Survivor: Civilization - Congratulations Boudica!!!

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
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Post Post #21  (isolation #0)  » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:52 pm

i still dont believe hattie wasnt shadoweh
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Post Post #66  (isolation #1)  » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:41 am

In post 47, xofelf wrote:
In post 39, xRECKONERx wrote:#2- We really need a better way to classify games. It doesn't have to spell out every twist, sure. But I think there are very distinct levels in Survivor that people should be able to anticipate. In Mafia games, people label their games in various ways. "Bastard" means "oh fuck here I go with some bullshit". "Role madness" means the game will be more focused on role interaction than day deduction. "Normal" means a game that features a set list of mechanics. I'm not saying we have to be so granular, but there was a misunderstanding here between what the game entailed versus what the game ended up being. When I signed up for Arkham City, I knew it would be buckwild and expected it. When I ran #2016, we told people that there would be some wild mechanics regarding delegates. Here, I had no way to anticipate three tribe swaps PLUS returnee twist PLUS 16 items entering the game at merge. I just think it'd be nice for people to know what to expect. It's possible I'm operating in a vacuum and that shit doesn't matter to other people, so I would welcome feedback.

The Mish Mash mods have already started discussing some things with this and will be getting feedback from the community in order to help define what fits where. One of the bigger problems is that what one person considers heavily twisty isn't something that everyone across the board can agree is extremely twisty. It's easy to put games like the Arkham games and Doctor Who solidly in bastard/heavy twist territory, and games like Nexus and 2016 into very twist. But when it comes to games like Pretty Super Vanilla, Hogwarts, or Eon there isn't clear agreement on whether these are low twist games or not. So the plan is to figure out a standardized labeling system so that people know what to expect when they sign up for the games and we don't fall into this sort of problem again.

Thats why you have clear parameters. The reason no one has a clear idea is because theres no way to have this information.

I think we all thought thats what the mandatory reviewer was indicating. 17 items in a merge is not low twist. Items are not low twist. Tribe swaps every two rounds not low twist.

People have different definitions...but so what? how is that relevant

its a pre immediate problem. Civ and MLS have both really bamboozled players and made them upset.
Last edited by hiplop on Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #67  (isolation #2)  » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:45 am

I think another major problem is lack of balance with items

In gc we saw how 3 idols can break the game. Ms has been towing much more dangerous lines for a while now with all the items injected into the games
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Post Post #70  (isolation #3)  » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:09 am

In post 69, DrumBeats wrote:I thought Borobudur was a frustrating but very interesting challenge. I definitely enjoy the idea of it but my biggest issue with it was that it wasn't clear how we were being judged. As I was playing I had to angleshoot about what would make more sense for the mods to judge it by, number of moves or time. That definitely had an impact on how I played it because I spent extra time trying to optimize my paths with the map that I had of it. I think it was fine for us to go in not knowing it was a maze, but I think we should've known how it was being judged.

yeah, this was bullshit. challenge was weird but fine, lack of judging criteria is a major no-no
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Post Post #73  (isolation #4)  » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:21 am

i think this game had a massive game-play stagnation and thats probably psychologically from so many items injected into the mess. No idea whats in the boxes leads people to be scared.

its a problem we saw on game changers, currently on BB19. Too many twists makes people scared to do anything.
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Post Post #75  (isolation #5)  » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:58 am

Yes
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Post Post #83  (isolation #6)  » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:24 pm

but does that mean most steps or time?
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Post Post #90  (isolation #7)  » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:14 am

In post 87, Shadoweh wrote:The items didn't end up mechanically affecting the game other then Alex'

i mean when youre talking about design what ends up happening isnt that relevant?

things like super unclear "item stoppers" are extremely problematic. Poor definitions of interactions, etc
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Post Post #95  (isolation #8)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:05 am

a lot of mystery items even if low powered (and many of these i *disagree are low powered)+ 2 returnees at the start of merge is massive.

so like

there are twists where it surprises the players, but they have power over the situation. Its a "twist" in a situation, but they have the knowledge of what consequences will happen if they do x thing. "You can not attend this tribal" "you are on exile for the night, you replace whoever gets voted out".

problem with death row/outcasts/etc is like...you make players pull a lever that looks normal and then surprise them with a result. That to me is a twist where the players have no autonomy. That, to me, is a bad twist.
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Post Post #97  (isolation #9)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:15 am

More than that it gives salty people control. In your example that person probably doesnt leave if their reputation doesnt supercede them
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Post Post #107  (isolation #10)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:17 pm

In post 98, BROseidon wrote:Tbh returning players is fine.

Returning players that we aren't told about is kind of bastard.

ye this is the problem

i personally dislike returning players/RI but if you know about it and can play around it, its fun! If it just happens and surprises you and Rend Blackhand/Hannibal comes back to spite you its less fun
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Post Post #114  (isolation #11)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:48 pm

In post 111, D3f3nd3r wrote:And yes, I realize that because I was the one that got fucked over nobody is going to give what I just said any weight.

Youre right on the money. Its not fun to wake up to getting screwed over
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Post Post #117  (isolation #12)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:36 pm

In post 115, D3f3nd3r wrote:Yeah but if there's a warning of "hey guys, the people you're voting out aren't gone for good!" maybe people do a little bit more to make sure they're not pissed at them.

yea thats what im talking about

if something is surprising but players have a way to play around it: good twist
if its just a surprise from something that seemed normal but turned out not to be?: bad twist

these games need legit reviewers, imo.
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Post Post #120  (isolation #13)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:55 pm

In post 119, xofelf wrote:Serious question, does the show announce all of their twists to the players ahead of time? Or does it also surprise the players with new things to have to play around suddenly? I've only seen a few seasons so I'm not sure what the norm is.

these are different questions

surprises happen but on the show they are never like "SURPRISE, your fate is fucked". The cases where it does happen get panned by fans/players. The average ms game right now is considerably more twisty than the twistiest seasons of the show. Auctions are usually one advantage and its something "low powered" like an advantage in the next challenge. Notably it happened in pearl islands, and everyone hated it and it never came back.

Something can be surprising. It shouldn't be secretly surprising while looking the same as something normal.
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Post Post #127  (isolation #14)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:38 pm

In post 122, xRECKONERx wrote:#2) Delete the gold mechanic completely.

i think gold mechanic was fine probably should have just been defined a bit clearer
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Post Post #128  (isolation #15)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:38 pm

but yea, survior takes itself quite seriously and doesn't throw much into the game. There are a few bad twists that have been done that they were like "oops, our bad" and promptly never did again.
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Post Post #131  (isolation #16)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:52 pm

if i reviewed id do:
I) tell them about the returnees

II) Fewer items. Weaker items. These things were powerful. Chatzy/Vacation/Tiebreaker/MULTIPLE DOUBLE VOTES AND NULLIFIERS/idol/challenge adv. This stuff adds up extremely fast. Esp when most of these were mystery

III) clearer definitions on *exactly* what each item does. Multiple double votes can do a lot more than break ties...

IV) Clear definitions on what gold is and how its earned

V) When you found tech it says "whoever has highest score in 24 hours gets it". or something like that?

VI) NO HINTING TO PLAYERS THAT THERE ARE RETURNEES******** this is a serious problem. How mods talk to players has to be extremely, extremely careful/limited. Mod/player relations *have* to be extremely professional and tight lipped.

VII) Not a low twist game at all. This on a scale of 1-5 would be a 4. Leading people to think otherwise really made it less fun for players. That first round was fun, but people probably expected that to kinda be the end of major twists. That was already a huge deal.

IX) That first auction shouldn't have passed review

X) That f4 tiebreaker rule was...not good (though I would have let it be included)

XI) The tech's weren't balanced at all. A idol is much stronger than a vote nullifier and having no way to decipher which one is which was just bad design, IMO. Should have been something to indicate what each one did.
Last edited by hiplop on Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #135  (isolation #17)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:08 pm

i mean theres a reason people like Ozzy/Joe have always made the merge and then are voted out immediately when they are vulnerable.

the best challenge performer is very, very rarely voted out pre merge. Sometimes its a "which one of these scrubs is better?" but Ozzy/Malcolm/Jay/Joe are never in those spots
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Post Post #140  (isolation #18)  » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:17 pm

In post 139, Cephrir wrote:
In post 130, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
PLUS...doing well in challenges already rewards you with immunity. Why are we overvaluing challenge performance even more? Not only do they get to ride through pre-merge safe, and have a better shot at winning later challenges, but now they also get to have an advantage by buying more items?
I'll have more to say when I get home and this kind of dovetails into an essay I have planned for the other thread, but this community UNDERvalues challenge performance to a ridiculous extent and this was a direct challenge to that.

the solution to this problem is less swaps

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

challenges are important if you think youre going to be on a tribe more than 2 rounds.
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