Open 694: Friends and Enemies (Game Over!)

[Egg]

Hi. I'll be caught up by the end of the RL day.

[Egg]

Gonna go page by page. If that annoys you, too bad. It's more for me than you anyway.

Page 1:
ConnorJC would definitely get my game-starter vote. The way he says he's bad at mafia feels like an excuse to write off anything scummy he does.

I like transcend for town for now but we'll see.

Page 2:
Raya is probtown for the flubber vote. Post 37 feels town too.

I like wave's questioning of transcend as coming from town. Connor's sheeping without saying he's sheeping and lack of a vote to back it up, not so much.

Wave, why'd you vote transcend?

<- never mind, you just probably aren't familiar with transcend.

Page 3:
I know I'm scumreading connor myself, but sesq's vote needs explanation because if I'm wrong there's a good chance sesq is scum instead. Also holy shit that wagon is moving fast.

Town read on raya is weakening after the connor vote and quick unvote. Still leaning town, just not as sure especially if connor is town.

Page 4:

People who've played with him, is Transcend usually this wrong this quickly?

He either changes his mind or stops trying so quickly that it doesn't really matter.

Page 5:
If connor is scum, 115 sounds like something someone would say about a buddy, so I'll look at sun in that case. 116 is a good point about echo though.

Page 6:

I'd much rather Trans stay alive for the sake of the town as he's a much better player than I am

Remember when I said connor's post sounded like an excuse for scummy play? Yeah this is the town version of that. The difference is that echo offers himself up as a lynch which lacks the basic survivalism scum tend to show. Connor's post was the exact opposite and came off very "don't lynch me lol". So yeah, echo can be town.

A lot of connor vs echo on this page isn't alignment indicitive because it's obvious they just don't see mafia the same way. You could probably say the same about sun vs transcend to a lesser extent.

Really don't like connor discrediting echo's response as ad hom and dismissing though. I felt like echo's points did a good job of addressing connor's concerns. The "calm down" comment also feels off too because it gives off the impression that echo was flailing and defensive and I didn't see any of that in echo's post.

Sesq feels really detatched on everything except that connor vote. Like she doesn't care at all about finding scum. I really feel like exactly one of connor/sesq isscum here.

Page 7:
Ugh. If that is sesq's idea of a reads list, she and I are not going to work well together if she actually is town. If she's scum it's fine because we can just lynch her.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the way sun looked up meta on transcend feels like genuine interest in his alignment which would make sun town. I also agree that 2008-09 was the golden age of mafia. Can we go back to that?

Mantichora's spamposting on this page is a lot of posts not saying much, especially the first five. I don't see how transcend got a town read on him at that point.

Page 8:
Ok, transcend is annoying me now and has stopped obvtowning.

Connor, the difference between sesq and bombcat is that sesq seems to be trying to give off the appearance of actually playing the game and I don't think bombcat gives a shit. It goes back to the survivalism thing I mentioned a minute ago.

Sesq, what about sun's play is "ass"? He seems to be doing fine to me.

Page 9:
Oh God that vote count hurts my eyes. The only three people with more than one vote on them are my town reads (transcend, sun, echo). Connor and sesq are each on one of the top two wagons. And the two players voting echo are two of the least active in the game.

I'm a little weirded out that flubber hasn't made an impression on me yet. I know he's not usually one of the top posters or anything, but his content is usually pretty straightforward and easy to have an opinion on and I just don't see that here.

Sun, why are/were you townreading mantichora?

Page 10:
This page is pretty much all echo spam, holy fuck. This is why mafia in 2017 sucks.

Page 11:
I don't like flubber saying he's going to vote wave and then waiting a little bit before actually doing it. Why not just vote him in 264?

Wtf game stole my ketchup style (even though he technically did it first). Putting it all in one post is better though. I'm surprised to see his vote land on transcend. He seemed unsure on that read. I expected a wave vote. Otherwise, that stretch of posts looked pretty good.

Page 12:
I don't like that jjh apparently caught up, but didn't immediately give any thoughts except that bombcat hadn't been voted yet.

I saw connor's early posts and the disappearing wagon act and expected to end up bitching later about the wagon being gone, but he actually does get better. Consider him a weaker scum read now than he was before.

Wave, your wall in 299 shows some pretty decent logic, but only if you are right about sun. All of your other reads seem to hinge on him being scum. That makes it ironic that one of your points against him involved confirmation bias.

Page 13:
Connor pointing out what I saw in wave's post interests me. I might have to 180 this read to a town one.

Wave, you're getting pushback from three players (four if you count me coming in later) for your post on sun. If sun is scum, only two of those players can possibly be scum and that even assumes the entire scum team would defend each other openly. Maybe the issue actually IS your case.

Page 14:
I hate to use the phrase "town vs town" because that's usually a lazy way to say "I'm not reading this back and forth or picking a side", but wave and game both seem to believe what they are saying to each other and I don't think either of them is scum.

I don't get where flubber sees wave "freaking out". He's done fine addressing the points against him.

If we're not going to get enough votes to lynch you then you're by your own admission wasting time addressing the cases on you

Are you suggesting he should ignore you?

Connor's thoughts on wave's sun case mirror my own. I'm pretty sure wave is convinced sun is scum and is trying to find buddies because that's what you do when you catch scum. Problem is, wave hasn't been proven right by a Sun flip. Yes, it's poor play because it's a premature assumption that he's basing his entire game around. But I don't think he's scum for it.

Post 15:
I'm cool with bombcat getting some pressure. I was originally reading his not giving a shit attitude as town because it lacks survivalism, but maybe he's just another transcend where he just doesn't care about the games he plays so nothing he says really means anything. Maybe some votes will shake a reaction out of him.

Page 16:
Raya, I agree with a lot of your town reads, but can you be more specific on flubber? What reasoning did you like and what feels genuine to you?

Sesq's reaction to raya's reasons for scumreading her feels unnaturally hostile. Specifically, calling it "bullshit" and "dumb" feels like sesq is a little too annoyed at some actually valid points.

Jjh, why is sesq town?

Wow. I'm done considering bomb anywhere near town or null after he calls someone out as mason and says they should be NK'd. There is absolutely no reason for town to do that. Scum fishing for masons makes perfect sense. I'll probably end up voting this.

Page 17:
Jjh, why'd you encourage bombcat on his mason reads thing?

Page 18:

Okay, so my running theory is that Bombcat is scum who has assumed I am a mason because I started pushing him instead of the wagons at the time, which were Transcend and Sunchild. My reads having them as null supported his line of thinking there. Now, this means that those two are town.He doesn't want to tell me because he has no reason that wouldn't outright prove his scum perspective.

I don't think he actually saw anything. He's just fishing. Don't take the bait.

Page 19:
Just mason fishing and reactions to the mason fishing and everyone agrees it's bad but doesn't vote bombcat...wtf?

Sesq, what's with the iphone thing? Why do you want his mason reads?

Page 20:
I actually like flubber's reaction to bombcat. Maybe I was wrong about him.

We're not policy lynching otherwise we'd probably use up all of our lynches on policy. That being said, bombcat is actually scum, not just policy lynchable.

Page 21:
Wave, that's not a scum slip from echo. That's echo misreading your post.

Echo, what is funny about bomb trying to out our only power roles? You guys can't possibly ALL be scum, holy shit.

Page 22:
Wave, a policy lynch gives plenty of info because scum love that kind of thing. But we're not going to policy lynch. Or lynch just for info. We're going to try to lynch scum.

Reads, town on top, scum on bottom:
Egg
Raya
Gamenburger
Waveform
Sunchild
Transcend
Connor
Flubber
Echo
Jjh (not scum with bomb)
Mantichora
Sesq
Bombcat

VOTE: Vote Bombcat

Fixed vote tag

[Egg]

MY NAME IS NOT WAVEFORM

And this game is feeling more and more like we will mislynch today...

That said, I do like Fen's grand entrance to the game much more than I liked GameNBurger's. Your analysis has a certain clarity to it and it goes beyond just surface-level observation of things that are already obvious to everyone. Plus you don't want to kill me which is always nice.

You do seem to scumread Sesq. As I've said before, there are likely three scum within the four {Flubbernugget, SunChild, GameNBurger, Sesq}. I'd much rather compromise on a Sesq vote than no-lynching or killing bombcat. Thoughts?

I definitely wouldn't complain if the day ended in a sesq lynch, but I think bombcat is more dangerous because he's trying to out the masons and people are actually discussing it with him.

____________________

Game, town's primary goal is to find scum. Scum's primary goal is to survive. That's why survivalism can be scummy. A lack of survivalism can be a lack of scum intent. I'd be curious to hear the logic supporting the opposite because I don't think I've hear it in nearly a decade of playing mafia.

[Egg]

Why?

[Egg]

Sesq, who is 555 directed at because I don't think anyone said bombcat is confirmed scum? 556 is also a bad idea otherwise the masons probably would have claimed by now. Talking about it is maybe worse than the idea itself. If you're town, you could be giving scum info without realizing it. But the one thing I will say is masons give us an even bigger advantage if they stay hidden because let's say we get to 7 players and then they are outted. Now we have 3 confirmed town and 4 unknowns. Odds of lynching scum are much better than if they are the first three kills and just have 7 unknown players. We want the masons around as long as possible.

Game, you're thinking of ATE (appeal to emotion) and it's debatable whether that is scummy or town. It depends on if it's genuine and even if it is genuine it's still debatable. It's only when it's fake that it's definitely scummy. By survivalism, I more mean trying to stay alive in general.

Raya, if you think the case against bombcat is spam, you must have missed him trying to out the masons.

Flubber, if you were still reading that's definitely fair. It's hard to pick that up when everyone hits submit six times in one sitting reading the thread. I can understand waiting until you are done to vote though for sure. Also thought I'd been more clear about townreading wave, so apologies if not. But yeah I do think he is town.

[Egg]

Well I don't think a lot of what you think that I think.

And I've made my point on masons.

[Egg]

Well I don't think a lot of what you think that I think.

And I've made my point on masons.

"well you're wrong"

nice way to open up a dialogue there

I mean when you start things by saying I think we have confirmed scum on day 1 and that logic is the only thing that matters, neither of which is my stance, there isn't much chance at a dialogue about that. Talk to me about bombcat. Do you actually have a read on him? I'd guess town by the way you're defending him but you haven't come right out and said that.

[Egg]

Yeah, but you put him as your top scumread

and that's just really naiive

maybe he is, probably he isnt.

Outting the masons is a pro-scum move. So yes, I think he's scum for trying to do it.

bombcat isn't trying to out the masons... he said one person was obv mason and probably wasn't even right. it's not like he's mason hunting

He's fishing for reactions.

[Egg]

Me.

[Egg]

Who are you voting eggy

Bombcat.

[Egg]

Is bomb actually scummy or do you just have an issue with him?

He's scummy. If I was policy voting, it would be too hard to choose in this game.

you're voting me with an excuse instead of a read, there's no way you think i think the masons will out because i called jjh727 a mason

You have people talking about masons. That makes it MUCH easier to tell who is or is not a mason. I'm pretty sure that was your goal. I'm not even trying to figure it out and already know of one person who can't be a mason.

This vote could be scum motivated. It's pure, self-admitted OMGUS. If it were an isolated incident I wouldn't say anything but he also has an OMGUS scum read on jjh. He could have called jjh a mason so that nobody would think anything about him dying in the night.

I agree about the OMGUS (at least on me, not sure on jjh). The last bit is interesting and not something I'd have thought of.

i am the lowest hanging fruit

Actually that would have been wave at the time I voted. If you were the easiest lynch, I wouldn't be having so much trouble pushing it.

I think egg's post 547 shows effort on a surface level sort of bordering on narrating the game, i don't think he's thinking too hard about anyone's alignment

You didn't read it then because I re-evaluated a few reads (connor and flubber come to mind) while I was reading and I feel like I made good points against sesq.

______________

V/LA until Monday night

I work 16 hour days tonight and tomorrow. Will try to check in between those shifts if the thread hasn't exploded. Busy Sunday too.

[Egg]

Bombcat, nah I found waveform's theory interesting.

Wave, I don't think bombcat would have to be stupid to do something that I hadn't thought of myself.

Sesq, you're making a lot of bad assumptions about the way I think.

Flubber, here you go:

 I'm pretty sure wave is convinced sun is scum and is trying to find buddies because that's what you do when you catch scum. Problem is, wave hasn't been proven right by a Sun flip. Yes, it's poor play because it's a premature assumption that he's basing his entire game around. But I don't think he's scum for it.

[Egg]

I'm back. Phone on for the first time since Friday. I'll read up tonight.

[Egg]

Egg, you're town reading what I am scum reading. Not sure what to make of that

Probably because it's something weird and you see that as scummy where I'm actually thinking about why wave would think the way he's thinking. He probably legitimately thinks sun is scum which scum can't do.

_____________

Jjh, why are wave and sesq town vs town?

Vedith, you said jjh and bombcat are both scum. So you think bombcat called his partner a mason? Why? (My own opinion is that exactly one of the two is scum)

I don't like any of jjh's page 29.

Wave's 734 is a good post. If the bomb lynch can't happen, sesq is a good one too. I agree that there's probably enough support to make that happen.

I'd be interested to see jjh's "mega case" on vedith. It would show me his thought process.

<-ok he ended up doing it. I find it interesting that you have the problems you do with his entrance if you are familiar with him like you claim to be. The rest is OMGUS, bad meta, and hyperbole. I think you're just trying to make it look good more than you actually believe it.

My phone battery is going to die so I'll finish up later tonight.

[Egg]

You understand that Vedith is the one who omgus-ed me, there is no goddamn meta in that whole goddamn case, and any and all inferences are based off clearly defined premises and facts? Your criticisms are bullshit

When I read your original post, it sounded like you were using the lack of shit posting against him. He pointed out that he was scum when you saw him shit post and that was when you started saying it wasn't alignment related. And as far as OMGUS goes, he called you scum in post 666. I don't see you calling him scum until you voted him in 685, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Egg]

Oh, just realized vedith already clarified the OMGUS thing. I apologize for the redundancy. Also for double posting. Thought I had more left to read from earlier, but my only concern in what was left was answered by flubber in 790.

[Egg]

Yeah I was actually just looking at that and realizing he's probably not gonna get lynched and we have 3 days to deadline and all these 2 person wagons.

But...

My preferred comproise is sesq who only has one vote.

I was townreading echo and vedith hasn't done anything to change that.

I'm townreading transcend.

I'm townreding wave.

That leaves jjh who I don't think is scum with bombcat. I guess he's a better vote than the other wagons though.

Can we lynch sesq or is that not doable? Momentum is a real thing. *shrug*

UNVOTE: Unvote
VOTE: sesq

I want this to happen, but if it doesn't I'll go to jjh.

Fixed vote tags

[Egg]

Raya, wave, and havingfitz should pick a wagon by the way.

[Egg]

Oh wait, not wave lol

[Egg]

Idk i feel like scum is using a replacement as last minute desperate lynch bait, he's commented enough where I get a sense of townness

Just transcend? I notice you are townreading jjh and didn't mention connor in that post but every time you do mention connor I get the idea you're town reading him even if you don't come right out and say it.

game's play is trash so far,

maybe lurkscumhasnt really pinged me until now tho

What is trash about it? What pinged you?

How the fuck is this ever town I have no idea if half of you are even playing this game

Tell me why it's scum. And specifically scum, not just poor play.

______________

Guys, can we consolidate wagons?

Deadline is in two days. The lead wagon is at 2. FIVE of you are on 1 person wagons or not voting at all. Pick a wagon and fast. Sesq, transcend, vedith, and jjh are the only viable votes unless something changes.

[Egg]

No. Pick a wagon.

[Egg]

Well, I'm town, so naturally I think his play has been atrocious since he pushed on me for a while. The shade he's thrown at me repeatedly has been really minor, meaningless things. And that's not scummy in itself - it's the fact that so many other people have done so many worse things this game and he doesn't comment on them one bit. So that doesn't strike me as him just playing paranoid, it strikes me as him being out to get me.

What reason would he have to be out to get you as scum? I think the issue here is just how you'e perceiving him.

[Egg]

Reads, town on top, scum on bottom:
Egg
Raya
Gamenburger
Waveform
Sunchild
Transcend
Connor
Flubber
Echo
Jjh (not scum with bomb)
Mantichora
Sesq
Bombcat

I was townreading echo and vedith hasn't done anything to change that.

I deleted my original response to this because waveform basically said the same thing as me in 835.

Wave, don't answer things for me.

[Egg]

Oh so you weren't null on anyone and you properly townread everyone from echo upwards inclusive

I don't believe in completely null reads most of the time. It's pretty impossible to play the game properly and not be able to come up with some opinion on any given player. So yes, everyone from echo on up is at least some degree of a town read which should be obvious from reading my first content post.

Wave, don't answer things for me.

Uh, he didn't ask you a question? He asked the town to vote you.

It's still something I should address myself.

[Egg]

If you think I'm shitty here, sure:

Remember when I said connor's post sounded like an excuse for scummy play? Yeah this is the town version of that. The difference is that echo offers himself up as a lynch which lacks the basic survivalism scum tend to show. Connor's post was the exact opposite and came off very "don't lynch me lol". So yeah, echo can be town.

[Egg]

That's a lie I've never said that

Oops. I put your name on the quote instead of mine somehow.

Sesq, @Raya, @Transcend, @bombcat - you can't all be scum, please help the town and get on a wagon.

Yeah that really needs to happen for any wagons to take off.

[Egg]

Since we have an extension now, could we indeed start a flubber wagon? How is everyone feeling about that vote? Connor you say you think he's scum so that would make three of us. Do we have four more?

I'm not voting flubber. Bombcat or sesq would be best.

[Egg]

Are we seriously going to have vedith as the only option?

Put some votes on sesq.

[Egg]

Transcend if your theory is what I think it is, please don't say what it is.

Keep the sesq votes coming people.

[Egg]

Transcend if your theory is what I think it is, please don't say what it is.

Keep the sesq votes coming people.

His theory is probably trash and will have no reason to say that.
Trans is possible scum.

Why?

[Egg]

Transcend being scum.

[Egg]

Or he has a theory.

[Egg]

I'm already kinda gobbling to be honest.

[Egg]

VOTE: Sesq

[Egg]

So...yeah that's what I thought the theory was.

____________________________

If I'm mason and claim it, tonight I'm dead anyway.
So overall that's a dumb question.

Ew

i just don't know how i'm gonna get this vote to flip in time but like i really do think echo was obvtown

like i do odododod

Vote sesq.

imo none ofthem should out today unless getting lynched

then tomorrow one of them outs the one the 3 thinks collectively are the scummiest lol

Nah, they don't claim unless they are otherwise getting lynched and that applies tomorrow too.

k i tslipped i'm a 4th IC

anyone who disagrees is getting lynched lol

To be fair, that slip could be made by either a VT or scum and could be faked by a mason.

VOTE: sesq

better than nuecho

Sweeeeeet

_________________________

Holy shit guys this is my first post from a computer in years and it's weird not using my phone.

[Egg]

VOTE: sesq

I'll have more to say when I'm not coming off a second straight 16 hour work day. Bed time.

[Egg]

As far as Egg goes I still think he's scum. Defending Vedith there is a solid way to get post-flip towncred, but I still think his arguments were shit tier fabrications.

I mean... your case wasn't very good and didn't convince me to change my mind on a player I thought was town. Yesterday you acted like that made me scum with him. Now it's me looking for town cred? Sounds like confirmation bias to me. You decided yesterday that I was scum because I didn't like your vedith case and now you're sticking with that even though you were wrong on vedith.

[Egg]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone call vedith lynchbait before this game.

[Egg]

I also never advocated for a bombcat lynch

I thought he meant vedith...

[Egg]

I think he's saying that his coasting off lynchbait comment referred to jjh starting both the bomb and vedith wagons, not just vedith. Which is fair enough, I suppose.

Bombcat hasn't flipped though. And is probably still scum even though nobody thinks so.

[Egg]

I think he's saying that his coasting off lynchbait comment referred to jjh starting both the bomb and vedith wagons, not just vedith. Which is fair enough, I suppose.

Bombcat hasn't flipped though. And is probably still scum even though nobody thinks so.

u want to get lynched? buddy boy? i will make this happen i swear to god i will do it

UNVOTE: transcend

VOTE: egg

You could just NK me.

[Egg]

Maybe he had a mason read on connor. Maybe his team thought connor was a better kill. Who knows? There are a ton of possibilities.

[Egg]

But this game is moving slower than the mini theme you just signed up for probably will...

[Egg]

I'm able to sign up for that game because by the time it starts I will have the time to play. I don't right now. I feel kind of bad constantly prodging this game. I'll give it a solid effort to catch up and post tomorrow and if I still can't I'll ask to be replaced again tomorrow.

Nothing wrong with a V/LA if needed.

I'm about to take another one myself.

Stalker?

Lol.

I was looking for games to join and remembered seeing raya's name there lol

[Egg]

sesq and bombcat top scum

game and wave top town

[Egg]

oh, thought transcend's post was at me for a minute there lol

[Egg]

Bombcat could be mafia

And Raya i like your reads list as well. No offense didn't read the spoilers but i like the placements of everyone but echo.

Echo is vedith who is dead

[Egg]

V/LA the rest of today and all of tomorrow.

Will be at work in that time.

[Egg]

I didn't even make wae's list.

=(

[Egg]

Hm, forgot you because I have no worthwhile read on you or fitz. You're just town-by-default at this point because I have scumreads. Should have just put you in the middle.

Hmm. I'd like to see you sort the two of us if that's the case, but I guess that's fair for now if you're confident in your other reads.

Yeah, Egg's strange reads are the main reason I have him as null. I townread his actions otherwise, though. I think he could just be wrong.

Can we talk about where we disagree then? I think you're town and we are both scureading sesq. What reads are "strange"? Game and Bombcat?

[Egg]

I've talked at length already about game and bomb.

Just be content knowing I think you're probably town.

There's a difference between going back and reading what you've said (or even just trying to remember it) and actually talking it out. I'm trying to engage you because I town read you and we disagree strongly but haven't had a discussion about it. Can you remind me of your major points against game or why you think town would do what bombcat did regarding jjh?

you fucking hammered him and you're trying to get town cred for saying he was town while you did it, why is no one lynching you

that is also a question for the people not voting transcend

At the time transcend voted, it was pretty obvious vedith was the lynch. All he did was get it over with. If he hadn't hammered, I may have done it pretty soon myself. I was also townreading vedith but any lynch (setup in mind, masons don't count) is better than a no lynch. And townreading who everyone else scum reads on Day 1 is a losing battle. If he wasn't lynched Day 1, he'd have been lynched later. I don't fault Transcend for that hammer if he's town and the fact that I get why town would do it means it's not a scum tell either in my opinion.

________________________

Transcend, is your Titus scum read only because of her Vedith vote or is there more?

low key wouldn't mind if the 4 of us townblocked and maybe add raya there as well.

havingfitz was matichora though...

[Egg]

There's a difference between going back and reading what you've said (or even just trying to remember it) and actually talking it out. I'm trying to engage you because I town read you and we disagree strongly but haven't had a discussion about it. Can you remind me of your major points against game or why you think town would do what bombcat did regarding jjh?

Er I just wrote a whole wall on game a few pages back. Mantichora didn't have a lot of content, just seemed like low-hanging fruit for being lurky. As for bomb I actually don't blame you for scumreading him, I just don't personally when I look at the grander scheme of things, rather than just focusing on one thing he did. And I have some gut feelings about some other things that aren't really meaningful right now but w/e

I think you're fixating too much on this. Sorry if I come across as exasperated with you or something but I feel like at this point we just need to compromise where we can and get some information from flips. I've already argued and argued about these things and your reads are what they are and that's totally fine by me. But yeah, If I'm making a straight up list from top to bottom, you're in the middle, sorry about that.

Fair enough. We agree on sesq so this conversation can wait. And about that last sentence, I care more about your reads on game and bombcat than your read on me so it's no big deal.

[Egg]

Bombcat, raya looked town in the beginning though. Inactivity makes it feel like a stale read, but it doesn't make raya scum.

Game, remind me why you're townreading sesq.

[Egg]

even if that were true putting her in a forever town circle is ridiculous and we should lynch the person who recommended it

Town blocks, if done right, aren't forever. They need to be re-evaluated later.

Bombcat, raya looked town in the beginning though. Inactivity makes it feel like a stale read, but it doesn't make raya scum.

Game, remind me why you're townreading sesq.

Remind me why you scumread me

-Your connor vote early on
-I got a detatched vibe from you that turned into more of a "faking it" feeling
-your reads list post
-the way you called sun's play "ass" for little apparent reason and used it to call him scum (you did something similar with game as well)
-your reaction to raya's scum read on you
-your reaction to bombcat's mason thing
-your suggestion that masons should claim

I've played a scum game with sesq before, and she can get away with a lot less posting then she does. This game she's contributing. Intermittently I'll admit, but my gut says scum!sesq wouldn't being nearly as helpful as she is in this game

She's not at the top of my town reads but definitely more town than scum in my mind

Where's she been helpful?

Transcend knows this. Your point?

I think it's pretty obvious that I was saying that I was scumreading mantichora.

[Egg]

This was you townreading him?

i think bombcat has the "lol xd!" factor going

if sunchild is not an alt then

yeah imma vote because without the noob justification this play is total ass. maybe its just bad meta tho???? damn....

VOTE: SunChild for. now. smh

[Egg]

Sesq

I was scumreading the fact that you called his play "ass" without saying what was wrong with it and then turned around and voted.

It felt like you didn't believe in the vote.

I mean now you say pressure vote and if so maybe that's fine but it didn't feel like pressure and it's not the only time you've been dismissive of something without getting specific. Hell, you just did it after I replied to you asking why I scum read you. You responded to one of my points and just blindly call the rest dumb.

[Egg]

please start making just any level of sense

Coming from the person who says:

do you understand what a pressure vote is?

wait, you do but you dismiss it anyway, you're just saying "well you've done it other times so it's wrong".

Like that wasn't even about you calling it a pressure vote. It was about you being dismissive.

[Egg]

Lol k

...

[Egg]

I still want a Titus wagon but seeing as that's still a vanity vote I too could look into Transcend. I'm not exactly great at reading him

Why not sesq?

[Egg]

Jjh:

I still want a Titus wagon but seeing as that's still a vanity vote I too could look into Transcend. I'm not exactly great at reading him

Why not sesq?

[Egg]

I've played with her before and there was a very similar scenario in which she got MLed as town for the same shitty reasons with the same reactions, and my gut here tells me she's town like it did then.

What does she do differently as scum?

[Egg]

The question was for jjh.

[Egg]

Lol

Yeah

That's definitely weak.

[Egg]

Jjh, you haven't played with transcend very much, have you?

[Egg]

Egg, talk to me about why you implicitly believe Transcend memeclaiming mason is nai here, because not everything Transcend does is nai.

It didn't surprise me. He's pushing sesq and when he came out all "connor's dying wish is for sesq dead I'm mason lol sheep me", it was just very Transcend-like. When he's town, he'll do dumb stuff that he thinks is funny to push the lynch he wants. I can see why he'd do it as scum too, but the fact that both are out there means it doesn't tell us anything about his alignment. I mean it was pretty obvious that connor wouldn't have said that anyway because he didn't have much interest in a sesq lynch when he was alive.

[Egg]

egg is trying very hard to make transcend look town and jjh is asking the right questions so I don't think I got a lot to say my reads are consistent with what's been happening nothing changed VOTE: Transgend

If by "make transcend look town" you mean "explain why pushes against my town read are bad", then yes. That's exactly what I'm doing.

[Egg]

Does Transcend memepost simply because he is Transcend? Or perhaps for some greater purpose?

Because he's transcend. The "claim" wasn't even convincing. I didn't even take it as a claim.

egg is trying very hard to make transcend look town and jjh is asking the right questions so I don't think I got a lot to say my reads are consistent with what's been happening nothing changed VOTE: Transgend

If by "make transcend look town" you mean "explain why pushes against my town read are bad", then yes. That's exactly what I'm doing.

why not let him defend himself

Because the question was directed at me, not at him.

[Egg]

My sesq wagon died.

=(

And titus is probably town.

Transcend and waveborn, what if I sing "baby come back"?

[Egg]

Waveflow, the way he looked up transcend for meta came off as a genuine interest in sorting transcend. Titus suspecting me is her town meta. And I know I shouldn't look so much at this, but I don't think the associatives are there with Sun (yes, I'm aware you feel differently on that last one).

[Egg]

He also made five posts about chess and got replaced. I think his interest in anything in this game was pretty short lived.

[Egg]

V/LA the rest of Day 2

I'm working the next three days. Will check back in between shifts. This is my only game and I know deadline is close, so I'll have my focus here in the short time I'm free, but it's not much.

[Egg]

Want pics of my schedule? I have my calendar book on me. I don't lie about RL. That's BS.

[Egg]

i'm not saying you're lying i'm saying that having a job shouldn't put you on v/la

Try 16 hours at work without internet access on back to back days and then 8 the next with the possibility of it becoming 16 because of mandatory OT. My time in between is basically just for sleep.

This isn't sudden momentum

It kind of is. The suspicion isn't new, but the votes came together quickly.

[Egg]

Is titus seriously going to be my only compromise? I still want to lynch sesq...

[Egg]

Then hammer

Nobody is hammering without stating intent. She said she'd claim if that happens. We're not risking a lynch on a mason. If anyone wants to hammer, let her claim first. Or better yet vote sesq.

Scummy pred

Town!Titus usually shits town. I'm not seeing it. Just a bunch of shallow posting honestly.

She shits town as scum too except maybe one major slip up. She's not playing like herself lately and I don't think alignment has anything to do with it. She's mentioned having the flu I believe more than once.

Would rather off sesq but there was way too much resistance there and not enough time for deadline

Think about why there is resistance.

[Egg]

Jjh, I was townreading transcend too, but why is mathblade confirmed town? Only confirmed town would be a mason who a dead mason said was mason.

<-asked by havingfitz and answered. I don't see why transcend replaced out regardless of his alignment.

I think our masons should claim.

No. Not unless they are about to be lynched.

_____________

I find it interesting that flubber thinks scum are killing who suspects them and mathblade thinks scum are guessing masons. I don't really think either is scum but if one is it's doubtful they are scum together because of this.

This hammer is atrocious and the whole reason Titus was flash wagoned is because Sesq couldn't be a thing.

I agree with the Titus wagon part of this. The hammer is understandable because deadline + self preservation, but Sesq continues to be difficult to lynch despite quite a few people scumreading her. What is wrong with waveflow's vote? I've been townreading him.

Wavemode today if not having Fitz.

What happened to sesq?

VOTE: sesq

[Egg]

Mathblade, I'd vote havingfitz before wave but I'm MUCH more confident in sesq.

[Egg]

wavemode's had a couple of towny moments. why don't you want to lynch egg?

Because I am going vegan this game only.

Bombcat do you want to join wavemode and Fitz as scum or do you want to pick one.

Like wavemode and Fitz are top toer scumreads and I don't see how people defend wavemode for something nebulous vague and useless. If you townread wavemode and Fitz say why now.

My biggest reason for townreading wave is that his confirmation bias on his sun case read more as town who was sure he caught scum than scum faking a read.

Not as confident there like I was on read through but gut says

Sesq = too scummy to be scum

which I know is not a thing but I've replaced into a slot that Sesq played that was horrible. I just think

Sesq is a newb.

*sigh*. Neither of the two bolded are good reasons to think someone is town.

[Egg]

the amount of flipping with mathblade is just really disconcerting

game/math team, maybe

also

>people scumreading me

Where do you see mathblade flipping other than maybe the read on you?

[Egg]

seems like they had a really sudden hop onto havingfitz

then again, they just entered the game, that can happen

still "disconcerting", as is fitz' play

I still don't see the issue.

[Egg]

Yeah, the one with this in the last line AFTER you dismissed it:

still "disconcerting"

I read that as you dismissing it but believing it to be scummy anyway which would have been pretty bad. But if you no longer believe it then meh, whatever.

[Egg]

mathblade, here's my list:
Egg
Gamenburger
Waveform
mathblade
Flubber
Jjh (not scum with bomb)
havingfitz
Bombcat
sesq

[Egg]

V/LA until Saturday

. Will try to check in in about 24 hours though.

[Egg]

Oh and FYI see havingfitz scum game Jailkeeper tried to say the same bullshit about he was Town because of his wall posts.

Okay I'm not really going to continue this conversation when your head is stuck in the sand, it's pointless.

I'm voting Game or Sesq today.

Awesome so you're not

actually

scumreading flubber then. You're not

actually

scumreading flubber even though you have flubber as part of your team. Sounds legit (sarcasm).

VOTE: wavemode

This is the lynch people.

Not willing to lynch in his top three.

Is it really that hard to believe he doesn't want to compromise on his third choice at this point in the day?

Here's my list:
Town - havingfitz 
Could be scum - everyone else.

I know this was probably supposed to be intentionally difficult, but it still kinda reeks.

Sesq vs egg seems town v town 

I've never liked when people say this without reasons. Does something in our back and forth make you feel this way or do you just see two town reads arguing and go "yep, it's town vs town"? Have you read my points against sesq? Is she still a meta town read for you?

the quotation marks were lampooning the baselessness of that accusation and therefore i dont believe strongly in it

Ok, fair.

also, apparently calling people's play horrible without explanation is good now.

that's a great idea!

I thought you told me this was just called "pressure" when you did it. Same thing mathblade said, actually.

[Egg]

I know this was probably supposed to be intentionally difficult, but it still kinda reeks

It was only partially difficult. There's a lot of uncertainty there too.

I still have suspicions towards my towniest reads and doubts towards my scummiest. So ranking them is useless imo. Just helps scum manipulate town towards a consensus on scum read townies.

Also conveniently leaves everyone else with no idea where you even stand and opens you up to hop anyone wagon you feel you need to if you are scum. What are you doing to try to sort the uncertainty?

its smart to play pressure with scumhunting but if you try to criticize people's play without being specific you're just being a chungus

So you think you were being specific when you said someone's play (was it sun?) was ass and didn't say why?

Anyone not on Fitz explain why they townread Fitz.

I don't. Just more confident in sesq being scum. If this turns into havingfitz vs wave, I'll vote havingfitz but I think a sesq lynch is still viable and I don't really like the names on the havingfitz wagon (sesq and bombcat are both there).

Had a light townread on Mantichora.

Did you ever say why? I don't remember that. Either way, can you explain it to me now?

This game has been nothing more than mislynches and town is ahead

Yeah, this. We're down a mason and have yet to lynch scum. It's not going well and I don't see how math feels that "town is ahead". If math ends up being scum (I was townreading transcend so meh), I'll definitely be looking at people who have been wagoned already.

there is plenty of area for meaningful discussion and we do not want to rush this

The other people in this game could do with showing up. I want to talk with Egg. No rush though atm.

What's up

[Egg]

I don't like it but his logic sounds slightly more town-minded than sesq did when suggesting the same thing. I can understand wanting to avoid possible 1v1s between masons and scum, but I don't think masons claiming now is worth it. I can also see mathblade's arguement that scum would love to know masons and would be willing to take a chance to make it happen. Basically I see both sides of it and mantichora's play is still a big part of what pushes my read over the edge to scumreading havingfitz. And I realize I'm rambling about the concept when you wanted more on the actual posts, but that's where my head is at on this. The posts themselves, like I said, sound town-minded. Havingfitz is probably capable of deciding at night he'd make that move and then coming in and making it sound good though. There are reasons I'm more confident in sesq, and even bombcat, being scum. I feel very waffly on havingfitz.

[Egg]

Jjh, mason fishing.

Sesq, right. You consider that specific?

[Egg]

K.

its smart to play pressure with scumhunting but if you try to criticize people's play without being specific you're just being a chungus

[Egg]

can you not read, egg?

when i described his play as ass, i meant it was him being scum, something you can be vague about.

i was not describing his overall play.

i'm not going to reiterate this again, and if you bring it up i'm going to have to assume you are scum, as i don't believe people who are smart enough to register for a website and join a game and participate in the game to a degree lack the comprehension of that post to such an alarming degree

You're really determined to make this seem different than what mathblade did that you didn't like, aren't you?

[Egg]

We're just gonna talk in circles at this point. The way I see it you are calling mathblade scum for something you did yourself but you think it's different and haven't been able to show me that.

[Egg]

i have never said mathblade is scum

i am convinced you are unable to read

Huh. My mistake. Checked your ISO and while everything with mathblade's name IS negative, you've never said mathblade is scum. All you said on what we've been discussing is that it isn't good (which still makes me wonder why yours was ok, but I don't think we're going to come to any understanding on that).

This is the wrong lynch

Havingfitz is town and wave is just coasting by

If wave isn't happening, which of the other two wagons would you prefer (Sesq/havingfitz). I know you town read both, but if it came down to them or no lynch what would you do?

[Egg]

If the numbers aren't there for sesq, I could vote havingfitz but would strongly prefer a sesq lynch.

V/LA until August 23rd

I know that sounds like a long time, but I will have enough access to check in at least once a day so I'll be around, just not as active as I'd like. Half of that is for work and the other half is to go to a NASCAR race.

[Egg]

I could vote havingfitz but would strongly prefer a sesq lynch.

Because I'm bussing? smh....

Because I'm townreading wave, won't no lynch, and think there's a decent enough chance you are scum. I'm not gonna change my mind on those things over (lack of) pre-flip associations. Also what the fuck is post 1727? Openly mason hunting in thread when the masons obviously chose not to claim the first time you suggested it, or when sesq mentioned it, or when bombcat said what he said.

Also I'm seeing Havingfitz as town and Egg as scum now

I'm curious what changed here. I already told mathblade earlier that havingfitz was my preferred compromise if it came down to that.

[Egg]

Havingfitz, the biggest thing for me is that you felt very under the radar and then when people started voting you, you suddenly appeared more active. And not even active in the sense of pushing reads, helping town, and making an impact. It's all about how you don't like the suspicion on you. (And after typing this, I see that Game went into the same thing so I'm not the only one to notice it). And to answer your question, you are trying to get me to not be willing to compromise by voting you because you don't think you fit as scum with my scum reads. My scum reads haven't flipped scum and I don't usually have 100% accuracy in my reads. I'm not considering living players' alignments when reading you because I don't know those players' alignments. That's all I mean by not using pre-flip associatives. As for your 1727, I meant the in thead mason spec when you appear to be the most likely lynch. I can't think of a town benefit for that.

Jjh, my preference on the names you gave is havingfitz, flubber, game, me. Havingfitz is the only one of the four I can really see being scum though. Flubber would be like extreme PoE or something before I'd consider that. Game is a strong town read for me.

I don't have much to say about day 1 and 2 other than that he [jjh] pushed both mislynches and seems awfully not taken aback by both 

That's actually pretty interesting. Jjh isn't happening today though.

_____________

Guess it's compromise time.

Unvote, VOTE: Havingfitz

[Egg]

I think by now it's obvious I want to lynch sesq and bombcat. Three days in a row haven't gone my way. I think it's time that ends.

[Egg]

I think at this point everyone says their top two suspects and then masons claim and drive this thing home.

I like this but we have like no agreement. Someone is going to end up compromising and it's way too late for compromise lynches. If the masons do claim, hopefully they have good reads and people listen to them because that's basically our only hope right now.

[Egg]

Ah, a prod!

dodges

Yeah I don't really wanna do a prod dodge but there's nothing to say right this second.

[Egg]

Really? No comments about disagreeing or agreeing? Nothing?

Not since my last post. I've pretty much already said I agree with most of what you've said today.

Everyone is posting and masons haven't claimed. I trust their judgement. Can we just lynch sesq?

[Egg]

VOTE: Sesq

[Egg]

Shit...

Jjh, wave, bomb?

[Egg]

Sesq if you're town that self vote may be the worst I've ever seen.

[Egg]

Yeah wave is obvtown. He's the only one who has spent the whole game helping me push sesq.

I still think bombcat is scum. I need to re-evaluate between game and mathblade though. I've been townreading both slots and one of them (or wave but no) has to be scum.

[Egg]

Mathblade, mason hunting is a bad idea. Let the mason decide if they want to claim or not.

Game, bussing is extremely common when scum is going down anyway. A 4 day push to genuinely try to get a scumbuddy lynched, not so much.

Game has been on every mislynch and was not on Sesq's lynch

Actually now that you mention it I asked him for reasoning on his meta read on Sesq and his answer was pretty weak.

______________

Bomb/Game makes sense to me. I don't love that math's first thought is hunting the last mason though. And both seem to be coming around to bombcat a little too quickly for my taste so I wouldn't be shocked if they were the scum team and counting on me to vote there. Ugh this is why I hate LYLO...

Preview edit: And of course math sees the same thing I did with Game suddenly coming around to bombcat. I'm not convinced math would do that to a scumbuddy. So now I have doubts on both bombcat and mathblade being scum. I'm probably actually leaning Game for today now as well, math.

Actually he's bussing

Can you explain this? Even if you change your mind, what looked that way at first?

[Egg]

Wave, what are you thinking on Math? I checked your ISO and didn't see anything recent.

I ask because I'm not 100% sure where math is getting the two voting blocs with math in the middle idea (or whatever that was supposed to be) from. I've been very cler that I'm not sold on math. I could see Game voting bomb. I can see bomb voting game. The only thing that looks right is I'm not voting wave and I don't think wave will vote me any time soon. The only way math would be the deciding vote is if there is no way we are lynching math and everyone else is pretty sure of their vote. I don't think either of those things is necessarily the case.

[Egg]

Math, ok, from your point of view I can understand that if you are town. It just came off very "I'm confirmed town for no reason and it's all up to me to decide" but if you're town I definitely understand that as a thinking out loud kind of post. Like sorting your thoughts in thread.

Wave, thoughts on math?

[Egg]

Mathblade, mason hunting is a bad idea. Let the mason decide if they want to claim or not.

Game, bussing is extremely common when scum is going down anyway. A 4 day push to genuinely try to get a scumbuddy lynched, not so much.

Game has been on every mislynch and was not on Sesq's lynch

Actually now that you mention it I asked him for reasoning on his meta read on Sesq and his answer was pretty weak.

______________

Bomb/Game makes sense to me. I don't love that math's first thought is hunting the last mason though. And both seem to be coming around to bombcat a little too quickly for my taste so I wouldn't be shocked if they were the scum team and counting on me to vote there. Ugh this is why I hate LYLO...

Preview edit: And of course math sees the same thing I did with Game suddenly coming around to bombcat. I'm not convinced math would do that to a scumbuddy. So now I have doubts on both bombcat and mathblade being scum. I'm probably actually leaning Game for today now as well, math.

Actually he's bussing

Can you explain this? Even if you change your mind, what looked that way at first?

Mainly hunting the last mason forces a scum CC. Then narrows down the lynch pool rather significantly.

Say for example I am the last mason, then I claim and say for example Game CC's. Then a team of me + Game is eliminated.

Or if Wave claims and bombcat CCs.

Now what I am suspecting will happen is if the last mason CCs scum have to CC.

If they don't counter claim and just night kill the mason then what happens is that mason not only single handedly decides the lynch for today but furthermore it explains some of the dynamic going on here in LYLO.

It also forces Bombcat to take a concrete stance too.

Even more it also forces scum to cater to that Mason's world view.

Mainly it is up to the mason yes. However as only one in the best case scenario mason stays silent we lynch scum and then go into tomorrow mason instant claims and then other two cross vote.

Which leaves a risk of scum quick claiming mason and then getting one person to cross vote. At this point IMHO mason should claim and say we are lynching X and I think they are paired with Y.

If the mason waits until tomorrow to claim someone is confirmed town either way. No counterclaim confirms the mason. A counterclaim confirms the VT. If the mason isn't likely to be lynched or NK'd, they don't need to claim today because 3p LYLO with a confirmed town player is huge.

it's worth noting that everyone in the game has suggested to lynch me today

I think I'm actually leaning towards game even though you are my strongest individual scum read. I think the likliest teams are game/bomb and game/math. I don't think you are scum with mathblade. So that makes Game the smart lynch in my opinion.

I know wave prefers a Game lynch. Math, do you agree that that's what we should do? If so, there's probably no reason to wait any longer.

[Egg]

Ah, didn't notice his V/LA.

[Egg]

We are lynching Game

you're actively pushing for multiple lynches

lol

[Egg]

It's extremely doubtful that I would.

[Egg]

i'm not sure you're sure the 2nd mafia is between me and mathblade but mathblade seems sure that you're sure the 2nd mafia is between me and mathblade so i just wanna hear if it's true that you're sure the 2nd mafia is between me and mathblade

Why does this immediately matter?

[Egg]

Let's lynch Game

Game are you a a mason

[Egg]

Let's lynch Game

Game are you a a mason

You told me to stop talking about masons and acknowledging the obvious mason

I think given my post talking about who the mason my answer should be painfully obvious because I'm not trying to blow up said obvious masons shitty play on the off chance scum didn't catch it

However I also don't take this threat to claim seriously given who it's coming from and that the consensus is evenly split from my count

If anything I'd like to defend myself explicitly after work and make a case as to why I couldn't be scum

I've been avoiding that because I find that's rarely useful except for niche situations in lylo but I think this is one of those situations

Espescially from the people who think me and bombcat are scum buds together

Today is my first day of a new job so I'll try and write the post before I go to work but It might have to wait till after

Don't discuss masons if it's about someone else. But I think we are at a point where you need to claim if you are the mason.

i'm not sure you're sure the 2nd mafia is between me and mathblade but mathblade seems sure that you're sure the 2nd mafia is between me and mathblade so i just wanna hear if it's true that you're sure the 2nd mafia is between me and mathblade

Why does this immediately matter?

because mathblade is under the impression that given current conditions if game burger flips scum i'll be automatically lynched tomorrow, and that seems sort of likely. i would rather people think harder about the game today. plus he might not be mafia

I think it's better left for tomorrow if tomorrow comes unless there's a possibility we don't lynch Game.

[Egg]

Hmm.

[Egg]

I'm more amazed at the 180 on wave after pushing him for basically the entire game.

[Egg]

Yeah I'm not the mason. It was pretty obvious at least yesterday that it was wave which is why I shrugged him off as town at that point.

VOTE: mathblade

[Egg]

Just fyi if you'd kept bomb and myself both alive, I probably would have ended up voting bomb.

[Egg]

We all agreed on game so that argument is pointless. We know he was bussed. But if that's the angle you want to try, explain why I spent the entire game bussing sesq just to turn around and bus game and then set up 3p LYLO by killing the scummiest player in the game. If I was scum, this would have to be the most self destructive game I've ever played and I like to think I'm better than that as scum.

[Egg]

It's...really not though. I actually prefer playing scum because I'm better at it. My most memerable games are pretty much all scum games lol.

[Egg]

Actually you haven't done too bad.

Jjh, I was townreading transcend too, but why is mathblade confirmed town? Only confirmed town would be a mason who a dead mason said was mason.

<-asked by havingfitz and answered. I don't see why transcend replaced out regardless of his alignment.

I think our masons should claim.

No. Not unless they are about to be lynched.

_____________

I find it interesting that flubber thinks scum are killing who suspects them and mathblade thinks scum are guessing masons. I don't really think either is scum but if one is it's doubtful they are scum together because of this.

This hammer is atrocious and the whole reason Titus was flash wagoned is because Sesq couldn't be a thing.

I agree with the Titus wagon part of this. The hammer is understandable because deadline + self preservation, but Sesq continues to be difficult to lynch despite quite a few people scumreading her. What is wrong with waveflow's vote? I've been townreading him.

Wavemode today if not having Fitz.

What happened to sesq?

VOTE: sesq

Wavemode or Fitz pick.

You tried to save sesq but wave and I knew better.

Then you knew game was going to be lynched so there was nothing you could do. You bussed him pretty effectively when you had to.

I still don't get the bomb kill, but other than that, I don't see many mistakes.

[Egg]

If you were really town who cared about eating a nk you wouldn't have done so much Mason spec.

[Egg]

Thought I did a better job pocketing wave and knew you weren't the mason.