Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Mizzy]

Pfft, I go do that work thing, come back, and there's activity. Really, the nerve, starting without me!

Vote: Skruffs

because his avatar stole my fingertappies.

[Mizzy]

Add Elmo to the cat mafia list, I've cracked this open!

But wait, wouldn't cats be pro-town in a game where the scummers are canine?

[Mizzy]

Add Elmo to the cat mafia list, I've cracked this open!

But wait, wouldn't cats be pro-town in a game where the scummers are canine?

Great minds think alike.

I like you already.

*high-five*

Elmo will tell you that I have a weakness for all things cute and fluffy, so I can't very well allow kittehs to be targeted, now can I?

[Mizzy]

Last time Capricious tried to get me killed he was scum, so...

Besides, felines (Which are not the same as canines, Capricious) are much better. I think we should have a cat instead of that missing mayor.

The plot thickens! Perhaps the mayor went to buy a cat. <3 Kitties!

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, Elmo, and eldarad:
All three of you are fossing and voting me because of my avatar?
If you are going to try and find a way to badly bandwagon on someone, you should really confer with your buddies and find *DIFFERENT* *REASONS* for it.

Clearly, it's just that noteworthy of an avatar. You should be proud!

But I don't like that a wagon IS forming, especially on a kitteh.

Unvote. Semi-Random Vote: Rotten Snitch

for joining the wagon after it stopped being the cool thing to do.

[Mizzy]

Also:

Vote: Eldarad

Last person on the wagon, I don't think we've ever met so I am wondering why you have a vested interest in an avatar you haven't seen before.

This is also true for me, as I don't believe I have directly met you before. But I am watching you play in a different game, so that's something, I suppose Plus, KITTEH!

[Mizzy]

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

By the way, this made me lol, seriously. I snorted soda.

It was a joke, nothing useful (snip)

This has to be a joke

No shit, sherlock

[Mizzy]

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

unvote, Vote: Mizzy

You can definitely find reasons for early votes. You can't just throw early pages out the window because "it's the random voting stage." If someone doesn't find something out of it, it will never turn into anything useful.

Actually, I didn't say to throw the pages away, now did I? Good job putting words in my mouth so early. I adore random voting stages for the information they give us, but I can't believe that anyone would know that any person is or isn't scum yet. How could they? Just by pure meta, really, and pure meta cases are bullshit when they have so little to go on in this game.

[Mizzy]

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

Just to let you know, this game is based on discussion. The earlier we start, the better. Early scumhunting doesn't mean correct scumhunting, but it certainly is protown.

Unvote. Vote: Mizzy

I'm not saying we shouldn't scumhunt...I'm saying that someone who comes off as so sure of themselves as to who they think is scum already either knows something the rest of us doesn't or are playing on meta-only. Either way, I expect to see logic involved and a case. Not just empty fingerpointing.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy I don't think it is just empty fingerpointing. The game only identifies vanilla townies. We may be correct in assuming that there is a cop, seer, or investigator who was able to get a read on someone Night-0. Although right now it may seem like empty accusations but I'm sure there could be truth behind one of them.

Just a thought.

Since when did we start speculating power roles? I'm saying that someone who says "Person x is scum" now without a case, not even with a well-presented meta case, is jumping the gun. I'm talking alignment, and not role.

[Mizzy]

Let me make my point a bit clearer. I do see your point about there being a chance of them actually knowing due to some sort of night action. However, just out and saying, "I think so-and-so is scum" without actually presenting any evidence or case doesn't really do anything. We have no way of knowing whether or not they are a power role who found valid info or if they are scum hoping to kill a townie right off the bat.

I also find it scummy that people are putting words into my mouth, assuming I'm expressing opinions that I am not, and putting pressure votes on me for questioning someone's highly-questionable post. I think they are, as it was said, just scumhunting, but that doesn't mean I have to find their approach effective or un-scummy.

So, I'm going to ask nicely...if you're trying to get a read on me or pressure me, that's fine, that is good scumhunting and I will gladly respond to any questions or comments you might have, but please don't misrepresent me.

[Mizzy]

It seemed to me like you were saying "Let's not worry about the early pages" when you said:

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

That seems to me to be saying that the early pages don't matter because it's hard to find scum during them. While that may be true, I feel that it's important to get out of the "random voting stage" as early as possible. Saying that it's page 3 and we have no basis to think anyone is scum is, to me, like saying that those pages don't matter very much and we shouldn't pay attention to them. So any misrepresentation of you was simply because that's how I viewed your post.

No no no, that's not what I meant at all. Sorry if it came off that way. What I meant was, "How can anyone be so sure yet? Let's see some proof!" No pages in a game should ever be discounted.

[Mizzy]

I'm confused also by your "The game only identifies vanilla townies."... that strikes me as wrong, because Strappado was not a vanilla townie.

Secondarily, if the scum were allowed to kill n0, then the investigative roles were allowed to target as well.

I'd like to introduce some meta into the game regarding strappado, me, rotten snitch, zindaras, and others. I don't have to but it might be worth stimulating discussion with.

Firstly, I'd like to see some of the meta information but for discussion purposes. I hope we won't try making a case out of pure meta, but I think meta here might be helpful.

Also, I have a thought on N1 actions. It was pointed out by a couple of people that N1 night actions might have happened. We did get a N1 kill, so obviously someone was allowed to do SOMETHING. However, re-reading the background text:

"Once we disposed of them all, another brilliant man--her grandfather, incidentally--

thought to plant wolfsbane all over the village. And the smell has kept the wolves out...for good."

I kind of came into this thinking that scum are werewolves based on the flavor text, but I have to wonder now if I was wrong in that assumption. I see no reason that wolfsbane would suddenly stop working, so if the scum ARE wolves, then how could they get into town to kill?

It kind of makes me remember the movie The Village where the "monsters" were actually people.

Thoughts, please? This is the first game like this (a really detailed theme game) I've played and I have no idea how much to read into the flavor text and I don't want my imagination running off with me.

[Mizzy]

But, neither Ether nor Sacred are playing in this game, are they? Or do you buddy up with Mizzy in all of your games too?

iu

He and I haven't had the pleasure of playing together before now, actually.

[Mizzy]

EBWOP:

But, neither Ether nor Sacred are playing in this game, are they? Or do you buddy up with Mizzy in all of your games too?

iu

He and I haven't had the pleasure of playing together before now, actually.

Sorry, kitten sat on my keyboard.

[Mizzy]

Elmo, buddying up is generally a scum tell. If someone is overtly hostile, he is more probable to be under intense scrutiny or get lynched on D1, get inv N1, and is less likely to be followed. (yes, you can deny all you want, but it's true).

I've seen lots of townies buddy up, too, though. Quite a bit, actually. So wouldn't that make it a null-tell?

[Mizzy]

Firstly,

FoS: Capricious

for what I feel is attempting to direct attention on to my post, and therefor me, in what I think might have been trying to get everyone off his back. Saying he wants to discuss X without actually saying anything about X at that time bothers me. Plus, this whole Y <--> Capri conversation looks like Capri is trying to smokescreen a good bit.

Capricious:

You're convinced that the scum are, in fact, werewolves. Okay, but

why

are you so convinced?

[Mizzy]

FoS Mizzy

for not making much sense (Except the last question).

Could you phrase the accusation in the form of a question, please?

[Mizzy]

Sure, why not... Why do you think any one would even think about suspecting you due to Capricious' post, when he didn't even mention your name, nor the fact that some one posted something similar to his post already?

It's happened to me before that I post some sort of question or logic or possibility or what-have-you and someone who's been in the limelight in a not-so-good way has used that post of mine to divert attention off of themselves and onto me.

I suppose I wouldn't be so bothered about his "Let's discuss this" if he had actually discussed it soon after without prompting. It came off to me as insincere.

[Mizzy]

Like when?

Seriously, I don't see where Capri connects you, and the divergence of opinions between Capri and Y looks like distancing as much as the Capri/Cow pair.

I'm not sure what when you're asking about. I also don't see the two exchanges as distancing, either. Just my opinion, but there you have it.

[Mizzy]

It's happened to me before that I post some sort of question or logic or possibility or what-have-you and someone who's been in the limelight in a not-so-good way has used that post of mine to divert attention off of themselves and onto me.

1. He wasn't on the "limelight".
2. He asked for a discussion, not referred to your post and asked for a discussion.

1. He had 3 votes on him that I believe were no longer random. I think that's pretty close to limelight at this point in the game.
2. Capri's post #104 quotes my post and says he wants to discuss it...but then doesn't without prompting.

[Mizzy]

I was waiting for a response to Skruffs also, but RS didn't really touch on anything I feel is helpful, so here's some food for thought:

We don't know HOW strappado was killed (shot vs ate) so that doesn't help.

That was a point I was trying to make before, but I think it got lost in my wording. I also think we've gleaned just about as much information from strappado's death as we are going to for the moment; we don't have a lot to go on there other than what the flavor and death text tells us.

The meta was that when the game was still in signups, ether (the mod) asked me about the two n00bs, rotten snitch and strappado, who i know in real life. At least one player in this game right now was in the chatroom when i 'validated' rotten snitch and strappado (This was before roles were assigned and in public) as competent players who I know and who know each other - so one of them dying could be a red herring to get me to attack R.S. or vice versa. I'm not going to use it as such, but that's the 'meta' information I wa sreferring to.

Also I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras, but that's beside the point. >.>

I also feel that while meta can be helpful in a game, right now it's holding us back. This is more information about the outside workings of putting the game together than I wanted to know. None of it helps us and all it might do is cause problems later down the road when trying to find links between players and evidence.

I really don't like that afterthought in there of, "I saw patrick and ether promise a scum role to zindaras" because of how much crap it has the potential to create. That's like sticking a target to his back.

While I like seeing your ponderings on what we might be/have in the game, I don't see it as particularly helpful for the moment, and the rest of your post came off (to me, at least) like WIFOM waiting to happen. Putting pre-conceived notions in the town's heads about the possible alignment of players due to what happened before the game started that most of us didn't see and weren't there for is counterproductive.

As for RS, I feel like he's trying to distance himself from Skruffs, probably because of the meta info Skruffs brought up (see how unhelpful that was?) and it's already causing reactions where there might not otherwise have been. Some folks might say that's good, but I say it's completely fluff-content and does not help us scumhunt; it can only get in the way.

I also feel like RS is trying to create doubt in Skruffs where, again, he might not have otherwise and I think he's trying to vindicate himself (overly much) by casting Skruffs in the questioning light that he is.

[Mizzy]

Is it? I thought it was a joke and didn't give it a second thought.

I didn't; I saw it as an, "Oh, btw, he might be scum because I saw the mod promise him a scum role...but don't pay attention to me because I put an emote at the end!" kind of thing. Fluff at best and subtle hinting at worst. I really didn't like it.

Well, you started it with post 78:

No, I meant the meta information. Not the game theme theory.

Mizzy, I don't really know where you stand after your last post. You said that it looks like Rotten Snitch is distancing himself from Skruffs. That suggests you think they are both scum, right?
Do you have any reason for thinking that, other than the Skruff's meta that you have just said could be misleading?

Scum aren't the only ones who distance themselves from each other and you are experienced enough to know that. I already explained what kind of distancing I think they are doing (Skruffs and RS know each other IRL and RS seemed to be distancing himself because of that.) I have no reason to think that either is scum at the moment, and I don't actively suspect either (or I'd have darn well FoSed them.) Don't assume things. Just ask me.

For my part, I think Mizzy has been rather hypocritical attacking Skruffs for talking about the flavour and the possible identity of the scum in relation to the town. I also think the point about the Zindaras joke is spurious.

I'm attacking him for useless meta, not for flavor analysis.

[Mizzy]

@Rotten Snitch:

The reason I feel your post responding to Skruffs was distancing was because of the over-defensive tones that your post seemed full of. I didn't say it was a bad form of distancing, but it really came off to me like you were trying to put space between him and you because he brought up knowing you IRL. Even now, you seem very defensive of this, even though I haven't accused you of anything.

Which is why I asked him how he meant his "That's Unfortunate" comment. Anyone could have caught that.

I'll wait to judge until I see an answer from Skruffs, but yes, I did see that, and I didn't think it was anything to bother with. It IS unfortunate...strappado was a player character who never got to play in the game. That kinda sucks.

"Vindicate himself (overly much)".....Why would I have any reason to overly vindicate myself? I have done nothing wrong to suggest it.

That's just it, you haven't done anything to warrant that kind of reaction...but I felt you were giving that type of reaction, never-the-less.

If I was distancing myself I'd have FoS'd him or voted.

That's circular logic and I'd rather if we kept away from it. It proves nothing either way.

[Mizzy]

Rotten Snitch:

I'm considering putting you at -1L because of your last two posts. Here's why:

1) Attacking someone else is not a defense for your own actions.
2) Continuously muddying the water with more WIFOM and attempting to justify doing so by saying 50% of the game is WIFOM.
3) Using slightly sarcastic questions instead of a defense for yourself.
4) Not reading (Andy gave reasons he voted you, if you had looked...so why do you keep asking for some?)
5) Continuously going back to what Skruffs said about the death of the Gaoler (we have no idea what alignment the Gaoler was as far as I know and so anything Skruffs said cannot be and never can be proven as being pro- or anti-town.)

I don't like that you keep being overly-defensive against anyone who so much as looks at you and I really don't like the fact that you keep bringing up a comment Skruffs made that doesn't make one bit of difference no matter what way he meant it. I don't feel that you are even remotely trying to scumhunt.

[Mizzy]

I'm bitching L-2 because it was a rash move for little reasons

1. "I'm a newbie, that's why I don't contribute a lot"
2. "Why would I..." Stinks of WIFOM

Is that really reason for L-2?
Or Mizzy is that really reason for L-1?

So early in the game to jump on me when I have not said anything clearly scummy.

I understand I am still random voting me and I'll take that off when I am ready to vote but it was interesting to see how high I got huh?

BTW Mizzy your L-1 comment.. you are already voting me.

Yes, I feel that putting you at -2L is not really that dangerous and that combined with all my reasoning is legitimate reason for putting you at -1L if you can't defend yourself.

Thanks for pointing out the vote mistake on my part, I thought I had just FoSed you. I'm still pretty content with my vote.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy- I do not think you are really reading the posts
You corrected yourself and said you would put me at L-1 for your reasons.

No, I said I was

considering

putting you at -1L, but I can't anyway, so it's a moot point. I'm happy with my vote where it is; on you.

<My initial actions were responding to Skruffs. I didn't attack you because you were already randomly voting me and we were discussing I attacked Andycyca because of a weak vote and his slandering my play style>

I didn't say you attacked me; I didn't actually mention anyone specifically. My point was that instead of giving a good, solid defense, you seem to choose to attack, instead. And poorly, at that.

<Andycyca's vote on me was for WIFOM. I said WIFOM is half of the game and it does not justify a clear scum tell because everyone at some point does it>

He wasn't saying it was a scumtell, he said it was

one

of the reasons he was voting you, and it's a reason I agree with. Adding more WIFOM to the game muddies things and is, in most case, an anti-town action.

<There was nothing to defend. I was attacking his putting me on L-2. As I have seen so far sarcasm is not a scummy thing either>

No, but avoiding providing a defense can be seen as scummy. And yes, there is a good bit of a case against you. You should stop trying to pretend there's not one.

<Andycyca's reasons for putting me on L-2 were not justified. Newbie? WIFOM?
Maybe a reason to cast a vote earlier but not when there is already a bandwagon on me. As far as not reading- you misread your own comments and votes. I think this looked bad because you were willing to put me at L-1 for what? Sarcasm? Not reading? WIFOM? Bringing up a point that I think is important? I really think this is going a little too far>

I disagree; I feel they were justified enough for reasons to put you at -2L. -2L isn't really that dangerous and I feel you're blowing it all out of proportion. I said I was CONSIDERING putting you at -1L (if I could) because of the reasons I listed earlier. Add to them an overly-defensive tone of voice and a touch of paranoia and that's an even stronger case against you.

It would be a really good idea to not put words in other people's mouths and stop misinterpreting them so much. It makes you look scummier.

<I only continuously defended my Skruffs point because you kept attacking it. I made my point and dropped it. I will however defend my opinion that subtle hints sometimes will call someone out or catch them off guard later. Also we can assume the Gaoler was good because she was killed at night (I dont think if there was a 1 shot vig they would randomly use it the first night)>

Skruffs can defend his own points if he damned well wants to. He doesn't need you defending what he says, nor does he need you attacking what he says in the same breath. Come to think of it, this whole paragraph of yours contradicts your prior actions. You were "calling out" Skruff's comment because you thought it was questionable and now you say you're defending it? Make up your mind.

I personally think that Andycyca is using weak accusations to jump on my bandwagon. I think this is scummy. He has not given reason enough for a vote. And now that Mizzy has accused me it will be easy for him to agree on his actions.

That's an opinion you have a right to have, but I don't agree with you. And actually, I accused you long before Andy did.

[Mizzy]

@Rotten Snitch:

I don't mind if it goes back and forth, and I'll address anything you want me to. And probably some things you don't want me to.

All I am saying on the WIFOM issue is that everyone at some point in the game is guilty of it. To vote me like that is ridiculous.

That's like saying, "Everyone plays scum at some point so voting someone because they're scummy is ridiculous." Just because everyone does something, it doesn't make it okay.

WIFOM, when purposely added to a game, muddies the waters for the town (and I mentioned that already) which makes it harder for town to properly scumhunt. That act is, whether or not it's meant to be, anti-town. Hence why excess WIFOM is worthy of suspicion, votes, etc.

You say that “by avoiding providing a defense” can be seen as scummy but then in the next comment you say that my overly defensive tone and paranoia makes a strong case. So what is it? Defensive or avoiding defense what am I doing?
Paranoia? No, I just thought it was odd from the reaction I received for bringing up a point I thought was valid.
I still think this pressure is odd.

See, you're definitely not paying attention. I said that you are avoiding defending your own actions and are instead replacing a defense by using leading and often misrepresenting questions. It also comes off to me (though this could just be my interpretation) that you are simultaneously defending and attacking Skruffs. You're confusing two completely separate points of my case against you, and I can't tell if it's on purpose or not.

I'm not pressuring you (you already have my vote, what more can I do?) but I am expecting to see some real answers to the following questions:

1) Why won't you present valid reasoning and defensive cases for your actions when asked?
2) Why do you continue questioning a statement that Skruffs made that is not provable as pro- or anti-town and probably can never be?
3) Are you actually going to bother scumhunting any time soon?

Putting words in your mouth? No I have been very good about making sure I stated and corrected your own vote on me. I said that you corrected yourself many times.

By putting words in my mouth, I mean that you are asking leading questions as opposed to answering questions and case points I present that are a total stretch. I told you why I think you're scum, and yet you keep asking why with leading, and often misrepresenting, questions. I corrected myself once, by the way, and that's not what I'm referring to at all.

I said I defended my point on Skruffs possibly dropping a subtle hint and I said I was defending my opinion. I was not calling out his definition of Gaoler I was calling out his tone when he said it was unfortunate. And again I never defended him against my own attack. You are putting words in my mouth now.

The thing is, the only way you could know whether or not the "subtle hint" was anything noteworthy is if you are scum.

The fact that you keep wondering why he made that comment when it doesn't help town or not in the least bothers me. We have no idea what alignment the Gaoler was (please correct me if I am wrong) but if we don't know what his alignment was, then how are we EVER going to know until the game ends? It's a dead end. Drop it and move on.

What I meant by my last comment was that I asked Andycyca for a little more detail in the reason he voted me. He has not given it yet but now if he does he will not have to use his own words to answer me. He can copy your argument against me.

What, you'd actually let someone use a cop out to get out of answering a question? Yes, he COULD use my arguments to answer you, but the fact is that he already answered you in the post he voted in. He gave you two good reasons that I feel are correct and justified. I'm agreeing with him, really, not the other way around.

[Mizzy]

If you say something that you don't know is WIFOM and you state it, then other people can point it out. But if you throw in something purposefully, it ends up confusing the townies in a way that is similar to what mafia are trying to do. Simply, don't do that as a townie. If you do, it can be very scummy.

This is very well-put and that's what I have been trying to say. WIFOM is sometimes unavoidable, but you should try and avoid it if at all possible. Pro-towners need to be able to scumhunt effectively, and the mafia's job is to muddy the waters to make scumhunting harder. It's a psychological tug of war.

I'd like my scumhunting waters to be as unmuddied as much as possible and when I see someone actively adding WIFOM to the game, I WILL call them on it. There is no justification for knowingly muddying the waters.

Now that I've worn out that metaphor utterly and completely, I shall shush until there is something more to say,

[Mizzy]

RS:

I do see a lot of your logic, actually, I just think it's not good enough in most cases.

Your whole Skruffs thing, I just don’t understand your logic
Let me make it easier by explaining my thoughts
-sometimes criminals will leave behind clues to lure the police. I feel as though the same applies to mafia, some people get a kick out of dropping subtle hints early in the game
-that was where I was going with Skruffs “That’s Unfortunate” comment.
Skruffs also wanted everyone to meta- when this didn’t bring up our history and no one stumbled on this-he brought it up himself- It seemed as though he wanted everyone to see this for a reason
-I wanted to know why?- and he responded with “I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded”
-I thought this was going a little too far to simply mention and discard something-

Yes, I realize the fact that criminals leave behind clues, but even if this IS a clue, is is one that we will

never be able to interpret

. It doesn't help us. It's a distraction. We will only ever know whether the clue shows Skruffs as pro-town or anti-town when he is either dead or the game ends, neither of which give us anymore info than what we will already have.

Real answers to the following questions:
1. I think I have presented plenty of valid reasoning and defense for my actions. Considering you are really the only one who has actively pursued me. Andycya did not actually give IMO valid reasons for his vote. Being a newbie is a random stage reason for a vote not a page 6 vote.

2. Why do I continue on the Skruffs thing… because you keep countering me on it.. I see it as a valid observation on my point- agree or disagree and move on-

3. Yes I think I am actively scum hunting. I have my FoS on IMO somewhat scummy behavior on Andycyca. He had enough time to quickly vote me and insult my game play instead of explaining himself to me so I understood his motive.

1. I'm not agreeing with you there...most of your defense of yourself has been exactly what Andy said it was, WIFOM and noob-cover. Neither of those are viable.

2. So basically, I keep saying that the Skruffs comment is a null-tell and you keep arguing that it's not but have no proof? How is that helpful to anyone?

3. I just don't see that Andy's action was scummy or suspect. He gave two valid reasons for voting you and then voted you. I won't answer for Andy, because I can't really and also because he already did before this (he posted not long ago) so I suggest you look there.

[Mizzy]

Eh, yeah, I do tend to get all self-righteous when I find something I think is scummy. I don't mean to be distracting...I'll back off a bit to let other dialog through but I still think RS is more anti- than pro-town at the moment.

[Mizzy]

Unvote

:

Rotten Snitch

,

vote

:

Andycya

wagon wagon wagon

Wow, this feels a bit out of character for you.

[Mizzy]

I think RS is pretty scummy at the moment. I especially don't like his responses.

the vagueness is overwhelming =O

Sir T's post there had more content than your "Wagon wagon wagon!" vote post. Just sayin'.

[Mizzy]

I"d be fine with quicklynching Zindaras. He's soooo scum, it makes my pores itch just reading his name on on the screen, and it's going to be hard for me to get over that huge glaring black spot on my scumdar while he's still alive.

Was this sarcasm?

[Mizzy]

Not really. Me and Zindaras have a history, a history in which he wwas factually scum every time but one. So I am trained to be suspicious of him now. I'm still posting out side of that suspicion, but as the number of players dwindle, the more likely i will be to push for his lynch.

Well, I am happy that you're being honest about it, but I do hope you'll show a good case if you expect the rest of us to believe you about his scumminess...I haven't really seen anything in this game as of yet to make me wonder about him.

I'm still happy with my vote, especially since RS has disappeared. Capri is also still on my list for scummy-enough-to-lynch, but I don't want to rush things and would

love

to see more from both of them.

[Mizzy]

Oh for heaven's sake, this is why I hate meta. It's clouding a perfectly good game, and no matter how you look at it, clouding the game is only good for scum.

FoS: Skruffs

for not leaving past grudges behind back in the games they belong in, drawing focus away from the two scum candidates, and being tunnel-visioned. Zindaras' role/alignment in other games has absolutely no baring on his role/alignment in this one. Get past it.

Capricious:

What the hell were those beanpoles you tried to pass off as posts/content? There's a case against you and you're on the lynchlist of at least two people, and that's ALL you can muster? Eesh. And by the way, your opinion that my opinion is false is bullshit.

[Mizzy]

okay, but if you actually looked at my post you would see:

So,

regardless of the fact that you have been scum recently, my actual basis for suspicion on you is on your play in this game

. If you tend to start bad bandwagons as town in other games, give me an example or two. But if you want me to just say "Oh it's zindaras, yay, so happy to see you" then you can forget it, I've been burned and I'm not giving you any benefits until I have a good reason to; a reason, through your actions this game, that you are not giving me.

Mizzy just took Zindaras's "Skruffs says I'm scum because I'm always scum" quote and ran with it, and ignored everything else I said. I think that's called strawmanning, right?

Heh, good try, but I DID read that and find it to be complete and utter crap. Show me a nicely laid out case against him from this game and I'd be glad to listen. So far all I see you two doing is arguing semantics and meta.

And if you want me to drop the meta, why didn't you scold Zindaras for:
"Sir T obviously fails to acknowledge my personality, don't know if it's scum stubbornness or simply town paranoia."

Because I don't scold adults. I just call the shots as I see them. Honestly, I have been complaining about the meta crap in general, but (and I realize this is a bit hypocritical, trust me) personality is important to games to me, too. I play the same way in all my games, and when you play with certain players who have a very bold personality, it's important to keep that in mind.

This is why I said he is playing like a superstar: He's tried to use his *undescribed* personality as a reason to change people's opinions at least twice so far this game; and I don't like that. And I really don't like how you are being two faced about this, MIzzy.

I don't really find what he's done as scummy...it's just my opinion. What I find scummy is your quip earlier about, "Ooh, he was promised a scum role" followed by this "I don't trust him because he's always scum."

I don't mind listening to legitimate cases against people, I really don't. I can see why you don't like his "personality" defense, but that one thing isn't nearly enough for me to do anything than

IGMEOY: Zin

, whereas your "superstar" play leads me to want to vote for you. (I'm not voting for you yet because I don't like flipflopping votes and I want to see some more from RS before I unvote him.)

Rotten:

Wb and I hope things are okay with you IRL. My vote is still currently on you but I'll be watching how you post very closely and if I see a change in your over-defensiveness, I will consider unvoting post haste. I also want to see your thoughts on Skruff's meta-posts and on all the smoke-and-mirror play that has been done to pull attention off of you and Capricious.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy:
You are saying that I am using Smoke and Mirrors to pull attention from two other players; which begs the question: Why are you so deadset in having one of only two people lynched today and so against explorations into other venues? Do you have a vested interest in other players NOT being investigated/criticized?

Now you're just putting connotations into my words that aren't there.

We have two players who seem to be in the top scum-candidate lists of most people (looking at the voting and FoSing and what not) and we've been waiting for them to come back from lurking. I'm not talking about lynching either one of them, unlike some others have been. I just want to make sure they are not allowed to slink off into a corner when they have things to answer for because you can't keep the spotlight off yourself.

I'm happy, as I said, to look at cases on other players, if you bother to show me something that's not bullshit.

What are you saying here? That I'm not an adult? That Zindaras isn't trying to coerce Sir T to meta him? That Zindaras *is* using a meta to clear himself, and that's okay, but it's not okay for me to bring meta in as part of my reasons for suspicions of him? You realize I am analysing Zindaras's personality as town or as scum, as the basis for the perceived meta, right?

No, I'm saying that I didn't "scold" you for anything; and I don't intend to "scold" anyone. I'm calling out scummy behavior when I see it, which it not really the same thing.

How else do you fight meta-based cases? You fight fire with fire, meta with meta. I'd highly prefer it if everyone, INCLUDING Zin, dropped the meta bullshit and play this game, in the here-and-now. I've said that before.

Also: The "Give me a well thought out case" means nothing to me and is usually a scum tell: you are putting the basis of whether something is a good case solely to be judged by your own discretion, and you are saying in the above post that your discretion is based on a player-by-player basis.

Okay, now this is just laughable. Asking you to present a solid case is a

scumtell

? What orifice did you pull THAT from?

I don't expect cases to be 100% in line with my own line of thinking; I'm asking you to present a case against a player you think is scummy that isn't based on bullshit and meta, and hopefully has more than 1 case-point in it. I'm judging whether or not the case is a good one not just on my own opinions but on the opinions of others, too, and the CONTENT of that case. I also think that everyone else would agree with me that a 1-point case based on meta-warring is not a good reason to do anything but eye Zin, which I have already done and intend to do.

I'm not asking you to scumhunt for me even remotely. I am, and others are, already scumhunting; you want us (not JUST me) to switch our focus onto someone you think you have found?

Show us why we should.

That's all I'm asking.

[Mizzy]

I am working with the information I have: This game is not giving me enough so I am pulling in outside information to be discussed and used or ignored, and everything I am saying *is* based on the game, but like Mizzy and Zindaras, you are ignoring the parts that actually have to deal with this game, and focussing on the Deliciously Easy Scapegoat of Using Metas.

You pull in outside information, we discuss it, and then ignore it because of how irrelevant and bad it is. You offer 1 case-point that has anything to do with THIS game, I discuss it with you and discard it because of how flimsy it is.

Yes, indeed, you are

such

the oppressed pro-towner. No one

ever

listens to you (even though we do) and we're all just jumping on you because it's

convenient

(even though there's already two other active wagons) and I'm

clearly

scum because I disagree with you.

Unvote. Vote: Skruffs

[Mizzy]

My intellect is too low to understand the Skruffs-Zindaras dispute, and when you erase all those posts, what else is there?

You are

not

a moron. If you

must

hide behind the "I'm too stupid to contribute" shield, then for the love of god, don't be intelligent early in the game and

then

spout it? Be stupid the

whole time

.

Fos: Capricious

[Mizzy]

No, I am being honest. I don't know what to make of all that at all.

Oh. Well, honestly, it doesn't mean anything. To me, anyway. It's all bullcrap WIFOM meta to me.

[Mizzy]

"feel" is the best and only basis there is.

what are you talking about?

Seconded. What the hell is that all about?

[Mizzy]

Why's Elmo getting all do-it-yerself with the bark when he could have just asked me for my projector? Suspicious, I tell you.

Andy's unvote worked just fine, I see. And I don't like the wagon on him, by the way...it's all fluff and no nutter.

[Mizzy]

Anyone who's NOT voting and DOESN'T post in the next fourteen hours is scum trying to push a nolynch.

...

While I don't like the idea of people not posting and not voting one bit, I also don't like this post. It's circular logic at its worst and completely unprovable.

[Mizzy]

It's absolutely NOT circular logic, Mizzy, and I think you are throwing that word around because you've seen other people do it.

1 scum like no-lynches and
2 participation keeps no-lynch from happening...
3 so, all non-participants must be scum becase
4 Goto line 1

This is logic, and it's NOT circular. If you want to debate how no - lynching is good for the town, the stage is all yours, mizzy.

(Incidentally, Mizzy's scumbuddy zindaras is not voting).

Might I point out that there are likely 3 scummers (25% of the players are usually scum in minis, yes?) and we have 3 people not voting (one of which is not me.) Therefor, according to YOUR LOGIC, Skruffs, because I am posting and voting, I cannot be scum.

[Mizzy]

Just considering things here:
If there is a scum group of some sort, and only one (as compared to an individual or multiple smaller partners) then there are probably 3 of those scum.That meansa that out of 11 players, if scum decides to not post after deadline, 6 out of 8 of the town players HAVE to post EVRY 24 HOUR cycle to contin discussion.
Considering we only have TWO WEEKS per day cycle, the current deadline cycle HEAVILY FAVORS no lynching if as many as 3 protown players are even SLIGHTLY inactive at any point during the game after the first two weeks of the game are up. Defending inactiveness therefore helps scum more.

Unvote, Vote Myzzy

What the shit is this? OMGUS vote AND you can't even spell my name right? It's 5 letters! ><

[Mizzy]

There are only two players who both haven't posted and aren't voting, not three. Sorry, you lose. I also did not say that scum could ONLY be not-voting and not-contributing, merely that scum WOULD do that if they could. Hopefully, having called that out, town AND scum will both be forced to post more in the fear that if they don't they will get in trouble. All of this seems to go past you, though, even though you claim to not like non-postings and non-voters either.

So, basically, you have zero case on me, and you're voting me because I think (and proved) your logic is circular?

I agree with you (as I already said) that non-participation is anti-town. But making a blanket statement like that is bullshit and deserves to be called out. You have NO REASON to be voting me.

[Mizzy]

You didn't prove anything; You used circular reasoning to try and say I was circular reasoning.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. I took the logic you provided and showed how it was circular. I didn't use any of my own other than sarcasm, which shouldn't even be considered.

If you want to say that it's circular reasoning, fine, but anyone could take ANY scum tell as a course of circular reasoning, which makes scum hunting (in your eyes) completely useless anyways!

It is true that I don't agree with the use of many of the "scumtells" that most people claim are near bullet-proof on this site. They ARE mostly circular and unprovable logic that nearly always lead town the wrong way.

However, the second part of this statement (saying it makes scumhunting in my eyes useless) is complete and utter bullshit. Scumhunting is not (and should never be) done solely with the use of "scumtells." Scumtells are one of the tools we can use, yes, but they are often flawed and cause at least as many mislynches as they do scum-lynches.

What I said was that people who avoid posting in the next 12 hours and are not voting, ARE SCUM. You have agreed, if not that forcing a no-lynch is scummy, that you at least don't 'like' inactivity. You yourself are posting AND voting. You then tried to use some sort of inverse of what I said to try and clear yourself, which is blatantly ridiculous; you seem to have a vested interest in making sure Zindaras is protected, and you are using increasingly drastic measures to stifle attempts to incriminate him. Unless you are a cop with an innocent on him, are masons with him, or are SCUM with him, or are scum trying to incriminate him, you have no reason to go that far to protect him, and even then, only the fourth option winds up helping *you* to any degree.

Okay, let's take this one sentence at a time.

Firstly, you have zero way to prove that anyone who doesn't post and isn't voting in the next 12 hours are scum. Not posting and not voting is anti-town, but as I'm sure you are aware, anti-town is NOT the same as scum.

Secondly, I don't have anything to clear myself of because you have yet to provide a valid case against me. My "trying to clear myself" was me making fun of you.

Where do I show a blatant interest in protecting

anyone

? Your imaginary scumtells don't count.

Also: And I looked through your posts. You started off the game by following Zindaras on to me. Then you hopped onto Rotten Snitch, the first bandwagon. Until post 6, you do absolutely no scum hunting at all, you talk about fuzzy kittens in more posts than you talk about the game, and you use fuzzy kittens as our reason for voting me in the first place (presumably, seems kind of forced reasoning to me).

What, my random vote based on your avatar? Don't make me laugh at you anymore than I already am, please; you might make my baby fall out prematurely. I'd also like to mention that I didn't hop on a Rotten Snitch bandwagon...I was THE FIRST VOTE ON HIM (post 43.) There WAS no wagon.

Get your facts straight.

At post 6 you start trying to get people to stop scumhunting by saying 'it's only page three' - and by saying nobody can think anyone is scum yet. That was in regards to Sir Tornado saying Zindaras was scum

for buddying up to you

.

You're putting connotations on my posts that don't exist and stop misrepresenting my posts. I never said not to scumhunt, I said that I didn't think that anyone had any basis to anyone was scum,

yet

. Yet implies further action looking for basis to think someone is scum at a later time, which is not where NEAR trying to end scumhunting.

Zindaras corrects you with correct townie thinking, (which you don't acknowledge), but in your next post you both backtrack and push your case, by saying that random voting is great, even though you said previously that it couldn't have led to anything substantial, which suggests to me you think it's great

because

you don't think it can lead to good scum hunting?

Quote, please. I'd

love

to see where I said random voting doesn't lead to anything substantial.

You then go on to say that NOBODY could know anyone is scum or not yet, which is directly rebutting Sir Tornado's case against Zindaras without actually addressing the information specifically; not only are you rebuffing it, you don't seem at all interested in the information that leads Sir T to that conclusion - so the idea of Zindaras buddying up to you (as I read your post) is not a concern to you at ALL. The only way, again, that you can know he's not scum is if he's in your scum group, or not in your scum group, or if you are masons, etc. You deride Sir T's case as pure meta, but in retrospect you haven't looked at Zindaras at all.

Bullshit left, right, and sideways. I said, "I can't believe that anyone would

know

that any person is or isn't scum yet" where the word know is key. And no, I'm NOT interested in bullshit meta. I've said that. And no, his buddying up to me never was and never will be a concern to me. Buddying up is shown to be as town-tell-ish as it is scum-tell-ish. I learned THAT my first newbie game. As for not having looked at Zindaras, I have looked at his play

in this game

and don't see it as scummy. I'm NOT going to meta him.

In your next post you inform the rest of the game that you expect to see, instead of random finger pointing (which you said in a previous post that you love) case and logic, again, in regards to Sir Tornado's case against Zindaras. You repeat that Sir T's case is pure meta; again, but until this point the only scum hunting you have done is dismissing other player's scum hunting while bemoaning the 'loss' of the self-proclaimed frivolous random stage. Or in short:

You don't want to leave random stage, and if the town leaves it, you expect them to jump immediately into sound cases, and you don't want to do it yourself.

I was referencing, in that post, wanting to see a real case for a real vote. Random votes don't need real cases, because they are random. However, if someone starts to really point at someone, not randomly, I OF COURSE want to see a case, and so should everyone else.

As for not doing any scumhunting? I'm not even going to dignify that kettle-pot jab with a real response.

This is Primo-scumtalk; as someone who is scum you have the luxury of dismissing 'bad cases' because you *know* whether it is based in fact or not; because of that you have a great opportunity to look pro-town without actually sticking your neck out, I did the exact same thing in a newbie game once which is why I'm picking up on it.

Yes, because the idea of mislynching a townie because some dumbasss wagoned on them with no case and no evidence is

so very

pro-town.

No, I think that itself is pretty good reason: You have deflected several lines of inquiry against Zindaras by multiple players, you do NOT seem to be all that interested in scum hunting yourself AND you have a 'standard' you expect from other players which alows you to ignore wagons/suspicions that aren't 'logical' enough, when the only people who DO have logical, fact based argumetns ARE power roles AND scum. I think you are scum.

Direct quotes or post numbers, please, or shut up.

And would you STOP speculating on power roles? Rolefishing is not appreciated.

[Mizzy]

Incidentally: My belief that you are scum is the ONLY REASON *I* need to be voting you, Mizzy, and until you give me a solid, logical case as to why you

aren't

scum, all the fussing in the world is not going to change that belief.

Also: you're a pottymouth.

How can I prove I'm not scum to you when your entire case is based on misrepresented facts, made-up stuff and assumptions other than to point out your mistakes?

[Mizzy]

Wow, nice posting guys! *cheers*

Okay, anyway, it doesn't look like I have anything more to respond to but I might have missed something. Does anyone have any unanswered questions for me?

[Mizzy]

It really feels like our accusations/focus are/is all over the place and we're having a lot of trouble agreeing on anything. This is just my opinion, but I do think we need to work together instead of having everyone kind of pointing fingers in different directions.

Several people have said they see certain folks as obvtown...but I don't see a lot of explanation as to why, and that makes me kind of suspicious. That feels more like townhunting than scumhunting, but again, just my opinion and I could be incorrect.

hasdgfas

: I can certainly see why you'd think that he can contribute more than he is/has, but can I ask why that makes you feel okay with lynching him? Seems like a bit of a cop-out lynch. Granted, any lynch is better than no-lynch, but I would seriously prefer going for a lynch and not a mis-lynch. Do you feel Capricious is scum? If not, why are you willing to lynch someone you don't think is scum?

I am still highly suspicious of Skruffs and Rotten Snitch...the dynamic between the two of them is not something I have seen before and it makes me very, very wary of both of them. The Snitch <--> Skruffs dynamic could be a form of bussing. I'll leave my vote where it is until someone tells me WHY Skruffs is obvtown, because honestly, I don't see it. He does a LOT of role speculation and it feels a lot like rolefishing to me.

Capricious also pings my scumdar a great deal because he hasn't contributed a lot lately and is hiding behind other people to fight his battles. He also used the "I'm stoopid" reason for not contributing, which I ALSO don't like. I realize anti-town != scum, but damn, he sure doesn't help us much.

I guess my focus is on those three. I'm willing to listen to other cases, though.

[Mizzy]

So basically: Yes, I feel he's scum. He's been pushing an andycyca lynch without explaining why andy is scum. (A relatively common scum tactic from what I've seen, argument through repetition). Many of his posts have been extremely contentless when he could easily have contributed more in many of his posts. When he does contribute, his logic seems more like scumlogic than townlogic.

Okay, now that I can understand and I feel a lot better about you now. Your post of "I'd be good with a Caprilynch" had kind pinged my scumdar, which is why I asked about it, but now I can see exactly where you are coming from.

Capricious:

Would you mind responding (in more than 2 sentences, please) to the case against you? I want to see your side of it.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and hasdgfas, I think you were already voting for Capri.

[Mizzy]

Why do you think this is a bad thing? I'd have thought that having multiple leads was a good thing for the town.

It can be, yes, but in this game's case, it feels like there's no reason to be pointing in some directions other than to just point (Andy and Zin are good examples of that in my eyes) and when someone says NOT to point at a specific person (I think people have called Skruffs, myself and Capri townies for sure) they fail to say

why

. It seems to lack the substance that would help town in most cases here.

[Mizzy]

So wait, mizzy:
You go out of your way to deflect or criticize lines of talk that involve zindaras not being town, and then to the exact opposite in regards to me and rotten snitch?

You have made it abundantly clear (to me) that you have a vested interest in protecting zindaras, over other players. Why?

You know, Skruffs, you don't get to make things up. You also don't get to selectively drop out parts of my posts.

Firstly, I haven't gone out of why way to do anything (you want to accuse me, then show some proof.) In my opinion, the cases against Andy AND Zin are empty. No one has shown anything to change that since I last said so even though I have asked.

Secondly, I didn't mention Snitch in that last post at all.

What is your obsession with constantly pairing the two of you up?

My point is that

no matter who

you accuse of being scum or exonerate as being town, you need to say WHY or your words can only be ignored at best and scrutinized as being scummy at worst.

Oh, and you have yet to provide specific posts and quotes from me that show I do what you accuse me of doing. I suggest you do it or shut up.

[Mizzy]

pro-town people are creators, scum play tag-along/ are concluders

That epiphany of yours a) doesn't seem to be directed at anyone, b) is not helpful and c) shows that

you're

scummy, if anything.

Can't you do any better than that?

[Mizzy]

I have a feeling that most people won't be around for the entire weekend, considering that Sunday is the holiday. I would suggest the deadlines be postponed until Monday when people will be home from wherever they are for Easter.

[Mizzy]

Oh, I read Ether's thing wrong. Ugh. *Naps more*

[Mizzy]

Am I the only one not having a holiday?

I'm heathen...my holiday passed already.

[Mizzy]

Capricious could be voting Andycaca to help achieve a lynch, bu instead he is voting himself, so...

Unvote, Vote : Capricious

It's pointless to jump through hoops to extend a deadline if we aren't coming to a conclusion.

As much as I hate to agree with you, you're right. He did post today, and honestly, an "Unvote" is just as easy a thing to type as a "hi." And much, much more helpful to the game. He's only really contributed when pressured to, and even that wasn't very much.

That makes me feel like either a) he doesn't care about the game at all, or b) he doesn't care about the

town

.

@Capri:

Which is it?

[Mizzy]

note:
mizzy may have indicated thoughts that Capri is town inher last sentence of her last post. Voting himself infers a lack of caring about himself, not necessarily town. It would only be a lack fo caring to town if he himself is town.

Secondarily, an Unvote is less helpful to the town than keeping his vote on himself at least by voting himself he's helping SOME sort of lynch. An unvote followed by a vote on someone else would be more helpful, of course. An unvote would only be helpful, to town, if Capricious is town voting himself, right?

Yes, that's a small part of my way of thinking, but I've been trying not to go there because of how WIFOM the whole thing is. (Ugh, I hate WIFOM.)

I'll explain my thinking for a moment, just so you guys know why I asked Capri about which motive he has, but PLEASE remember that it's terribly WIFOM and don't base anything off of it. This is for SHARING and DISCUSSION purposes, only.

It could be explained by a whole slew of thought-processes, but here's the few I am focused on:

1) Capritown > Gets bored and doesn't care > Votes for self > Hurts town by aiding his own mislynch
2) Capritown > Is an idiot > Votes for self > Hurts town by aiding his own mislynch
3) Capriscum > Freaks out and stays hidden > Votes for self to look more town > Escapes a lynch by invoking WIFOM
4) Capriscum > Wants a no-lynch > Votes for self to look more town > Doesn't help a real lynch > Escapes a lynch by invoking WIFOM

Capri's self-vote coupled with the lack of content-posting could show a desire for a no-lynch (while posting the minimum required, for the time being, so that he doesn't appear quite so scummy) or it could be a sign of a completely bored townie...but why not just get replaced? I'd prefer not to think of him as an idiot...but you never know.

Trust me, I know the whole thing is WIFOM, which is why I'm not acting based on it other than to ask Capri why and await his response before forming an opinion on his motive.

But, yes Skruffs, that's why I asked Capri whether a) he doesn't care about the game at all, or b) doesn't care about the town. The answer could very well be both; I have no idea.

[Mizzy]

Yeahbut, you forgot
A) Is scum and is voting himself to help scumbuddies look good
B) Is scum and doesn't care that he is scum so is giving up
etc...
all of your options are with him as town.

No, 2 of them are as if Capri is town and 2 of them are if Capri is scum. And like I said, there are many, many reasons/trains of thought involved, and I chose the 4 major ones at the forefront of my mind.

In essence, I'm hung between Capri being bored/stupid town and inventive/brave scum.

[Mizzy]

Why not bored/stupid scum though? Or brave town?

Why not any number of possibility combinations? Those are the ones I focused on but did not pursue, as I said, because of the severe WIFOM involved. Why are you so hell-bent on badgering me about them?

[Mizzy]

Oddly enough, if Capri expects to get lynched today or tommorow, I could see Capritown deciding that lynching himself is better for the town then a no-lynch, and I can't imagine capriscum ever deciding that lynching himself is better then a no lynch. Unless he's capriscum pulling a WIFOM thingy here.

Agreed, which is why I'm not voting him

at the moment

. I'm still deciding for myself whether a mislynch is better or worse than a no-lynch. It sucks, but I think a mislynch is better, isn't it? Statistically. Ugh.

I haven't had to deal with this particular conundrum in MS yet, and I'm looking for some opinions here.

[Mizzy]

Capri still strikes me as silly townie.

I am starting to feel that way too, honestly.

Since the reading and research and opinions I've seen agree that mislynch (if there is info to be gained) is better than no-lynch (and we

really

don't want a no-lynch) I would vote Capri if I absolutely had to...but I would not do it thinking he's scum at this time.

[Mizzy]

I would strongly, strongly prefer that we don't lynch Capri unless we absolutely need to and I would love the hell out of it if Capri would, you know, unvote himself? I don't think he has yet.

I'm about to be out of town for a bit (woot for an all-expenses-paid trip for a job interview) and will be only able to post a little bit. I will be posting, though!

[Mizzy]

Skruffs, your attempt at looking witty and contributive are worse than Capri's sometimes.

[Mizzy]

I always find it anti-town when someone says that the early pages aren't a basis for finding scum because that's a totally false statement. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for voting for someone. I find it scummy when someone says that. You may disagree, but I'm not budging on that issue.

Except that I didn't say that the early pages aren't basis for scumhunting; I said I didn't think that anyone could say

for sure

who is scum and who isn't on page 3.

I do agree with your sentiment, hasdgfas, that cases (either for someone being town OR scum) need good reasons and that's why I keep asking for them when I don't see them.

[Mizzy]

Right, which is what I was responding to in the post Capricious quoted, but he seemed to think I was antagonizing you. I totally understand where you're coming from now.

Oh, okay, sorry! I just wanted to make sure.

[Mizzy]

Headed out of town, and will be back Saturday. I should be able to post a little between now and then but you never know.

Before I scoot, I did some thinking on it, and did some Skruffs meta-reading last night, and did come to the same conclusion as others that Skruffs is

probably

anti-town town. I WILL be keeping an eye on him, thought because I am not

fully

convinced.

Unvote

[Mizzy]

Back from my trip!

I don't like this because it feels too much like a policy lynch/lynch policy:

Also, for the record, I think self-voting in general reeks of scum. I'd lynch someone for it any day of the week.

[Mizzy]

It's a policy lynch/lynch policy in the sense that I think self-voting is an indicator of being scum, and my policy is to lynch scum.

Eh, I've seen just as many town do it as scum. It's stupid, and not terribly pro-town, but that doesn't make it scummy in my eyes, I suppose.

[Mizzy]

At one point he started

making up "rules" about who is scum.

He wasn't suggesting nor sharing his thoughts, he was just claiming that is the case.
Now based on his own declaration, he just can accuse whoever he wishes without any one questioning it, and maybe get other people to follow.
He's also basing

most of his play on meta-gaming,

which isn't as helpful as he's making it look like (While accusing one of our best players. Convenient).
All in all, I get from him the feeling that he's

trying to make opportunities for future lynches while being under the radar

.

*Sticks her head in and gently points out that Capri is not the only person in the game to have committed the bolded offenses.*

[Mizzy]

Mizzy I don’t like your WIFOM in post 323. You jumped down my throat so far you could touch my harbles for WIFOM. Yet it is ok when you do it because you are aware and saying so? It is still WIFOM and very two-faced. Muddying up the waters…

Honestly, what you did and what I did were completely different. I said that my thoughts were for discussion only and that they should not be taken into account because they were WIFOM. Someone (Skruffs) asked and I answered. What you did was put WIFOM into play and expected it to be taken into account. Not the same thing.

[Mizzy]

1) Why aren't you voting for anyone?

Because the person I think is scummiest is probably just annoyingtown, knowing my luck, and the person everyone wants to lynch I don't want to lynch because I think he IS town.

2) Why are you opposed to a Capricious lynch?

Because his actions have come off to me as town, as of late, and I don't think the case on him is particularly strong. What people accuse him of, others have done too, and those people are not close to a lynch. That really bugs me.

3) How do you envisage this day ending?

I worry a lot that enough people will slip up that we have a no-lynch, and I worry that we're going to start accepting mislynches as good things. Sure, they keep us out of no-lynch, but too many mislynches because we're trying to get ANY lynch is not helpful, either.

4) How are you contributing to that?

Right now, I'm making sure I keep posting, and I'm looking back over the game to see if I missed anything that might help us find some scum. I really don't like that the game has gone from "find scum" to "find lynch target" which are not always one and the same.

[Mizzy]

Erm, are we in twilight?

[quote="Zindaras]"What the hell" is an accurate description of my feelings right now.[/quote]
Ditto.

[Mizzy]

I would say, "I told you so," but that would be terribly childish of me

and Skruffs seems to have the monopoly on childishness in this game

.

I would like to see an explanation from Andy, too, other than just his, "I posted here and here that I wants me a lynch." Like I posed before, are we all going to just keep voting for the opportune wagon to escape a no-lynch?

[Mizzy]

@Zindaras:

I am not fond of his hammer because as his two linked posts say, he didn't think that Capri was the scummiest target. He simply seemed to feel that we needed to lynch fast and I wonder if he didn't care so much who the target was.

[Mizzy]

I never said I was 100% sure he was town, but I did say that I didn't think he was scum and that his play looked like town to me, and that's why I didn't want him lynched. I know a no-lynch is horrible, but a lot of people on Capri's wagon didn't think he was scummy, or at least the scummiest, and I didn't feel comfortable with that.

[Mizzy]

And if someone was treating me as a townie, and buddying up to me as hard core as the two of you are to each other, I Would be suspicious, unless I was masons, and even then I would be suspicious about why my partner was tying himself to me so strongly.

I'm going to assume by this and your previous posts that you mean myself and Zind are buddying up. If my assumptions are correct, then I'd appreciate some proof here, because honestly, saying that something is so doesn't actually make it so.

And by proof, I mean direct quotes. Not paraphrasing or alluding to past posts. Actual. Quotes.

[Mizzy]

Well of course not. But you said that you were pretty damn sure. Whilst also leaving yourself the cop out of "well, if it avoids a no-lynch, I'd vote Capri, but I'd do it thinking he wasn't scum"
Which is a convenient way of setting yourself up as the reluctant townie, lynching someone (you know to be) a townie because everyone else told you to.

I kinda see Skruffs' Mizzy-Zindy link, but for me the thing that sticks out is how both of them have adopted this "I wasn't on the Capri wagon, and therefore I have clean hands" attitude.

I said that his play(s) was/were town to me; I have a very strong pro-towner read on him. I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that.

And what, I'm supposed to just be okay with a probable mislynch just because we have strict deadlines? I know a no-lynch is horrible but I don't want us settling for mislynches either. And yes, while I feel that my hands are clean, I'm also not holding it over anyone's head.

While you guys are pointing fingers left and right and pushing blame around, you might consider scumhunting a little, too.

[Mizzy]

Well, the argument that Capri didn't try to shake his wagon is a bit of a cop-out reason for things, if you ask me. Just because the person you're beating on doesn't fight back, it doesn't make it okay to beat on them.

According to Y's post, the major driving force behind lynching Capri was because he was doing some stupid shit. Not that he was doing scummy shit. What gives with that? If we lynched every moron, we'd have more ghost-towns than anything.

I suppose I can understand why Andy hammered, even if the timing and reasoning is questionable to me.

In the future, can we try and lynch people we think are scum? Maybe? No more of this, "Well, he's a little scummy...not the scummiest, but we need ANY lynch" bullshit? Please?

[Mizzy]

Secondarily, I am surprised, Mizzy, that you are flabbergasted where these allegations of you and Zindaras buddying up to each other came from. BAsically since the first vote on either of you, both of you have been defending each other, and I do not believe I have seen either of you direct aNY questioning towards eeach other; in short, both of you have tsarted from the get-go with the belief that the other is town, or at least not worth scrutinizing. That's supcious.

I believe I asked for proof, Skruffs, PROOF. Not made-up bullshit. Not re-tellings, actual quoted PROOF. Multiple times. The fact that you continuously refuse any kind of proof is suspicious. It's like dodging questions.

So your reasoning for Capri being town is that he was too stupid to be scum? Since when was intelligence linked to alignment?

Where in my sentence did I say that? I said, "I couldn't see a scum playing the way he did, and maybe it's just me but the case on him was so weak, there's no way I'd back something like that." I didn't say, "He was a moron, so he MUST be town." Open your eyes, try reading sometime, and then get back to me.

Now you're implying that everyone on the Capri wagon was settling for a mislynch. That gives you scope to attack everyone on that wagon for mislynching.
I was trying to lynch scum yesterday.
Most people were trying to lynch scum yesterday.
You were trying to stay out of trouble yesterday.

Firstly, half the people on the Capri wagon ADMITTED that they were settling for the lesser-scummy target, and just wanted a lynch. Even Andy said as much. Secondly, I haven't actually attacked anyone, though, now have I? If you were trying to lynch scum, you failed, miserably, and ignored everything that several of us said about Capri.

I wasn't the only person who didn't vote, and I sure as hell wasn't the only person who said he was prob-town. Go attack them too, just to be fair.

Yes you are. Every post you've made today has been criticising the Capri wagon, criticising the people on the Capri wagon, bemoaning our lynch of a poor innocent villager...

Yes, and that makes me so, so very scummy, doesn't it? I was RIGHT. You think I'm going to back down when I'm right and proven to be right about something? I'm a woman; of course I'm not.

Anyone who's played with me or read any of my games will know how much of a self-righteous wench I am when proven right. And sometimes, in general, whether or not I'm proven right. Don't expect me to just sit back and let people I think are town get mislynched and then not call people on it the next day.

Really? You think that refusing to provide a defence constitutes a valid defence? Or is this just another excuse to attack the Capri wagon?

Who needs an excuse to attack something as obviously scummy as the Capri-wagon? And no one is ASKING me for a defense. Not only that, but that sentence was aimed at Andy's 488 and not you.

You know what I think? I think that no one wants to take responsibility. If there had been a no-lynch, I'd have taken responsibility for not voting for a lynch, but now that there was a mislynch, all I see are people hiding under rocks and saying, "Well, he deserved it," or "He didn't fight back!" That's utter bullshit and when a town does shit like that, scum win easier because the town is just going to LET them win. UGH.

Sorry, mood swing over. Carry on.

[Mizzy]

Skruffs:

I still don't see quotes but I suppose this is as good as we're going to get out of you.

Ever.

It would really help responding to these types of things if you would provide post numbers, because seriously, I'm not going to respond to vague accusations when you can't even be fucked to show where they're coming from.

Firstly, during the random vote stage, most of us were being playful. It wasn't just Zind and me, it was Capri and you also, as you admit. I can't believe you're using random stage play so seriously...it's as WIFOM as it gets.

As for yelling about Meta bullshit, I yelled at SEVERAL people for it, not just you. I was on Rotten for it, and asked people to stop doing it because it is a distraction to town. Don't see how that's buddying.

Discrediting myself early in the game? By being

playful

? Yeah, right. I'm playful by nature. It's a null-tell at best.

And why I questioned your meta-ing of Zindaras is pretty important. I questioned it because of how stupid it was. If you had meta-ed ANYone that way, I'd have pointed out how stupid it was, and always will every time I see it. Not to mention you keep flip-flopping back and forth from, "Zindy is ALWAYS scum" to "I'm not used to Zindytown acting this way." You seriously don't even know what you're talking about. No wonder no one ever takes you seriously.

And wait, are you addressing me and Zindy in the same post without indication of who is meant for what? Or are you getting your facts mixed up? Because I didn't FoS you today. Zindy FoSed you. Or did you mean yesterday and say today?

See this is why your posting and cases are so shitty, Skruffs. Your thoughts are hard to follow and incoherent, and there's no quotes or post numbers. It's just a bunch of blah-blah with nothing to back it up or fall back on.

If you have any legitimate questions for me, I'll answer them, but right now I'm having a really hard time taking you seriously.

[Mizzy]

Lastly: You never do direct quote Zindaras after March 8th or so; you don't even address him directly until April 5th, a full month after hte game started. Buddying by omission.

The whole argument is too WIFOM to even touch on. The fact that you're so hung up on it shows you for the VI you are.

[Mizzy]

According to Y's post, the major driving force behind lynching Capri was because he was doing some stupid shit. Not that he was doing scummy shit. What gives with that? If we lynched every moron, we'd have more ghost-towns than anything.

Lurking isn't scummy? Using wrong/baseless accusations to put suspicion on people isn't scummy? What about not adding real info for discussion, while trying to appear as if he does?

You can't say he wasn't scummy. I saw him doing the same mistakes he did here when he was my scum partner. What I got from his play style (And you can clearly see it in post 38), is that he tries to get rid of the stronger players and remain with the weaker ones. You can definitely see that in Newbie 546 (Post 106 on that game, in particular).

But the same can be said for other people in this game, too...lurking, posting no content, making shit up to drive suspicion on other targets...which has been my point all along. You guys held Capri to a standard that you won't hold anyone else to. You said he was scummy for it, but what about everyone else who's done it, too? It's all hypocritical.

[Mizzy]

*Gasp* you mean...we reached a consensus? Amazing...
I note how you did nothing to push

any

lynch during the deadline.

We can do without the childish sarcasm, thanks. And actually, I was scumhunting a great deal. Just because I didn't agree with the majority on who was scum doesn't mean that I didn't find anyone scummy or work towards lynching scum. The fact that you are attacking me this way makes me wonder if you want all the guilt on me so that no one takes a closer look at

you

.

Haven't attacked anyone? You certainly sound like you're attacking people. The fact that you are attacking a broad swathe of people (ie, all the people on the Capri wagon), rather than naming names, just makes it worse.
And there you are again, attacking someone (me, this time) for lynching Capri. Oh, and just so you don't forget,

you failed to lynch scum too.

When I attack someone, you will see something like a FoS or a Vote from me in the post. Otherwise, I'm just scumhunting. And yes, the entire Capri wagon (and those NOT on the wagon) do need to be scrutinized because that's kind of how you play the game.

But you are the only person who didn't vote and is now using that as a basis for attacking others.

I'm pretty sure that's false...considering a certain other person *cough*Zindaras*cough* is coming under fire for the same thing.

Well yeah, actually. Not the being right part as such, but avoiding trouble Day 1 and then attacking people who

did

put their opinions on the line the next Day certainly does make you look scummy in my book.

So what you're saying is that in order to have appeared less scummy I should have helped you mislynch someone I felt was not scum? How does that work?

Pointing out that two players are avoiding each other isn't WIFOM. It's a pretty good indicator of scumbuddies, IMO.

Except where the two people haven't been avoiding each other. You can't say that Zind and I are both distancing AND buddying...

simultaneously.

It's not possible to do.

[Mizzy]

So, thanks Zindaras. Your blatant mockery led me to a rather unusual find: You , Mizzy, and Andycac rarely quote each other. ^.^

And you don't quote

anyone

. So does that mean you're distancing with everyone?

[Mizzy]

Except that there haven't really been other people who are doing those same things. If you could provide examples of people who are doing the same thing, maybe it would help your point a bit more.
Making things up to drive suspicion is

scummy

. There needs to be something concrete there and Capri wasn't giving us good reasons to suspect people.

RS and Skruffs have actually both done it and have both been under fire for it. If you would like some quoted examples, let me know...I'll take some time and go back and grab them.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy's attitude towards the people on the Capricious lynch is really scummy to me. Mizzy wasn't doing anything to get a lynch, and it looked like she wanted to no-lynch, which wouldn't have helped anyone except the scum. She wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri either. She didn't have another target for us. To me, it seemed like she wanted to be off-wagon so as not to come under suspicion and so she could hold it over our heads today, while she was actually fine with Capri getting lynched because she's scum and knew he was town. If she actually was serious about not wanting him lynched, she could have provided another option for us instead of saying "he's town, don't lynch him" then today saying "I told you so" which is actually a scumtell and leads me to a

FoS: Mizzy

Wait, I wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri? I'd re-read my posts 445 and 413 if I were you. What would you have me do other than voice my opinions loudly? I can't exactly threaten people, or force them to get off a wagon. All I can do is point out that Capri's wagon was weakass and point out his pro-town-tells. Which I did.

I did have other targets but they were subsequently ignored. No one wanted to look at them; they were all focused on Capri. What should I do, make a fuss like Skruffs? You guys are all adults and can make your own decisions. The fact that I cannot force people to look at what I say and who I suspect should not be used as a scum-mark against me because it's just plain bullshit and there's plenty of that in this game already.

As for "I told you so" being a scumtell, that's just crap too, and a crap reason to be FoSing me, seriously. Everything someone does can be marked as a scumtell, but that doesn't make them valid.

Has, I really don't appreciate you falling out of the game and then coming in and picking the "easy" target to FoS. Everyone's on my ass right now, and it feels like you either didn't catch up properly or just can't be fucked to participate further than these couple of posts of yours.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, maybe the reason you're coming under suspicion is because you deserve it. Sometimes the "easy" target can be the right target. Going after someone you find scummy is what you're supposed to do, no matter how many other people find them scummy. "I told you so" is most definitely a valid scumtell. I've caught people from it before, so calling it crap is wrong.

I've done it before as town...so it IS crap. It's not foolproof, and it's not provable.

The case against me consists of one real point...the fact that I was not on the wagon that mislynched a townie. Not a very strong case, honestly. I thought you were better than that, Has.

413 is not really that good of a post. Again, examples. Otherwise, it doesn't seem like you're doing anything to get the wagon off of him.
445 is pretty much the same thing. You're stating your opinion. I don't see you doing anything to move the wagon away from him. It seems like you just want to say that you don't like the lynch, but don't actually

do

anything to get it off of him other than say that you don't like it.

Like I said, I can't force people to not vote him. I said multiple times that what I was seeing was prob-town-tells, and if no one is going to listen, then no one is going to listen. That's the best I can do.

Wait, so first you say that we haven't held others to the same standard, and then you say that they've both been under fire for it? Which is it, exactly? Also, quoted examples would be lovely.

The same standards for a lynch or wagon, specifically. Coming under fire for something and being lynched for it are not the same thing. It's like:

Person A does action Z.
Person B does action Z.
Person C does action Z.
Person B gets lynched for it, while the others just get eyed suspiciously.

Not really fair, is it?

I'll try and get a list of quotes together ASAP but I have a ton of doctor appointments in the next few days so please bear with me.

[Mizzy]

This is how you can say that you haven't attacked anyone Today, you make these blanket statements toward an unspecified group of people. Who,

specifically

, are you talking about?

Already answered this one, but I will again just for your benefit. RS and Scruffs have both done these things. I'll be getting a post together to show what I mean as soon as I am able.

What about the post I quoted just above? It looks like an attack to me.

Frequently, what something

looks like

and what it

is

are not the same. I'm a little pissy, I admit, that no one listened to me for most of D1 (when it came to both who I thought should be looked at and who I thought was not a valid scumtarget) and now I'm getting attacked for it. It's kind of like damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I'll say it again: you failed to lynch scum too.

Yes, yes I did. But I also did not want to be on a wagon I felt would end in a dead townie. That's not my point, though. My point is that we need to look at the voting and evidence that Capri's death has given us, and I said it before and I'll say it again...everyone needs to be looked at, including those that did not vote. So far, only Yosarian has given me a reason he was on the Capri lynch that I can understand. He's the only one who has tried.

No, you're the only one who didn't vote and is now using the fact that you weren't on the wagon as a pedestal to put yourself on.

Actually, RS did make a similar post to mine. Maybe you should go look at it again? And I didn't mean people who didn't vote at all, I mean people who didn't vote Capri.

Sitting quietly and not committing to anything on Day 1, only to attack other people for taking a stand the next Day IS scummy. Which is why I think you're scum.

I wasn't quiet about RS OR Skruffs D1...so I fail to see how you can say I sat quietly.

[Mizzy]

You weren't on

any

wagon. You didn't vote for anyone at the end of day 1. While you may think there's only one real point, I feel there are multiple points.
You weren't on the wagon, which really isn't my main point at all.
You weren't voting for anyone, which, especially with these deadline rules, is a vote for no-lynch, not what we want to do at all.
The "I told you so." You may not like it, but it is scummy.
You really didn't try to get the wagon to go anywhere else. If you want people to not lynch someone, get the pressure off of them by applying it to someone else. Sitting back saying "he's town, he's town" won't help at all. Sorry.
You may think my reasons are crap, and you're entitled to your opinion on them for sure, but don't misrepresent the case by saying there's only one main real point, when there are multiple real points, even though they may not be ones that you agree with.

So, in order for my actions to have mattered at all, I would have had to end the day voting for someone? None of the other votes and such that I made during D1 count, at all?

I guess I just don't agree that the case points on me are scummy ones. I did my part in keeping a no-lynch from happening...the fact that I was unwilling to help lynch someone I thought was pro-town seems to be the only thing that people dwell on.

Again, I've done the "I told you so" thing before as town, so how is that scummy? And plus, I didn't actually say "I told you so," I said I WOULD if it wouldn't have been childish. You might think there's no distinction there, but there is.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and just so everyone knows, here's my current scumdar, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is scummy and 1 is town:

hasdgfas - 7
eldarad - 7
Skruffs - 5
Andycyca - 5
Rotten Snitch - 5
Y - 3
Zindaras - 2
Yosarian2 - 1

[Mizzy]

Interesting again. It seems like just because the most discussion was about Capricious before the deadline insanity votes, that was why Capricious was the one chosen. Those who just jumped on to ensure a lynch could probably have convinced the town to jump onto a different suspect if there was a good case, but nobody seemed to care enough. I wonder why that is.

Just a little information from my brain here...I agree that I should have done a better job trying to get the town turned onto a new target, but I did feel like any effort towards that would have been wasted because everyone was kind of freaking out. Also, as most of you know, I'm very busy IRL with the impending arrival of my baby, so I am not as invested in my games as I normally am or should be. Not an excuse, but I did want to give the reasons why it may have seemed like I didn't "care" enough.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and just so everyone knows, here's my current scumdar, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 10 is scummy and 1 is town:

hasdgfas - 7
eldarad - 7
Skruffs - 5
Andycyca - 5
Rotten Snitch - 5
Y - 3
Zindaras - 2
Yosarian2 - 1

Interesting. The people who jumped onto the Capri wagon with pretty much no reasoning are less scummy than eldarad and I, who had both been voting him for a while, and , coincedentally(sp?), are both suspicious of you right now.

Has, you're up from a 5 because of (and only because) of you kind of disappearing from the game and then coming back and appearing to attack the "opportune" target without having given much content first. I would have given you those points no matter who you had attacked if that person was the "opportune" target, whether it was myself or not.

Eld is up there because his aggressive behavior kind of came out of left field. It does feel like he's trying to take out frustration on someone, and I don't like it.

My number 5's are ones I am currently unsure about, but one thing for sure is that I am sick of RS lurking.

[Mizzy]

I'm not lurking Mizzy. I just don't have anything to say right now. As a matter of fact just about every time I do make a post you jump on my case. The conversations I have had with you are extremely diffucult and as of yet I have no other suspicions. Except a wild notion that maybe Capri was right about the whole cat mafia theory, cause I really see Skruffs, Mizzy, and Zindy at the top of my list. I do not have 100% proof yet and therefore I am watching and trying to make my connections.

Well, hello there. Actually, if you bothered paying attention, the last time you posted, I didn't say anything about it at all. So stop using me as an excuse to not contribute.

[Mizzy]

No actually you did post back to me. I called you out (419) for your admitted WIFOM and your hypocrisy you countered in post 427. The only reason you did not continue arguing with me is because my argument (428) was valid and you really couldn’t have continued without looking scummy. So you probably let that one drop.

Case in point you come right back with making me look bad right now. You are not my excuse for not posting. I have already given my excuse. It may be seen as lurking to some but I am reading very thoroughly and taking notes. Like I said all’s I got is my vote and I’m gonna make sure it is on the right person.

Actually, I'm talking about your 486 post, which came after everything you're bitching about. I didn't attack you at all for that, and I'm surprised you either forgot about it or ignored the fact.

As for why I stopped arguing with you, you're wrong. I stopped arguing with you because you were selectively ignoring my points in order to make your argument look more valid. There's a big difference between, "Here's an argument I want the town to consider, but I'm not going to admit it's WIFOM," and "Here are my thoughts because I was asked for them, but I don't want the town to consider them because they are WIFOM and based on gut."

As for you not posting, if I'm not your excuse, then you have

no

excuse. By not posting and just sitting there, you're active lurking. That's what active lurking is. And it's anti-town. I'm not attacking you for it, I'm asking that you stop and actually contribute to discussion.

[Mizzy]

Ok so um if I say something is WIFOM and I do not want the town to acknowledge and discuss..... Then what am I doing by posting it??????....... Muddying the waters?? Yes I think that is a good term to use.....

It was either that or not answer at all, which is just as bad. At least the town knew what I was thinking and could choose whether or not to make anything of it. The difference is that you tried to pass the WIFOM off as something other than WIFOM. That's what I called you on.

Also, the whole cat mafia thing? It's not really WIFOM so much as it's completely useless. I changed my avatar to a "cat chick" because I was outted as a furry in scumchat (and earned the title "Furry" when the TitleFairy gets around to it) and because it's my universal avatar. Meaning, it's the avatar I use everywhere where people know me and not because of anyone else's avatar. Avatars have nothing to do with the games, on these forums. I've never heard of a game in which they did matter (if anyone else has, speak up.)

Again, not attacking you, just pointing out that you might be headed completely off-track in your thinking.

[Mizzy]

And that is fine. I said it was just a hunch and the night actions kinda confirmed it.

I do however think Skruffs is acting very odd in his postings and I have some suspicions of you and zindy as well so it does fall into play for my own ideas.

Off track in thinking it's an avatar thing, yeah probably, it is fun to think that kind of stuff. I am not however basing my scum list off of that.
Off track in thinking you three could possibly be scum.... maybe not

Well definitely don't rule out any scum pairings you think you've found until you have proof otherwise. These games are all about guilty-until-proven-innocent.

Skruffs' posting bothers me because he's so completely tunnel-visioned that he's not actually helping the game progress. (And no, I don't count his hand in the Capri lynch as progression because he didn't think Capri was scummy, or at least not the scummiest, if I remember correctly.) It's happened to me before, actually...someone got so fixated on "Mizzy is scum!" that they ended up losing us the game when they mislynched me during the endgame and I seriously hope that doesn't happen again. So far in 3 separate games, 3 different people who were town were entirely convinced I was scum (Ether, Adel and Flameaxe) and every one of them was

wrong

. That's why I'm not voting Skruffs, as much as I'd like to...because history has shown me that just because someone is a tunnel-visioned dork, it doesn't mean they are scum for it.

[Mizzy]

Let me explain (again) WHY I am upset with the Capri lynch. I think that might be getting lost in everything going on.

I am not upset, specifically, that it was a mislynch...mislynches happen. Hell, I've caused a couple in past games just by being an over-zealous townie. They suck, but they happen, and a mislynch is better than a no-lynch. What upsets me about the Capri lynch was that most of the people on the wagon specifically said that Capri was not their top suspect, or even a suspect at all, and that they wanted a lynch in general because they freaked out about the deadline mechanism. I am hoping that we can break from that in the future and lynch those we think are scummiest, not the ones we think we can get lynched just to keep days moving.

I don't think (as was already pointed out) that those people are scummy persay, but I do ask that we concentrate on scumhunting and not lynchhunting. We should not be lynching the easiest target just to move the days forward...we should be working towards correct lynches. Not everyone on Capri's wagon is guilty of that, either...some people legitimately thought he was scum, and I can't fault them for that.

[Mizzy]

The list has already been named, Eld, how many times do you need to see it for it to sink in? You haven't asked me for a list that I noticed before this. You just plain attacked me.

Do you want to see the list again or can you be a big boy and go read it on your own since it was already given by someone else?

[Mizzy]

I've seen your list where you have given people a score on a scale from 1 to 10 in terms of scumminess. But I'm not seeing how that relates to all of the other posts you have made so far in the whole game.

Why don't you indulge me and tell me who, specifically, you were talking about in post 551?

Sure thing, then. Please keep in mind that this is not an attack, just a list showing why I didn't like the reasoning behind the Capri wagon. If I missed a post where someone on the list says they found Capri to be scummy and a good scum-lynch, then please point me to it.

6 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas, Skruffs, Y, Yosarian2, Andycyca)

eldarad:

Says a couple times that he actually thinks Capri is scum. Moving on to the others.

hasdgfas:

Says once that he thinks Capri is likely to be scum. Moving on.

Skruffs:

Says his justification for voting/being on the Capri wagon is information gathering and to keep from having a mislynch. Doesn't mention finding him to be scum that I can find.

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

That is my justification: I am trying to get a day one lynch when we have to fight every 24 hours to be able to do that and some people are blithely stalling or trying to entail a nolynch.

Y:

Says he finds Capri to be a little on the scummy side but not his main suspect...however he also says he'd vote Capri in a pinch in order to secure a lynch.

Skruffs is still my main suspect for trying to make facts about who must be scum without a real basis, but I'm not ruling Capricious out. I'll vote Capricious if needed for a lynch.

The town needs a lynch and Capricious seems a good enough option.
Unvote, Vote Capricious. I still think Skruffs should be looked at more carefully.

Yosarian2:

Yosarian2 actually did explain why he still voted Capri anyway, and I can understand that. However, he still didn't think Capri was "especially likely to be scum" adding to the "well, whatever" feeling to the whole wagon.

It's not so much because I think he's especally likely to be scum, not much more so then anyone else anyway. It's more that, at this point, it looks like that unless he starts defending himself better or unless something else happens, the day appears that it is going to end in either a no-lynch or a capi lynch. I'd rather see a capi lynch then a no-lynch, and I'm also hoping that the added pressure will encourage him to come back and try to defend himself or claim or something, and to do it fast.

Andycyca:

Hammered Capri using these two posts to "justify" it, again adding to the, "he may not be scum but let's lynch him anyway" theme.

A lynch is better than NoLynch IMHO, and even if Capri isn't the scummier right now, he should claim quickly or die.

I don't think Capri is the scummiest one, but we definitely should lynch pronto.

[Mizzy]

What, does

everyone

have stuff to do? Where IS everyone?

[Mizzy]

Sorry, I've been out of school for years so I have no idea what the hell you guys are doing

[Mizzy]

Oooh, Skruffs is on the defense when there was no attack. Why so jumpy?

[Mizzy]

Oooh, Skruffs is on the defense when there was no attack. Why so jumpy?

Mizzy, if you're trying to say that he's being overdefensive, just stop and get off of that line of thought.

What is interesting to me is that even when I specifically say I'm not attacking anyone, he has to immediately jump to his own defense, and attack me in return,

again

. So yes, what I am saying is that he needs to read a little better and not get so damned touchy when I wasn't attacking him.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, you're saying you're attacking no one, yet you keep throwing accusations all over the place.

Did you even bother reading my big post? You know, the one you all wanted to see? I haven't attacked anyone other than Skruffs for his bullshit anti-town behavior.

Someone asked me for why I didn't like the Capri wagon, so I said why. I also said, in the same post, that I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just giving reasons why I stayed off of it.

[Mizzy]

Y, like Mizzy yesterday, is looking for 'proof' of scumminess before willingness to vote, which is at best lazy or at worst cop-fishing.

Really busy but wanted to quick toss this out there...Skruffs, since you seem to have said (correct me if I am wrong) that you meta D1 because there is nothing else to go on, did you bother to meta me at all? I'm a very, very cautious player and in ALL the games I have been in, I do not vote unless I am sure of that vote. So yes, I want proof of scumminess, because without it, I'm not ever comfortable voting.

[Mizzy]

That's my point: You're saying that, while doing the opposite.

Like I said before, if I were attacking someone, you'd see FoSes and votes from me. Just because you say what I am doing is attacking doesn't make it so.

[Mizzy]

Just because it doesn't look like attacking to you doesn't mean it's not.

I think you guys just don't like the fact that I'm talking about a mistake that was made by the majority. I've made plenty of bad mistakes in games, gotten townies killed by accident for them, and I'm only saying that we can't continue just lynching for the sake of lynching; ANY of us, myself included. We should ALL learn from the mistakes and not repeat them.

My suspicions are formed from actions and responses that have nothing to do with the wagon, as much as I didn't like it...so I'm not quite sure why everyone thinks I'm attacking anyone for it. I don't see any quotes, here.

[Mizzy]

Capricious and Elmo being down DO NO DETRACT from my arguments that the scum are Mizzy and/or Zindaras! IF he had been scum, I would have recalibrated.

So why, then, were you so happy lynching someone you didn't think was scum instead of working out a good, strong case against either one of the people you

do

think are scum? This is not an attack; it's a serious question. As far as I can tell, the deadline mechanism was the driving force in your pushing for a lynch. Is that correct or false?

Yes, we have an automatic deadline mechanic that can result in a no-lynch if we are not on our game. I don't see that the deadline mechanic is something we should panic about, nor do I think we should let it rule our decisions going forward. We tried it, it didn't work out very well, and now we should try something else. That's my point and my opinion.

[Mizzy]

I think it was because all attempts I had to encourage discussion towards other people were backhanded into the corner and called the red-headed step child.

You yourself

took the charge in trying to stop me from branching the conversation away from Capricious, before deadline.

What should we do, then, next deadline? Just let it happen?

Of course we don't let the no-lynch happen, but that's easy enough to do by

staying active and posting

. The deadlines aren't set, they are fluid, and as long as we participate, then we're safe from the no-lynches happening.

As for you steering the conversation away from Capricious before the deadline, I really don't see you trying much other than to scream, "Mizzy is scum, omfg!" In fact, the last time (before the day ended) that I spoke directly to you was Wed Mar 26, #361, when the day ended Thu Apr 03, #449, nearly 8 RL days and 100 posts later. You had

at least

that span of that time to steer the discussion any way you wanted, but I don't really see that you tried, and I certainly didn't tell you not to try.

In fact, during those 8 days and near-100 posts, here's what you did post about (backtracking some to include the whole page:)

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

Discussing Capri.

Ding Dong!
Five more people need to post, or one mroe needs to vote Capricious.

Discussing Capri.

I am anxious to CORRECTLY END day One, NOT get to night 2. Night 2 is inevitable, and we are playing with a loaded gun by drawing day 1 out. We either get a STRONG wagon on someone other than Capricious, FAST, (because scum would rather not post and let day go to night with a no-lynch then let themselves be quicklynched) OR we lynch Capricious and have SOME info OR we do nothing and let the big ? wait until tomorrow.

Discussing Capri.

^- Translation "hope for nolynch"

Finally, no direct mention of Capri, but this IS a direct attack of my sentiments in my post #359 that I didn't want a Capri lynch.

Assuming I am in the next block right now.
Filler post !

Exactly what he said, a filler post but not trying to discuss anything, let alone steer conversation from Capri.

I am not antitown town. I have a pretty good track record, matter of fact, except the last two Lylos, but in both of those cases, the other other town player was ignorant or absentee.

No real content, and not trying to steer conversation from Capri.

Lynch scumkitties, moving, we're playing with fire by withbdeadlines
Can anyonew check to see if anyone's posting frequency before/after deadline has passed

No real content, and not trying to steer conversation from Capri.

HMmmmm.
Elmo: Think it's about Andy.

No real content, and not trying to steer conversation from Capri.

Oh, okay. ^.^

It's really easy to pick at other players without, you know, putting yourself at risk, isn't it?

No real content, and not trying to steer conversation from Capri.

Y:
I see absolutely NO posts where you criticized for attacking me. Since you decided to pick a person that several other players have already shown resentment towards, I imagine that you picked a player that you could 'bandwagon'-attack, knowing that your sentiments would be easily shared - and carried, by others. Thus, you attacked someone that would lead to NO risk of yourself being attacked. I do not see WHERE you were attacked, but please quote posts where you were voted against and/or attacked for being suspicious of me. Obviously, I do not count in this, because I am the one who called you out in it.

Hey look, some content! But I still don't really see you trying to steer conversation onto any scum candidates; just being defensive in general.

Can we lynch Mizzy?
I am voting Capri ONLY to ensure a day one lynch, which is town's ONLY WEAPON that we can be sure of at this juncture. I have been saying since the FIRST DAY that we entered deadline that we needed to hammer fast, because otherwise scum will just lay low and wait for the atrophy to sink in until we miss a deadline and lose.

Mizzy is SCUM. D: SCUM I TELL YOU LYNCH THE BETCH!!! If not today than tomorrow.

And more Capri talk, in fact, directing the conversation back onto him.

----------------

And then Capri was hammered in post 449. So within the 98 posts that happened before the day ended, I don't see you once trying to steer conversation off of Capri, and no where except once did I even directly address you. So where did I "try to stop you from branching the conversation away from Capricious, before deadline?"

[Mizzy]

Skruffs, that post was not made anywhere near the end of anything, and we didn't HAVE a deadline.

[Mizzy]

Hey, no. Try again. This is a terrible post. First off, we have plenty of time. People aren't voting because there's good discussion going on right now. Why do you think we're going to no-lynch? Do you not like the discussion that's currently going on? I think it's very useful.

Even if it's me that's on the roasting pit here, I agree with Has. We certainly do not need to wagon right now and we are not in danger as long as people pay attention and stay active, yes? More information is better.

[Mizzy]

• Rules (you should probably read these)

1. Assuming you don't lynch anyone, a day phase should last two weeks. When the two weeks are up, the game will enter a deadline. In every 24-hour block after the deadline, a majority of the living players must post or the game will go to night. Basically, lynch quickly or keep things active.
   
2. If the game goes to night due to a deadline, there won't be a lynch. Someone has to consciously place a hammer.

Mizzy, the game started with a KNOWN two-week deadline, every day.


You can't say we didn't start off with one, because it was public knowledge that we did. You were too busy trying to prevent actual scum hunting from going on to read the rules, I guess.

Except that we can keep the deadlines postponed by being active. Which, we did, quite successfully.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and I've already mentioned who I suspect most and why...those are the people I think are scum. No one has asked me anything about my cases on them, and no one has bothered asking me much without then attacking the crap out of me for answering. In short, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[Mizzy]

Zind: This is what I said already about Eld and Has:

Has, you're up from a 5 because of (and only because) of you kind of disappearing from the game and then coming back and appearing to attack the "opportune" target without having given much content first. I would have given you those points no matter who you had attacked if that person was the "opportune" target, whether it was myself or not.

Eld is up there because his aggressive behavior kind of came out of left field. It does feel like he's trying to take out frustration on someone, and I don't like it.

I don't suspect anyone based on their Capri-wagon activity, but mostly based on their D2 actions.

[Mizzy]

No it doesn't. This argument says "we, collectively, failed to lynch scum Yesterday and so individuals who weren't on the Capri wagon don't get a free pass today."
I think it is significant that you have freely admitted that the town, collectively, is responsible for the mislynch. That's something Mizzy was reluctant to concede.

Well, no, the town collectively is responsible for not lynching scum, but only the wagoners are responsible for the mislynch. Big difference.

I see Mizzy using that argument for leverage, even if it is never explicitly stated. It's one of the things I've called her on Today. IIRC, several other players have also called her up on this.

I have said multiple times that EVERYONE should be looked at, myself included.

Personally, I think we can search for scum more fruitfully amongst those who avoided the Capri wagon (or, indeed, those who bailed out).

I feel that ruling out either half of the equation is moronic.

[Mizzy]

But you've put pretty much everyone who bothers you according to this low on your list, that's what bothers me.

So what, I should think that everyone who makes a mistake is scum?

[Mizzy]

No, but it seems kinda silly that you say that the whole "not voting for the main suspect" bothered you, and then everyone who did it turns up pretty low on your list.

I didn't say I thought they were scummy, Zind, I said it bothered me because it was stupid to do.

[Mizzy]

Eh, I usually use bother when I'm talking about something I find scummy.

Don't go holding me to your semantics, mister. I say "bother" when something bothers me, and it doesn't have to mean in what way.

[Mizzy]

I over-react sometimes, yes, but I do that in all the games I play...it's mainly due to the hormones, to be honest. I'm a terror IRL.

[Mizzy]

I over-react sometimes, yes, but I do that in all the games I play...it's mainly due to the hormones, to be honest. I'm a terror IRL.

I never said it was just here, nor that it's scummy (In fact I said it wasn't necessarily scummy), just that some of your post are overreactions.

I know, I'm just agreeing with you.

[Mizzy]

Well, yeah, but we're used to people with too many male hormones, not to people with too many female hormones.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you're not a terror in real life. Just terrific. ^_^

You understand the ancient art of pleasing pissy women!

Anyway, back to scumhunting. I'm still undecided about Rotten Snitch and Skruffs both. As you all might remember, RS had grabbed my attention early on for his and Skruffs' odd dynamic, which started from Skruffs pulling needless RL meta information into the game and RS seemed to feel the need to distance the two of them. Certain things do stand out, especially D2, and I definitely could see a RS/Skruffs pairing. I can also see, though, both of them being annoying pro-towners. That's why they are still "undecided" on my scumdar list.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, which do you find more likely for each of them? Annoying pro-towner or scum?

Let me do a quick Skruffs and RS re-read and I'll get back to you with not only an opinion but a reason for it, too

[Mizzy]

/filler post!

4 more people to go.

[Mizzy]

MOD:

I just went into labor, be back ASAP! It should only be 2-3 days. Wish me luck

[Mizzy]

I'm home, reading over what I missed ASAP!

[Mizzy]

Mizzy - Zindy - Skruffs if there was Day talk going on it would be with more active players to be completely effective I think. These three have been the most talkative throughout the whole game.

I applaud your effort at logic here, but honestly, it missed the mark. Just because someone is active ingame does not mean they are active elsewhere, and if you were to check my posting history in other games, you would see that I am very active everywhere with my posting. Good try, though.

[Mizzy]

Thanks for all the congrats and such, all! I have read up til here and between sleep and frequent critter-feedings, I will go back and re-read Skruffs and RS and see if I can formulate a less middle-of-the-road opinion.

[Mizzy]

The fact that she was possibly blocking me proves I had nothing to do with her death.

Uhm, no. For one, you could simply not have been the wolf killing her. For two, we wouldn't know that unless we were absolutely sure that she blocked you. Just the possibility that you may not have killed her doesn't prove that you didn't kill her.

Did I miss where we know for sure what the Gaoler did and whether or not they were pro-town?

[Mizzy]

Not to be snide, but I've been bandied abou for questioning wether or not there was werewolves. I do'nt recall you questioning the proof that there was a werewolf or not.

Actually, I was asking seriously. I was really asking if I missed it. I've missed a lot and my participation is a bit sporadic at the moment. It was a genuine question.

IS there another scum group we need to be worrying about, Mizzy?

How the hell should I know? The flavor only mentions wolves, so I go with wolves.

[Mizzy]

Again, I wasn't meaning ot be rude. You have priorities Mizzy and those priorities should be the ones with fingers and toes not townies and wolves. Congrats on your healthy return, wether you are scum or not.

I understand, and I am a bit out of it at the moment. I'm not offended, just wanted to know if I'd missed something important; I don't think I did but you never know.

[Mizzy]

I'm not ignoring anyone, actually. No one has asked me anything and I see nothing to respond to.

FoS: Y

for making shit up.

[Mizzy]

Skruffs, I don't think we have any wagons right now, actually, which is rather interesting because we have several pretty good cases. Let me make a couple of comments and ask a few questions of several players:

Skruffs:

It feels a little bit like you are attacking/voting Y because of the spat you two are having, even if it originally began from a valid set of case points. It feels a little OMGUS, and it also seems like you are worrying about being lynched when there's only one vote on you, currently. I'm not trying to attack you, but I'd like to know why you're being so worried about it just yet?

Y:

Telling someone to shut up like that isn't the nicest thing in the world. I am guilty of it, myself, but I felt pretty bad about it after and vowed not to do that again. Even if Skruffs' posting is annoying to us (trust me, I understand that part) it would not help town if he simply shut up. His activity does help, and it does give us more information.

RS:

Your post #703 comes off as a bit overly-agreeable, maybe because you're happy to get conversation off you and onto someone else? Yosarian2 made some good points against you in his #708 that I don't see responses to. It feels like you're brushing off what he has to say about you. Your suspicions of him seem very, very OMGUS, also.

I'm still not liking Mizzy's behaviour in general Today (snip)

Are you not liking my play because I suspect you or are you not liking my play because it's convenient for you? Because, seriously, my play hasn't been anything out of the normal for me, and most of it today has centered around trying to keep the town from making the same mistake twice. I can't see what's so bad about that from a town perspective...I can see why scum would hate it, but not townies. Also, what gives you a pro-town read on RS?

[Mizzy]

/post

Mizzy, I see your questions, I'll answer them when I have the time and inclination. (Maybe even later tonight, depends)

No worries, I know folks are busy.

[Mizzy]

Not wanting to go into no-lynch is very chivalrous of you, RS, but you didn't need to post filler posts quite so often.

Also, I want to stick my big nose in here and comment on this:

this in itself is your opinion just as I got scummy vibes from you because of the constant hounding no matter how I posted or how often. I could makes posts identical to yours but you would find something in them scummy and use it against me. You are accusing me of playing how you’d expect a mafia to play, however I have only been in a few games and have yet to be scum in any of them including this one.

Of course it's his opinion...this entire game is based on opinions for the most part. Very little is truly concrete in these games and it's the town's opinion of a player that makes a difference.

As for your defense against Yos's "you play how I would expect mafia to play," your answer doesn't really cut it. Just because you have only been in a few games doesn't mean you can't be scum acting like scum in this one. We have no way to know your alignment, so simply stating that you are not scum here doesn't do us a damned bit of good.

What I think Yos is saying, and what I also feel after a quick re-read of you, is that your actions have not been pro-town and have been in line with what a scum (noobscum if you ask me) would act like. Your prior roles and experience (or lack thereof) don't change that, and in fact, because you haven't been scum in other games, it makes more sense that you would be a noobscum in this one who is screwing up and looking like noobscum.

I really think my first impression of you from D1 was accurate and I think you're a good scumbet. I want to see what others have to say before voting, but until then,

FoS: RS.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy I posted once a day to ensure a no lynch and that was what I promised I would do on Friday.....

As for the rest of your post- opinions are fine and dandy but my actions have been the best I have been able to put out for this game, Noob scum- I wish -I probably would have been more excited to be in the mix. Obviously my lay low and defend when attacked idea isnt working because of the heat I'm getting.... yet I keep it up.

Sorry to bust everyone's bubble about newb scum and the Skruffles dynamic duo bit, but I'm just plain ole nothing. No power role no cool night action. I have a long ass re-read of 774 posts and all's I got is my vote, that was why I didn't vote day one. I didnt think Capri was scummy but I didn't think anyone else was equally as scummy so i did not vote.

Of course you think I am not pro town and your day one read on me is a good scum bet. You shut me down on my first attempt to scum hunt. Skruffs came up with his usual BS and I saw something in there I might be able to use. Knowing him he probably would make a comment about it being "unfortunate" that a power role was killed night 0. That was so sarcastically delicious of him to not say it. But you shut me down and a wagon was put on me. Yet day two comes around and you still find me scummy....
Keeping to my OMGUS tradition I would say should Skruffs hang and turn scum you'd be a nice buddy to check up on. I like how you attacked me to begin with and then you two spent the rest of the game fighting between each other. Now you come back to the original "good scum bet day 1 idea" nice little 360 to throw everyone off.

This post is an excellent example of what you should not say and makes me further suspect you. Let me explain why and respond to you:

Mizzy I posted once a day to ensure a no lynch and that was what I promised I would do on Friday.

That's fine, but you only need to do so once per deadline block. Multiple fluff posts don't help. Just make sure you post once per count and we'll be fine.

opinions are fine and dandy but my actions have been the best I have been able to put out for this game, Noob scum- I wish -I probably would have been more excited to be in the mix. Obviously my lay low and defend when attacked idea isnt working because of the heat I'm getting.... yet I keep it up.

Sorry to bust everyone's bubble about newb scum and the Skruffles dynamic duo bit, but I'm just plain ole nothing. No power role no cool night action.

I don't know why you bother trying to claim that you're not scum because regardless of whether you are lying or not, we can't believe you. What do you think a scummer is going to say if someone asks them if they are scum? Do you think they'd just out and say it? Hell no, they'd claim vanilla townie just like what you're doing. You can't just say, "Hey I'm not scum!" and expect people to believe you. You have to prove it. People who constantly spout their innocent seriously ping my newb-scumdar.

Of course you think I am not pro town and your day one read on me is a good scum bet. You shut me down on my first attempt to scum hunt. Skruffs came up with his usual BS and I saw something in there I might be able to use. Knowing him he probably would make a comment about it being "unfortunate" that a power role was killed night 0. That was so sarcastically delicious of him to not say it. But you shut me down and a wagon was put on me. Yet day two comes around and you still find me scummy....
Keeping to my OMGUS tradition I would say should Skruffs hang and turn scum you'd be a nice buddy to check up on. I like how you attacked me to begin with and then you two spent the rest of the game fighting between each other. Now you come back to the original "good scum bet day 1 idea" nice little 360 to throw everyone off.

Like I said to Skruffs, using me and my attacks on you as an excuse to get out of scumhunting is absolute and utter bullshit. No one can force you to stop scumhunting on a damned thread, so don't say I shut you out because it's a cop-out on your part. Your attempt at a tell on Skruffs was completely null, and didn't help one bit, and your further attempts at scumhunting have been along the same vein. Thinking people are mafia together because they have cat avatars? You can't be serious.

Maybe you didn't realize it, but WIFOM and OMGUS arguments are not scumhunting. Okay, sure, if we lynch Skruffs and he comes up scum, I'd be more than happy to be looked at because hey! We found scum! Hell, look at me now, instead of then. Look at SOMEONE seriously, without bullshit cases, and maybe I can take you seriously.

What 360? I always suspected you, and have continually said that you are "unknown" at best on my list of suspects. I also said I was going to re-read you to determine an opinion either way on you, which I did, and now I have that opinion of you.

I know I'm not being terribly nice here, but either you have no idea how to play this game or you are newbscum and you have no idea how to play as scum. Since you have played before, as you have said, then it can't be that you don't know how to play, now can it?

Here are the general points against you in my eyes:

1) Using null-tells to attempt to make cases on people.
2) Periods of lurking and lack of content.
3) The inability to respond well under pressure.
4) Being very OMGUS to multiple people at once.
5) Using WIFOM arguments to "prove" your points.
6) Using offense as a defense.

Oh, and one more thing, if you honestly suspect me because Skruffs and I were attacking each other, then you seriously need to look at all the other arguments going on, especially the one between you and Y. If Skruffs and I are both scum for arguing against each other, then by the same logic, so are you and Y and Yosarian2 for the same reason. Which doesn't really work, because I

seriously

doubt we have 5 scum in this game for obvious reasons.

[Mizzy]

Eldarad, for some reason, this post of yours feels very aggressive and it almost feels like it was very aggressive

because

I just attacked Rotten Snitch.

But when I think back to who have been pushing an agenda of narrowing discussion, and making the lynch an either/or decision between two people, there are two people who spring to mind.

FoS: Skruffs

for not leaving past grudges behind back in the games they belong in, drawing focus away from the two scum candidates, and being tunnel-visioned.

As Skruffs has already mentioned, this is a deliberate attempt to limit discussion. She even FoS'ed Skruffs, which indicates that this is an official, genuine, 24 karat

attack

.

Or, perhaps it was an attempt to focus discussion, not limit it. You, yourself have tried some focusing techniques, such as calling out for a consensus wagon, and so this feels very pot-kettle to me. And yes, of course I was attacking him, his meta posting was bull in my eyes and causing a huge distraction to the town. It's one thing when someone wants to talk about something different, but quite another when the motives are not pro-town. I didn't feel his topic-changing was pro-town.

I also note that, in the same post, she mentions Capri's lack of content. This must be the pro-town read she's been talking about all Day...

<sarcasm>Because, you know, people can't change their minds about a player, and when they do, it's because they are scum, not because they had second thoughts or new content is introduced that changes things. </sarcasm>

You do realize that there are 256 more posts in D1, right? And in those posts, a lot happens. So I fail to see why my original displeasure at Capri's lack of posting (which was valid and shared by others, too) is something you would choose to attack me with. Especially considering that I didn't say he was scummy or anti-town for it. I was pointing out that his lack of content wasn't helping him.

In general, it feels like you are cherrypicking posts and ignoring later changes in the game. Convenient when you can selectively ignore half of D1, isn't it?

For Day 2, Yos takes over from Mizzy, although he did do a little bit of groundwork late on Day 1 with his insistence that the Capri wagon was the only game in town (although he also says that he was trying to get Capri to offer a defence).

This statement confuses me and I don't quite understand why you're saying it. You also seem to be questioning the existence of something that actually happened, i.e. Yosarian2 trying to get Capri to offer a defense. He was very outspoken in his attempts to get Capri to offer a defense, so please don't try and pretend it didn't happen.

Once the debate between Mizzy and I starts to hot up, Yos positions himself to create an either/or situation. Once I vote for Mizzy:

fos:eldred

Didn't like that last post of his.

His next post goes a step further with a vote based on 'gut.' But, to me, it just looks like he's trying to produce a situation where townies think 'well, either Mizzy or Eldarad are scum, so we should lynch one of them'
Unfortunately for Yos, the debate kinda died down and other debates kept on going despite his intervention. But that's OK, because the Skruffs-Rotten Snitch still provided a possibility for a either Skruffs or Rotten Snitch lynch decision, based on Day 1 and - to a lesser extent - Today.

This paragraph of yours speaks very loudly to me, and now I'm pretty sure you're anti-town at least and scum at most. It feels like you don't care who dies as long as it's not you. Doesn't matter if they're a townie or not.

I think I've made my views on your 'public service' to the town by standing on your pedestal and lecturing the Capri wagoners.
As for your normal playstyle, I don't understand the question.

I still haven't seen evidence presented that I was ever on a pedestal, but whatever. As for my normal play, you seem to want me dead mostly because of how unhappy I was about the Capri mislynch. Being pissy about a mislynch is not abnormal for me, and neither is speaking up about it. Some folks think it's a scumtell, but if you look at my wiki entries, you will see that I have always played as town and in many of those games where mislynches happened that I thought ahead of time would be mislynches, I acted similarly. There's a really good example of this in which I want to flay a vig for not listening to me, actually, but it's an on-going game so you will have to find it yourself.

[Mizzy]

Same, waiting on a response to my post.

[Mizzy]

It looks like content in general has slowed down...I currently don't have anything to add, but if anyone has any questions for me (I don't think I missed any, but let me know if I did) I'd be glad to answer.

[Mizzy]

Calling for a consensus is not comparable to FoS'ing someone for discussing players who aren't on your list of approved discussion topics for the Day. Suggesting that Skruff's change of topic was anti-town because he wanted to talk about someone you didn't want to talk about is BS.

Are you deliberately ignoring the OTHER reasons for the FoS? Because I gave a whole list of them and his distraction technique was only one of them.

I only mentioned it because it was in the post I was reading anyway. Nevertheless, it is surprising that as we approached deadline you were critical of Capri, but ended up being strongly opposed to his lynch as a lynch began looking more and more likely.

I was trying to get him to stop being a goober. You can be critical of someone and still find them pro-town and not want them dead, you know.

How? I think I'm missing a step in your thought process here.

It just felt very emotionally un-invested who who dies as long as it's not you.

There has been plenty, and you have consistently ignored or dismissed it. So whatever.

No no, I mean evidence where you haven't misrepresented what I said.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I think it would be helpful to the town at this point if you could put toghether an attack and a vote against someone more often then you have been so far this game; that's basically the reason I've been saying I'm neutral on you, instead of saying I have a pro-town vibe on you, is because it's hard to read someone who dosn't really attack anyone else that much.

It's not going to be easy for me to remedy this going forward because due to obvious reasons my time is extremely limited. It's not easy to re-read things when you're constantly sleeping or responding to a crying wee one. Things will get easier as time passes, and I will slowly be able to do more, and if my participation level bothers anyone, let me know, and I can seek replacement, but right now, this is as much as I can do.

[Mizzy]

Of course, Mizzy. By the way, cograts.

Anyway, I don't have any problem with the amount you're participating, you're actually being pretty active by most standards nor do I expect you to do extensive read-throughs or anything. I'm just saying an occasional "that post seemed scummy, vote:X" would help me get a better read on you.

Thank you ^^

If it helps a bit, I am planning on voting for RS because I find him to be pretty all-over-the-place and wishy washy after a re-read and I was giving him the chance to answer what I had said. I don't find his answers to be particularly helpful to his cause, either.

My suspicion of RS is compounded by the fact that RS is being defended by eldarad, who I also suspect. I could easily see a noob RS-scum doing a terrible job at looking pro-town and a frustrated eldarad-scum trying to save his ass from the fire, as it were.

I am extremely cautious, and I am sorry about that. I do intend to vote or not as soon as RS answers this question:

RS:

Why is eldarad sticking his neck out for you? It feels like when I attack you, eldarad attacks me just as hard, and he seems like he's tried to protect you elsewhere. I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.

[Mizzy]

Actually, despite the lack of any information, I feel that being back to D2 with no loss is a good thing because it means we have time again without the need to post in blocks for a bit.

This does not mean you guys should do that thing where you don't post. Lots of posting, please. We got lucky once, but I would seriously rather not count on getting that lucky again.

[Mizzy]

I would like to politely correct both Y and Mizzy that we are actually in day three - Which means that if there is a cop, he got another investigation last night.

This is true! I don't want to touch much or speculate much on roles, but this is a very valid point.

[Mizzy]

For the love of God, can we please lynch someone today? Like, before the deadline, instead of trying to extend the deadline pointlessly for weeks until we inevitably fail to do so?

vote:Rotton Snitch

Where the hell is that "I agree with Yosarian2" emote when you fucking need it?

Vote: Rotten Snitch

I find it interesting that the moment we start moving towards a RS lynch, suddenly everyone

stops posting

, moving us into a no-lynch.

[Mizzy]

I think (but could be corrected by Ether) that it was a present to us. No lynch and no night actions maybe? Now we are kind of back at day 2 again and we do not have a deadline looming.

If this is the case then thank you Ether

No, we failed to meet the posting requirements; we only had 3/5 posters within the block, and so we went to no-lynch. It's not a "present."

[Mizzy]

While RS does seem to be a good option, it seems like we're on a panic lynch. That's not good either.

I'm not panicking, trust me. I thought he was a good lynch yesterday but we didn't get to get that far. Now I'm putting my vote down in hopes of getting some information because we didn't get squat yesterday.

[Mizzy]

And by the reactions to me I will give Mizzy and Yosarian a FoS
I think only scum would post such surprise that their night kill didn’t work.

Where did I show surprise exactly? Or have you started making shit up again?

I guess this time I figured that filler post every 24 hours was too chivalrous to continue doing.

My point was not that you should not post at all, but that you should consider posting some content as opposed to 8 billion empty filler posts. Helping keep the deadline at bay is great and all, but you have a tendency to contribute very little unless you're under fire. Being sarcastically anti-town is just plain bull and it makes me

Confirm Vote: RS

.

Using your phrasing, I think only scum would post such sarcastic bull as opposed to real content after a no-lynch.

[Mizzy]

Ok then Mizzy can you possible find it interesting that I have been investigated and turned up town and maybe a few have picked up on it? Of course not you think that everyone not posting are scum protecting me huh?

The fact that you and Yos are really gunning for me makes me think you are pissed nothing happened last night

Everyone is guilty until proven innocent, myself included. So honestly, I will not consider the possibility that you were investigated and found innocent anything more than a

remote

possibility until I see a role claim from an investigator with no counterclaim and you as an innocent result from them.

I really think it's you that's panicking here...you're not presenting the least bit of evidence that you're innocent and instead trying to substitute an offense for a defense. Classic noobscum-tell.

Yos and I were gunning for you

yesterday

, before the night phase happened. So your thought that we're gunning for you because we're pissed that nothing happened is heavily flawed/wrong at least and WIFOM at best.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy actually you were not gunning for me yesterday and the vote count proves that.

The day kind of ended early, remember? That's why I voted so fast today, to make sure I don't miss my chance again.

You don't have to consider any possibility that I have been investigated you may continue to assume I am scum and you can leave your vote on me for all I care.

I know, but thanks anyway. I think I'll do that, and glad to know you don't care.

[Mizzy]

They were wrong for attacking you?
A bandwagon is good to have going but not because of a deadline threat. It makes it easier to lynch a townie because of the bandwagon and not their play. It allows a last resort and an easy out even though it may not be the best choice at the last minute.

Trying for an early bandwagon to make the deadline lynch easier is not a good tactic and in my opinion seems scummy. It makes it hard to figure out who the scum on the wagon is and why they were there. Right now you and Mizzy are on my wagon but if it continues to grow because the town is more afraid of a no lynch instead of catching scum then I see an anti-town reason to start the bandwagon.

Using fear of a no-lynch as grounds for yours and Mizzy's vote on me to encourage an early bandwagon?

Seems as though you both are trying to set this up and prolong the conversation until the next deadline. Kinda like the Capri lynch. Thus it will make it easier to lynch me when we have to post every block to keep me alive.

I think you're mistaken as to why I voted when I did. I don't particularly care if anyone else votes or not, but I didn't get a chance to vote you before the day ended (I wasn't expecting it to end when it did) and I don't want that to happen again.

I'm not "trying" for a bandwagon. I just want my vote where I want it to make sure I get the chance. My vote may not even stay on you; if you manage to defend yourself properly and convince me you're not scum, then I would gladly look for scum elsewhere.

[Mizzy]

Not trying to misinterpret your words Mizzy or twist them but I got the impression that you would be more than willing to vote me yesterday but never got around to it?
Yesterday I had 3 votes on me. Were you too afraid of the unwanted L-1 attention your vote might have received yesterday?
If so a nice number two slot on my bandwagon would be a lot less inconspicuous. Right?
Therefore you wanted to make sure it is known today that you wanted to vote me yesterday?

What would be your reasons for voting me today as apposed to yesterday?

I have absolutely no problem being anywhere on a wagon of someone I feel is scum. In all honesty, I wanted to write up a big post with all the points on why I was voting you before I did it, but with a newborn, I really didn't have the time (and still don't) and wasn't able to do that before the deadline block failed.

Kinda seems a little Rolefishy to me...

Nope, it's called "standard procedure." I didn't ask anyone to claim, nor did I expect them to. You brought up roles, not me.

I really hope the two votes on me is to pressure me alone and not to pressure a defense from a more important target.

I'm voting you because I think you're scum. Not for any other reason.

[Mizzy]

I believe that Mizzy and Yosarian are the scum in this game.
I believe that Mizzy played a decent part in the Capri wagon.
I believe that Mizzy has been fighting back and forth with Skruffs to distract the others and to draw attention away from any other conversation.
I believe that Yos has been trying to get a bandwagon on an easy target (Me) and when I pop town he can say I acted scummy and therefore his vote was legit like he did with Capri.
I believe that Yos's vote on Capri to pressure a defense from him would have stayed no matter what Capri defended with.
I believe from Yos and Mizzy's immediate vote on me was more out of frustration of their night actions than anything else.

Classic noobscum-tell I think not
You should probably be wary of making comments like this- everyone plays differently and no scum tell is 100% accurate

My turn!

1) You're probably missing one. If Yos and I are scum, who's the other? In a game this size, there ought to be three.
2) Um, how?
3) Except, Skruffs and I haven't fought in ages.
4) Considering that all we have to go on is scummy activity to gain a lynch, I don't see that making a valid case against someone and then lynching them is a bad thing. Townies are wrong all the time. It doesn't make them scum. This is also assuming they we are wrong about you, which I don't think we are.
5) Easy to whine about something you can't prove, isn't it?
6) I asked for proof and didn't get any, which means you're either pulling that out of your ass or you're too lazy to go find proof.

Actually, there IS one scumtell that is 100% accurate, but that's not it. Even so, scumtells and solid evidence are what we go on in these games. There are both against you here in this game, and your lack of decent defense isn't helping you.

Look, I'm willing to entertain the idea that you are not scum IF you can provide me with some non-bullshit defense. Can you try?

If

you are pro-town, then you owe it to the town to try. No offense, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Mizzy]

Mod:

I'll be going away for the weekend today and I'll be back sometime late on Sunday. Thanks!

[Mizzy]

If you seem to think that there are three scum in a game this big then that puts us in a LYLO situation right now if I am right about my hunch.

There are usually three scum in a game of this size, yes. Sometimes there are different combinations, 2 scummers and an SK or something like that, but I have no idea what weird shit Ether's cooked up, really.

[Mizzy]

I still don' tlike Mizzy's 'knowledge' she has presented abou the scum through the game. I agree that it is likely to be a 3 person scum group, but considering the only roles revealed have been townies, there's no way to say WHAT we are arguing against, so.

I presented

opinions

, not knowledge, based on precedence and experience.

[Mizzy]

RS thinks we're in lylo so he wants us to a) believe he's a townie and b) lynch him anyways? I'm sorry, RS, but that makes

zero

sense to me.

Okay, so you think your theory is too WIFOM to share; I can see that, I guess, but what I don't understand is why you would want to be lynched if you think we're in lylo. The only way you would not make town lose is if you're not pro-town.

Actually, that thought alone makes me

Confirm Vote: Rotten Snitch

because he basically admitted that he's not pro-town. Before someone accuses me, I'm not twisting words, I'm following logic. If RS is convinced we are in lylo and feels he should die anyway, then he cannot be pro-town because if he were pro-town and we lynched him in lylo, town would lose. So clearly, he cannot have the same win condition the town does (win with the town) because he's suggesting that we suicide-lose based on his suspicions that he won't even share.

[Mizzy]

So he's not scum?

I don't know for sure whether he's scum or not but I'd bet the farm he's not pro-town. No townie says "We're in lylo, lynch me now!"

[Mizzy]

lol Mizzy dont falter now that you have confrmed your vote on me twice i am acting as pro town as I possibly can with the information I have and the hunch i got

Trust me, I'm just getting more and more convinced that we need to do something about you, namely get you out of the town. If I were faltering, I'd have unvoted.

[Mizzy]

Skruffles you of all people should know I would never kill Strappado

You could have sent in the vote to your scumbuddies and had someone else kill her. Just sayin'!

And I damned well expect that you give us the reason you think your lynch would be the best pro-town move, because if you hadn't noticed, if you are pro-town like you want us to believe, then lynching you would LOSE US THE GAME if we're in lylo (again like you want us to believe.)

I'd like to see an official role-claim from RS; anyone else feel the same?

[Mizzy]

Yes they did. My point was that on Day 2 Mizzy got on her pedestal to attack the wagoners. But on Day 3 she didn't get on her pedestal to attack the non-voters.
That suggests that either Mizzy doesn't feel a no-lynch is as bad as a mislynch (which is a valid viewpoint, I guess), or that she has altered her behaviour (which suggests that I hit a nerve Yesterday.)

Or it could be that Mizzy feels like she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

Plus, we didn't lose anyone. Normally, I'd be way,

way

more pissed about a no-lynch, but we had no deaths, so I just pointed out that we need to be more careful and post more. Counting on getting that kind of good luck again would be a really stupid thing to do. If it happens again, though, the no-lynch thing due to non-posting that is, don't expect me to be nice about it.

[Mizzy]

If RS had actually given us his damned theory, he might not have been lynched, and even if he still was, maybe we'd have some information to go on. I'm trying to skim-reread over things to see if we got anything useful out of this, but so far I'm not seeing anything. I'm just getting frustrated.

[Mizzy]

I believe Skruffs, too, so as far as I am concerned, Skruffs and Zind are as close to confirmed town as we can get.

I got an item, too, but I got zero information from it. I got an item that allowed basically a one-shot watcher power, and I used it on Cow the night before last. I didn't mention it because all it would tell me is if he used a night action, and while I did find out that he used no night action, that doesn't really tell me anything about him at all. Just because he didn't use one doesn't mean he doesn't have one. Before you all ask, I picked Cow because he was being kind of lurker-ish, and I was wary of him at the time. Still kind of am, for the same reason.

Andy has hammered twice in a row, but I can't blame him. RS was acting scummy as hell, especially at the end. I thought RS was scum since the day before last, and so I have no basis to judge Andy's hammer, even if it does bother me some.

[Mizzy]

What I was hoping would be that someone else had received it the night before I did and used it on someone, too. Because I'm thinking that me giving it to another player might have protected them (Because wolfbsane is used to ward off werewolves, right?) so maybe Zindaras was last night's nightkill or something.

Well, which is it? Did you give it to him or did you use it on him? If it was like my item, you could only use it on someone and then the item was used up...I was not given the option to GIVE the item to someone else.

[Mizzy]

I jammed it up their friggin nose.

Zindaras, you have my permission to counter-jam something up Skruffs' anything :3

[Mizzy]

I think Y is the one required to diagram this, he's the one insinuating I'm fake claiming.

I didn't get that at all from his post. Why are you being so defensive about your claim?

[Mizzy]

Guardian, if you have some sort of case on me, I'd love to respond to it, but really, you didn't say very much about what actions of mine were scummy.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: I didn't like 63, for example, I think I made that clear. I didn't like your behavior on the RS wagon. That's the beginnings of where I'm coming from. Can you respond to that any more than you have in the thread? No? Do you find me so unintelligible you can't respond to these two things?

So, basically two things, one post and one general action. Not much to go on.

Anyway, my post that you didn't like it one I've made before in games that I was town in, so you can not like it all you want, but it's a null-tell at best. Oh, and by the way, it was 62 that was my post, not 63.

As for my actions on the RS wagon, you mean voting him and sticking with my opinion that RS was scum? It's easy to look back now and be against a mislynch wagon, hindsight is 20/20 and you weren't even here for it.

Anyway, two points, one a null-tell, does not a decent case make. But you already knew that, or you'd be voting me.

[Mizzy]

There's one thing bothering me about Mizzy: D1 we lynched a townie, and she was all over the place, accusing everybody for it. Now that she was on the wagon herself, she says nothing and acts as if nothing wrong was done. Is one mislynch better than another?

I didn't say I was HAPPY that a mislynch happened, now did I?

I'm trying my best, and also trying to hide my frustration with the game. Unlike some, I learn from my mistakes, and since me being openly pissed off at a mislynch nearly got

me

mislynched, I would much prefer to just scream into a pillow in real life and move on with it.

[Mizzy]

I didn't say I was HAPPY that a mislynch happened

Neither did I, but the completely different reaction bothers me.

You miss the part where the two lynch wagons were different. On Capricious, I was pretty sure he wasn't scum, and warned everyone so before the mislynch. On RS, I was pretty sure he WAS scum and aided in the mislynch.

I'm pretty pissed that I was wrong but how can I be angry at other people who made the same mistake I did?

[Mizzy]

*Gasps* But I am a Tiggy too!

In any case, just so everyone knows how I feel about folks, here's a quick rundown:

Andycyca:

Two hammers, one scummy, one I feel I can't judge because I thought the guy he hammered was scum. He gets a score of 6 out of 10 scumpoints.

eldarad:

It might be partial OMGUS, but I do feel like his attacks might have been a little too over the top to be genuine. 6 out of 10 scumpoints.

hasdgfas:

I'm neutral on the cow, in part because my stealthy item use on him didn't turn up anything incriminating, but also because he just hadn't made much of an impression on me during this game. He seems kind of wall-flower-ish. 5 out of 10 scumpoints.

Skruffs:

I feel Skruffs is just about as confirmed town as we can get right now.

Tiger Twins:

Zindy is also just about as confirmed town as we can get right now.

Y:

I'm going to have to do a bit of a re-read on Y during this game to get a better feel because some of his impressions from another game are leaking through to this one. I'll get back to you on him.

Yosarian2:

Obvtown. Nuff said.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy: Why is Yos obvtown?
Why do you need ot get a better feel on Y? He was a major part of yesterday's discussions.

Yos has been playing like pure town all game. He's been validly scumhunting, and he has been advocating all pro-town moves. I'd bet my right boob that he's pro-town at this point, and considering how much I need said boob these days, that should say something.

[Mizzy]

On Night 2 I received a 'moonshine' - basically a one-shot cop. It allowed me to identify a werewolf. RS is not a werewolf. Although I don't know who - if anyone - gave the item to me, or even whether the scum are werewolves (if they are not, then the item is basically useless.)

Okay, now I'm pissed. If you had this information that RS was probably not the scum then why didn't you come forward with it BEFORE we lynched him?

FoS: eldarad

[Mizzy]

This was my issue - it was an all-or-nothing thing. I either came out and watch the sky come down around our ears and hope it would turn out alright, or I could keep quiet and just make it obvious that I didn't like the RS wagon.
I chose the second option.

You chose the second option which had already been proved BY ME that it wouldn't work? Sure, I didn't have an item backing me up and all I had was some town tells and instinct about Capri, but I did the same thing you tried and it didn't work. You should have known better.

[Mizzy]

We also don't know if that result counted Eld's item or not so we might really be looking for 4, not 5. Does that make sense? I'm half asleep.

[Mizzy]

I would prefer an Andylynch over an Eldaradlynch, mostly because I think that might be OMGUS on Eld's part and I don't want to vote someone based on OMGUS, even if there are a good case of points against him.

[Mizzy]

Making sure that I post for the deadline block.

[Mizzy]

This is just my opinion, but I feel like the item discussion is distracting us away from scumhunting. Items probably don't tell us anything about the alignment of a player, and unless someone has an item that helped them find scum (good job Eld for the whole RS thing) then I think we should ignore the items and just scumhunt the old-fashioned way. Panic in the streets only helps scum.

[Mizzy]

Why do you think there were FIVE ITEMS that had not been used yet in teh game? Stacking items makes perfect sense.

How do you know they weren't used?

[Mizzy]

I already said that continued item speculation is a huge scum-hunting distraction...can we please skip the WIFOM item crap and get down to the scum-hunting, because seriously, we are running out of time.

[Mizzy]

I agree that this should not be the only thing we talk about, but I think ignoring it completely would be a mistake too.
So here's some scum-hunting: Mizzy, do you have any particular reason to shut down the items discussion?

Other than that I think the scum are using the items discussion to distract town into a deadline no-lynch? Actually, I think that's a pretty damned good reason to limit item discussion.

I don't want it to END, necessarily, but I do want it to

not

take up like 8 pages while we all go "Just a deadline post!" in between bickering about items.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy... you don't appear to be voting yourself... and you seem to be detracting away from something that can actually effect the game, without offering a counter discussion thing.. and not even voting..

Just a big red flag there

Actually, I'm trying to start up a game I'm modding, and want to re-read Eldarad from today before I do actually vote him. The modding thing is taking up most of my time at the moment, but once that game gets going, I'll be able to re-read him like I want to.

I don't want to vote ANYONE at this point without being really, really sure of the vote. I would hope everyone else would feel the same.

[Mizzy]

/deadline post

[Mizzy]

Good response, Yos.

STillllll thiunk Mizzy's scum.
Sorry Mizzy. ^.^

Why do you think I'm scum, though? Other than gut, because so far, gut hasn't really done anything to help you.

[Mizzy]

I vote that we do not lynch until we get an Andy replacement, but that is just my opinion. I really hate doing bit events (lynches, mass claims) when someone I feel is pretty important to the game isn't around.

[Mizzy]

And I should add that if it looks like we might do no-lynch instead, I would be fine with a lynch with the absence of a player. I am not that in favor of not lynching when someone is gone that I would risk that.

[Mizzy]

Oh, okay! That makes me feel much better. Carry on!

[Mizzy]

Posty!

[Mizzy]

I see nothing wrong with Yos' post, Skruffs...mind actually pointing out what makes you feel that way? I could have missed something, but somehow, I doubt it.

[Mizzy]

Happy birthday, Ether!

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, why aren't you voting for eldarad?

I already answered that a while ago, sadly the answer hasn't changed much. See post #1109. Add on top of that the OMGUS aspect since he spent so much time attacking me...I am having trouble pulling apart the scumminess from the OMGUS and since it's kind of important to be right here, I don't want to chance it until I am sure.

[Mizzy]

It's probably up to you now, though, Mizzy...Guardian's leaving tommorow, so if you don't hammer today or tommorow, it's probably going to be a no lynch. I think the two pro-town people not voting for Eldred now are you and Skruffs, and I don't think Skruffs is going to join the wagon.

See now that puts me in a really shitty position because I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't. No matter what I decide, I'm going to come out of it looking like a dick unless I hammer and he

does

turn up scum, and I'm not done with my reread of him to feel confident thinking he is scum despite the OMGUS just yet.

[Mizzy]

Sorry guys, rough waters with the baby, I have some catching up to do.

TSN:

To be clear on how I feel, I don't know much about when it's good to have a no-lynch and when it's not. I don't like no-lynches except in very specific circumstances, though, and I will hammer if I really have to in order to keep one from happening.

I am also waiting for the answer to Y's question because even though I did reread Eld from today, I still get tingles of pissiness at how he acted towards me and I don't want to lynch based on OMGUS. There is a good bit of evidence against him, though, and the answer to Y's question may cement things in my mind.

For those that don't know, I am a very cautious player. Meta me, if you like, but I am very, very, very cautious.

[Mizzy]

*Sigh* True.

Does anyone have any discussion left? I'll hammer if that's a no.

[Mizzy]

You know, maybe it's just me, but having RS cleared of being one type of scum is extremely valuable information. Sure, he could have been a different type of scum, but still, knowing he was NOT option A would have been really frickin' nice.

[Mizzy]

If I had that

knowledge

common sense when I used the Moonshine, I wouldn't have hesitated to tell the town of my non-werewolf result. But I didn't have that

knowledge

common sense.

I have fixed the above sentence to accurately show my opinion in the matter. Carry on.

[Mizzy]

If the GOOD people are werewolves and the bad people are, non-werewolves, then Zindaras/Guardian of course just got 'outed' as scum. This is why I Would like to see if someone received a one-shot vig that allowed them to kill n1.

You say this like you don't know whether you are good or bad, i.e. like you are neither werewolf or non-werewolf.