A Mid-Scummer Night's Dream - D.S. al Fine

[Floodgates]

there were like 15 independant clauses in that paragraph

can we please

space

That post was addressed to Tammy and consisted of me pouring out thoughts so I didn't bother to make it readable for anyone.

[Cephrir]

guys we really have to nightkill maria stat shes onto me

no i did not mean to post this in a scum thread

[Floodgates]

Don't worry Cephrir you're one of my weaker scumreads so I'm sure by the time we've lynched your buds and a townie or two you'll have nightkilled my slot and her slot and won't have to worry anymore.

[MariaR]

guys we really have to nightkill maria stat shes onto me

no i did not mean to post this in a scum thread

I'm the best I know~ ty don't forget I'm a 5 shot PGO though

[Cephrir]

Don't worry Cephrir you're one of my weaker scumreads so I'm sure by the time we've lynched your buds and a townie or two you'll have nightkilled my slot and her slot and won't have to worry anymore.

phew

[Floodgates]

Tammy are you around?

I think the crux of what I'd like you to understand is that,

1) I think you misunderstood my lovehearts in that I was just happy that we were posting together - you perceived that as me cooing Prism and agreeing with / encouraging her read on you when that wasn't the case, there was a lot of content there and you were a minor part of it.
2) I do fully support Prism being open with her scumread on you regardless of my read, I don't think it's fair to say that she's not allowed to scumhunt you just because she's in a nancy hydra.
3) I don't have nearly as good an understanding of your meta as I do Nacho's but I do know that scum Imperium will have very little direction in terms of pushes as controlled by Tammy and so far I haven't felt that you've really pushed anyone - the fact that this absence is understandable from you so far isn't dampened when I absolutely have a growing respect for your scumgame and don't want to give you an easy townread just because I feel your tone / questioning is outside what I understand to be your scumrange.

Does that make sense to you? Do you feel that I've heard your concerns?

Yes I am over my paranoia about your slot already and Prism thinks you're more likely town than what she thought before and I know that she'll come around to townreading you eventually but I also think that it's important that you address her concerns and not ignore her; I'm not happy for you to ignore the other head of my hydra and treat her read on you as unfair because I don't think that it is. Prism is her own person and has her own way; I can't stifle that while respecting her opinion as my hydra partner.

[Nosferatu]

I'd like to hear what you think about Nos' content recently because I think that she's really really town right now and I hope that you'll be able to join me in that read because it's a read I feel good about even if it's entirely based on meta.

Because based on my admittedly minimal experience and meta hearsay with him this is likely past his scum range already

this is probably the best meta read anyone's ever had on me

[Floodgates]

It's important to my ego that you note that 730 predates 743 but it's also relevant in terms of my read on Cephrir because it felt a little bit like he was sheeping me there on a contrarian stance.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Regfan I hated 764 as well; I disagree that that's never W/W basically because of what hebichan's said about LLD's bussing meta - you don't think that's relevant here? I think having seen the full trajectory of that that if one of them is town it's probably LLD but my read on both slots is pretty squarely below null. Anyway my mind is frazzled so.

It would be way more overblown if that was a cross-bus.
Taking into account both LLD's methods and drealmerz's.
They wouldn't half ass that interaction, especially d7's end of it.

[Floodgates]

Interesting; I didn't see it as half-assed at all at the time but I can see what you mean there.

[drealmerz7]

They wouldn't half ass that interaction, especially d7's end of it.

it's nice to be known

huh, reminds me, I don't think scumchat from In Memory ever got released

[Regfan]

Still part way through reading up but Dreamls if you're around can you explain the following to me because I'm reading them as a heavy contradiction.

desp is TRing me? ya that is shady af

I can actually believe it (and wanted to see what he said about his TR on me before commenting more so I could get a better read on his response / not influence it) but he can also easiliy be scum and have done the same thing, so it's NAI and more data required

[Regfan]

Nos's reaction towards Desperados replace in of "Sorry you replaced into a scum slot" -> "Wait I was thinking Varsoon was scum too" when Desperado voted him -> "Does this mean Varsoon is town, ugh" eventually in Post 574 weakens my scum read there, it's a progression I think is super understandable for town and one that scum often don't think to go through and fake.

Bakus Post 575 where he continues to defend the Desperado slot continues to strengthen my scum read there, the reasoning behind it being "those town reads draw attention and scum wouldn't do it!" is just...not a town way to approach getting a read at all, it really reads like scum just frozen and unsure what to do so they're just doubling down on their prior stance and trying to fabricate whatever reasoning they can to add to it.

Like that both NMS's scum reads in Post 644 match mine at the moment.

Think the Brian & Imperium interaction was mostly just a silly misunderstanding.

I..don't like Varsoons move to Nos in Post 668, find the timing and reasoning behind it superlacklustre (Same goes in Post 697) and it being how he moves off Desperado without really commenting on him again there feels like the same thing he did with me earlier and think it's super scum motivated; neither move was a case of "I no longer think X/Y is mafia due to Z" or "I'm questioning my read on X and feel better about Y" or anything like that mentioned in it which allows him to leave as many potential openings as possible. I've not seen his play since I've replaced in as him attempting to actually analyse or sort anyones alignments.

@NMS -

Would like you to talk with me about Varsoon a little, I had a strong town read on him earlier but it's effectively gone; you seem to still have a strongish town read on him, can you run me through that read a little more mostly talking about his recent posts because I've got lots of concerns with them.

[drealmerz7]

Still part way through reading up but Dreamls if you're around can you explain the following to me because I'm reading them as a heavy contradiction.

desp is TRing me? ya that is shady af

I can actually believe it (and wanted to see what he said about his TR on me before commenting more so I could get a better read on his response / not influence it) but he can also easiliy be scum and have done the same thing, so it's NAI and more data required

well at first I was going on the hearsay of him saying he actually TR me (instead of townvibes), just to make that clear

to address your concern when I made the first post I made it with an awareness that desp could come make a follow-up post that would ease the "shady af" feeling, and then he made it, and then he clarified that what he had wasn't an actual TR on me, and so all is good (as in, more data required)

[Regfan]

Regfan I hated 764 as well; I disagree that that's never W/W basically because of what hebichan's said about LLD's bussing meta - you don't think that's relevant here? I think having seen the full trajectory of that that if one of them is town it's probably LLD but my read on both slots is pretty squarely below null. Anyway my mind is frazzled so.

I don't think the actual manner that it transpired happens as W/W there, know that LLD is someone that's comfortable bussing but I think Dream's reaction particularly during the debate points against it being a pre-planned or strategic thing and think if was an attempt at distancing/bussing it wouldn't have died done so quickly afterwards and don't think Dreams would have moved off LLD to Baka like he did if that was scum theater given it wasn't like LLD was in a risk of getting lynched.

I'd like to hear what you think about Nos' content recently because I think that she's really really town right now and I hope that you'll be able to join me in that read because it's a read I feel good about even if it's entirely based on meta.

I've liked a bit of what I've seen of him lately but I've got him on my list of players to do a deep ISO of when I finish catching up.

[Regfan]

well at first I was going on the hearsay of him saying he actually TR me (instead of townvibes), just to make that clear

to address your concern when I made the first post I made it with an awareness that desp could come make a follow-up post that would ease the "shady af" feeling, and then he made it, and then he clarified that what he had wasn't an actual TR on me, and so all is good (as in, more data required)

Fair, that makes sense.

How much experience (if any) do you have playing with or spectating games of LLD's?

[drealmerz7]

zero unless they have other accounts I'm unaware of

[Regfan]

@Hiplop -

It's been like ~22 hours and you said you'd be back in ~3, need some reads/content from you.

I'm having trouble following/buying the thought process behind Hebichans Post 723, seems to be saying two completely different things; "Dreams, if it wasn't for people claiming meta reads I'd be voting you" and "Has anyone played with Scum!Dreams?" is very much ????????? the whole post there just feels overly fencesitty.

@Floodgates -

I'm not...understanding the LLD vote in Post 730 from you guys, I have her squarely at null and there's about half a dozen people I'd vote before her here, if it's based around what you guys have run through in Post 747 where you've disliked that her content is effectively the Sakura situation and the Dreamlz one that's something I've mostly read as null from her and think her being at TI & V/LA sick makes the lack of real reads dropped down yet relatively understandable. I think her push on Dreamz, particularly the "Was holding X waiting for your response to get a read on you before dropping it" was decent and liked several of her reasons there, I just don't think it's hugely alignment indicative either way. So is there more to this read I'm missing?

Awesome, finally got around to reading a Prism read wall in Post 750, been waiting for one of these. Thoughts on LLD/Dream, Nos and Hebichan inside there really resonate with where I'm at, particularly the Hebi fencesitting. The only thing inside that post I really disagree with is Imperium but I can understand where Prism is coming from with his sceptisism of that slot, I think them holding back their reads and hoping I 'spotted the same thing' first makes plenty of sense from Tammy but can see how someone would view that as scummy / attempting to cozy up to me.

I get most of the reads in Post 751 but want to run me through the Varsoon read / what you think of what I've recently gone into about him because it seems like we've flipped reads this game in a really weird manner on him with me having him strong town and you having him weakish scum to now you guys having him as town and I'm questioning that. I think your reasoning on Syrana is decent there, I had a ~weakish town read on him for mostly liking the way he popped in to try and do some live posting but hadn't noticed the sheer about proddodges from him at all.

Between the 5 town vs. 4 possible scum question, we're going to go with 4 scum B&M/Desp/LLD/Syr. Prism really wants Imperium here instead of LLD but doesn't have 5 townreads and doesn't agree with nancy slotting NMS/Nos in her 5.

Glad to see you guys actually locked in a scum submission because that's the avenue I would have taken at the end as well, wasn't my initial thought at all though. Way I was looking at it the more I thought about 'what would I do' the logic of "If all 5 town submissions are correct the odds of there being 2 scum inside the 4 names listed is very very high and even if 4/5 listed were correct there's still decent odds of there being 2 scum inside the scum submission so almost always safer to go that avenue", ego initially had me thinking "I'm confident I won't misread Imperium/Floodgates so I can get 3 town reads and win this easily" but yeah, I always struggled selecting the 5th player and wasn't even 100% on the others. I think (???) your submission would probably be a win even possibly just from the two first names on that list. My submission if I'd locked it in a few days ago probably would have been B&M/Desp/Nos/Brian, I wouldn't have either of the latter two in there now though and would probably go something like B&M/Desp/Dreamz/Hebi? with Dreams/Hebi being significantly weaker than the first two.

zero unless they have other accounts I'm unaware of

I think a lot of the reasoning you're putting forward behind your scum read on her is playstyle based and hasn't done much for me, if it's a read you really believe in as strongly as you're claiming you do (even if it's ~feels~) want to take a look at a completed town/scum game of hers and let me know if you still feel the same way/why?

So close to caught up!

[Floodgates]

I don't think the actual manner that it transpired happens as W/W there, know that LLD is someone that's comfortable bussing but I think Dream's reaction particularly during the debate points against it being a pre-planned or strategic thing and think if was an attempt at distancing/bussing it wouldn't have died done so quickly afterwards and don't think Dreams would have moved off LLD to Baka like he did if that was scum theater given it wasn't like LLD was in a risk of getting lynched.

I appreciate that viewpoint but I view both LLD and drealmer as competent scum players and I don't think the interaction is unambiguously never W/W and I'm pretty leery of making that kind of categorization off a single interaction that I don't believe couldn't have been convincingly faked; I think you're right that the trajectory of the interaction overall doesn't feel distinctly W/W at all (it wasn't my argument that it did) but I don't think that saying it's never W/W is a great way to approach it. This isn't really a big deal obviously, just wanting to express my disagreement there.

[drealmerz7]

no, I don't, sorry

I understand the inclination to mostly dismiss my read because of that and the rest of it, and I can't blame anyone for not listening to me about LLD, so I'm going to not worry about it for now and figure if my feels on her persist then our rub will manifest again at some point in the game

[Regfan]

Regfan - I'll stop noobing it up, but there are a couple reads that I'm holding close and there's something in particular I'm not going to comment on because I want to see if you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing. I'm hoping you will, I'm hoping that will make you town, and I hope that the thing I'm holding on to is right. I kinda skimmed a post you made in response to me saying that I'd be watching you in which you said something like you knew I was town already so I should know you were town already, and maybe once I actually read your posts in full I'll see it. I would expect in this situation for you to recognize me before I recognize you though. Oh and the game I was saying I saw you play between you and newcomb was the witch hunt game you played a couple months ago, and I think day two you challenged newcomb to name three of his strongest town or maybe scum reads and you would do yours too and then at the end of the game you'd see who was closest to right for bragging rights I think. I may be kinda fuzzy on some of this here because i only scarcely followed that game.

I feel like I'm talking. I feel like I've addressed this and why I'm being quiet right now. I'm waiting for two things to happen before that changes; first of all, I want to actually finish reading the thread and talk with Nacho about reads if possible. Secondly, I want to see Regfan's reaction to something (if he doesn't post tomorrow, won't hold reads hostage) - while I'm mostly town on him, I do have some doubts and I think his input on something will help with that read.

Ah, think I know the game you're referring to now; not the most recent one I played there, a few games back I think where we placed bets on players and I he won 2-1? or it was a tie 1-1, something like that where we both did dreadfully. And I think your hydra has the most experience with me in the game, Nachos scummed with me in the game I've pretty objectively played the best as scum in and you've both seen games of both alignments of mine in the past and recently, I do expect you guys to notice that I'm town here and I'm sorry if it comes off as rude but I'd have expected you to notice by now. There's some things that I can easily fake as scum but the degree of depth to my reads/thought process that you can actually see me thinking about the game on a few different levels isn't one of them, my reads as scum are something I'd classify as emptier. And look, if you guys want to be paranoid or skeptical of me for some reason that's fine, I'm not getting mslynched this game and it's not a topic I think needs to have an over amount of focus on over actually lynching scum so hoping you guys get together, finish reading and post your reads soon.

If what you're hoping I notice is inside the very early game then I'm probably missing whatever it is because I've not really held back any of my thoughts this game, I've posted them all inside the thread with the exception being I have a LOT more people I think are unaligned that I've not really spent a lot of time mentioning or explaining (For instance Hip/Maria not W/W, Sakura/Hip Not W/W, Brian/Nos Not W/W to name a few). If it's somewhere in the last ~6 pages or so I might notice it soon because I'm doing specific player ISO's over that section once I've understood the context of everything but if it's earlier then just post your thoughts.

[Floodgates]

@Floodgates -

I'm not...understanding the LLD vote in Post 730 from you guys, I have her squarely at null and there's about half a dozen people I'd vote before her here, if it's based around what you guys have run through in Post 747 where you've disliked that her content is effectively the Sakura situation and the Dreamlz one that's something I've mostly read as null from her and think her being at TI & V/LA sick makes the lack of real reads dropped down yet relatively understandable. I think her push on Dreamz, particularly the "Was holding X waiting for your response to get a read on you before dropping it" was decent and liked several of her reasons there, I just don't think it's hugely alignment indicative either way. So is there more to this read I'm missing?

Not really; I was vaguely unhappy with the way she expressed her read on hebichan - the rest of it is in 474 pretty much. I voted LLD there because I thought that interaction was interesting and I wanted to see LLD's response to my vote; really dislike the noise that she's been injecting into thread and I think my vote speaks to that more than to "think you're scum here and want to lynch". I pretty frequently use my votes in ways that aren't expressly to lynch; this is one of those cases.

I get most of the reads in Post 751 but want to run me through the Varsoon read / what you think of what I've recently gone into about him because it seems like we've flipped reads this game in a really weird manner on him with me having him strong town and you having him weakish scum to now you guys having him as town and I'm questioning that. I think your reasoning on Syrana is decent there, I had a ~weakish town read on him for mostly liking the way he popped in to try and do some live posting but hadn't noticed the sheer about proddodges from him at all.

He's been pretty absent but I liked the way that he talked with drealmer; didn't feel like he was "taking sides" - felt like he was defusing there and not in a way that would get him townread, just looked a lot like he was trying to appreciate drealmer's perspective on the LLD engagement. Not really strong reasoning and the townread there isn't strong but I still haven't seen anything from him that I dislike in any special way. Isn't a read that I've really put any particular effort into at this point, though - doubt I will until he starts being a more engaged presence; don't think his absence is AI. Why has that moved to a scumlean for you?

My submission if I'd locked it in a few days ago probably would have been B&M/Desp/Nos/Brian, I wouldn't have either of the latter two in there now though and would probably go something like B&M/Desp/Dreamz/Hebi? with Dreams/Hebi being significantly weaker than the first two.

I think after 764 from drealmer that Prism and I would both undoubtedly slot drealmer in there instead of LLD.

[Nosferatu]

I just forgot that I accidentally put varsoon at the bottom readlist. He should be one tier up.

[morph the cat]

VC 1-12: Major

baku and munna

(5): Regfan, Brian Skies, NoticeMeSenpai, drealmerz7, Cephrir

Desperado

(4): hebichan, hiplop, Sakura Hana, Floodgates

drealmerz7

(2): Lady Lambdadelta, Nosferatu

Cephrir

(2): baku and munna, MariaR

Nosferatu

(1): Varsoon

Imperium

(1): Syryana

Varsoon

(1): Desperado

Not Voting

(1): Imperium

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

Syryana is v/la until August 20

Dream Timer (recalculated):

Day 1 Dream Choice

1. "My Dream Came True"
2. "We Don't Need Another Hero. Oh Wait, Yes We Do!"
3. "I Can't Make Up My Mind"

Vote for the dream of your choice by PMing the mod.

At the end of day 1, information about the dream that receives the most votes will be revealed.

You will be able to finalize your dream choice during the Moonrise phase.

[Regfan]

Bakus read on Dreal in Post 758 of "he can play better than what he did against LLD" he didn't so that means his town is ???????????????? nothing there feels like a real thought process at all and the push on NMS for "OMGUS'ing" when NMS had a scum read on them very early on is awful.

I really like NMS's posts prior to and after that post from Baku, growing more confident they're town.

@Floodgates -

Noted your disagreement on LLD/Dreams not W/W but it's something I feel pretty comfortable stating. Thanks for the explanation behind the LLD vote, makes much more sense as a vote that wasn't designed as a lynch-target but more to get something from them. I'll need to go reread the context between the Varsoon/Dreamlz discussion but I didn't find it massively AI initially, he's not really a scum lean of mine yet, moreso my stronger town read on earlier has moved down to weaktown/null. It's not just his decline of activity and content that I'm troubled by but it's the manner he moved from voting my slot and the manner he moved from voting the Desperado slot feels like he's not actually got a read on either of us and leaving himself the opening to switch back at any time.