Mini Normal 1931 | Endgame

[frog]

Frog, how does it feel replacing into a scum slot?

Honestly? Pretty bad

I hope you stay in the game so that nobody else gets the experience

[frog]

UNVOTE:

I will read the thread through tomorrow and get you all some thoughts.

[frog]

Start of Page 1

Sunlit probably town

rb can have some town points for stating exactly what I am thinking at this stage in my read through the game. Enjoying the early game so far. NotTheRealPaul and Dunkerdoodles have some fun banter. Ausuka is probably too serious, too soon, however. skitter30's content immediately after Ausuka's Dunker vote I like very much. Eddie Cane looks like he is lurking. Flavor Leaf with the Paul vote out of nowhere.

oh no

flavor leaf is scum

rb are we the same person or something

this [ciara24] is scum #3

Alright maybe not

We are not deep into the game, but we shouldnt keep playing RVS either.

Someone else after my mind

why is nobody scumreading me

Beats me

@Perfect Fifth; Why would you claim PR at this point in the game?

Rolefish much?

Vote: Flavor Leaf

Since people are complaining that we're making mountains of molehills, let's just speed lynch someone for reactions so we have stuff to analyze.
Any other problems I can solve?

Any chance you could provide objective reads of yourself? I played a game with you last year where you were scum and I was town, and I had early suspicions of you. I have early suspicions of you here, too, but I wonder if that is tonal rather than substantial.

my 7th consecutive post

Really getting sick of Eddie

Uh, this doesn't really track logically. Yes, it's unlikely for wagons to form on scum quickly, but that's not my only reason for thinking FL is town. That would be foolish. I think he's town because I don't scumread his actions. Conversely, I wouldn't flip around my scumread on SD simply because people are agreeing with me.

I have had difficulty sorting wavemode so far, but I like this post individually and within the discussion of which it is part. Thor is also coming out nicely. Seems like some healthy town interaction.

hm. Thor might be scum.
VOTE: thor

And then Eddie votes Thor at the moment I begin to lean town on him.

End of Page 15

[frog]

Polite request that Mulch is not hammered before I have fully caught up, please. I should have the whole game up to this point read by the end of the day.

[frog]

Start of Page 16

We're starting to flounder around with side vanity projects - I think people should consider voting secondary or tertiary scum reads if it helps consolidate wagons.

Thor can go back down to neutral for this comment. Ages until deadline, and already advocating compromise wagons. Plenty to discuss without losing conviction. Surely wagons with no feeling behind them are less useful than wagons which are more informed by reasoning?

UnaBombaH monologues, part 1.

UnaBombaH monologues, part 2.

I like the analysis, though less sure about the conclusions on Sunlit Diamond

Because a lie/misrep doesn't require a valid answer from the person being lied about/misrepped but does require it from the person doing the lie/misrep.
What, I'm supposed to wait for someone else to call it a lie/misrep before I can question it?
That makes no sense - why would that help?

Can you not think of a single situation in which waiting for somebody else to engage with faulty arguments might be useful?

This is empty blather.

That's half your fault, there's plenty going on. Subsequent interaction with Eddie makes both look worse in my opinion. I will admit that I have skipped some of the lengthier posts. Ausuku and Flavor Leaf return and make me wonder which one of these four players is town

And yeah, Unabombh's probably scum with her flip flop.

Like, what?

(Apologies in advance, I have a tendency to wall).

On board with a lot of skitter's content after the catch-up post, both in terms of thought process, comprehension, and conclusions. I am quite happy to have her as a secure townread, at least for now.

*drops out of the sky*

Something about this post pings me. I might return to it later to see why my gut doesn't like it.

uhhhh okay. so i've requested that this account be replaced with my main because yeah i'm not able to play with this playstyle and all it really ends up doing is making the game worse.

Alright, this is novel. Can I confirm whether your read forming process was something you were intending to alter as an alt, or was it only style you wished to experiment with? I would still like this answered having just read post #580

VOTE: Sunlit Diamond

Sunlit Diamond wagon looking a little bit more explicable now, but still no explanation

wavemode why are you voting for sunlit

Also is it cool if I just completely ignore Eddie and Thor because all the anger is giving me a headache

Ciara really does not deserve some of the earlier suspicion

Because [Ciara24 is] scum.

What? Would have been nice to know your reasoning at the time

Holy fuck thor is so scum LMAO

GET OUT OF MY HEAD

Eddie has become ???? cuz I can't figure out what he's doing.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD

End of Page 26

[frog]

Polite request that Mulch is not hammered before I have fully caught up, please. I should have the whole game up to this point read by the end of the day.

Unfortunately this will not happen, but I promise I will be fully caught up by the end of tomorrow.

[frog]

Well, so much for letting me catch up

I actually thought your predecessor was reasonably towny, but there's no denying the last twenty or so pages have been pretty terrible

[frog]

You may want to apologise to MarioManiac4 after the game

[frog]

Caught up during the night, if anyone wants opinions on anything, just ask.

VOTE: thor

[frog]

frog

um...?

[frog]

frog

um...?

f r o g

u m . . . ?

Why do you think this is a useful conversation to have

[frog]

Caught up during the night, if anyone wants opinions on anything, just ask.

VOTE: thor

mind posting the rest of your catchup with reads? I was not overly impressed with the first part though it wasn't irredeemable

I don't have a 'rest of' my catch-up post, but you can have my reads

Town
rb, MarioManiac, NotTheRealPaul, UnaBombaH

Null-Town
skitter30, wavemode

Null-Scum
DunkerDoodles

Scum
Eddie Cane, Flavor Leaf, thor665

[frog]

because you not dying is weird and indicative of frog!scum.

Well, sorry, but if you think like that, you really should be voting me. I will not be revealing anything in a situation like this. This is some pretty bad rolefishing

[frog]

Why do you not have a rest of catchup when you were apparently catching up further?

I read the thread and formed opinions, I did not compose posts like my earlier two

[frog]

justify your reads if you didn't do a. catch up at least. you haven't posted anything recently and we need to see why these are your reads

Sure, although briefly and with generalisations

rb: a scarily large number of times, rb posted what I was thinking at the very moment I started thinking about it. rb followed up the things I would have wanted to follow up and has been frustrated at the events that have irritated me. I think it is logical to believe that rb is of my alignment.

MarioManiac4: the moment Ausuka changed into MM4 my read of the slot improved; reads were explained well (and, I think, generally good) Engagement with suspicious slots, such as UnaBombaH and Mulch, I liked; the emphasis was on drawing out useful information and encouraging participation.

NotTheRealPaul: early game, Paul was very aware of the assumptions he brings into play, which requires an effort I don't think scum would make. His questions have been good and reads, and especially changes of opinion, are explained clearly. Obviously pro-town behaviour does not necessarily indicate alignment with town, but I am comfortable with this read.

UnaBombaH: UnaBombaH has more engagement with wagons than most, and this, combined with post #284, makes him appear a useful player in my eyes. The read posts on Ausuka and Sunlit Diamond indicate a towny mindset in my opinion.

skitter30: I had a favourable opinion of skitter, as I said, from the interactions after Ausuka voted for DunkerDoodles early on Day 1. It was useful, early, serious content, clearly attempting to move the game forward without the dangers of dogma and joviality. The catching-up was also good, but later on she seems noncommittal and slightly lurkerish? I will admit there is some gut in that, without which she would be higher in my reads list.

wavemode: I was having trouble sorting wavemode earlier in the game, but a few posts here and there (#314 and #1286) I think come from a town mindset.

DunkerDoodles: no offence intended, but probably the least memorable player in the game for me so far, which makes me think they are lurking actively. Not a good sign

Eddie Cain: irreverent half the time, useless the other. Questions have been shallow. It seems like they are trying to insert themselves into everything without having much of an impact.

Flavor Leaf: pushes early Day 1 on spurious issues and does nothing with the 'pressure' they claim to be exerting. After unvoting themselves, they claim to have a few weak townreads and ask little that might solidify these or produce some scumreads. They also seem unusually concerned with their wagon after it dissipated.

thor665: thor has seemed very worried about how he looks and where he sits in relation to other players. The conflicts he has involved himself in have distracted us from useful play and disinterested plenty of players, and this is worse when his request to compromise wagon early Day 1 is considered. Further specifics deliberately left out to avoid a thor argument.

[frog]

Eddie Cane, can you explain your read of rb in detail please

[frog]

Yes, I have been studying this extensively, and for example, I'm very disturbed by the fact that now anyone could be bulletproof, and yet not town.

If I understood correctly my research on wiki, it might even be more common on not-town-players in Normal games..?

Why are you so anxious about the setup?

[frog]

Eddie Cane, can you explain your read of rb in detail please

no.

OK, then let me ask a slightly different question: how strong is your townread of rb?

Even if I did exactly those things (woooosh!) how does that suggest scum intent?
At best you're describing bad play there, not scum play, what am I missing?
Also, why no VCA consideration? You have me and Eddie as top scum candidates and...nothing else in that analysis about how that seems unlikely (or, I suppose, explanation for why it is)?

Of course bad and anti-town does not mean scum, but since so much of what is commonly called scummy does not indicate scum, I cannot agree that this criticism undermines my read. You may as well apply it to everyone and everything and deflate every read that way. I think your words are deliberately misdirective, and I will never believe that you are just discussing theory, because I do not think that there is a universal way to play mafia. Theory is contingent on alignment, role, gamestate, and player. What about DunkerDoodles makes him scum, as opposed to anti-town or bad?
As for the Eddie Cane thing, I find nothing to suggest you cannot be scum together. In fact, I marked down a Day 1 argument as looking like scum vs scum. Why are you think you there is a problem here? Burden is on you

[frog]

I'm only anxious about the setup, because I feel like a small blind fish swimming with bigger..things..in the water.

And the worst thing is, I don't know whether they are sharks/whales/frogs...so I'm just an anxious n00b.

I don't think anyone, including scum, doesn't feel the same. No reason why it prevents us from being confident in our interactions though

[frog]

Hey, guys. I'm here. If SD was a vig shot, then TB is likely town.

Why are we talking so much about vigilantes? I understand that some of us have some ideas about what did and should have happened last night, but why is any of this speculation useful?

[frog]

Why are you think you there is a problem here? Burden is on you

Whoa, do not know what happened with that sentence. Apologies.

strongish. not lock town but unless certain things happen I won't be voting him

OK, thanks, that's helpful.

I actually do - it's why I say most reads are inherently bad.

Does it make sense to call them bad if such a great proportion of reads satisfy the word? Wrong is not necessarily bad*

I agree there is no universal way AND HAVE NEVER SAID THERE IS.
So how am I being misdirective exactly?

Misdirective in the sense that your back-and-forths with, say, rb and Eddie Cane did not go anywhere productive. The theory point was separate

My town reads and the timing of his vote.

On the Mulch wagon?

No, burden is on anyone making a claim - which you are doing.
I think there is a problem with an Eddie/Thor combo because scum don't try to sweet talk their scumbuddy they've been bussing onto a mislynch wagon unless they are really terrible.
Are you calling Eddie really terrible, or are you saying that was good play for scumbuddies?

Yes, burden is on me to show why both of you are scum, but you claiming such reads make no sense to hold simultaneously is a positive claim. Like, I can (and have, briefly) explained why I think you are both scum, but I should not have to anticipate 'but that is impossible' from the audience. I don't know what suppositions you will be bringing to others' readslists. Regardless, thank you for the explanation. I am saying neither thing; it has nt factored into my reads.

*Interesting theory stuff that might be a better conversation outside of the game

[frog]

everyone states their read on wavemode in their next post - scum or town.

Town

But note they are the most null of any of my reads

[frog]

Ok

[frog]

Enough with the night speculation

Everybody should answer rb's question

[frog]

Now Im confused.

Eddie, read on rb?
And based on what?

why?

rb is town for other reasons

Eddie Cane, can you explain your read of rb in detail please

no.

strongish. not lock town but unless certain things happen I won't be voting him

cause it probably means either

a) we have a vig who killed SD, rb was shot and healed
b) scum has rb townreading them and is therefore not concerned enough to push or kill him
c) rb is just scum

b is probably most likely.

nah, I got the nka I needed. scum!rb would've killed me last night almost for sure I think, and any further nights are not gonna help. now rb isn't dying if we have a doc because he's universally townread and there is no other doc worthy player right now and if we don't have a doc we don't have a vig and sd was a scum kill. wifom city bitch. this nka is for you frog :*

Alright, Eddie, I would like to talk.

Unless this is all some elaborate misdirection for scum, I feel very strongly that you know far more than you are letting on, and not in a towny way. Explain?

[frog]

I know 'explain' is a very vague request when set against all those quotations, so what I suppose I am asking for is more information about why you are speculating this much, why the possibilities matter so much to you, and why you reached the conclusions you did

[frog]

No, you definitely know something

VOTE: Eddie Cane

[frog]

rb, will you consider an Eddie lynch? If not, why not?

[frog]

"you know more than you're letting on" is a leading question. the only outside sources of info are scum and pr. you're attempting to push me into a corner and force my pr claim because as scum you know I'm town. 2096 evem says it, you think im a pr and you want me to claim. jokes on you because there's no outside info there and I'm not someone some random scumfuck is going to poorly pressure into claiming.

Or I am town and I think you are scum?

That request for you to talk to me? That was genuine. I have wanted some answers out of you at various stages of today, and you have either not been forthcoming or you have given answers that are less than ideally precise. Let me be clear as I can: if you are town, we want to co-operate. I have been trying, and although you are evasive there has been enough doubt in me that, maybe, you want to as well.

Here is what I find strange. You refuse to elaborate on your read of rb, despite there being concerns about buddying. You give a noncomittal answer about how strong your read of rb is, despite at least two players asking you for it. You engage in night speculation, in which rb features to the point where his lack of dying is the focal point of the post. You ask questions of rb to answer whether rb as scum would have killed you last night. I doubt I am the only one to notice all this, and, to me, it suggests that you are party to something the rest of us are not.

I think you are attempting to use rb to stay alive and control the gamestate. I think you are trying to mislead and confuse town. I think you are setting up scenarios about alignments that you will exploit later in the game. I do not think you are trying to gamesolve, I do not think that you are assisting rb in his effort to read others, and I do not buy your responses to my questions.

The offer of co-operation is not going away, but I am going to need greater effort and, in particular, greater transparency, before I am convinced you are not a good lynch candidate.

[frog]

frog, I asked you to justify town wave because your reads are backwards and you manage to have him as town. show me that. you have the power prevent a mislych. use it.

wavemode is my shakiest townread, and the lean comes from a small number of posts I like and the fact that I think four other players are scummier than they are (although Flavor Leaf might be promoted soon). You aren't exactly asking their best advocate to defend them, and I haven't even yet managed to read all of rb's case post.

Wait what I was memeing do I have to take this game seriously

I mean, it isn't RVS and we don't want to go back there

thor, I have a reason to believe wave might be town. who should I vote if I change votes?

Alright, I'm glad I didn't expend the effort

Or are we just jerking you off here?
It feels like a jerk job going nowhere fast.

He's asking you for a scumread you both agree on, how do you not see that

[frog]

I see that I provided info I had already given that he didn't care about to discuss.
I see that instead of discussing my scum read he instead decided to debate theoreticals.
I see that upon receipt of theoreticals he did nothing with them.
I see that it has, thus far, been exactly a jerk for nothing.

Why, what progress do you see him making with my answers?
I'll wait.
I expect this conversation to be dropped like a wet blanket because you're scum empty poking me for no purpose over something that you're not even ascribing a tell to and that I've thus far been proven correct in predicting - please feel free to thrill me and take this comment anywhere thus proving me wrong. I could really use a change of pace.

Clearly my tone did not come across as I intended. My comment was not intended as shade, or 'poking', or whatever; I just perceived that this was a chance for some co-operation with a slot you read as town (am I correct here?) which I thought you dismissed prematurely. Where you saw 'theoreticals', I thought that was his way of asking for another scumread that you might have been able to discuss. Nothing more. I cannot predict what might have or might yet come of it, but surely discussing information and reads is good? It at least had the

potential

to be useful.

[frog]

Sorry, thor, I am genuinely not trying to anger you.

[frog]

Eddie- Thor, Wave

Me, Wave, Skitterslot

Rb- Anyone but una and mm4

Wave- mm4, paul, rb

skitterslot -sheeping rb currently

mm4 - wave, maybe more?

una- ?

fl- ?

alright so who can we agree on?

oops forgot thor

thor- me, fl, dunkers

would agree to lynch these ppl
Eddie Cane
Flavor Leaf
Dunkerdoodles
Game Replacement
wavemode
Thor665

actively want to lynch these ppl
wavemode
Flavor Leaf
Dunkerdoodles

vedith is probably capable of obvtowning if town so he needs to go do that

am finding it progressively harder to have fun in this game

Wow, guess I am that forgettable

[frog]

tfw Vedith has a greater presence in this game than I do and he is not even playing in it

[frog]

tfw Vedith has a greater presence in this game than I do and he is not even playing in it

@MOD - Should this player be posting here?

Curious to know this as well

(Also, welcome Game Replacement! Forgot to say that earlier)

[frog]

Off the table are rb, MM4, you, and Una

Scumreads are FL and dunker (weak) and thor and Eddie (strong)

[frog]

u think thor vs eddie was scum theatre?

I think it could well have been. Make town despondent by having two players argue inconsequentially and distract from discussion that might be productive. Certainly there is nothing to say they cannot be scum together.

frog, why is MM4 off table for you?

Strong residual townread from Day One and early Day Two. I will concur that their recent posting hasn't been as good, but I don't think that equates to scummy. It may well be complacency as a result of a town leader of sorts emerging.

I have decided!

VOTE: rb

If you're going to be contrarian to this extent, there should probably be more than a naked vote

rb, as you have said yourself, it is high time a wagon goes somewhere. Who should it be on if you won't join me?

[frog]

they don't actually say anything. and, after mulchs horrible self hammer, he gives up on them.

I'm not so sure you are the qualified to make that accusation, Eddie. My postcount may be a small fraction of yours, but how many of them are irreverent one-liners? If you scumread me based on my posts not saying anything, then you're justifying my vote on you.

hints at a scumread on mr then gives me town points...?

never mind that at the end of that post you implied a strong scumread

Come on now, you resolved that criticism at the time you read my post. I was beginning to townlean on Thor at the time in the game you voted for him. It seems you understood that earlier; why not now, when you have a need to misrep? Oh, sorry, seems that I answered my own question

then he gives up on posting relevant stuff and posts thst we can ask about his catchuo. it wss bad to begin with, not a big loss.y the issue is his reads. that whole explanation post is fluff. idk. i don't have the energy to do a pbpa.

... So now you don't want the catch-up. Scum if I do write the catch-up, scum if I don't. You're making premises for a chosen conclusion. I agree that the read post is cursory, I stated as much at the beginning. That does not, however, mean it is fluff. You had the opportunity to use it as a vehicle for elaboration. Besides, why do you think I should be providing massively detailed reads lists as a matter of course when you can't even be bothered to properly ISO one player? Let's call it 'fluff'. It's far more complete and informative than any of your posts.

P-edit: I really don't want to vote wavemode when Eddie is still alive

[frog]

Hell, if #2 is true, why is his scum list only 2 players long, couldn't all of his other town reads be fake also?

Welcome to misrep city, population: Thor
For someone who becomes extremely agitated about people forgetting things he has written, you sure do like subjecting others to the same experience

Yes, burden is on me to show why both of you are scum, but you claiming such reads make no sense to hold simultaneously is a positive claim. Like, I can (and have, briefly) explained why I think you are both scum, but I should not have to anticipate 'but that is impossible' from the audience. I don't know what suppositions you will be bringing to others' readslists. Regardless, thank you for the explanation. I am saying neither thing; it has nt factored into my reads.

@Mario - I will note another time of frog AGREEING with my understanding of what he is saying.

I will note that I don't think he has justified how we make sense as partners in any way at all, but that's another matter.

So you're arguing a stance that both I *AND* frog disagree with.


Are you not reading frog?
Whassup here?
Why the dance?

Things went very quiet, so I'll even show my hand and admit all I really want is an admission that frog is peddling a scum team that h is ducking explaining how they work, while being aware there are issues with them being a team, which is kind of a big deal considering he's peddling a team.

It's actually the core of my frog issue, frankly.

So maybe "all" I'm hoping for is a total reverse from anyone town reading frog, but...hey.

There were a fair few posts about this, so please bring up anything I do not respond to, but to clarify, here is my position:

1) I do think that Eddie Cane is scum and I do think that thor is scum
2) I do not think it is impossible they are scum together
3) I do not think I have to attempt to prove that my scumreads are the scumteam
4) I do not think their earlier engagement is necessarily indicative of town vs town or town vs scum
5) I do think their earlier engagement could be scum vs scum
6) I do not feel obliged to prove that their earlier engagement is scum vs scum because
i) it is irrelevant; we cannot lynch both of them today
ii) when more information is forthcoming, such as a flip or a result, reads and teams will become more apparent
iii) see 3)
7) I do not think that I have been 'peddling a scum team' (what do you mean by this?); I do think I have scumreads which do not conflict with each other.

Every player here is 'peddling a scum team' in the sense they have more than one scumread, no player here has explained how they work. I think most players would state that their scumreads could be (on) the scumteam, and that interactions could look like scum and scum. If that is the 'core' of your issue with me, I am, frankly, disappointed

[frog]

irrelevant bullshit level: 10

saying I'm doing the same things as you and I can't scumread you for them

is admitting you're being a scumfuck because I'm intentionally being scummy. good point! and being a hypocrite means jack shit in mafia, I don't care if I shitpost, shitposting and posting one liners isn't the same as attempting to make a constructive catch up and flat our failing because you aren't experienced enough to fake a real catch up. i have lots of posts, you having less doesn't make you scum, but you're attempting to look contributing while doing nothing. your catchup offered nothing productive to the thread as does the test of your content.

that's not what a misrep is, nice buzzwording though.

you already acknowledged it was a valid point by saying you answered it earlier

so don't try and play the misrep card. i didn't "understand" it, I stopped commenting on it because there were bigger fish to fry. never mind how hard you're peddling me and thor as your strongest scum reads when anyone who isn't a squawking cactus can tell we almost certainly aren't partners. lolz. and advice for the future: next time just fake a 4th scumread so it isn't blatantly obvious you're scum faking a team read and confbiasing it to fit.

I never said I don't want the catchup.

show me where I said that. you wanna talk about misrepping? you just openly did it. your catchup was awful, that doesn't even close to equate to the bullshit you're trying to pedal. i never said "scum if you do, scum if you don't" in any world. losing another 30 pages of horrible catchup isn't a big loss, which is true. random snips at random comments followed by disconnected reads is not a good catchup.

I've isod lots of players btw, so idk where that line comes from

, but sure, keep trying to discredit me. it's not "complete and informative"... scratch that. it's informative. reporting on information instead of analyzing. hey Thor, found a wiki tell for us to use! you said it yourself, it's informative, it's not analytical and stating things about a bunch of people IS fluff.

P-edit: you're getting lynched today.

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, is it? In order:

1) I said the logic of your scumread of me supports the logic of my scumread of you. In other words, if I followed your criteria, I should be scumreading you!
2) I said that

you

resolved the criticism earlier (and even quoted the post where you did so), not

me

. Shall we count this exchange as one misrep or two?
3) I said, with that comment about 'scum if I do, scum if I don't', that you had judged the catch-up before it was forthcoming. If what I produced was bad and useless and you had already sorted me, then it stands to reason that any more is, at best, superfluous. Maybe saying you do not want the catch-up was a stretch, but you certainly did not enjoy it and you certainly did not need it, which is near enough not wanting it in my eyes.
4) I said 'ISO' where perhaps I meant something more like 'pbpa'. A phrase that might have served the same purpose is 'a post where you tried'.

I think, unless you manage to read a post without misunderstanding and without recourse to the Oxford English Dictionary to produce overfine distinctions to use in your excuses for responses, we had better not engage again. Your posting when irreverent was not enlightening, but it seems that it only gets worse when you begin to expend energy.

[frog]

@Frog; Do you believe it to be likely Thor and Eddie are a scumteam based on associative or not?

I do not believe it to be likely thor and Eddie are a scumteam based on associative.

There are a lot of ways to deconstruct that statement, however, so I am bracing for some major splitting of hairs

[frog]

That's enough vitriol for one day

[frog]

seriously, still tunnelling me? if so any new opinions?

This might surprise you, but I am not! After yesterday and last night, there are a few things I have to reconsider. More forthcoming

[frog]

seriously, still tunnelling me? if so any new opinions?

This might surprise you, but I am not! After yesterday and last night, there are a few things I have to reconsider. More forthcoming

During Night 2 I reassessed where I was in relation to the gamestate and the game, and came to the conclusion that there is a substantial chance that I have very badly misinterpreted your play. I now think the two of us should form a townbloc, as strange as that sounds given yesterday's vitriol.

Flavor Leaf has also risen highly in my estimation for their play late yesterday and early today.

Since I was wrong on Mario, I am now also actively rethinking my townreads.

ok, i see a wagon forming on me so i'm going to claim PR. i can fullclaim if i need to, it doesn't impact my role that much being on outed PR so yeah.
does game replacement/rb make sense? game replacement's push on rb seem a bit like bussing to me.
i still think skitter was scum, rb could've been scum too but i think rb was town, but you guys are scumreading him so idk

Will your claim help us understand what has been happening the previous few nights? If yes, your claim would be valued, as far too many players have been engaging in night analysis for them all to be scum.

[frog]

Is the consensus that the Mulch lynch was scum driven or town driven?

ummmmmmmmm

[frog]

I want to hear frog/GameReplacement the most for now, and see where they are going with their thoughts.

Sure. Ask me anything!

[frog]

I am fine with a massclaim, preferably popcorn

[frog]

That was a terrible wagon and everyone on it should be ashamed, even if Dunkerdoodles flips scum

[frog]

Dunker, if you're a PR, can you please claim everything now to limit tomorrow's WIFOM?

[frog]

If I die, major suspicion on Eddie Cane please

[frog]

Have you read the game yet?

[frog]

That was a terrible wagon and everyone on it should be ashamed, even if Dunkerdoodles flips scum

You were on the wagon?

[frog]

I am having a very difficult time piecing anything together this game

[frog]

What was the info?

[frog]

i voted third and mainly so dunker would actually claim. him getting 3 more votes immediately is disgusting. one of gr/flavor is probably scum with wave/thor, and third is you/una/one of the others. I'm waffling on you after rereading so idk. leaning scum but I'll try rereading later.

So basically, every player is in your scum pool

[frog]

I am having a very difficult time piecing anything together this game

VOTE: Eddie Cane

All of the problems I have with the game derive from you.

No excuses, everyone get in here and contribute before we quicklynch a power role or waste two weeks with irreverence

[frog]

We do not know who was the target
We do not know if there was a doctor
We do not know if there was a jailkeeper
We do not know the abilities or actions of any power roles, if any

[frog]

If you have a problem with night analysis and WIFOM you really should be voting Eddie with me

[frog]

I feel like Flavor Leaf is probably town, to be honest, and that their claim will resolve itself shortly

They have already committed themselves in that direction

[frog]

I'm going to share, but I want people to chime in and see people potentially freak out. Also, if I was blocked by town of some sort, then my action means nothing.

I think it would be best to proceed as if your result was genuine

[frog]

UNVOTE:

Eddie is town

[frog]

We have a scum!

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[frog]

Eddie

Flavor Leaf is scum

[frog]

frog/Eddie/rb slot confirmed town

Flavor Leaf confirmed scum

Now we are looking in Una, Paul, thor, wave, GR

[frog]

TwoInAMillion, you are confirmed town

No need for posturing, just state any and all thoughts as they come

Do not follow the rest of us if you think we could be wrong

[frog]

Rb slot isn't conf town either

This is true, actually

Hey Eddie, want to townblock?

[frog]

Rolestop/JK/Cop

Hang on, what do you mean by 'rolestop'? Do you mean JK?

[frog]

It is possible Dunker was the kill on Night 2

Unlikely, given the suspicion, but possible

[frog]

Rolestop/JK/Cop

Hang on, what do you mean by 'rolestop'? Do you mean JK?

rolestop is basically doctor on steroids check the wiki

Huh

UNVOTE:

Give me a minute

[frog]

Alright, I may have been a little hasty

[frog]

Frog, he's setting me up. if you're town, please see this. If you're scum, meh, carry on.

what's cute is this town is so pathetically bad I might get lynched here. i really need a competent player to sub in atm. =/

I will not be supporting a lynch on you

The question is what I think of Flavor Leaf

[frog]

Let me check one thing

Eddie, you protected me last night?

[frog]

I don't see mod meta as a valid defense at this point, Eddie. The fact is you voted town twice. I would need something pretty concrete to vote FL over you.

when the fuck did i mention mod meta

When you were speculating on the setup.

Will you vote Flavor Leaf?

[frog]

I might be wrong about Flavor Leaf and Eddie Cane

Again

[frog]

I think you are town

[frog]

What do you think Eddie is hoping to accomplish with his, from your point of view, fake claim?

[frog]

Mulch Lynch: MarioManiac4, rb, Eddie Cane, skitter30, NotTheRealPaul, Dunkerdoodles, Mulch
Dunker Lynch: Thor665, wavemode, Eddie Cane, NotTheRealPaul, Game Replacement, Flavor Leaf

Only Eddie and NtRP were on both town lynches.

Wagons are not always the answer, be aware

[frog]

Yes

[frog]

The problem I have is that nothing quite adds up assuming either one of you is town or scum!

[frog]

But you have to be held accountable for your votes.

I agree, but mistaken town is not scum

[frog]

After some careful consideration, imagining both Eddie Cane and Flavor Leaf as town and scum, I feel like the following information is necessary to communicate:

I am an Odd-Night Watcher.

Night One I watched rb. Eddie Cane visited rb.
Night Three I watched Flavor Leaf. Nobody visited Flavor Leaf.

[frog]

Here are some relevant conclusions:

rb was not the target of a kill Night One, unless there was a Ninja, Eddie Cane was a Doctor, and there was a Vigilante
Flavor Leaf was not roleblocked last night

[frog]

The problem I have is that, although my results clarify things, they do not confirm either one of Flavor Leaf or Eddie Cane as scum

[frog]

The reason for me thinking Flavor Leaf was scum, by the way, was that I thought he had roleblocked me Night One when I had received a result

[frog]

Hang on, though

With these claims we might be able to break something

I could do with thoughts, quickly

[frog]

frog - Odd-Night Watcher. N1 - Eddie Cane visited rb. N3 - Nobody visited Flavor Leaf
Eddie Cane - Doctor. N1 - rb. N2 - rb. N3 - frog
Flavor Leaf - Loyal JOAT. N1 - rolestop frog. N2 - jailkept frog. N3 - investigated Eddie Cane [no result]

[frog]

Can we not play around with that, though?

[frog]

For instance

We could have Eddie protect me?

[frog]

So Frog got a result on N1 even though it should have been blocked by FL. That means there's a lie in one of those two results.

No, I got that wrong

My role and results are concordant with both claims

Hence the problem I'm having

[frog]

Flavor Leaf, how do you explain the absence of a kill last night?

[frog]

I guess the question is would scumEddie protect a townie to try and frame them later or would he definately protect scum. Has Eddie been a scum doctor in any other games?

Is this a slip?

I feel like this is a slip

[frog]

I understand that everything is clear from your point of view

But it is definitely not for the rest of us

So please hold the condescension

[frog]

I find that a bit tendentious, to be honest

10:3 could be town:anti-town

[frog]

What I would be interested in are comments that evince greater knowledge of the game than usual (like I accused Eddie of making Day 2) or statements that might nullify a claim for a player (so Eddie was never going to be a cop, for instance)

[frog]

if you wouldn't mind helping me save time, I don't have computer access in the summer. if you or someone could color eod vcs with me rb slot and frog as town and flavor as scum id appreciate it. i know you may not agree with those assumptions it's just what I want to use to work with and trust me it'll make sensw

Sure, hang on

[frog]

Vote Count 1.16

Mulch

(7): MarioManiac4,

rb

,

Eddie Cane

, skitter30, NotTheRealPaul, Dunkerdoodles, Mulch

(LYNCH)

Sunlit Diamond

(2): Thor665, wavemode

MarioManiac4

(1):

Flavor Leaf

Not Voting

(3): UnaBombaH,

frog

, Sunlit Diamond

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-08-06 20:05:00)

Mod Notes: NotTheRealPaul V/LA until 8/3

Vote Count 2.09 - FINAL

MarioManiac4

(6): wavemode,

Flavor Leaf

, Game Replacement, NotTheRealPaul, Dunkerdoodles,

rb

(LYNCH)

Eddie Cane

(2):

frog

, UnaBombaH

Dunkerdoodles

(2): Thor665, MarioManiac4

frog

(1):

Eddie Cane

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-08-16 16:00:00)

Mod Notes:

Vote Count 3.02 - FINAL

Dunkerdoodles

(6): Thor665, wavemode,

Eddie Cane

, NotTheRealPaul, Game Replacement,

Flavor Leaf

(LYNCH)

Not Voting

(4): UnaBombaH, Dunkerdoodles,

TwoInAMillion

,

frog

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-08-25 21:21:00)

Mod Notes:

Bold is town, underlined and bold is scum. Sorry about the lack of colours, I am not familiar with how to do them.

[frog]

It is nearly midnight, so I had better go to bed

Please do not lynch anybody in my absence

[frog]

Unvote Eddie NOW. We need more time.

[frog]

Both of them fit with what we know and make valid points, so rushing the decision is not the answer

[frog]

I am currently wondering whether we should lynch elsewhere

If Eddie commits himself to protecting me, then all three of the claimed PRs should be able to make it through the night. That affords us a lynch and possibly a result.

[frog]

I would also like TwoInAMillion to claim.

How likely do you think this game has any more kill-protection than claimed FL or claimed Eddie?

I do not think it is likely town has any more protective roles beyond one of those two claims.

Also, the reason I disliked the speculation is because I had a result which nullified that speculation which I could hardly claim at that time. Speculation now makes sense.

[frog]

VOTE: TwoInAMillion

[frog]

Everyone just wait for his claim, he has no reason to refuse a claim if we all want it.
With his claim we get one conf. scum.

Hang on

How does this work? It would depend on him verifying that rb protected him two nights in a row

[frog]

Can you unvote, please?

[frog]

UNVOTE:

He might be, but there is no need to rush

[frog]

With three PR claims and 1 soft it is insane that we're continuing discussion without a full claim at this stage.
There are a number of ways that a full claim helps theory sort the current mish-mash, and scum being locked into lies now is highly beneficial on multiple fronts.

With frog as the last full claimer I strongly suggest he popcorns to someone, and they full claim (role and any actions) and popcorn to someone else to then claim.

Eddie also needs to so strongly pull back on his whine about bad play, as he appears to be basing it off one speed derp wagon while not actally suggesting any of that is scum in a functional way which is the easiest explanation for 50% of the derp and doesn't require lying as a wagon theory nor intentionally playing like scum when a Doc who isn't crumbing

With three claims out of nine players, a massclaim does make sense

Since Una seems to have thought of something I have missed, I will

nominate TwoInAMillion

to full claim.

[frog]

I already did. My role has nothing to do with Eddie/FL. Other than that there is no reason for me to claim. Una is being an idiot(or scum trying to rolefish).

There are too many people advocating claims for them all to be scum.

We have three claims so far, out of nine players. It benefits town to have as complete knowledge as possible given some genuine power roles must have been outed. It would really help us if you claim. There is no longer any real need to be hiding

Consider this another way. Why don't you want to claim?

@wavemode: lynching outside of Flavor Leaf and Eddie might not be the best play, correct. I am just wondering whether we can't play around with the claims in a constructive way. Answer may be 'no', but it is worth exploring

[frog]

There's no knowledge to be gained from me claiming.

Claiming only benefits scum because it gives them more role knowledge.

Claiming benefits town because it gives town knowledge. We are reasonably late in the game anyway and quite close to lynching scum.

We now have four claims

[frog]

Apart from your role, you mean?

[frog]

So there is knowledge to be gained from you claiming

[frog]

@Frog - out of curiosity, what do you consider optimal popcorn strategy?

I have not played in many games in which a massclaim has happened, so I have little experience here. Do you mean what I think is optimal in terms of who dictates the order?

I have no intentions of claiming as it will help only scum. And I will not be bullied into doing so.

If you do not claim, we will be forced to place you at L-1. Claiming now saves us time and bother. Do you want us to place you at L-1? If you do not claim in your next post I will vote for you

[frog]

VOTE: TwoInAMillion

[frog]

TwoInAMillion, you are being stubborn, and you are wrong, no matter what you say.
You have pretty much ONE CLAIM, that I'd say has no value to my theory, but I'm 99% sure you don't claim it.
Anything else you claim either confirms FL, or basically Frog+Eddie scum. Understand this, and accept this.
Even if you were to be the Doctor (for example) and you don't want to claim because you are scared of a night kill coming your way, your claim would still implicate Eddie as scum or town -> confirms FL either way -> helps town immensely.

Claim and stop stalling. Even an honest VT-claim is important to me now.

I will also note that if you don't claim there are clearly enough people to put you to L-1 to force it BUT TOWN DOESN'T HAVE THE TIME TO WASTE DOING THAT AND IT'S ANTI-TOWN TO OBLIGATE IT.

Two more will be joining me soon

[frog]

Okay, so I'm a Rolecop (x shot) and FL is a JOAT. I'm pretty sure Eddie is scum here and that post just seemed like AtE.

Is there no possibility of a scum Jack-Of-All-Trades? I don't understand why (amongst others) are being so hasty here, Eddie is at L-1 again

[frog]

Also

V/LA for 24 hours of this post

[frog]

I am prepared to hammer soon, I don't see any need to drag this out longer.

What do you mean 'drag this out'? We are one-and-a-half real days into the Day, that is barely anything and there is so much more to figure out.

We still need:
1) Night analysis, to explain irregularities in claims
2) A completed mass claim (we are at 6/9, NTRP, thor, and Una have yet to claim)

Why are you advocating a quicklynch in these circumstances?

[frog]

I don't know why scumFrog would have backed off of me earlier, though.

scum!frog did not need to claim to begin with, but I digress

[frog]

From your point of view there is a very obvious course of action, though

For the rest of us, barring Eddie, that is not the case

[frog]

UNVOTE:

[frog]

I checked FL last night.

From my point of view Game Replacement is confirmed scum, as nobody visited Flavor Leaf Night 3. Flavor Leaf is also confirmed scum, excepting the existence of a Ninja Roleblocker. I will not be lynching outside these two players today.

[frog]

He knew all of the actions before hand, and he made it seem like I had basically a for sure guilty on Eddie.

If I remember correctly, I told you that you could trust your result before you claimed it, so this point is disingenuous

I'm going to share, but I want people to chime in and see people potentially freak out. Also, if I was blocked by town of some sort, then my action means nothing.

I think it would be best to proceed as if your result was genuine

Also, anyone not yet convinced of my role should go back and read my interactions with Eddie on Day Two. It should be very clear that I knew he had visited rb Night One.

Flavor Leaf, how do you explain the absence of a kill last night?

Are you still claiming that traitor was targeted Night Three in order to explain the lack of a kill? Because, if so, then your criticism of Una for assuming three scum is hypocritical, and, if not, then the most credible reason is that Eddie protected me from a kill.

[frog]

Flavor Leaf, the whole 'this is not how town acts' when it blatantly is is becoming tiresome and looks very much like scum realising they have been caught

[frog]

Flavor Leaf, how do you explain the absence of a kill last night?

[frog]

Also, as scum, Wave being killed basically insured you guys to win when facing me.

This is blatantly not true, considering wavemode was leaning on lynching Eddie over you yesterday. If anything, his death implicates you rather than me

We lynch FL today, because GR is confirmed to not have a PR.

The first vote's down, so time's a-wastin'

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This is perhaps the first day I can advocate a fast lynch

[frog]

There was no way town had a full doctor either, but they did

[frog]

Ceci n'est pas une perspective slip

I would say 'try again' but I know you will and I have things to do today that do not involve calling out repetitive nonsense

[frog]

There was no way town had a full doctor either, but they did

he's claiming odd night watcher, with an even night tracker flip, and expects a full role cop in this game. Yeah, okay.

He's claiming Loyal Jack-of-all-Trades with two protective abilities, with a two-shot commuter and a full doctor in this game. Yeah, okay.

[frog]

He's claiming Loyal Jack-of-all-Trades with two protective abilities, with a two-shot commuter and a full doctor in this game. Yeah, okay.

And look, his night action is confirmed.
Otherwise I would be dead.

His night action is confirmed by you, and you are unconfirmed by me

We can go in circles all day if you would like

There was no way town had a full doctor either, but they did

he's claiming odd night watcher, with an even night tracker flip, and expects a full role cop in this game. Yeah, okay.

He's claiming Loyal Jack-of-all-Trades with two protective abilities, with a two-shot commuter and a full doctor in this game. Yeah, okay.

protective roles are weaker than investigative, especially in this game. It's a thrill on a no kill setup. That's why there's a weak role and a SK: to counterbalance multiple no kill scenarios.

He's claiming Loyal Jack-of-all-Trades with one investigative ability, with an even night tracker flip, and expects a rolecop in this game. Yeah, okay.

Wherever you place the emphasis or locate the value, your claims are far more far-fetched than mine

[frog]

I have to go and do something productive, so until I return, everyone please assume that my responses to Game Replacement and Flavor Leaf are pithy and denigratory. Thanks

[frog]

He's claiming Loyal Jack-of-all-Trades with one investigative ability, with an even night tracker flip, and

expects a rolecop in this game.

Yeah, okay.

FUCKING SLIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOUR PARTNER CLAIMED ROLE COP!!!!!!

Congratulations, you are the king of misrepresentation.

His night action is confirmed by you, and you are unconfirmed by me

GR shouldn't be unconfirmed to Frog. GR should be more confirmed than anyone else in this game to Frog.

His night action is confirmed by you, and you are unconfirmed by me

How the fuck am I unconfirmed if I am countering your visit on FL? At the least I'm confirmed scum...
That's scum. Easy.

Actually, Flavor Leaf has some competition for that title. Unconfirmed in the sense of negates your claim. Perhaps 'deconfirmed' is the correct word, but the sense is obvious. Besides, I have stated before that Game Replacement is confirmed scum from my point of view. See: my first post of the day

See you later. Try not to confuse words and sentences so much they lose all meaning before I return

[frog]

I will be around for a short while. Any questions for me?

[frog]

Both are confirmed scum from my point of view (unless we're arguing for Ninja Roleblockers) and unless Una is scum with them then I know that GR is Vanilla whereas FL might have a power role, so FL is the better lynch

[frog]

They are both confirmed scum to me

Flavor Leaf effectively claimed a guilty on a confirmed town player, and I know he was not roleblocked
Game Replacement claimed to have visited Flavor Leaf Night Three, which I know he did not do

[frog]

Because I believe the likelihood of a scum role that can play FL like that existing is infinitesimally small

The only reason, in a vacuum, why I should lynch Game Replacement over Flavor Leaf is if I think something like Ninja Roleblocker exists

I realise this is essentially a repetition of what I said before, but there is not much more to say

I'm obviously not against a GR lynch

[frog]

What do you think the chance of scum having a role that could confound Night 3's results to the extent that both I and FL are town is?

[frog]

Whaaaat? Why are you only seeing th emore complicated option even after I pointed out easier ones.

What are the easier ones? If by jailkeeper you are suggesting I could have been jailed Night 3, then that is incorrect, as the wording for 'nobody visited' and 'action failed' differs in my Role PM. I concede that a rolestopper would solve Night 3 if Flavor Leaf and I were both town, but they would have to be a scum rolestopper since town has not claimed one yet, and Flavor Leaf would be the likeliest candidate for that given the claim.

I am perfectly happy to give you that common courtesy; I was answering your question, not contending with your approach. If people are more united about lynching Game Replacement than Flavor Leaf, which they seem to be, I have no reason to impede that.

VOTE: Game Replacement

[frog]

I concede that a rolestopper would solve Night 3 if Flavor Leaf and I were both town, but they would have to be a scum rolestopper since town has not claimed one yet, and Flavor Leaf would be the likeliest candidate for that given the claim.

Hang on, this makes absolutely no sense either

Regardless

[frog]

No, I'm suggesting, as I discussed yesterday, that it would be impossible for Flavor, if he is telling the truth, to tell the difference between a Loyalty effect on scum from a Jailed target.
So, if EDDIE had been jailed (or something similar of which there are many options) it grants Flavor the result he claimed while being town, and you the result you claimed while being town, yet (from your perspective) it remains impossible for GR to be town - which makes you voting Flavor first objectively bad play if you're town.

This has a slight problem, the issue being with the night kill. Eddie claimed to have protected me Night 3. If Flavor Leaf and I are town, then scum must have not submitted a kill Night 3 for your theory to work, something I think is unlikely.

Although I do recognise we are talking about orders of unlikeliness here, and I see your point about Game Replacement being the more secure lynch

[frog]

Everything from our perspectives is guaranteed to say one thing, and every post you quote as 'evidence' will be filtered through that perspective to the point where it is almost meaningless. You are no more immune to this than me, Una, or GR

[frog]

Also, try to discredit my RoleCop claim one more time, I left my most plain crumb out, the one that basically confirms I had checked Mario night one.

This shows that you set up a fake claim. Also, I could say that same thing to you about my crumbing, except mine isn't setting up an obvious fake claim like yours. Mine proves I targeted Frog night 1.

Mine proves I targeted rb Night One. We can't all be town together, yet we all have 'proof'. See above post

[frog]

My results supported both of you, which is why I wanted a longer Day 4!

[frog]

This is a completely useless and circular discussion, and town would behave in a way that didn't multiply worthless content

[frog]

This is a completely useless and circular discussion, and town would behave in a way that didn't multiply worthless content

So you're calling Una scum now too? Because that's the reason this is happening.

The level of activity suggests that you are the reason this is happening, but, regardless, we're all participating

I maintain the best thing the four of us can do is speak only when we are spoken to

[frog]

I have made so many actual cases on the potential scum teams, while all Una/Frog do is "oh, from my perspective" cases I have done that, sure, but

I have also actually made cases that don't rely on perspective

, which is something they haven't done at all.

No you have not

[frog]

What I mean by that: every time you say 'town does not do this' you mean 'frog did it and he is scum from my perspective so town does not do this'

[frog]

Anyway what do ppl want from me?

Eventually a vote, but incisive questions would help out thor and TiaM and give the four of us something to do rather than going 'nuh-huh' 'yuh-huh' to each other repeatedly

[frog]

I think Flavor knew that Eddie was town and got him lynched on purpose and now is trying to save his skin.

He's town otherwise i would have died.
Una is shitting Scum every where. And I'm counting on your hammer yesterday being town.

Wrong, you never visited him...

[frog]

pedit:incisive questions?

If you have any doubts anywhere, want a post explained, want actions explained, and so on, now is a good time to ask

[frog]

If you wanted a case by me on Flavor Leaf and Game Replacement, for instance, I can provide, but I do think your comments here

i mean at this point its whoever u believe more right? like no one is really confscum from my perspective its just a series of 1v1s.

Are essentially correct

[frog]

I think Flavor knew that Eddie was town and got him lynched on purpose and now is trying to save his skin.

He's town otherwise i would have died.
Una is shitting Scum every where. And I'm counting on your hammer yesterday being town.

Wrong, you never visited him...

I did, and yet you even called me unconfirmed after my claim. You already slipped up.

It was a fierce competition, but you wrested the 'King of Misrepresentation' crown from Flavor Leaf. Well done!

[frog]

Game Replacement's narrative requires a basically pacifistic scum

Not only the failure to push any wagon, but also, on at least one night, deliberately not killing anybody

They have no way of explaining the lack of a death on Night 3, which is pretty significant along with all the other oddities with their claims

[frog]

It was a fierce competition, but you wrested the 'King of Misrepresentation' crown from Flavor Leaf. Well done!

How is you saying I'm unconfirmed misrepresentation?

Context?

The deliberate removal of which is a component of the definition of misrepresentation?

You are so good and you do not even know it, I can already tell the coronation will be grand

[frog]

Hey, now you know how I feel

(Also, I know you are going with 'no kill' or 'traitor', but, in a vacuum, that is a lot less likely than 'doctor', is it not?)

[frog]

If anyone has been flip-flopping, it is Flavor Leaf, who accused us of being scummy for pushing TiaM as third scum earlier and who now has him as scum himself, and Game Replacement, who changed his claim from Day 4 to Day 5

'Try again?'

[frog]

Hey, now you know how I feel

(Also, I know you are going with 'no kill' or 'traitor', but, in a vacuum, that is a lot less likely than 'doctor', is it not?)

sure, that's why you're using it to mislynch me.

Or why you are scum?

[frog]

@Two - Flavor Leaf looks worse on vote counts than Paul considering play and action claims

[frog]

Have any of you other three realised this is a complete waste of time yet, or are you committed to shouting into a void?

[frog]

Why is there 100% scum on your wagon, but 0% on the others?

Oh, of course, because of your perspective, my bad

(Everyone else, think how unlikely that is)

[frog]

It's only a waste of time because

I am making actual cases on you guys

, and you just try to discredit them. I made an ACTUAL case on Una a few pages ago, and two posts later you said I was only making perspective cases, like you guys, which is a blatant PROVEN lie.

No you are not

Proof does not become any more proof-y when you capitalise it

[frog]

Why is there 100% scum on your wagon, but 0% on the others?

Oh, of course, because of your perspective, my bad

(Everyone else, think how unlikely that is)

Where are you getting 0% from? That's another blatant lie.

Sorry, who was third scum to you again? I admit I am losing track

[frog]

Dunker wagon had one of Two or Paul.
Eddie wagon had one of Two or Paul.
Mario's wagon had Two and Paul on it, along with Una's apparent knowing Mario was lying yet wasn't on.
Mulch wagon had one of Two and Paul.

*using Two when it could have been Rb.

You guys are purposefully staying off the wagons because of all the

strong town personalities

in this game tearing each other part, while using Paul to help out with wherever you need.

I laughed, talk about retroactive reasoning

Alright, so your narrative is now that Paul pushed every single mislynch in the game as scum, is that it?

[frog]

Frog is calling this a perspective case. This game is over. They are actually caught out lying and contradicting themselves.

Yes, I am, because your first line of reasoning is 'this player is scum', and it has been for the entire day

You assume a player is scummy, and, surprise, surprise, you find something scummy in their ISO

You could do this for any player in this game, any player ever, if they were locked in a one against one

[frog]

@Frog - Why don't you call out your buddy for doing the same exact thing but on a higher level?

Why don't you call out your buddy for doing the exact same thing but on a higher level?

[frog]

I would say X-Shot makes the most sense

Pity we don't have one of those

[frog]

Can you 2 just shut up?

When you do, I shall gladly follow

[frog]

@Thor

My last 3 Scum games (minus where I was copped night 1 in an open)

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=72405&user_select[]=28368

Scum buddy died and I was only on the final lynch with town. All the other times I never lynched scum

viewtopic.php?p=9401955#p9401955

I was on the Mlulch town lynch. Then I pushed hard for my buddy day 2 when I didn't have to.

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=72441
Lynched my buddy hard. Never lynched town.

Now look at all my town games. I always lynch town, I'm always pushed as Scum in LyLo. Had about 5 LyLo in the last 2 months abd every time Im a scum fake claim or push.

Not killing town as Scum is always a town tell.
That's only my last 3 Scum games. You can look at all the rest on that account alone.

Did you no-kill in any of those games?

[frog]

There is no reason for me to change from x shot to odd night as Scum.

Fake claim

Yawn

[frog]

That is literally just WIFOM

[frog]

You want to be the king of that, too?

[frog]

I did indeed.
I've also only no killed in 1 game as Scum in my entire time I believe.

So you must be overdue for a second?

[frog]

So we're essentially in a 3v3 I'd say at this point. FL/GR/Two vs Frog/Una/Paul, with Paul lurking waiting for a hammer likely.

Wait a minute.
Did you just confirm TiaM as your scumbuddy?

FUCKING SLIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[frog]

Not at all. But I love that's your only argument.
My entire meta as Scum or town has not changed in 2+ years over 6 accounts. Why would it change in this one game?

Contradicting yourself? You have done it before, and recently. If your meta has changed before, why might it not change again?

[frog]

That is such a hypocritical accusation

[frog]

By the way, if you cannot tell, I am being facetious, because there is no other response to people claiming perspective and confirmation bias for objective, provable truth

None of us are going anywhere, none of us have ever been going anywhere

You will still be going when I wake up tomorrow morning

Good night!

[frog]

What it comes down to for me is Una and Frog are providing a much worse argument than Flavor is. Even though I distrust Flavor because of day 4, I am inclined to vote with him.

What do you find particularly convincing? For someone who places a lot of significance on players being on town wagons, why are you disregarding Flavor Leaf's and Game Replacement's presence on several of them?

[frog]

What it comes down to for me is Una and Frog are providing a much worse argument than Flavor is. Even though I distrust Flavor because of day 4, I am inclined to vote with him.

What do you find particularly convincing? For someone who places a lot of significance on players being on town wagons, why are you disregarding Flavor Leaf's and Game Replacement's presence on several of them?

You've only been on 1 lynch wagon, and it was town. So 100% of the lynches you've been on were town. Mario was an actual scum, and you are playing a game where you are staying off the wagons. Una knew Mario was lying and was still giving him a chance. You've had Paul pushing the lynches through anyways.

I have not been on any lynch wagons.

'Try again'

Also, the way you are trying to convince Two, even though if you were town, at this point he would be confirmed scum to you. The fact you were still trying to convince him shows Thor that our 3 is the town 3.

As much as I am trying to convince TiaM, I am also trying to sort him. It was something of a turnabout, don't you think? I am also not a fan of you arbitrarily dividing the three remaining players. The only dividing lines today are between Una and I and you and GR.

[frog]

h fuck, that's even scummier. I thought you were on Mulch, lol. Purposefully staying off wagons.

So scummy, staying off wagons on players I townread and players that have claimed power roles...

Of course, lolhammering power roles is something town does, right?

[frog]

Scum like to line up mis lynches. Was you in threat to him killing you, Una or NTRP? No.

This scum apparently doesn't like to line up mislynches, considering they haven't been on any!

Really, for every contrived argument you can make about our voting patterns being scummy, we can point to you being on town and PR wagons

For every claim that you breadcrumbed, we can claim we breadcrumbed at least as much as you

For every piece of night action WIFOM, we can point to yours

It really is that simple

[frog]

Scum like to line up mis lynches. Was you in threat to him killing you, Una or NTRP? No.

This scum apparently doesn't like to line up mislynches, considering they haven't been on any!

Really, for every contrived argument you can make about our voting patterns being scummy, we can point to you being on town and PR wagons

For every claim that you breadcrumbed, we can claim we breadcrumbed at least as much as you

For every piece of night action WIFOM, we can point to yours

It really is that simple

Tell Una that in reverse. Una does it more than I do. Again, I'm not doing this for any of you guys. I'm doing this for the remaining town. You guys state all this seemingly talking directly to us in a way that comes off as trying to convince us that you aren't scum when we already know you are.

Not quite, I am calling out your nonsensical claims for what they are, rather than the objective proof you claim them to be

This helps town

Your presentation does not

[frog]

You guys both just ask questions that you don't want an answer to. You guys don't make cases. You guys don't do anything but discredit attempts without showing why at all it would discredit.


Again, you don't have to respond to me. This isn't for you. It was never for you guys. That is the difference between the two sides.

We ask questions

That you avoid, misrepresent, or WIFOM with

We make cases

That you deny are cases, whilst claiming that status for your own

We talk to the other three players and answer their questions

That you are inclined to sidestep

'That is the difference between the two sides'. There are no differences between our two sides, save our claims, claimed actions, and votes. You should know that, from a neutral perspective (one none of us have any access to) what you claim is provably true is objectively not.

Do you want me to illustrate this for you?

[frog]

You wouldn't be stating them as nonsensical if you were town.

I may as well illustrate, since you have provided me with an example.

Is it

possible

for town to perform the action described above?

Yes, it is. It is not provably the case that town would

never

call a claim from someone they know, from perspective, is scum nonsensical.

This is what I mean, you present this as objective truth when it demonstrably is not

[frog]

Let me try again. Please confirm or deny whether you think the following statement, in a vacuum, is true:

Town never calls a case from another player nonsensical

[frog]

You don't make non conf bias cases. I have been.

'Nuh-huh' 'Yuh-huh'

You do everything you accuse me of

[frog]

Let me try again. Please confirm or deny whether you think the following statement, in a vacuum, is true:

Town never calls a case from another player nonsensical

false, but that's not what is happening here.


The actual statement should be.

"

Knowing my role as conftown and the other side as confscum

, the town never calls a case from another player nonsensical."

True. It's not nonsensical; it would make perfect sense. They would be scum, which inherently makes a lot of sense. Your choice of wording it as nonsensical is scum discrediting a case on town because "it doesn't make sense". If town were to know a player is scum, the cases aren't nonsensical, they're just coming from scum, which is as much sense as you can get.

Thank you. You have just proved and acknowledged my point.

Everything we say, inevitably and unavoidably, comes from our perspectives. Hence nothing we ever claim for truth is objectively, provably so.

I rest my case

[frog]

Not at all, you have proved mine.

By admitted that your conclusions are prior to your reasoning, you have stated that every case you produce today embraces circular logic. They are, therefore, nonsense. You are now trying to hide behind semantics to the significance of something you have so clearly and unambiguously stated.

There is no further need for interaction. Of course you are scum trying to mislynch to me; that is what my perspective dictates. Of course I am scum trying to mislynch to you; that is what your perspective dictates. Nothing either of us can say can be valid, rendering any claims, cases, comments, whatever, of precisely zero consequence.

This is why I have been advocating 'speak only when spoken to'. Now that we agree on something, even if you do not want to admit it, there is no reason to continue this.

Flavor Leaf believes that nothing he has said today proceeds from anything other than the assumption that UnaBombaH and I are scum. The assumption that certain other players are scum is not unique to him. When reading his posts, be aware that every 'town does not do this' or 'this is scummy' has the phrase 'assuming they are scum' behind it.

That is all. Remaining three, we are watching.

[frog]

I'll need to chew to this.
I sort of might have checked frog or Boon last night, and I want to hear from him before I speak my mind.

What do you need to hear?

I watched you last night, and nobody visited you.

[frog]

I guarantee it was planned scum theatre. It's why GR went Una, and Frog went me. It let them setup for a potential quick hammer, and if they lost yesterday, they'd set themselves up to still win.

I was hoping with the replacement that you would stop pushing selective and tendentious interpretations of previous days' activity, but I can see that that will not be the case. With the demolition of so much of your 'truth' yesterday, there is a whole lot more you need to explain your 'scum theatre'. I would say I'm looking forward to it, but since I predict a repeat of yesterday's interactions...

I would like to hear from Paul and especially thor before I vote, but no surprises where it would currently go!

[frog]

Why would my replacement change anything? I'm still the same person.

Honestly, I can't explain crap. All I know is I'm town and some major fuckery is going on.

I don't know, I thought you might have been trying a different style of posting or something.

Before the fireworks start, can we commit to keeping it civil?

[frog]

[frog]

It's frog and Paul.

Frog and GR came into yesterday voting myself and Una respectively despite having direct counters on each other. This set themselves on both sides, both pushing potential mislynches. Una's case on me about why he'd rather lynch me than GR was perfect for them. It also explained why GR went to Eddie and decided to clear me.

In the scenario where I am scum with Game Replacement, why would he produce a claim that conflicted with mine? Why would he claim at all? And that when it would be very easy to mislynch you the next day, with only thor standing in the way of a lynch and TwoInAMillion and Una actively pushing for it?

Face it: there are serious problems with me as a partner for GR.

Why is your alignment for certain?
Considering the kills I have to accept that scum is making poor decisions - which pretty much removes you from confirmed town in a hot second.

Oh my.. I don't feel like saying anything after all.

So tell me how we solve the game from here if we assume the scum isn't even trying to play optimally?

Also tell me your opinion on the likelyhood of Scum!JOAT vs Scum!Watcher.

I assume from these questions that you investigated Boon, and you received a JOAT result. It goes without saying that I think we have a Scum!JOAT.

Two things for you to consider if you have doubts:
1) Scum!JOAT could well be lying about the roles they possess, so don't assume rolestop/JK/cop in your assessment. None of Boon's actions are proven.
2) We already have an Even-Night Tracker flip. An Odd-Night Watcher makes sense with that role.

[frog]

A scum oddnight watcher makes sense with that.

And Thor brought up their being arguments for you being scum with him as well, so don't just try and WIFOM discredit me.

In what universe would a Scum!Odd-Night Watcher be matched with a Town!Even-Night Tracker given what we know about the setup so far?

Thor is perfectly correct in saying that there are arguments, but that does not mean you can advance anything without explanation. If Game Replacement and I created the master conspiracy you allege, you still need to demonstrate how it is credible.

The fact is it would have been very easy for Scum!frog and Scum!GR to win the game earlier and with much less hassle than what occurred on Days 4 and 5.

There are problems with everyone in this game to be scum with GR, so that's not really an excuse.

I cannot agree that this is the case. You fit perfectly well as a partner for GR.

[frog]

I am intrigued; why do you think, from an outside perspective as far as that is possible, that there is a problem with you being a partner for GR?

[frog]

I am intrigued; why do you think, from an outside perspective as far as that is possible, that there is a problem with you being a partner for GR?

I don't. I make perfect sense as a perfect for scum with GR. Pretty sure that was planned by scum in case you didn't win yesterday. You think scum just went all out for no reason yesterday without any idea of how they were going to go about had they lost?

Given yesterday was probably LyLo, it would make sense for scum to have gone all out, yes

[frog]

I am intrigued; why do you think, from an outside perspective as far as that is possible, that there is a problem with you being a partner for GR?

I don't. I make perfect sense as a perfect for scum with GR. Pretty sure that was

planned by scum

in case you didn't win yesterday. You think scum just went all out for no reason yesterday without any idea of how they were going to go about had they lost?

I just do not understand how you think that scum creating an inefficient plan that relies on an unpredictable and uninfluenceable confluence of events is more likely than taking a much less complicated win a day earlier

I do know it is perspective, but these claims are wild

[frog]

Why don't you feel like saying anything due to me asking why your alignment is certain? (I am going to presume that because you didn't answer with a case that you agree with me - feel free to correct me if this is an incorrect presumption)

I think it may be because your comment could be read as insulting

[frog]

I'll drive home and try to clarify my thoughts to you all in few hours.

I'm relieved we got through yesterday, at least my alignment should now be for certain.

Why is your alignment for certain?
Considering the kills I have to accept that scum is making poor decisions - which pretty much removes you from confirmed town in a hot second.

The way I read it was 'scum is stupid, which means you might not be town', with the implication Una is bad at scum

Not intended that way, I'm sure, but on my first reading I did think 'damn, that's savage'

[frog]

@frog - incidentally, as I just realized this, why aren't you voting Boon yet? Are you questioning your statements from yesterday? Isn't the fact that he's voting you and you haven't been quickhammered proof of his scum role to you?m Or are you questioning the narrative from yesterday? If so - why aren't you asking more questions?

I was waiting for Una to claim his result, because he hinted that it required thinking over. I was also waiting for a quickhammer on the off chance Boon was town. Since it appears today is still between him and me, and since everybody has been active a few times since Boon's vote, you are correct that I now have no reason to hold off.

VOTE: Boonskiies

[frog]

I am finding it very hard to follow some of your thought processes

Is there any reason why you have not yet claimed your result? What has changed from yesterday to today to make you think I could be scum with Game Replacement and Boonskiies if I am alive tomorrow? Why are you holding off on voting if you do not care about other players' deducations today?

[frog]

*deductions

[frog]

Fck it, I have time to wrote now.
I'm getting frustrated with this game.

@frog: do you agree with me on the following (find it likely/reasonable):
Scumteam is Boon+Thor -> they had to kill either Paul or TiaM to leave you alive as the "mastermind" for LyLo, and they didn't afford to lose their NK last night on me.
TiaM over Paul because I intentionally made a big noise last day I was gonna check TiaM, so they would deny all the little info they can.

They believe that Boon is in a tough spot and likely lynched today, so they have to worry about the last LyLo to come.
They kill TiaM first, and then tonight they go for Paul/no-kill and leave it at a MyLo.

The choice will be between you and Thor, and either me or Paul are left to swing the hammer.

Agreedo?

I do not find what you have described all that reasonable, no.

To begin with, I do not invest the kills with special significance. I do not think they point in a particular direction, and any explanation is bound to devolve into WIFOM (why Sunlit Diamond Night 1? Why wavemode Night 4? Why TwoInAMillion Night 5?). Giving them meaning only plays into scum's hands. Far more useful things to think about are actions and interactions.

Given that, I find it absurd that anybody is suggesting that I could possibly be scum with Game Replacement and Boonskiies. There are so many problems with this team that I do not know where to begin. The notion of tomorrow being between me and another player, assuming I live, is baffling.

If you asked me which of the remaining players I think are scum, I think Boonskiies and NotTheRealPaul are the most likely. Thor's play yesterday and the day before gives me serious doubts that he is the third member of the team. Some of the possible scenarios will disappear with tonight's kill, of course.