really want to vote Adel. Who thinks it's risky?

[Lawrencelot]

I don't know if you're scum. I also don't know Kison is scum. All I got is Adel

Your logic looks good, but if the one is a frame that doesn't necessarily mean the other one's a frame. And if it's the mafia who chooses the way of killing, there's also WIFOM. A normal frame makes someone look guilty to cops btw, so I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.

[Lawrencelot]

Mod: please prod Kison.

If we're waiting for a Kison claim, we might better pressure him. I won't, as I am less interested in Kison's claim than in Adel's alignment. But if everyone wants me not to vote Adel, I'll wait for the claim.

Xtoxm I'm not accusing you of being scum. All I said was "I'm worried that you think Adel is town". You are close to cleared, only if Adel turns up scum and if Kison will look way more protown than you in some miracle way, then I'll consider you being scum.

[Lawrencelot]

I was about to claim, but now I decided to wait to see what happens with Adel now that she voted herself. I have my fully written post saved on my pc. If anyone thinks I should claim before we know what happens to Adel, please say so.

[Lawrencelot]

This is what I wanted to post. Just read it like a new post. But keep in mind that nothing what I say here, is a reason for why I think Adel is scum.

My rolename is something like "politically/historically correct blabla astute

gossip monger

". It's too long to remember. I'm part of the things that don't make sense town. I had a 1-shot governor ability, but I have more abilities, of which some seem to have no effect at all. One ability is to check if someone is a historical disfigurement. I targeted vollkan N1, he was a historical disfigurement. I targeted Adel N2, she was not, but that's not the reason for why I think she's scum, as I think she's Harry Potter scum (who could still be on Vollkan's side though).

I do have one ability that can either clear Kison or make sure he's scum, or give no information at all. I would like Kison to answer this: does the alternate win condition have something to do with the pegs? And if it does, do you have an ability to prevent this from happening?

If Kison is town, I think Adel is scum. If Kison is scum, I think Adel is scum. I'm more than 50% sure that Kison is scum before hearing his answer. You do the math.

I will wait for Kison's answer before voting.

[Lawrencelot]

So who do you think is scum Xtoxm?

[Lawrencelot]

You don't think that finding out if someone's a historical disfiguremant could be some kind of cop ability?

Interesting, I just reread my role pm, and it explicitly states that I am NOT a cop. Is this important? (don't answer if you don't want to)

Before Kison's claim I was thinking RB - Kison, now i'm not so sure...I guess Adel's a possibility.

I'm still happy that you and shaft are town.

I think it's time for you to reveal you're target shaft?

Cool. I actually have my doubts about Rogueben now, but Kison and Adel are still more likely. I suggest shaft waits for Kison to answer my questions, if the information of his targets is not that helpful for town.

[Lawrencelot]

'Cuz of the flavour I think. But now that Adel voted herself, I think the flavour means nothing. I'll probably vote Adel later.

[Lawrencelot]

Confirming everything shaft.ed said. You did good with that PR shaft.ed, sorry for giving the mod the idea pregame

I do agree with shaft.ed's plan, but now that Xtoxm voted Adel and not Kison, I will

Vote: Adel

too. If Adel is not scum, she has a very weird role, possibly in a group of her own, but whatever it is I don't believe she's just a doctor.

Rogueben: kill Kison tonight, or get lynched next day. Xtoxm if you plan to protect Kison tell so, so that we can change the plan, if you're protecting someone else don't tell us of course.

[Lawrencelot]

Xtoxm, why did you unvote? ...

[Lawrencelot]

I'm willing to lynch Kison or Adel. Since Kison did not answer my question, I'll pressure him.

Unvote, vote Kison

. I know shaft.ed had information of an alternative town win condition, that is why I found it more likely cicero was scum. I don't want to lynch RB, he could be scum but Kison and Adel are way more likely to be scum. If Rogueben is an SK we're screwed anyway. Rogueben: kill either Adel or Kison plz.

[Lawrencelot]

Mind you, both vollkan and NabNab were historical disfigurements (I'm more sure about vollkan) so not being a historical disfigurement does not make Adel town. It makes me more inclined to believe her rolename, but I already believed her rolename, only not her role. Rogueben's activity in this game disappoints me btw; maybe I should've saved my ability for now.

[Lawrencelot]

RB's role is also not in question; only that it could be scum-aligned (or SK). I don't want to lynch RB though.

Kison, thanks for answering my questions. I still think you're scum though.

I have found out that the player who controls the pegs is protown. My role only said that there is a player who can add pegs, but looking at the other information I have now, I have deduced that this must be a protown player. I ask this question to everyone: please say whether you can control the pegs or not. Having another confirmed protown will make things more easy.

I don't have control of the pegs.

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote.

Rogueben, are you the one who controls the pegs, and would you be willing to lynch Adel?

[Lawrencelot]

Wtf no one controls the pegs... oh maybe hasdfgas or paradoxombie did it. That takes away the latest (not last) reason for why I thought Kison was scum. I am willing to lynch Adel now.

Vote: Adel.

[Lawrencelot]

RB: Yes, lynch Adel, and if she's scum, kill Kison. If Adel is town, kill Kison too if you can. I hope Kison has no special bus driver role or something like that.

Xtoxm: don't protect Kison because you think RB is scum. If RB and Adel are scum, he would probably not lynch Adel. If RB and Kison are scum, he would probably not kill Kison. Him doing both is the right thing to do I think.

Xtoxm is a bit more than 90% town in my eyes.

[Lawrencelot]

I got a post

restriction

. I hope you guys post soon each time I make a post, for I may not post twice in a row. I think that

Kison

speaks the truth.

[Lawrencelot]

I can not say that, but I

targeted Rogueben

.

[Lawrencelot]

I'm completely at a loss at this point. I don't know why my kill didn't work.

The odds seem to be stacking up against me, with Kison claiming the results he has (which I can say are definitely false).

The biggest thing that I don't understand though is how Kison's results fit so perfectly with what you guys did last night, and my target has done nothing. I think Guardian is playing funny buggers with me or something because I can't work this out.

What I can categorically say though is my role name is Link and I win with the town. I am also definitely a forced vig. Besides that I am totally at a loss as to what is going on.

I really don't want the town to lose when it's so close to winning now. If you choose to vote for me, I don't blame you at this point because that's probably what I would do looking at what's happened yesterday and today, but I will be really disappointed when we lose.

This post says

enough

.

Vote: Rogueben

.

Xtoxm

, please wait with your vote, as

Kison

could still be scum, and for this too:

EBWOP:
If you are thinking about voting me, can you please wait at least until I receive some clarification on something from Guardian. That may shed light on something.

Yes, I may quote. But I may not use quotes in a "smart" way.

[Lawrencelot]

It pains me to see you do that Lawrence. If you lynch me today can you see town winning (assuming that I am town)?

Also where did your post restriction come from. The only person who targeted you apparently was Xtoxm. So is Xtoxm giving restrictions now too?

Or you.

Kison

says you were my aim, which is true, so I was your aim?

[Lawrencelot]

Unvote

[Lawrencelot]

I can not post that with my

restriction

, but I will quote that when I think you should be lynched.

Kison

would have had a lot of luck if he chose me and you while he was scum. How would he know you were my aim if I was the aim of

Xtoxm

and

Kison

?

[Lawrencelot]

So you think

Kison

is scum, but speaks the truth of his

ability

?

[Lawrencelot]

Rogueben

you need to

answer

this: do you know of way to win just like

Kison

?

Kison

knows how scum can win.

[Lawrencelot]

I know of no other way to win besides for the regular way town wins.

And what is this way? How does town win in this game? How do you win?

Kison

is the

special

scum win still a threat? If not, could you tell me of it?

[Lawrencelot]

Kison

would your

answer

be the same as

Rogueben's

if I ask you the same as him?

[Lawrencelot]

Xtoxm

what do you think of the names of roles that are

historically

"wrong", like

NabakovNabakov

and

vollkan

?

[Lawrencelot]

You mean historical disfigurements? Only thing I seem to see in common with them is both related to PR's.

Oh btw Law - You don't happen to think, or otherwise know by any means, that RB is something to do with being a historical disg?

Or no?

Yes that is what I mean.

Rogueben

was my aim last night, and I found out he is not in that group. So I think

Rogueben

did not give me the fun posts.

Kison

or you did, or the mod. That does not mean

Rogueben

is town though.

Here's and idea...You were given a PR, yeh? This means either:

- Scum gave you PR intentially and tried to kill me.
- Scum gave you PR unintentionally, and tried to kill you.
- Townie gave you PR unintentially, and scum tried to kill you.

Napoleon's dynamite sounds awfully similar...It's historical, for one. And Napoleon, I hear, had a/some "disgfurements".

I killed the first night, so wouldn't have done anything...Perhaps it's possible I have something to do with this PR's?

First one does not sound good: why would you not be dead? Can you find out if you could have gave me the fun posts? I

forgot

this: was someone your aim and also scum's aim before? Like last night I was your aim and also scum's aim?

[Lawrencelot]

Can

someone

make a list of all times there was a fun post time, with the day in it? Hope you get my question.

[Lawrencelot]

Thank you,

Kison

.

Shaft.ed's

one was for a long long time, but just the first one you said. If you or

someone

else could make a list of aims too, that would help me a lot. I got warned once, by the way, for my last post. I can be warned no more than three times.

[Lawrencelot]

Yes. Just those that are claimed.

[Lawrencelot]

You mean Night Two. Thanks for the

information

. I looked for things with the pegs too, but could not find it. Who knows who changed the pegs each time?

[Lawrencelot]

I think I understand what you are saying here. That is that if Kison targeted you he wouldn't have known which of the targets was your target. However if he had targeted you I believe he would have received the following:

Lawrencelot <--> Xtoxm
Lawrencelot <--> Rogueben

I believe this is pretty easy to work out who targeted who. The logical choice for Xtoxm last night was to target Lawrencelot.

That leaves Lawrencelot targeting me.

From there all he has to claim is that I targeted Lawrencelot and that implies that I am scum.

All this assumes that Kison is scum now, but I am more sure of that than I have been of pegging scum in any game I've played before.

I spot a wrong thing here. What is in bold does not have to be true, as he did not know I had a thing that needs an aim. Or did he?

Kison

: I think you are scum.

Answer

this:

What is the alternative win condition?

Xtoxm

: what if there are just two scum?

Rogueben

fits kill role well, but not plain scum.

[Lawrencelot]

I will vote

Rogueben

soon, as all things

Kison

says match well with what I know. But first

Kison

needs to

explain

this and this:

2) One aspect of the Triforce must target Link.

Which one?

targeted him last night because I knew that our side of the condition had already been met. My targeting him should not affect the outcome.

I do not get this. It should have?

This information does absolutely nothing to benefit us aside from giving a heads up, yet that's too obvious of a play.

Wrong. It helps me way more than those two lists, though that helped me too.

[Lawrencelot]

Xtoxm

, do not vote, please! Let me make the call, and help me think of all things we know.

I think

Rogueben

is scum, but I will ask

Kison

one last thing, and this is big for all:

Shaft.ed

knew of a town win: all three parts have to target Link on a night, and then town wins. He thought it was weird that

Xyzzy

did not know of this, and

Kison

does not know of it as well (so he says).

Kison

, can you

explain

this?

Xtoxm

, what do you think of this? This is also why I saved

Rogueben

, by the way.

[Lawrencelot]

Was that in both you and shaft.ed's role-pm or did shaft.ed tell you that?

He told me. I am not from

Zelda

.

[Lawrencelot]

Hmm. I think this a point in favor of Kison scum actually. Had Kison not been scum then a mass claim would have caused the town to win because shaft.ed could have just said his town win requirement and that night all three would have targeted me. However with one of the triforce as scum, that would not have allowed the town to win through a mass name claim.

But

xyzzy

did not know of all this.

[Lawrencelot]

Shaft.ed

knew of a town win: all three parts have to target Link on a night, and then town wins. He thought it was weird that

Xyzzy

did not know of this, and

Kison

does not know of it as well (so he says).

Kison

, can you

explain

this?

Xtoxm

, what do you think of this? This is also why I saved

Rogueben

, by the way.

From my perspective the answer is pretty obvious. You're saying the Town's win condition is that all 3 aspects of the Triforce target Link? Xyzzy and Shafted are Town. I know I am Town. That means we could have broken the game with a simple mass claim. But Xyzzy apparently didn't get the same info, and I have a huge disincentive for role claiming. Top that off with the fact that from my own perspective at least, Shaft.ed could have been scum trying to trigger a scum win condition. I'd be hesitant following his lead without knowing he was Town(which was not possible until Day Three).

So you think the town win was true? There was a way for town to win, and for scum too? Why would the mod tell

Shaft.ed

to let

Rogueben

be his aim, while that is good for the scum win?

[Lawrencelot]

Not for last posts of

Kison

, but

Vote: Rogueben

. Good game.

If I'm wrong,

sorry Xtoxm

.

[Lawrencelot]

Vote: Kison

[Lawrencelot]

Seriously Guardian, this was one of the most fun games I've played. I really like figuring out what the heck is going on, and with so many red herrings and DGB's flavour it's even more fun . I already thought the capitols did nothing though, but the pegs were hard to find out .

I didn't read everything post-game, I don't have time now but will share my comments later. This was a very good game, and exciting till the end. Congrats town.

[Lawrencelot]

DGB's role was genius. But if you were town, why confuse us with the flavour? (it was funny, but didn't help us very much)

I only don't understand how Triforce of Power would be a safeclaim, everyone (besides Shaft.ed, he had to look it up ) knows that this Triforce is in the possession of Ganondorf, who is evil. If the theme was not didn't make sense, Kison's rolename would just reveal that he's scum. In fact, because the theme was things that don't make sense, I thought Link was scum and the Triforce of Power town.

Guardian, where did I violate my PR three times? I thought it was two times.

[Lawrencelot]

Only now I realized 9.75 was the train platform in Harry Potter... not that it matters much.

Also, the PR's were a suggestion by me . This was my private questionnaire:

On a scale of 1-10, with 1 being town and 10 being anti-town, where do you want to be? (note: there are only so many anti-town slots and I might have already made up my mind... the game is called iPick )
I really don't mind, but I don't like being a survivor or something, so between 1 and 10 I'll choose 1.
On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being unable to speak, how comfortable would you be with having a role with a significant post restriction?
7
On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being uncommon, how comfortable would you be with having a role that is very uncommon/unconventional?
10
On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being bad, how likely are you to need replacement?
1. I never got replaced, and hopefully never will be.
Any specific role/type of role you want?
A cool power role that can be used during day or twilight.
I may completely ignore this, but any private expectations you have for this game, make them known here, and I'll ignore them, or if you are lucky, take them into account .
Do something with

breadcrumbs

: involve them in the game mechanics. Or not.

Oh lol. It wasn't me after all. Huh, I really thought I suggested PR's. Well my suggestions did not go through then

[Lawrencelot]

I like your breadcrumbs idea, Lawrencelot. I dont know how to action that as a mod but I hope you manage to do it in some game in the future. You could make a power role need to leave a breadcrumb each day if they want to use their power, for example. (not necessarily a good idea. just the first one that popped into my little head.)

Yeah I'm sad Lawrencelot didn't get to use the breadcrumb of our mason pairing.

Well, it wasn't necessary because of the governor thing, but thanks

[Lawrencelot]

He couldn't use any words with more than one syllable, except for one word, unless it was unvote/a player's name. Notice he italicized any multi-syllable words.

And I couldn't double post, which was actually more annoying (the monosyllable thing wasn't that annoying but it's easy to slip up)