Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Capricious]

vote: Y

Y not?

Cause I used that joke myself in some games, that's Y.

Vote: Y

You aren't getting away this time.

[Capricious]

bandwagon Y to win! before he gets a chance to defend himself.

[Capricious]

WOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLVEESSSS!

They're coming. To eat me.

*hides in a corner*

Vote: Skruffs

. He has survived the Night. He is therefore obviously a werewolf.

The last time you tried an early day one wagon on me, Zindaras, you were scum. I'm going to be scrutinizing you a lot more, this time. Just an EFF-WHY-EYE. I believe you (being paragon) are much more apt to be Glorked than I am in regards to surviving night one.

These two are obviously members of the cat mafia, we'll get them after we get Y.

[Capricious]

Add Elmo to the cat mafia list, I've cracked this open!

[Capricious]

wolves, cats, there's a fuzzy line. They all the same

[Capricious]

blasphemer

[Capricious]

Our hero

Capricious

stands

resolute

in the face of the

treacherous

cat mafia

_________ noun ________adjective _____________adjective group of losers

Let us discuss why the kill was made on an unknown player, and not on B-list celebrities such as Zindaras and Skruffs, or even a D-list celeb like Y. I feel that if the scum were solely composed of relative newbs, they would target a strong player, not only because it would be a good play, but that the weak always want to get to the strong.

[Capricious]

Ah, Newbie 546, review Y's STRONG pro-town play in that game. How can such a STRONG town player not be killed night zero?

[Capricious]

It was a followup to the previous post (Where I talked to Capricious). I made a comment about the game insinuating he's scum because of that game, while in reality we were both scum in that game. It was a joke, nothing useful, but Capricious is actually starting to analyze it... He's meta-gaming, and he's doing a terrible job (He shows how I was very pro-town and saying scum should have noticed it, while I was scum in that game).

This has to be a joke

Skruffs - I'm pretty sure I've seen you in Scumchat.

Capricious wrote:
Let us discuss why the kill was made on an unknown player, and not on B-list celebrities such as Zindaras and Skruffs, or even a D-list celeb like Y. I feel that if the scum were solely composed of relative newbs, they would target a strong player, not only because it would be a good play, but that the weak always want to get to the strong

Couple of questions for you:
1) How do you know there was only one attempted kill?
2) How does this speculation help us in finding the scum?
3) How come I'm not mentioned as one of the celebrities in this game?

1. Saw one kill, assumed one kill attempt
2. Do you have anything else better to be talking about?
3. You don't want to be a celebrity

[Capricious]

I guess I should put my vote where my mouth is then

vote Capricious

This is bad, remember what happened last time you did this? Scum piled on as the L-2 and L-1 votes and I got lynched at deadline. Roles weren't revealed, so it didn't matter that I caught two of the three scum. Nobody would believe me. Conclusion from meta-game: Capricious Vote always bad.

[Capricious]

That was actually my point entirely. Your metagaming was just as bad as mine, and I cannot understand why you people have spent a page discussing it. I agree with Y in that it bores me.

[Capricious]

I'm confused also by your "The game only identifies vanilla townies."... that strikes me as wrong, because Strappado was not a vanilla townie.

Secondarily, if the scum were allowed to kill n0, then the investigative roles were allowed to target as well.

I'd like to introduce some meta into the game regarding strappado, me, rotten snitch, zindaras, and others. I don't have to but it might be worth stimulating discussion with.

Firstly, I'd like to see some of the meta information but for discussion purposes. I hope we won't try making a case out of pure meta, but I think meta here might be helpful.

Also, I have a thought on N1 actions. It was pointed out by a couple of people that N1 night actions might have happened. We did get a N1 kill, so obviously someone was allowed to do SOMETHING. However, re-reading the background text:

"Once we disposed of them all, another brilliant man--her grandfather, incidentally--

thought to plant wolfsbane all over the village. And the smell has kept the wolves out...for good."

I kind of came into this thinking that scum are werewolves based on the flavor text, but I have to wonder now if I was wrong in that assumption. I see no reason that wolfsbane would suddenly stop working, so if the scum ARE wolves, then how could they get into town to kill?

It kind of makes me remember the movie The Village where the "monsters" were actually people.

Thoughts, please? This is the first game like this (a really detailed theme game) I've played and I have no idea how much to read into the flavor text and I don't want my imagination running off with me.

Now, this I would like to discuss.

[Capricious]

unvote

Capricious, if you want to discuss it, then discuss it. And you definitely can't meta yourself based on that one game. I'm

this

close to voting you right now. I need to see some excellent contribution in order to keep from voting you.

Don't threaten, if you want to voice your opinion through a vote, do so. Votes leave us with more evidence and track record later. That post just makes you look scummy because anything I reply with can be struck down by you as not on par with "excellent contribution". Thereby giving you what would appear to be a solid reason to slip a vote to others.

On the werewolves:

I still believe werewolves are scum and will continue to do so until we have reasons to suspect otherwise. The "For good" part of the flavor just sounds melodramatic. However, we might have reason to believe that power roles using wolfsbane are, in fact, ineffective.

[Capricious]

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

this is false, contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes, I believe are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

[Capricious]

On the werewolves:

I still believe werewolves are scum and will continue to do so until we have reasons to suspect otherwise. The "For good" part of the flavor just sounds melodramatic. However, we might have reason to believe that power roles using wolfsbane are, in fact, ineffective.

After emphasizing that the wolfsbane kept the werewolves out for good, you say you don't believe this is the case. Do you have a role PM saying they are here again? Their names, maybe?
Furthermore, you say there are werewolves, but that power-roles with wolfsbane won't be effective?
I think you forgot the "Pro-town investigation roles, please don't target me" part.

Right, I emphasized that the wolfsbane kept out the wolves for good, the "for good" part is melodramatic, sarcastic, and probably false.

Why would investigative roles use wolfsbane?

Good with vote on Y

[Capricious]

I did not bring it up, I considered that docs or vigs or whatever else may use wolfsbane. You twisted this into investigative roles, which doesn't make sense. Wolfsbane is used to harm or fend off werewolves.

[Capricious]

Really, and when did this happen?

[Capricious]

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

[Capricious]

My vote on Y was not based on a misunderstanding, don't trivialize it like that.

I voted for Andycyca for being scum attacking easy target Rotten Snitch town.

[Capricious]

I mentioned it again, Capri is prodded when there's a wagon on his back and all he does is a pressure vote (a prodded guy, pressuring others?)

Nah, not a pressuring vote, an aspiring to lynch vote.

[Capricious]

hi

[Capricious]

Not really. Me and Zindaras have a history, a history in which he wwas factually scum every time but one. So I am trained to be suspicious of him now. I'm still posting out side of that suspicion, but as the number of players dwindle, the more likely i will be to push for his lynch.

Him being scum in other games makes no difference to this game. This post is completely irrelevant.
Is there anything productive you'd like to add?

Skruffs was just trying to say he's metagaming. He was trying to be productive. Y was just taking the literal approach, in fact, my vote on Y was based on meta.

[Capricious]

Interesting how the people under suspicion have disappeared a few days before the activity-based deadline comes into effect.

We need to consider whether we can reach a compromise lynch, and whether that would be better than a no-lynch.

I'm not really seeing the case on Andycyca at the moment, but I would be prepared to switch my vote to Rotten Snitch when deadline hits as a poor substitute for lynching Capriscum.
Capricious is definitely my number one lynch choice though.

Ok, I don't understand a compromise lynch. Are we to compromise with the scum to lynch a vanilla instead of a power role or whatnot?

Or, do you see this as partisan? that one side wants to lynch Andycyca, the other wants to lynch me, so we lynch Rotten Snitch in the middle as a compromise. I don't understand.

[Capricious]

I think RS is pretty scummy at the moment. I especially don't like his responses.

the vagueness is overwhelming =O

Sir T's post there had more content than your "Wagon wagon wagon!" vote post. Just sayin'.

False.

[Capricious]

Caprcious's posts 192-195 are a load of crap. You can't seriously pass that off as the best contribution you can muster, in addition to 194 being full of Craplogic(TM). I'm very confident in you being scum, because if you were town, I feel you would have found other things to comment on besides just what you did. There has been lots of discussion since your previous posts, and

that

is what you comment on?

vote: Capricious

Can someone point me to the case against Andycyca? Because I really don't see it.

Right, I'll admit I have nothing else to comment on. My intellect is too low to understand the Skruffs-Zindaras dispute, and when you erase all those posts, what else is there? RS-Mizzy? That feels to me like exchange between two towns, while Andycyca charges in to take advantage of it.

[Capricious]

My intellect is too low to understand the Skruffs-Zindaras dispute, and when you erase all those posts, what else is there?

You are

not

a moron. If you

must

hide behind the "I'm too stupid to contribute" shield, then for the love of god, don't be intelligent early in the game and

then

spout it? Be stupid the

whole time

.

Fos: Capricious

No, I am being honest. I don't know what to make of all that at all.

[Capricious]

"feel", what more is there?

[Capricious]

"feel" is the best and only basis there is.

[Capricious]

Sir Tornado is in this game?

[Capricious]

Unvote, Vote: Capricious

need a lynch, but come to your senses and lynch Andycyca day 2

[Capricious]

deadline is in 3 hours?

[Capricious]

I am confident RS and Mizzy are town

[Capricious]

Skruffs is also solid town

[Capricious]

Elmo is a good town for defending someone (me) for their vague comment:
"feel is the best and only basis there is" in spite of some lumped together turtles.

[Capricious]

pro-town people are creators, scum play tag-along/ are concluders

[Capricious]

Sure, why not... Why do you think any one would even think about suspecting you due to Capricious' post, when he didn't even mention your name, nor the fact that some one posted something similar to his post already?

It's happened to me before that I post some sort of question or logic or possibility or what-have-you and someone who's been in the limelight in a not-so-good way has used that post of mine to divert attention off of themselves and onto me.

I suppose I wouldn't be so bothered about his "Let's discuss this" if he had actually discussed it soon after without prompting. It came off to me as
insincere.

Like when?

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

However, arriving to a NoLynch could, in fact, help scum in more than one way by moving the game to Night. Now that many players are scanning each other, an auto-night ends discussion, which is good for scum.

@Elmo: About 123: I meant that both {Capri, Y} and {Capri, cow} were discussing against each other and the supposed case on {Capri, Y} being distancing scumbuddies was as good as {Capri, cow} being exactly the same. In other words, the supposed distancing was as good for one pair or the other and was just based on the fact that their opinions weren't the same.

My reasons for voting RS have been discussed and the reason he isn't on my "obv protown list" is because I don't know anything about anyone's alignments.
----------------------------

Andy's unvote worked just fine, I see. And I don't like the wagon on him, by the way...

it's all fluff and no nutter.

Exactly my thoughts
----------------------------

...AND you can't even spell my name right? It's 5 letters! ><

Don't worry, it's common for him to mistype

My username is spelled with 2 "y" istead of 3 "a"

But it's a lot easier for you to type Andy

I'm no longer sure of Andycyca being scum, primarily because of these two posts, as he did create something with these posts. His creations don't have to be correct, they just have to be debatable and can be scrutinized by the town-as evidenced by people calling Andy out for them.

mod

- can you prod Capricious please.

Also, a vote count would be quite nice too...

I am here, it is nice to know that you keep me in your heart when there are others who have posted less than me.

Unvote, Vote: Andycyca

I'm sure he "kept you in his heart" because there's a wagon on you...

Not many scum keep quiet about the subject when people vote them

[Capricious]

Elmo is a good town for defending someone (me) for their vague comment:
"feel is the best and only basis there is" in spite of some lumped together turtles.

Someone is town for defending someone else's vague/strange comment?

This is correct, he voiced his opinion in a position where he could've very well come under fire from a decent portion of the players for stating his opinion.

[Capricious]

hi

[Capricious]

It's more of a I'm confident of my calls that it might actually be beneficial to lynch me to prove I am town kind of thing. Incidentally, I've said I no longer see Andycyca as the best scum.

Town:
Rotten Snitch
Mizzy
Skruffs
Elmo
Andycyca <--- iffy, but meh

Scum:
hascow
Zindaras

Which leaves

eldarad: do you not find me attractive anymore? Prior, you had an unhealthy fetish toward me which you expressed by addressing and serenading me in every post-even going so far as

"The period of time Capri had vanished increased from 2 to 3 days" <-- Seriously WTF?

Have the fires of your love for me cooled and collated into warm coals?

Last time eldarad did this, he was a member of a whole village of idiots, but town nonetheless. His behavior here does fit with the behavior in the other game, so I am unsure on eldarad.

Y: Another suitor for my heart, only he didn't work for it as hard. I am quite unsure about Y because he strikes me as the type who has the same playstyle as town or scum.

Sir Tornado: Grand total of 8 posts in this game, heh, find him more likely as town than scum though.

[Capricious]

Unvote

Mizzy continues to solidify her awesome pro-townness. Her play doesn't make any sense as scum. What she could've done was went with the flow and lynched me. She would have seen how I had already grouped her in as town in my earlier, going away post, so it was wholly good for her, as scum, to lynch the confused town who had labeled her as town. Instead, she sat down and analyzed the situation, to make the best play as town.

[Capricious]

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

unvote, Vote: Mizzy

You can definitely find reasons for early votes. You can't just throw early pages out the window because "it's the random voting stage." If someone doesn't find something out of it, it will never turn into anything useful.

No pro-town presence in this post. Had hascow only pointed out that he believes early pages are useful, it would be a null tell. But he didn't, he used this as an explanation for his vote. I see no reason to change votes to Mizzy just based on this. You can't honestly believe that if Mizzy were scum, she will throw her hands up and surrender on this issue, one that is a debatable one.

It seemed to me like you were saying "Let's not worry about the early pages" when you said:

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

That seems to me to be saying that the early pages don't matter because it's hard to find scum during them. While that may be true, I feel that it's important to get out of the "random voting stage" as early as possible. Saying that it's page 3 and we have no basis to think anyone is scum is, to me, like saying that those pages don't matter very much and we shouldn't pay attention to them. So any misrepresentation of you was simply because that's how I viewed your post.

1st part: antagonizes Mizzy, tries to get town to feel that Mizzy is careless and scummy

2nd part: patches relationship up "simple misunderstanding"

unvote

Capricious, if you want to discuss it, then discuss it. And you definitely can't meta yourself based on that one game. I'm

this

close to voting you right now. I need to see some excellent contribution in order to keep from voting you.

Establishes that hascow is voting based on contribution, not who he feels is scum.

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

Again:

1st part: antagonizes Cap, tries to make town believe that he erred

2nd part: patches relations up

this is false, contrary to popular opinion,

I do not believe

L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes,

I believe

are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

The key here is that you believe that. My feeling is that a wagon shouldn't get to L-2 unless someone is really scummy. You simply believing that the 2nd or 3rd vote is scummier doesn't mean that it's correct.

I didn't vote for you previously because:
a) It would have been L-2
b) I didn't have a good, solid reason to get you to that point

I think that an L-2 vote should have good reasoning behind it, just because of how close it gets someone to a lynch.

theory discussion, null.

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

Since disagreeing/arguing always is distancing

Honesty shines through in this post. Of course, he wasn't distancing himself from me, and he feels righteous to point this out.

POst tomorrow.

I hate it when people do this.

FoS: Zindaras

Purpose for this?

Caprcious's posts 192-195 are a load of crap. You can't seriously pass that off as the best contribution you can muster, in addition to 194 being full of Craplogic(TM). I'm very confident in you being scum, because if you were town, I feel you would have found other things to comment on besides just what you did. There has been lots of discussion since your previous posts, and

that

is what you comment on?

vote: Capricious

Can someone point me to the case against Andycyca? Because I really don't see it.

Easy way to buddy up

"feel" is the best and only basis there is.

what are you talking about?

.

hasdgfas

: I can certainly see why you'd think that he can contribute more than he is/has, but can I ask why that makes you feel okay with lynching him? Seems like a bit of a cop-out lynch. Granted, any lynch is better than no-lynch, but I would seriously prefer going for a lynch and not a mis-lynch. Do you feel Capricious is scum? If not, why are you willing to lynch someone you don't think is scum?

I'm okay with lynching him because from his posts, what I've gathered is that he tries to say as little as possible while seeming to contribute. Let me pull out some examples:

Sir Tornado is in this game?

I am confident RS and Mizzy are town

Skruffs is also solid town

hi

Then there are a bunch of posts that are, to me, full of crap:

Elmo is a good town for defending someone (me) for their vague comment:
"feel is the best and only basis there is" in spite of some lumped together turtles.

Someone is

town

for defending someone else's vague/strange comment?

Unvote, Vote: Capricious

need a lynch, but come to your senses and lynch Andycyca day 2

A self-vote in addition to saying we should lynch Andy day 2, but he doesn't give any reasoning.

"feel", what more is there?

"feel" is the best and only basis there is.

This just makes no sense at all. Sounds like a scum cop-out to giving reasons to me.



So basically: Yes, I feel he's scum. He's been pushing an andycyca lynch without explaining why andy is scum. (A relatively common scum tactic from what I've seen, argument through repetition). Many of his posts have been extremely contentless when he could easily have contributed more in many of his posts. When he does contribute, his logic seems more like scumlogic than townlogic.

vote: Capricious

Yes someone is town for defending another town's vague comment. At the time, it would be putting themselves in the spotlight to be a lawyer to another play, particular when a number of players had already expressed disdain and confusion toward the comment. He was risking having to explain himself for it. Scum prefer to avoid.

Incidentally, hascow's examples of my contributions are nice, I have named several players who I feel are solid town, a bad scum play without me even being prompted to do so. I will argue that the eight words "I am confident RS and Mizzy are town" hold more contribution in them than half of this game.

[Capricious]

Vote:hasdgfas

[Capricious]

Zindaras has done nothing except dispute with Skruffs about meaningless things, and also this post:

So, I kind of think hasdfgas is reaching a bit in 63. I don't think Mizzy's post there says that the early pages are completely useless. Kinda agree with her 67. Andycyca basically repeats hasdfgas in 69. Rotten Snitch's 71 is somewhat odd. I like hasdfgas's 76. I like Mizzy's 78 less. I don't think there is any reason to speculate about things like that at this point, or any point soon, for that matter. Behaviour is still Reason #1 for a lynch. I think both Skruffs's and Sir T's reasons for attacking me are far-fetched to say the least. Capricious's entire play in the first few pages is based purely on going back through old games and pointing out instances were something would or would not be a good decision...ignoring whether or not they are applicable to the current situation. He seems to abandon the approach in 103. Not sure if I like the explanation, currently I'm buying it.

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

this is false, contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes, I believe are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

I actually find this somewhat amusing. Tells are invariably based on popular opinion. I believe jeep posted some theory about how docs and Mafia behaved, purely mathematically. And he was right. Tells are beautiful. But when they get out, they're out, and they don't work anymore. From a pure perspective, however, I would make an exception for some tells, most importantly tells that have to do with voting, simply because the Mafia need to get what they want (dead town) and they have to vote for it. This is especially true in situations where the lynch is close.

But I digress. I love theory too much.

I think the Y-Capricious exchange in 111-117 is odd. In this case, it seems like Y is overanalyzing (though Capricious is doing some silly speculation, in my opinion).

Andycyca's 123 is odd, as pointed out before. Easy talk about distancing. Skruffs's 130 is flat-out worthless. Speculating on why someone was killed is useless. We can't infer anything from it at this point. Rotten Snitch's 135 is actually an example of pure WIFOM. Don't see those often.

I remember Patrick and Ether saying they had promised scum roles to SEVERAL people before roles were actually sent out. I do not think if they were actually legitimately promising roles, they would have said so out loud, but SINCE the topic of the chat at that time WAS about Ether's game, the theme of which would only be noted as that of "werewolves", I think that it is VERY likely that someone may have overheard it, thought nothing of it, and then remembered during Night 0 when they said "Hmm...' and used it as a reason, for the sole point of creating a situation.

I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded.

Why put worthless info in the thread?

Blech, tired, need to skim now.

Y's 162 is odd. "Why is Capricious forgotten?"

Well, why don't you put him in the spotlights? You're not even voting him.

I also really friggin' love the fact that Skruffs basically says I'm scum because I'm always scum and insinuating that he shouldn't be held accountable if I turn up town, because he's trained to kill me.

Yeah, right.

Sir T obviously fails to acknowledge my personality, don't know if it's scum stubbornness or simply town paranoia. Elmo is giving me "cruise"-vibes. He's basically cruising through the game without really saying anything.

I'm going to

Unvote

for now and think more about this tomorrow, where I will hopefully be less tired.

I get from reading this that some people are odd, some people are wrong, Skruffs dumb, some people are right, some people are worthless, Skruffs wrong, some people are useless, Skruffs idiot, et cetera. It seems to me that Zindaras is not hunting scum, rather picking out the finer, minor mistakes in semantics and aggressiveness.

[Capricious]

Ohwait, another day? Man. I thought the one at the top of the page was right.

I irrationally kinda like Capri's move here in 262. I think it's indicative of him being town. I'm also not sure about Andy, and I don't think Skruffs is a good lynch right now. So I'm going with Andy.

Vote: Andycyca

Mod, I would like a little deadline extension, though. Kinda difficult to coordinate here.

This is one of the reasons I took a step back on Andycyca.

[Capricious]

voting for a self-voter, eh elmo? How often do you find them to be scum?

Interesting how he is voting for a self-voter, what could possibly have caused the shift in opinion?

[Capricious]

The plan is to either lynch who I want to lynch, or lynch me and follow this for future guidance:


Town:
Rotten Snitch
Mizzy
Skruffs
Elmo