Open 62 - Strawberry Mafia - Game Over! before 568

[Jester]

vote Xtoxm

, for three reasons:
:arrow: He doesn't feel scummy in the other game I have with him, so he must be scum here, natch.
:arrow: His nickname is annoying to type.
:arrow: Anyone who PEG likes is obviously scum.

I could probably come up with lots of other reasons too, at least three of which would involve the word "pink." But that's enough for now.

Also, a bit of a meta announcement. I tend to make really long posts, every three or four days. I also don't play mafia on weekends unless the game's in a critical stage.

[Jester]

I didn't take Near's post seriously. Self-voting is anti-town if it's done seriously, but I find there's a certain class of players that like to do it in the random stage just to see if anyone reacts to it. Near's obviously one of these. What struck me about it were two things:
:arrow: Near's 15, which both sounded a little too hostile for the early game; and,
:arrow: malthusis's quiet little 20. I'm not sure what I think about it. Bussing? Newbie-town? It's weird to vote for someone because they apparently will think you are suspicious if you don't vote for them.

As for Snix, I agree with Cephrir's 22. It's not a question I would have asked myself, but his question cut through the BS nicely.

[Jester]

My apologies. I'm almost certainly going to be unavailable until Friday in all of my games. This is an incredibly busy week for me at work. I will catch up and give my full opinion on Friday morning. Until then, it looks to me like we're pretty firmly out of the random stage, so I'm gonna

unvote

.

[Jester]

Hi all, sorry about my five or so day absence. Got tapped to help with an event at work, and I'll be catching up with all of my games over the next couple of days.

That said, some early game commentary. I'm not sure I get most of what's going on on page two. I agree that sarcasm doesn't translate well over the Internet, but I'm not sure we needed to spend most of page two (with no less than six different players involved!). Cephrir again nails it with his 46, correctly pointing out that Near's whole joke and scigatt's reaction to it were indeed blown out of proportion. Cephrir, you have an excellent way of cutting through the BS, but you also come off a little... dunno... arrogant? I can see why people are suspicious of you.

neko, you immediately jump on scigatt's back for claiming to be a newbie (11), but your 25 seems inconsistent with that. If I'm reading it properly, you're both defending Near (saying he made a newbie mistake) and attacking him (saying he believes scum are idiots) in the same post. Am I reading it properly? Your 45 initially struck me as a little odd until I read your 72, at which point, I thought about it and decided that I could see why you'd want to set up pages two and three the way you did. Not a move I would have made, but I understand it. I think you're a townie, but I also think you're playing a little bit over-zealous. The one place where I think you're dead right, though, is your opinion of Xtoxm.

Xtoxm, neko isn't wrong when he says your posts are full of nothing. Why we need a whole page four of this game for you to see that, I don't know. You're definitely not scum-hunting. That doesn't make you scum, but it certainly doesn't make you pro-town.

FOS: Xtoxm

.

My own reactions to neko's experiment:
:arrow: Near, you're going way too far in trying to push bad positions and not doing enough to talk about your real suspicions. Your 63 is ridiculous. It's interesting that it seems to agree with neko's 47, though. My initial take on your 63 was that you were trying to make neko look bad. Based on that, your 15 (the hostility of which really rubbed me the wrong way), and your overly agressive vote on Snix, I think I'm gonna

vote: Near

.
:arrow: scigatt, I'm fairly confident that you're exactly what you claim to be: a newbie, and I think the "case" on you was built around nothing at all except innuendo and opportunism. Your 70 is fine. My second game, I voted just like that and I lucked into finding a scum early.
:arrow: Snix, I like your 62, which caught some of the inconsistencies around the scigatt wagon without laying it all out. I also like your 92. My early read is that you're either pro-town, or an excellent scum.
:arrow: I don't know that there was enough information in the posts from others to draw any conclusions, yet, though I took a few notes.

malthusis, I still think you're lurking in plain sight. As I said earlier, I didn't like your 20 (voting for someone because you thought they'd think you were suspicious if you didn't vote for them?), and that appears to be your only contribution to this game so far.

mod, please prod malthusis.

I don't have good reads on Peers, Marmalade, or Yvonne yet, except Yvonne seems to be pack-following a little.

And I'm caught up.

[Jester]

Yes, I can agree with ridiculous. But since when does ridiculous = mafia?

Hm. Your defense seems to be, "I'm not scum. I'm sarcastic!" In another game I'm in, we had a whole page of discussion about how sarcasm doesn't travel well over the Internet. And yeah, my initial take was that your 63 was trying to make neko look bad. My second take is that you were making fun of him. That seems to fit into your... aheh... sarcastic play style. To answer your question, though, I find that sarcasm is sometimes an excuse made by scum who are caught out early. They then claim to have been "making a joke," same as you.

In your case, though, you're being consistent so it's a decent defense. I'll go with an

unvote

combined with a

FOS: Near

for now. If you're a naturally sarcastic player, you'll be naturally sarcastic throughout the game into days 2 and 3 and beyond. If your sarcasm is just an act to hide scummish behavior, then you'll forget to be sarcastic, even with this little post to remind you.

Jester's few posts were very informative, but I'd like to see him post more.

As I said, had an event at work I was assisting with. I should be more active from here on out. As neko says, though, this opinion was ironic coming from you. I have my own opinion about Near. Otherwise, your 111 is pretty good. It's interesting that you don't post your own opinion about scigatt in all that text, though. You commented on just about everyone else who's been active.

Snix has a been another big contributer to the thread. He seems to be totally convinced by neko, and they seem to be working together (expecially on the wagon).

I don't see that at all. What brought you to that conclusion?

You didn't see this? Heh. How about all of pages 2 and 3, neko? malthusis is right. Snix was following you around like a puppy, following your opinions and answering all of your questions and ignoring everyone else's. It's in my notes, too. I just didn't want to comment on it yet.

I don't like his analysis either.

Which part? Yes, I realize that you said, "I just don't like it..." in your 124. Which

part

do you not like?

I don't like the way his case against Near is for being "too sarcastic".

As I said above, sarcasm is sometimes a mask that mafia use to hide scummish behavior. They claim to be sarcastic or to make jokes or to be just kidding... and meanwhile, they're instrumental in getting townie after townie lynched. It's always worth watching.

[Jester]

Jester, I am not a sarcastic player. You can check out my posts on other games. You will see that I make sarcastic posts once in a while, i write most of my posts seriously.

One thing I want to make sure tho: I didn't claim sarcasm on this post. I said it is "ridiculous". I think this distinction is important.

That was your initial take? How about now? When I consider it, if you thought my post was a

sarcastic post making fun of neko's 47

, I wouldn't find it ridiculous at all. Do you disagree?

The truth is, I went with the badwagon. I hoped to get some reactions from scigatt. Random and maybe ridiculous? Maybe. Counterproductive? I don't think so.

As for #15, what hostility? It was a random voting stage, dude. Yes, perhaps I tried to look semi-smart by

being sarcastic

, but it was 90% joke and 10% trying to get a response.

Emphasis mine. Obviously, I did think those things. I did think you were being overly sarcastic, and I did think you were making fun of neko (who I'm finding townish so far, if sometimes over-zealous). I dunno. Maybe I'm over-reacting, and I do have a weakness in mafia: I don't react well to people who play the game in an emotional way. People that play logically, I get along with fine. People who play by making fun of other players, calling them names, or trying to harass them into a reaction? I understand this is sometimes a valid mafia tactic, but I sometimes misinterpret it as scummy behavior. So there's my little meta for the day, I guess.

I conceded that the way I made the proposal could *sound* ridiculous. You judge for yourself. I guess there are two options: 1) I am scum and I am trying to explicitly get a bandwagon going on scigatt or 2) I am townie and I am trying to apply pressure to someone I find semi-scummy.

It's too early in the game for me to feel very strongly about anyone, so either of these options is still valid. If you don't think you're sarcastic by nature, fair enough. I have to admit, I threw the paragraph about you being sarcastic later in the game to see if you'd react to it, and you did, and in a townie way. So, that makes me feel better. Your 63

did

sound way over the top, though, particularly for so early in the game.

For the record, I currently believe scigatt's claim in post 9. So far, he seems to be trying to scum-hunt to the best of his ability. I don't think he's done anything that's particularly scummy.

[Jester]

@ jester: can you point to a game where a mafiate has been sarcastic and at the same time been "instrumental in getting townie after townie lynched"?

Yeah. It was a major factor in Mini 466, of which I was a part. Two of the scum in that game delighted in making sarcastic fun of several players and led the town on a three-day festival of lynching townies with it before the town figured out what the hell was going on at the last second.

Also, Jester, in one of your posts on page 4 I think, you mention YvonneSeer as following the pack. Can you explain what you mean by this, since I would argue that, if anything, she has never done that here.

Yes, I said she was pack-following a little. Specifically, what caught my eye was her post 96. She didn't actually vote with neko, but she said that his argument against Xtoxm made a lot of sense (which it did). Still, it's only one of two data points I have for Yvonne, not my total opinion of her. The second data-point is her single-targeting, which I find to be the tactic of either scum, or lazy-town. But that's why I originally said "I don't have good reads on Peers, Marmalade, or Yvonne yet." I didn't. I still don't, on Peers and Yvonne. I just added a third data-point for Yvonne, though: "Is now avoiding this game." I don't like people who pick up prods, but don't respond in-game.

Also, does anyone else get the impression that since the beginning escapade, Near has been playing *very* quietly, not saying much, staying relatively in the background? Maybe its just me, but I'm sensing something is amiss.

I really like the rest of your 152, though. It brought a few of my own suspicions into focus. I particularly like your comment here on Near. Even beyond my own suspicions, I'd been feeling a little cautious toward him and now I realize why: he's turtling a little. Good catch. I've been thinking of moving my vote to Xtoxm, but I think I'm gonna agree with neko. I also like my vote where it is for now. Good comments, though, Marmalade. Play some more!

And I'm caught up. This game is moving pretty slowly, even without people getting prodded.

[Jester]

Sorry for not posting. Intended to do so yesterday but got caught up in a lot of work that I had to do for the game that I'm modding here. It's more work than I expected, heh.

I think it's going quite slowly, personally.

QFT, even after the arrival of our two replacements. Welcome to the new people, though, particularly James. You're replacing Peers, who I quite literally had no read on whatsoever. He was a non-presence in the game, and I look forward to some positive contributions from you!

I definately don't think we should be talking about the cop AT ALL this early on, it will just give scum leads.

Completely agree with this. Without a doc, the cop should definitely lay low for a while and concentrate on gathering evidence.

If the cop is put at L-1 I imagine that would have the desired effect. Lock it up!

What do you mean by this? I'm not sure I understand it.

Yvonne does seem like a decent target because, if for no other reason (while there are others) she's isn't pro-town productive.

I must have missed something. How does being anti-town (in that she's not productive and is lurking) make her scum, though? A lot of people like to be fairly quiet day one, just watch and listen and try to catch people in a mistake. I play this way pretty frequently myself, and caught a scum out in my most recent game by doing it. I know a lot of other experienced players also like to be a little "lurky." This feels wrong to me, somehow, like you're taking what Yvonne is doing out of context. Or am I missing part of the "case" against her?

My vote is my contribution for the day. More of you should be like Scigatt...

::blinks:: Ummm... on the other hand... you can't expand on this a little?

Sorry to hear about your loss, scigatt.

[Jester]

P.S. Near, it'd be nice if you responded to my 160. Responding to a post about how you've suddenly gone all quiet by going even more quiet? -J

[Jester]

This is gonna be an incredibly busy week at work for me, so I think I'm gonna have to request replacement in all my D1 games, including this one. Sorry about that. :-/

I'm having fun with MS, but it's also causing me to neglect my other responsibilities, notably my responsibility to the game I run on-line. I think I'm gonna have to limit myself to one game at a time around here.

Again, my apologies. I hate to ask for replacement, but I'm gonna have to.

[Jester]

How about a compromise? If the mod hasn't found a replacement for me by Monday, I'll stay in. But yeah, this week is going to be impossible. But neko is also absolutely correct: I don't want to lurk or be accused of lurking. I pride myself on being involved in all the games I'm in. I'm just on the road all week this week, with very intermittent access to the 'net.

So,

mod, please try to replace me

, but if you can't by Monday, I'm willing and able to stay in. Just don't expect any more posts from me until then...