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mhsmith0
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Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:07 pm

If you like, you can amuse yourself by reading this postgame about a much, MUCH, MUCH worse town than this one :P (my mega IC post continues to grow :P )

Spoiler: Game review of a horrible town performance, by the mod (CTR)
This one is less of an explicit learning opportunity and more just a really interesting summary of a really badly played game.
Setup: game is modeled after the Gunpowder Treason and Plot game: Town is royalists (almost all Protestant), mafia is the group of four Catholic conspirators (win con to reach parity or kill the king and prince), and there’s a 3p Catholic priest (Father Garnet) who needs to keep Catholics alive to win (and therefore was built to scumside – he can also investigate peoples’ religion every night so he can protect his flock during the day).
Other notes:
ASUdevil replaced Nimbd1
Zoomzip was a town-aligned lyncher whose personal wincon was to find and lynch Niakan’s role and subsequently win with the town. His main ability was to jail and torture players; targeting Niakan on night 1 removed Niakan’s bulletproof (making him susceptible to the night kill)
HPW was Francis Tresham, who is believed to have been the source of the infamous Mounteagle Letter that betrayed the conspiracy. He needed to deliver the letter to William Parker (by game design this enabled a powerful town ability), and then win with the mafia anyway.
Colonel Thomas Rainsborough wrote:Ok I simply won't hear anyone say anyone other than Niakan as MVP. He almost single-handedly won it for the mafia and only Vindictus (who led his troops calmly) - and even then very late in the game - worked out what Niakan was doing even though he kept telling them in thread what he was doing...

Things of note in the game for me:

d1
Bwlvychpoints out that Nimb's vote on Pez is very 'off'. It is - you lynch him for a good scum catch. Crunkus warns that mafia will lynch the lurker of their choice. They do. No one calls Asudevil on a shameful volte-face at d1 end to save jeanphi. This is a pattern - day after day the mafia take all sorts of positions all day and then vote en masse in a completely shameless way that is completely contradictory to anything they have argued in thread and are never held to account.

HPW - is wandering around the thread mentioning William Parker, Lord Mounteagle is a loyal Catholic and likely in the game and mentioning this as often as he dare - while also asking for religion reveal to the complete bemusement of his team. Zander as far as I can tell never notices. I am not sure he even knows he is William Parker! He certainly never works out the event he is waiting for is the Mounteagle letter. Basic research would show it is likely Tresham who will send it to him. Zander might have caught HPW just on that

Niakan equally shamelessly declares that Bwlvychis town at day end and thus must be the Prince but votes in a way that in effect votes to lynch Bwlvych- is not held to account for this!

d2
Niakan thinks ATEis mafia hence his stunt. He'll explain what he hoped would happen. Constantine coughs up 2 full roles for no reason. ZZ does his for no real reason. This allows Niakan to out himself since he has been tortured he has lost his BP and now he fears night kill so he goes for it and just runs amok. He needs to let the mafia know he is not royal and so they should not kill him. How ZZ does not lynch him I will never know. Why Kianand ZZ would literally vote on anyone but Niakan is beyond me. Niakan outs a role that is the enemy of the Protestant state. RL he would be killed just for being in England in 1605 and yet suddenly he is Mr Townie for the last 12 hours of the game day even though he admits he is not town! How an un-cced Coke or Cecil is a better lynch than him after lying and then lurking for 48 hours is a mystery. Constantine says all this and is almost universally mocked and belittled - this carries on into d3.

n2
Zander kills ZZ in effect. Niakan can see Asudevil is mafia and investigates him. Finds him Catholic. Will later lie in thread as a signal to Asudevil that he is on his team. Whatever Asudevil says he totally misses his chance and does say he is Catholic. He can just about fudge he didn't, but....BS

Later on when Asudevil then simply accuses Niakan of lying and wants to force a dipole, Niakan with real feeling tells Asudevil he is a moron who deserves to die. He then goes back to role and tap dances to try and save himself and Asudevil. Extra-ordinary really.

d3
The most interesting day by miles. Go re-read. The mafia (via Vindictus) and Niakan are in open-negotiation. The latter is trying to educate the mafia as to what is going on. He basically negotiates the lynch of Constantine because he believes the latter is ZZ's role given his dogged insistence of Conto lynching the Jesuit. In this day, he tells the town that Vindictus is scum and then manages to wheel things around to get a townie lynched. This is his way of signalling to the mafia that he knows that Asudevil and Vindictus are scum but won't lynch them. Vindictus works it out eventually. It had also thought VIAP was scum (I think it was this day) so tries his claim Garnet stunt. When VIAP declines he assumes VIAP is town as a mafia would have grabbed the fake claim. He is right about VIAP, but he is over-estimating both VIAP and the scum team.

n3
Ungraciously in the extreme Vindictus decides he doesn't need that wildcard given how shit the town is and tries to kill Niakan. Unbelievably, bkbkbkdeploys his ability that night and thus a townie is killed instead of a mafia nightkilling what is - in effect - one of their own. This is the final nail in the town's coffin

d4
At this point it is all over really. Niakan has investigated Vindictus and knows he is Catholic. Again he lies to say Vindiis Protestant to underscore his signalling to the mafia, but Asudevil continues to behave in ways that ought to get him lynched but Niakan tap-dances some more and half the town are asleep anyway. If VIAP was alone with the 4 mafia he'd lynch himself. Zander doesn't play. WUBbelieves Asudevil. Bobtoo. Another shameless late switch to kill the person they want in the face of an indifferent town.

I think seriously about calling the game, but decide I have to play on to see if Niakan can win since his win is in the mafia's hands if they kill him, but he can also save himself by getting locked in the Tower. Also, HPW gets his win n4.

Note how HPW's and Vindictus's roles interact. Vindi is designed to be the assassin leaving HPW free to track so that he can try and delvier the letter, but he actually has nothing to track since almost no one but mafia are out and about. I have some fun with that, but it was meant to raise scum suspicions about Tresham. They don't except...

Note that jeanphi is a big scaredy cat who flinches at even one vote and becomes convinced that HPW is a spy for the way he is voting on jeanphi. Asudevil joins in. Vindi keeps them calm

Asudevil is being fed results by HPW for his fake claim, but messes them up and so stumbles into the needless dipole with his own teammate (in effect) - Niakan (see above) The town has such a paucity of resources at that point though that it doesn't matter.

Lots of other stuff that I have no doubt forgotten, but others talking will remind me...


Colonel Thomas Rainsborough wrote:Another piece of Mechanics: The Mounteagle Letter

Obviously HPW had to deliver this letter to zander/Clindsey in order to win. As soon as it was delivered Mounteagle would be vanilla. So the sooner it was delivered the less powerful it would be whereas the later it was delivered the more info there would be but it might all be too late to save the town (as was the case here). Anyway, Clindsey got 4 nights of watch/track information. He wasn't believed of course even though he was town confirmed by GM (see below). Not even he noticed this or understood that the trigger event was the Mounteagle letter - I mean, how hard is it to work that out especially after it has jsut been delivered? To me it is clear from his role PM what the trigger event is likely to be. Anyway, this mechanic was meant to simulate the betrayal of the conspiracy as per history.

What was incredibly powerful about it is a GM message confirming that it was delivered into loyalist hands - no one noticed that this confirmed Clindsey as town, but then by that stage nothing suprised me about this town or its players - not that the town could win at that point.

Also Niakan realised rather late in the day that if he could get himself 'lynched' on d5 he would actually be taken to the Tower of London and thus secure from the mafia night kill! this would mean he couldn't lose as long as the mafia killed VIAP or any other loyal subject. This explains why he wanted to be lynched on d5

Overall Game Design
It was actually incredibly simple, but the town managed to completely get the worst of all worlds in the way it thought about the game

This was an incredibly accurate - and if I might say so elegant - portrayal of the Gunpowder Plot right up the Mounteagle letter. As I said, my plan was to educate. I hope some folks learnt something. Ok, I removed Charles I (I am a Colonel of the New Model Army you know and a Leveller at that) plus Gunpowder cannot actually be put on a timer or trip wire in 1605! Also, the plot wasn't..well.. a mafia game but apart from that...

This means if every townie name claimed the mafia would be in big trouble. Even if their role names were plausible minor players lots of folks would be confirmed town as surely in the game - the King, Prince of Wales, Cecil, Mounteagle, Walsh, Bromley - these roles 'had' to be in the game. So to stop this from happening the game was a protect the King game. That was what was designed to prevent the town role revealing. It was essential it kept quiet.

also the mafia were equally bemusing to me. How many times can you tell someone to read their role PMs carefully. Everyone had a fake claim ready for them to use in it. Did any of them notice? Not a bit of it.

Anyway, instead the town did this:
1) On d1 it lynched the Prince and since he was pardoned by the King that narrowed down who the King must be
2) The it blabbed half it's roles on d2 making in incredibly easy for the mafia to locate King James
This meant the town might as well grab the advantages of name claiming since it had thrown away any pretence of actually keeping the King hidden. bkbkbk's role gave them one guaranteed protection of a royal. And Zoomzip if he worked smartly could save 2 royals 100% guaranteed over the game by 'torturing them'

But instead...

3) The town then for reasons known only to itself thought roles like Cecil or Coke could be scum and lynched practically every townie that ever made a role claim
4) On the flipside the town never forced the mafia to name claim. Even on the final day no one was asking Catesby or Percy to explain who they were.

Circle of Trust
So, I gave the town an incredible asset - a circle of trust. Ok, it could be broken by assassination of Cecil and it was severely restricted in its ability to communicate but it meant that quickly 3 players would be able to establish via some simple codes that they were all town. That is huge. What really happened?

VIAP tries to lynch Cecil on d2 even though he knows that ATE knows that VIAP is King because they had already exchanged codes in thread. So the gig is already up if ATE is scum but nevermind. Night 2 he sends ATE misinformation designed to confuse him and then never sends another PM
Constantine knows ATE is Cecil and thus must be town, but outs both roles and then is found scummy for it or something. VIAP, the King is convinced that Waad is scum - as if Cecil writing to the Lt of the Tower is writing to Fawkes or something.
Constantine as he goes down to die is accusing ATE.

I mean on the final day VIAP is faced with himself, Clindsey who must be Mounteagle and is GM confirmed town, ATE who is Cecil and one other. He has a 5 in 6 chance to hit a non-townie and is still voting on a townie (not that it mattered at that point)

Lyncher Role - Bromley and the d2 town suicide
With the very best of intentions this game was unbalanced when Zoomzip ignored his VC and did not vote to lynch Niakan on d2. Niakan was convinced that Constantine was the lyncher role given his dogged pursuit on Niakan.

Constantine made one of the biggest blunders to sabotage this town when he outed himself and ATE’s roles unnecessarily in response to Niakan's d2 lie about finding ATE guilty. However, he was absolutely right about Niakan d2 and the need to lynch him based on Niakan's behaviours. Instead he was patronised and marginalised in thread. And pointing out to him that Niakan was independent is more of the same. If one examines what Niakan was doing you will see that he was the best scum hunter in the game - problem was he was hunting them so he could 'negotiate' in thread with them and protect them at all costs since they were his 'flock' (more on this later)

The following is what I wrote to ZZ after he exploded n2:
*sighs* Oh well, what can I say...there were a couple of infamous incidents of players (allegedly) not playing to their win conditions in Rolan's games I think and so rules at that time began to include a rule of "play to your win conditions" or I will Mod-kill you. These incidents caused some anger amongst GMs and players alike as the games were unbalanced/subverted as a result.

Play to your win conditions is so basic, so fundamental - it is essential to the balance of any game design

Fortunately, these incidents passed and this rule had gone back to the redundancy I always imagined it to be. I thought it redundant here. Seemingly not.

By giving you that win condition I have tried to give you the hard-wired motive to prioritise something potentially town essential to keep Niakan in check.

What follows is essentially my GM AAR as the town is surely doomed.

Niakan is certainly playing to his win conditions and is self-evidently trying to destroy the town as quickly as possible by outing every role he can manage to help the mafia kill royalty. While also outing his role to make sure they don't kill him. Even not prioritsing your 'personal' VC I don't see how it turned into doing the opposite of the other half. How is lynching a double voting townie or Robert Cecil better than killing a confirmed no-town multiple-liar destructive behaviour Jesuit priest? Niakan is pulling exactly the same trick he tried in Crunkus's recent game when he comes in at day end to try and make the town his bitch. Creating an environment of panic and confusion after lurking for the rest of the game day. How is that trick still working? Lynch the bastard.

The town knows Niakan is not town. Jesuit priests may not have been directly involved in this plot but they are enemies of the state. How likely are his claims that his non-town VCs are actually aligned with town VCs as he claims? If they were town aligned he'd be...town aligned and not be an enemy of the state. You personally know he is lying as he claims more than one priest in the game. Your PM tells you there is only 1. Why is he lying? Not to help the town clearly. How is his previous lie about his cop result therefore a pro-town scum trap? It cannot be. He isn't town and his claimed VCs have nothing to do with such a trick. In fact, quite the contrary since he needs to survive and he has totally exposed himself. So why is he lying?

So irrespective of all this I cannot understand how the town imagines the combination of Niakan not being town and his behaviour means he should not be lynched? Incredibly not a single person comments on him not being town and it is my belief that most if not all those living still think he has claimed town. He certainly went back to calling himself loyal when no one noticed. You still put him in Blue for example when he admits to being green.

(smith note: on playdip blue is town, green is used for 3p)
He claims his VC is for a loyal Catholic to live? What are the odds that a Catholic priest distinguishes between loyal and disloyal Catholics? His job is to look after Catholics. That's why he is hiding underground and risking his life literally every day he remains in England. He can therefore win with town or scum, but he needs catholics to live. The mafia killed a loyal catholic n1. He knows that the faction 'richest' in Catholics are the scum so if he can help them win quickly he can win. He tells a lie and disappears for 48 hours (or whatever) which is incredibly anti-town and what does the town do in a protect the King game?

Constantine outs himself and ATE! WTF? He can call Niakan a liar without doing any of that. You out to validate Niakan (is this absentee somehow more important than the King that you make the King less safe to protect him?). WTF? This allows him to out himself to narrow the search further and keep him safe from the night kill. He then looks around and makes sure he goes after Kianwho is not outed. Kianis outed and lynched. What Kianis doing voting on anyone but Niakan is beyond me. We have an uncounter-claimed Cecil - how can he possibly be scum? Kiangoes on about N0 messages when I have repeatedly confirmed no N0 actions.

Everyone's role is historically accurate. If everyone claimed the mafia are screwed unless they can fake a good claim, but of course that is why this is a protect the King game to stop the town doing that. What we have instead is the town partially outing as much as it can without making any reciprocal demands on the mafia. I have literally no idea what the town is doing. It has committed suicide on d2 and I am in despair of them. The inhibitor to Niakan playing this way was that he knows someone wants him dead. Someone who is hard-wired to want him dead if he takes liberties.

The mafia now know who the King is. They had 50:50 odds to kill him N2 but missed.

Incredibly to me no one on d2 even mentioned that Niakan had admitted to not being town. People kept talking about him being loyalist sided and relating that to ZZ's cop result. Constantine pointed out he could be Godfather, but the thing was you already knew he was! He got a loyal subject result when he isn't a loyal subject. He admits that - ergo the cop result must be false.

More in a bit
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:08 pm

This game definitely has to go in your mega ic post though
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

mhsmith0
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Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:14 pm

... maybe? I mean "lol smith guessed the wolves smith GOAT" is fun, but I'm not sure this game truly stands out as especially poor to the poitn where I'd be super motivated to add it to my list? Maybe there's something in particular I should note, but I don't know that town here is WORSE than it was in, say, 1779, or for that matter 1806 *shrugs*

if I skim and something in particular jumps out I might add it but otherwise probably not
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:16 pm

I think a lot of towns do the stupid shit Cabd is doing in terms of making simplictic assumptions that end up throwing games and it's something worth referencing.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:17 pm

Spoiler:
Competent players are capable of doing really stupid shit as town, and they're also capable of doing really stupid shit as scum basically.
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RadiantCowbells
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Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:53 pm

It makes me sad that usually newbie games

are newbies playing well and experienced players shitting all over the game.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:14 am

In post 714, Cabd wrote:Any particular reason you chose to hammer and not let the confirmed townies speak first?


Spoiler:
a pretty obvious reason occurs to me :lol:
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Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:22 am

don't think it mattesr

even with that scumclaim cabd still never votes gif

he'll get to 3 way as the only person in game that ever townread gif and still vote whoever else is there
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:09 am

also rofl at only firecrocer kills me

everyone kills me here cabd

who the fuck do you think they'd kill, you?
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:33 am

Ugh it's so obnoxious that people aren't the nightkill and never wonder why that is
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:56 am

ugh poor cabd nvm. no more cabd bashing.

Can we cut some of this out since Cabd is having irl shit?
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:04 pm

tilted it's not

Spoiler:
creative/gif


which is what i thought it was before spoiled since like d2 tbh

Spoiler:
so did like gif not submit a kill by accident or what
i no longer strictly go by they/them and honestly prefer she/her but they/them's fine if you're used to it i guess

☭ I'm coming for that toothbrush ☭

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Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:18 am

Eahh, wonderful.
Hello guys :)
Sorry Una :(

Spoiler: well, I wasn't too bad
I wanted GiF dead because of RC and Ragnell was really scummy.
Was wrong about Creative though, meh.
I'm 100% that Firecrocer is ScummingtonMcScumlord VIII. -MarioManiac4

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Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:41 am

In post 62, firecrocer wrote:Eahh, wonderful.
Hello guys :)
Sorry Una :(

Spoiler: well, I wasn't too bad
I wanted GiF dead because of RC and Ragnell was really scummy.
Was wrong about Creative though, meh.

It was all about timing too.

This was my first n00b-game I got to play from the start..it just didn't go on for very long! :lol:

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Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:34 am

In post 765, Cabd wrote:I don't even care any more. If you're voting me for it then do it and get it over with.

Drawing this it just leads to another 1802.


Oh man I feel bad, I was part of 1802 as a sub-in..

So ragnell and GIF it is, but for whatever reason Cabd/Creative neither feel like pushing it through?
They just let Flavor do it alone?
Is it part of the newbie-experience, or what? :D

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Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:46 pm

Funny how GIF bails right as it becomes clear they're confirming non teams...
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Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:17 pm

lol this is kind of funny

what the fuck are these guys doing
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Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:41 pm

Cabd trying so hard to make Flavor Leaf let him throw the game with his terrible GIF townread :(
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:51 pm

Flavor is gambiting his ass off and it's working great. Really impressive for a newbie.
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Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:54 pm

Flavor leaf is my hero
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:43 am

Yo, whattup. Cabd don't mess this up.

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Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:16 pm

literally no reason not to vote Ragnell if you were saying it was sub-optimal not to follow me. Also, yesterday Cabd was completely saying Ragnell was the way to go and better lynch...for yesterday...-.- Please don't vote Creative. I put it out there so many times why I thought Creative was town.

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Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:24 pm

I hope he doesn't. I feel 100% confident he wouldn't have voted GIF but he should be able to vote Ragnell.
If you're Macho and someone tries to rolestop you, you never realise you're being targeted for a kill, so your machismo never gets challenged

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Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:24 pm

Man, he's going to vote Creative.

Also, Cabd's played f2f mafia, right? The sleep/slept thing makes sense coming from Creative playing on a video site.

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Post Post #74  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:13 pm

cabd probably voting ragnall, mainly because ragnall is doing literally nothing, and cabd would feel way dumber for mis-hammering creative than he would for mis-hammering ragnall.
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