Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Zindaras]

WOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLVEESSSS!

They're coming. To eat me.

*hides in a corner*

Vote: Skruffs

. He has survived the Night. He is therefore obviously a werewolf.

[Zindaras]

Y should I?

[Zindaras]

When was the last time I started an early day one wagon on you? You mean California? For one, that was ages ago. For two, compare the follow-up post in this game to the follow-up posts in California. And note the differences.

Also, I'm not a Paragon. Half of these people probably don't even know me.

[Zindaras]

Y should I?

Don't ask him, you fool. Of course he'll say not to bandwagon him.

Yay! Somebody got the joke!

>.>
<.<

I do love puns.

[Zindaras]

Unvote, Vote: Capricious

Seriously. A guy propagating cat hatred in a games where the wolves (canines!) are scum?

[Zindaras]

Add Elmo to the cat mafia list, I've cracked this open!

But wait, wouldn't cats be pro-town in a game where the scummers are canine?

Great minds think alike.

I like you already.

*high-five*

[Zindaras]

Yes, just like scum and town are the same, right?

[Zindaras]

I converted Skruffs.

*waits for Cult accusations*

[Zindaras]

Last time Capricious tried to get me killed he was scum, so...

Link?

[Zindaras]

The last time Capricious tried to get you lynched, you were scum together!

Confirm Vote: Capricious

We've got two of them now, guys!

[Zindaras]

Skruffs, the game was called "California Trilogy I: Dantes in Fresno"

More later, hurry now.

[Zindaras]

Let us discuss why the kill was made on an unknown player, and not on B-list celebrities such as Zindaras and Skruffs, or even a D-list celeb like Y. I feel that if the scum were solely composed of relative newbs, they would target a strong player, not only because it would be a good play, but that the weak always want to get to the strong.

Kill choices, especially Night 0, are a completely false argument. Quite frankly, we don't know why the scum killed strappado. It could be for any slew of reasons.

Ah, Newbie 546, review Y's STRONG pro-town play in that game. How can such a STRONG town player not be killed night zero?

And how many people are aware of Newbie 546? And, assuming everyone

is

aware, then the doc would also have been aware and he would've protected Y.

Scummy argument, here.

Also, I think Zindaras is scum. He's trying to buddy up with Mizzy right now. The last time he did that with someone in a game with me, he was scum.

Dude, seriously?

Like I said in Big Love:

[18:46:38] Sir Tornado 88: Esp because of the buddying he did with Ether AND Sacred D1

You may have been right, but this really isn't a scumtell for me. I <3 Ether and Sacred. I enjoy playing with them a lot.

This is like saying last time I saw Battle Mage as scum, he kept putting all his quotes at the bottom of his posts (which is obviously why he's stopped doing it). You're really reaching here.

[Zindaras]

By the way, hinting at 546 was a joke, you shouldn't get so serious about it.

You being? Me?

Please, references to obscure games need to be explained at all times.

[Zindaras]

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

Oh, yes there is. Often, there are a few scumtells made in the first few pages. It would be folly to discard the first few pages. Also, if the first few pages are irrelevant, then what would we go on to get further ahead in the game?

Skruffs, the game was called "California Trilogy I: Dantes in Fresno"

More later, hurry now.

Are you intentionally acting scummy or is this a routine you always do as scum??

*raises eyebrow*

Obviously, correcting someone is something only scum does. I was pointing out how the game was called California.

[Zindaras]

Unvote, Vote : Zindaras

I'm not going to give you the chance to NK me again, And after the last three games in which you were scum, I think an early strike against you is more beneficial to town.

FoS: Skruffs

This is beyond any kind of the crap logic I've seen you use before.

1: NK you again? When did I NK you before? I don't have a policy of killing you on Night One.

2: For one, I haven't been scum the last three games. For two,

that has absolutely no influence whatsoever on this game

. It's preposterous to suggest that, based on my alignment from the past three games, I am now scum and should be lynched.

Thoughts, please? This is the first game like this (a really detailed theme game) I've played and I have no idea how much to read into the flavor text and I don't want my imagination running off with me.

I don't think there's any use in coming up with theories about this now. It's not a question we can answer right now anyway.

[Zindaras]

I didn't say it did Zindaras; however, I did point out that you acted the exact same way at the beginning of California Trilogy, and you were scum in that game, and all you did in response was correct the title of the game and ignore it otherwise. That's a big tell, on you, for me.

I did otherwise respond to it, even though you claim otherwise.

When was the last time I started an early day one wagon on you? You mean California? For one, that was ages ago. For two, compare the follow-up post in this game to the follow-up posts in California. And note the differences.

Important, here. Let's look at the follow-up posts.

California:

Clearly, only a foul scumbag, cursed by the powers that be (read: mith) into being a god-forsaken, evil semblance of a man, would, at this point in the game, use Condorcet voting.

Confirm Vote: Skruffs

Y should I?

The similarities are impressive only in their complete absence (and note that the second post was made before you said anything. If I was pushing the 'wagon there, I'd have said "Y aren't you voting Skruffs?" at the very least).

That's just one argument. An even simpler argument would be that you simply haven't learned: there is a difference between personality and scumtells. Like Sir Tornado, you go on this ridiculous crusade based on a personality tell rather than a scumtell. You're going all guana, saying that one post and one vote is a clear attempt to start a 'wagon on you.

Quite frankly, it's ridiculous.

I *was* NK'd in that game, and NK'd in the game with Ripley in it after we mislynched him at enggame, and you WOULD have NK'd me in Meadows of Sorrow if you had been alive to be able to do that.

I never inferred you had a policy of NKing me night 1 - when did you infer that?

And I didn't say that you were scum in this game BECAUSE you were scum in the last three games we played in together, I am inferring that you are acting NOW like the scum you WERE in those games.

Well, obviously, I would've nightkilled you at some point in every game, since you're even assuming that endgaming is nightkilling here, and scum has to kill everybody. So that's very impressive.

Also, there's no friggin' way you're going to compare this to Open 20. In Open 20, my entire play was based on massive distancing from Aimee. In Meadows, my game was completely different as well, as I was one of the few people who was actually trying to catch scum (since I assumed two scumgroups). In California, my play was different as well.

You can stop running from shadows now.

[Zindaras]

But, neither Ether nor Sacred are playing in this game, are they? Or do you buddy up with Mizzy in all of your games too?

*sighs*

My personality is very happy and fuzzy (though that could be because of the whole kitten thing). Therefore, I'm going to be happy and nice all around. Especially with people I haven't played with before. They need to get a nice, fuzzy, first experience with me, so that they will forever associate me with niceness (and fuzziness).

Yay for Pavlov.

[Zindaras]

But, neither Ether nor Sacred are playing in this game, are they? Or do you buddy up with Mizzy in all of your games too?

*sighs*

My personality is very happy and fuzzy (though that could be because of the whole kitten thing). Therefore, I'm going to be happy and nice all around. Especially with people I haven't played with before. They need to get a nice, fuzzy, first experience with me, so that they will forever associate me with niceness (and fuzziness).

Yay for Pavlov.

Actually, it's even simpler. If you admit that it wasn't a scumtell in Big Love, then the comparison is void simply on that basis.

[Zindaras]

Actually, it's even simpler. If you admit that it wasn't a scumtell in Big Love, then the comparison is void simply on that basis.

No, it isn't. Buddying up is generally a universal scum tell. (although, I retract the "Zindy is obv scum" sentence, still IGMEOY)

That's what they said to pablito in Kingmaker II too.

Buddying is an extremely weak tell, if it even is a tell, and it's completely worthless on me, given my personality.

[Zindaras]

I actually think that we should be voting Capricious right now.

Also, <3 Elmo. ^_^

[Zindaras]

That's just...wrong.

[Zindaras]

EBWOP: Comment obviously aimed at Capricious.

[Zindaras]

Will try to post soon. Busy week, another busy week upcoming.

[Zindaras]

POst tomorrow.

[Zindaras]

So, I kind of think hasdfgas is reaching a bit in 63. I don't think Mizzy's post there says that the early pages are completely useless. Kinda agree with her 67. Andycyca basically repeats hasdfgas in 69. Rotten Snitch's 71 is somewhat odd. I like hasdfgas's 76. I like Mizzy's 78 less. I don't think there is any reason to speculate about things like that at this point, or any point soon, for that matter. Behaviour is still Reason #1 for a lynch. I think both Skruffs's and Sir T's reasons for attacking me are far-fetched to say the least. Capricious's entire play in the first few pages is based purely on going back through old games and pointing out instances were something would or would not be a good decision...ignoring whether or not they are applicable to the current situation. He seems to abandon the approach in 103. Not sure if I like the explanation, currently I'm buying it.

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

this is false, contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes, I believe are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

I actually find this somewhat amusing. Tells are invariably based on popular opinion. I believe jeep posted some theory about how docs and Mafia behaved, purely mathematically. And he was right. Tells are beautiful. But when they get out, they're out, and they don't work anymore. From a pure perspective, however, I would make an exception for some tells, most importantly tells that have to do with voting, simply because the Mafia need to get what they want (dead town) and they have to vote for it. This is especially true in situations where the lynch is close.

But I digress. I love theory too much.

I think the Y-Capricious exchange in 111-117 is odd. In this case, it seems like Y is overanalyzing (though Capricious is doing some silly speculation, in my opinion).

Andycyca's 123 is odd, as pointed out before. Easy talk about distancing. Skruffs's 130 is flat-out worthless. Speculating on why someone was killed is useless. We can't infer anything from it at this point. Rotten Snitch's 135 is actually an example of pure WIFOM. Don't see those often.

I remember Patrick and Ether saying they had promised scum roles to SEVERAL people before roles were actually sent out. I do not think if they were actually legitimately promising roles, they would have said so out loud, but SINCE the topic of the chat at that time WAS about Ether's game, the theme of which would only be noted as that of "werewolves", I think that it is VERY likely that someone may have overheard it, thought nothing of it, and then remembered during Night 0 when they said "Hmm...' and used it as a reason, for the sole point of creating a situation.

I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded.

Why put worthless info in the thread?

Blech, tired, need to skim now.

Y's 162 is odd. "Why is Capricious forgotten?"

Well, why don't you put him in the spotlights? You're not even voting him.

I also really friggin' love the fact that Skruffs basically says I'm scum because I'm always scum and insinuating that he shouldn't be held accountable if I turn up town, because he's trained to kill me.

Yeah, right.

Sir T obviously fails to acknowledge my personality, don't know if it's scum stubbornness or simply town paranoia. Elmo is giving me "cruise"-vibes. He's basically cruising through the game without really saying anything.

I'm going to

Unvote

for now and think more about this tomorrow, where I will hopefully be less tired.

[Zindaras]

You are playing like a superstar, just giving anecdotal analysis without putting yourself 'out there' at all

Oh really? I've pointed out several things, and I've given my opinion on pretty much everything of substance that has happened.

and even discouraging other players from doing so.

You can make assertions, but you have to back them up.

Attempt to look ::wise:: without putting yourself in a position to be analyzed. IE flying under the radar.

Oh. So how can my post not be analyzed?

IE what you did in two other games as scum, that I have been in

And which two games would that be and how is my play the same?

and after starting the game the exact same way as you did in a Third game, that you were scum in, in which you started by voting me for a bad reason then dropped it to look town later on.

I've posted this before (where you completely ignored it), but the behaviour in California was completely different from this game. I started off in both games with a joke vote on you. In California, I expanded upon it, actually forcing a wagon and flinging out whatever crap-argument there was.

Clearly, only a foul scumbag, cursed by the powers that be (read: mith) into being a god-forsaken, evil semblance of a man, would, at this point in the game, use Condorcet voting.

Cease your pitiful attempts to protect the villainous cur, Skruffs, from our brutal and righteous lynching mob! Join us, instead, in our crusade against the evil Skruffs!

Perish, ignoble villain!

Compared to this game, where I immediately dropped it the next post and went on to other things, there's really no basis for comparison. And then add to that the fact that there is no reason to consider it odd behaviour to begin with. We have actually only played three games from the start together (so only three random voting phases). In the third game (Newbie 293), I started by voting voidybuns. And this is something you'll find in more games. My random vote is usually decided by who I feel like. If I do not feel like anyone, I will go with someone I am familiar with.

So, regardless of the fact that you have been scum recently, my actual basis for suspicion on you is on your play in this game. If you tend to start bad bandwagons as town in other games, give me an example or two. But if you want me to just say "Oh it's zindaras, yay, so happy to see you" then you can forget it, I've been burned and I'm not giving you any benefits until I have a good reason to; a reason, through your actions this game, that you are not giving me.

Starting bad bandwagons? Now, this amuses me, here. Where the hell did I start a 'wagon on you here? You mean Mizzy's vote, which was definitely influenced by mine?

Pfft, I go do that work thing, come back, and there's activity. Really, the nerve, starting without me!

Vote: Skruffs

because his avatar stole my fingertappies.

After that, I had already unvoted and voted Capricious.

All you have been saying so far about me this game have been spurious reasons for finding me scummy, laced with lies. For example:

Not really. Me and Zindaras have a history, a history in which he wwas factually scum every time but one. So I am trained to be suspicious of him now. I'm still posting out side of that suspicion, but as the number of players dwindle, the more likely i will be to push for his lynch.

"Factually scum every time but one."

Let's check some of the facts here.

Skruffs's games where he was in with me (taken from his current Wiki, which I assume is updated better than mine):
Newbie 293: Skruffs=Scum, Zindaras=Town.
Open 20: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Scum.
Open 35: Big Love: Skruffs=Scum, Zindaras=Scum.
Famous Cats Mafia: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Town.
Mostly Mute Mafia: Haiku Edition: Skruffs=Scum, Zindaras=Town.
Mafia 68: Ork Mafia: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Town.
Two-Headed Mafia 2: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Town.
Meadows of Sorrow Mafia: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Scum.
California: Dantes in Fresno: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Scum.
Kingmaker II: Skruffs=Town, Zindaras=Town.

Skruffs's Scum Ratio: 3/10 (30%)
Zindaras's Scum Ratio:

4/10

(40%)

So, what do we find? Skruffs is pushing the "Zindie is always scum" angle so he can't be held accountable when I turn up town, yet his "facts" are, in fact, lies.

[Zindaras]

Why do you like the conversation, Snitch?

[Zindaras]

Man, I am so tired right now.

Utterly skimming the thread here, I have difficulty reconciling an IMGEOY: Zin and a Vote: Skruffs from Mizzy. I also do not agree with the Skruffswagon (Y looked kinda odd from here. Don't think he responded to me either). If there is anything Famous Cats (and many of the other games I've played with him) has taught me, it's that Skruffs can look as scummy as hell, but it doesn't mean he's scum.

[Zindaras]

deadline is in 3 hours?

I think we just got another day.

[Zindaras]

Ohwait, another day? Man. I thought the one at the top of the page was right.

I irrationally kinda like Capri's move here in 262. I think it's indicative of him being town. I'm also not sure about Andy, and I don't think Skruffs is a good lynch right now. So I'm going with Andy.

Vote: Andycyca

Mod, I would like a little deadline extension, though. Kinda difficult to coordinate here.

[Zindaras]

I know the rules. They just seem, eh, somewhat silly? Difficult to actually get a real grasp of what's going to happen, which is bad for claiming and the timing thereof. I personally think 48-hour periods may be better here.

[Zindaras]

Where is Sir T to begin with?

[Zindaras]

I agree with Skruffs. I will have difficulty posting over the weekend.

[Zindaras]

Did I post? I do not know. I have now.

[Zindaras]

Capri, why am I suddenly on your scumlist?

[Zindaras]

Vote: Y

I'm going to put this one out here. Y feels terribly off. Like, y'know, needs to die off.

I'll try to make a case tomorrow. Zindie's just a wee bit tired.

[Zindaras]

Capri, why am I suddenly on your scumlist?

Still needs answering.

Also, Yossy, I don't think I'm A-List Celeb. I haven't won any Scummies, so I'm not the cream of the crop.

I do not think Skruffs is scum based on his attack on me. I personally see it as a null tell/slight town tell. I find Y scummy for attacking him over it (I felt it was a very opportunistic attack), and I'm somewhat disturbed by Mizzy's vote as well, but I need to re-analyze the game again.

But I believe I've said that before. Should've, at the very least.

Yossy, what do you think of the meta-ing that Sir T did on me at the start of the game?

[Zindaras]

Zindaras has done nothing except dispute with Skruffs about meaningless things

False. I have discussed a lot more in my posts. Also, Skruffs attacked me, so I responded to them. I have to.

I get from reading this that some people are odd, some people are wrong, Skruffs dumb, some people are right, some people are worthless, Skruffs wrong, some people are useless, Skruffs idiot, et cetera. It seems to me that Zindaras is not hunting scum, rather picking out the finer, minor mistakes in semantics and aggressiveness.

I do not call people worthless or useless or dumb. Posts and arguments, maybe, but not people.

People making odd posts and a lot of the other things that I refer to in that post are, in fact, scummy. I just don't put the conclusion in the sentence every single time, it would just increase the length of it for no reason. But here is the post, with conclusions (- being scummy, + being towny, +/- being null):

So, I kind of think hasdfgas is reaching a bit in 63 (-). I don't think Mizzy's post there says that the early pages are completely useless. Kinda agree with her 67. Andycyca basically repeats hasdfgas in 69 (-). Rotten Snitch's 71 is somewhat odd (-). I like hasdfgas's 76 (+). I like Mizzy's 78 less (-). I don't think there is any reason to speculate about things like that at this point, or any point soon, for that matter. Behaviour is still Reason #1 for a lynch. I think both Skruffs's and Sir T's reasons for attacking me are far-fetched to say the least (+/-, needs more analyzing). Capricious's entire play in the first few pages is based purely on going back through old games and pointing out instances were something would or would not be a good decision...ignoring whether or not they are applicable to the current situation (-). He seems to abandon the approach in 103. Not sure if I like the explanation, currently I'm buying it (killing the - from before).

Ah, but if I had voted you would be calling me scummy for putting a fourth vote on you for little reason. If you had less than 3 votes on you currently, it would have been a vote, but putting you at L-2 at this point is a bit harsh

this is false, contrary to popular opinion, I do not believe L-2 and L-1 votes are scummy just because they are L-2 and L-1. The scummiest votes, I believe are the keystone votes, the votes that propel the wagon to a point of no return. This may be even the 2nd or 3rd vote, or it may be a later vote.

I actually find this somewhat amusing. Tells are invariably based on popular opinion. I believe jeep posted some theory about how docs and Mafia behaved, purely mathematically. And he was right. Tells are beautiful. But when they get out, they're out, and they don't work anymore. From a pure perspective, however, I would make an exception for some tells, most importantly tells that have to do with voting, simply because the Mafia need to get what they want (dead town) and they have to vote for it. This is especially true in situations where the lynch is close.

But I digress. I love theory too much.

I think the Y-Capricious exchange in 111-117 is odd. In this case, it seems like Y is overanalyzing (though Capricious is doing some silly speculation, in my opinion) (- for Y, unsure for Capri).

Andycyca's 123 is odd, as pointed out before. Easy talk about distancing (-). Skruffs's 130 is flat-out worthless (+/-, based on meta). Speculating on why someone was killed is useless. We can't infer anything from it at this point. Rotten Snitch's 135 is actually an example of pure WIFOM. Don't see those often (In my opinion, it's a -).

I remember Patrick and Ether saying they had promised scum roles to SEVERAL people before roles were actually sent out. I do not think if they were actually legitimately promising roles, they would have said so out loud, but SINCE the topic of the chat at that time WAS about Ether's game, the theme of which would only be noted as that of "werewolves", I think that it is VERY likely that someone may have overheard it, thought nothing of it, and then remembered during Night 0 when they said "Hmm...' and used it as a reason, for the sole point of creating a situation.

I'm not actually trying to make a situation of it myself, I am merely putting this information out there so that it can be acknowledged and discarded.

Why put worthless info in the thread?

Blech, tired, need to skim now.

Y's 162 is odd (-). "Why is Capricious forgotten?"

Well, why don't you put him in the spotlights? You're not even voting him.

I also really friggin' love the fact that Skruffs basically says I'm scum because I'm always scum and insinuating that he shouldn't be held accountable if I turn up town, because he's trained to kill me (This one

is

a -).

Yeah, right.

Sir T obviously fails to acknowledge my personality, don't know if it's scum stubbornness or simply town paranoia (conclusion is obv +/-). Elmo is giving me "cruise"-vibes (-). He's basically cruising through the game without really saying anything.

I'm going to

Unvote

for now and think more about this tomorrow, where I will hopefully be less tired.

You still think I'm bothering too much with details? Well, details is where scum tend to screw up. Not in the big things (usually). And, well, there aren't a whole lot of big things to discuss either. If you look at your case on hassy, that is also mainly made out of details, out of an analysis of multiple small posts.

Ohwait, another day? Man. I thought the one at the top of the page was right.

I irrationally kinda like Capri's move here in 262. I think it's indicative of him being town. I'm also not sure about Andy, and I don't think Skruffs is a good lynch right now. So I'm going with Andy.

Vote: Andycyca

Mod, I would like a little deadline extension, though. Kinda difficult to coordinate here.

This is one of the reasons I took a step back on Andycyca.

With a possible deadline looming, I wanted to get the lynch I liked the most of the people who were on the chopping block at that time.

[Zindaras]

One less.

[Zindaras]

We won't miss this deadline.

[Zindaras]

Um. Andy's vote on Snitch and behaviour around Capri (I think?) irks me; I had more than that, but I can't call it to mind right now. With Y.. I don't know, really.

Zindy said "he feels off", I

only really have a vague feeling at the moment.. I guess he doesn't seem to have engaged with the game much, and I don't really dig Skruffs being his main suspect at this point. I'm just curious as to what you think, I guess. Ugh, off to bed for me.

Don't know why bolded part is relevant to your post.

I'm ill, just posting to get the deadline thing again.

[Zindaras]

Still ill. *sighs*

[Zindaras]

Deadline post.

[Zindaras]

I do not think Skruffs is scum based on his attack on me. I personally see it as a null tell/slight town tell. I find Y scummy for attacking him over it (I felt it was a very opportunistic attack), and I'm somewhat disturbed by Mizzy's vote as well, but I need to re-analyze the game again.

And you weren't even nice to him this game...

Eh? I don't get this post.

I agree with eldarad that we need to stop the inertia here.

I would like to ask all the players currently voting Capricious: "Why are you voting Capricious?"

If you think he's scum, explain. Extrapolate. Because I personally simply don't really see any reason why I should be voting Capricious right now.

[Zindaras]

I've already posted today. So it's still 4/6.

3 Unvote (Andycyca, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch)

I want all three of the people quoted above answer the following:

1) Why aren't you voting for anyone?
2) Why are you opposed to a Capricious lynch?
3) How do you envisage this day ending?
4) How are you contributing to that?

And to add to the whole ultimatum vibe of this post, I'm not posting again in-thread Today until at least one of those people have answered all four questions.

If you want a Capri-lynch so badly, why are you focusing on these three people? Except for question 1, all of these questions could be asked of the others.

[Zindaras]

Oh, and yeah, that means 6/6, again.

[Zindaras]

"What the hell" is an accurate description of my feelings right now.

FoS: Andycyca

[Zindaras]

O, no posting in twillight? Sorry for that. Not used to it. Time to shut up and shut the curtains.

[Zindaras]

vote : mizzy

This is not good posting.

FoS: Skruffs

Why vote Mizzy?

So, uhm, yeah, Andy made an obvious anti-town move, so he needs to start explaining. I personally still think that the entire wagon needs to be analyzed, though.

I still want to know from everyone why they were voting Capricious.

[Zindaras]

I would say, "I told you so," but that would be terribly childish of me

and Skruffs seems to have the monopoly on childishness in this game

.

I would like to see an explanation from Andy, too, other than just his, "I posted here and here that I wants me a lynch." Like I posed before, are we all going to just keep voting for the opportune wagon to escape a no-lynch?

What do you think about Andy's hammer?

Eh. I was never a big fan of the capi lynch, but I tend to think that the way he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions while he was the biggest wagon in the game with a deadline made his lynch necessary.

What do you think about Andy's hammer?

[Zindaras]

Eh.

I was never a big fan of the capi lynch,

but I tend to think that the way he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions while he was the biggest wagon in the game with a deadline

made his lynch necessary

.

So, these things really really tick me off, Yossy.

I don't have a problem with him hammering. The way he did it, and the precise timing, was odd, and I'd like to hear what he has to say about that today.

What do you think about the fact he didn't leave time for Capri to claim?

About Andy, because I don't think I've stated my opinion clearly enough yet: I think his move was horrible and anti-town. But his move is also "too scum": the odds of a scumbag actually doing it are slim because it's so horribly obviously scummy. It reminds me of Formula One, where I think we had a similar occurence.

[Zindaras]

Why's that?

I suppose it would have been clearer to say "the Capi wagon"

"Hi, Capri wasn't scum and I didn't really like lynching him even though I voted him."

What? Capri had been under pressure for some time. He was at L-1 on 26th March before he unvoted himself. He could have claimed then.
He was back at L-1 on the 1st April, so there was another 48 hours where he could have claimed before the hammer.

"Hi, I will hammer you if you don't claim."

That works. Pretty well. A lot better than just shortcircuiting all the discussion.

Also, you're acting like the claim would have changed everything. Capri was a villager. He would still have been lynched after a claim.

And Andy knew this how? Telepathy? I'll get to your claim of opportunism later, but this is purely opportunistic. With the knowledge we had at that time, Capri could've been anything.

I think you're being very opportunistic here, pointing at people and saying "you killed a villager!" It makes me wonder why you kept your vote on Y (who was never going to be lynched) all the way through the deadline period.

Well, with Elmo dead as town, we're pretty much guaranteed at least one scum on the Capricious-wagon (at least from my perspective). Me, I think there is more than one scumbag on that wagon, and only by being inquisitive can the scum be found. We need to analyze the reasons people had for voting Capricious. I think that's the way to find scum here (I tried to do this yesterday as well by asking the people voting Capricious why they were voting him, but then Andy decided to hammer Capri and end the day).

As far as my vote went, I felt Y was scum (and I didn't see Capri as a good target). This was more important to me at the time than securing a lynch, because, well, I did not view a no lynch as a serious possibility. We made the deadline requirement every time.

You won't see me change my vote to secure a lynch until I absolutely have to.

[Zindaras]

"Hi, Capri wasn't scum and I didn't really like lynching him even though I voted him."

Um, yes, and I made that 100% clear yesterday. You're acting like I'm being hypocritical here, when that's the exact same thing I said before we lynched him. I would have loved to have a better bandwagon yesterday, but it just wasn't going to happen.

I didn't like it yesterday either, but I was obviously focusing on Andy's decision to hammer back then.

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches. The only reason to lynch someone is because you think they're scum (barring deadline issues). You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking. But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.

[Zindaras]

In what instance is a no-lynch better than the lynch of someone who is voting for themself, on a day one?

Obviously, there are more variables than just voting yourself here, but I never argued for a no lynch over a Capri-lynch. I'm saying that the whole "We lynch Capri or we don't lynch at all"-gig that's going on here right now is, well, just plain wrong.

Mizzy and zindy: in what instances do two players express, in all ways other than verbal acknowledgment, confidence in each other's alignment? I can think of three but maybe you can extrapolate..

Masons, investigative roles or just logical deduction/gut.

I don't see your point, though. I simply pushed for the wagon I felt was best. The fact that Capricious was Town doesn't invalidate his wagon. The fact that Capricious was Town simply means there was an incentive for the wolves to lynch him. Therefore, it is only logical to analyze the wagon and see if there were people on it who just didn't do it the way they should've. You can call this holier-than-thou, but if I had voted Capri, you could've called it hypocritical, so there's a nice damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Zindaras]

So there *are* werewolves? Because other than in flavor text, I haven't seen any indication that we actually are up against wolves.

"Zindaras whistles, and she looks up. Her prodstick brushes Elmo's body, which falls over. There is a ghastly expression on his face, or at least, most of it." Strappado's death doesn't even REFER To how she died.

So other than the flavoring, which we h ave no reason to believe means ANYTHING, there's nothing that concretely suggests that there are werewolves, wolves, lupines erectus, or anything like that in our midst. Unless you just slipped, because you are one?

I signed up for a game which tells me to look for wolves, so, for that game, wolves become the thing I'm looking for, not mafia (all the tells remain the same, it just means I'm looking for canines rather than Italians). I do not put stock in some ridiculous theory which supposes that Ether told us that there would be werewolves in the game only to surprise us with there not being any werewolves in the game afterwards. It's like attacking someone over the use of "Assassins" in Assassins in the Palace. It's semantics, and useless semantics to boot. There is no hard proof for there not being any werewolves, like Ether told us. You quote the DPs and say they're indicative of there not being wolves. But they're not indicative of there not being wolves, they just don't indicate anything (and, honestly, if you would draw any conclusion from Elmo's "ghastly expression", it would be that he was killed by something scary. Wolves? Scary).

And if someone was treating me as a townie, and buddying up to me as hard core as the two of you are to each other, I Would be suspicious, unless I was masons, and even then I would be suspicious about why my partner was tying himself to me so strongly.

I don't even know who you're talking about. The logical conclusion from your post would be Mizzy and me, but I don't see this supposed "buddying". So, point it out.

You are not playing in the townie manner to which I am accustomed, Zindaras.

I thought you were accustomed to me being scum?

[Zindaras]

I think his point is that there's nothing that outright proves there are wolves and therefore the opposite is true.

Yes, it is a very silly point.

Still, Y, there's a lot more you should be saying than that. What do you think of Andy's hammer? Why did you vote Capricious?

[Zindaras]

I was ill/busy for a couple of days, and then I started taking up asking questions again, see 442 and 443.

And, quite frankly, eldarad, my entire point is that most people, in fact, did

not

put their money where their mouth was, see the real vote count in 471.

[Zindaras]

Y: VI is Village Idiot.

I really don't have a lot of time now, and I probably won't have until Thursday, next week, when my test period ends.

One thing I would like to say: It's preposterous to say that Mizzy and I have been ignoring each other. What do you expect me to do, end every post with an update how I feel about Mizzy? Fifteen days without responding to someone? I do not see how this is so completely and utterly special.

For example:

Skruffs has not said "eldarad" since March 6th. He has only one quote from hasdgfas (and no other direct mentions of his entire name), which was March 19th (I'm just ctrl+f-ing for entire names here, because I don't have the time to do a really good reread. This may or may not be completely accurate).

OMG SKRUFFS IS WOLFPACKTEAMMAFIASCUM (using lots of names because otherwise Skruffs will assume that I know too much) WITH ELDARAD AND HASDGFAS.

These supposed links are everywhere. This is just utter and complete nonsense.

A more elaborate rebuttal will be put up later.

[Zindaras]

Allright, let's do it your way, Zindaras.
Quotes:
Skruffs: 13, 14, 15, 24, 25, 48, 53, 54
SirT/Yos: 11, 16, 18, 49, 50, 51, 52
Mizzy: 5, 13, 14, 25, 49 (none of these are in any way investigative, and are in some cases "guiding" Mizzy away from dangerous trains of thought)
capricious: 11, 24, 28, 37
Y: 8, 12, 43
eldarad : 44, 51
cow: 3
elmo : 40
Never quoted:
Andycaca
Rotten Snitch


And Missy:

Skruffs: 4, 5, 12, 21, 33, 34, 36, 37, 38, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 59, 60, 61, 62, 79, 82, 84

cow: 7, 11, 28, 41, 51, 67, 68
eldarad: 22, 53, 54, 70, 71, 80, 82
Rotten: 9, 23, 25, 26, 27, 29l 73
Y: 3, 6, 17, 18, 20, 58, 72

Capricious: 1, 39, 40, 55

Elmo: 31, 32, 64
Sir Tornado/Yosarian: 13, 15, 63

Andy : 8, 19
Zindaras: 2, 6

Never quoted: Nobody


I will follow this up with a quote-post from Andycaca. (Here's a hint: he doesn't quote Zindaras, either)

So, thanks Zindaras. Your blatant mockery led me to a rather unusual find: You , Mizzy, and Andycac rarely quote each other. ^.^

This is not my way. I'm pointing out some really durr flaws in your reasoning.

For example:

Skruffs quotes (from View All Posts by User, so these Post Counts do not correlate directly to the thread):

Zindaras: 2, 3, 5, 18
Eldarad: 6
Mizzy: 18, 22, 31
hasdgfas: 25
Y: 33

No quotes: Everyone else.

Y quotes:
hasdgfas: 0
Skruffs: 4, 21, 23, 25, 26, 34, 36, 38, 39
Capricious: 11, 12
Mizzy: 17, 44
eldarad: 19, 35
Sir T/Yos: 20, 37
Elmo: 34
Zindaras: 40

hasdgfas:
Zindaras: 1, 10, 29
Mizzy: 3, 4, 16, 17, 24, 25
Capricious: 7, 12, 16, 18, 23
Andycyca: 8, 9
Skruffs: 14
Elmo: 22
Sir T/Yos: 27
Rotten Snitch: 28

Andycya:
Mizzy: 1, 2, 8
Rotten Snitch: 3, 5
Elmo: 5
Capricious: 5
Skruffs: 6
hasdgfas: 13
eldarad: 14

eldarad:
Capricious: 1, 6, 10, 13, 19, 22, 26
Skruffs: 8
Mizzy: 8, 18, 35, 36, 37
Rotten Snitch: 13
Elmo: 16
Sir T/Yos: 24, 34
Y: 26 (as part of a case on Capricious)
Andycyca: 30
Zindaras: 34, 35

Quotes between Zindaras/Mizzy/Andycyca: 10 (which, even without the 5 Mizzy quotes I made that Skruffs wants us to ditch because they don't conform, is at least 5)
Quotes between Skruffs/hasdgfas/Andycyca: 6
Quotes between Y/hasdgfas/Andycyca: 4
Quotes between Skruffs/hasdgfas/eldarad: 4
Quotes between Y/hasdgfas/eldarad: 4 (one being just a quote to support a case on Capricious)
Quotes between Skruffs/Andycyca/eldarad: 5
Quotes between Y/Andycyca/eldarad: 5
Quotes between Zindaras/hasdgfas/Andycyca: 7
Quotes between Zindaras/Andycyca/eldarad: 6
Quotes between Zindaras/hasdgfas/eldarad: 8

Now, to go to one final length to disprove this, an analysis of my quotes in California Trilogy 1: Fresno:

PlaysWithSquirrels/Gaspar: 28, 38, 55, 79, 81, 94, 95, 102, 109, 113, 114, 115

jeep/Battle Mage: 9, 10, 14, 27, 43, 45, 46, 50
LoudmouthLee: 4, 24, 25, 32, 61, 74, 79
Skruffs: 4, 6, 20, 22, 35, 66, 67
Mgm: 3, 4, 11, 52, 57
Talitha: 9, 71, 74, 79, 103
Dragon Phoenix: 7, 9, 79, 107
xyzzy: 14, 20, 21, 44
Oman/IH: 29, 61, 66, 86
Mastermind of Sin/Dani Banani/Sarcastro: 102, 103, 111, 117
foolinc: 9, 61, 89
Pooky: 25, 79, 105
Cogito Ergo Sum: 30, 35, 85

Thesp: 62, 64

Thestatusquo/Tamuz: 55, 87
logictitus: 89

Adele/MBL: Never

Cubs: Never
VitaminR: Never

Average scum quote: 14/3=4.67
Average town quote: 60/16=3.75

I am pretty much done with this now.

[Zindaras]

I do not see where in the game it *said* something along the lines of "I signed up for a game which tells me to look for wolves", and I do not see where him not turning into a werewolf MEANS that there are werewolves, BUT, I am okay with assuming that there are werewolves. I just note that Zindaras seems to be more sure of it than I Am.

From Ether's post in the Queue:

Skruffs, you started this circle of lies. >=(

---

"Packrats"

A poor child wanders down the streets of Caret. Her parents have dragged her to the weeklong festival--and for what? The celebrated annual shipments from Ellipsis haven't even arrived yet, and if they

had

, she would be at home playing the newest video games, now, wouldn't she.

The stores are all closed--for the festival, she thinks. (She wouldn't understand yet, but Caret is a

summer

colony and it's been a particularly bad February. No one has much to sell at this point, and Ellipsis has been a lazy, lazy sovereign empire.)

"But we weren't done yet."

Here the girl stops and finds a place to sit. It's the mayor's voice, and there's already a crowd of video game-less kids.

"After the Omega-Nu-Epsilons, there were the Sigma-Alphas, who were lightning-fast and coordinated in broad daylight. Next came the Tau-Mus: fifty of them, each of which was said to practice a different technique.

"Now, killing werewolves is in our blood, if it's in anyone's. But they are fearsome enemies. By night, they take the forms of furious beasts which cannot be felled without special weapons, tipped with silver or ground wolfsbane. And by day, they could be anyone. Anyone at all."

The mayor looks directly at the girl at this point, and then everyone else does, so she makes a growling noise with her throat. Another kid squeaks--excellent. But the mayor's story quickly silences her again.

"Up 'til then, we'd been fighting them at night. That's when a brilliant man--my grandfather, you know--realized that we could attack them by day, when they were actually vulnerable. This was referred to as 'lynching,' though really, I'm pretty sure there's a law somewhere that sanctions it.

"Anyway, we tried this out on the

Kappa-Kappa-Kappas

, who tried to file a lawsuit on Gramps. But they were no match for our new lynching system. Once we disposed of them all, another brilliant man--

her

grandfather, incidentally--

thought to plant wolfsbane all over the village. And the smell has kept the wolves out...for good.

"

There is a howl in the distance.

Clearly, there is no reason to believe that there are any wolves.

Additionally,

On the werewolves:

I still believe werewolves are scum and will continue to do so until we have reasons to suspect otherwise. The "For good" part of the flavor just sounds melodramatic. However, we might have reason to believe that power roles using wolfsbane are, in fact, ineffective.

Clearly, Capricious is scum for believing that there are werewolves. We should be lynching him!

Oh, wait...

Secondarily, I am surprised, Mizzy, that you are flabbergasted where these allegations of you and Zindaras buddying up to each other came from. BAsically since the first vote on either of you, both of you have been defending each other, and I do not believe I have seen either of you direct aNY questioning towards eeach other; in short, both of you have tsarted from the get-go with the belief that the other is town, or at least not worth scrutinizing. That's supcious.

Statement Verdict: False.

I don't mind listening to legitimate cases against people, I really don't.

I can see why you don't like his "personality" defense, but that one thing isn't nearly enough for me to do anything than IGMEOY: Zin

, whereas your "superstar" play leads me to want to vote for you. (I'm not voting for you yet because I don't like flipflopping votes and I want to see some more from RS before I unvote him.)

How else do you fight meta-based cases? You fight fire with fire, meta with meta.

I'd highly prefer it if everyone, INCLUDING Zin, dropped the meta bullshit and play this game

, in the here-and-now. I've said that before.

I don't expect cases to be 100% in line with my own line of thinking; I'm asking you to present a case against a player you think is scummy that isn't based on bullshit and meta, and hopefully has more than 1 case-point in it. I'm judging whether or not the case is a good one not just on my own opinions but on the opinions of others, too, and the CONTENT of that case. I also think that everyone else would agree with me that

a 1-point case based on meta-warring is not a good reason to do anything but eye Zin, which I have already done and intend to do.

Damn, we went from fun little random votes to "I think such and such is scum and here's why." What the hell?

It's page 3.

I don't think anyone has any basis to think anyone is scum yet.

Oh, yes there is. Often, there are a few scumtells made in the first few pages. It would be folly to discard the first few pages.

Also, if the first few pages are irrelevant, then what would we go on to get further ahead in the game?

So, I kind of think hasdfgas is reaching a bit in 63. I don't think Mizzy's post there says that the early pages are completely useless. Kinda agree with her 67. Andycyca basically repeats hasdfgas in 69. Rotten Snitch's 71 is somewhat odd. I like hasdfgas's 76.

I like Mizzy's 78 less. I don't think there is any reason to speculate about things like that at this point, or any point soon, for that matter. Behaviour is still Reason #1 for a lynch.

I think both Skruffs's and Sir T's reasons for attacking me are far-fetched to say the least. Capricious's entire play in the first few pages is based purely on going back through old games and pointing out instances were something would or would not be a good decision...ignoring whether or not they are applicable to the current situation. He seems to abandon the approach in 103. Not sure if I like the explanation, currently I'm buying it.

Man, I am so tired right now.

Utterly skimming the thread here,

I have difficulty reconciling an IMGEOY: Zin and a Vote: Skruffs from Mizzy

. I also do not agree with the Skruffswagon (Y looked kinda odd from here. Don't think he responded to me either). If there is anything Famous Cats (and many of the other games I've played with him) has taught me, it's that Skruffs can look as scummy as hell, but it doesn't mean he's scum.

I do not think Skruffs is scum based on his attack on me. I personally see it as a null tell/slight town tell. I find Y scummy for attacking him over it (I felt it was a very opportunistic attack),

and I'm somewhat disturbed by Mizzy's vote as well

, but I need to re-analyze the game again.

But I believe I've said that before. Should've, at the very least.

I would say, "I told you so," but that would be terribly childish of me

and Skruffs seems to have the monopoly on childishness in this game

.

I would like to see an explanation from Andy, too, other than just his, "I posted here and here that I wants me a lynch." Like I posed before, are we all going to just keep voting for the opportune wagon to escape a no-lynch?

What do you think about Andy's hammer?

Eh. I was never a big fan of the capi lynch, but I tend to think that the way he barely posted for days and refused to answer simple questions while he was the biggest wagon in the game with a deadline made his lynch necessary.

What do you think about Andy's hammer?

Zindaras: Investigations would only be accurate if one was a cop, one was a godfather. THe godfather would say "Oh, this person thinks I am town ; since they are not in my mafia group, they must have inspected me night 0." A townie would say "Is this person buddying up to me because they inspected me, or because they are mafia?"

Statement Verdict: What the hell?

"Investigations would only be accurate if one was a Cop, one was a Godfather."

This really only makes sense because I expect you to not make sense at all and just try to twist everything into your little crusade.

Expressing confidence is not a two-way street. It is one-way, and if it's done both ways, it can either be for the same reason (like Masonry) or different reasons (like one having an investigation, the other just logic).

But this discussion is completely besides the point, since you have flat-out not proven any buddying between the two of us.

We have TWO WEEKS from the beginning of hte day to find a good lynch. After that, We are playing a very risky game by guessing that enough players will post to beat the continually recurring deadline, over and over again.

Statement Verdict: Fear-mongering.

XZindaras avoided the entire first day of deadline, but made an effort after that. Mizzy distracted from potentiial wagons, but posted, perhaps as an excuse to ohurt the town while looking like she was helping it.

Statement Verdict: Twister

Hi. Skruffs, you have been going on your inane little wagoning for pretty much the enitre game now. Perhaps as an excuse to hurt the town while looking like you were helping it.

You want to see Mizzy-scum, so therefore, everything Mizzy does is scummy. That's your methodology so far this game. With me, with Mizzy.

IF she is a cop who investigated Zindaras, there's no reason for her to also think Capricious is town; she only has one investigation. IF she is a mason with Zindaras, she again has no reason to think Capricious (or anyone else) is town.

You may be unfamiliar with the concept, but there is something that is called logic. Additionally, the conclusion of this particular quote is that Mizzy should've been voting everyone, because she doesn't know that anyone is town!

IF she is mafia, tshe can afford to get townie-points by denigrating wagons on pro-town players so that she looks like a better scum hunter, WITHOUT Actually doing any scum hunting herslef, which would keep the cop from looking at her at anight.

Or she could, y'know, not actually like the wagon? Should she have voted? Yes. Is it an inexcusable affront? No.

Here's another one for you, one you will not like and probably will call crap because it doesn't say that Mizzy/Zindaras are (part of) the scumgroup:

IF some people were wolves, they can really easily bandwagon Capricious by voting him "to secure a lynch", avoiding direct blame for the lynch, without doing any real scumhunting themselves, which would keep the Cop from looking at them at night.

*gasp*

It may be true!

So, I will do it the opposite way. The game started at hte beginning of MArch: Your first post was on MArch 3rd. You quoted Zindaras two hours after your first post. You do not directly quote Zindaras, or ask Zindaras a direct question, or do ANYTHING to indicate anything but complete trust of him until.....
*Searching*

On March 18th you question my questioning of him, by saying that I can't Meta Zindaras. You didn't tell Zindaras that he couldn't meta Capricious when he voted him (as I said earlier in this poist) though. I mean, you attacked Capricious yourself in the same post. Did you tell anyone, before you told me I couldn't meta Zindaras, that they couldn't Meta? I don't think so. So why did metaing Zindaras trigger that? WHy the defense of someone that you have no reason to believe is innocent?

I'm really trying to get into this game, but I really don't see the relevance of the conversation that is going on at the moment.
Skruffs, do you really think this is a useful avenue to pursue this early?

I actually think this all meta-game analysis is leading us nowhere (It really bores me, actually).

You do look bad, at several points in the game, and I think I already pointed them out. Especally, your attacks on Zinderas makes no sense at all. It seems like it's all "I'm going to be suspicious of Zinderas because I saw him as scum once and he kinda scared me". If there's more to your case on Zindy then that, I'm not seeing it.

Your metaing was either ignored or deemed to be useless.

WHy the defense of someone that you have no reason to believe is innocent

You just happen to have posted Post 13 (not 13th post, Post 13). 13 is a very unlucky number. It is often associated with scum. For example, in Consulmaker, Primate, who was scum, made Post 13. In Space Monkeys Mafia, Glork, foul simian scum, made Post 13. In Two-Headed Mafia 2, Mastermind of Sin, being scum, made Post 13.

Do you believe this is a good argument? If not, would you fault others for rebutting it?

*Part left out because I do not find it to be brimming with crap logic*

When I Call you out on that the first time and accuse Zindaras of his super-star playstyle, you do make an effort to distance: You give him an

IGMEOY

but then immediately weaken it by saying you don't want to flip flop your votes; ie it doesn't mean anything. You later fall back on that by saying that since you are already EYEing zindaras, there's really nothing else warranted against him. So the IGMEOY was basically just a faux-note, something you could rely on later to bounce attention away from Zindaras yourself.

Look at me, I can see distancing and buddying in the same pair!

*Part left out because I do not find it to be brimming with crap logic*

Skruffs, you're like Elmer Fudd, just having run from a cliff, flailing, attempting to avoid the inevitable pull of gravity (in this case, logic). If Mizzy and I do not say anything about eachother, we're buddying (by omission, which makes it something completely different). If we say something nice about eachother, we're buddying. If we ask questions or find anything the other does suspicious, we're distancing.

[Zindaras]

Mizzy and zindy: in what instances do two players express, in all ways other than verbal acknowledgment, confidence in each other's alignment? I can think of three but maybe you can extrapolate..

Skruffs has not pointed out how we have expressed any confidence in each other's alignment.

Secondarily, I am surprised, Mizzy, that you are flabbergasted where these allegations of you and Zindaras buddying up to each other came from. BAsically since the first vote on either of you, both of you have been defending each other, and I do not believe I have seen either of you direct aNY questioning towards eeach other; in short, both of you have tsarted from the get-go with the belief that the other is town, or at least not worth scrutinizing. That's supcious.

When called out upon his claims of buddying, Skruffs instead claims that we have been buddying by omission, which is not buddying. Buddying is being unnecessarily nice, kind, or praising of a particular player to get in his/her good graces. Perfect example: pablito in Kingmaker II:

I will defend Glork today to the bone. He'll have some awesome moves (whether anti-town or pro-town) within time and even if he's scum, I will not vote him/suggest his execution because he'll have such an uphill battle to fight. He's going to try to live up to last Kingmaker so he's got a tough image to beat. Either he's going to have to look like a supremely pro-town townie or a supremely pro-town assassin. He's already so visible (ditto with petroleumjelly) that it'll be easier to sniff out pro-town and anti-town vibes from them later. I'd rather focus on sniffing out the less visible players this time even if it means everyone is going to vote and suspect me.

This

is buddying.

Skruffs also claims that we have been defending each other, but he doesn't really get any farther than "You FoSed me when I made a case on Zindie *pouts*".

Quite frankly,

nobody

bought the metaing you tried to pull on me. I've shown you several quotes of people who thought it was ridiculous. Y found suspicious for it to the point of you being his major suspect. Yosarian said you looked bad for it. Were they all buddying up to me?

Skruffs states that we have believed each other to be pro-town from the start, but he brings no evidence, while he himself quotes an IGMEOY: Zindaras from Mizzy as distancing.

And even so, even when Skruffs is absolutely sure that Mizzy is scum, that I am scum, he still winds up voting Capricious. 11 players remaining, two scum caught, yourself down, that makes it, randomly, a 1/8 chance of lynching scum in Capricious (from Skruffs's point of view). So, to make Capricious a better lynch than Mizzy, it must've been pretty much impossible (<12.5%) to lynch Mizzy at that point. Given the large amount of days where we were able to make the deadline, it was definitely not unthinkable that another wagon could sprout. Rather, Skruffs puts his vote on Capricious, then lets atrophy, as he puts it, take its course and wait until Capricious is inevitably lynched. Skruffs laments that there is no other big, fast, wagon sprouting up, saying that he is anxious to end the day correctly. Even though both Mizzy and I are definitely scum, it's not the correct way to end Day 1. No, that would be to lynch Capricious!

This is worse than anything I've ever seen you pull, Skruffs.

[Zindaras]

I was ill/busy for a couple of days, and then I started taking up asking questions again, see 442 and 443.

And, quite frankly, eldarad, my entire point is that most people, in fact, did

not

put their money where their mouth was, see the real vote count in 471.

I expect you to reply to this, eldarad.

When I voted for Capi, there were, I think, 4 votes on him, no one else had more then 1 vote, and we'd already been in a "any day could be deadline" situation for, what, a week or more? Something like that? And there was absolutly no momentum pushing in any other real direction.

At that point, I only saw the day ending in 1 of 3 ways:

1. A no-lynch happeneing when inevitably sooner or later we don't have 6 people posting in a day. Could have happened at any time.

2. Capi showed up and started doing a better job defending himself, answering questions and/or claiming, doing a good enough job that the people currently voting him would leave the wagon and go elsewhere

or

3. Capi got lynched.

That was the only 3 possibilities, and I wanted it to be either #2 or #3. By the way I voted for him, you can probably tell that I was primarally hoping to scare him enough so he'd defend himself or claim or something, but was also willing to see him lynched if he wouldn't do that. And when he posted after my vote, he continued to ignore me, continued to refuse to even try and explain his actions or whatever.

Basically, I was hoping that if he was town, that he'd give me an everyone else a reason to unvote him so we could move on, and he just refused to do it, for reasons I still don't understand. So, yeah, I think the fact he was not at all defending himself at that point made his lynch inevitable. And while I only though there was, say, a 40-45% chance he was scum, that's still better then a no-lynch if those are my two options.

I don't think this is the correct way to treat it. You're basically blaming Capri for his own lynch. You say there was no momentum: well, with three people not voting their main target just because they're ensuring a lynch, hell, you won't get momentum going. That's why I'm really disliking those votes. You don't put your vote where your mouth is, you just basically ensure his lynch by playing in on the fear of a no-lynch and not actively trying to get some momentum starting.

And, yes, I know that I failed in making a good, solid case on Y. First, I used my time to question Capri. After that, I was ill for several days. When I returned and tried to get some more questioning going, to get some more life in the game, Andy soon hammered. But, at least, my vote was were my mouth was.

I'm not claiming that this entire group of people is scum. I'm trying to find out who, in this group, is scum (or isn't).

Well yeah, actually. Not the being right part as such, but avoiding trouble Day 1 and then attacking people who did put their opinions on the line the next Day certainly does make you look scummy in my book

Except that they didn't put their opinions on the line.

Pointing out that two players are avoiding each other isn't WIFOM. It's a pretty good indicator of scumbuddies, IMO.

Hi.

-What do you think of my analysis of quoting in 507? What do you have to say for yourself, now that you have been proven to be in an avoidance-scumgroup with Y and hasdgfas and that you have been proven to have been completely ignoring hasdgfas (oh, by the way, apart from the no-quotes, you only mention hasdgfas when you're making your little case on Capricious, and hasdgfas has basically ignored you as well)?
-What do you think of the real vote count as I posted it in 471? What do you think about the fact that only 2 people had Capricious tagged as their top target? Do you think it's productive to ignore your main suspect in favour of reaching a consensus?
-What do you think of Skruffs's linking Mizzy/me into a scumteam? Do you agree with his logic? Which points do you agree with? Which points do you disagree with? Why?

I'll try to respond to some other stuff (mainly Y's case) later. I don't have the time for a full good read of his case right now.

[Zindaras]

Mod

, please prod hasdgfas, who I don't believe has posted so far today.

[Zindaras]

Good to see you, hassy.

I would like it if you could actually post some opinions relevant to the recent discussion. What do you think about Andy's hammer? What do you think about Skruffs, who has apparently cast a fatwa over both Mizzy and me? What do you think about Post 471?

And I'm a bit sad you seemed to have forgotten about the game until now...

[Zindaras]

Fatwa is a religious edict in Islam. I associated it with some specific fatawa (which were pretty much death sentences by some imams), but some background research into the matter (yay for wikipedia) points out that it can simply be the expression of any opinion.

Crusade would probably be a better word.

I'd like you to get back to me some time about 471. I am happy with the rest of your post. Though I wonder what you think about my behaviour today, since I've had a lot of criticism on the Capricious-lynch as well.

[Zindaras]

I like lists. Here's a short, mostly gut-oriented, list:

Y: 8
eldarad: 7 (mostly based on his play so far today)
Skruffs: 6 (yeah, I know I called him Town before, but he's really pushing it)
Mizzy: 5 (Mizzy has pros, Mizzy has cons. I'm just not getting a good solid one-way read)
Andycyca: 5
Rotten Snitch: 5
Yosarian: 4
hasdgfas: 3

More people should be making these lists.

[Zindaras]

Don't expect too much from me for a bit, have important tests on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday.

[Zindaras]

I've got uni tests. Two weeks, five tests (second week now). The biggest and baddest, International Economics 2, is scheduled for Thursday morning. After that, I get home and hopefully do some work for this game, but I also want to schedule in work on a paper this week.

[Zindaras]

Capricious and Elmo being down DO NO DETRACT from my arguments that the scum are Mizzy and/or Zindaras! IF he had been scum, I would have recalibrated.

My rebuttals do. 507 through 510. Respond.

[Zindaras]

Capricious and Elmo being down DO NO DETRACT from my arguments that the scum are Mizzy and/or Zindaras! IF he had been scum, I would have recalibrated.

My rebuttals do. 507 through 510. Respond.

I'm not a broken record.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras - you can post more rather than just endlessly repeat yourself while deadline creeps up. Even thought he rest of hte game is moving on, you want me to talk about who you quoted in another game, presumably as some way to detract from the allegations I'm making about you in this game. Why?

510 is directed towards yos and eldarad, do youw ant me to respond to that too?

Are you hiding behind waiting for other people to respond to avoid contributing and/.or actually scumhunting yourself?

Your holier-than-thou hypocrisy annoys me.

[Zindaras]

All you do is say my rhetoric is rubbish, then say you are waiting for me to reply before you are going to continue playing the game. I'm not being holier-than-thou. You're playing like Zindie scum, and I got criticized for saying that. You pretty obviously have spent almost every single post in this game belittling or reprimanding me, and now you can only say that I'm holier than thou.

"Hi, I'm Skruffs. I've just spent most of the game metagaming Zindaras with irrelevant and crappy references. I will now proceed to rebut everything he's raised against my pretentious metagaming by strawmanning him and accusing him of bringing up stuff that's irrelevant to the game."

I've rebutted

every

single argument you've posted. I've asked you

direct questions

. If you are town, you have

no

reason to ignore my arguments. The reference to California Trilogy proves that the scumtell you so arrogantly claimed was committed by me was not, in fact, a scumtell.

Relevant quote:

I will follow this up with a quote-post from Andycaca. (Here's a hint: he doesn't quote Zindaras, either)

So, thanks Zindaras. Your blatant mockery led me to a rather unusual find: You , Mizzy, and Andycac rarely quote each other. ^.^

Where's the follow-up, Skruffs?

And now you accuse me of spending too much time on you? Oh, I'm sure that if I didn't go through the time-staking process of stemming your arguments, I'd be accused of "ignoring" your beautiful case.

Whatever. If I remember correctly, you waited a day or two after deadline before you started contributing. Do you intend to disappear when this deadline hits, too? It gets significantly easier for town to wind up with a no-lynch with every higher ratio of scum to town.

So I'm town now? Make up your mind.

And my time constraints are not of the issue here. I am not able to post every day. I have my study to attend to.

There's no proof of there being any power roles, and I'm not saying there should be. I am putting everything I see out there, I think I make some good points - you completely ignored everything I've said about/to Mizzy since the whole "group of scum through ignorance" thing

If you'd actually have bothered reading 508, you'd have seen that I do not, actually, ignore what you say about Mizzy and that I do not disagree with everything you've said.

You've just made it pretty clear that you would rather ignore actual casess and focus on earlier cases that you know nobody cares about anyways, and yet I'm the one who's ridiculous for seeing hte connection between the two.

You

are the one who sees this case you've apparently brought up on me as something that indicates that I am scum. I have rebutted your case, yet you still see me as scum and ignore my rebuttals.

What do you think abuot Mizzy's following you onto Capricious

Directly after I called out Capricious. We also see Sir T there, but he was voting Capricious before and not because I was doing that, so there's no following there.
Somewhat later.
And then, finally, Mizzy's following. Which isn't even direct following. In fact, the only real true following there is eldarad's.

Is Mizzy's following onto Capricious weird or scummy? Yes. But what I disagree with, and why I find a large part of the Mizzy case to be very disconcerting, is the fact that there is a

lot

of hypocrisy here. If Mizzy is scum for following me, then why does the same not apply for eldarad and hasdgfas here?

pushing hte capricious wagon

I'm not seeing her actions as being particularly pushy. A quick read of her posts show more of a resemblance to Yossy's posts, being exasperated with Capri's lack of posting.

pushing me away from attakcing you

If you'd have bothered reading my posts, you'd have found this out a long time ago. Hint: it's right there where I ask you a direct question.

and trying to get me to focus on capricious

I don't see where she is doing this.

then, like you

Like me? Y'know, the part where I was off Capricious for ages?

jumping offf shortly before deadline, hoping off the wagon

I don't see her doing this, as she has never truely been

on

the wagon.

and then criticizing the people on it?

I do not see how this is a scumtell in itself. Honestly, the thing which mainly bothers me is that she singles out hasdgfas and eldarad as scum, while they're the ones who put their money where their mouth is, rather than you, Y or Yosarian. I'd like to see her explain that, actually.

Mizzy

, see line before this.

Why doesn't Mizzy's post-capricious stance on teh capricious wagon strike you as 'holier - than - thou"?

Who said it doesn't?

[Zindaras]

Oh, and I've already mentioned who I suspect most and why...those are the people I think are scum. No one has asked me anything about my cases on them, and no one has bothered asking me much without then attacking the crap out of me for answering. In short, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

^_^

Nice coincidence. See the end of my above post. I'd like to know why you're singling out hasdgfas and eldarad from the list of Capri-voters.

[Zindaras]

Making things up to drive suspicion is

scummy

. There needs to be something concrete there and Capri wasn't giving us good reasons to suspect people.

Slightly off, given the fact that he's not attacking Skruffs over this.

471 I need to read a couple more times, but it's quite interesting to me as of right now.

Recheck, did you respond to this?

This was supposed to be in the last post too:
Mizzy's attitude towards the people on the Capricious lynch is really scummy to me. Mizzy wasn't doing anything to get a lynch, and it looked like she wanted to no-lynch, which wouldn't have helped anyone except the scum. She wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri either. She didn't have another target for us. To me, it seemed like she wanted to be off-wagon so as not to come under suspicion and so she could hold it over our heads today, while she was actually fine with Capri getting lynched because she's scum and knew he was town. If she actually was serious about not wanting him lynched, she could have provided another option for us instead of saying "he's town, don't lynch him" then today saying "I told you so" which is actually a scumtell and leads me to a

FoS: Mizzy

What do you think of Rotten Snitch's non-voting?

Yosarian has provided a solid defense for his Capri-vote in 520. I am okay with his explanation.

And yes, the entire Capri wagon (and those NOT on the wagon) do need to be scrutinized because that's kind of how you play the game.

I'll say it again: you failed to lynch scum too.

Does that make her wrong? We, collectively, failed to lynch scum yesterday. This argument is getting dangerously close to "We should discard what happened on previous lynches". Mizzy is right in trying to find scum on the Capricious-wagon. And others are right in trying to find out why Mizzy was non-voting and seeing if she had underlying reasons for that (read: she did it because she's scum). But these two arguments do not cancel each other out.

The "I told you so." You may not like it, but it is scummy.

I don't find anything wrong with the rest (in fact, it's prety much what I wanted: a concise explanation of why you think Mizzy is scum), but I can't say I like this. I'd have to have some statistics for this, but I don't believe "I told you so" is a scumtell.

Somewhat in-depth analysis of 471:

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches.

An excellent point. They are technically the only necessary lynches. I agree that it wasn't a necessary lynch. Capricious was my main suspect, however, so I thought it was a good lynch, especially since he didn't seem to care enough to defend himself.

You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Interesting observation. It is true, from what I can see, and not really a good thing to be doing at all. Since there's no "hard deadline" in this game from what I can tell, you still can try to convince people to switch suspects if you don't like the wagon of choice at the time. Don't just resign yourself to the lynch of someone that you think is time because "it's necessary." It isn't. Make a good case on someone else and a better lynch can happen.

But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.

Interesting again. It seems like just because the most discussion was about Capricious before the deadline insanity votes, that was why Capricious was the one chosen. Those who just jumped on to ensure a lynch could probably have convinced the town to jump onto a different suspect if there was a good case, but nobody seemed to care enough. I wonder why that is.

I can hardly disagree with your observations, but I'd so like to hear just a little more than this. Do you think that, given this, it is truely so odd to go crack down somewhat on the people who didn't actually put their money where their mouth was? Do you think that is a scumtell? Then what do you think of Skruffs/Y/Yosarian?

I do not like Skruffs posts. Although they do make sense in some ways they just make ya feel like he is intentionally leading you. Don't like that. rather make my own observations.

Could you point out what makes you feel this way?

Zindy I get a bad vibe from. I do not like from the first few posts Skruffs was out to get him. This was all based on Meta and the exchange between them had 0% current game-scum hunting-pro town-content.

I'm scum because Skruffs is attacking me?

I disagree. Specifically, I don't think it is valid to exclude some votes as being "not genuine." I don't agree that certain kinds of votes have less weight than others. Although certainly I agree that we can question the motivation behind the vote.

Okay, so if I post that I think Yosarian is town and then vote him, my vote will still be genuine and good? Because that situation is pretty comparable. They're just voting someone down the line of scumminess, while it was just as possible to get a wagon going on someone else, even the person of

their

choosing. Yet they settled for second best, or third best, or whatever. Not their first suspect.

I am strongly of the opinion that those who didn't vote at all Yesterday do not get a free pass Today because they didn't help to lynch a townie.

And where do you see anyone saying that? Because nobody did.

You'll notice that I have not made a case for you as scum as yet - although I note that you have similar attitude to Mizzy with respect of not being on the Capri wagon and therefore being somehow beyond reproach Today.

Where do you see me saying this? All I've been arguing for is a careful consideration of the people who voted Capri while he wasn't their main suspect, and I've been trying to get some responses out of them.

Top page 23, I'm grabbing myself some sleep and leaving the rest of the game and Y's response on Page 21 or wherever it is till tomorrow.

[Zindaras]

Yes, you quoted it later in this post.

Yeah, I should've deleted it myself but I forgot. >.<

Yesterday, today?

Both.

[Zindaras]

I actually wrote a big post, and it seems like everybody missed it. I did think, at the moment, that Capri was scum. I was just less sure about it than about Skruffs (Who keeps trying to make up accusations using some weird logic).

Zindaras, you keep me at the top of your list, yet you're the only one, and you're ignoring my responses. Why is that?

Top page 23, I'm grabbing myself some sleep and leaving the rest of the game and Y's response on Page 21 or wherever it is till tomorrow.

Your post looked pretty time-intensive to check everything, and I'm currently trying to just respond to what's been posted since then, and then I can go and see what I think of your post.

[Zindaras]

I am not upset, specifically, that it was a mislynch...mislynches happen. Hell, I've caused a couple in past games just by being an over-zealous townie. They suck, but they happen, and a mislynch is better than a no-lynch. What upsets me about the Capri lynch was that most of the people on the wagon specifically said that Capri was not their top suspect, or even a suspect at all, and that they wanted a lynch in general because they freaked out about the deadline mechanism. I am hoping that we can break from that in the future and lynch those we think are scummiest, not the ones we think we can get lynched just to keep days moving.

But you've put pretty much everyone who bothers you according to this low on your list, that's what bothers me.

I said I would when I have more time. I am busy at work but I don’t want people thinking I am neglecting this game.

That was the first real thing you've said all day, Rotton Snitch, you only did it in response to pressure about your lack of contrabution, and you were incredibly vauge about it. If you think Skruffs is scum, could you explain why? Same with Mizzy or Zindy. What have they done that makes you think they're likely to be scum, exactally?

Yos I have been meaning to post but it is really hard to follow the thread with the constant battling going on between Mizzy, Zindy, and Skruffs. This is pinging my scumdar the most is what seems to be the distancing that is going on. The three of them have been bickering all game and it has really been useless posts and logic that none of the others are biting. It is really making it look like they are doing this on purpose. I will not make quotes because I am at work and it will get really lengthy. The beginning had Skruffs and Zindy fighting about Meta which did not result in anything. It did not even in the slightest way contribute to Capri’s lynch. Mizzy and Skruffles get into a lot after that and then Skruffles accuses the Zindy Mizzy buddying up which set her off. I think this is all a gambit to isolate these three and confuse the rest of us. All of the votes with the exception of these three are from other peoples observations and suspicions which means no one is really reading what they say and thinking “hey ya got a point Skruffs ….vote mizzy or zindy or vice versa” With the amount of posts coming from them it will be hard for us to go through and sort out the Bull poop from the scum tells from the scum hunting. I have been meaning to make a nice post like this one with posts and quotes and such but I do not have the patience to wade through then endless posts to make my points.

I have the bad trait of not being able to give up arguments, even when I know I've won/lost them. Quite frankly, as long as Skruffs is going to continue throwing crap at me, I'm going to point it out, if only because I need to figure out if Skruffs is actually scum.

Skruffs:

Says his justification for voting/being on the Capri wagon is information gathering and to keep from having a mislynch. Doesn't mention finding him to be scum that I can find.

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

That is my justification: I am trying to get a day one lynch when we have to fight every 24 hours to be able to do that and some people are blithely stalling or trying to entail a nolynch.

You are right. I thought Andycaca was more likely scum than Capricious. I didn't really think Capricious was scum. However, as uninformed town, I am not going to say, like you did, the equivalent of "Let's keep all suspicion on only two people and criticize other people for branching away from that, and then say that this person is town and criticize people for not going in other directions" because I recall you being suspicious of me for attacking Zindaras when Capricious and Rotten Snitch were the 'main targets' of the day.

Yes, I Thought Capricious was town, but it would be stupid of me to assume I know enough about Capricious to be able ot confirm he is town and to give up the only chance I, as town, had of getting the ability to kill scum just because I Wasn't sure that someone was scum. Plus, he was self voting.

You can't help focus attention on a player and then at the last moment turn around and say "People settled for a mislynch" when it's on the player you were trying to help get more and more suspicion on.

Vote stands.

So, this stuff:

(Incidentally, Mizzy's scumbuddy zindaras is not voting).

You have made it abundantly clear (to me) that you have a vested interest in protecting zindaras, over other players. Why?

Mizzy and (zind) are scum, but would prefer to lynch mito help case on zind

Can we lynch Mizzy?

Mizzy is SCUM. D: SCUM I TELL YOU LYNCH THE BETCH!!! If not today than tomorrow.

Indicates that you felt both Mizzy and I were sure scum. You're saying you felt Andy was mores supicious than Capri. You voted your

fourth

(at least) suspect (and you've also said that you only think there is three scum) over three others, of which you are supposedly

sure

that one of them is scum.

You just keep whining that you "had to do it" and there would've been a no lynch. That is not true, as I've already pointed out before (but you've been ignoring that. But, hey, ignorance is bliss, no?). We've made the post requirement under deadline every single time. There was absolutely no reason to expect us to be unable to start a bandwagon on someone else.

If you tried

.

But you didn't. You never even tried to get something started on Mizzy. Sure, you posted some crap about her being scum, but it all ended there. You did absolutely nothing to get the lynch you wanted.

[Zindaras]

No it doesn't. This argument says "we, collectively, failed to lynch scum Yesterday and so individuals who weren't on the Capri wagon don't get a free pass today."
I think it is significant that you have freely admitted that the town, collectively, is responsible for the mislynch. That's something Mizzy was reluctant to concede.

It doesn't really look like her suspicions are based on Day 1 Capri-related actions to me.

No. If you post that you think Yosarian is town and then vote him, your vote will still be genuine.
Then we can look into the motivation behind the vote. All votes are "real" in that they contribute to a lynch.

Yes, but the entire point is that Mizzy, like me, wants to look at the motivations behind the votes, and sees three people making votes that don't look very genuinely motivated.

I see Mizzy using that argument for leverage, even if it is never explicitly stated. It's one of the things I've called her on Today. IIRC, several other players have also called her up on this.

I'm flat-out not seeing this. Could you direct me to the posts that give you this feeling?

Personally, I think we can search for scum more fruitfully amongst those who avoided the Capri wagon (or, indeed, those who bailed out).

That would be Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, and me. Got anything?


A quick skim of Yossy's case on Snitch doesn't really convince me, I'm mostly getting complete newb vibes from him.

[Zindaras]

But you've put pretty much everyone who bothers you according to this low on your list, that's what bothers me.

So what, I should think that everyone who makes a mistake is scum?

No, but it seems kinda silly that you say that the whole "not voting for the main suspect" bothered you, and then everyone who did it turns up pretty low on your list.

Y: Skruffs is probably going to say that now he has accused us, we're quaking with fear and have decided to distance.

[Zindaras]

Eh, I usually use bother when I'm talking about something I find scummy.

[Zindaras]

Eh, I usually use bother when I'm talking about something I find scummy.

Don't go holding me to your semantics, mister. I say "bother" when something bothers me, and it doesn't have to mean in what way.

You don't have to get all annoyed about it, Mizzy. I don't think you have to say everything the way I do. I'm just saying it the way I see it.

[Zindaras]

Can we just keep this time schedule? This is 2 am for me, which is doable for staying up if necessary.

I over-react sometimes, yes, but I do that in all the games I play...it's mainly due to the hormones, to be honest. I'm a terror IRL.

Well, yeah, but we're used to people with too many male hormones, not to people with too many female hormones.

Besides, I'm pretty sure you're not a terror in real life. Just terrific. ^_^

[Zindaras]

Um, I'm a bit confused by exactally how this works; the days are going to be 11pm-11pm, and we need 6 people to post between that time? Except today it's 8pm saturday-11pm sunday we need 6 people?

Anyway, mostly just posting to try and make sure we have 6 people posting in the Sunday time-frame, if I understand that right.

If I'm correct, we don't need six people anymore, but five, since five is the majority now.

[Zindaras]

Rawr!

*pounces on Patsy*

You're all mine! You're not going anywhere! No bars for you!

[Zindaras]

Actually, no. I made it clear that I didn't like how they cleared each other, pretty much, day one. They avoided the point by attacking me instead, which only makes me more suspicious. Now one of htem has looked at each other, at least as a possibility, which greatly allieves my suspicion of them.

Which we didn't. Which we've proven. Which you've ignored.

[Zindaras]

That's bullshit. Either you believe me, in which case I've proven enough, or you don't, in which case I'm scum for it and you need to continue your crusade. You're backing out.

You don't respond to my posts because, well, I've proven all your arguments to be crap and you have nothing to say anymore, and you're just bluffing and trying to make yourself look like you've still got a case.

[Zindaras]

Skruffs makes me a sad kitty.

[Zindaras]

As long as the day is not over, I am still able to post. I do not see your point.

[Zindaras]

I'm helping a friend with her essay. This means I have no time to make some expansive post.

[Zindaras]

Yeah, one-liners, mainly. Making a big post in one of these games takes more time than posting some small stuff in any MD/GD thread.

As long as I post before deadline (which is almost 3 hours away), there's no problem with putting off a bit longer. I would prefer to not post one-liners in my games.

[Zindaras]

Zindaras: So is it a completely Black and White situation? Either I believe you or I don't? And in either case you are innocent and I am scum?

I'm flat-out innocent, and the jury is still out on you. I would've voted you if it wasn't.

Anything between "believe" and "not believe" still requires explanation. You choose to ignore a

very

significant line of posts. You can agree, you can not agree, you can even do something in between,

but a response is required

. At the very least because I've asked you direct questions.

The reason I ask is because you've asked for PROOF before, as has Mizzy, and I don't like it when people demand proof from townies. Absolute proof is impossible without outside information,w hich only scum and power roles have in this game. The information we do have, as town, is derived from the behaviors, both intentional (voting) and unintentional (responses towards each other)

Bullcrap. At no point have you been asked to provide absolute proof. We have simply requested that you explain on what basis you are making the attacks.

Again.

I. Have. Asked. You. A. Direct. Question. Pertaining. To. This.

Respond. Or. I. Will. Vote. You.

Do I have to do it syllable-wise next time, or has this finally gotten through your cement skull?

As ridiculous as my technique seems to be for some people (Zindaras is really hardballing me in this game for it) IT's still a technique that *I* use to figure out what is going on.

I am on your case because you're pulling crap from thin air rather than building a normal case. I'm on your case because you use scum methods. I'm on your case because you're not playing like I'm used to you playing.

Mizzy - Zindy - Skruffs if there was Day talk going on it would be with more active players to be completely effective I think. These three have been the most talkative throughout the whole game.

So, because daytalk would have the most use for a Zin-Miz-Skruffs group, they're scum?

What's next? Yosarian is scum because he's the most cunning manipulator?

Zindaras - why were you attacking Andycaca for attacking the people who were not voting (And thus trying to get a no lynch) at the end of yesterday?

Where? Quote or link.

So which of your scum buddies told you about my post? The only other player who's SN I know that is online is Yosarian2.

Oh, and yeah, after that, we sat down with the rest of our scumteam, consisting of Andycyca, Y and Mizzy, and played a nice game of Scrabble.

Unfortunately, Y was a bad loser, so he killed Mizzy after she won, which is why she's now gone (I hacked her account and came up with some lame excuse about labour so nobody would suspect us).

I'm sorry, buddies, but Skruffs's expert interrogation has made me crack under the mounting pressure.

How many of your posts are bascially saying that I suck, that you don't like me, that you recruited me, that I am alive and so mst be scum, that I don't make sense, that my logic is flawed, etc - and how many of them are actually positing original views on the game? And would you like to answer my question from before?

Yeah, and now that we're done referring to the random phase, let's start discussing the game. Oh, wait, you don't want to do that. You've been on my ass for ages, and the moment that I actually take the time to rebut your case, you drop everything. Why? You're scared. You're pooping your pants because you know that any further forays into Piss-Zindie-off-land is going to land you my vote. And, quite frankly, there is

no

reason for a Townie to behave in that way.

[Zindaras]

So your actions yesterday were not proof enough? You were suspicious of me yesterday and yet you jumped on the Capri wagon to "get him to defend himself" Yet he didnt and you stayed voting him. He hung and you went back to me.

Again I'm arguing your actual case on me. All you have said is that I give off scumminess.

Convince you someone else is scummy so you can move to their case? Why so you can use someone else's accusations to get another townie lynched?

You have been accusing me but not accusing me all game. You have been trying to get others to come up with a case on me so you can piggy back. Yet in two whole days you have not actually come up with a case on me that would sway the other townies onto your deadline bandwagon.

Vote: Yosarian2

For trying to get others to make cases so you can join your deadline bandwagon guilt free. (for reference see Capri's lynch)

I believe Yosarian posted some rather extensive arguments against you.

[Zindaras]

Y: Skruffs and I go quite a while back. Lots of interaction. His accusation of me baiting him is completely ridiculous, however. I'm not the kind of guy who pisses people off just because he feels like it. The fact that he's actually blaming me for the stupid stuff he's done is just...mind-boggling.

[Zindaras]

Rotten Snitch: I want you to make a list of every player in the game and give your opinion on them. A few lines per player at least. No "I haven't read enough on them" or "I have no opinion".

[Zindaras]

The fact that she was possibly blocking me proves I had nothing to do with her death.

Uhm, no. For one, you could simply not have been the wolf killing her. For two, we wouldn't know that unless we were absolutely sure that she blocked you. Just the possibility that you may not have killed her doesn't prove that you didn't kill her.

[Zindaras]

Zindy: What I notice the most about you is your early voting. Or lack of voting. I noticed that all day 1 and so far all of day 2, in your battles with Skruffs you have yet to vote him. Mizzy has been on him since day 1 but not you. He has accused you of just about everything including past games but yet you still do not find anything scummy in his attempts to hang you. Maybe you don’t find him scummy at all maybe you can tell me why your vote has never graced his name?

He's been moving up my scumlist, yes. In the early game, I found him to be more idiotic than anything, with his crappy reasoning. But idiots aren't necessarily scum. Lately, his attacks have been more of a concern to me, but I'm trying to not let my feelings cloud my judgment on him.

Y: I get a mixed feeling from Y, some of his posts are legitimate and I agree with some of his suspicions of Skruffs. But I do not know or cannot say for certain his alignment. I get a townish feel from him though

If you're getting a mixed feeling, then there must be negative points as well. So can you point those out?

HasadasdgASFasfasdf: I know you don’t want me to say I don’t know but I really don’t on hashasdahsd. There have been some good posts from him and he has participated more than I have this game. I will say that he gives off a town vibe to me just by his posting and I doubt I would vote him unless a damning enough case was brought up.

Yet hassy hasn't actually posted that much, especially today. In fact, he hasn't really offered anything in the field of real opinions on who's scum today. What do you think about that?

Yosarian: I'm not voting Rotten Snitch right now because I'm getting a lot of newbie-vibes from him, rather than newbie-scum-vibes. I'll reread about your argument soon. Would you care to offer your opinion on Snitch's other opinions, though?

[Zindaras]

Did I miss where we know for sure what the Gaoler did and whether or not they were pro-town?

Jailkeeper is a reasonable assumption for a role.

[Zindaras]

Deadline post.

Tired.

[Zindaras]

Been working on posts, will finish tomorrow. Busy weekend, too.

[Zindaras]

Ugh, I got totally sidetracked today. Cursed Animorphs and feline attention span!

[Zindaras]

I have fallen for Skruffs's bluff of awesomeness!

[Zindaras]

Okay, so I've told Ether to ferociously poke me tomorrow until I post here.

Y: About you and Skruffs: it seems to me to just be an extension of the way he's been playing so far this game. I don't think there's special significance here.

[Zindaras]

My apologies for the failure, here.

Y: Skruffs is out there. He's departed the human spheres and gone into the spheres of "stirring up shit". I'm torn between finding his posts exasperating and outright scummy.

[Zindaras]

Roles are not important right now. Information-wise, everyone without an information role hasn't gotten a centimetre further.

The people who screwed us out of a lynch need to explain.