Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[massive]

Are you town reading Gamma/Sunlit?

Yeah, I was leaning town on Sunlit in 423 and I think Gamma has followed that line, so at this point, I feel like this is town-Gamma.

[Game Replacement]

Prodge - Things come up

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Korts

You have been voting me since the moment you were caught up. Since then, this is the second time you made it look like you were adding your vote to my wagon. Are you trying to create the illusion of momentum?

I think a lot of that post is pocketing btw, look at how many townreads he has.

I have not made any townread declarations in that post.

I forgot I was. Still a good thing to reaffirm the location of my vote. Also you may not have voiced solid townreads but you look like you're trying to appease everyone. Plus the fact you said "I am left with Assembler" more or less says you're townreading all the others.

Will try to make some proper time for this game soon.

@Gamma still waiting on pretty much any meaningful response from you on your scumreads / reads in general; re 1023 townreading Tchill for some of the reads that he's made isn't something that I can make sense of without elaboration - would definitely like you to talk about what you mean there / which reads specifically you think he's had that he wouldn't have had as scum here; think that if you genuinely want to guide people to your reads then the way to do is going to be to talk about why / your reasoning - expecting people to just sheep your read because it's something you're saying they should believe in isn't going to get you very far at all in the best of circumstances.

Eddie read in particular is something that I'm struggling to see from you right now on top of what I've already brought up with you; don't understand at all how you go from having Eddie as a townread and telling Robb that his scumread there is wrong / Eddie's effort was town in 953 (really not understanding what "don't have the details for that yet" means there, please explain that) to saying that you wouldn't be upset if Eddie was vigged and that you can't recall anything from him that's pro-town in 1064, as well as what feels like a ton of dissonance in the sequence around 972/979 overall - not really finding your response to monkey in 1097 on that point particuarly sensible when the question there is about the stance of being open to lynch Eddie despite having stated pretty strongly (?) that you felt the slot was town, not your interaction with Robbnva - feels a little like a dodge from you there and your progression on the slot overall has been pretty troubling + haven't even heard what your reasoning for the townread was in the first place or what changed that; really need you to start being clear on your process there at this point please.

I'll cover the Eddie read now: it's based on how Persephone talked about being scumread feeling better than being called incompetent. I highly doubt they would hae had such an organic perspective such as that as scum. I'll try to break down what I find towny about eddie's effort and TChill in a bit, but I can say that now. As for voting Eddie I just got fed up and felt that would help in some way, hopefully break Robb out of his tunnel and get him looking through a broader scope.

@Gamma

Grendel is Kaboose and I was happy voting Kaboose yesterday. Maybe a little dig into Grendel is in order.

I'm gonna stop you there. I know Grendel and I'm fairly certain he's town. Plus if I'm remembering right your reason for scumreading Kaboose may have been poor.

Since when have you town read me enough to hard defend me like this?

You hold some degree of suspicion towards me even when you town read me when you are town. Like, you think I'm town vs this game where you talk like you know I'm town.

Its gets even weirder since I'm explicitly not among your strong town reads.

Speaking of which, you never got around to better verbalizing your monkey town read did you?

I feel your play is more reminiscent of your town play and less like your play in Doctor Who Mafia. I think you could still be scum but I think that would be an endgame paranoia read if I read you that way at all here. As for monkey I'm not sure whether or not I've explained it but I'll do it, and if I already had whatever it's an extra one.

@Gamma

Does Monkey remind you of my play in newbi 1734? Maybe even a tad?

Not sure. What similarities do you see? Also, I don't think he'd be quite the same as you scumplay-wise from what I've seen of his scumgame so far (spectating his newbie game). I'll look over it if you can show a real connection and relevance, as I don't feel like one's there.

[Gamma Emerald]

Sweeping up things:
in nancy's post she says "I don't see how you could be okay with Eddie being vigged" and "I don't get you saying Eddie hasn't done anything pro-town": I was okay with him being vigged because I felt that would help town cohesion by removing Robb's main blockade to working with everyone else. As for not havig done anything pro-town but me townreading him: yeah he may not have actually had any actual protown influence on the game, but he has been towny. There's a significant difference. Honestly Eddie's behavior could be policy lynch worthy if you look at it from a certain angle.
As for TChill I'm not sure if I could find what I was referring to but I feel TChill's reads are based in actual things. His progression on the PS wagon initially looked poor but he explained later and it made sense. TChill initially wanted to get a wagon going which makes sense and I can see town motivation for. I recall in Large normal 204 I called Ginngie's(?) desire for dueling wagons between me and another player town even though it was a generally scummy concept because I could see the town drive there (they wanted to sort who chose whom to vote and their logic). BTW @Grendel this is also why I was townreading monkey early, he said he wanted to fuel the PS/Robb debate and see how it went which would seem scummy but makes sense from town because of the same reasoning I brought up from Ginngie(?) in Large normal 204. Then he switches to Robb because essentially he feels Robb is playing up the read which makes sense as well, since scum have to change the consideration on certain points to swing reads in their favor (based on mastina's teachings). I'll skip to later now with his reasons for not vigging anyone. He stated he didn't want to give scum another free kill after the no-lynch. While this premise is quite faulty as it's a town-controlled kill by nature, it makes sense as he could have been scared to shoot without a flip to base his target on.

[Gamma Emerald]

More stuff (meant to include this but hit submit early by accident):
Eddies's effort: He looks a little scattered but I can see a direct line in his first 3 efforting posts (talking about the possibility of Robb being scum) that leads to his saying "unless you are" referring to Robb expecting RVS votes to make sense. Also his post with his reads summary is a good post imo as it shows decent consideration into the game's events.

[Titus]

I will be off vla tonight. Please send me any recommendations asap.

[massive]

Would like Titus opinions on Tchill, Dark Horse, myself.

[Gamma Emerald]

@MOD it's been a while since we got a votecount and it's close to deadline, please provide a votecount

[Grendel]

Yea... I wasn't wanting to go into compromise mode when its D2, but like, this has felt more like D1 2.0 then anything

@Gamma

I have an admittedly poor track record when reading you. So I think that for the time being I should ignore the pings, and try to sort you through more interaction. I think that pushing for competing wagons is good play, but I don't nesserarly think its a town tell, and I don't think that play is as useful or difficult to implement as it would have been mid/end day. Also while Monkey mentioned it on the onset, encouraging a 1v1 between two emotionally charged players is bad mojo for town morale. It should have been apparent this was the case before things went as far as they did.

I'm willing to retract my thoughts that Monkey was reminiscent to my scum game it newbie 1734. I thought his catch up was a lot more middle of the road then it was. I also noticed he did take the time to interact with current events while catching up. Where as I used catch up as something to hide behind while town self cannibalized. You said that you had some scum meta on Monkey, can you do a comparison/contrast to this game?

I'm still trying to get used to your play style shift this game.
-/-/-/-

Actually, nancy has been in a similar situation too. Its weird seeing her do walls. After thinking it over last night I'd say that her lack of playfulness/enthusiasm is probably town if that T&B game is reliable scum!nancy meta.
-/-/-/-

Looking forward to Titus content.

[Gamma Emerald]

I do see what you are talking about in your first paragraph. The interactions between the two slots did get vitriolic because of that one v one. In the second paragraph I see what you meant and yeah I didn't see anything that felt middle-of-the-roadish to me. I don't really agree that interacting in the present is a big town indicator. For me it's something I commonly do, and something I decided to not do here as I've noted it becomes detrimental at times, specifically in Real Folk Blues it kept me from reading through at a decent speed.
So, other than monkey, where are your reads at? I mostly want to see who you are considering lynching as we get close to deadline.
I'll do the monkey scumgame analysis soonish.

[Titus]

Eyeballed the vcs, why was I not lynched before?

[Titus]

Who is down for lynching human and Robbna?

[Ginngie]

Eyeballed the vcs, why was I not lynched before?

>.>

This actually feels like a town post

P-edit: considering we no lynched, I'm doing highest wagon this go around

[Titus]

Eyeballed the vcs, why was I not lynched before?

>.>

This actually feels like a town post

P-edit: considering we no lynched, I'm doing highest wagon this go around

Can you answer it?

[Ginngie]

I think the closest he got too was 6 and that was because no one else was online, or they were online, and decided not to post

[Gamma Emerald]

Who is down for lynching human and Robbna?

Why?

[Titus]

Who is down for lynching human and Robbna?

Why?

Wagons die when they get wagoned + they have counters, so I am curious there until people show up.

[Gamma Emerald]

Who is down for lynching human and Robbna?

Why?

Wagons die when they get wagoned + they have counters, so I am curious there until people show up.

Not sure what "Wagons die when they get wagoned + they have counters" means.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I don't see why that wouldn't be a valid scumread, that's absolutely something scum do -- ask questions without caring what the answers are, or making it obvious that the answers don't matter to them.

But here, you misrepresented But you know what's weird, is that I was 200% confident when you took up this line that he had voted for me without letting me answer this, and so I went back to quote it and ... it's not as offensive as I thought at first read-through. Yes, he's building off of (at best) "assumed answers" to the questions he asked without actually waiting for the answer, and making an argument based on associatives to justify his scumread equally based on whether the associative is town or scum, and ... well no now that I look at it again it was pretty bad all around. You skim past it in your catchup, can you review this and give me your opinion?

How am I misrepresenting anything? My callout for your actions had cause—as you admit. And also, that's not how I read it. They were reasonable questions. Your reaction to it was overly aggressive and OMGUS-y. Just like now, you were assuming malicious intent where there was no reason to infer that at all. If you're scumreading what he did, you should scumread yourself for building off assumed intention for reasonable questions just to justify your OMGUS scumread to him.

Maybe you weren't an easy target but you were certainly not anyone worth pushing at that point.

Who would you have thought was someone worth pushing at that point if you had been Korts? Where would you get that information from?

That's wrong, I believe Grendel's play here comes from his towngame.

Can you please explain how that may be the case?

Well yeah some might be but I wanted to show my thought process as I was reading.

Still didn't accomplish your goal because I had no idea how your brain decided which is good, bad, okay.

Basically your beginning play and your claim are what make it solid.

Can you explain this so I know you're just not pocketing me?

Wait can you explain what you mean here?

Massive giving nancy towncred is obvious so it's NAI. But you giving Massive towncred for giving nancy towncred gives you towncred. Or at the very least, it establishes S+S or T+T behavior—but I've only thought about that now.

Not really, the vote was just "let's finish what we started" in my eyes.

What motivation do you think TChill has for "finishing what we started" when he could have done that as a Vigilante last night?

I was trying to ensure that I had someone pushing with me the next day, as well as carrying the torch if I got nightkilled.

What made you think that you were getting nightkilled any time soon? There are three PR claimers and one unanimous decision townread. I don't see that motivation genuinely coming from you unless you're bullshitting me right now.

Because I felt massive wasn't really giving him a fair shake.

How would you infer that?

To answer your question first, monkey, I think Ginggie is fucking around, posting a lot but investing little effort, and I really don't think his D3 IC claim makes any sort of sense (although who am I to know what kind of roles can be found floating around these days). At the very least, the claim is verifiable simply by waiting until tomorrow; one thought I had was that he is a Survivor-type deal, or like a Traitor that joins the mafia after D3 maybe? We'll see.

What motivation do you think a survivor role has by not just claiming survivor, instead attracting the crosshairs of both scum and town by lying?

What motivation do you think a traitor-scum role would have by fake claiming a mod-verifable role?

This just makes me feel like you're SvS trying to distance from each other or SvT (scumKorts) trying to cast shade to chip away Ginngie's towncred.

Robb, I think you need to seek therapy instead of channeling your frustration into mafia, because you're ruining the game for everyone else.

I think you need to seek healthy relationships so that you might learn how not to be toxic as a person.

ScumKorts can possibly be partners with Eddie because if Eddie was town, ScumKorts would have pocketed Robb into further mislynching a TownEddie.

I still think Dark Horse is making the most sense out of anyone;

Which parts? You saying that you don't have any solid argument to disprove his case on you is suspect because it feels like you're thikning of a way to lie or demean your way out of it. Don't you think that if you had been town, just an explanation of what your actions were will suffice?

nancy's trying to sort but is obviously disengaged, which I can understand with the game having been how it has

I think nancy has been reasonably fine in her performance. Have you declared a read on nancy yet?

massive is is proactive;

Is proactive AI? Have you declared a read on massive yet?

I have to say I liked Gamma's catch-up.

Which parts?

I know he just replaced out, but come on.

Come on what?

plus that attack on Robb was just gross.

Do you think that was alignment-indicative?

Although I do like the emerald replacing diamond note as a "haha cool thing" moment.

Sarcastic or no?

I think a lot of that post is pocketing btw,

look at how many townreads he has.

I can understand how you could mistake his non-committed statements as townreads. I made the same mistake at a first skim. I agree that it's pocketing tho. It's the condescending "you're good until I say so" that reminds me of Rick from Rick and Morty when he's manipulating someone. Classic abusive personality.

Town!Rob could very well have caught scum with their pants down at the start of the game, but I'm not convinced that is the case here.

What makes you think that it wasn't the case?

Does Monkey remind you of my play in newbi 1734? Maybe even a tad?

I'm just gonna address this line of logic from this post. Acknowledge that I've read your build up.

When has it been the proper way to read someone based on someone else's (or yours) meta? If you're grasping straws here, better grasp the right straws because at least you were going somewhere in your previous cases against me. Here, you just look like you're confbiasing hard. If you tell me this isn't at least influenced by confbias, you're either scum digging my grave or delusional town. Or I'm not seeing an angle here that your reply might shine light on.

CATCH-UP EDIT: Okay thanks for retracting but why did you pursue that line of thought in the first place.

The first player to receive heavy pressure, (and wagoned to L-2/1), is statistically more likely to be town.

So this is how the wiki-definition of IIOA looks like in-play. Huh. Anyway, I don't agree with it and you using it as an argument is suspect.

I also think that Eddies flippant interactions that occuasrred when he subbed in, and were maintained quite a while, are more likely to come from town then not.

What did you think was the optimal scum play going in? Mine's attack the attacker.

I recall that he was present to help prevent a no lynch a the EoD1. Which was town regardless what Assemble would have flipped there.

Based on this, do you agree that people there are more likely to be town that not?

I feel like this is town-Gamma.

What makes you think that?

it's based on how Persephone talked about being scumread feeling better than being called incompetent. I highly doubt they would hae had such an organic perspective such as that as scum.

Good point. See, when you tell us why exactly, you'll get less dirty looks.

As for voting Eddie I just got fed up and felt that would help in some way, hopefully break Robb out of his tunnel and get him looking through a broader scope.

So you townread Robb more than Eddie? Because you're willing to appease Robb by lynching Eddie so that you can get him to sheep you.

Honestly Eddie's behavior could be policy lynch worthy if you look at it from a certain angle.

What angle was this?

Then he switches to Robb because essentially he feels Robb is playing up the read which makes sense as well, since scum have to change the consideration on certain points to swing reads in their favor (based on mastina's teachings).

I'm too lazy to scroll back to that point but I remember siding with Robb on that one and voting Percy. Are you wrong or am I wrong?

I will be off vla tonight. Please send me any recommendations asap.

My recommendation is to catch-up asap so you can begin justifying that scumread on me without looking too much of a sheep i guess.

Also while Monkey mentioned it on the onset, encouraging a 1v1 between two emotionally charged players is bad mojo for town morale.

I don't know how that could be alignment-indicative? Also, it's not as if it was a deliberate nuclear strike on my part because I didn't know how "emotionally-charged" Percy and Robb can get. Also, I thought it was the best way to get us out of RVS. Like you said, it wasn't apparent that it was the case and it's not like I'm Bran Stark.

her lack of playfulness/enthusiasm is probably town

In my scumgame where she was town, she was playful and enthusiastic. That's why I was scumreading her early on—it was contrary to what I observed her towngame was. Since she said she was deliberately changing her playstyle, I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Now, her play makes much more sense as town than scum.

Can you answer it?

I'll answer it. Scum was online and didn't want to lynch their buddy. On the other hand, they might have thought that not lynching you would cast that exact same suspicion and keep the town dark.

[Gamma Emerald]

Responding to monkey's post.

Maybe you weren't an easy target but you were certainly not anyone worth pushing at that point.

Who would you have thought was someone worth pushing at that point if you had been Korts? Where would you get that information from?

Well he noted the chainsaw defense from Aristophanes so him/nancy would have been okay. Maybe TChill as well, as he agreed with you there.

That's wrong, I believe Grendel's play here comes from his towngame.

Can you please explain how that may be the case?

Grendel has a certain solvingness quality to his posts that he lacks when mafia I feel. Here he actually feels like he's trying to solve the game so he feels like town!him.

Well yeah some might be but I wanted to show my thought process as I was reading.

Still didn't accomplish your goal because I had no idea how your brain decided which is good, bad, okay.

I tried to put reasons as to why each read changed in each post but idk maybe I missed something.

Basically your beginning play and your claim are what make it solid.

Can you explain this so I know you're just not pocketing me?

I've stated this apart but I don't think together. I feel your decision to fuel the 1 v 1 between PS and Robb, while it may have sent town through a dark path, was a town-motivated idea. Honestly looking at what I think about the post, it has TWTBAW notes. as for the claim, you don't seem like you're fakeclaiming PR as mafia since you are somewhat overt about you being a PR. That overtness could backfire if you were mafia.

Not really, the vote was just "let's finish what we started" in my eyes.

What motivation do you think TChill has for "finishing what we started" when he could have done that as a Vigilante last night?

He was concerned about giving mafia a kill. Did you not see him say that?

I was trying to ensure that I had someone pushing with me the next day, as well as carrying the torch if I got nightkilled.

What made you think that you were getting nightkilled any time soon? There are three PR claimers and one unanimous decision townread. I don't see that motivation genuinely coming from you unless you're bullshitting me right now.

I was just worried about being killed for my reads. Guess it may have been irrational fear but I felt that way then.

Because I felt massive wasn't really giving him a fair shake.

How would you infer that?

It felt like massive already made up his mind on Grendel based on Kaboose's content.

plus that attack on Robb was just gross.

Do you think that was alignment-indicative?

Yeah, it's basically ad hominem. Hmm, maybe there could be a logic for Eddie being scum in there. Why would Korts ad hominem if Eddie was town? I may have to look over what was being ad homed about.

Although I do like the emerald replacing diamond note as a "haha cool thing" moment.

Sarcastic or no?

Nope. Actually, I have a stupid idea for an alt based on that connection: "Moonglow Pearl" (since Sunlit Diamond is Pokémon Sun + Pokémon Diamond).

it's based on how Persephone talked about being scumread feeling better than being called incompetent. I highly doubt they would hae had such an organic perspective such as that as scum.

Good point. See, when you tell us why exactly, you'll get less dirty looks.

I believe scum wouldn't make that comment because it kinda seems like it's putting a "kick me" sign on yourself, saying to scumread them rather than call them incompetent town, which scum wouldn't want.

As for voting Eddie I just got fed up and felt that would help in some way, hopefully break Robb out of his tunnel and get him looking through a broader scope.

So you townread Robb more than Eddie? Because you're willing to appease Robb by lynching Eddie so that you can get him to sheep you.

Honestly yeah, given all that I've said this is pretty much true. Both have had town motivations, but Robb had actually been putting in the work to solve the game.

Honestly Eddie's behavior could be policy lynch worthy if you look at it from a certain angle.

What angle was this?

That he hasn't actually helped town in the slightest. He was just sitting there and looking cute.

Then he switches to Robb because essentially he feels Robb is playing up the read which makes sense as well, since scum have to change the consideration on certain points to swing reads in their favor (based on mastina's teachings).

I'm too lazy to scroll back to that point but I remember siding with Robb on that one and voting Percy. Are you wrong or am I wrong?

This refers to TChill though.

[Ginngie]

Spoiler: plz

[Tchill13]

I applaud the effort but those walls are hard to read. I don't understand why we can't choose a lynch st this point yet.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I applaud the effort but those walls are hard to read. I don't understand why we can't choose a lynch st this point yet.

Just ctrl+f "Chill" on my ISO and then scroll down towards my final reads list. If you want to know how those reads got to be, you can just choose to read my progress. I'm also looking forward to your replies to them. Also, I've been pining to lynch Assemble and Eddie but both got replaced. So now, I have to wait for Game and Titus to get back to the game before I make further actions. Right now, I'm reacting to everything.


Gamma I hope you're not having a stroke because you've been terribly inconsistent so far.

He was concerned about giving mafia a kill. Did you not see him say that?

Yes, but why would TChill have that concern if the wagon was at L-1 AND he was convinced that Assemble was scum?

Robb had actually been putting in the work to solve the game.

I thought he was confbiasing?!

That he hasn't actually helped town in the slightest. He was just sitting there and looking cute.

I'll give you a moment to review his ISO/posts for a second. Do you really think this about him?

[Gamma Emerald]

@Monkey: I don't see myself as inconsistent. I'm just dawning on new perspectives as things go on.
I can't tell what TChill was thinking, ask him I guess. I've just been inferring based on what I've seen from his posts.
Robb was confbiased but he was still trying. Eddie wasn't actually contributing much to game progress.
And yeah I pretty much feel that way about Eddie.

[massive]

I don't see why that wouldn't be a valid scumread, that's absolutely something scum do -- ask questions without caring what the answers are, or making it obvious that the answers don't matter to them.

But here, you misrepresented But you know what's weird, is that I was 200% confident when you took up this line that he had voted for me without letting me answer this, and so I went back to quote it and ... it's not as offensive as I thought at first read-through. Yes, he's building off of (at best) "assumed answers" to the questions he asked without actually waiting for the answer, and making an argument based on associatives to justify his scumread equally based on whether the associative is town or scum, and ... well no now that I look at it again it was pretty bad all around. You skim past it in your catchup, can you review this and give me your opinion?

How am I misrepresenting anything? My callout for your actions had cause—as you admit. And also, that's not how I read it. They were reasonable questions. Your reaction to it was overly aggressive and OMGUS-y. Just like now, you were assuming malicious intent where there was no reason to infer that at all. If you're scumreading what he did, you should scumread yourself for building off assumed intention for reasonable questions just to justify your OMGUS scumread to him.

As I noted, I had misremembered the event, and when I went back to correct my thought process, I didn't remove all of my previous thought. The first four words of my response should have been removed to better coincide with the rest of the paragraph. Did you answer my question there at the end?

And Gamma has been playing a transparent and one might even say "town-leading" game to this point. I like his reach-out over Grendel as well. I had positive feelings about Sunlit prior to replacement and so it follows.