Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Aristophanes]

Oh man, Pagetop Stolen!

[Aristophanes]

nancy (1): Aristophanes

@RC
Uhh...when did I do that exactly??

[humaneatingmonkey]

Nah. Ari and I have history. I'm also no stranger to his friendship with nancy.

Uhh, okay? None of that is important to me at all. I am not genuinely pursuing the Ari angle. I am simply baffled that you think RVS is for jokes.

~~~~

What do I think of your thoughts on Persephone? I thought I made myself clear. I think your "reason" argument is bullshit. I don't think you have anything else, other than a vague accusation of "fakeness."

Well, yeah. That's all I have right now. That's the reason I'm voting. I think Percy's been faking it. See my ISO. And I think it's pretty legitimate.

"None of that is important to me at all." Yeah it is. So why include the Ari part? You said it irked you because I didn't use the same logic to Ari. Now I just debunked your claim that I'm selective in my logic and therefore not opportunistic, just legitimately spotting scummy behavior.

It's you who have nothing now. So AMA.

Which is not to say that I don't think Persephone isn't suspcious independent of your arguments. Her play has been pretty poor so far - but yours can be characterized more specifically as opportunistic.

So how do you read Persephone's ISO then? What do you not agree on me about?

monkey is stirring shit and openly challenging townreads on himself, like what the hell, dude?

People quick to townread over something NAI is scummy for me. It means they have no paranoia and it means that they already know who's flipping town. I'm not "stirring shit". Although thanks for ruining this because I will never know how Ginngie will react.

What would I gain as scum by pushing Percy's wagon right now if not to scumhunt and to learn from her reactions? What would I gain as scum by openly questioning townreads people have on me this early? You don't call people scum just because you disagree with them.

Nice try. Maybe join me in VOTE: TChill is better use of your time not making weak arguments like this and believing you actually solved the game.

Percy's starting to look fine now, I guess. But still looking like she's pandering. I'll give distance and watch her try to scumhunt.

[RadiantCowbells]

nancy (1): Aristophanes

@RC
Uhh...when did I do that exactly??

shh

[Tchill13]

Hey monkey why exactly did you vote me there instead of korts?

[Korts]

Nice try. Maybe join me in VOTE: TChill is better use of your time not making weak arguments like this and believing you actually solved the game.

Nah I'm good for now. I'm more interested to hear what others think than your defense or deflection.

[Tchill13]

So monkey says Percy has been "faking" it then throws shade at korts for believing he's game solving then monkey votes me... And he does this all in the same post?

[nancy]

@nancy - I don't have anything to add atm so I am confused as to why you are waiting for me.

Why are you scumreading Persephone, basically. Don't really get the sense that you've been trying to sort her here and I feel like you should be a little more concerned with parsing her behavior beyond just saying that she doesn't make sense; it's only page 1 but if you think that she should have a legitimate reason for RVS voting you I think that it's pretty reasonable that you should also probably have a reason for your read; I haven't seen any.

Town.

Sounds scummy as if instigating a fight, but townAF for honesty

Don't think this is particularly good reasoning for a townread; maybe he wouldn't be that brazen as scum or maybe he just didn't realize that saying that was actually scummy, either way I'm not sure I'd be comfortable townreading someone for just being honest. I am inclined to agree though that the tone feels town here; probably a little more hesitant about it given our last game where he came out with stuff like this on more than one occasion and was mostly written off but he was fairly obvscum by the end of it so I'm honestly not too worried at this point.

Uhh yeah but the moment you defend an RVS vote with "lol chill it's just an RVS vote" you invalidate the entire purpose of RVS.

Pretty much agree with this; don't think Persephone's response was a very good one although I probably need to see more from her to figure out what relevance that has to her alignment; think there's a bit of a disconnect there that only really becomes apparent when you look at the post from the perspective of someone genuinely trying to get out of RVS - she seems focused on the logic within her post of voting for blood and doesn't really approach Robbnva in the context of pushing the gamestate or trying to sort him so much as just her position being justified (which I think is beside the point).

Basically I voted for the first stupid reason I could think of because it seemed better than literally no reason. Robbnva then argued for some reason so I decided I could either awkwardly apologize or keep pushing and see if his reaction would be useful. Then people started voting me and so I realized I was inadvertently helping us out of RVS after all.

Was his reaction useful, then? Not really sure how to parse whether this is ad-hoc from you or whether you were legitimately thinking that at the time; leaving RVS is fine but why not just respond to him in a genuine way if that's what you're trying to achieve rather than deliberately acting scummy as a reaction test?

VOTE: Robbnva

Well there's no need to be condescending.

Am presuming you don't actually think that condescension is a scumtell; why do you scumread Robbnva?

[nancy]

That was meant as a flippant attack rather than a flippant defense actually. Like "why are you being so defensive about an RVS" was roughly the intended meaning. Tone is really hard in text. It wasn't a super calculated move beyond just wanting to keep poking at the little micro-conflict in the hopes that it would produce something useful to me or (more realistically) more experienced people than me. I made myself resist the urge to actually justify myself until morning because defusing the conflict early would waste the opportunity to use it to end RVS.

Ultimately, I consider my approach vindicated by the fact that it produced a wagon to talk about, even if it's on me. Unless I actually get lynched it will totally have been worth it.

This feels a little ad-hoc from you and I'm not really sure why you would think that not responding to someone would be more likely to get you or anyone out of RVS? If you're genuinely wanting the gamestate to progress I feel like the automatic response would be to produce content that will actually help that happen and not to just wait until morning in the hopes that discussion is made; you're right that the way things unfolded pushed the game out of RVS but it's pretty easy to look back and say that your motives were pure after the fact when there's no meaningful indication that what happened was in fact what you were intending; I find it a little difficult to believe that you were intending for yourself to get scumread and wagoned.

Is it considered actively better to vote for a blatant joke reason in RVS than for a reason that is "real" but blatantly insufficient, and if so, why? Real question; it's my first non-newbie game.

Wouldn't say so; Robbnva's approach overall seems a little legalistic to me and I'm not entirely sure where he's coming from to be honest; I don't really do RVS much anymore but voting someone for GRC is pretty typical in my experience - Robb's is different I guess.

monkey is stirring shit and openly challenging townreads on himself, like what the hell, dude?

Not sure I agree that challenging townreads on yourself is scummy; it's probably ultimately null although I can see how you might be reading his prod at Ginngie that way; if monkey is scum I'd expect him to want to fake paranoia about being townread so abruptly, but I think it basically makes just as much sense if he's town - Gin's townread comes from one post and depending on how strongly Gin expresses her read there I wouldn't exactly feel comfortable about it coming from a player I had no experience with. (And not that I even know how to read her really but I feel like blurting out why she thinks someone is town this early makes more sense if she's town.) Agree that his reasoning for scumreading Persephone doesn't seem particularly good but I think it's a pretty understandable position overall; the idea that scum are going to make fake-sounding posts doesn't feel unbelieveable to me in any special way as something that monkey might believe as town; I think your concern there is pretty fair even if it's not something I really agree with at this point.

nancy is a great player and a friend, so of course I came to the rescue

<3

[humaneatingmonkey]

Hi. I need to finish some work-related things. Mafia took too much of my time this weekend. Gonna need to excuse myself until 28 hours from now.

Mod take note.

[Dark Horse]

Eh, don't really think monkey's actions toward PS are that scummy. Pressuring the fuck out of one person to get town out of rvs is like the oldest trick in the book. The fact that he's now voting Tchill instead of persephone means that I don't really see how his approach to her is opportunistic.

More people should be voting tchilll though. Not only was his approach to PS's wagon wack but post #79 feels like he's trying to deflect pressure and escalate shit between monkey and korts

[Kaboose]

posting on mobile. Will catch up tonight

[Tchill13]

Well dark horse I was trying to understand why monkey was throwing shade this way and that way but voting me instead.

[Korts]

Uhh because he has an explicit case against you? As opposed to the shaky foundation he laid out for a Persephone vote, and his disapproval of my overconfident ways, he has caught you in a clear contradiction that you have yet to even try explaining away. Here, I'll quote him for you:

Tchill's vote switch sucked.

[...]

VOTE: TChill

VOTE: PersephoneSidekick

Just helping the wagon along.

Honestly I feel like the reason for the wagon building on them right now is pretty stupid.

VOTE: robbnva

????????

Who's them TChill? Percy and Robb? So why cast your vote there? And for what reason?

First, you blatantly jump on Percy's bandwagon, then six posts later, you are lamenting the stupidity of the wagon, and hop on the opposing one without any reasoning whatsoever. Since then, you have posted three separate times to question the monkey's vote on you, and have not commented on anyone else. You do not seem to have tried to make any contribution to this game whatsoever, and I agree with monkey that your activity is raising red flags.

So let me give you an opportunity to contribute. Answer a couple questions. What did you hope to achieve by jumping on Percy's wagon? What specific moment in the Percy/Robb spat prompted your change of heart? What general conclusions do you draw from the arguments that have played out so far?

---

Hi Ari! I have the same question for you - what's your take here so far?

[Korts]

I forgot -

VOTE: Tchill

[massive]

So monkey says Percy has been "faking" it then throws shade at korts for believing he's game solving then monkey votes me... And he does this all in the same post?

I also don't like the sheep and Tchill's shade-throwing game needs as much work as his choice in basketball teams.

Am presuming you don't actually think that condescension is a scumtell; why do you scumread Robbnva?

I was reminded that Robb's original reason for voting Persephone was pretty bad, and the need for a wagon to put pressure on Persephone had passed.

Also going to vote Tchill so let's have one of them vote counts.

[PersephoneSidekick]

I think I still haven't done a good job explaining my thought process for the stuff that got me wagonned but it's not really that important so I'm just going to let it go.

I buy that Tchill's vote switch could have been a slip. Scum motivation: just trying to lynch somebody and forgetting your previous positions (less than two hours later!) because you don't really mean them. Town motivation: changing your mind as you see things without worrying about seeming consistent because you only care about finding the answer. Being willing to call your own actions scummy if you think you're part of a scummy wagon, because even though you know you're town you recognize you did something scummy and are willing to point that out to make progress. Conclusion: kind of shockingly sloppy as scum but slips happen. But if he can explain their switch to my satisfaction, I'd call it actively towny.

Bleh I have too many townreads. I actually kind of scumread Korts on tone/structure which is unfortunate because he's also the most helpful person. But like he's

aggressively

helpful? Basically he reminds me of the "scumhunting" I did as scum in my last game. Jumping in early and responding to everything, trying to have lots of things to say when there doesn't exist much to say yet. I could vanity wagon him for it but I don't have that kind of confidence. I think I'll VOTE: Tchill because I really do want to force them to explain themself.

[Dark Horse]

Massive what made you think that the need for pressure on Persephone had passed?

[massive]

I was ok with 42-44.

[RadiantCowbells]

Draynth is replaced by Sunlight Diamond! Please welcome them!

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Robbnva

Well there's no need to be condescending.

Why do you think being condescending is alignment indicative? How is this a valid case to make? This was your third post in the game and third different vote. Did you have a reason to quit liking the Perse wagon for this?

[Kaboose]

VOTE: PersephoneSidekick

Just helping the wagon along.

I didn't argue anything actually. I asked you a simple question.

You chose to use something game related to vote me, asking you to explain your vote is perfectly acceptable response.

you claim it was rvs, but according to my definition of rvs, it wasn't.

Also I don't really buy the whole "see if his reaction would be useful" because you have to have a familiarity with me to know how I would react as town and scum, and you don't.

my apologies for calling you he, I have issues with pronouns all the time. I will try not to make that mistake again.

There hasn't been enough from you to determine if you are scum or town yet, so I won't put you at L-1 but you are definitely on my radar. Let's see if your play improves.

Honestly I feel like the reason for the wagon building on them right now is pretty stupid.

VOTE: robbnva

You should help me understand your thought process too. In 41 you help it along.. In 45 you think it's stupid and you just vote rob? No reason? Why are you calling your own vote stupid?

[Kaboose]

Oh sorry not 45 I mean 47*

[Tchill13]

Ok so number one I voted Percy's wagon to help the wagon along and get the game going. I switched to Robb because it seemed like he was fake scumhunting. Percy's play was a rvs play and Robb was trying to read into it too much and get some town cred from my perspective. As far as arguments altogether give me a moment to read over them. I do apologize for my lack of content up to this point.

[Kaboose]

I didn't argue anything actually. I asked you a simple question.

You chose to use something game related to vote me, asking you to explain your vote is perfectly acceptable response.

you claim it was rvs, but according to my definition of rvs, it wasn't.

Also I don't really buy the whole "see if his reaction would be useful" because you have to have a familiarity with me to know how I would react as town and scum, and you don't.

my apologies for calling you he, I have issues with pronouns all the time. I will try not to make that mistake again.

There hasn't been enough from you to determine if you are scum or town yet, so I won't put you at L-1 but you are definitely on my radar. Let's see if your play improves.

I don't care what your "definition" of RVS is. And the reaction test isn't just for my benefit; 11 other people will be able to read everything we say. I mean what else is there to do interpret each other's reactions to things, this early?

Do you mean it's too early to do these things or you're suggesting that's all we really have to do this early in the game?