Mini 1936: Yume's Cutsie U-Pick (Town Win!)

[Cerberus v666]

I forgot about ff7, I was...not really participating in that game, but yeah we were both town there. Also in SU. , which is where I was IC. Also in Wdpt, but you weren't really playing that game.

So, one game that counts imo.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and I was in Inorganic, but as town.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Well good game!

This one was a shitter for me all around. Bad reads and got incorrectly read and vigged. Should have just let Chick lead.

[JaeReed]

You were obvtown dude it's fine. The vig happened because of the pressure rc was under with the restriction.

[Firebringer]

This game made me want to stay retired.

[Cerberus v666]

This game made me want to stay retired.

Hey fb, you should rejoin our holy grail search.

[Reasonably Rational]

First of all, because I didn't multi-quote a whole bunch of Mastina walls: Thank you for being so thorough. I'm going to try and bring this to a close, but we have a PT we can talk in more if you want to take the gloves off and just vent and work out a way to go back to being something like besties and move forward better than ever. I meant it when I asked you to explain to me which post of Cerb's made you so certain, and why. Also ... please read my posts in monotone or something because for real I'm way less hostile than you're receiving. Text doesn't carry tone and if we were talking on discord or something, I think you'd have a totally different feeling for the convo.

As far as me and scum reading me goes, it

feels

like ever since SMITE, you have always just scum read me as the default setting. That's fine. You're entitled to read people however you like. The "problem", inasmuch as there can be said to be one, is that no amount of contrary evidence or actions or reasoning get you to reevaluate. So while I've had this really bizarre streak of being scum for almost all of my games this year, the overall reality over time is going to be that you see me as town at least twice as often as seeing me as scum.

And it's those future situations which led me to ask for help. Like: when I'm town and I absolutely need to be free of you trying to mislynch me ... I haven't got the foggiest idea how to do that.

I don't have a GREAT grasp on how to make winning plans in that they are always, 100% of the time, with a crucial flaw that keeps them from being as good as I wanted.

It is deeply mean spirited (at the very least) for you to throw that at us.

?
How is acknowledging one of the things I do in games for better or for worse mean-spirited?
It is both acknowledging one of my strengths (I am good at coordinating things and making the most of what I've been given), while also one of my greatest weaknesses (I am working off of imperfect knowledge, I'm not omniscient, so what I coordinate, what I plan, what I make, will always have at least one flaw which prevents it from being the success I envisioned).

I mean, do you think it's an inaccurate statement?
Do you think that I don't "do" winning plans? Because it's pretty self-evident I attempt them all the time. They don't often

work

(at least not as intended), but it's pretty unambiguously fact that I do them all the same? I put into motion plans once I have been given something to work with. This is something I do, and have done in countless games. If you agree that I do them, then what's there to be offended by?

And assuming you agree I do them...
Do you think that when I do winning plans, they aren't not-great? As in. Do you think that my plans actually work as intended? Of course they don't. So I don't see the issue there either. I'm stating the truth. I make plans. I always make plans. Yet the plans are never as good as I was hoping they'd be. That's why I have others fact-check them. Hydra partners, but also others. I trust you regardless of your alignment to make reasonable (ha) plans because you are a player and even moreso a hydra who makes great plans.

You're better at making plans than I am. I've said that before. I meant it then and I still mean it now. So I don't see what the issue is. If I'm saying, "I'm good, but not great; you're better than me", what's the issue? It's calling you great, or even better than great. (What's better than great? I don't even have a word for it but if there's any player who mechanics/role-wise would be deserving of that it'd be you.) It's a complement to respecting your abilities. I respect your plans. I also respect your play. I'm not as good as you are. What in that is insulting to you? What in calling you better than me is an insult to you? I don't get it.

Thank you very very much for answering. When I read that, I assumed you were talking about how you are good at making plans that win the game (which is very true, and I've sung your praises for your great moments in games we played together) and then decided to say what you were NOT good at is (paraphrasing for how I understood its meaning) "making GREAT plans that somehow always fail for some reason" which is the millstone hanging round our necks until we actually see one through to a win.

Like there was SU where we legitimately kicked ass and had a plan that resulted in town winning 100% of the time. It also called for killing the miller before LYLO (which even said miller agreed was the right play before and then in postgame). After nailing two scum from one tiny slip, we cleared the most scum read player (who had amazing utility) pretty ironclad logically, but we wanted to pressure them and test it, so our vote was on them, and that miller I mentioned before? Yeah ... he hammered to avoid his scheduled death that day. So our vote being inappropriately placed unraveled a guaranteed win for town into a scum win. That was the first time.

Then there was SD2 where scum literally could have won on day 1, and despite that we came within a single action being taken of pulling out a town win. (And a certain mod refusing to clarify that players could have abilities from the store that could possibly be more or less powerful than the store abilities, which made a town player look like they had lied and the mod post condemned them). That was the second.

And it goes on. So yeah ... I totally read that as a comparison. You make good plans that win games. We make great plans that are fatally flawed by some mistake in logic or mistake in play and can't seal the deal.

okay one thing that confuses me tho, is why Drixx keeps posting in the hydra after the game ended?

I use a different browser so as not to ever hydra slip and I just didn't load into here with my main account. I sign my posts though.

Cerb you aren't nearly as good as you think you are.

Is anyone? You're quite good, in my experience, but then there was that stretch of newbie games we played together and you scum read me in like ... all of them, and I was scum in like one of them. Whatever you're using to read me individually seems broken. I've never met a player who couldn't improve, and I don't believe I've met any who need more improvement than me.

The problem is Cerberus & Drixx looking for the problem (them getting scumread) externally rather than internally.

The first thing I asked post-game was what got our slot scum read and why. It being a post by one of us makes us the proximate cause.

That said: Cerb isn't lying when he says that he would always question you about how strong your read is. Players he knows lie and gambit as town are going to get that kind of question from him and I'm pretty sure regardless of alignment. I didn't get to the game until it was several pages in, but I found it equally as irritating to try and figure out who was being spoken about in posts. I can see how on day one when there's not a lot to go on, a post like that can look like making an excuse not to participate, but I'm almost 100% certain the same observation and complaint would have come out of Cerb regardless of what our role card said. That was a legitimately irritating thing, especially early on when different people were using different nicknames.

So yeah, I see having a "hrm... gonna watch that slot, that could be SAI" but I'm not sure it merits a death tunnel?

Drixx attempting to become confirmed town through setup means is somewhat of a tired trope since Civilization Mafia so I saw it coming a mile away.

ftr this is a good point @Drixx, the gambit was fine but I think would have worked better with less ppl who had been in Civ? idunno.

Well in Civ there was like a mechanical reason to run with that gambit.

In this game, it was just on the spur of the moment narrative. If I could do anything over again I wouldn't have hammered on day two and done as much as I could to better position the team to take advantage of it seeming like we were what we claimed because of the janitoring. FWIW: I chose to hammer on the thought that it would back up the play we would have had to make if the shot had re-directed off from us. I would have had to explain why we thought whomever died was scum with like no real preparation and the mentality of being willing to hammer a "scum read" or gambit to draw fire that we could redirect to someone we read as scummy seemed consistent with one another.

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Just because you're not consciously aware that you're playing with a scum mindset, doesn't mean that you aren't, doesn't mean that you won't have tells to pick up on.

You are not a perfect enough liar to be literally indistinguishable. I know that I certainly am not.

He knows that. I promise he does even if his posts make you think he doesn't. He just gets frustrated when people miss the objectively rationally scummy stuff and pop a scum read on him for something that is NAI for him.

Sure. The problem though is my posting is scummy to some extent all of the time. :p
And sure, I don't necessarily possess the self awareness to see the scum in my posts, but enough people who know me and my speech and thought patterns far better than you or mastina also fail to see anything out of the ordinary in those posts, so....

Well, I'd say I'm probably better at mafia in general than the vast majority of those people, regardless of my meta knowledge on you.

Probably so. But Cerb still will express frustration with something he feels is stupid and a waste of time 100 times out of 100. So then the question is ... was it just that he made a post complaining, or some specific phrasing in that post?

I rarely get a peek inside how you approach mafia... just see the output and not the thinking behind it, so any insight is greatly appreciated.

~D

[Aristophanes]

This game made me want to stay retired.

[Reasonably Rational]

This game made me want to stay retired.

It was hella townsided (and even more so when people with real life relationships got handed the strongest town stuff). It was also fun.

All the post-game convo is like 90% trying to figure out where we screwed up and how to be less bad, and 10% me trying to out wallpost Mastina.

~D

[Aristophanes]

trying to out wallpost Mastina.

Hahahaha Good Luck!

I think killing Reasonably Rational instead of TWC was the point where Scum lost it. It was clever, but not helpful at all. And it left strong players with a strong role (which was Ascetic so you could kill it with no issues if you had tried) alive to save more conftown.

[Alisae]

hey guyz
I would like to thank Torque for getting our slot modkilled.
I would like to thank mastina for deathtunneling me the third time we were both town together.
I would like to thank Ginngie who while had an understanding of how my scumgame works, not knowing how to identify it properly
I would like to thank nancy for talking me out of my Rat scumread
I would like to thank Jae for- This one is being saved for PMs.
I would like to thank Drixx, Cerby, and Varsoon for being joys to play with
I would like to thank Ari for modding
I would like to thank Yume for being a joy to play with and for improving a lot.

[Aristophanes]

Fun Fact!

The role I gave Dioscuri (minus the loverizing) was the first version of JK I ever encountered so I thought it was standard for the longest time!

I was quite excited to be able to use it here!

[Aristophanes]

Thanks for playing everyone <3

[Cerberus v666]

trying to out wallpost Mastina.

Hahahaha Good Luck!

I think killing Reasonably Rational instead of TWC was the point where Scum lost it. It was clever, but not helpful at all. And it left strong players with a strong role (which was Ascetic so you could kill it with no issues if you had tried) alive to save more conftown.

Yeah, during that night phase drixx and I didn't get to talk much, but I had a lot of thoughts of just shooting elsewhere, blocking yume, and seeing what we could pull off with our day play.

The problem was 1) the quickhammer. It supported us legitimately being ICs, but didn't help too much with the narrative of wanting to be shot at, and 2) lack of engagement on either of our parts. I don't know if we would have been able to keep from just getting instalynched, especially since our teammates had standing orders to bus us if we were still alive on D3.

hey guyz
I would like to thank Torque for getting our slot modkilled.
I would like to thank mastina for deathtunneling me the third time we were both town together.
I would like to thank Ginngie who while had an understanding of how my scumgame works, not knowing how to identify it properly
I would like to thank nancy for talking me out of my Rat scumread
I would like to thank Jae for- This one is being saved for PMs.
I would like to thank Drixx, Cerby, and Varsoon for being joys to play with
I would like to thank Ari for modding
I would like to thank Yume for being a joy to play with and for improving a lot.

<3

Also, yes, thank you Ari for running the game. Even if I complain about the setup, which I basically always do, I really do appreciate you putting in the time.

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

[Alisae]

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

Cerb will probably STOP complaining about setups after our series of WORM games get inevitably shat on because ... balance is hard. REALLY hard.

[Alisae]

There is a scale.
Varsoon Crazy | - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - | Normalcy/Mountainous
It's important to find out where you fit on said scale.
I know I am about where Varsoon is (atleast I would like to think so (Subtext: PRE-IN TO MY PERSONA 5 LARGE THEME))
Some people don't like that stuff and just like simple stuff.

[gerryoat]

So everyone. How's the weather?

[Alisae]

Balancing stuff when you go Varsoon crazy
is hard.

Sometimes the easiest solution is the best solution.

[Alisae]

So everyone. How's the weather?

great we love you too btw :3

[gerryoat]

(>w<)/ wobbuffet

[Reasonably Rational]

There is a scale.
Varsoon Crazy | - - - - - - - | - - - - - - - | Normalcy/Mountainous
It's important to find out where you fit on said scale.
I know I am about where Varsoon is (atleast I would like to think so (Subtext: PRE-IN TO MY PERSONA 5 LARGE THEME))
Some people don't like that stuff and just like simple stuff.

Consider me pre-in. With Cerb in hydra if he agrees and you are allowing hydras. Mostly because after some delays we are FINALLY moving out west imminently and if I don't play in hydra I would end up having to take like a 10 day V/LA which wouldn't be fair to any game.

[Alisae]

Oh yeah we're not putting bastard games on that scale those are completely different beasts.

pedit: Dude
I LOVE HYDRAS

[RadiantCowbells]

Is anyone? You're quite good, in my experience, but then there was that stretch of newbie games we played together and you scum read me in like ... all of them, and I was scum in like one of them. Whatever you're using to read me individually seems broken. I've never met a player who couldn't improve, and I don't believe I've met any who need more improvement than me.

I would like to point out that I did correctly townread you in the one where you sat and rather than get defensive, talked about your situation and were really towny and then you were actually one of my strongest townreads. Not that it mattered since we won in like 10 pages

Also the one we lost where you were lynched Day 3 I wasn't, like, scumreading you? I just had to do something about your slot because it was lurking and I wasn't sure who else would be scum. Unfortunately my reads were very wrong that game because I reevaluated past first impressions but, meh.

I feel really confident in my ability to read you when either you actually sit and talk to me or I have an entire game of content to read you off of, but that rarely seems to happen.
There's a reason I wasn't shooting you D1 here, I wanted more time to sort you.

That said: Cerb isn't lying when he says that he would always question you about how strong your read is. Players he knows lie and gambit as town are going to get that kind of question from him and I'm pretty sure regardless of alignment. I didn't get to the game until it was several pages in, but I found it equally as irritating to try and figure out who was being spoken about in posts. I can see how on day one when there's not a lot to go on, a post like that can look like making an excuse not to participate, but I'm almost 100% certain the same observation and complaint would have come out of Cerb regardless of what our role card said. That was a legitimately irritating thing, especially early on when different people were using different nicknames.

So again: is he going to be unsure of the veracity of my reads? Yes, I think that's universal. That specific feeling is not scum indicative.
Is the nature of his interest in the veracity of my reads going to differ depending on his alignment? Yes. Will that show itself in game in various ways? Yes.
It's not something that I can specifically point to but the feeling I got when reading that was that he wasn't trying to sort me or my target, he was just checking off a mental box.
Sort of like gauging the situation and seeing what was up without an interest in sorting either of us, and that felt scummy.

So yeah, I see having a "hrm... gonna watch that slot, that could be SAI" but I'm not sure it merits a death tunnel?

Do I agree with Mastina's deathtunnel? Not necessarily. Do I think that first impressions can be extremely strong at catching people that otherwise are gonna fly under the radar? Fuck yes.
So it's like I understand where you fall but I also feel like it's not unreasonable for Mastina to deathtunnel if you don't do anything to change that read if she heavily scumreads one thing.

He knows that. I promise he does even if his posts make you think he doesn't. He just gets frustrated when people miss the objectively rationally scummy stuff and pop a scum read on him for something that is NAI for him.

From the way I look at the game, the objectively rationally scummy stuff is really hard to read because it's often hard to tell who is bad at mafia or wrong and who is scum.
I've many, many times been burned lynching someone because something seemed ridiculously opportunistic and they end up flipping scum.
So I feel like in general that method of playing the game doesn't work too well and sometimes if there's something opportunistic + a read: there's shit to be done there.
I understand why he thinks NAI because he plays the game very differently, but it's because the entire set of what I look for is outside of what he would probably consider AI.

Probably so. But Cerb still will express frustration with something he feels is stupid and a waste of time 100 times out of 100. So then the question is ... was it just that he made a post complaining, or some specific phrasing in that post?

I covered this somewhere up above but my feeling was that you weren't trying to sort me or my opponent and were more like dispassionately testing the waters somehow.
I really don't feel like Cerb would ever have used that specific phrasing because the point of that would rarely be strictly information if he was town.
Of course, he'll use it as town in the future to prove me wrong, but

[nancy]

I would like to thank nancy for talking me out of my Rat scumread

o.O You were scumreading Rat? Well hey, I scumread him when I actually read his slot beyond tone at least
<3