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Post Post #33 (isolation #0) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:07 pm

Post by Heartless »

i remember when

i remember i remember when i lost my mind

there was something so pleasant about that place

even your

emotions

have an echo , in so much




space
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Post Post #40 (isolation #1) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:30 pm

Post by Heartless »

SPIFFEH

i thought u wanted to hang out
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Post Post #41 (isolation #2) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:31 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 36, Spiffeh wrote:What are all your predictions for scum?!?!?!
oh are you waiting for this?

uh.........

imperium, carytid, ahsoka

VOTE: imperium
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Post Post #43 (isolation #3) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:32 pm

Post by Heartless »

you and me....


we're finished
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Post Post #51 (isolation #4) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:55 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 48, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:
In post 31, Spiffeh wrote:I predict the scum will be camn, NoticeMeSenpai, and Prism
Well we certainly have something which could make us honorary scum... :shifty:
if it's that bad is there a reason you're not just claiming it?
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Post Post #95 (isolation #5) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:08 pm

Post by Heartless »

meh

VOTE: ginngie
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Post Post #104 (isolation #6) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:21 pm

Post by Heartless »

ginngie, what's your read on mastina?
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Post Post #106 (isolation #7) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:33 pm

Post by Heartless »

interesting

what else does your gut say?


~ I'm hungry what to eat. :( ~
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Post Post #113 (isolation #8) » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Post by Heartless »

yeah...... ok

usually when town claim neg utility like i thought mastina was attempting to do in 48, it's to boost EV by suggesting a clear action for how to deal with the neg utility. you claim hated so that no one accidentally hammers you at l-1. you claim supersaint so that if you get lynched, everyone else makes someone scummy hammer you. you claim pgo so that no one targets you. you claim miller so that cops don't investigate you.

mastina didn't do that so it's just kinda awkwardly hanging out there and the implication is that the purpose of the claim was in fact to make a full claim later look more legit (which both town and scum do) and i could see someone being skeeved out by that (because i kinda sorta was at the time too). i don't think prism's thoughts at this stage of the game are unnatural.

i do think you're making too much of a show of being on mastina's "side" here (insisting the claim is strictly nai) and i think your aggression on this angle is a little forced
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Post Post #135 (isolation #9) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:56 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 120, Ahsoka Tano wrote:Hi people!
Why am I already on people's lists of scum of I have not posted here yet?
bc alts are scum

duh
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Post Post #136 (isolation #10) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:05 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 130, Spiffeh wrote:Self voting is never ok

Also I would like to know why Caryatid's name is italicized in the vote counts

This is all I have to contribute
hmmmm... you seem bored

i have a secret scumread. you wanna guess who it is?
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Post Post #139 (isolation #11) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:35 am

Post by Heartless »

no it's not you

try again?
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Post Post #149 (isolation #12) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:14 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 144, Caryatid wrote:
In post 143, Ahsoka Tano wrote:
In post 135, Heartless wrote:
In post 120, Ahsoka Tano wrote:Hi people!
Why am I already on people's lists of scum of I have not posted here yet?
bc alts are scum

duh
How did you know?
Either the experience requirement for this game, or the fact that your e-mail is listed publically so we know who you are.
also bc u posted in the alt activation thread

i am the super sleuth
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Post Post #150 (isolation #13) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:16 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 148, Ginngie wrote:Why do people purposefully take out quote links when quoting people
they don't

kmd probably hit the quote button on camn's post then hit the other quote buttons on the topic review (those don't have links)
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Post Post #151 (isolation #14) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:18 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 140, Spiffeh wrote:camn?

I'm not good at this game
maybe maybe not

i'm going to see if tth sees what i see before saying
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Post Post #152 (isolation #15) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:21 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 146, Kmd4390 wrote:I wouldn't assume that there isn't one. Just like when scum plan their kills around tracks/watches/protects and whatever else. It's not about assuming. It's about being prepared for the possibility and I'm pretty sure mastina as scum would think about the possibility of certain roles or types of roles before doing things.
quiz:

is a vig killing someone because they're neg utility something you've seen actually happen? if so, link plz
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Post Post #157 (isolation #16) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:45 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 156, Polar Vortex wrote:more relevant things
such as.......?
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Post Post #185 (isolation #17) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:22 pm

Post by Heartless »

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Post Post #187 (isolation #18) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:02 pm

Post by Heartless »

ugh now I'M bored

TAMMY i'm working my way through a bottle of bailey's come hang out w me
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Post Post #189 (isolation #19) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:23 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 188, Imperium wrote:I think that this is a fair thing to say for a majority of people, but I don't really think it's a fair thing to say for mastina. Do you disagree?
no, i don't disagree... i don't agree either bc i don't rly know what point you're trying to make here...?

say again?
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Post Post #191 (isolation #20) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:27 pm

Post by Heartless »

are you asking me if i think mastina, as town, could do a cutsie, cheeky little softclaim like that?

yes, i do
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Post Post #202 (isolation #21) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:35 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 195, Imperium wrote:
In post 191, Heartless wrote:are you asking me if i think mastina, as town, could do a cutsie, cheeky little softclaim like that?
Kind of. Does the cutsie softclaim bother you or are you dismissing it as mastina being mastina?
the split second it happened it SORT OF pinged me but it occurred to me it could just me mastina being mastina

my larger point in what you quoted was that i don't think other people (prism in this case) being bothered by it is scummy
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Post Post #207 (isolation #22) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:44 pm

Post by Heartless »

meh

it's not to avoid embarrassment, it's to see if she gets to the same read while blinded to what it is. i find those are usually good ones.

dw i won't leave ya hanging
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Post Post #213 (isolation #23) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:52 pm

Post by Heartless »

you... got something to say to me nacho?
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Post Post #239 (isolation #24) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:50 am

Post by Heartless »

VOTE: Kmd
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Post Post #243 (isolation #25) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:53 am

Post by Heartless »

not rly
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Post Post #273 (isolation #26) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:38 am

Post by Heartless »

Hi guys, TTH here! ^_^/
I'm going to be running a few errands over the next couple hours but after that I'll be putting together a few posts and I'll around for the rest of the evening if anyone wants to talk.
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Post Post #294 (isolation #27) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:45 pm

Post by Heartless »

I'm finally here!
First things first: As you may have surmised by now, Kmd was Anti's scumread. He cited the content of as the reason for the scumread, referring to Kmd's Prism vote as a turd of a vote propped up by tells that haven't been relevant since the 00s. Anti has also said his scumread was slightly strengthened by , describing the style as "snipe-y" and the question to Spiffeh as a throwaway "faux-scumhunting" question.
I did not get the same scumread while reading the game myself, but I do not townread Kmd so I'm good with the vote being there.
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Post Post #296 (isolation #28) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:12 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 184, Polar Vortex wrote:
In post 157, Heartless wrote:
In post 156, Polar Vortex wrote:more relevant things
such as.......?
Nothing in particular. My point is that scum likes to control the game by making the discussion all about irrelevant things(for example they tend to focus on things like scumslips or put fire in 1v1s beetween townies)
I think your inability to answer Anti's question points to a fundamental weakness in your argument.
From personal experience, I think very few scum care about "controlling the game" and more about simply posting things that aren't going to get scumread. As such, the average scum tend to gravitate towards safe, conservative positions. My prediction here is that, regardless of what Notice is, scum probably townread Notice if they weighed in at all. I don't think the theory that Prism is rapacious scum after a Notice mislynch really stands up to a realistic assessment of what Prism thought he could achieve.

Now, could you be a dear and remind me why you're voting Spiffeh? I'm following the discussion and it feels you're just trying to keep pace to stay on a semantics treadmill.
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Post Post #308 (isolation #29) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:33 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 306, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:TTH prefers being scum.
Excuse me, ma'am, but what's your source for this information?
That is hilariously wrong.
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Post Post #310 (isolation #30) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:37 pm

Post by Heartless »

I'm also the one posting right now because Anti's doing other things tonight.
You think me being on for one evening is me "taking charge"?
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Post Post #312 (isolation #31) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:49 pm

Post by Heartless »

The balance is influenced by how well each of us in individually feeling about the game/mafia and even some RL factors. It's
hardly
constant, it's not always on, and it's hard work to get and stay there.
I think expecting to see the magical balance in the first 36 hours of a game with Anti coming off a black-out period and me not having had any hot games recently is unreasonable.
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Post Post #314 (isolation #32) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:17 pm

Post by Heartless »

That's nice.
Why are you voting Spiffeh?
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Post Post #328 (isolation #33) » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:53 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 317, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:Heartless I've explained my stance on already. Their posting is hollow, artificial. It lacks the strength, it lacks the drive, they should have as town. There's also a lack of whimsy. Antihero in particular is a jokester. Where's the humor? Where's the witty banter? Where's the snide remarks? Where's the snarky dialog? Where's the lightheartedness? They're just so serious. So focused. So direct. So...so unlike everything I know their towngame to be. And their stances are terrible, too. When Heartless is town they have reads I can synergize well with. What they say, what they do, it makes sense. Here, there stances do not.
if ur rly scumreading me for not being joke-y and "witty" (which i assume you're not PER SE but you're using to reinforce your read) and being "direct" and "focused", you're essentially scumreading me on the mood i'm in rn.

but ok i'll leave that there since that's all there's to say about that

we can talk about stances

my strongest scumread for a while has been kmd... which we apparently agree on so ok

i don't have a read on spiffeh yet. from context it's looking like it's a tonal / he's not doing anything read which...... i guess i can get in principle? he just hasn't done anything that i explicitly scumread yet.

atp i think maxwell has a reasonable chance of being scum here since the things they HAVE commented on have no rhyme or reason and just seem kinda thrown out there for the sake of just being... ~out there~

aside from kmd being inordinately high in the reads list and the spiffeh read decaying a little quickly for reasons that are kinda ?????, nothing cary's posted has bothered me so far. he's kinda hovering in the null zone rn. (kinda annoying he apparently knows who i am but i don't know who he is but whatev)

what nacho's posted so far is alright but i don't have a super strong feel on imperium yet since i haven't rly interacted w either head directly too much

ashoka i don't rly have a mature opinion on

everyone else i'm on the same page as you rn. i think polar vortex, ginngie, prism are town and vnb is null.
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Post Post #338 (isolation #34) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:24 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 333, Spiffeh wrote:Hey Heartless, what do you guys think of the fact that Tammy hasn't checked in yet?
haven't rly thought anything of it

why does that matter?
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Post Post #343 (isolation #35) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:55 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 335, Spiffeh wrote:For Tammy and TTH to post

Why are you voting for me?
Hi Spiffeh! ^_^
What's up?
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Post Post #344 (isolation #36) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:16 am

Post by Heartless »

Spoiler:
In post 328, Heartless wrote:my strongest scumread for a while has been kmd... which we apparently agree on so ok

i don't have a read on spiffeh yet. from context it's looking like it's a tonal / he's not doing anything read which...... i guess i can get in principle? he just hasn't done anything that i explicitly scumread yet.

atp i think maxwell has a reasonable chance of being scum here since the things they HAVE commented on have no rhyme or reason and just seem kinda thrown out there for the sake of just being... ~out there~

aside from kmd being inordinately high in the reads list and the spiffeh read decaying a little quickly for reasons that are kinda ?????, nothing cary's posted has bothered me so far. he's kinda hovering in the null zone rn. (kinda annoying he apparently knows who i am but i don't know who he is but whatev)

what nacho's posted so far is alright but i don't have a super strong feel on imperium yet since i haven't rly interacted w either head directly too much

ashoka i don't rly have a mature opinion on

everyone else i'm on the same page as you rn. i think polar vortex, ginngie, prism are town and vnb is null.

I'm largely on board with this with a few minor differences.
In Kmd's case, Anti's comment on Kmd's tells being outdated makes me think it's possible its attitudes from previous site metas are influencing the framework it's scumhunting from. At the same time, nothing Kmd has said makes me townread it and its tone doesn't particularly ring town to me so far so I'm still OK with the vote being on it.
I'm not as enchanted with Polar Vortex as Anti apparently is. I think their narrative for Prism being scum is pretty aggressively bad and I'm not stoked about them riding an RVS vote onto a popular wagon.
Cary I have a budding gut townread on from and I don't think either of Anti's concerns are
that
big of a deal even if Kmd does end up being scum.

Anti forgot to mention camn, but I liked so I've got her as more likely town than scum right now.
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Post Post #361 (isolation #37) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:34 am

Post by Heartless »

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Post Post #363 (isolation #38) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:40 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 294, Heartless wrote:I'm finally here!
First things first: As you may have surmised by now, Kmd was Anti's scumread. He cited the content of as the reason for the scumread, referring to Kmd's Prism vote as a turd of a vote propped up by tells that haven't been relevant since the 00s. Anti has also said his scumread was slightly strengthened by , describing the style as "snipe-y" and the question to Spiffeh as a throwaway "faux-scumhunting" question.
I did not get the same scumread while reading the game myself, but I do not townread Kmd so I'm good with the vote being there.
In post 344, Heartless wrote:In Kmd's case, Anti's comment on Kmd's tells being outdated makes me think it's possible its attitudes from previous site metas are influencing the framework it's scumhunting from. At the same time, nothing Kmd has said makes me townread it and its tone doesn't particularly ring town to me so far so I'm still OK with the vote being on it.
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Post Post #365 (isolation #39) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:42 am

Post by Heartless »

Sorry to take the snippy bitch route and just naked quote, but we already talked about this.
(OK, you got me I'm actually not sorry at all because I
am
a snippy bitch. But still...)
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Post Post #367 (isolation #40) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:01 am

Post by Heartless »

I'm not sure what Anti's read is inspired by.
For me, it's the contrast between Rogue One and here. You seem a lot more loose and unfiltered this game and even your trolling seems more natural as opposed to cheesy and sycophantic in Rogue One. I think it's unlikely you acquired the ability to fake that in a short amount of time.
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Post Post #368 (isolation #41) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:21 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 366, Ginngie wrote:I'm just curious what made ya'll switch from scum reading me to townreading me, not about KMD
1, gut

2, after the vote i thought your ensuing end of the conversation w camn my gut got a "too obnoxious to be scum" feel

3, i thought about ur answer to the "what's your read on mastina?" question and it wasn't rly white knight-y like i interpreted your attack on prism to be
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Post Post #370 (isolation #42) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:34 pm

Post by Heartless »

Image
Image
Image

there you go
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Post Post #407 (isolation #43) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:44 pm

Post by Heartless »

what's part 1?


~
The streets of Verona
, where lesbians abound. ~
Last edited by nancy on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #410 (isolation #44) » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:12 pm

Post by Heartless »

'kay i guess that's my next shitter read
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Post Post #430 (isolation #45) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:11 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 414, Prism wrote:Heartless's kmd read was strange, with TTH explaining Anti's read using quotes...rather than just having Anti check in himself and give the read. Feels like a really forced hydra reaction.
I was on that night and I knew Anti wasn't going to be.
You think I made that up or what?
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Post Post #431 (isolation #46) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:13 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 414, Prism wrote:The timing behind #136 is also just forced and stranged for a natural scumread.
You think engaging Spiffeh when he outright said he was bored is "forced"?
Alright-y....
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Post Post #432 (isolation #47) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:37 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 415, Prism wrote:1) Odd Progression on Spiffeh
That's
exactly
the issue Anti cited with Cary but early game reads being in flux is not necessarily scummy, See: House Arryn from King's Landing. I don't think it's as much cause for concern as you or Anti think it is.

I'll go ahead and let Cary respond to the rest of 415 but there are a couple weaknesses in the logic chain.

I gut townread 327 because my first instinct is that scum doesn't shade throw on mastina in the clumsy way they did. It's not enough for a legitimate push but it's also potentially pissing off one of the loudest mouths in the game
and
he co-opts mastina herself into it by inviting her to participate? If that's from scum, that's a surprisingly (and pointlessly) ballsy move.
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Post Post #433 (isolation #48) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:46 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 420, Prism wrote:Yeah that was a pretty good post from kmd.
Really?
Which part?
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Post Post #435 (isolation #49) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:13 am

Post by Heartless »

mastina being scum isn't something I'm entertaining right now and you shouldn't be either.
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Post Post #437 (isolation #50) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:56 am

Post by Heartless »

No
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Post Post #440 (isolation #51) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:27 am

Post by Heartless »

it's just as i suspsected

spiffeh is actually a red pepper and a twig of holly dropped into some coffee grounds
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Post Post #441 (isolation #52) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:36 am

Post by Heartless »

i think tth is especially and irrationally gunshy about calling cary on going back on spiffeh bc that's what she pushed as scum in kings landing and cary is nowhere close to moving from overall null and the spiffeh progression is indeed not accounted for in cary's posting. a playful slap at mastina with "paranoia" doesn't come off as town to me either

but i guess i better shut up before the harpies arrive to shriek about hydra dissonance so pbpbpbpbpbbppbptptbpptbpptbpt
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Post Post #442 (isolation #53) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:53 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 417, Kmd4390 wrote:Not off the top of my head, but it is basically ALWAYS discussed when someone claims negative utility so the perception that it could happen is enough that a lot of scum won't do it. Either way, I think it's much more likely that mastina claimed negative utility because mastina is negative utility than any kind of tinfoil theory that it benefits scum. If mastina is scum, the claim is probably because of something actually related to mastina's real role.
ok... has it ever occurred to you that the reason you haven't ever actually SEEN it is bc it's not actually based on anything real?

in md ppl talk about how vigs should shoot lurkers but the overwhelming majority of the time in practice, vigs shoot their scumreads (and why wouldn't they? you draw vig rarely what's the fun in just taking a flamethrower to lurkers?)

but ok that's kind of tangential to the point. you think it was THAT tinfoil that you think only scum would question mastina's claim?

i don't (and in fact i think the opposite)
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Post Post #443 (isolation #54) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:55 am

Post by Heartless »

VOTE: maxwell
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Post Post #463 (isolation #55) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:17 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 447, Spiffeh wrote:
In post 338, Heartless wrote:haven't rly thought anything of it

why does that matter?
Because Tammy being disengaged from the game will ALWAYS be the biggest and most accurate reason to scum read Imperium

Life advice
one head of hydra not being on in the first 36 hours of a game will never be a reason for anything
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Post Post #471 (isolation #56) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:23 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 459, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Why does spiffeh scum need to lurk instead of do shit, i dont remember him being bad.
because he doesn't like playing scum and i could see him lurking as scum in this playerlist

your criticism sucks
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Post Post #473 (isolation #57) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:26 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 461, Prism wrote:I'm not seeing where Anti gave that reasoning; can one of you elaborate?
In post 328, Heartless wrote:aside from kmd being inordinately high in the reads list and
the spiffeh read decaying a little quickly for reasons that are kinda ?????
, nothing cary's posted has bothered me so far. he's kinda hovering in the null zone rn. (kinda annoying he apparently knows who i am but i don't know who he is but whatev)
right here
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Post Post #475 (isolation #58) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:27 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 461, Prism wrote:I don't think the point was to throw shade on mastina. The point was to get mastina to townread them.
this

also i don't think kmd's analysis of camn was town but ok we'll see what kmd comes up with on catchup
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Post Post #480 (isolation #59) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:31 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 474, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Do I have to explain why this is scummy or do you get it
explain why this is scummy
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Post Post #483 (isolation #60) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:33 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 476, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
In post 471, Heartless wrote:
In post 459, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Why does spiffeh scum need to lurk instead of do shit, i dont remember him being bad.
because he doesn't like playing scum and i could see him lurking as scum in this playerlist

your criticism sucks
Can someone confirm/deny this for me?
from the scum pt of biochem

Subject: BIOCHEMISTRY [bad stuff pt]
Spiffeh wrote:Gdi of course I roll scum

I'm taking the bottom fakeclaim because it correlates with my role.

Remember not to slip about knowledge of other neighborhoods/scumbuddies that are in them.
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Post Post #493 (isolation #61) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:47 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 486, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Heartless can u connect that with Spiffeh's play in the game thread of biochem bc mentioning once that hes annoyed he rolled scum isnt the same thing as disliking playing scum all the time or shying away from providing content (which from skimming his iso in biochem he didnt do???)

Can someone else give actual evidence Spiff likes to avoid content as scum
i think we've gotten off track of what's actually going on here

i'm not scumcasing spiffeh. YOUR argument is "spiffeh as scum would NEVER lurk, ergo town and WAGONZ SUCKS SO MANY BALLLLZZZZ" and i'm providing evidence for an attitude he may have that may cause him to lurk as scum. unless YOU have a well established pattern of "spiffeh lurks--> town, spiffeh posts ---> scum" i still think the criticism of the spiffeh wagon on that basis is unwarranted and over-the-top

(also, for what it's worth, spiffeh's activity did take a nosedive after a while in biochem though that could be because it looked like scum was going to lose at one point and we were in the middle of finals season for a time so too many confounding factors to say)
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Post Post #496 (isolation #62) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:50 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 459, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
In post 427, camn wrote:Why is it reasonable?
It seems like an arbitrary excuse to lurk, and I would bet $1 he doesn't actually have shiz to say after they 'weigh in', which, especially considering they are both HALVES OF A HYDRA. It may or may not ever happen.. or maybe already has happened... and we don't even get to know.

SO, like, wtf.
Why does spiffeh scum need to lurk instead of do shit, i dont remember him being bad.
Anyway that wagon sucks

Pedit oh hi
i misremembered you didn't explicitly call spiffeh town so strike that part rest of my previous post stands
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Post Post #499 (isolation #63) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:54 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 497, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Spiffeh also isnt lurking here or scared of posting content, if he was there wouldnt have been several posts complaining about the state of the game and what he's waiting for
i consider several posts complaining about gamestate and what he's waiting for to be lurking

call it "active lurking" if you're hung up on semantics
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Post Post #503 (isolation #64) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:05 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 500, MaxwellPuckett wrote:I guess thats correct too but I just dont think the narrative holds up, it looks like real complaining to me?
Like thats just it

What do you think of his explanation tho
i think it's fine and plausible? i'm assuming ur referring to
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Post Post #517 (isolation #65) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:31 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 514, Spiffeh wrote:Anti, what about this playerlist makes you think I'm more likely to lurk here than the playerlists in Biochemistry or Defcon IV?
there's camn, tammycho, gin, mastina, bellaphant, and me/tth in it and i think that could plausibly demotivate you to be scum against a combination of those

iirc biochem wasn't as dense w big
egos
personalities. idk who was in defcon 4?
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Post Post #525 (isolation #66) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:44 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 521, Spiffeh wrote:This is an awful post.

The reason I said "I'm waiting for stuff to happen" was because Anti said that I seemed bored. The "build-up" that you're speaking of is nonexistent.

What exactly would have been a sufficient answer to your question? Because this post REALLY makes it seem like you were setting me up to fail. And the fact that the foundation of your scum read (beyond sheeping) seems to have been hung up in this point makes me think you were hiding behind it to justify being on my wagon.

VOTE: camn
bad vote
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Post Post #534 (isolation #67) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:51 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 360, Spiffeh wrote:I'll be here to yell at people tomorrow
i'm p sure the "buildup" came from ^this post^ and... i mean... I'M also still kinda waiting for the bass drop from you given that you've said you're waiting for tth to post and i know she's posted

i don't think camn's impatience is entirely unwarranted
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Post Post #558 (isolation #68) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:31 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 547, Spiffeh wrote:But can you give me a scenario in which I would have given a "good" answer to camp's question?
probably a reads list, or a partial one, or maybe your opinion on the latest season of rick and morty. idk ask her
In post 547, Spiffeh wrote:It's not her impatience I have a problem with, it's the fact that the whole thing stinks of her trying to set me up to fail, and I really don't see much else she's done to warrant a town read.

Are you town reading her?
not explicitly bc nothing she's done really caught my attention but tth has a townread on her and i'm goin with that since i'm not explicitly scumreading camn on anything either
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Post Post #566 (isolation #69) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:43 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 559, Spiffeh wrote:Anti what are your thoughts on my point re: Ginngie?
i think it's not particularly compelling?

i mean... i guess gin WOULD suck up to mastina if they were scum/town respectively but i also think gin would prob do the same thing as town, mastina calls gin her "protege." i don't think it's beyond gin to be in the same unexplained reads vortex as nacho and mastina.
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Post Post #567 (isolation #70) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:44 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 562, Ginngie wrote:
In post 557, Prism wrote:Ginn is playing like dogshit, yes. She seems to take pride in having literally 0 respect for herself as a player, instead relishing on just riding on Mastina and Nacho's coattails, definitely yes. But she's not scum for it.
._.
you don't get to smush-face that when you dropped your correct townread on me at mastina's word
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Post Post #573 (isolation #71) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:53 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 571, Spiffeh wrote:is a weird thing to say as scum when emotion is your friend and being passionate about something makes it more likely for you to be overlooked. I don't see why they would try to walk that back as town.
no, i think that's just a sign that max isn't an asshole
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Post Post #577 (isolation #72) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:56 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 569, Spiffeh wrote:
In post 566, Heartless wrote:i think it's not particularly compelling?

i mean... i guess gin WOULD suck up to mastina if they were scum/town respectively but i also think gin would prob do the same thing as town, mastina calls gin her "protege." i don't think it's beyond gin to be in the same unexplained reads vortex as nacho and mastina.
Ok, so how do you feel about Gin's handling of her read on me overall?
i don't think it's interesting
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Post Post #584 (isolation #73) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:02 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 582, Spiffeh wrote:You're dead to me
ok dad

talk to you next year
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Post Post #585 (isolation #74) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:04 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 583, MaxwellPuckett wrote:Look Ive had issues in the past for being a dick and im trying not to do it again
......really?

wouldn't have guessed
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Post Post #587 (isolation #75) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:06 am

Post by Heartless »

that wasn't sarcasm i was serious
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Post Post #591 (isolation #76) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:11 am

Post by Heartless »

well i can see your mistake, max, i DO have to keep up my sarcasm quota or else i'm scum
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Post Post #592 (isolation #77) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:11 am

Post by Heartless »

ok i'll stop being a bad person and go away now
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Post Post #606 (isolation #78) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:53 pm

Post by Heartless »

not drunk rn but i could start working on it?
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Post Post #613 (isolation #79) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:39 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 608, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:This is literally the way you push people as scum which you never do as town!
which way is that?
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Post Post #620 (isolation #80) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:43 pm

Post by Heartless »

tammy

just use ur right thumb

take ur left thumb off it keeps wanting to hit the v key
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Post Post #623 (isolation #81) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:45 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 615, Imperium wrote:anti i thought you were gonna get fucked up w/us
got a bottle of vodka and orange juice and i'm headed there

just let me catch up
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Post Post #626 (isolation #82) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:48 pm

Post by Heartless »

....

i certainly hope not
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Post Post #640 (isolation #83) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:56 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 635, Imperium wrote:depressingly delightful
coincidentally, that's what my tramp stamp says...
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Post Post #658 (isolation #84) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:08 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 650, Imperium wrote:I do want to remind morning me that spiffeh getting after nacho for not interacting him and thus that made him scummy and himcnot interacting with nacho in return and thinking it was insane when someone mentioned it along with saying that bad-mouthing was part of the game is something I want to talk about because it's something that I take issue with but can't quite word right now.
i mean... I'M waiting for spiffeh's moment of interaction w tth because that hasn't happened at all

atp w how long it's taking i'm assuming it'll be accompanied with an intricately choreographed dance and literal fireworks
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Post Post #659 (isolation #85) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:09 pm

Post by Heartless »

tammy, i've never hydra'd w you and been abandoned

i feel so left out right now

there's only a finite games i'm going to be able to play can we get to that eventually?
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Post Post #661 (isolation #86) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:12 pm

Post by Heartless »

you think nacho talked to you...?

that.... that shouldn't be an uncertainty

r u drinking absinthe?
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Post Post #669 (isolation #87) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Post by Heartless »

hello person who obviously knows me but i don't know them and it's kinda creeping me out
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Post Post #677 (isolation #88) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:24 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 672, Kmd4390 wrote:What, scum don't jump on easy votes anymore? Because that was what Prism's issues with mastina looked like?
no... it really wasn't...

and the fact that no one else voted mastina for it kind of proves it wasn't
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Post Post #678 (isolation #89) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:26 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 673, Imperium wrote:Seriously anyone thinking spiffeh is lynchbait needs serious reevaluations of life.
In post 674, Imperium wrote:
In post 673, Imperium wrote:Seriously anyone thinking spiffeh is lynchbait needs serious reevaluations of life.
i think spiffeh is lynchbait even if he wasn't before
OMGZORZ HYDRA DISSONANCE

/EMPHATICALLY PISSES PANTS
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Post Post #680 (isolation #90) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:28 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 679, VNB National Plan wrote:Nacho I might be the only person on mafiascum who doesn't have a hydra with you! ^_^/
i don't either

let's hydra w each other to get back at him
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Post Post #684 (isolation #91) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:35 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 682, Caryatid wrote:sorry anti. I think you will know soon enough. But short of alt slipping is there anything I can do to make it less creepy?
nah it's ok

also i might make ur doodle our new avy
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Post Post #685 (isolation #92) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 683, VNB National Plan wrote:I don't remember playing with mastina before. Is this normal? By 'this' I mean the uhhh, dramatic arguments that don't include uhhhh, facts of any kind.
yes
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Post Post #702 (isolation #93) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:43 pm

Post by Heartless »

oh wow i guess i'm famous

la dee da


~ Remind me who you are again sorry? ~
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Post Post #707 (isolation #94) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:53 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 698, Ahsoka Tano wrote:Why are we on about this though when it is completely NAI?
that's a GREAT question

why are you talking about that when you could be talking about why you're voting camn
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Post Post #713 (isolation #95) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:13 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 709, Caryatid wrote:Heartless' opinion is in 294 and I can see the sniping accusation. I don't really understand the old-tells thing. By which I don't mean "I disagree with" I mean "I don't know which old tells are meant."
that was mostly referring to kmd's role fishing accusation (which... i don't think has ever actually caught scum but that's a "tell" that used to be thrown around ALL the time, thank god that's on the decline) but the whole "mastina wouldn't claim neg utility because VIG MIGHT SHOVE A SHOTGUN UP HER ASS" is another piece of old lore that doesn't have much applicability to practice.

long and short of it is that i don't think "prism jumped on something easy" narrative is very compelling and, ironically, i think THAT'S something easy scum probably jumped on

your description of his pushes and posting as "cookie cutter" is also very apt, even to his more recent posting
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Post Post #717 (isolation #96) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:24 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 715, Caryatid wrote:I don't think Prism's pushes have been easy either.
i agree
In post 715, Caryatid wrote:Prism and Imperium are going to leap to assure me that they haven't been Impossible To FakeTM
yeah, on this note... NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE to fake as scum from anyone but there comes a point when u just have to make a judgement call on what's more likely and if u don't do that ur just going to be chronically constipated


~ That is just such excellent imagery, Anti. ~
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Post Post #722 (isolation #97) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:55 pm

Post by Heartless »

NoticeMeSenpai
Imperium, Prism
Ginngie
---
camn, Polar Vortex
(VNB National Plan, Caryatid, Spiffeh) <null zone
Ahsoka Tano
---
Kmd4390, MaxwellPuckett

where i'm at
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Post Post #769 (isolation #98) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:44 am

Post by Heartless »

Hi Spiffeh, Anti said you wanted to talk to me. :3
I'll have MS open in a tab while I'm doing other things so I'll check that periodically.
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Post Post #771 (isolation #99) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:43 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 766, Caryatid wrote:weaker player like Ahsoka1
yeah....

from the "weaker player" wording, i know i'm prob gonna get a lot of lip for low hanging fruit or whatever but ahsoka's posting has been pretty consistently unimpressive even when it's there. the camn vote is just kinda plopped there on.... something about the reaction to the self vote? the implied justification is something close to 'self votes aren't scummy, overeager scum jumping on LOOK UR GETTING CONNED'

i also think making a huge deal out of REreading ppl who have post counts that barely break double digits while not giving opinions on them off the supposed first read (kmd/vmd) AND failing to follow through is ????????
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Post Post #781 (isolation #100) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:57 pm

Post by Heartless »

i like your vote, vnb

where are you on max?
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Post Post #788 (isolation #101) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:06 pm

Post by Heartless »

but...but...but... they're "lynchbait"

they CAN'T be scum
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Post Post #842 (isolation #102) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:05 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 813, VNB National Plan wrote:Can you do me a favor and scratch nails down chalk in your ear to simulate the noise I'm making at you? If they're so lynchable they'd have a huge wagon. :V
thatsthejoke.simpsonsjpeg
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Post Post #846 (isolation #103) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:16 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 840, Polar Vortex wrote:I don't think if he was scum he'd still be the larges wagon and pretty much the only player being scrutinized, when there are people like Ashoka, Kmd, VNB, or even us, people with few posts, bad posts, easy targets for scum. The only thing that could explain scum not coming after them is that scum are fine with the current state of the game.
......or that some of those ppl you just listed ARE scum themselves.....?

why didn't that immediately occur to you?
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Post Post #847 (isolation #104) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:18 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 844, Polar Vortex wrote:Heartless, can you summarize to me why you're voting Maxwell? I saw you guys arguing about meta and a vague read you posted on him before voting him, but I don't really get it.
will do this when i get to comp
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Post Post #852 (isolation #105) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:59 am

Post by Heartless »

err???

the first vote looked like rvs to me. i don't think spiffeh was seriously pushing u until just now
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Post Post #867 (isolation #106) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:33 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 853, Spiffeh wrote:Hey Anti it's about time you go to bat for me with all the bullshit I've had to wade through
Antihero doesn't owe you anything and your manipulation displeases me.
I'll have more to say about camn later but I will go ahead and say I liked where camn's head was in the early-game Ginngie exchange following the self-vote hence my townread and the recent proceedings haven't done anything to change that.
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Post Post #897 (isolation #107) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:10 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 895, Polar Vortex wrote:
In post 894, camn wrote:Forced how?
There's no reason to suspect him so having so many people doing it is forced

~Bearbert
but.... you just said you weren't scumreading anyone from the wagon....
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Post Post #898 (isolation #108) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:17 am

Post by Heartless »

tell me, what exactly are you townreading from spiffeh?
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Post Post #915 (isolation #109) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:14 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 899, Polar Vortex wrote:
In post 897, Heartless wrote:
In post 895, Polar Vortex wrote:
In post 894, camn wrote:Forced how?
There's no reason to suspect him so having so many people doing it is forced

~Bearbert
but.... you just said you weren't scumreading anyone from the wagon....
Citation needed
In post 840, Polar Vortex wrote:As the game goes on I have a harder time seeing Spiffeh as scum. His wagon formed out of nothing on RVS and it is still our current largest wagon. That just makes no sense. I feel like it's just a snowball of bad wagon leads to bad reactions, bad reactions lead to "serious" arguments, which lead to more reaction, more arguing and so on.

I don't think if he was scum he'd still be the larges wagon and pretty much the only player being scrutinized, when there are people like Ashoka, Kmd, VNB, or even us, people with few posts, bad posts, easy targets for scum. The only thing that could explain scum not coming after them is that scum are fine with the current state of the game. Because if they weren't (if Spiffeh was scum), no way he'd be the top wagon, or the only one at least.

It worries me when I look at that wagon though, because I had a good first impression on Cam, I like Caryatid and Gingie and Senpai weren't priorities to me, but maybe they should be, because I still don't know what to make of Gingie and Senpai is still riding on a vote for "strong feelings" and hasn't really been posting lately.
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Post Post #916 (isolation #110) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:16 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 900, Polar Vortex wrote:
In post 898, Heartless wrote:tell me, what exactly are you townreading from spiffeh?
Everything lol. It makes zero sense for scum him to go after Imperium like he did. His defense also looks extremly town. Sorry for not adhering to your circlejerk though
oddly, and unnecessarily, defensive answer to the question
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Post Post #918 (isolation #111) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:20 am

Post by Heartless »

is 840 from the other head? fine

i'm dying to know who's scum from the spiffeh wagon tho
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Post Post #929 (isolation #112) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:07 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 921, Spiffeh wrote:
In post 867, Heartless wrote:Antihero doesn't owe you anything and your manipulation displeases me.
I'll have more to say about camn later but I will go ahead and say I liked where camn's head was in the early-game Ginngie exchange following the self-vote hence my townread and the recent proceedings haven't done anything to change that.
:roll:
if u have something to say, use your words and say it

a dismissive eye roll is just douchey. don't do that. you're better than that.
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Post Post #930 (isolation #113) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:08 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 926, Spiffeh wrote:
In post 698, Ahsoka Tano wrote:As much as I agree, I also disagree. Hydras are a joining of personalities, but dissonance happens. Hydras are more a dual personality extension tha an alt. You have to work things out else there will bw no agreement. And with some hydras, like Heartless, it is obvious who is in the hydra and who is talking. With new or unknown hydras it is definitely better to have heads in the sig.

Why are we on about this though when it is completely NAI?

Oh, also, I know you, Heartless. Is this not as weird as Caryatid knowing you?
I really don't like that in the face of being very behind, this is the stuff Ahsoka chooses to respond to.

I can totally see a weak scum player see me blowing up and do the bare minimum to go unnoticed and let me bury my own grave.
agreed with this
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Post Post #935 (isolation #114) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:13 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 847, Heartless wrote:
In post 844, Polar Vortex wrote:Heartless, can you summarize to me why you're voting Maxwell? I saw you guys arguing about meta and a vague read you posted on him before voting him, but I don't really get it.
will do this when i get to comp
coming back to this

i think their entrance to the game is awkward and the two haphazard reads they does throw out (prism-town, ahsoka-scum) seems to me like they're kind of thrown out there to look like they have reads. even the mealy-mouthed qualifications on the ahsoka read read a lot more like filler than a genuine attempt to try to grab onto a conclusion. you can point to them being sick and whatever and that's fine but they obviously were keeping up well enough to chide ginngie on the self-vote so why is there nothing else other than throwing out two low-risk reads? idk it's a weak entrance to me.

the other things that really sticks in my craw is this:
In post 459, MaxwellPuckett wrote:
In post 427, camn wrote:Why is it reasonable?
It seems like an arbitrary excuse to lurk, and I would bet $1 he doesn't actually have shiz to say after they 'weigh in', which, especially considering they are both HALVES OF A HYDRA. It may or may not ever happen.. or maybe already has happened... and we don't even get to know.

SO, like, wtf.
Why does spiffeh scum need to lurk instead of do shit, i dont remember him being bad.
Anyway that wagon sucks

Pedit oh hi
i don't like using that to dismiss the spiffeh wagon out of hand

in fact, i don't like them dismissing the spiffeh wagon out of hand at all. at that point the game, spiffeh was sitting on his ass and wagoning him is a legitimate method to try to pressure him into action / some sort of readable response. dismissing a spiffeh wagon feels to me like they either 1) KNOWS the wagon's on town and max can't help but let their omniscience seep through in their attitudes OR 2) they have reason to neg on the wagon because they're scum with spiffeh.

either way, i think this is coming from a scum pov.

i also think the ginngie push is lackluster (and, coincidentally, it provides a convenient reason to stop voting ahsoka...)
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Post Post #938 (isolation #115) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:20 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 934, Kmd4390 wrote:What do you think the scum benefit is to do what mastina did?
simple

to get town read
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Post Post #954 (isolation #116) » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:04 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 869, camn wrote:I forgot what they were.

Here is my lynch-pool though. For today.

VNB National Plan
Polar Vortex
MaxwellPuckett
Spiffeh, obv.
hey camn, quick question

for what reason is ashoka excluded from this?
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Post Post #979 (isolation #117) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:48 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 977, Caryatid wrote:
In post 441, Heartless wrote:i think tth is especially and irrationally gunshy about calling cary on going back on spiffeh bc that's what she pushed as scum in kings landing and cary is nowhere close to moving from overall null and the spiffeh progression is indeed not accounted for in cary's posting. a playful slap at mastina with "paranoia" doesn't come off as town to me either

but i guess i better shut up before the harpies arrive to shriek about hydra dissonance so pbpbpbpbpbbppbptptbpptbpptbpt
wait, if you're town then why does tth care about what she did when she was scum?

#fridgelogic
summary:

me: cary could be scum for [reason x]
tth: wait a second... i used [reason x] to push a townie in my last scum game
tth: therefore [reason x] is not actually scummy
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Post Post #981 (isolation #118) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:01 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 978, Caryatid wrote:The Ahsoka I know and love would be spammier than this, consistently in the top half of the playerlist as town, often among the top posters.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

if ahsoka is really the certain star wars fan i'm thinking of rn, it's p much a free scum lynch
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Post Post #983 (isolation #119) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:58 am

Post by Heartless »

VOTE: ahsoka

max is still pretty scummy but i'm near certain this is scum
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Post Post #997 (isolation #120) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:29 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 986, Spiffeh wrote:Heartless is that based off of knowing his alt?

Because if so please enlighten me.
ugghhghhhhghghhh

i don't want to be in the business of outing alts but i can't get the idea out of my head and it took my ~60% scumread to ~95%

but rly just off of play and ignoring meta i think ashokas play is pretty scummy and is very lynchworthy. let's just stick to that.
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Post Post #1009 (isolation #121) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:54 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 998, Ginngie wrote:Guys, I think Heartless is an alt
i think ur mom's an alt
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Post Post #1011 (isolation #122) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:55 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1003, Caryatid wrote:
In post 997, Heartless wrote:
In post 986, Spiffeh wrote:Heartless is that based off of knowing his alt?

Because if so please enlighten me.
ugghhghhhhghghhh

i don't want to be in the business of outing alts but i can't get the idea out of my head and it took my ~60% scumread to ~95%

but rly just off of play and ignoring meta i think ashokas play is pretty scummy and is very lynchworthy. let's just stick to that.
I'm not in the alt-outing business either, so I'll neither confirm nor deny your guess.
btw i figured out who you are and i feel stupid it took me this long
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Post Post #1013 (isolation #123) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:20 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1004, Spiffeh wrote:I agree Ahsoka Tano is scummy and worthy of being run up but I'm not gonna take someone's word for it that their original account makes them like 20 times scummier when I can't verify myself
ok then forget i said anything about the alt and i'll do the same bc i'm not 100% sure i'm right and i don't think it's a good thing to center conversation around so i kinda regret bringing it up i just feel like it clicked w me when cary said what i quoted.

putting that aside, i think ashoka is scum just on the play in this thread. don't get complacent about ashoka being the lynch bc it's far from a done deal so if u agree w me that she's scun plz vote w me
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Post Post #1049 (isolation #124) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:28 am

Post by Heartless »

So Anti told me who he thinks Ashoka is and, based on the confluence of factors he cited to arrive at his conclusion, I think it's a reasonable guess and if he's correct it would strengthen the evidence that the slot is scum. However, I think he did the right thing by not outing his guess as it wouldn't have been respectful to Ashoka's privacy and desire to escape meta. As such, we will not discuss this topic further and we'll drop the claim to the meta tell.

Besides, we think the Ashoka case, outlined in Antihero's , Spiffeh's , and Caryatid's , has enough merit to stand on its own without meta.
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Post Post #1056 (isolation #125) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:07 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 931, Spiffeh wrote:I feel like I'm being overly scrutinized for the
[redacted]
est shit (not just by you guys) while camn and Gin are just allowed to sit pretty on my wagon and when I try to point out how awful their play is I'm dismissed for equally
[redacted]
shit
I'm sorry, sweetie. :(
I don't want you to be bitter and angry, this game should be fun! Sorry I was a little curt earlier but seeing other people guilt trip Anti's one of the things that sort of gets under my skin. If I start being a bitch again just let me know I'll dial it back. ^.^

I'm going to talk about camn now. I'm going to explain my townread there in a somewhat mastina-like way and that may annoy you but I assure you I'm not trying to.

camn just exudes towniness.
And where she does it the most is the area around page 6 with the analysis of the Ginngie self-vote. I think the safe answer that scum will gravitate towards in this situation is something along the lines of it not being alignment indicative or telling and maybe some lip service about how antitown it is and how Ginngie should stop self-voting. These are "correct" and very justifiable responses to Ginngie's self vote regardless of what alignment she is. But camn's subsequent posting makes it very clear she thought the read through to arrive at a much more nuanced answer: Ginngie is tailoring scumplay towards manipulating the playerlist in order to get townread. To me, these kind of details occurring to her are the hallmark of a legitimate read which is, in turn, a hallmark of town.

I don't think your criticism of her being underwhelmed by your revelation that you're waiting to read me and Tammy has much merit. You volunteered the information that you were waiting for something mysterious to happen in , so I can definitely see where the "build up" began. In my opinion, a premature scumread on Tammy and no read on me are things that would, understandably, disappoint someone waiting for you to get your head in the game. For this reason, I think these are very natural feelings for town to have and I disagree with your assessment that they're opportunistic or scummy.
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Post Post #1065 (isolation #126) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:26 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1063, VNB National Plan wrote:*single tear of forgottenness* :cry:
Spoiler:
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Post Post #1092 (isolation #127) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:19 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1087, Spiffeh wrote:It wasn't something that I brought up myself to preemptively silence anyone that would point out my lack of contribution, like she's making it out to be.
ok. but you do see how it could be interpreted that way, right?

you did say you thought you were my secret scumread in that same post so it's very reasonable to think that the "wait and see" statement was a result of you thinking you were getting scumread

context
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Post Post #1093 (isolation #128) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:34 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1088, Spiffeh wrote:And that explanation for her vote on me didn't come until later. When I initially asked camn for her reasoning she said she was "sheeping". Her problem with my "build up" (that still barely exists btw) wasn't articulated until it became clear that her original reason wouldn't cut it. Why not mention that issue when I first asked her?
the "sheeping" response was in 336. the explanation for what exactly u were waiting for came all the way in 490.

i can understand your basic point that you don't like that apparently what you were doing wasn't good enough for camn but don't cram in stuff like this, you're just cluttering the argument
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Post Post #1094 (isolation #129) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:38 am

Post by Heartless »

oh i've been meaning to ask

camn, what's your basis for townreading kmd? is it meta... or something else?
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Post Post #1095 (isolation #130) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:51 am

Post by Heartless »

i'd also kinda like to hear why you're scumreading vnb, camn. did you say already?
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Post Post #1096 (isolation #131) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:22 am

Post by Heartless »

NoticeMeSenpai
Imperium, Prism, Spiffeh, Ginngie, Caryatid
Polar Vortex
(VNB National Plan) <null zone, but rly want to be town
(camn, kmd) <null zone
Ahsoka Tano, MaxwellPuckett

new where i'm at

i've got my own issues w camn that i'd like to talk to her about. will put together a post after work
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Post Post #1107 (isolation #132) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:14 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1106, Prism wrote:Yeah not sold on this Ahsoka wagon. Spiffeh's right in that Ahsoka's #698 leaves a lot to be desired, but that and activity are all I see. Worth pressuring and getting in the game but not currently down to lynch.
nope

nope

nope

nope

NOPE

NOPE

NOPE

ok i'm gonna nip this in the bud RIGHT FUCKING HERE bc i can already see it being oversimplified and dismissed on the oversimplification

this is NOT strictly a lurker wagon or a lurker case. again, "lurking" is NOT the entirety of the case. it's the SPECIFIC type of weakness ashoka has shown: throwing out half assed reads and promises to develop them later and then never delivering. not just that, what spiffeh saw in 698 is clear evidence ashoka is at least following the thread but declined to do anything of substance in favor of tossing a bunch of words into a response to camn's hydra rant. that suggests scum posting just to fill space, not lazy lurker town because those'll just not post at all and eventually flake out.

it's not a lurker wagon

it's not a "pressure" wagon

it's a wagon on scum
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Post Post #1109 (isolation #133) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:24 pm

Post by Heartless »

notice how i did NOT mention meta once
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Post Post #1111 (isolation #134) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:28 pm

Post by Heartless »

ok camn i'm getting to u i just have to go tickle the inside of my colon w a spatula for a while brb
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Post Post #1113 (isolation #135) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:29 pm

Post by Heartless »

yeah well your conclusion sucks
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Post Post #1116 (isolation #136) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:54 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1096, Heartless wrote:i've got my own issues w camn that i'd like to talk to her about. will put together a post after work
ok so first circling back to this
In post 851, camn wrote:
In post 838, Spiffeh wrote:camn dismisses me instead of acknowledging what I'm trying to say
Spiff- you haven't come at me from an honest place all game. Since before I even posted it was all camnisscumcamnisscum. Why should I bother engaging with YOU?

The idea that
I
am somehow tunnel-persecuting
you
is laughable.
your comeback to spiffeh accusing you of not engaging him and tunneling is to accuse him of doing it first and idk where that came from but it's not from what's gone on in this game?
In post 854, camn wrote:
In post 31, Spiffeh wrote:I predict the scum will be camn, NoticeMeSenpai, and Prism
In post 35, Spiffeh wrote:VOTE: camn
In post 140, Spiffeh wrote:
In post 136, Heartless wrote:i have a secret scumread. you wanna guess who it is?
camn?
you cited all these posts as proof he's tunneling you but post 31+35 look like rvs screwing around to me and 136 seems more like randomly farting out a name than a serious attempt to paint you as scummy. is there some other context (a previous game) where something happened between you+spiffeh that carried over here or what?

next up, this lynch pool
In post 869, camn wrote:I forgot what they were.

Here is my lynch-pool though. For today.

VNB National Plan
Polar Vortex
MaxwellPuckett
Spiffeh, obv.
ok.... i could see someone scumreading whichever one is the abrasive head of polar vortex. i disagree but whatever.

how vnb makes the list (let alone over ahsoka) is beyond me though. plz explain.

LAST the thing i asked before about kmd and why you're townreading him/his posts. MY scumread on him is softening because as he continues to post it looks to me like it's more and more possible he's just a cookie cutter and boring person all-around so i might have been scumreading something nai. i'm still not explicitly TOWNreading anything he's done so far so is there something in his meta / what do you see in kmd?
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Post Post #1118 (isolation #137) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:56 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1115, Prism wrote:
In post 1113, Heartless wrote:yeah well your conclusion sucks
You both have mentioned Ahsoka's main as a reinforcement of the scumread, significantly so. You don't want to talk about the meta because you know utilizing it in debate requires outing Ahsoka, okay, that's fine.

Sticking your head in the sand and expecting me to gather the same level of certainty, without it, on my end though is irrational.
you can't see or hear me rn but i'm making fart noises with my mouth at you
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Post Post #1128 (isolation #138) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1122, camn wrote:Part of the reason some people have a hard time reading me is this: I suck early in the game. I KNOW I suck. so I take a pretty straightforward strategy regardless of alignment.. I try and create a gamestate where I can win. Alsmost always this means a gamestate of poeple who I know, who I can read, and whose reactions I can rely on. I want predictability in mid- and late-game.... and that is the shining northstar of my early game. (side note- That gamestate ADDITIONALLY is a state where I am ALIVE and not nightkilled. Read into that what you will!)
It is rare when I have a HARD scumread early. Mostly I have a quantum-entagled scumread on EVERYONE, along with a townread on EVERYONE. So I do that ^^.
...

i vacillate between thinking that's awful and thinking it's brilliant.

maybe it's brilliantly awful?
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Post Post #1129 (isolation #139) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:39 pm

Post by Heartless »

so i'm assuming we're now going to wait 48-72 hours at a time for ahsoka to post orrrrrrrrrrrr.............. what?

i mean... don't get me wrong that sounds like a BLAST so OBVIOUSLY i'm down but everyone else is cool w that?
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Post Post #1133 (isolation #140) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:46 pm

Post by Heartless »

sounds like you had a better day than me

the most fun thing i did today was nearly poison myself with a lethal toxin that readily absorbs through skin
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Post Post #1194 (isolation #141) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:19 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1177, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:Sure it's probably a stupid read but it's also one which I don't really feel like I should feel stupid for having.
In post 1170, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:
In post 1062, camn wrote:VOTE: AHSOKA TANO
I have no energy to fight this and even if I did I'm not entirely sure I'd want to but even so that said I'm just.
sigh.
Not happy with this.
Not optimistic it'll flip scum and even if it did not optimistic it'll actually do anything to help us.
what the fuck ever, mastina. seeya on the other side of the scum flip.
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Post Post #1195 (isolation #142) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:28 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1182, camn wrote:Plus, if Ahsoka doesn't start acting town I'm back on that wagon for reals
well ok she failed to show yesterday when she said she would but i don't know does she have to outright come out and explicitly SAY she's avoiding the thread for you ppl to catch on ....?
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Post Post #1234 (isolation #143) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:06 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1196, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:has no meta on them as a player
so i'm doing the whole winkwink-im-not-talking-about-who-ahsoku-is but this is flat out not true
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Post Post #1238 (isolation #144) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:17 am

Post by Heartless »

what do you not like?
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Post Post #1240 (isolation #145) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:23 am

Post by Heartless »

ok i see my mistake

a colon after "gamestate" would've made that clearer
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Post Post #1248 (isolation #146) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:32 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1249, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:
In post 1244, Heartless wrote:ok i see my mistake

a colon after "gamestate" would've made that clearer
My bad.

And to answer your question it feels as though it's a push that is over justified on your end but with reasoning that doesn't have any strong backing. Especially not strong enough for your certainty in the post that first pinged me when I entered the game tonight.
you should read the whole thread + sequence of events to get context
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Post Post #1249 (isolation #147) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:36 am

Post by Heartless »

also if u disagree w me that it's weird af to make a big deal out of doing something trivial and then not even follow up on THAT and using that as a way to dodge elaborating on positions, idk what common ground there is to be had here
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Post Post #1252 (isolation #148) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:41 am

Post by Heartless »

ok then would u do me a solid and not scream i'm scum and call for my lynch based on incomplete information?
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Post Post #1253 (isolation #149) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:42 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1255, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:Why is it that you've backtracked here to "weird af" when before you seemed convinced they were flipping scum?
that's not a backtrack....
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Post Post #1255 (isolation #150) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:42 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1255, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:I think that's a personality trait.
youre wrong
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Post Post #1258 (isolation #151) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:51 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1261, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:
In post 1257, Heartless wrote:
In post 1255, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:Why is it that you've backtracked here to "weird af" when before you seemed convinced they were flipping scum?
that's not a backtrack....
I don't consider weird to be in the same category as scummy. Sorry I should allow more room for using the terms interchangeably. It's just you asked me why I was scumreading you and I'm trying my best to point out what issues I have.
i asked BEFORE you crammed in that "backtrack" jab

if you say i'm pushing "personality" i counter with "bullshit, substituting fluff for content isn't personality"
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Post Post #1263 (isolation #152) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:32 am

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In post 1264, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:I feel as though you're being really confrontational right now over something that is a non issue,
that's what you signed on for when you called me scum wo reading the thread, pal

you don't get to dictate how i respond to it and if ur going to tell me i'm scummy for responding to it then that's something else i'll get "confrontational" about
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Post Post #1265 (isolation #153) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:34 am

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i think im gonna leave now
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Post Post #1277 (isolation #154) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:59 am

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In post 1271, Imperium wrote:Oh I thought anti was replacing out and I was bummed.
No, you were right the first time. He thinks he's going to be too toxic to stay and I just spent the last half hour trying to talk him out of it but I don't know if it did any good, we left it at "wait and see how he's feeling later." I'm fighting a pretty nasty migraine so I can't do anything right this very second but I'm going to read the thread later tonight for myself and see what I can do to help here, if anything.

Is there anything else anyone's hoping to get out of this day? Let me rephrase that, is there anyone (realistic) besides Ahsoku anyone wants to pursue? If not, there's apparently night talk so I don't see the point in prolonging the inevitable and I'm ready to see a flip.
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Post Post #1286 (isolation #155) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:36 pm

Post by Heartless »

No claim?
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Post Post #1289 (isolation #156) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Post by Heartless »

OK.
If you can't be bothered to do anything then neither can I.

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Post Post #1292 (isolation #157) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:00 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1294, camn wrote:the only thing you CAN do is read the thread and come up with some brilliant scumreads.
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Post Post #1294 (isolation #158) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:00 pm

Post by Heartless »

I read Anti's interactions with Notice and I don't see anything that makes me think the problem's not just in Anti's head.

Moving on:
In post 1096, Heartless wrote:NoticeMeSenpai
Imperium, Prism, Spiffeh, Ginngie, Caryatid
Polar Vortex
(VNB National Plan) <null zone, but rly want to be town
(camn, kmd) <null zone
Ahsoka Tano, MaxwellPuckett

new where i'm at

i've got my own issues w camn that i'd like to talk to her about. will put together a post after work
Aside from camn and maybe Polar Vortex, I don't disagree with any of these off the top of my head. I'm at kind of a funky place where I have too many loosey goosey townreads on the active people and all the scumreads feel too "easy." "Easy" might not the
precise
word I want, but when there's a correlation between position on the activity summary and position on the reads list it raises the question of "why?" and I can't think of anything offhand to explain it.

I like camn's responses to Anti's posts last night and they bolstered my already pretty strong townread there. I'm with Anti on VNB being in the null zone but wanting them to be higher. Shadoweh's posts are enjoyable reads and she seems like a fun person. But I know that's not necessarily inherently town and there hasn't been a eureka moment for me yet that I can grab onto a townread on that slot. Regardless, unless Ahsoka, Leon, and KMD all town it up really hard, really quickly I wouldn't entertain lynching them today.

I'm going to run quality control on Polar Vortex, Imperium, and Ginngie. Polar Vortex is someone I don't remember being fond of last time I thought about them but admittedly I haven't been paying attention to their recent posting. Tammy posted a lot over the last few days but I haven't gotten around to examining that much and I've been reliant on Anti's Imperium read up to now. Ginngie's recent posting has been forgettable so that's another read that would be good to refresh.
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Post Post #1299 (isolation #159) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:11 pm

Post by Heartless »

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~ Is that a lesbian warrior pickle? ~
Last edited by nancy on Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #1317 (isolation #160) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:38 pm

Post by Heartless »

Ari is not who we thought it was. >.>
Anti thought it Nero Cain. Ahsoka knew who we were and apparently, via Cary knowing his identity, has an established meta of lurking as scum and posting as town. Add in the Star Wars theme to the alt (NC is an avid Star Wars fan) and Nero Cain ticks a several boxes. The posting and writing style weren't anywhere close to NC's usual but we figured he could have purposefully modified it to avoid meta.

Ari does have a reputation for lurking more as scum but reading his meta isn't as cut-and-dry as NC's is. I've seen Ari lurk as town before.

UNVOTE:

Hi Ari! ^_^ Let's talk.
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Post Post #1321 (isolation #161) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:44 pm

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In post 1315, Aristophanes wrote:Does nobody find it alarming that a lurker lynch is literally the only major wagon? Like, the only person with more than one vote is me and thats just wrong. Scum are almost definitely hiding there!
Sweetie.........
There's a wagon because you've promised to do shit and you haven't done it and you've even whiffed on softball reads like KMD who has a very short ISO.

No bullshit, please: why should anyone be townreading you?
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Post Post #1333 (isolation #162) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:03 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1327, Aristophanes wrote:
In post 1321, Heartless wrote:
In post 1315, Aristophanes wrote:Does nobody find it alarming that a lurker lynch is literally the only major wagon? Like, the only person with more than one vote is me and thats just wrong. Scum are almost definitely hiding there!
Sweetie.........
There's a wagon because you've promised to do shit and you haven't done it and you've even whiffed on softball reads like KMD who has a very short ISO.

No bullshit, please: why should anyone be townreading you?
There is no reason for anyone to townread me. I wasnt here and I'm sorry about that. I wasnt even trying. I promised things and never once went to Iso anyone.

But I don't see how that makes me the scummiest player. I simply neglected the game (sorry nancy).

Like, I get a certain level of scumread for it, TTH, but nullscum is the most I'd expect. Fullblown wagon with no counterwagon is way out there!
Up until the mass realization (accurate and otherwise) of who your main was, the lead wagon was Max so I think "no counterwagons" is a misleading and incomplete characterization of the gamestate. There are other people being scumread besides you, I think we just all got so wrapped up in the alt-hunting that your wagon got momentum fast.

But alright-y, let's go ahead and chase your premise. Where are you going?
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Post Post #1335 (isolation #163) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:18 pm

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In post 1334, Aristophanes wrote:So I either have to figure out if this was a scum bus that took the opportunity to jump off
A riveting idea!
Now what?
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Post Post #1346 (isolation #164) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:05 pm

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In post 1338, Aristophanes wrote:Camn votr came later and just seemed like a toss out. I might be on to something with Ginn/Camn.

Ill check the Max votes another time. I have to sleep now.
Day late and a dollar short, hon. Neither of those are going down today.
If you're town, your best bet now is probably a reads list before that "12%" hits zero.
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Post Post #1361 (isolation #165) » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:10 am

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In post 1359, Aristophanes wrote:Oh, and I thouggt we had like 30% left, not like 10%. And i forgot about plurality.

I'm dead by Saturday probably. Sorry I let this game down :(
I unvoted you to give you time to put together final thoughts. If all you're going to do is self-flagellate, I'll go ahead and revote you and take the flip.
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Post Post #1379 (isolation #166) » Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:24 pm

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That's annoying
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Post Post #1392 (isolation #167) » Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:55 pm

Post by Heartless »

Update: It's looking unlikely Antihero is going to post again for the rest of this game. I'll stay in with this account in case he changes his mind, just a heads up that it looks like I'm soloing this from here on out.

I know I said I would run quality control on a few slots, but I just went ahead and started from scratch.
These are townreads: NoticeMeSenpai, Imperium, VNB National Plan, camn

I caught up on Tammy's posting in Imperium and I'm impressed. While a lot of posting on the night of Saturday, August 12th was grabass, I do think there was some revealing stuff. In particular : the writing style is a hot mess and it's unclear what
exactly
is being said but from context it's obvious Tammy is comparing people's performances this game to past games to arrive at current reads. The wall posts from this week ( and ) contain solid and substantial analysis that was obviously very thoroughly thought through. Knowing that Tammy tends to flounder a little as scum, it's a reliable indicator she's town.

VNB feels town and I feel like I should have faith in this feeling. felt like a soul-baring moment and I think the unvarnished honesty of it comes of as town, town, town. (It's ironic, isn't it? Shadoweh thought she wouldn't get townread on FEE-LINGS.) I also like that they're a little paranoid of the mastina hydra but more in a I-don't-understand-but-I-
want
-to way" instead of a shitty here's-a-static-read-to-fill-the-stone-silence way.
Something else that's been bugging me for a while now is that hydra's status as a universal nullread. While Shadoweh is charismatic, it doesn't feel like anyone's trying to prop that hydra up. And that's weird to me because if you wanted to BS a townread on them it wouldn't be particularly hard to do so and I can't imagine you would get much flak for it. Is it possible Shadoweh is a smooth criminal and everyone besides me is aware of this? I suppose. But I can't help but think scum are avoiding townreading them to keep them around as a push for later on without having to backtrack on a townread.

I've already talked about camn.

These are close enough to townreads: Spiffeh, Ginngie
Ginngie hasn't done anything that's stuck out as scummy to me so I'm content to sheep Imperium's meta read on her and Anti's previous early-game read on her.
I like where Spiffeh's head's been recently, got this after , and .

(Caryatid, Polar Vortex, kmd, Leonshade, Prism)
It's getting late and I'm getting tired so I'll wrap this up for tonight by saying this is the pool I'd like to interact with to get a feel for where they are currently.
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Post Post #1397 (isolation #168) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:40 am

Post by Heartless »

In post 1395, Leonshade wrote:Been doing some catching up. I've got Imperium and Spiffeh as early townreads, based on their general activity in the thread (I'm comparing Spiffeh to Biochemistry, and Tammy to second-hand accounts of her scumplay).

NoticeMeSenpai:
How much of your play thus far has been Jae, and how much of it mastina?

Not much else to add right now. I have the special knowledge that me -> Ari was a town to town wagon switch, but I don't have any reads based on that fact, yet.
In post 1396, Leonshade wrote:
In post 983, Heartless wrote:VOTE: ahsoka

max is still pretty scummy but i'm near certain this is scum
In post 984, Caryatid wrote:VOTE: Ahsoka yeah.
In post 985, Ginngie wrote:VOTE: Ahshoka

WOO
Like there's nothing meaningful to analyze here without full context of their reads development, especially with Caryatid's statement in that everyone had Ari as a background SR. Spiffeh and camn's jump on the wagon are the same, jumping on a lurker lynch is too easy to be analysed.
It feels like you're sort of firing from the hip here so far, hon.
Why is it important to separate the Notice heads?
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Post Post #1404 (isolation #169) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:56 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 1403, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:
In post 1397, Heartless wrote:Why is it important to separate the Notice heads?
*points to Antihero's ragequit due in part to me*
...I think there's your answer right then and there. :P
That actually doesn't answer anything, Leon. Please proceed.
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Post Post #1426 (isolation #170) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:08 pm

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Post Post #2947 (isolation #171) » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:21 pm

Post by Heartless »

In post 2935, mastina wrote:Btw:
In post 193, NoticeMeSenpai wrote:camn
Imperium

Polar Vortex
Ginngie
Prism
VNB National Plan
Ahsoka Tano
MaxwellPuckett
Heartless
Caryatid
Kmd4390

Spiffeh
I always get
something
wrong. :P

Oh what a different game we'd have if I had done things in a different order (i.e., pushed KMD/Caryatid first).
.... and my name's not underlined.... why?
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