Mini Normal 1920 (Game Over)

[Regfan]

Not interested in enemies either, I just know your slots scum and to be fair more of it's based on Froggers play than your own which means you replaced into a pretty impossible situation to begin with and for that I am indeed sorry? I'll be around post-game but probably prefer some discussion to be done inside PM's since I don't think post-game needs excessive non-game related drama.

If you want to help speed this up by selfvoting I'm sure Eeves lurking around and can hammer and we can start discussing whatever you want to after that.

[Regfan]

Oh trust me, I think this game would have played out very differently if you'd draw a town slot. I have zero issues with the way you were playing other than a "Man this is annoying because I know this slots scum and I need others to see it as much as I do" type situation. I'm pretty sure had you been town we'd have had a few conversations about how it's plausible we're both town here and that we need to step back although I think we were always going to clash to some degree since we both look at games very differently.

[Regfan]

My initial frustration stemmed from the fact that I'd done some rereading in the night and thought "Frogger is probably mafia over Eeve here" but I didn't want to lock myself into that stance in case you'd replaced into a town slot and started ObvTowning it, but your replace in posting just didn't do that at all and I started realising you'd taken an angle where as mafia you were going to reveal yourself to me but set up a 1 v 1 where I'd have to try harder than I intended to win the game with risk of potentially being mslynched. It wasn't a bad tactic because I was feeling slightly tilted at times.

Don't have an issue with you as a person and think you care about games more than most players which is a plus for you as a player, the way we assess games differently is always going to mean we butt heads inside a game but I'm always willing to work with a player I think is town or think could be town and are active, very willing to bounce thoughts back and forth.

Anyway I'll wait for Mastina to announce postgame for other thoughts.

[Regfan]

Not a fan of this setup at all, it's plausible for town to have enough clears from N1 actions to have autowin D2 unless mafia can convince them there's a fake PR which isn't an easy task without them having to fake claim themselves. Had GI not been roleblocked this game becomes pretty much autowin which is...kind of silly easy to win that way. Sure you can make the argument of "Scum shot a VT" or "Town used their actions well" but for me that's still not enough to warrant this and I do understand that my role was to decrease the odds of it playing out well for town and that's at least something that I do like in the setup but that'd be about it. I wouldn't have passed this, I don't like that this was passed, I don't like the direction that setups are getting passed in but this is probably more of a discussion that either need not occur or should be dealt with elsewhere so I'll probably just end it there for now.

Outside of the actual setup I thought the game was run very smoothly, lots of vote counts, filling replacement slots very quickly, handling night actions / empty slots overnight in a reasonable manner, ;goodmodding; things from both Mastina and Nancy in that regard.

I think scum suffered from not really having any of their players in the game taken any sort of real control at any point and having far too many conftowns to deal with, meant their avenue of victory was very small and didn't really give them much wiggle room. If one of them took control D2 and locked the lynch in on FF at that point the game probably becomes more interesting if they try and go for the GreyICE mslynch after that but I don't think they get it so I'm not really sure what I'd have done in their shoes here. I think /most/ town players were right about at least something this game if not multiple things which never makes for an easy game as mafia.

Enjoyed playing with a lot of players inside this game, would love to play with a few again at some point including a few people I don't think I've played with before like iDannyboy and Gerryoat. See some serious potential in other players too.

GreyICE, your reads D1 were pretty fucking solid; you had both Chickadee and LMK nailed and had Massive in your PoE. In fact your reads throughout the whole game were fine and I can't even fault you for the FF push and vote given it's mechanically the right move to make since the odds of him being mafia non-scumhunting wise were significantly higher than anyone else. That said I really would have loved it if you worked with me a little in at least considering and/or discussing teams and players that didn't involve FF being mafia and I'm still pretty clueless how you had MMM/Massive unaligned but was pretty happy playing you again, knowing you were town confidently early on this game helped steady me a lot.

Not particularly proud of my D1 play here, the Tchill/MMM misreads were obviously pretty damn wrong, don't think I'd have been able to turn around the scum-read on Tchill but I should have been able to get out of the MMM misread earlier, most of my other reads D1 were pretty decent though and started to correct course on D2 where scum never touched my town reads, think from there I took as much control as I could and only really cased mafia. Willing to take advice/suggestions from players on what I can improve on as always.

Will probably go into my thoughts on other players at some point tonight.

[Regfan]

Barring that, it was really a matter of how many town clears could be generated and/or how destructive a false guilty could be. Without scum generating a false innocent or a false guilty through roleblocker use, their path to victory was probably really really narrow (like, basically being required to kill the cop on n1 for starters)

This is my qualm with the setup, scum are fairly reliant on someone either being incorrectly cleared or incorrectly guiltied to be put in a good position in the game and given I'm not really a fan of GF type roles and think setups should minimise false clearances or guilties, I think mods are trying to get "too clever" with setups nowadays and that's not really what I like seeing in Mini Normals that often. And if that doesn't happen town are instantly put in a very strong position to the point where scum have the walls closing in on them and have to try and do something to save themselves and that something is almost always going to be noticed and scum read. Even with a fake guilty and a D1 mslynch here we still won his rather comfortably.

I acknowledge that setups aren't always designed around "what would happen if all N1 actions went well for town or what would happen if all N1 actions went badly" but I think the extremes should be at least considered and the setup amended to make sure it's not too drastically favoured for one side, potential for auto D2 is just..unfun and bad design.

Anyway that's enough about the setup for now, game was influenced by the setup but ultimately decided by reads thankfully in that all the cleared players were already town reads anyway.

[Regfan]

Normally against scum conceeding or giving up but I don't think Alisae would have won from here despite Eeve claiming to have been considering me. There was a lot I was holding back in this game that I was going to elaborate or touch on if I thought the chance of me getting mslynched was a real possibility, I've not been mslynched here in ~5 years and certainly doubt I'd have been in this game where I was very transparent with my thoughts. The game stagnated into a fairly painful situation for everyone involved and Alisae didn't have a way out of the position he was in and just ended it. Froggers vote history with Massive and his change on FF was always going to mean that slot was dying either today and if somehow not then certainly tomorrow.

Think the Mulch kill was a mistake, plausible that Mulch maintains the "Mastina wouldn't have PM'ed the slot if it was scum" logic which was pretty ?? if he lives which gives the slot more leeway than what iDannyboy did. Also think mafia not roleblocking GreyICE N2 was a mistake, it's a short-term gain for them in increasing the odds of getting the FF lynch but a long-term loss in that it provides town a clear if GreyICE plays it well (Which he did making sure to check town) and that clear limits scums options down the road.

[Regfan]

I still don't understand why Mastina would ask him to respond in PM when he could do mafia chat *sigh*

Not something you read into, ever. There's enough content and information in the game to form solid reads.

[Regfan]

@Mulch - Would recommend if you're not well versed in setup or role discussion to just mostly focus on pure scumhunting and just state your reads with reasons. Feel like instead of doing that you were just coming up with weird theories on what was happening and really limited the amount of impact or help you provided and you'd rotate between stepping back and not doing anything because you didn't want to hurt the town or putting forward a theory you'd not really thought through forward. I'd have liked to see some more posts like Post 96 later in the game based on the more important and stronger tells that had happened because I really liked the style of that post there and saw potential from you in it.

[Regfan]

I thought I was hiding myself well D1 and had amended a few things about my posting but it seems a few people worked me out pretty easily, I suck at this alt'ing thing obviously.

Regfan I want you in all my games ftr

Don't play here very often anymore and likely to take another short break. Would like to get in a game with sometime though!

[Regfan]

@iDannyBoy - I'll ditto GreyICE's comment, I think your analysis and reads are very solid but think you'll become an even better player if you interacted with other players a bit more, elaborate on reads, question reads, things like that really increase the odds of town winning.

@EeveeLution Army - I think you need to have more of a presence inside the game, you don't need to be the loudest person in the room or anything of that sort but I don't think Alisae was wrong in that it felt like you were asking questions for the sake of it / to have something to do at times. You'd be better of trying to walk people through your thought process and stating your reads a little more even if you weren't confident in them. I'll take a player that's wrong about their reads but has presented them and shown willingness to reanalyse over someone that I can't really tell where their heads at or not sure what they're doing any day of the week, think you have some potential, would like to see you try and work on that.

@Arona, can't offer too much advice given I thought you played your role fairly well in that you held back and made sure you weren't on the radar for being a night kill and your voting habits and reads were pretty good. Do think there needed to be a little bit more of a crumb of the targets before actually targeting them since if you targeted scum and died at some point not sure we'd have ever worked out who.

[Regfan]

@FF, man it was both enjoyable and super frustrating playing with you this game. I think had you not been 'guiltied' we'd have had a real blast because I think we both had each other as town after our conversation D1. I can understand where your frustration with the game was coming from in that being guiltied and pushed on as town is most certainly not a fun thing to happen and it's natural to suspect or interact with the person guiltying you in a combative manner. That said I really think you needed to step back and realise that some people were listening to you and that it was possible for you not to be lynched, your self hammer was a mistake because while you dying 'drops the focus from being on you' it also removes a mslynch that town may have needed down the line and it's plausible you could have been interaction cleared; in fact if massive gets lynched D3 there and it's revealed the last scum has to be a roleblocker then Massives treatment of you over Chickadee D2 pretty much clears you. Also think the whole "bet" type thing with GreyICE is something you'll need to avoid doing in future, it's not really in the spirit of the game. Would like to play with you again in hopefully a less unusual situation though!

[Regfan]

I feel like Mykonian figured out the issue inside that review thread and was mostly ignored.

Think I'd like "Even reviewers need to have 3 people inside their setup reviews" personally.