Game of Thrones

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Post Post #2175 (isolation #0) » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:22 am

Post by Wraith »

Book-readers feed on your tears :twisted:
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Post Post #2178 (isolation #1) » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:32 am

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I think it was that the actor had other obligations after Season 1 or something. In the books

Both the Greatjon and the Smalljon were at the Red Wedding. Smalljon is killed and the Greatjon despite having consumed enough wine to kill 5 men kicks serious ass until he's subdued. He lives but becomes a prisoner.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #2212 (isolation #2) » Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:06 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 2201, Claus wrote:I'm not following the show (other than this thread), but I went hunting the red wedding scene on youtube. I just missed the part where they
sew the direwolf's head into robb's neck
-- that was when it really "got" me in the books. Do they mention that later in the episode?
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that they said they would be showing that. So yeah like people said it will likely be the opening shot of the next episode.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #2219 (isolation #3) » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:43 am

Post by Wraith »

What was the point of their development if they were just going to die, you ask?

Because it gives their deaths a major emotional impact.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4221 (isolation #4) » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:11 am

Post by Wraith »

Things I Hate: The People Who Still Think GoT's Writing Is Good "movement"

My relationship with the show's writing at this point in a nutshell:

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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4237 (isolation #5) » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:24 pm

Post by Wraith »

Oh yeah, I posted in this thread before I left.
In post 4224, xRECKONERx wrote:
In post 4221, Wraith wrote:Things I Hate: The People Who Still Think GoT's Writing Is Good "movement"

My relationship with the show's writing at this point in a nutshell:

eh, I really don't think the writing is that bad.

It's overwrought in some places, for sure. It's cheesy. But I think there are plenty of bright spots in the writing, too. The characterization, in particular, is fantastic and gives these actors some great shit to work with. Alfie Allen needs a fucking Emmy.
The show is still top-notch on a technical, production, and acting level in general. However, on a writing level, it is abysmal. They have botched entire characters (Sansa, every single Lannister sibling, Jon). But discarding "book purity", the show has suffered from serious plot chasms since seaosn 5 in particular that have only intensified over time.

I think you yourself addressed several in your most recent post on the most recent episode.

It's stuff like this:

* During the tail end of season 5, Jon Snow and several Night's Watch brothers and Wildlings showed up at Hardhome
by boat
to rescue other Wildlings. They partially succeeded, and fought a pretty neat battle sequence in the process. Jon and several Night's Watch brothers, among others, survived this battle and witnessed the real existence of the White Walkers. By the beginning of the next episode, Jon & co. disembarked from their boats (despite the existence of Eastwatch-by-the-Sea which was explicitly mentioned in S7E1 at the latest) and traveled 150 miles inland to the gate at Castle Black, in the middle of winter, with White Walkers on their tail, and entirely reliant upon the dutiful instincts of Ser Alliser Thorne to survive. Ser Alliser, of course, let Jon and thousands of Wildlings through the Wall. Ser Alliser, with other conspirators, then proceeded to assassinate Jon for letting Wildlings through the Wall, this despite the existence of several credible witnesses to the existence of the White Walkers being close at hand. This is
never explained
.

* When Euron is elected King of the Iron Isles, Yara & Theon go off and steal a bunch of their ships. A Drowned Man explicitly says they have stolen their "best ships". Euron then instructs the Ironborn - who are raiders precisely because their home islands lack natural resources beyond iron - to construct "a thousand ships". With what timber, one might wonder? Well,
certain viewers
scanned maps of Westeros and found a convenient forest across the bay in the Riverlands. But this makes one wonder how the Ironborn harvested said timber with ships they didn't have in lands that weren't theirs. I guess the inhabitants of said lands had no problem with people who they were at war with for several years coming along and taking all of their trees. This is
never explained
. Euron then proceeds to, instead of going along with his original plan of wooing Daenerys, woo Cersei instead.

* The Sand Snakes - who are all explicitly bastards - are able to murder their trueborn kinsmen and usurp the throne of Dorne and no one cares. This is the first sign that rules have been
entirely
discarded from this universe as of season 6. In fact, Dorne doesn't seem to exist in the show beyond Sunspear.

* Cersei is able to usurp the Iron Throne with absolutely no legitimate claim - after blowing up the head of the chief religion of the continent in the continent's holiest temple, along with sending an entire great house to extinction - and no one cares. In fact, she seems to have full popular support after this happens as of the most recent episode. Also, the last time a monarch
threatened
to extinguish entire great houses, it triggered the largest rebellion in Westerosi history and overthrew a 300-year dynasty - I guess, um, ignore that now, even if we cite it in the most recent episode. Also the last time a monarch executed a lord paramount their bannermen joined the heir in open rebellion - but I guess since season 6 fealty means absolutely nothing and all nobles are out for themselves in the stupidest way possible. Also Cersei blew up the Pope in the Vatican and somehow still enjoys full popular support (???)

The show literally operates entirely on writer fiat rather than any real suspension of disbelief. It's a travesty, really.

Oh also the whole "I guess no one in hundreds of years found out you can cure Greyscale by cutting off the infected flesh" bullshit was fucking hilarious. Or, if you'd rather, "I guess no one in hundreds of years outside of two dudes read a book that accurately explained how to cure Greyscale".
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4243 (isolation #6) » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:59 pm

Post by Wraith »

AniX wrote:My impression (especially after the Queen of Thorns exchange this past ep) was the official line is it is a tragic accident. You have to remember while the main characters (and the audience) know Cersei is a legitimate psychopath, most people don't. All they see is a woman who had to watch her husband and all of her children die but had the strength to hold the realm together and protect them (recall that as much as they don't know Cersei is a bad person they don't know Dany is a good person. All they see is the daughter of someone KNOWN to be a psychopath showing up with barbarians, an unstoppable kill force, and literal monsters).
The thing is that she was supposed to be there for her own trial and conveniently didn't show up for it on the same day a massive explosion killed all of her political rivals. It's exceedingly obvious that she was responsible for it and the only reason she isn't widely suspected and accused by even the least educated peasant is because the writers say so. In fact, I expected them to go with a half-assed "Tyrion did it" excuse for it since that would at least be in-character but I raised my expectations too high again.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4244 (isolation #7) » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:31 am

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Also Tycho's spiel to Cersei about "getting rid of superstition" again showcases the show's seriously awful relationship with religion. The writers remind me of New Atheists on the internet who can't possibly understand how religion can be an important core value to people and view religious people with simple contempt.

* In general religious figures are almost entirely portrayed as villainous or fraudulent. Melisandre in particular is almost entirely villainous compared to her deeply misguided book counterpart that misinterprets her visions; she is never wrong or hinted to be misinterpreting anything until the end of season 5 when she is
so
wrong that it breaks her faith. The High Sparrow is generally implied to be more interested in using his rhetoric to achieve power than using his power to achieve his rhetoric. The High Septon before him is explicitly hypocritical and mocks his own faith by having sex with seven prostitutes who resemble his deities. Jaqen H'Ghar seems to have absolutely no idea what he is doing period and his cult's beliefs are kept muddled and vague.

* The Brotherhood, vice the pacifist Septon in season 6, is the closest thing to "good guy" religious fanatics. They are explicitly portrayed as greedy (selling out one of their comrades to a religious colleague in no time) and have elements that are outright murderous of non-believers for no apparent reason (murdering the aforementioned pacifist Septon in one of the worst episodes of the series).

* The Sparrows are changed from a populist revolt that arose out of the atrocities of war to a bog-standard group of "Gays Go To Hell" fanatics.

* The Red Priests of Volantis are perfectly happy with being used to spread explicit propaganda at the request of Tyrion, which is doubly funny since he basically asked them to do what they were already doing of their own accord.

* Varys is considerably white-washed compared to his book counterpart, is consistently portrayed as very smart and sympathetic compared to most other characters, and has an explicit contempt and distrust for religion. Tyrion, another greatly white-washed character and one of the show's most popular, also expresses general contempt for religion.

* Deeply religious people are also generally portrayed as foolish or naive. The pacifist Septon is murdered, along with his entire congregation, because he refuses to use violence to defend himself from marauders (that episode was a thematic abomination and I will never get over it). Tommen is easily manipulated by the High Sparrow because he's a dumb kid. Fan favorite character Sandor constantly puts down Beric and Thoros.

It's as if they don't understand why people become religious and how religious belief can drive people, so they resort to modern-day stereotypes. These might seem like petty complaints but when they add up it shows a general attitude on the part of the showrunners that's just eye-rolling and shallow.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4246 (isolation #8) » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:00 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4245, chamber wrote:I thought of the high sparrow is pretty blatantly a 'good' guy in the show? Not one with modern values. But one that wants the best for the people the same a Tyrion or Varys.
It's verambiguous in the show - he seems to have genuine (anachronistic) beliefs of anti-elitist class struggle, but also seems more interested in achieving political power for himself than with using it to achieve those ends. It's a different from his book incarnation where he's not interested in playing politics unless it gives the Faith as an institution more power. He also has no problem with the terrible things his followers do in his name such as rounding up all the gays and marking them.

That said the problem is less with the change they made to him and more with the change to the sparrows in general.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4250 (isolation #9) » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:22 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4249, Iecerint wrote:
In post 4236, zoraster wrote:i'm pretty sure the greyscale was largely about jorah's plotline, not sam's.
Thing is, this is a pretty dumb solution to Jorah's plotline, too.

Dany: Your quest is to heal yourself, find the mysterious way.
Jorah: OK.
Jorah: Physicians, heal me pls.
Sam: OK I cut it off you're good.
Jorah: Thx, quest complete.

Maybe they made Jorah/Connington composite, but then later also decided to get rid of whatever subplot is planned for Connington, so this let them close the plot-hole.
Yeah, now that I think about it again there seems to be absolutely no reason for them to give Jorah greyscale if it was going to be resolved this easily. The only effect it had was getting Jorah away from Dany for the beginning of her invasion.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4252 (isolation #10) » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:37 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4251, Annadog40 wrote:So what other thing could of gotten him away from her?
I really don't see the point of keeping Jorah out of the picture with Dany. Some folks have been saying that the removal of Barristan and Jorah from her inner circle makes it look more like she is a foreign conqueror and thus take away potential popular support from her, but that's not really true because Tyrion is still there.

With the send-off he was given they really should have just ended his plotline there. Or not given him greyscale at all. Iecrint is probably right on the money with his assumption.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4259 (isolation #11) » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:25 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4258, zoraster wrote:why does everyone suddenly give a damn about Ed Sheeran?
Personally I view it misdirected subconscious anger.

People know, deep down, that something is off about the show and has been for a while, but either don't want to admit it or don't know exactly what it is. So they take hold of a minor issue and pour their displeasure into it.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4262 (isolation #12) » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:21 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4261, Rhinox wrote:
In post 4259, Wraith wrote:
In post 4258, zoraster wrote:why does everyone suddenly give a damn about Ed Sheeran?
Personally I view it misdirected subconscious anger.

People know, deep down, that something is off about the show and has been for a while, but either don't want to admit it or don't know exactly what it is. So they take hold of a minor issue and pour their displeasure into it.
There's definitely a sub-culture of hate-watching GOT and picking every little thing apart. I think season 5 being terrible has a lot to do with the vocal rage and complaining throughout season 6 and the current season, even if the show is stronger now. I think hating on the ed sheeran cameo was just an easy target to hate on. But I think people do know whats "off" about the show and are very vocal about complaining about it on the internet and other message boards. I think in the most general terms, the show has inconsistencies, and I think everyone has a limit of how much inconsistency they can tolerate, and when that limit is reached they react in certain ways, kinda like the stages of grief or something.
Yup. Shamus Young (if anyone knows who that is) calls this "story collapse". It's when your suspension of disbelief is pushed so far that you lose your trust in the storyteller. When you're angry not at the universe of a work of fiction, but with the person behind the curtain, you begin to question every past and future decision made by the storyteller, and you are no longer invested in enjoying the story but in figuring out the storyteller's intentions.

This haas personally happened to me several times and there's just some media or creators that I just can't enjoy anymore: Bethesda games, The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, and Mass Effect are examples off the top of my head.
Last edited by Wraith on Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4271 (isolation #13) » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:39 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4270, AniX wrote:You don't think eliminating/mitigating all of Dany's military allies is progress?
I'm pretty sure I see what he's arguing.

Dany started this season with what
should
have been overwhelming strategic superiority. So the writers had to nerf her through nonsense plotlines. But Dany is still obviously going to triumph in the end.

So to Firebringer is saying that the plot
regressed
rather than progressed. We are essentially spinning the hamster wheel until the writer decides to have Dany and Jon stop acting like idiots and win again.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4276 (isolation #14) » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:04 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4274, AniX wrote:It's only regression if Dany is going to succeed in the end. You are basing your opinion on the season from what you think will happen 1.5 seasons from now.
I'm going to spoiler this just in case

It is exceedingly obvious that Dany is going to win and Jaime is going to kill Cersei.


This is only partially gleaned from the addition of book context.

Which makes it extra-baffling why they cut the
valonqar
line from the prophecy.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4278 (isolation #15) » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:22 pm

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In post 4277, Firebringer wrote:I don't think this even progresses cersei story that much?
I mean it obviously looks more into her spiral into a monster but like she doesn't seem to have any overarching goals beyond "survive"

Maybe someone can tell me I am wrong about that.
It's a failure of the show.

They have totally botched the characterization of all the Lannister siblings. They have decreased emphasis on Cersei's narcissism, internalized misogyny, and her paranoid fear of Tyrion in favor of her naked lust for power and revenge.

I think that's why the omission of the
valonqar
line was so significant for me. That entire prophecy is very central to Cersei's entire character and the elimination of a single line has incredible consequences, as unlikely as that may seem.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4286 (isolation #16) » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:58 pm

Post by Wraith »

no u
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4302 (isolation #17) » Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:51 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4289, Hiraki wrote:Image

if you really want to stretch it and say she went around KL, then there's no reason why jaime shouldn't have gotten ambushed
Have we reached peak "stealth teleporting army/fleet" level? Or was Euron's in the last episode even worse?

Like seriously the Dothraki marched across the continent and no one noticed until they were right on top of them. No news or rumors or anything to just basically indicate that this world is realistic. These are DOTHRAKI. Terror should be rapidly spreading across the land as they thoroughly rape and pillage everything in their path. Jorah explicitly advised her to go to Astapor and get Unsullied back in season 3 for this exact reason, and now we've forgotten about it, conveniently just in time for more teleporting bullshit to happen.

Battle was cool, though. The shot and soundtrack when Drogon roared into view legit gave me goosebumps.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4304 (isolation #18) » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:08 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4303, Fluminator wrote:Anyone going to be watching these guys next tv show "confederate"?
I'm split. They haven't handled female characters and gender issues very well on GoT, so I'm exceedingly skeptical how well they will be able to handle race.

On the other hand,
someone
has to fight the fight against Lost Cause bullshit that will inevitably tag along.
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"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." -Helder Camara

"For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him." -Eugene Debs

"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4305 (isolation #19) » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:21 am

Post by Wraith »

Oh wow, there was a pretty blatant hole in the writing last episode that I didn't notice at the time but just found out about.

When Arya arrives at the gates of Winterfell, she is told "Lady Stark" currently rules the castle, and asks "Which one?" Yet there are only three possibilities for the identity of "Lady Stark" - Sansa, Catelyn, and Arya herself. Arya was at the Red Wedding and thus knows her mother is dead.
So why is Arya confused as to who is the "Lady Stark" the guards are referring to?
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Post Post #4311 (isolation #20) » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:20 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4307, chamber wrote:I noticed that at the time. It's a huge stretch to call that a plot hole. Shes been out of the north for a long time. Maybe it's someone Jon married for all she knows.
That's actually a decent point.

But the pedantic in me must point out that a wife of Jon Snow, King in the North, would be referred to as "Queen X" and not "Lady Stark"
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Post Post #4312 (isolation #21) » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:23 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4309, Rhinox wrote:
In post 4302, Wraith wrote:
In post 4289, Hiraki wrote:Image

if you really want to stretch it and say she went around KL, then there's no reason why jaime shouldn't have gotten ambushed
Have we reached peak "stealth teleporting army/fleet" level? Or was Euron's in the last episode even worse?

Like seriously the Dothraki marched across the continent and no one noticed until they were right on top of them. No news or rumors or anything to just basically indicate that this world is realistic. These are DOTHRAKI. Terror should be rapidly spreading across the land as they thoroughly rape and pillage everything in their path. Jorah explicitly advised her to go to Astapor and get Unsullied back in season 3 for this exact reason, and now we've forgotten about it, conveniently just in time for more teleporting bullshit to happen.

Battle was cool, though. The shot and soundtrack when Drogon roared into view legit gave me goosebumps.
The battle happened near the blackwater outside kings landing.
How do we know that?

Was this explicitly stated in the show and I just missed it?

Where did those giant rocky plateaus come from? We have never seen them from King's Landing. It is not the terrain near King's Landing. It is nowhere close to the terrain on the map in that very post. Terrain near King's Landing and the Blackwater is heavily forested or flat. This would be a valid question whether or not the battle took place in the Crownlands or the Reach, it is merely more valid because we have never seen similar terrain near King's Landing in the past while we have seen nothing of the Reach.

This explanation doesn't make sense.
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Post Post #4329 (isolation #22) » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:06 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4325, chamber wrote:
In post 4318, xRECKONERx wrote:Yeah I'm rather over the teleporting complaints

Would y'all prefer 6 episodes of Dothraki riding aimlessly around instead of just getting to the actual interesting stuff?
I don't mind it not being shown but I wish we at least saw scenes in chronological order then. Logistically I don't think we are, which doesn't help the teleportation feel.
We don't need to literally see it. This can be covered as simply as some throw-away lines by side characters about refugees fleeing devastation, X army being on the move in Y area, or something similar. Simultaneously, these throwaway lines need to make some amount of sense and not violate things that have already been established, such as when the Vale army infamously took over and camped out at Moat Cailin - aka the extremely important chokepoint between the North and the South that is notoriously difficult to take from the South - for a vague but not inconsiderable amount of time with the Boltons *never* noticing. The same Moat Cailin that Roose Bolton had to be smuggled around and taken from the North by subterfuge because it is notoriously impossible to assault (
this is not even book context speaking, this was from the show too!
).

When you cut out the context, it makes this conflict seem more like a literal chess game than a war. In realistic war, armies don't stay idle or teleport or do nothing worth mentioning until they are needed in a staged battle or siege. They march, they pillage and affect the local area, they push civilians ahead of them through fear and devastation - they are difficult to keep concealed with absolutely no mention for even short periods of time, even if they are sitting idle somewhere.

But this season has literally made the conflict a chess game - Euron to Shipbreaker Bay, takes Yara and Dorne. Unsullied to Casterly Rock, takes Casterly Rock. Euron to Casterly Rock, takes Dany's Fleet. Jaime to Highgarden, takes Olenna. Dothraki and Dany to the Reach, takes Jaime. Chess is a metaphor for war and politics, but war is not a chess game.
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Post Post #4352 (isolation #23) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:49 am

Post by Wraith »

BTW this plan to get a wight and show it to the insane sociopath who is definitely trustworthy is the dumbest shit ever
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Post Post #4371 (isolation #24) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:27 pm

Post by Wraith »

Reminder that this plan to convince the most untrustworthy person in Westeros to ally with them has now cost Dany one of her three dragons.
I'm sure it will be worth it.
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Post Post #4378 (isolation #25) » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:30 am

Post by Wraith »

BTW I've been seeing fanboys seriously argue that the lake battle and time weren't a huge error because it would've taken five days for the lake to re-freeze thick enough to support the weight of the wight army.

Seriously.
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Post Post #4396 (isolation #26) » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:27 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4392, pirate mollie wrote:
In post 4389, Rhinox wrote:
In post 4388, xRECKONERx wrote:one episode would have Catlyn telling Brienne to take Jaime and the next episode they'd be at King's Landing
might happen all in one episode even


Also, kinda disappointed they haven't even mentioned theon/yara/euron the last 2 episodes. In 704 Theon wanted to ask dany for help rescuing yara. I get 706 was primarily a north/beyond the wall episode, but there's no reason they couldn't have fit in a quick discussion between theon and dany in 705 to set up whatever resolution of that plotline they have planned for the finale.

And I wish the growing relationship between dany and jon was done better. Up until the scene on the boat the only indication there was any "spark" between them was because other characters had to keep telling us, pretty much breaking the number 1 rule of storytelling (show don't tell). It still doesn't feel like there is any sort of romantic interest between them. Now it seems more like mutual admiration and respect. Doesn't really seem any different than how tyrion and dany felt about each other when dany named him hand.
I feel like the progression of their romance seems very unnatural and rushed. I am not sure if this is because the writers removed dany as a relatable character or what. I only understood that there was a "spark" in the cave between 2 pple alone in it cos the writers explained it after the episode. it just seems forced.

I kinda feel like that is what is going on with sansa and arya. arya knowing that joffrey was a sadist shld give insight into why sansa wanted ned to confess and not face execution. ned was executed anyway and both sansa and arya wanted joffrey dead. they both had to do what they needed to do to survive.

that doesn't make sansa anymore likeable tho, I mean she is falling for the whole bad guy thing AGAIN.

but I don't like that the writers are having to explain what ought to make sense within the story itself in the first place.

Spoiler:
I didn't even shed a tear when viserion died. it was like "oh yeah that was expected" and yet there are so many things that have been expected that drew forth an engaged emotion, and I am trying to figure out why this episode fell completely flat.

@ani - I think the night king is gonna be either a targaryen or a stark. I have ruled out stark.

and you haven't explained why the nk was able to walk through fire or the dragonkilling spear. :P

nk is in the know moreso than any of the living characters.

also MORE BERIC AND HIS FLAIMING SWORD PLZ
Three things about Dany and Jon make it seem weird between them:

1. Most romance arcs have taken place over the course of a season
at least
, this is taking place over the course of 5(?) episodes

2. Very few actual conversations between Dany and Jon about things outside official business. Most of their conversations with each other have simply been "Dany pls help with White Walkers" "Bend the knee" "No" "Then no" and that's about it. Almost everything they've actually learned about each others' characters have been
told
to them by ancillary characters like Davos and Missandei.

3. The writers have been extremely inconsistent with how sympathetic Dany is supposed to be to the audience. One moment she's extremely concerned about civilian casualties in KL, the next she's extinguishing entire noble families out of stubborn pride.
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Post Post #4398 (isolation #27) » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:03 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4397, chamber wrote:
In post 4396, Wraith wrote:3. The writers have been extremely inconsistent with how sympathetic Dany is supposed to be to the audience. One moment she's extremely concerned about civilian casualties in KL, the next she's extinguishing entire noble families out of stubborn pride.
I think this borrows from the books POV changes. She seems more sympathetic when we are getting her view. Less when getting tyrians.
The thing is that they didn't explore Dany's identity conflict in Mereen pretty much at all in the show.

In the books she has to repeatedly compromise her principles of idealism and liberation for the sake of peace. This went even as far as tolerating the re-institution of slavery in both Astapor and Yunkai in order for it to stay abolished in Mereen. The Yunkish repeatedly insult her as well an she has to sit and take it for the sake of peace. Then the peace breaks down because Drogon reappears, and she leaves the city on him. And her embrace of her more ruthless and warlike "dragon" personality over her nurturing "mother" personality is symbolically accomplished in her final chapter of ADWD.

But in the show barely any of her Mereen plotline happened - it was mostly given to Tyrion in S6, and in highly-abridged form at that. Dany's more ruthless actions in that season and seasons past - ie burning the Dothraki khals, betraying the Astapori masters, killing the Yunkish leaders, crucifying the Mereenese masters, etc. - were all justified to the audience because the victims of that ruthlessness were all tremendous assholes, backstabbers, and/or committed awful crimes themselves. So it comes completely out of left field when she exterminates the Tarlys for defying her - Randyll was an asshole, but Dickon was portrayed completely sympathetically. And the same when it comes to Jon - why is she now so stubborn that he submit first before she helps him rather than helping him now and asking for his submission later (literally what Book!Stannis came to realize but D&D of course never understood Stannis's character)?

The seemingly minor, superficial cuts they've made in past seasons have piled up to cause a major problem of narrative dissonance in the present. Dany's sudden transition into uncompromising ruthlessness is jarring and seemingly unearned.
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Post Post #4403 (isolation #28) » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:25 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4400, Ranmaru wrote:She said she would do it and stuck to her word, they had their choice. I agree with Chamber.
That's not my point. Up to S6 Dany had only killed unsympathetic characters. But suddenly she decided to kill a sympathetic character in an exceedingly cruel way. I forgot to mention that - does she really need to execute people by burning them alive? No - she didn't even use this method of execution against the Yunkish leaders, she had their throats cut. But the writers are making her use that method in order to deliberately play up parallels between Dany and her father, the Mad King. Up to this point, the audience hasn't been led to believe that Dany is turning into her father, but suddenly this season this parallel is played up.
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"Our demands most modest are - we only want the earth!" -James Connolly
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Post Post #4411 (isolation #29) » Wed Aug 23, 2017 11:42 pm

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Post Post #4417 (isolation #30) » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:52 am

Post by Wraith »

script spoilers ahead

WHO'S READY FOR
B O A T S E X
TONIGHT
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Post Post #4421 (isolation #31) » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:16 pm

Post by Wraith »

M A R I N E

V E S S E L

I N T E R C O U R S E
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Post Post #4423 (isolation #32) » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:26 pm

Post by Wraith »

When you are so hung up on civilian casualties and decide not to crush a backstabbing psychopath but instead go on an elaborate mission to capture a wight so you can convince the least trustworthy people in Westeros to ally with you, and then she not only refuses to ally with you but plans to backstab you at the first opportunity, and also you sacrificed one of the only three dragons on the planet for this plan and also allowed the zombie-making magic creatures to revive it and destroy the Wall protecting you and invade your lands and slaughter countless people.

because you were worried about civilian casualties


Q U A L I T Y

W R I T I N G
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Post Post #4425 (isolation #33) » Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:31 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4424, Rhinox wrote:And gods did i ever spit out my drink when littlefinger said ravens have a hard time flying in this weather :giggle: :lol:
It forgot to get into its jet plane like the one from episode 6
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Post Post #4428 (isolation #34) » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:08 pm

Post by Wraith »

There was tension at Winterfell because the writers said so

That's literally it.
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Post Post #4447 (isolation #35) » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:12 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4443, zoraster wrote:why is he supposed to be worse than joffrey or ramsay? I didn't get that sense that was intended at all.

He basically comes across as the evil version of Bronn.
It's a relic from the books. He's built up way better in them, and is implied to have a supernatural agenda on the "global threat" level of bad. In the show they probably intended to cut him entirely but after the most recent TWOW chapter was released upping his importance they had to shove him back in without warning. They've excised a lot of his supernatural elements so in the show he's just a crude, psychotic asshole
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Post Post #4452 (isolation #36) » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:17 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4449, Faraday wrote:Euron is p bad in the books so far too imo
Do you mean bad as in evil or bad as in a bad villain?

Because I get that, a lot of what has been revealed about him and his true threat/motives has come from that one preview chapter. Kind of came out of nowhere when I think most readers viewed him as a bit of a joke up to that point.
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Post Post #4454 (isolation #37) » Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:24 am

Post by Wraith »

In post 4453, Rhinox wrote:Was Euron the one who showed up with the dragon horn at the kingsmoot in the book? or was that victarion? because that was pretty cool.
That was Euron

Victarion is the really dim one
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Post Post #4461 (isolation #38) » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:34 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4460, Rhinox wrote:Ghost? Direwolf? Whats that?

/s
That depressing moment when you realize there were numerous opportunities for Ghost to make an appearance but didn't either because they forgot or didn't have the budget because of all the damn battles.
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Post Post #4464 (isolation #39) » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:00 am

Post by Wraith »

Honestly it would have been enough for the characters to have acknowledged Ghost's continued existence with something as simple as a throwaway line. I don't think he was mentioned a single time all season. He's practically become the wolf version of an un-person.
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Post Post #4477 (isolation #40) » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:19 pm

Post by Wraith »

In post 4472, Fluminator wrote:Super sad the Littlefinger wasn't the big bad in the final season.
When they cut the Vale plot they clearly had no idea what to do with him. The exact moment he went off the rails as a character was when he sold Sansa to the Boltons and had the conversations with her outlining his so-called "plan" in doing so, which made absolutely no sense and was completely out of character for him. After that point, his only purpose after was to serve as the Deus ex Machina for the Stark plot of season 6, and at that point his continued became redundant. Sansa really should have just had him killed in the season 6 finale, it would have made a lot more sense. His entire season 7 plotline was to stand around scheming pointlessly in what transparently an effort by the writer's to fuck with the audience's expectations. I knew that "twist" in the season 7 finale was coming ever since last year when they tried to push that lame, shitty fake tension between Jon and Sansa in the season 6 finale.

FYI if anyone was not in the know, Bran's actor revealed in an interview that there was a scene cut from the season 7 finale where Sansa goes to Bran with her concerns about Arya, and Bran reveals what he knows about Littlefinger. While this addresses the gaping plot hole that should have been addressed long before, it also shuts down the idiotic fan theories that Arya and Sansa were faking out Littlefinger all along. That scene really should have been kept in nonetheless, but it was obviously cut to make the fake-out land harder. In reality it just fell flat because it was telegraphed so clumsily.
In post 4466, Raskolnikov wrote:That sickening feeling when you know jon and D are inevitably going to win and live happily ever after but you root against them anyways because you feel they don't deserve it at all and only got there through plot armour and dragon ex machina. I'm hoping while they're in siberia at least sansa vs cersei happens in some way and is interesting.

I thought the point of the series was for people on the "good" side to learn to play "the game" and finally beat cersei etc at it, even if in the process they become a little gray or in some ways a lesser evil. But it's like throughout jon just stays the same as always but lucks out repeatedly and D has power overwhelming through dragons so everything's fine. Not vs the undead I guess but in isolation I don't see how that conflict is going to be all that interesting either as basically PvE. Everyone being so apparently naive again WRT the wight plan just feels like a massive step backwards and I think it's safe to say that theme is pretty dead now and idealism won out through basically magic after all. Or maybe they did have some secret other plan they accomplished with that meeting to be revealed later and it wasn't pure stupidity?

Even sansa executing LF was something that was supposed to be a really good moment but felt lame and really easy IMO.
Personally I think what disappoints me is that it seems to dispel a promising fan theory about the books that I wanted to believe. A central theme of the books is the destructive and cyclical nature of war, so the fan theory was that the books wouldn't culminate in some great final battle with the Others, but that it would culminate in some sort of peacemaking pact between the Others and humanity, spearheaded by Jon (whose book arc is learning about the social contract and the responsibility rulers have to their people) and likely resulting in Dany never personally sitting the Iron Throne on way or another. I thought this would be a wonderful resolution to the central tension.

But alas, I think several elements that are clear from the show will translate into the books as well - most notably Dany very obviously getting pregnant from BOATSEX and the zombie dragon destroying the Wall. The Wall has always been expected to be destroyed, but I don't think any book-readers expected the zombie dragon to be the cause. The Others getting control of a dragon probably means peace won't be possible. But I don't know...the show is so radically different from the books at this point it's really difficult to trust anything from its plot.
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