Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Dark Horse]

VOTE: Aristo

[Dark Horse]

VOTE: PersephoneSidekick

Sounds way too forced

[Dark Horse]

I actually think PS' second response to robb is scummier

Dude, it's RVS; why are you expecting me to make sense?

This sounds unusually defensive for this early in the game.

[Dark Horse]

What do you mean?

[Dark Horse]

Meh, if this is PS' first non newbie game I can understand her being self-conscious about being scumread. Not caring about people's read on you comes with confidence in your ability to not get lynched and new players are frequently not the biggest sources of confidence.

VOTE: TChill the massive sheeping is wack

[Dark Horse]

Ginngie's reason for the town read are really weak though. Monkey has a point there

[Dark Horse]

Eh, don't really think monkey's actions toward PS are that scummy. Pressuring the fuck out of one person to get town out of rvs is like the oldest trick in the book. The fact that he's now voting Tchill instead of persephone means that I don't really see how his approach to her is opportunistic.

More people should be voting tchilll though. Not only was his approach to PS's wagon wack but post #79 feels like he's trying to deflect pressure and escalate shit between monkey and korts

[Dark Horse]

Massive what made you think that the need for pressure on Persephone had passed?

[Dark Horse]

Until I get caught up completely. I do like the last half of this post and it makes me feel better about Robbnva.

You voted him after that post though. This feels like backtracking.

[Dark Horse]

Yeah his PS vote is being read into way too much. The RC example doesn't even feel similar because RC's reaction was completely different and way more defensive. Already trying to call a goon-pr combo this early is also really really dumb.

On the other hand

If you want to lynch me I'd even be ok with you saying "It's the type of top-level scum-scum interaction that makes it look like they're doing work."

What does this even mean?

Did you you just say I said you were dumb to scum read Korts when I wasn't even aware someone scum read Korts?

But there were people who had mentioned scumreads of korts. Literally the psot before your "who would be dumb enough..." talked about people scum reading korts.

Tchill's switch to gin is weak, I still think his reasoning for unvoting robb is bad too.

[Dark Horse]

That doesn't change the fact that it feels like you're reading way too deep into the vote.

[Dark Horse]

Kaboose's 147 is consistent with him making implications of scum!tchill but not actually going anywhere with it. I don't really buy is reasoning for keeping his vote on persephone. Overall not a good look.

[Dark Horse]

Kaboose's 147 is consistent with him making implications of scum!tchill but not actually going anywhere with it. I don't really buy is reasoning for keeping his vote on persephone. Overall not a good look.

I'm sorry you don't buy it, I haven't made it available for purchase yet.

What did you not like about persephone's responses?

Also korts godfather isn't a normal role.

[Dark Horse]

So kaboose you gonna get around to reading this thread soon?

[Dark Horse]

On ari's meta: I played with town!him in perfect blue and he similarily didn't care about the game at all.

[Dark Horse]

Eddie what makes you so certain that t chill and rob aren't partners?

[Dark Horse]

On ari's meta: I played with town!him in perfect blue and he similarily didn't care about the game at all.

Don't think he's at all similar here to his play there? He feels town in just his first few posts there and I don't feel anything at all from him here; do you have anything actually substantive to say about my read or are you just content shrugging it off because he didn't care in some other game you remember? I haven't even argued that he's scum here because of lack of caring; I think if you actually took the time to address my post you would probably realize that.

What? In perfect blue he was doing the same active lurking with fluffposts that he's doing here. Like I legit don't see how his posts in perfect blue feel more "real and natural" than his posts here. Reading 203 as scummy is a stretch. The rest of your post talks about scum!ari which I can't comment on because I have yet to play a game with him where he flipped scum.

Assembler what do you think of tchill?

[Dark Horse]

At this point it feels like robb and eddie are clogging up the thread more than anything else.

[Dark Horse]

Nancy what do you think of vecna?

I don't really get the opinion that t chill's wagon has been weak. Granted I might be biased but still.

I can definitely see the kotrs-monkey-tchill triangle.

Sunlit diamond's 386 feels weirdly placed now that I think about it.

Tchill are you actually gonna push monkey?

[Dark Horse]

VOTE: vecna

Tchill if you're telling the truth shoot assmbler tonight.

Hey Tchill ill make you a deal.

We lynch my target today, you help me convince everyone to sheep me, and if I fail to lynch scum with it, you shoot me tonight. Alright?

After last game you should know my instincts are pretty good when it comes to these things.

Assuming you're talking about monkey here you seem very very committed to a lynch that you said was a "minor feeling that something was up here"

Plus I don't buy the tone shift after the vig claim and tchill's vote.

[Dark Horse]

Then who? Monkey's the only other person you've voted

[Dark Horse]

UNVOTE:

[Dark Horse]

Vecna what caused your 180 on korts?

[Dark Horse]

You never explained this

What are you on about? Dark Horse didn't have an Eddie read. The two times he even mentions Eddie is to say that his argument with Robb is clogging up the thread, and once to ask him about his Tchill/Robb reads. So what am I contradicting exactly?

And what fascination? This is the first time I am mentioning your monkey vote. I have reconsidered that point, though. It was a sloppy ISO read on my part that led me to believe your vote didn't align with your suspicions.

[Dark Horse]

What? I only suspected PS at the very beginning. Pretty much when I started voting tchill I stopped thinking PS was scum.

Plus townreading someone because they agree with you, especially in a game like this where there aren't really people who stick out as obvtown, isn't really a foreign concept for town. I know I've done it in the past

[Dark Horse]

Like if anything it sounds like you're trying state things that you think will sound good and plausible, but if you look deeper they don't really hold up.

[Dark Horse]

Because he said he was a town pr that could prove his role and I was thinking about giving him a chance. Same thing with txhill

[Dark Horse]

Idk why people are saying that if tchill's scum then mafia must have some sort of other killing role. Couldn't he just be a serial killer?

[Dark Horse]

Sorry about the delay guys I finally got time.

Stuff based on last three pages:

Honestly the more I think about it vecna's weird actions toward tchill are kind of understandable from a pr perspective. I'm assuming being the main scumread of a claimed vig isn't going to put you in the best mood.

Monkey's claim is weird. Feels really out of place, plus "town pr role" is such a vague claim. Korts trying to blame other people with the "did you guys really run up another PR claim" also feels weird, considering it feels like monkey himself was the primary reason for him claiming, saying stuff like "nancy should I claim"

Vecna's massive vote is weird though, that's a total vanity wagon vote.

Korts talking about vecna's claim not being believable with the implosion is ringing alarm bells. I don't see why he wouldn't be accusing monkey of the same thing, except monkey has an even more unbelievable claim.

Though if eddie cane doesn't show up near the deadline gin has a really good point in #694

Don't like the way that monkey seems to switch his vote to whoever's accusing him.

gut town read on nancy.

Don't like the way monkey starts to doubt vecna being scum, seems like a kinda last minute thing if venca would flip town.

Sunlit what do you mean proved himself to you

In conclusion VOTE: monkey

[Dark Horse]

Monkey why do you keep asking nancy about everything?

[Dark Horse]

VOTE: assembler

[Dark Horse]

You talking about how you'd be fine lynching yourself over vecna felt weird. Like it felt like that was something you were saying because it was so close to the deadline that you getting lynched isn't something that would actually happen.

If eddie doesn't actually show up as we get closer to the deadline then I agree that his sentiment is scummy.

I disagree that grendel's attack on you is largely an attack on character. Maybe the apologizing thing, but I don't see how like you getting invested early in percy v robb and moving away from it is an attack on character.

[Dark Horse]

I think another thing to consider when it comes to the "no scum deadline extension" is that we might honestly have a deadline extension right now but RC's not around to post it yet.

[Dark Horse]

Sunlit why are you scummreading gin for "sticking to his vote"? He was voting assembler before he posted that.

[Dark Horse]

*before you posted that

[Dark Horse]

Wait what? I thought the whole point of what you were saying was that vecna's town because there's been no extension yet, while I'm saying that it's possible there's been an extension and RC just hasn't posted about it yet, therefore it's not something you should assume until RC posts.

[Dark Horse]

Ok now you have a point

[Dark Horse]

VOTE: Monkey

[Dark Horse]

A no lynch is better for scum than a town lynch though, especially because of how much assembler has been lynchbait so far. I wouldn't call him scum strictly because of the no lynch

[Dark Horse]

I mean I'm guessing the last minute wagon was due to the face that assembler has done so little that there wouldn't be that many people opposed to his lynch. It was pretty clearly a desperation wagon in an attempt to stop a no lynch after how split town was.

I already talked about why I think monkey's scum but basically the way he claimed feels off, the way he's been omgusing slots was wack, his last minute switch on vecna felt fake, and I really don't like the huge double standard korts had between monkey and vecna's claims.

Assembler's play feels more Vig bait.

[Dark Horse]

Goin I voted him yesterday because I wanted to avoid a no lynch. I feel like that's a why a decent amount of people voted him too

[Dark Horse]

T chill are you really going to attack someone for vote placement when you had been voting vecna at the end of the day?

[Dark Horse]

What makes you think that grendel wouldn't have done the same thing? Considering he hasn't posted anything since his last post in the thread it's possible he too wasn't around for the end of the day. Plus he had a solid amount of justification for his monkey vote

[Dark Horse]

Because there was likely scum on vecna's wagon

[Dark Horse]

I'm town. VOTE: Vecna

?

[Dark Horse]

Robb you should probably start reading because that's a horrible vote

[Dark Horse]

Quit being dense

[Dark Horse]

I really don't like the huge double standard korts had between monkey and vecna's claims.

I don't understand this argument. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Vecna claimed after a bunch of scummy shit, where he exploded all over the thread, threatened Tchill post-claim multiple times, desperately tried to lead the town away from his wagon, and constantly misrepresented any argument against him.

Then

he claimed, which to me looked like another clear diversion attempt after all the others had failed. It was a bogus claim, even if it turned out to be true.

monkey didn't explode like that, and although his claim was early, it was nearing deadline and his counterwagon was gaining steam. Admittedly, at that point I was on limited access and just trying to get a Vecna lynch to happen, so I wasn't reading thoroughly - but I don't remember any blatant scumminess from monkey before the claim.

I have a bunch of things to do in the following days, so the reread isn't coming before the weekend. Maybe I just missed something.

See korts here’s the thing. I know the vecna’s initial reactions to tchill’s claim were wack, I was scumreading him for them too. However, once he claimed Jailkeeper, I paused for a second. I then looked back at his actions from the viewpoint of a jailkeeper, and things started making sense. Like imagine if you were a jailkeeper and the claimed vig/VI had you as your top scumread. And of course he’s going to avoid full claiming as much as possible because as soon as he claim’s he’s dead. Even though I can’t speak for everyone else in the thread about these specifics, I got the vibe that most people had at least gone “wait a sec..” after vecna claimed, and became hesitant to lynch him.

You did the opposite. It seemed like instead of causing you to back down, you just started gunning for his lynch even harder, which is mad scummy. Even now, you’re trying to dismiss being wrong by saying it was a “bogus claim.”

In addition, Go back and read where monkey claimed, it’s a mess of multiposts and conflicting actions before claiming that he’s simply a pr. It’s a weak claim, and importantly has a lot of similarities with vecna’s initial claim. Regardless of what you thought of monkey before that, I feel like claiming in a very similar manner to your top scum read is something that should at least draw

some

attention from you. Rather, you try to blame other people for “forcing monkey to claim,” (despite the fact that monkey claimed largely of his own volition) and try to tell people to ignore monkey and keep focusing on vecna. It doesn’t feel like an attempt at game solving at all.

VOTE: Monkey

I think the statement "same exact situation" tells me you haven't been reading. Make that move right now.

Same exact situation was hyperbole, but both of you claimed early, close to the deadline, mostly of your own will, and initially claimed “Town PR.” They’re very similar claims.

[Dark Horse]

Robb you should probably start reading because that's a horrible vote

Tell me why it's a horrible vote and who we should be lynching instead.

You only get one shot. Make it count.

Spoiler: Why monkey is scum

I can provide quotes if you guys want

Main Reasons
Weird OMGUSes
Only seriously pursuing lynchbait
Wack last-minute vecna flip flop
Wack interactions with korts

OMGUS:
Especially toward the end of the day monkey seem to target his push toward whoever was scumreading him. First you’ve got his “oh you’re scum aren’t suspicion toward sunlight,” then he’s willing to vote eddie for two posts of that including being willing to vote monkey (which he never follows up on), before switching to vecna, etc etc. In fact, if you go back, the only votes he had before all this was persephone (early vote) and tchill. Now I know you guys are probably thinking “DH, what makes you think he isn’t just noobtown? Noobtown also omgus.” The answer is because there’s one person who he didn’t OMGUS yesterday: Korts. Considering how reactionary he got I find it hard to believe he wouldn’t scumread korts for pushing him early in the day, considering mokney was OMGUSing people for far less near the end of the day.

Mostly targeting lynchbait:
For here I’m talking about monkey’s pushes before he started suspecting SD (his stuff after that I’d say is more reflective on the OMGUS point) .Excluding his early push on persephone, Monkey spent most of D1 pursuing assembler and tchill who seem to be prime lynchbait and easy targets. Hell, at one point basically his only reads were a townread on nancy and scumreads on those two. Though he’d ask a lot of questions, he really doesn’t seem content with actually following through and gamesolve. Like in post #123, he directs a bunch of questions towards massive, and says that one of his posts looks “LAMIST as fuck.” But then he doesn’t talk about this stuff for the rest of the day. Same with him saying that rob’s story could have been AtE. He’d drop slight jabs at people but at the end of the day only seemed content with pushing lynchbait, up until he started omgus-ing people

Vecna flip-flop:
I’ve talked about this before, but his reasoning for suddenly townreading vecna feels fake. Like at that point we didn’t even know for sure that we didn’t have a deadline extension, and considering that his entire 180 hinged on us not having a deadline extension, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn’t at least wait until something that confirmed we didn’t have a deadline extension before jumping the gun. The fact that he was so willing to push this anyways hints at two things: Either he was scum who figured that since him or none of his scumbuds had passed for a deadline extension, it’s would be very unlikely there’s a deadline extension; Or he could have been using the 180 because he figured it woudn’t be a vecna lynch and he didn’t want to still be scumreading vecna when he died and flipped town. Actually, it could very well be both.

Werid interactions with korts:
Mostly based on their initial clash early D1, in addition to other stuff I’ve talked about. I dislike how quickly monkey tries to appeal to korts to lynch Tchill, but I REALLY don’t like how korts then immediately backs off. He claims that he was “more interested in what others have to say” but he doesn’t really follow up anywhere else. He later answers some questions and goes “this is almost making me rethink my read on you,”but once again korts doesn’t follow up on it. Feels like distancing

Spoiler: Why I think eddie isn't the best push

Well first off it seems largely a push on PS, it seems like your only reason for scumreading eddie himself is the shitposts when he first replaced in.

So talking about PS, first and foremost I think you misinterpreted her RVS post. Like the we must have blood part makes it definitely seem more like a joke than an actual “I’m legit voting you because you haven’t voted someone.”

Second, in addition to her initial post, I feel like there was a major tone miscommunicating between both of you that caused the situation to escalate. Like part of your argument is that PS lied about what you said, but that really feels more like PS misinterpreting the tone of your posts more than anything else. Like I could see how someone could see your question as “Defensive.” That’s not what I’d think, but I can see why a person would think that. Like I can see why she’d think about questioning you, much in the same way you questioned her. You guys were literally arguing over different definitions of defensive. Like from what I understand PS is a newer player, so I’m not that surprised that she’d have a different tone from other people on this site. And instead of thinking about tone differences between players you scumread her for it.

I think this got kinda rambly but bottom line is I think your read on persephone came from more of a misunderstanding of tone rather than anything actually scummy.

As for why I think Tchill’s vote is horrible, it’s because the dude switched his vote simply because eddie said he’d get back to the thread later. Seriously tchill?

[Dark Horse]

Tchill wagon is wack. If he was scum I see no reason for him to not use the excuse that vecna jailed him. Hell it was brought up in the thread right before he posted so I doubt he forgot about it. The only reason I can think of for going with "I deliberately didn't kill" is because that's legitimately what he did, which is more dumb than anything scummy.

[Dark Horse]

Grendel by claiming early I'm assuming korts means "Claimed before he was L-1 or so"

[Dark Horse]

He said he was a "town pr"

[Dark Horse]

Like, honestly, why would Mafia kill you if you actually ARE town? You're too terrified to actually shoot. You're just a named townie.

This feels ridiuculously forced. Sounds a lot like trying to preemptiveley justify scum leaving tchill alive for reasons other than "mislynch bait"

[Dark Horse]

vla until 25th

Your argument appears to be "Tchill more likely bad town than scum." What have you seen from Tchill to make you think that my statement could be untrue?

What? There's a huge difference between "tchill is bad town" and "t chill won't shoot anyone in the future. I'd expect everyone tellibg him what he did last night was stupid would prevent him from doing the same thin again

[Dark Horse]

Yeah kort's push is mad weak. "Game related votes aren't rvs" is definitley a common school of rvs thought which is something that the push seems to conveniently ignore.

Massive's most recent post is also terrible Korts/monkey/massive eskeddit

[Dark Horse]

Robb vs eddie continyes to be a waste of time and is leading town away from people who are actually scummy. Both of you cut it. Robb quit trying to justify yourself with the same "B-b-but I've caught scum!" Eddie quit claiming that we need to get robb lynched just because he's tunneling you

[Dark Horse]

Robb I've dealt with many people who think they're god's gift to mafia. It never helps.

[Dark Horse]

I just try to lynch scummy people. I don't know if they are scum or town.

Then don't try and justify and justify your play with "I've caught two dcum" because there's always a chance you're wrong

[Dark Horse]

Gamma that's the wrong approach. There are like 4 people that should be lynched above eddie today

[Dark Horse]

Robb I don't know why you pretended to have an epiphany about your play midway through D1 if you're just going to do the exact same thing the next day

[Dark Horse]

Haven't read previous pages but korts I'm saying that monkey (who you think has been on good behavior), massive (who you say is proactive) and you are scum, and I've never advocated for an assembler lynch outside of being super close to the deadline. How am I making the most sense from your pov? Your reads seem very different

[Dark Horse]

Monkey I feel like I might've missed where you said this but what are your reason for scumreading eddie that don't involve robb?

[Dark Horse]

I'll post some more later. Basically I still think it's kort/monkey/massive and I'd be down with any of those 3 lynches as the day ends, with maybe an assembler one of it looks like itlll be a no lynch otherwise. I doubt eddie's scum

[Dark Horse]

Monkey's attack on nancy feels way too muhc like him following math's initial read and him trying to stir the pot between nancy and math. Lynch him already.

[Dark Horse]

Even though I think titus is gonna flip town I don't think how wuick the wagon formed was paricularily scummy. Nobody wants a repeat of esterday

[Dark Horse]

Like seriously anyone who read the end of yesterday would kniw how badly things can turn out if we wait too long. I think drixx is just trying to raise suspicions of the people on tge wagon

[Dark Horse]

So Gamma , DarkHorse...

Please continue scum claiming by defending Monkey.

That hammer by Monkey was horrible.

Since when have I been defending monkey?

[Dark Horse]

I didn't target tchill.

Kinda busy now, will do more when I have the time

[Dark Horse]

I didn't target tchill.