Mini 1939 - Organization XIII (Game Over)

[XIII Roxas]

Hmm. I have a very tricky role to successfully utilize and I am not quite sure what the optimal strategy for this would be. However, I think that this may be a good start.

If we have investigatives in the game they should target me.

I have good reason to ask for this, as it would be an incredible boon to our odds of winning if I become confirmed town.

I can fullclaim if players deem the details necessary.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Luxord.
Larxene is obviously town.
Vexen's entrance makes me believe he is town, but we shall see.
Lexaeus and Xixbar I'll need more to make a firm judgment call on.

However, Luxord is just scum.

[XIII Roxas]

Unless you supposed traitors have some sort of godfather which would be most unifitting for Roxas in all honesty.

In ancient days years past, my role would actually have ties to a godfather. However, under modern definitions my role is unambiguously not a godfather. It's much closer to an innocent child, but not to the point where claiming it alone would make me conftown. I should however clarify there are two halves to my role. One gives me town credit. The other gives me incentive to be conftown by investigation.

I say we probably shouldn't lynch him today.

Off of role alone I would likely be townread but I have been mislynched while carrying a role similar to what I have so I want to leave no room for doubt this time around.

Both posts felt played up. Larxene is definitely not obvtown, Luxord is definitely not obvscum.

Oh? Do tell how Larxene isn't obvtown then. That, or define what the term obvtown means. For me, it means obviously town. As in, a read which is so obvious it needs no explanation. Do you feel a Larxene townread needs explanation? I do not. Because Larxene is obvtown.

Why's that?

For comments like this

Also, is it just me or is the whole secret alt thing making a disproportionate amount of people use good grammar?

Rather than anything useful. 12 was a poor RVS. 18 was a random switch, with unattached fluff. 22 shows lack of critical thought. 35 is a poor defense of a stance: it being the RVS is no justification for there being no reasoning.

[XIII Roxas]

As for Roxas... He's a special case. In flavor, he's the key (literally) to the Organization's entire scheme until the Oblivion Squad screws it up vying for power, and he runs away.

Alignments do not necessarily match flavor (except for Xemnas I suppose), but it does seem like the role assignments are based on it. So when Roxas claims a super powerful role that benefits immensely from being cop cleared? I believe him, and don't want to waste the effort pushing him with a cop result incoming, and especially don't want to risk a mislynch without getting that sorted.

I must admit a lack of flavor knowledge aside from generally being aware of Roxas being Sora's opposite and I believe him going from Zero to Hero. I did get the impression my role was one of the stronger ones in the game, however, it requires specific circumstances in order to work.

all I have right now is a pretty baseless post calling someone "obviously town" and someone else "just scum" (quote marks for precision not for mockery) on page 2 which are ridiculous positions to hold this early.

How so? Larxene is in fact obviously town. Luxord is just scum. Those were the most apt descriptions to use. The terms were accurate. And, counter-question.

There are no interactions with other slots.

Why didn't you interact with my slot? You didn't bother to ask me why I held those stances. I am perfectly capable of explaining them (and in the case of Luxord I am actively doing so), yet you went in and did the very thing you were accusing me of.

VOTE: 6 Zex
As someone who has no flavor knowledge, all of the names are frustratingly similar.

This is a continued instance of not actually providing game content.

When I said Luxord was "just scum", I meant it. Because this is not town.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: 6 Zex
As someone who has no flavor knowledge, all of the names are frustratingly similar.

This is a TERRIBLE vote.

Yes it is.

Do you have a desire to join me on my wagon there?

I enjoy Marluxia's content.

As do I. I thought 77 was a good point about Luxord and it felt incredibly natural.

I kindly disagree. I stated my reasoning: your entrance felt canned, Lexaeus felt like he was just making noise. I didn't interact directly with your slot but I did do so indirectly by stating my read on you and giving you something to engage with me on.

And the thought did not occur to you that I was indirectly interacting with the slots I was referencing in my reads and giving something for others to engage with me on?

I don't think that Larxene is obviously town, please explain that.

When I say a slot is obviously town what I mean by that is the slot is so town that words don't do the read justice. It is the reaction of "oh. Town." to when a player has posted. There is no one trigger. There is no one thing I would point to. No one specific trait, no one specific characteristic, no one specific post. Because the read is so obviously true that it speaks for itself. Larxene is obviously town because it is obvious Larxene is town.

If you hold specific issues with Larxene which cause disagreement then I can engage you on them. I did not ask this of you, but I will quote it because it is equally applicable to you as it was Xigbar.

Do tell how Larxene isn't obvtown then. That, or define what the term obvtown means. For me, it means obviously town. As in, a read which is so obvious it needs no explanation. Do you feel a Larxene townread needs explanation? I do not. Because Larxene is obvtown.

This has not changed for me. Tell me why Larxene is not obvtown to you. Because I simply do not understand how it is possible to

not

view the slot as town. (On that note RE: Xigbar's post I will come back to it.)

Oh man my avatar is AWESOME

Very high chance ^this is scum.

[XIII Roxas]

My reads are based on how logical posts were imo...

That about sums up anything I'd have to say about your post.

The 2nd para is a bit of an over-reaction.

You and I have very different definitions of over-reaction mate.

All 3 of the paras (and Rox's earlier responses) felt like uttered by an over-conscious or self-aware player.

I will confirm this is true of my main as well. It does not change with me using an alt. Tell me why you, knowing this is something you expect to be part of my playstyle, think it comes from scum specifically.

You're complaining that there's no content, but not a single person has addressed the case that I provided against Larxene, nor has anyone joined me in voting her.

I promised a response to that case and I will give it in my next post. But to give an idea of what you're in for:

What

case?

That's about my opinion of what your words were. It was so inadequate that it took me a moment to realize it was something I was even supposed to reply to.

I specifically note that I think that certain players would, as scum, make a play like that.

I specifically note that I know that certain players would, as town, make a play like that.
I specifically note that I think that certain players would, regardless of alignment, make a play like that.

You see my point.

Specifics, please.

[XIII Roxas]

I lied, not quite next post since I was ninja'd. Next post though.

Roxas, say I'm a vig and I kill Larxene and they flip scum. Are you willing to put your head next on the chopping block to defend them?

Yes.

I think that

you

would make a play like that if you had some way to get towncred from that, especially in a secret alt game. I will say no more about that.

I however will say more. I cannot deny the truth: I would make any ploy I felt would earn me towncred as scum.

That being said

, said ploys would be concocted to be modified versions of what I would enact as town. I thus fall under the "certain players would, regardless of alignment, make a play like that" category.

You are still not answering my question.

I asked for specifics.

You are not giving them. ("You would make this play" is not a specific.)
What makes this a scum ploy, rather than a town ploy?

[XIII Roxas]

Spoiler: RE: Larxene "case"

These both, to my mind, feel like weird reactions to being prodded about the investigative immune claim. I would expect that town would understand that they would be questioned about the investigative immunity.

Nowhere in those posts do I get the impression Larxene did not understand that they would be questioned about the investigation immunity and you do nothing to point it out.

Rather than be clear about things, she gets sort of defensive with the 'what else would it mean' and makes an odd comment about me saying it in a totally confusing way when immune isn't really a mafia term and ascetic is.

Immune is in fact a mafia term depending on where you come from. Furthermore, asking "what else would it mean" did not read as defensive. It read as aggressive: scumhunting, on the offensive.

Even just the phrasing of 'I'm investigative immune, losers' is a little more aggressive than I would expect from such a claim from town and altogether I feel like they're defensive and overly aggressive in a scummy way.

I had the opposite impression: a lack of aggression and a naturalness about being investigation immune, with their aggression focused more on sorting other slots.

it felt like they were trying to push the game to just accept it and move on.

This is immensely pro-town and it is flagrantly ridiculous you're trying to imply otherwise. Focusing on roles/mechanics drowns the game out in a bunch of noise and smothers scumhunting (especially as most times, mechanics/role discussion is largely null). Do you disagree? If not then you know this point could not be more wrong because accepting it and moving on is exactly what should be done in order to direct focus onto scumhunting.

Are you essentially saying that you townread them for being excited?

My take was that Larxene townread Lexaeus and excitement played a part in that townread (but was not the entirety of the read), and that Larxene was acknowledging excited scum was possible but unlikely. I hold absolutely no problem with this, as I hold similar thoughts. Excitement can, in conjunction with other factors, be alignment-indicative.

She townreads 10 for the votes (which I did, too, with the caveat that I townread him before the notes) but doesn't engage intellectually with it at all and just says they don't care about the content, which is another super lazy read.

You can like content but not engage the content in question. I do it all the time. It is indeed

slightly

lazy. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If something is not worth the effort, then you have the right to not give it effort. It is especially not problematic given her attitude. The Luxord notes were nothing. She stated as much. Why WOULD she respond to content she saw as nothing? Again. You can like content even if that content is nothing.

Again, coming up with a townread and then immediately backs off on that townread by saying that she's now interested in what he has to say upon his return.

There is no contradiction in there. You can hold great interest in a player's actions regardless of your current read on them.

Why are Vexen and Axel the scummiest here, anyway? You said that you could vote Axel after a quote (and I do agree that post is somewhat scummy) but you've said nothing about Vexen this game. So, why?

This is actually a question I would indeed ask, but I would not be asking because of thinking Larxene to be scum. I would ask because I would want to know if she saw anything on Vexen. I do not see her lack of specifics as inherently scum. She is by FAR not the player most guilty of that this game.

All-around the points against Larxene are a bunch of subjective points that can come dome to a disagreement about mafia theory: Xixbar insists "this is what SHOULD be done" as if it were fact, when it is not, making it a bunch of nothingness. There is nothing tangible in this case.

[XIII Roxas]

1) Larxene threw out a bunch of townreads then backed off on them in a scummy way.

This is false; I showed why.

Larxene's scumreads are very lazy and it feels like scum looking for easy positions. Your best argument to rebut it is that others have done the same thing too. That's scummy on both of your parts.

This is a misrep of my point. I specifically said that her lack of specifics was not in fact a scumtell. I then went on to note that were you to believe it was a scumtell, she isn't even the player most guilty of it. My point was thus that you were wrong in your fundamental premise and your focus on her having done something others were far more guilty of is ridiculous. Sure her "sinning" (it's not but let's humor you) wouldn't go away, but that's no excuse for having utterly ignored altogether all the other players guilty of the alleged sin.

I can name them if you'd like.

I believe that he is scum defending Larxene and I think that Larxene will be quite difficult to lynch whereas Roxas will be much easier to lynch, so I am going to go after him first.

...

2) Larxene's scumreads are very lazy

and it feels like scum looking for easy positions

.

I think that Larxene will be quite difficult to lynch whereas

Roxas will be much easier to lynch

, so I am going to go after him first.

I have no words.

You are literally doing the exact same thing you are accusing Larxene of having done: taking the "easy" route. You are taking the "lazy" route. You are taking a position which is easy to take. Admitting you are doing so in public does not erase the sin of the hypocrisy in doing so while simultaneously pushing another for it.

[XIII Roxas]

I take it back.
I do in fact have words.
Three, more specifically:

VOTE: II Xigbar.

[XIII Roxas]

This is false; I showed why.

No, you disagreed with them since they didn't suit your agenda.

This is you, selling a narrative.

I think that giving absolutely no reasons for your reads while sheeping general consensus on basically every single one of your reads is scummy.

And I think Larxene is not guilty of this whereas there are other players who

actually

are.

I am visibly not following crowd consensus of any sort. My read on you developed independent of any slot in game and I jumped Larxene while they were universally townread. Saying I'm being 'easy' is disingenuous as hell.

Your read on me IS easy because it

is

the crowd consensus. You said it yourself explicitly: I am an easy lynch. Why would I be an easy lynch? Because people think I am scum. There is a great number of people who have gone "Roxas's contribution is not great, but I won't vote him because...". You are pursuing the easy path.

Larxene is also not a universal townread. Now granted I don't understand why she isn't, but there are multiple players who have explicitly stated she is not obvtown, and you are not even alone in stating she is suspicious. So even there, you are not taking a hard road. You are taking a road which is convenient.

You have shown no desire to engage with my reads

I've made this clear already.
What's there to engage on?
Your points are shit.
I've explained why they are shit.

You have nothing actually worth engaging on.

[XIII Roxas]

If you didn't want to be pushed as being scum hard defending scum then you shouldn't be hard defending scum as a player who refuses to bus.

You are

hilariously

wrong if you think I am a player who doesn't bus.
It's a shame I can't show you or explain in more detail since that would ruin the point of playing an all-alt game.

I can will and do bus.

There is a fucking difference between pretending to have reads and trying to look town and simply not having reads at all while making no effort to fake looking town. Larxene is fake as balls and has the most insincere reads in the game while actively trying to look like she's playing the game.

Your premise is right.

Now prove it because you sure as fuck haven't.

If you fuck off and let me do my thing with Larxene I'll unvote you and go for the person I'm more sure is scum, but I'm not going to fight both of you simultaneously.

Sorry I'm not intimidated by terrorist threats.

You would think that given that virtually every town game I've seen you in you've hard townread at least one scum, you would have learned something by now.

I'm not who you think I am. I have a reasonable idea who you are talking about and that person isn't me.
That player I'm reasonably sure is not in the game.
If they are in the game they aren't me.

[XIII Roxas]

That OMGUS was absolutely horrid.

Voting a player who voted me != OMGUS.

I voted you for reasons entirely unrelated to your vote on me.

[XIII Roxas]

Hey so I can't give details without compromising my anonymity, but I've got some real-life difficulties.
VOTE: V/LA 48 hours.[/b]
May or may not be able to give content.

[XIII Roxas]

Come at me, then. Show me what you can do, Mr. Man of Mystery.

Full disclosure: I actually don't do reasons well!

Any altguess of me where you assume I'm a scummer who reasons well is wrong because I don't.

Buuuuuuuuuuut, that said I will try when I'm fully caught up again, if I don't forget.

[XIII Roxas]

Get practicing so you can make yourself useful.

My practice is voting scum.

[XIII Roxas]

First, I think I'm very hesitant to write off Roxas vs. Xigbar as town vs. town.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah fuck.

I don't want to leave myself with no vote but I don't know who to vote because I'm not sure on any scumreads right now. Not really. I keep on going back and forth. I don't have any locked down. Like. When I voted Luxord, I thought Xigbar was town. Then when I engaged Xigbar I thought Luxord could actually be town. Yet here I'm back to seeing Luxord as scum and thinking this is a shitty way of treating an argument that genuinely

is

TvT, and that would mean Xigbar would be town.

Vote: Luxord.

I'm probably still not in the mindset to sort things properly but maybe I'll be better when caught up.

[XIII Roxas]

@Roxas if you're town here I definitely would like to see more from you that isn't just pushing back on other slots because I feel like that's pretty much the extent of what I've seen from you so far; don't think it's helpful at all to limit your content to reactions to other slots if you're town, think your reasoning on Lexaeus town is pretty poor and I don't find your stance there reasonable at all.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to fake content on slots that I don't actually have stances on. I would like to make a readslist but I'm trying to figure out formatting which would preserve my anonymity because I'm afraid no matter what style of readslist I use I will immediately out my identity once I have done so.

While it may be obvious enough, I still wish to preserve some semblance of anonymity even though I have to admit, I am indeed facing a conflict. I feel outing my identity would be the most valuable thing for my wincon, yet doing so would be counter to the spirit of the game and I did sign up for this game specifically for the anonymity-alt nature of it.

A readslist would help me explain why I am struggling and give you an idea of where I'm at, but I'm still figuring out how to make one that will not be traceable to my style.

[XIII Roxas]

Look at that, Roxas did it for me. I guess he is useful for something.

Oi!
I'm always useful for something!

My usefulness varies from game to game depending on how well I can latch onto things (and this game I am having trouble latching onto things), but even at my worst I'm better than nothing.

I want to talk about that because it's hurting your otherwise

stellar

record of being absolutely right in this game.

When Xigbar started the game I thought "mild town. Probably mostly wrong, but mild town all the same". This lasted for a while (I don't remember exactly how long), but degraded more into a null-read later. Then I started to actually engage Xigbar and it moved to being a scumread, especially since my Luxord read had the inverse trajectory of the Xigbar read in that I slowly was losing my confidence in Luxord being scum and thought he could even maybe be town.

I'm not quite sure how to verbalize at the moment right now what my Xigbar scumread was, especially since I'm now not even sure he's scum. Even if I still held that confidence I'm somewhat doubtful I'd be able to explain. In general I find it easier to explain townreads than I do to explain scumreads because townreads I can usually point to specific things; scumreads are more an overall vibe.

[XIII Roxas]

Vote: Xaldin

Regardless of Xaldin's alignment I don't like this vote.

It's explicitly piggybacking off of the momentum already present. I honestly don't have a read on Xaldin whatsoever. He could be town; he could be scum. If he's town this vote looks like hopping onto a free mislynch because Zexion would carry zero blame for it. If he's scum, this looks like the scum bus zone, where he's hopping on at the exact right moment to hopefully obtain towncred.

[XIII Roxas]

Xigbar, it is amusing how you scunread larxene for not explaining her scunread when you are doing the same exact thing. As for your comment about alts. It is both scummy and against the spirit of the game. It's scummy because it's an easy and lazy excuse to go Afterwards"I guess I was wrong about who it was and the meta"
Now you can alt guess all you want but in.a case meta has no place. Also you would be correct that I am scumreading you. I simply don't always vote on my point suspicion posts.
@Zexion, his read makes no sense because it is fake.

Did I say I had no read on Xaldin?

Scratch that.
I do.

Vote: Xaldin.

Honestly this post alone skyrockets him into being my strongest scumread. (I mean that doesn't mean very much since very, very little would be required to become my strongest scumread at this point given how much trouble I am having locking in scumreads, but it's the thought which counts.)

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: marluxia
its a shame this character is relegated to only being in handhelds...

There's Re: Chain of Memories! And absent silouhettes if you count those.
VOTE: Larxene

Likely not partners with Vexen.

VOTE: Xigbar
Also, I really should have found out whether or not the game would reveal all alts at the end. Oh well.

SAME. Although I figure I'll be obvious enough to anyone that knows me anyway. Sadly, this post says nothing about your alignment.

Sorry, my bad. They are full fledged scum, I just meant traitor as in the flavor. Should have said treacherous or just scum like I did the first time.

Really doubt this push as a whole comes from scum.

As someone with great experience with the scummer whose style you are imitating, I can point to these areas of your post where you went wrong. You had the right idea, but these ones utterly shattered the illusion. Some constructive criticism: keep the "town town? scum? scum" in order and separate from all other content, which would come in a separate post. Furthermore, the scummer you mimicked will collapse content in the manner I have done so: combining separate paragraphs, shortening spaces between quotes, and cutting out older quotes. That scummer also would not have used a spoiler tag so freely.

[XIII Roxas]

this is my weakest scumread but it's definitely the one that I'm most worried about endgaming if it's scum

Your point is valid as my scumgame is indeed stronger than my towngame but this is easily remedied by...slots investigating me.

I asked for good reason.

That being said, open offer to all: If you don't want to wait on roles you can ask me about players in the game.

I do have townreads. I don't have much in the way of solid scumreads and I have a fair number of nulls, but I have some solid townreads and some are on players not oft. talked about and/or controversial, e.g. Marluxia, Axel. That, aside from obvious ones like Larxene.

[XIII Roxas]

Awww did I really ping you for that many people so far? <3 Thanks, boo.

Your entrance pinged me crazy hard but now I'm not as sure. I don't actually know

what

my read on you is. It's about as random as your content is. Some parts look town, some parts look scum, I get strong gut vibes you might be town if you're certain people and yet also strong gut vibes that you might not be town especially if not those people and I can't lock you down one way or another. You're no longer a scumread but what read you actually

are

I have no clue.

[XIII Roxas]

Think that if Roxas were scum there would be more thought put into the opening post/sequence and there just wasn't. It doesn't come across as stiff, either.

What if I told you that I put extensive thought into my opening post?

Rather, more specifically, I thought about my role and tried to figure out how to maximize its utility a great deal and my first post was the ultimate conclusion I reached.

[XIII Roxas]

Frankly, it feels as though you've come into the game determined to townread Roxas and make them look town and I really don't like it.

If they are someone who I think they could be and if they have an accurate read on my identity, I would not be bothered by it and would expect it. However, I would expect it regardless of their alignment and I've got mixed feelings about it.

On the one hand I feel it's possible they "get" it, genuinely, and would be town from it.
On the other hand it's also very possible they are exaggerating to buddy me. Because they would indeed buddy me as scum, as they would have no alternative strategy at their disposal.

And it's annoying me that I can't pin that down.

The motivation for you townread Roxas depends on his alignment - if he's town then you're trying to pocket him because he's an easy pocket when he's town and all you need to do is agree with his reads and you're town to him; if he's scum then you're scum with him and you're trying to improve the position your team is in because your scumbuds are being scumread and you don't want to have to endgame town without Roxas. Roxas' motivation for not articulating the Luxord scumread is so obvious I'm baffled that you're asking me - if Roxas is scum then he doesn't have to provide reasoning that he'll have to justify and be held accountable for.

I know which scummer you are talking about and while I don't know if I am allowed to state directly I am not them I can safely abuse a loophole to let you know I am not them by stating this:
I am not from California.

If you assume I am a scummer from there.
You have my identity wrong.

[XIII Roxas]

If you're struggling do it Ranger style. That's pretty common these days so I don't think it gives anything away.

Sure.
{Xemnas, Larxene}
{Axel, Marluxia}
{Lexaeus}
{Vexen}
{Saix}
{Xigbar, Demyx}
{Zexion, Luxord}
{Xaldin}
Strong-town > town > weak-town > townlean > null > mixed (ambivalent) > scumlean > scumread.

Like I said.
I have a fair number of townreads but am lacking in scumreads.

[XIII Roxas]

definitely needing to hear from you there about as many of those reads you're able to talk about because if you're town I think you're dead on the wrong track and frankly I wouldn't expect there to be any way of helping you course correct when you're not in a mode of being able to talk about anything so I'm pretty much expecting to just be frustrated with your slot for the rest of the game here if you're town. Really unhappy with that prospect; think if you are town you need to be a lot less closed off than what you've been so far.

I would like to note:

Full disclosure: I actually don't do reasons well!

(That reminds me I probably need to go back and do that.) If you ask me to explain all my reads with reasoning, my answer is a flat-out no.

I am willing to give a great amount of my time and effort to any given mafia game, but I have my limits. Giving full reasoning on the full playerlist, when I am someone who has trouble giving reasoning, is beyond that limit. I hold a massive amount of respect to those who

can

give full reasoning on the full playerlist, but I personally cannot.

However, I won't refuse a smaller-scale explanation. Pick and choose the reads you most want me to answer and I

can

do that.

[XIII Roxas]

Ftr I take significant issue with this; if you had read the rest of the post you would clearly see that my motivation for that vote was to work with a townread and push the gamestate out of stagnancy - you're literally taking that vote out of context and slapping on scum motivation that is completely nonexistent in context. I don't know if this is a complete failure of reading on your part or just you being scum but that shit is caricature and doesn't fly.

Okay let's do it this way then.

Don't have time to respond to anything else in detail but

Xigbar I don't understand the Xaldin read at all

?

Pretty willing to follow you there purely in the interest of moving the game forwards

considering how much time we have left in the day just as long as this doesn't devolve into a nullread / lurker goosechase but

I don't understand at all why you're scumreading the slot as hard as you are

. Don't think that scumreading Axel less because they're too scummy is good reasoning at all especially when I'm pretty much 99% on the altguess there. I'm fine with you feeling a little paranoid about my slot but I think that'll probably go away for you once you realize who I am / once I push a lynch on scum (basically no doubt left in my mind about who you are).

Vote: Xaldin

Regardless of Xaldin's alignment I don't like this vote.

It's explicitly piggybacking off of the momentum already present. I honestly don't have a read on Xaldin whatsoever. He could be town; he could be scum. If he's town this vote looks like hopping onto a free mislynch because Zexion would carry zero blame for it. If he's scum, this looks like the scum bus zone, where he's hopping on at the exact right moment to hopefully obtain towncred.

---

Nothing changed by me including the context behind the vote because the context was irrelevant to my point. Actually I take that back. My point was actually

backed by

context; I've bolded the parts which make that clear. I excluded it because I felt my point was obvious enough without including the extra verbiage.

[XIII Roxas]

{Xaldin}

Yucky.

By Yucky, did you mean that Xaldin is Yucky, or did you mean that my Xaldin stance is Yucky?

Regardless of which, I could use elaboration.

[XIII Roxas]

By Yucky, did you mean that Xaldin is Yucky, or did you mean that my Xaldin stance is Yucky?

Stance. Play has moderately improved since Page 1.

I'm going to need specifics here because I got the opposite impression of Xaldin.

[XIII Roxas]

It is really hard to think about your alignment when my kneejerk reaction to your signing here is

I

like

you!

If my read on your identity is correct...you don't like anyone in this game more than me.

[XIII Roxas]

By Yucky, did you mean that Xaldin is Yucky, or did you mean that my Xaldin stance is Yucky?

Stance. Play has moderately improved since Page 1.

I'm going to need specifics here because I got the opposite impression of Xaldin.

I back this up with posts like this:

Man game is slow.

Godfather

Godfather isn't immune, he comes back as town, scum.godfsther would want to be targeted not discourage it. How did you even come to that conclusion.

Wherein Xaldin continues to do nothing.

So to what do you cite as evidence for Xaldin being town?

[XIII Roxas]

My friends, I'm happy to announce that Vexen is about to return from his prolonged excursion in Castle Oblivion. You may notice that his personality has undergone some... adjustments during his visit. Please try not to call attention to these changes; we do not want to upset our friend, do we?

Spoiler: we killed him. Sorry not sorry?

You would say this as he was getting in the way of your plans for my counterpart. But technically speaking it wouldn't be you who killed him so much as Axel.
(At least I assume so off of 73. My limited flavor knowledge will become increasingly obvious as the game unfolds.)

[XIII Roxas]

Dunno who the player behind the Keyblade is.

I'm actually surprised at this, since if you are the player I've begun to suspect you may be (in which case I'd be vindicated in my townread of you since that is a read nearly impossible to get wrong), you and I have played many games together. I would think you would have recognized my style of posting.

[XIII Roxas]

Who is opposed to Axel lynch and why?

I am, on the grounds he is the exact thing you describe:

Scurrying for a legit lynch at the last moment will results in a mislynch.

A deadline-mislynch.

[XIII Roxas]

Wherein Xaldin continues to do nothing.

OK - and that's your best scumtell on him?

Not even close. It was however a nice illustration of my point. Xaldin's contribution to the game is incredibly lackluster.

[XIII Roxas]

What about Axel's contribution?

What about it? I have no issues with it, have seen none presented with it, and quite like what I have seen of it.

[XIII Roxas]

If you can possibly go over your Demyx read for me that would be pretty helpful; not really sure whether their entrance pinged you because it was an imitation or for some other reason or why your suspicion there started to ease.

I...am going to level with you.

You have altslipped so I now know who you are.

However this is quite perplexing because I thought

Demyx

was you. (Demyx's flavor knowledge and entrance felt like something which fit for you, so them being you was my best guess.) They aren't who I thought they are and yet I'm still positive I know them all the same. And I can't figure it out on any level. I'm left with less answers than I had before and more questions I can't quite articulate. I

should

know them. (That much I am certain of.) Not only who they are but what their alignment is. But frustratingly, I can tell you neither.

[XIII Roxas]

I'm not sure I like the fact that you're catching up on page 15 but have read this page to know that I altslipped. I'm not really interested in talking about who Demyx may or may not be.

That was not me on page 15. I was caught up. Prior to seeing your identity I wasn't going to respond to 359 at all. It was only when I learned your identity that I went back to address your point. There is a ten minute gap between my posts. That gap was me reading, seeing your identity, and only then going back to respond.

[XIII Roxas]

Apologies but I'll need to take a

48 hour V/LA

. I shall return Sunday.

[XIII Roxas]

As promised, I have returned.

I can't make sense of your Larxene read or your Axel read.

Remind me to do this in 12-24 hours.

I'd definitely like it if you went back over Demyx's content and come back with what your read is there because a wrong altguess is absolutely something that can skew a read in one direction or another and I'd be interested to hear what your take is now that you don't know what your take is.

Not knowing who Demyx is doesn't change my read of not knowing what Demyx's alignment is. I am almost positive that Demyx is someone in my circle of friends, but while I now know Demyx isn't you, I still don't know who Demyx actually

is

.

I have a feeling I should know Demyx's alignment. But even were I able to pin down Demyx's identity accurately, at this stage I don't think I would be able to even with the aid of that meta. I can't tell. And I

should

be able to tell. And I don't know how to get my grip and suddenly tell. No matter what angle I approach Demyx from I can't figure Demyx out. From play, I can't lock the slot down. From meta, I can't lock the slot down. From presence, I can't lock the slot down. I shouldn't have Demyx as this level of extreme ambivalence. Yet that's the most accurate description of what Demyx is to me.

[XIII Roxas]

(For what little value it adds at this stage Xigbar is in fact a townread but I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly how strong of one. He's moved from being in the ambivalent zone to north of null, but by how far I'd have to spend a little more time on the read to let it mature. I figure this is vaguely important as it removes any interest whatsoever of me voting the slot, but given how improbable it'd be for a wagon there to ever materialize in the first place this is not very relevant to the current happenings.)

[XIII Roxas]

This is not how Town Xaldin talks to me here.

I am strongly inclined to agree and also think it pushes you even further up the town chart.

[XIII Roxas]

If you guessed who I am from that post I would be surprised.

Well then I guess it just works perfectly that I'm ~full of surprises~.
VOTE: Xaldin

This is also not a bus vote.

[XIII Roxas]

My impression of Roxas's behavior matches up more with what is known in layman's terms as "lynchbait" than a traitor.

Lynching me ain't impossible but it sure isn't easy enough where I'd merit the title. I maybe get lynched in 20% of my games? Rough estimate because that's not something I pay attention to.

[XIII Roxas]

Vexen [1] - Demyx
Saïx [4] - Axel, Lexaeus, Vexen, Luxord
Xaldin [5] - Larxene, Roxas, Marluxia, Xigbar, Zexion
Axel [2] - Xemnas, Saïx
Not Voting: Xaldin

Vexen [1] - Demyx
Saïx [4] - Axel, Lexaeus, Vexen, Luxord
Xaldin [3] - Roxas, Marluxia, Xigbar
Axel [4] - Xemnas, Saïx, Larxene, Zexion
Not Voting: Xaldin

I am very much not fond of the shrinking size of the Xaldin wagon and hate the Axel wagon. For that matter the Saix wagon isn't great either. Prior to looking at the votecounts I was feeling like I was getting ready to maybe call a scumteam, but now I'm not nearly as sure. I need to reevaluate since I'm not happy with my stances right now.

[XIII Roxas]

luxord has been prodded

This is probably scum in addition to Xaldin no matter what at this stage.

[XIII Roxas]

Prior to looking at the votecounts I was feeling like I was getting ready to maybe call a scumteam, but now I'm not nearly as sure.

To elaborate,

{Xemnas, Larxene}
{Axel, Marluxia}
{Lexaeus}
{Vexen}
{Saix}
{Xigbar, Demyx}
{Zexion, Luxord}
{Xaldin}
Strong-town > town > weak-town > townlean > null > mixed (ambivalent) > scumlean > scumread.

Changed from this? I was willing to call Zexion town with Xaldin remaining as scum. I was ready to keep calling Luxord as probably scum. Xigbar would get bumped up at least a couple of tiers if not more. (This is most likely staying.) As a result, I was getting ready to call a scumteam of Xaldin, Luxord, and then either Demyx or Saix with a strong lean towards Demyx. But now I'm not so sure; is that actually viable with the vote distribution we're seeing? I'm not so sure so I think I cleared a town player I shouldn't have.

I don't have the time today to sort through the entire playerlist and figure out where I may be going wrong so I'll be doing so tomorrow.

[XIII Roxas]

Like I just don't get how anyone is townreading Axel in any universe and I'm fairly sure that if Luxord isn't scum after that then Demyx is because there's no way a player who is at least competent the way Demyx seems to be would read that shit as "oh I get your townread there Roxas", like that's just blatant as fuck pocketing and anyone who knows Roxas knows that all you need to do to pocket him forever and beyond is to buy into his reads / narrative. Doesn't matter how much he scumreads you beforehand if you just agree with him you're suddenly a townread.

Dude you are smoking something really strong here. Agreeing with Roxas is the fastest way to get scumread. Like every time I have I've had a paranoia burst from them so you're just flat wrong here through my experiences alone.

Can confirm: I am incredibly difficult to pocket or otherwise influence. I may at times hold strong townreads on unusual players, but these reads aren't based off of any deliberate effort by the players in question. Quite the opposite, deliberate effort is indeed a good way to ping me hard.

Which... Oh lookie here! Town again! Doing it again! Having Roxas suspect me again!

You know given my current stance on you I hate to bring it up because it doesn't do your argument you're town many favors, but...I do kinda sorta townread your outburst here.

This is also not a bus vote.

OK - that's fair but you at least agree there's something suspicious about it? Doesn't fit the puzzle of Zexion too well.

Knowing who Zexion is, I'd say it actually does fit them as town. There is something suspicious about the wagons we've had, but Zexion isn't the main contributor to that.

[XIII Roxas]

Free townread for anyone who hammers.

I'm

incredibly

tempted to.

Like, you have no idea how much I'm keeping my impulsive side in check by not casting a surprise!lolhammer vote.

Because as much as I want to go "fuck it" and just hammer now...Xaldin IS owed the chance to claim.

[XIII Roxas]

Fuck it.
I'm not going to fullclaim, but...part of my role is that I can do this:

SECOND VOTE: Xaldin.

[XIII Roxas]

You have no clue how long I've wanted to do that. To go, "SURPRISE!" and spring this on someone. I do have to manually activate the double-vote, but I can in fact cast the double-vote. I KNOW. I should have waited for a claim. I KNOW. Lolhammers are antitown. But...it was just...

sitting

there, as just so much of a golden opportunity. I couldn't pass it up.

[XIII Roxas]

(And yes by the way. The double-vote does in fact not function in mylo/lylo in case anyone was wondering. )

[XIII Roxas]

(You would not BELIEVE my reaction upon receiving this role. The double-vote half was hilarious enough but that's only half of my role.)

[XIII Roxas]

Roxas's gambit amused me, but a real hammer would be much much better.

I don't understand why Xaldin isn't dead?

I'm not gambiting, I'm not joking.

I have a double-vote so Xaldin SHOULD be dead right now?

[XIII Roxas]

Rox, what was the point of the charade?

It's not a fucking charade; I legit have a double-vote and the mods checked in (albeit only with a prod) so they should be ending the day and I don't understand why they haven't.

I'll ping them.

[XIII Roxas]

Hold please.

Xaldin [6] - Roxas, Marluxia, Xigbar, Zexion, Lexaeus, Demyx

I need to ask the mods some questions about my double-vote because I was under the impression I was in fact hammering Xaldin.

[XIII Roxas]

Can I say I hate Saix's posts in that area regardless of Xaldin's alignment?

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Roxas
Explain or die.

This vote is pretty ew as well.

[XIII Roxas]

Fascinating. Your decision to insist on this lie, that is.

Because it's not a fucking lie. I'm talking it over with the mods to see what went wrong. I am an activated double-voter. That's not me making up bullshit. It's half my role.

[XIII Roxas]

@roxas I recommend asking the mod a lot of questions if you don't know what happened there but I get a feeling that you might have some idea by virtue of how excited you are about your role. not saying more on that tho obvs

I am already in this process. I will let you know when I hear back from them.

[XIII Roxas]

Okay so the mods are jerks.
I was under the impression that if there was intent to cast the second vote in bold it'd work.

But in order to actually cast the vote, I need to use the

exact

key phrase to do so.

Give me strength!

Now

I'm a double-voter and Xaldin has a second vote from me on him automatically.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Luxord

I'll join you there but only if the Xaldin wagon falls apart. (Which is going to be harder because of having my double-vote.)

[XIII Roxas]

Roxas why do you like being a double voter?

I'm a fan of irony. I don't like being a double-voter so much as I like the surrounding circumstances. I'd normally elaborate but normally I wouldn't be protecting my anonymity.

[XIII Roxas]

Fuck why do I have no impulse control.
VOTE: Luxord.

[XIII Roxas]

I promise you, Roxas, you are not anonymous to a single fucking person in this game.

You would

think

so, but given the many people who have proclaimed they were mistaken on my identity when I disclosed I'm not from California, you would be wrong.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Luxord

L-2 by the way. Call to Arms makes me a double-voter for the whole day so when I moved to Luxord I moved with the weight of two votes. See 684's Xaldin wagon to get an idea of what I mean. Xigbar, Demyx, Roxas x2, and Xemnas makes 5/7.

[XIII Roxas]

Quickly coming in to say I may need to take 24-48 hours of personal time and thus be

V/LA

though I honestly don't know for certain. I know I'm probably not around today at the very least.

[XIII Roxas]

So I hate to do this, but:

V/LA for about one week or so.

Those who know my identity should know why; for those who don't know my identity, I cannot specify details without giving away who I am.
I won't go an entire week without posting (nor will I go an entire week with exclusively prod-dodging); I'll be posting on some days. However, thanks to the V/LA, I will be entirely dark for other days and unable to play altogether.

[XIII Roxas]

I've been out of the game for a while so I did a soft-reset reads-wise.

Saïx [2] - Axel, Luxord
Xaldin [5] - Roxas, Marluxia, Zexion, Lexaeus
Axel [2] - Saïx, Larxene
Xigbar [1] - Xaldin
Roxas [1] - Vexen
Luxord [2] - Xigbar, Demyx
Not Voting: Xemnas

VOTE: Luxord.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Luxord

VOTE: Saix

Saïx [3] - Axel, Luxord, Vexen
Xaldin [2] - Marluxia, Lexaeus
Axel [2] - Saïx, Larxene
Xigbar [1] - Xaldin
Luxord [5] - Xigbar, Demyx, Roxas, Xemnas
Not Voting: Zexion

I pause there because Luxord's vote change marks the end of the peak of the Saix wagon. We get an official VC so I'll use this next.

Saïx [2] - Axel, Vexen
Xaldin [3] - Marluxia, Lexaeus, Luxord
Axel [2] - Saïx, Larxene
Xigbar [1] - Xaldin
Luxord [5] - Xigbar, Demyx, Roxas, Xemnas
Not Voting: Zexion

VOTE: Axel?

(+Axel -Luxord)

Vote: Marluxia

(+Vanity -Xaldin)

VOTE: Marluxia

(+Marluxia which was still arguably vanity -Xaldin)

VOTE: Vexen

(+Vanity -Luxord)

Vote: Axel

(+Axel -Xaldin)

Vote: Axel

Saïx [1] - Vexen
Xaldin [1] - Luxord
Axel [5] - Saïx, Larxene, Xigbar, Marluxia, Zexion
Xigbar [1] - Xaldin
Luxord [3] - Roxas, Xemnas
Marluxia [2] - Axel, Lexaeus
Vexen [1] - Demyx

UNVOTE:

Kills the vanity Marluxia wagon.

VOTE: Lexaeus

(+Then-vanity albeit attempted otherwise -Axel)

Then we get the lynch wagon. I'll quote it in a sec but first I want to quote every post's reasoning for voting there.

VOTE: Larxene
Don't think this has ever had any opposition but it's never really happened. Let's make it happen!

More town than not. Though the misread of Larxene is bad, the attempt to get a wagon through at deadline looks town enough.

Yeah, I can do Larxene.
VOTE: Larxene
@Axel
Is that one-shot or can you use it indefinitely?

More scum than not. This is mostly gut so I can't quite word why but I do not like this vote at all.

Larxene flips town btw

vote: Larxene

Mostly null but if I had to pick one, town. There's a hint of survivalism mixed with knowing he can use his role to get us immediately into the next day.

Miller lynch is only mildly preferable to no lynch IMO.
Still though....
VOTE: Larxene

More town than not. More or less, explains that it's not a

good

wagon, but it's better than NO wagon. Whether you agree with the theory or not, that is a stance I don't think anyone would lie about. I think the

handling

of the stance is what makes it town, in his approach here.

Vote: Larxene

I liked Larxene 1.0. I feel very strongly that the Axel claim is a scumclaim to buy him an extra day, but don't have the charisma to push that lynch through. I don't think following a townread on a good vote is the "stupidest thing ever"; I think voting said townread would be the "stupidest thing ever".

This is the strongest town vote on there. This post bleeds a level of sincerity in the defeatism attitude. It's just all kinds of "I don't like this but I can't give you anything better".

I was under the impression Vexen hammered.
VOTE: Larxene
just in case I guess.

The hammer itself is null. The attitude expressed prior to that point is what I find suspicious:

jfc both these wagons are balls wtf are you smoking Xig?

Along the same lines, another notable absence who I feel was scum lurking on the sidelines:

Axel, this is why I talked about lynching you 11 days ago. You see how shifty the town is. Flitting from one wagon to the other.

Which takes us to here:

Xaldin [1] - Luxord
Axel [3] - Saïx, Larxene, Zexion
Xigbar [1] - Xaldin
Luxord [2] - Roxas

Larxene [7] - Xigbar, Lexaeus, Axel, Xemnas, Vexen, Marluxia, Demyx

What is there to conclude from this?

Well, we know Larxene was town.
I'm willing to wager so too was Axel.

But the Luxord wagon falling apart prior to that is sketchy-as-hell, and Demyx moving off of there is the switch sticking out the most.

Zexion's votes are okay. Not great, but not terrible.
Vexen's votes look town.
Xigbar's vote changes look more town than not.
Axel's votes are mostly neutral but I feel Axel is town by other merits. (Not role ones, just I don't think Axel's play is scum.)
Lexaeus could be scum. There was suspicion on him yet it never materialized into much. His votes also suck.
Demyx very strongly looks like scum. Votes not great, presence even worse.
Marluxia is very strongly town. I was townreading Marluxia before and the end-of-day presence only strengthens my read further.
Saix's lack of contribution during the time sticks out most of all.

Give me a moment to process this in the forms of a reads list.

[XIII Roxas]

{Xemnas}
{Axel, Marluxia}
{Xigbar}
{Vexen}
{Zexion}
{Lexaeus, Xaldin}
{Saix}
{Demyx}
{Luxord}

About this.
Confirmed town -> Strong town -> Town -> Townlean -> Null -> Scumlean -> Weak scumread -> Scumread -> Strong scumread.

VOTE: Luxord.
Btw I can't double-vote today (I shouldn't elaborate on the why) so this is a single.

[XIII Roxas]

Actually just merge Saix with the Lexaeus/Xaldin tier. It's more of Lexaeus/Xaldin being stronger scumreads than just scumleans than Saix being weaker than a weak scumread.

Still, that's my voting pool. I will lynch any of Xaldin/Lexaeus/Saix/Demyx/Luxord. Three are scum, two are town.

[XIII Roxas]

You must. You were pathetic in last 24 hours. It's sad to see how you have pocketed most of the town. If your alt-slip is anything to go by, you are playing just as you always do. You need to leave the game, yes, and by that I mean you need to be immediately lynched.
VOTE: Xigbar
I may not have as much credibility as you do in this game, so I can only try my best to lynch you. Axel is always gonna be there. But since I have a some idea regarding who you are, I know how incredibly manipulative you are. And so, you need to be lynched right now.

This is a thinly-veiled attempt at a policy-lynch. It is refusing to take responsibility for Xigbar's inevitable townflip and it is also refusing to do genuine scumhunting.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Demyx
PEdit: Goddamnit, can I vote Saix too?

I also really, really like this Vexen. He is seeing the same approximate thing I am well before I have voiced so much of one iota about this. In fact, to the contrary: I've previously expressed nothing of the sort in terms of actual Demyx/Saix scumreads. This could therefore not be an attempt to pocket someone (namely, me) and is infinitely more likely to simply be Vexen expressing the opinion most natural to him, a trait I associate with town.

[XIII Roxas]

Axel's PR is really pro-town, the question is whether it makes him inherently town.

@Axel:

Does your role PM state any exceptions for the hated thing, such as when going to LYLO? If not, could you ask the mods if LYLO would be an exception for your role?

I would judge Axel by play over role 100% of the time. My conclusion: still town. I never really got the case for Axel being scum, yet Axel's contribution is loaded with content which at every step of the way has made me think town.

[XIII Roxas]

Mod, do scums have a day chat?
Was the scum PT open before the game began?

I think people need to realise that what Axel did (or didn't) do can't be proven. I would believe his claim only if the answers to both the questions above were negative.

This is also slimy-as-

hell

.

[XIII Roxas]

Nope. Coz wiping a night could still be a scum ability, and scum!Axel could have either done it himself or could have shared the message from his teammate if the scum pt is open throughout. If he is a town, he is now effectively a vt. If he is a scum, he is a scum. He is useless to the game. Best to lynch him.

[XIII Roxas]

Reading up torrow have a few thoughts I need to sort out.

Swear to god I don't understand how anyone even remotely has a townread here.

[XIII Roxas]

Can someone explain to me a world where Saix will tunnel down my throat for "not posting enough in-game content" but doesn't say shit about Marluxia other than calling him a SR once and forgetting about him the entire game?

Or doesn't read your posts/the game at all enough to realize that no actions happened last night.

Axel may have promised to skip the night, but anyone who has any night action would have still submitted their actions. Which is why I asked Xaldin about whom they tracked. Coz if Xaldin promises to be who he is, his night action gives me a clue to his thoughts.

If you keep throwing shade at me without understanding the intent, you are doing exactly what you are proclaiming to avoid. I will not be replacing, but I will not be interacting with you. Your name-calling in an earlier post was uncalled for, but this required quoting you.

:shade.gif:

Forgot about fast night reading in a few hours

Seriously. What the fuck is town about ^this^.

[XIII Roxas]

V: I don't think Lexaeus would actually play like this as scum. I go back to how in early game I felt like they were doing something that's particularly town indicative. They continue to strike me as that.

Lexaeus

was

a townread to me in the earlygame but that has since faded away. If I have the time (doubt I will until Monday), I'll try and go back and reread for myself but I'd love for you to point out specifics here.

VII Saix: I've had a strong feeling all game that this is bad town. With virtually any scumteam possibility I can come up with, their play makes no sense as scum. Someone on their team would be telling them to stop poking me.

You can't use the "someone on their team would be telling them to stop poking me" logic for every player who pushes you. Xaldin is and yet is a candidate for scum. Vexen is and yet you firmly believe is scum. (I disagree strongly there but eh whatevs.) There's probably more but I want something more than "if they were scum they wouldn't be attacking me", and the excuse of 'bad town' doesn't cut it for me because there's absolutely nothing telling me they're not just slimy scum.

X Luxord: I think that this is town for two reasons. First off, I had a major town ping from the original Luxord on day

And this one I definitely want an explanation on. Especially since what you wrote here was cut off.

[XIII Roxas]

This game becomes impossible to follow when it starts delving inti the meta if people I can't identify, and orobably don't know. I have no idea who Vexen is, and while Xiggy's explanation gave me some idea with regards to their thought process, I still don't have enough to know what I should look for.

I asked that question about Axel because I wanted to know if the role would be broken as a scum role. Turns out it's not, but at least Axel answered that honestly.

This pings me.
Not sure how though.
Also I haven't read anything but this page.
Need to read stuff

Fuck it.
VOTE: Demyx.

[XIII Roxas]

Still not really liking Xaldins play here nothing of it pings town to me gonna have to take a closer look at Axel here.

Screw my Lexaeus doubt.
Screw my dying Xaldin scumread.

It's just these three.

Luxord.
Saix.
Demyx.

Dead serious. Lynch them. Any order. You get scum after scum after scum.

[XIII Roxas]

Rox, assuming I'm right as to who it is is also a largely logical player. He was a bit of a boogeyman when I first joined, similar to Thor and AngryPidgeon, when I first joined, but that kind of went downhill shortly after.

Apparently you were wrong because logic and I don't mix well. I also have never been to my knowledge a boogeyman.

[XIII Roxas]

Btw not really relevant but at this point you can pretty much move Xigbar up into the strong-town category.

[XIII Roxas]

Also if one more person uses meta to justify a read, I am voting their ass and not moving it for remainder of game. I don't care if you use meta to internally read a player but stop explaining the read as meta.

Hey so I have a pretty strong meta read on Roxas. I know his identity really well, and I'm positive, knowing his meta, that this is his towngame.

[XIII Roxas]

I wouldn't be surprised by a mason claim as scum from that person.

I don't claim masons as scum. Too much risk involved, not enough reward because nobody buys it anyway.
Now, claiming mason as TOWN on the other hand...

What i don't like abt rox's recent posts is that it gives an impression that he has logically arrived at conclusions after vca and various posts.

Your mistake was thinking logic has anything to do with how I operate!

But in reality, he is picking and choosing arguments and posts that justify his already formed views. The insincerity in reversing the cause and effect relationship (between his views and peoples votes n posts) is really scummy, but it is such an obvious attempt of misinterpretation that it is likely to come from a town.

Not true but whatever makes you feel better I guess.

[XIII Roxas]

Axel is probably scum, he used his power when it was least helpful to town, infant it arguably screwed us over since n1 is when we have the most night actions.

Literally no town reason to use it but scum? Both as a proving measure for survival and most optimal time.

Demyx is town imo his "case" on me is blah and I could care less for his scumread but yeah.

[XIII Roxas]

Why didn't he say that till now, and why are you defending on their behalf? I am assuming you felt like dodging the prod, so you came and made a statement. You can go to your hibernation.

[XIII Roxas]

For what it's worth, Lexaeus is hitting all the right notes right now, especially with posts like 1058.

And why aren't you voting Roxas?

Because Zexion has an interest in not scumclaiming regardless of their alignment. (Which is probably town, but with some reservations at this point.)

Scum Pawn.

I am the

polar opposite

of a scum pawn. In literally ANY scumteam regardless of composition I will be the backbone of scum planning. The mastermind, not the mook. Also, anyone who thinks that I can be easily pocketed by scum is dead-wrong. I'm not gonna say I'm inherently a force which will drive the game towards scum lynches. But I'm also by far not the force driving the game away from them either. (Mostly because I'm not a force with drive at all. )

The person who Rox apparently isn't doesn't do things for shits and giggles.

More proof you got my identity wrong because I

do

do things for shits and giggles.

doublevoter not fitting at all with their first post of the game.

On the contrary! I was very clear from the get-go. I said half of my role would be a role people would assume as being town even though it's no guarantee. That half is the double-voter. The

other

half is what made me ask to be investigated. That half is still applicable.

[XIII Roxas]

What if I told you I am a tracker of things?

Then I'd call you scum bullshitting because you're attempting a soft-CC rather than making a hard-CC, while not voting the person you're soft-CCing.

[XIII Roxas]

I'd defend Saix and Xigbar from a lynch.

I keep on seeing people call Saix town.
And I keep on thinking what the fuck are they smoking.

Because I really don't see it.
Anywhere.
Even remotely.

[XIII Roxas]

I'm about 1/4 of the way caught up and I'm bored. Anyone want to talk about the game?

Demyx, Luxord, and Saix are the most likely scumteam.

Others are possible (namely Xaldin), but less likely.

People want to waste a whole lot of time talking about lynching outside of that group, when really anything outside of there won't go through or if for some godawful reason did will make people instantly regret it did when they see the townflip because no shit they lynched outside of the group which has the three scum in it.

[XIII Roxas]

Hello, who is the scums?

Shouldn't that info be in your PT?

[XIII Roxas]

What are your thoughts on Luxord's claim?

It's an absolutely neutral role. Nothing inherently town or scum about it. It could be given to town, it could be given to scum. Ignore the role, focus on play. And Luxord's play makes the slot a scumfuck. Every occupant of the slot has been the same.

[XIII Roxas]

I'm curious why you think this was the nail in the coffin.

I'm not really in an explainy mood (yes I have those, no I'm not in one right now), so I can't really give you the details there even though I want to. It's just the everything in the area. It was so fake. Everything about Demyx is just...hollow and empty. There's nothing sincere in anything he's doing. His push on me? Shallow. His stances? Practically nonexistent. He's shitting the thread up in an attempt to look town (in that case by faking a townslip), without actually

being

town.

[XIII Roxas]

Why didn't he say that till now, and why are you defending on their behalf? I am assuming you felt like dodging the prod, so you came and made a statement. You can go to your hibernation.

Why were you shutting Xemnas the First down here?

(Because Saix is scum and all the people townreading Saix have so consistently refused to explain the read to my exasperation.)

[XIII Roxas]

Do you think having a double vote

should

be enough to townbin a player in a role madness game?

Nope! Especially not a gated doublevoter! There's a reason I asked to be investigated after all. It's a role which, sure, looks town enough but really isn't actually town in of itself. I want to be cleared as town because of the other half of my role because me as conftown = town autowin essentially.

[XIII Roxas]

I'm a relic from a bygone age who spent most of his time talking to relics of bygone ages and sitechat when I was a ms regular. Between all of my secret alts (last count was 6 discounting hydrae) I've played in exactly 3 games (including this one) in the last year.

I may know the secret alt you are referring to (in that I spent time on site chat and saw an alt which fits this description talking on there), but I never did figure out the identity of the person behind said alt.

[XIII Roxas]

I think everyone is forgetting my 1v1 with Roxas right now. This should not be taken lightly. Very important stuff. Most important stuff. Guranteed scum in pair. Maybe both.

Indeed it is!

It means we should be lynching you!

[XIII Roxas]

Actually: VOTE: Saix
Let's go with that. 1v1 over, I declared myself the winner.

This is a bus vote.

[XIII Roxas]

If saix Lynch goes through autolynch demyx.

I actually agree with this!

Regardless of Saix's alignment (although I think Saix is scum), Demyx is just scum.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Lex

This is scum voting a vanity wagon for what it's worth.

[XIII Roxas]

Bleh I honestly lack the energy to do something tonight but I'm obligated to try.

Maybe they aren't in an explainy mood.

While this is a fair burn, the thing is that other players have no reason to lack an explainy mood whereas I have one.

Bonus points if you actually engage me! I've made posts with content in them about Lex. You could engage them.

I don't recall.

You could explain why 1058 is town!

I normally would but right now I just...literally don't have the energy/ability to do so. Like, you're actually doing exactly the thing I need in exactly the way I'd need to be in a mood to answer it. I don't feel like brushing it off. I don't feel like dismissing it. I feel like answering it. But right now I can't which is why I feel so shitty because you just did something I've been waiting ages for someone to do and yet now that it's actually been done I currently can't actually engage you in it.

Looking forward to Roxas grabbing one sentence from this post and calling it a scumclaim.

Actually...the opposite.

I also think because of what Roxas said I am less inclined to think Saix is now scum. But meh. Keeping my vote there still.

[XIII Roxas]

(Basically I'm losing confidence in most of my reads but none more so than the Luxord scumread I had. I'm not sure how to vocalize this right now. I'm also not really sure I want to. I mean I can be stubborn but I'm more than willing to back down from a push and more than willing to admit I'm wrong but it's not just that. It's just that. Gah. Words aren't there. The implications of being wrong I guess? That seems like a shitty way of putting it though.)

[XIII Roxas]

Can't tell if Roxas is actually just open wolfing or if RL is making it seem that way

?????
I mean yeah I've been having lots of things happen in real life buuuuuuut...there's literally no realm where I look like scum? Yet alone "openly scum". Yes as scum I will be cheeky but this game the only cheekiness I've had is stuff I have good reason to be cheeky about (e.g. my claim).

I feel like half of your posts directed at me have just been a thinly veiled attempt to fuck with me

For better or for worse that's an inherent part of Zexion's (town?)game. (I don't actually know if Zexion does it as scum but I know Zexion does it as town, so.)

It would go a long way if people were to start trying to fight things on some kind of substantive level instead of just fanciful gut feels. Lol.

The problem is. That's all I've got right now. Normally. Normally I would augment the "fanciful gut feels" with substantive stuff. Not logic proper because I'm allergic to good explanations but more nuanced than just feeling. But right now. I don't have anything coherent.

Every scumteam that I've made has made sense at the time, where I could see the narrative where all of them were scum.
Yet every time, I am then given bit by bit reason to significantly question that conclusion, until it utterly falls apart and my fanciful gut feels tell me that it was wrong, it was very very VERY wrong and that I need to find something else. And for the most part I've been doing so, yet. I'm stuck, if that makes sense.

So fucking tempted to vote for Vex. Two different people in the same slot finding me suspicious? That's a big, big coincidence. I mean, either I am generally very scummy such that two independent people filling the same slot find me scummy, or that slot is scum as fuck.

But it's Xigbar today. Needs to go for his D1 push. This is exactly how that idiot plays, if I have got them right.

[XIII Roxas]

her paranoia on me in particular seemed fake.

You were an early scumread.
You also prefer playing as scum and have a very very very strong scumgame.
These are what I meant by reservations.

You are otherwise town.
I don't see how you can even really call that paranoia.
It's more like slow to trust. You're quite aware I'll often write your slot off as town and not bother sorting it...but both because this is an alt game and because this is a mini, instead I am giving a more honest read. And I'm not going to lie about my read on you and call you infallible town when you're simply not that strong of a townread. You

are

a townread. But it is a townread with reservations and damn right I have them because I have every fucking reason to have reservations.

[XIII Roxas]

Okay so I don't have the words to vocalize the why but at this point I absolutely do need to vocalize: 1428 is town. This is not the only post of Luxord's which is town in that area mind you. Most of them area, really. But while a fair number of Luxord's posts are town, they've mostly been "passively override my mental file on reads" town, in that they are things I processed as being town but didn't feel a particularly strong need/desire to vocalize as town because it just didn't feel like it was appropriate. (I can't word well.)

But that post. I can't just walk on by it. I need to draw attention to it. Because it is town. The tone. The nuance in the expression of ideas. The thought process there. It's a post which I fully know people will wonder why the fuck I think is town because people on a glance might think it's not alignment indicative. But they couldn't be more wrong. That post bleeds town, and the most frustrating thing is I can't really find the right words to properly explain it.

It's just. The kind of thing that I guess is. "Takes one to know one"? Luxord displays a high level of self-awareness and self-reflection and is just going off in a way which is giving a direct insight into Luxord's mind during the game and it's not an agenda I see. It's town.

[XIII Roxas]

Roxas' self-assurance and ability to form reads quickly seems to be a cyclic thing. My impression of her recent play in other games is that she's been in uncertainty mode. In this game, she's projecting a lot of certainty about her reads. This transition seems relatively fast.

You got it literally backwards?
I mean. You're right that I am an incredibly cyclic player. But I haven't been in uncertainty mode in months. The opposite, I've been spewing confidence strongly in every single game I can recall...

except

for this one. You're saying I'm confident in this game but what the fuck gave you that impression it's literally the opposite. (Yes I know I'm making your point for you anyway just the other way around because this game being uncertainty when other games are certainty does stick out but. I can't let this stand.)

Not being explainy seems odd, mostly because she's not explaining the lack of explainyness in more detail, and the lack of explaining reads is usually hand-in-hand with having unsure reads not strong ones. Not always, but often.

This is an alt game.

I am still trying to maintain some semblance of anonymity. Being explainy in more detail is something which would give away my identity unambiguously. In particular, there's one comment I'd love to make about a lot of my lack of explaining (and it's actually frustrating that I can't make that comment because it'd explain so much yet reveal too much), yet I can't because if I did then there would be absolutely zero ambiguity of who I am whatsoever.

And yes, people can have and are still getting it wrong so I'm not about to help them out by giving them that lead. This is an alt game. I didn't really bother to try and hide my identity (I am quite skilled at doing so when I try), but I'm also not going to blatantly advertise it (at least not intentionally), either. So while I'd love to explain my lack of explainyness more, I literally can't.

[XIII Roxas]

We share 2/3 of our scumreads. Why don't you get past the fact that you feel the urge to policy lynch me and instead direct your energy at lynching Vexscum?

Vex, not yet. Lynch Axel with me. At best he is a VT now that he has used his power (so he says).

[XIII Roxas]

Case tonight.

Xigbar, for someone who has one of (if not the) best scumgames on the entire site you sure are a bad liar.

[XIII Roxas]

I don't think a scum player would claim this.

I do but I've got no intention of pushing that through, so.

[XIII Roxas]

A better way of saying it would be that I don't think the kind of player Saix appears to be would claim this as scum. Do you disagree?

Agreeing or disagreeing would rely on me having a lock on the type of player Saix is.

I have no such lock.

I would like to use my passive killing ability (death for someone who nightkills me) rather than active killing ability (vig).
The first ability ensures a town till the endgame. If I use my vig ability, I will be an effective VT and have less of a use to the town.

We share 2/3 of our scumreads. Why don't you get past the fact that you feel the urge to policy lynch me and instead direct your energy at lynching Vexscum?

Vex, not yet. Lynch Axel with me.

At best he is a VT now that he has used his power (so he says).

[XIII Roxas]

I'm both a protective role, and an investigative.

I'm a protective role as well, though my secondary function is not investigative, which is why I wanted to know if Xemnas could survive a kill attempt.

I need to think about this.

Because I've also got a kill-prevention role.

The first half of my role, the double-voter, is already known.

The second half of my role is a conditional bulletproof. (The condition is, I need to be on the lynch of scum. If I lynch scum then I become bulletproof for the remainder of the game.) This is why I asked to be investigated; bulletproof conftown = game win. You can see multiple breadcrumbs of this though my favorite's got to be the Zero To Hero breadcrumb I left. (Zero To Hero is a song from Hercules. Hercules, in Heartless's last game, was a conditional bulletproof with a near-identical rule to my role.)

Yet now you're saying.
We have Saix, who's claiming bomb.
Me, with a conditional bulletproof.
And two protective PRs also claimed.
Then, ON TOP OF ALL THAT, we have Axel's nightskip which acts as a fifth.

That's not all town.
I realize TellTaleHeart likes her townsided games.
I also realize that adding similar/duplicate roles is something they can and will do.
But FIVE KILL DETERRENTS in a MINI.
Is fuck no. Not even a role madness mini. I don't care if you give the scumteam an ungated strongman plus an ungated roleblocker. There's no way they can realistically be expected to overcome all of

that

. I'll need some time to figure out what makes the most sense.

[XIII Roxas]

I can't be here tonight but I'll be here tomorrow.

[XIII Roxas]

Apologies for taking so long. Life's been hella busy but I'm here now, and reading.

[XIII Roxas]

Roxas: I don't give a shit what your read is here anymore. If only for KH you owe me this vote.

To be honest I know Vexen flipped scum but had I been around I would have declined to vote there. You're town but if I didn't have Vexen's scumflip in front of me I'd be reading everything Vexen wrote as town, so. You right, me wrong, but ultimately irrelevant given I wasn't even around so I couldn't have switched even were I inclined to have done so.

[XIII Roxas]

@Roxas, did you townread Demyx 1.0?

I didn't have their identity locked down.

I still don't.

I really fucking should since I really fucking should know who they were.
But I don't. All I have is guesses. And those guesses don't give me Demyx's alignment. Even if I WERE able to pin down Demyx's identity, I couldn't pin down Demyx's alignment. Demyx's posts were just. Not something I was able to accurately get locked down. Not as town, not as scum, not as identity, not as both identity and alignment (meta), nothing.

But the new Demyx is scum regardless of his alignment and yet is probably just flat-out scum period.
I'm reading the game, and I'll need to read in particular Demyx/Vexen stuff but. Demyx looks like scum.

[XIII Roxas]

Btw in case it wasn't clear Xigbar is never scum this game.
Luxord is not far behind.

From there I'm still in need of sorting stuff. (And honestly I think that I'm losing my ability to play mafia at the moment. I picked a shitty time to try and catch up, I'm already exhausted from other stuff today but I don't really have a choice, I'm not in the game right now and I need to be in the game right now especially if I want to earn that bulletproof.)

[XIII Roxas]

Vexen wagon is shit

VOTE: Demyx.

[XIII Roxas]

I am wondering how I am only one picking up on scum Demyx here.
Like it seems clear he is sheeping/coasting scum

[XIII Roxas]

I was hoping that Roxas would show up to comment on Demyx 1.0.

If you know who I am then you know exactly why I wasn't around. Or you can easily look into the circumstances behind my absence. (I technically was around on-site at the time but I was mostly doing so to make declarations of me...not being able to be around. And you can easily verify this.)

[XIII Roxas]

Also, Marluxia is town.

I still think this, too.

[XIII Roxas]

Because I misread my role PM as town presumably.

Funny, I misread mine as scum

[XIII Roxas]

Vote: Marluxia

Would also gladly flashwagon Lexaeus

[XIII Roxas]

Anyone who gets swayed by xig's case on vex should immediately check their d1 case on larx and how they were instrumental in lynching larx.

[XIII Roxas]

I think I understand who the person behind Saix is and everything is starting to make a lot more sense. That's 100% a town slot, if I'm right.

Do tell. As much as you are able to given the alt/main/meta restrictions of course.

[XIII Roxas]

I think u and Vexen are terrible lynches. I'd rather have marluxia, Roxas, Xaldin or Saix

Half of these are not like the other half.

[XIII Roxas]

Whoops got distracted by something. Back, will see if I can get caught up tonight though with the distraction eating up time not sure I can.

[XIII Roxas]

Have you seen me do VCA? I hate how most people do it too.

You wouldn't hate my VCA if I actually had the capacity to do it right now. I'm still trying to get to that point though.

[XIII Roxas]

Vote: Marluxia

You can have your lynch without me.

This looks pretty town btw.

[XIII Roxas]

I don't think Demyx/Vexen are likely scumbuds at all

Gonna need this explained.

[XIII Roxas]

Don't like how they've been completely gone and avoiding taking a stance here. Hurts my townread. Afaik they haven't been absentee sitewide unless Roxas isn't actually who they pretend to be

I did post on-site! I posted explaining why I wasn't going to be posting on-site! Were I around then I most definitely would have taken a stance...a stance wrong, in direct opposition to yours. But a stance all the same.

[XIII Roxas]

Sure. You're refusing to push scum Vexen, attempting to derail to a quicklynch on Marluxia which is a weak slot but objectively town, and completely ignoring and refusing to engage with my reads in order to avoid scum dying today.

(^If you're not already voting Demyx you should be btw.)

[XIII Roxas]

Seriously just kill me tonight because I'm a cop and I don't want to play anymore

Btw while I sincerely doubt this is a serious cop claim, I think the mindset behind it is town because drawing a block and/or kill by claiming cop when you just want out of the game (and I know for a fact Zexion does) reads as really town to me.

[XIII Roxas]

Does it make sense that Lexaeus was the kill target?

Has to be.

Axel triggered a nightskip.

That means that Lexaeus didn't bodyguard N1.
Thus, Lexaeus was upgraded from bodyguard to doctor.

Am I wrong?

[XIII Roxas]

So I'm not sure what exactly Demyx was doing but I read it as scum testing to see if my claim was legitimate.

Most likely, yes.

[XIII Roxas]

Post restriction?

Honestly wouldn't put it past an apathetic Zexion faking one in order to try and maintain some level of interest in the game (see below), but it doesn't matter. If it's fake I don't care; if it's real, then it's real. Either way let Zexion do their thing.

As for the mindset I have behind thinking it could be fake and yet me not caring about it being fake. Basically. It boils down to a combination of "I don't give a fuck" (as they posted so eloquently in a gif), and also just. A feeling of being wrong. Of being detached from everything. Of not caring. Of everything going wrong, and, yes, of giving up...but doing so not as scum and rather, as town. As town, who just has lost all desire to keep going.

It's a bit hard to describe. But basically. A town Zexion absolutely does this. It's a form of desperation-but-not-really. Of fighting the urge to replace out, of not really wanting to be in but not really wanting to bail. And yes to some extent this would be true regardless of Zexion's alignment given Zexion's overall disinterest in mafia right now...but the WAY it was done. Along with the STRENGTH in which it is done. Just has me thinking that this is Zexion as town.

[XIII Roxas]

Explain why is Xig not a scum?

Xig isn't scum because while scum CAN do what they did yesterday jesus fuck no they're never GOING to do what Xig did yesterday. Xigbar doesn't bus just for the lulz. Xigbar had no need to bus Vexen. Xigbar had LITERALLY EVERY CHANCE POSSIBLE to get EVERY LYNCH OUTSIDE OF VEXEN/XIGBAR. He could have lynched Axel. He could have lynched Marlexia. He could have lynched Demyx. He could have lynched Saix. Among others. It's within his scum capacity to lynch any of those and even if one would be a third scum the others would not. He instead went for Vexen. Xigbar never busses, forces a 1v1, in this way as scum.

Explain why you is not a scum?

[XIII Roxas]

Demyx is weird.
Axel is flaky, but I don't want to lynch him before Xig.
Luxord could be scum.
Rox, no clue. Flaky fellow.

These reads are baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
(Especially the Demyx one)

[XIII Roxas]

No one suspects me.

What am I, a heartless?

[XIII Roxas]

As far as I'm concerned, the alternative to lynching you now is for you to use your vig shot as directed by town tonight.

Frankly I don't think Saix has a vig but even if Saix did I wouldn't trust Saix to use it on scum.

[XIII Roxas]

Which basically means Demyx/Zexion can't be the scumteam.

Zexion's ton, Demyx isn't. There ya go.

And the only way Marluxia could be the scum who made the nightkill is if they're ninja. I don't really know what to make of that.

Marluxia's town, silly.

[XIII Roxas]

So, it's confirmed now who Xig is. Lynch them immediately. That slot is capable of all sort of manipulation and much more.

Question: are you at all familiar with the abbreviation AtF?

Because you certainly know what it stands for.

[XIII Roxas]

It's possible Lex was the kill target, himself, though it's hard for me to picture that given how things went after the replacement.

Could the scumteam be comprised of someone who kills off of role-related reasons rather than play-based ones?

I mean I don't know the identities of most players here and even if I did I'd suspect I wouldn't know them well enough to know who fits into what category (save for knowing both Xigbar and Zexion most decidedly do not fit into it), but it's possible.

[XIII Roxas]

@Xigbar, Zexion, Roxas:

Do you agree Zaix should use their vig shot tonight? If so, we should be talking about both who to lynch and who to vig today. If not, then please tell me why not. We're on evens and their role is the fix for the global roleblock.

Absolutely if directed by the town. (And lynched if going solo/not shooting.) In which case, I'd say to lynch Demyx or if not vig Demyx.

The other of the two I'm not exactly sure who I'd name (maybe Xaldin?). I can tell you players who AREN'T scum. (You obv, Xigbar, Luxord, Zexion, Marluxia for a start.) I can tell you how all kinds of Demyx and Saix are. I can't really tell you who could be scum outside of those two though.

[XIII Roxas]

I hope they open this PT at the end. Zexion is going crazy.

Zexion moves to conftown for this alone.

Let me tell you something about Zexion. Batshit crazy/insane freaking out over everything Zexion is a town Zexion. And more specifically, they never bring this to the main thread. Ever. But in a PT? They go nuts. And this is not something they do as scum as far as I'm aware.

[XIII Roxas]

Getting less okay with Roxas's lack of presence in the game. They need to get back in here.

Get used to it. I'm busy when I'm busy. Me being busy can be easily verified too. Not by being a lazy fuck and just going "Oh Roxas posted on site that must mean Roxas is around". But by taking even a cursory glance at the nature of what I'm posting which mostly was "I owe you more than this and I apologize but I'm not able to give you more yet". Until I then do.

[XIII Roxas]

Stupid.

Why does everyone insist it's just stupid rather than being just fucking scum?

[XIII Roxas]

Next time, be inclined to do so.

Well if you're still down for lynching Demyx I most definitely am inclined there.

[XIII Roxas]

it's based on too many assumptions.

Okay.

Tell me.

How does Xigbar as scum.
Not fucking rely on a shitload of assumptions?

[XIII Roxas]

It only upgraded if there was an opportunity to use it I believe.

Did Lexaeus say that themselves? If they did I'd believe them since they were the one with the role.

But I think it makes more sense for it to have been upgraded.

[XIII Roxas]

Okay so I can probably share this without compromising my anonymity but right now at the moment I am having difficulties doing ANYTHING in mafia games right now, so I'm not in the mindset where I can give content right now. I can't promise I'll be able to give content tomorrow, but I can promise it within the next 96 hours. Probably within 2 days honestly but I want to give a little extra wiggle room to overcome my difficulties right now + deal with any rl issues which crop up.

[XIII Roxas]

HEAL: Xemnas HEAL: Xemnas HEAL: Xemnas
HEAL: Roxas HEAL: Roxas HEAL: Roxas
HEAL: Xigbar HEAL: Xigbar HEAL: Xigbar
HEAL: Xaldin
HEAL: Marluxia
HEAL: Luxord HURT: Luxord
HEAL: Saïx HURT: Saïx
HURT: Axel
HURT: Demyx HURT: Demyx HURT: Demyx

Switch Xaldin and Axel, promote Luxord to Marluxia, then switch Saix with Xaldin, and this is pretty much where I'd be.

[XIII Roxas]

I think Demyx/Axel is more likely than Demyx/Saix but uhh

I think Demyx/Xaldin is more likely than Demyx/Axel.

Axel just feels town to me.
I don't really have much of a reason for why. But the idea of him being scum just feels wrong. Admittedly, *I* could be the one wrong here. But if the scumteam's not Demyx-Saix, my first thought would be Demyx-Xaldin, not Demyx-Axel.

[XIII Roxas]

Saïx [5] - Lexaeus,

Vexen, Axel, Demyx

, Zexion

While the potential for an all-scum-bloc voting is there, it is incredibly unlikely and this is in fact some reasonably strong evidence suggesting Axel wouldn't be scum. (Well, at least not with Demyx. But probably not scum anyway.)

I don't know who Vexen is but someone who claims to know who Vexen is can answer this: be honest, is Vexen a player who could bus, if he deemed it advantageous to do so? Because I got the very distinct impression the answer is yes, he would. The type of "logical, calculated player who makes long-term plans involving strategic manipulation of circumstances". This very trait is what makes an all-scum-bloc possible, sure, but it is that very same trait which also enables it to be bussing.

In the votecount that came from, the alternative wagons were Xigbar (listed twice on the votecount so three votes total) and Demyx (two votes total). Scum had no reason to put all their eggs in one basket. Vexen was under no danger. Xigbar's town but even if he weren't then him being him three votes is nothing so no real danger there. Luxord is town but even if he weren't then he was under no danger.

Scum simply have no reason to pile onto Saix like that.

In contrast, if we assume two scum on Saix and one scum on Xigbar, this makes a lot more sense. The votes from Demyx and Vexen are perfectly placed for towncred. Which is why I'd heavily favor Saix as scum over Axel.

[XIII Roxas]

Xigbar, Luxord, Saix, and probably Roxas as much as I hate it are probably town. scum are in Xaldin, Marlexia, and Zexion

What about Axel?

Legit would laugh if a scum-Demyx did in fact forget his scumbuddy, but I'd be more inclined to think that if the exclusion of Axel was intentional it'd be to frame that as a mislynch.

[XIII Roxas]

Question: Do we think that Xaldin and Axel are both scum? Because I sort of don't.

Nor I. Of them, Xaldin is by far the closer to scum for me (Xaldin's mostly a nullread; Axel's mostly a weaker-townread-but-still-TOWNread), but again. I'm not looking for scum in there until I see one of Demyx/Saix flip town...which I seriously doubt I'll actually see.

Because I legit just think it's Demyx/Saix. Some games just really are that easy. (Well I'd say Vexen wasn't easy, but that's actually kinda my point. With Vexen gone. The hardest part of identifying the scumteam is also gone. In short, scum would be in the mode of mostly...well. What I'd expect is what I've seen from Demyx/Saix in that it's largely shit. I probably need to explain this better at some point.)

[XIII Roxas]

Xaldin/Saix loltunneling me?

Not impossible, and would be what I'd assume if Demyx were town. But that'd require Demyx actually being town, so.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Saix

I'll move my vote here if this is the dominant wagon when I'm caught up. (Well assuming it's not a hammer that is. I've got incentive to lynch scum more than any other town player of course, but I'd rather not cut discussion off prematurely if there's a need for it.)

[XIII Roxas]

Not feeling this wagon guys

This is a ringing endorsement for the Saix lynch.

[XIII Roxas]

I think everyone should reread xig's day 1, especially their role in lynching larx.

It was town at the time, it's still town now, it's not the only fucking thing Xigbar has done this game, and even were it I sure as fuck wouldn't lynch him for it. So no. Try again.

[XIII Roxas]

Saix has some ridiculous posts and I am pretty sure he is lying about claim. Hmmmmmmmm

(This is, of course. Followed by no Saix vote.)

[XIII Roxas]

I want to sleep on this one more time and I want to see a votecount.

(I do have to admit tho that Axel's current content kinda sucks. It's gone downhill from what it was before. Don't think that's enough in of itself to condemn him though, especially since there's any myriad of reasons for degradation of play.)

[XIII Roxas]

I will say that the frustration about Zexion feels townier than it would otherwise because Axel hasn't even remotely tried to use Zexion's inability to communicate to paint them as scummy. Really wouldn't be hard to try and take advantage of that. Instead he's coming across as someone demotivated and doesn't know who scum is. That's my lame gut hipshot take on him atm.

I actually really think this is a good description for Axel, honestly. It's not exactly as ironclad as other townreads, sure, yeah. But I think this holds quite a lot of merit, in that Axel just...doesn't come across as scum.

[XIII Roxas]

So, Lux, this is an open challenge to you to produce some evidence backing your statement.

Like. Lol. How is this not lynched yet? This isn't a real thing someone says.

Well because we've been debating which scum to lynch in Demyx/Saix rather than just lynching one. For yesterday, there was a fight to get Vexen lynched. For D1, nobody was really that interested in lynching Saix and just insisted he was town for ~reasons~. That still completely and totally mystify me because just on a fundamental level I don't get it.

Not a single person calling Saix town that I can recall has given actual game content reasons for Saix being town. They've given role-based claims, insisting "but Saix's role must be town!" (ignoring the MYRIAD of flaws in that logic); they've given player-based-claims insisting "But if Saix is this person, then Saix could be town!", yet I just. I don't see it. On any level. Whatsoever.

[XIII Roxas]

You're right that Xigbar arrowgun power seems excessive with Saix's - my personal assumption is that it doesn't work on kills and Xigbar is lying as a disincentive for someone to shoot him, but if Saix flipped town, I wouldn't powerlynch Xigbar. Would you?

(Btw as if there were any need to doubt it, posts like these are rather useful in reinforcing just how town Marluxia is.)

[XIII Roxas]

For the record, ur both Town so shut the hell up with ur paranoia over it

This statement is accurate! Xigbar and Luxord are indeed both town.

This statement is actually scummy as fuck! You could not get a more blatantly-obvious example of a scum player intervening in a fight they know to be TvT.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Axel
I want to lynch scum.

So do I! But of all the scum candidates, Axel is the least-likely. The largest longshot. The one most likely to be a mislynch. I'd strongly advise against it.

[XIII Roxas]

You should think of replacing out coz your slot is essentially vacant.

Proof you don't know who I am!

[XIII Roxas]

I am surprised there are still people scumread xigbar(other than saix at least who is death tunnelig)

(Just saying tho. This kind of lackluster posting is all kinds of skeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch.)

[XIII Roxas]

Axel lynch gives me so much information about the gamestate that can't be gotten otherwise.

Do tell.

I can get an Axel scumflip giving you bundleloads of info. Any slot's scumflip at this stage would, frankly. The second scum goes down, the third inevitably follows. So I don't really need that explained. (Well it'd still be nice to do anyway but I don't strictly speaking

need

it because I can at least guess.)

But I don't see what an Axel townflip gives us. It tells us Axel's town. It...really doesn't tell me anything else so I need this laid out for me.

[XIII Roxas]

Btw since it is not said nearly often enough Xigbar is in fact town. And as it turns out he already did in fact explain the Axel-flips-town scenario's basics, but I'd personally prefer if the idea were fleshed out more. Axel-as-scum requires no explanation; it's largely self-evident what that gives us.
Axel-as-town is a little more hazy for me even with the guidelines Xigbar gave.

It's interesting how large the disconnect between what's good for you and what feels good to do is.

(If you're wondering why the fuck it took me so long to get to this thread btw. This sentence is actually an absolutely

perfect

summation of why. What's good for me to do is to stay caught up, be actively engaged, to be influencing the game and going back and forth with players so that we can collaborate and in theory, narrow the scum pool down. What feels good for me to do is to just not do anything mafia-related and waste time on whatever random non-mafia game fancies my interest at the time.)

[XIII Roxas]

I think Vexen 2.0 would bus if he thought bussing were strategically advantageous, but I don't think it would be his first inclination unless a partner was seriously screwing up.

Counterargument.

[XIII Roxas]

There is a non-zero chance of Roxas/Axel or something similar

Objectively speaking, sure. Not gonna even bother trying to say otherwise. I've got no real evidence suggesting otherwise. To the contrary, I've been defending Axel the whole game and that WOULD be my scum MO, so. I can't really defend against the accusation since I of all people know exactly how it looks.

I can ask, however, for you to only cross that bridge if we come to it. I am town. Axel is PROBABLY town. Demyx is almost definitely scum. Saix has a very very very VERY high probability of being scum. And deadline is looming nearish. Now is not the time to go pursuing paranoia. If on future days you still hold the suspicion, sure. Revisit it. But right now we have scum RIGHT in our grasps. Don't fucking let them go.

[XIII Roxas]

So we have a clearer picture that we want to lynch people like you, Demyx, Saix.

Technically

speaking, I didn't ACTUALLY fight the Vexen lynch at all!
...By virtue of me not being around to fight/push any lynch!

(Butyeah had I been around I actually would have fought against the Vexen lynch so yes I do in fact belong in that category and though I really wouldn't like it and think we have much better options, prior to lylo I would in fact be willing to eat the mislynch if I was confident it'd help nail the scum. Shouldn't be necessary, though, since I don't bus and Demyx/Saix will be flipping scum, soooooooooooo...)

[XIII Roxas]

Can't give content tonight but will make this game my first priority tomorrow.

[XIII Roxas]

Are you caught up?

Well I

was

, but now I'm behind again, so.

[XIII Roxas]

I think Demyx also damns Marluxia due to voting track record.

This doesn't make sense. Please put more effort into faking your cases.

You're right - bad wording.

Marluxia

also damns

Demyx

due to voting track record.

Btw I'd like to once more point out it's stuff like this which makes me think Axel isn't scum. I can't quite articulate the why, but this is just another thing I think is...well, town.

[XIII Roxas]

I think that Demyx lynch is sorta mandatory because he's refusing to play the game in an yreal sense so let's get on with it.

So you want me to put in effort into a game where you decided to lynch me because I disagreed with you yesterday but now it's mandatory cause I'm not playing. Wow. So all I have to do is put in effort and you won't lynch? Fuck no. And ur going to lynch me any case or effort I put forward, I just won't do it because I know it's wasted effort. I have more productive shit to do than put minutes or hours into formulating cases on people I am scumreading when it won't do anything. So stop pretending ur lynching me because I am not putting in effort go back to the whole I am discrediting you nonsense because at least while that's bs, it's more true to your lynch reasoning stupidity than me not caring about this game to put forth effort.

Similarly so, this is the inverse. It's a scumpost but I can't really articulate any concrete reasoning why it is.

[XIII Roxas]

Have lost all interest in this game.

Mod, replace me.

[XIII Roxas]

If saix/demyx is the scumteam then that's a scumbag replace out.

My thoughts exactly.

[XIII Roxas]

I honestly have no fucking clue who to lynch now.

Why Demyx of course. The wagon on him's still there, the reasons he's scum still apply, and the game's basically POEd down to him and a very, very small pool of others. (Demyx/Saix/Xaldin. Others add Axel even though I exclude him.) He's scum...and even if he isn't. Even if, in some bizzarro world he's town...his lynch STILL gives us a bundleload of information, in that we know EXACTLY where to go. If he's scum, he's not only a scum lynch, but also a scum lynch which further gives us an idea of where the final scum is. If he's town, we still benefit because we get to know who the final scum would be. But that doesn't really matter much, because he's just. scum.

If Saix replaces in and guarantees to take a shot tonight I almost might prefer no lynching.

I hope someone explained to you the myriad of reasons why this is a hilariously bad idea such that I don't have to spend the time ranting about mafia theory to you and why we should never ever ever be no-lynching today and literally any non-Xemnas lynch would be better. (Short version: the numerous number of ways Saix wouldn't get a shot off up to and including Saix making the whole thing up; us being on evens + a successful shot going off + the nightkill = we still are on evens whereas us lynching + a successful shot going off + the nightkill = we're now on odds.)

[XIII Roxas]

What's the penalty for breaking your post restriction?

Hopefully getting lynched?

If there were any doubts Zexion was town btw, these should settle them. I know Zexion and I know that as scum they still feel at least some obligation to win. They don't bus, and they discourage scumbuddies from bussing. The latter can be broken if Zexion determines that their own lynch will drive their team to victory...but here, I can't see any scumteam where that'd be the case. The opposite, Zexion being lynched would be handing victory to the town.

So, I really really really don't think this is a scum-Zexion. There was no need for this as a gambit, AtE-insert-buzzwords-of-your-choice-here-ploy, either, because Zexion was under no threat of being lynched. None. Zero. Nadda. The only person under pressure right now who Zexion benefits by distracting us from is Demyx...in which case Demyx would be scum anyway so we fucking lynch Demyx first and if after he flips scum you still want to approach the angle of this being a scum ploy then I'll run through the scenarios but just really it's not. It is town.

[XIII Roxas]

I think that adding in a watcher in addition to a night skipper in addition to the evolving protective role is strangely skewed balance wise. I find the timing of his claim weird - the self-vote came at a time when he was supposedly resigned to die, but I don't think suddenly deciding to claim is consistent with that.

I mean I didn't quote Luxord's Demyx case even though obviously I agree with it but I really felt like quoting this and stating my strong agreement with it as well.

[XIII Roxas]

I may not have read the game but it seems to me that scum rarely use getting votes on themselves as a strategy

[XIII Roxas]

In other news I was mulling over Xig's role in bed this morning (because what else does one do when they wake up) and it occurred to me that Vexen's role and Xig's role being scum would make 2/3rds of the scumteam untargettable. I feel like that'd be kind of overkill and ruins the whole point of a role-madness game if so. Holding on to that might be easier for me than holding onto "Xig wouldn't bus there" because while I do still feel like that's the case, there's obviously problems with that.

I mean.
That kinda went without saying.
But since I value play over roles, I insist on the latter. There are times and ways Xigbar would bus. They are absolutely NOTHING like what Xigbar did this game. He is town. No matter what way you approach it, good-as-Xemnas-levels of conftown.

[XIII Roxas]

Maybe I should be playing a little close to the vest if I'm shooting tonight. Wouldn't surprise me if there was a scum power to get around my bomb ability, like a BP or doc.

[XIII Roxas]

Between my role and some of the others I have seen claimed, it seems as though scum must have powerful roles as well. Here's a thought, what if Xaldin's role is just a scum role.

Nothing in Saix 2.0's posting catchup has been good. The opposite, it's highlights like this which illustrate exactly why I think Saix is scum.

[XIII Roxas]

Made it to page 50. Done for a while. I have some thoughts, though you shouldn't expect a wall at all, and I'm not sure I should share them today. I plan on vigging someone with an X in their name.

[XIII Roxas]

I will say that Demyx is currently my second strongest townread so I'm not keen on this wagon.

[XIII Roxas]

My desire to play this game is being seriously drained.

To be honest. While this isn't the reason I've been coming in, then leaving, then returning (that would be more life stuff) mostly by virtue of prods prompting me to come back. It's probably a serious contributor to it. I'm struggling to maintain my mafiascum presence. This is obvious to anyone who actually knows who I am.

And, I'm not talking about "knows the scummer", though that is a requirement for knowing who I am. I mean. It is pretty self-evident to those who know who I am. That I am having trouble. This is not the only place where I'm largely prod-dodging. It's true enough that I post plenty outside of the game forums...but people who pay attention to the volume and timing should be realizing even there I'm doing so less often, and in shorter bursts, and with less energy, and altogether am just having a difficult time sticking around.

I have a stubborn sense of pride preventing me from ever willingly replacing out. I /inned to play the game and I would never /out unless I was absolutely forced to. (By which, I mean: being force-replaced for something not my fault, some real life emergency which completely and totally removes my ability to play altogether not temporarily but long-term.) ESPECIALLY since of my ego, in that this being an alt-game. I invoked my altplay rules even though I put no effort to hide my identity (which I normally would on an alt): never give something which would unambiguously give away my identity. And a mass-replace-out of my games would do exactly that. If I replaced out of all my games in a short timeframe it would become obvious who I am and I don't want to ever let that happen. (Incidentally this is also the reason I tend to limit my alt-games even when I don't limit my games on my main.)

Basically, my heart's really not into mafia right now...but I'll still see it through. I hold the obligation to do so.

[XIII Roxas]

Is almost everyoen a new person at this point?

This is absolutely who we vig btw.

Like.

I think Saix is scum.
But in a world where Saix is a vig.
Not shooting Xaldin is a scumclaim.

[XIII Roxas]

It also likely means that scum feel fine about looking town in a mass claim, so let's not give too much credit for town-looking roles thanks.

If someone targets me at night, they will be killed automatically. I can kill someone at night, but if I choose to do so, I will forfeit the first ability. So, in effect, I have only one functional power but been given the option to choose out of the two. Lynching is the only likely way I will be shown the door, unless the scum can afford to reduce by 1. I can go to the endgame if people believe me.

[XIII Roxas]

The second half of my role is a conditional bulletproof.

I knew it was going to be bulletproof.

Well no fucking duh. I said my role had ties to Godfather. Back in the day, Godfather wasn't universally investigation-immune; some Godfathers were instead...
...Bulletproof.

I said Zero to Hero, which is a song from Hercules. Hercules, in the last Heartless game, was a conditional-bulletproof. (Who, mind you, also had a day-power to go alongside it.) I outright demanded to be investigated, because bulletproof conftown = game-winning combination. I specified that half my role gave me towncred (my doublevoter), but the other half made me really want to be investigated. There's only so many roles which that could be.

I have been mislynched as a bulletproof before (albeit, the inverse of mine in that I was voteless rather than a doublevoter), in an infamous game no less which I still carry many bitter, sour memories of. (As a hydra if you are curious, but 95% of our posting was me.) I said that my role was probably one of the stronger roles in the game. And I'm a doublevoting bulletproof. (Well conditional, butstill.) There couldn't be any role I COULD be other than bulletproof.

[XIII Roxas]

So ATM I'm not vigging Xig, Lux or Dem. Everyone else is still on the table pending the rest of my read and the rest of this Day.

[XIII Roxas]

Its really nice having a sane Saix now. Please be town.

I'll believe it when I see Saix's corpse and not a moment sooner.

[XIII Roxas]

I await the detailed explanation why this is town behavior.

It isn't! It also isn't scum behavior because lurking is detrimental to my wincon. As scum I might work best in the shadows, but I still require a strong stage presence to do so. My scumgame can be summed up as essentially: "Is very much actively in the game, but is in the game in such a way that people don't pay much attention until it's too late". I'm not active in the game right now and that's detrimental regardless of my wincon. I'd maybe go so far as to say it's more detrimental to a scum-me than a town-me, because a town-me isn't often the one driving the game towards victory; a town me tends to help wins in subtler ways if I help at all. So me not being around as town doesn't really hurt that much. Me not being around as scum DOES hurt, because me not being around means I'm not driving the game which means I'm not the one really influencing events.

I'm fucking not here because I'm fucking not here. Not because it's playing to my wincon. Because I'm just not really in the game. If you want any real description for why that'd be town behavior the closest you're gonna get is that I WOULD be in the game as scum, but even saying that is a stretch since I've got absolutely no guarantee of the sort. I'm not in the game. I'm doing the best I can do to still be in the game. If that's not good enough, then tough. I'm not replacing out. Not even when I'm like this.

[XIII Roxas]

VOTE: Xaldin

I'll vote here, but it's not my preferred option for a few reasons:
-I think Saix is scum.
-If Saix is telling the truth about the vig, there's no guarantee Saix is town.
-Even if you take it as gospel that Saix proving the vig is town, and even if the shot goes through...Saix has made it quite clear he won't shoot Demyx. As such, anyone Saix shoots other than possibly Xaldin would be town.
-Saix has made it clear he is willing to vig Xaldin.
-Xaldin could indeed be scum.
-Thus, Saix shooting Xaldin is a good thing.
-But we don't want to lynch Xaldin because if we lynch Xaldin, then who does Saix shoot? Not scum, I guarantee you that. Probably not even someone we want shot.

I'm probably not explaining my points well enough. But basically. There's an optimal order of operations. Xaldin does need to die. I absolutely agree with you 100% there. But if Xaldin is our lynch, then Saix either doesn't vig someone successfully, OR if Saix by some miracle does shoot correctly...we'll have ourselves two dead town. (One by vig, one by scum nightkill.) This is because by lynching Xaldin, we by default aren't leashing the vig kill. We give Saix free reign on who to kill and that's the last thing we want to do.

In contrast, if we lynch Demyx, then Saix can shoot Xaldin and ONLY Xaldin. Any other shot is a scumclaim.

I wish I could word this better.

[XIII Roxas]

Lolz. I don't even want to try to engage with that giant pile of spending 1000 words restating your opinions without offering a solitary actual point to back up a lick of it.

Ironic, given:

I'm going to write a little now because I feel like it. I have just finished page 96. The order is arbitrary (actually, it's the readlist I made on page 50ish, but whatever).

Zexion is someone I townread for most of the game. I liked his ATE stuff, sue me, and I saw him as the more likely town in the Xig/Zex pair-anoia thing they were doing for like the first half of the game. His interaction with the Vexen wagon sucked, however, and his Day 3 play up to 96 feels like giving up and/or just all around trash. I don't get it, but I'm coming down to an uncertain take here.

Demyx 1.0 was a townread, all the stronger for how he and Vexen went at it. Frankly I no longer recall why at this point, but I remember thinking he wouldn't be scum due to Vexen's scum flip. His successor totally flipping that stance really doesn't matter to me at all, nor does his decision to play like a shitlord. I am glad he's being replaced, hopefully the new person can actually get their shit together and go back to being town.

Xigbar was a vaguely town read for me for a lot of the game, though I had paranoia about it sometimes. After yesterday, I have no interest in lynching there right now. His scrambling on Day 1 felt town, and I dug things like his admission he wasonly 90% confident after Vexen was hammered. I'm not clearing this slot forever by any means, but it's likely town.

I loved Luxord 1.0 and townread him strongly. 2.0 sucked. 3.0 I'm pretty sure I have an identity on, and I don't have much confidence in my ability to read that person but I think they've been sounding town. That combined with my 1.0 read makes me feel good about town-binning them for now.

Marluxia basically pops into existence to make a few vaguely town sounding posts every so often and then fade back into the background. They're possibly someone the game needs to be cured of at some point. Have no confidence here.

Axel has a townish role but I won't discount it possibly being from scum. Most of his posting is lame and I've agreed with scumreads on him at times but I've had some pause regarding his interaction with the Vexen wagon and whatever the fuck is happening with him and Zexion now. I know I had more to say here that I'm just forgetting...

Xaldin's posts are scumalicious and do nothing. He used his role in a protown manner, but that's about all he has going for him.

I liked Roxas at the start of the game with asking to be investigated and such. Felt like something a BP with a big ego might think. However, I've distrusted this more and more with time. I haven't seen any particular reason to discount this slot as a Vexen buddy. I don't have a case or anything, I just don't see much town posting happening here, and I'm wary that they're a scum BP that exists because of my role. Have hated their Demyx stuff today. If we want to play "too many protectives," this is where the music stops.

I think I forgot more about this game between starting and ending this post than my predecessor ever knew.