Open 697: Tit for Tat GAME OVER SCUM WINS!

[guyy]

VOTE: kunkstar

[guyy]

what are you talking about

[guyy]

why

[guyy]

kunkstar's vote on tywin is the only reasonable vote haha

UNVOTE:

[guyy]

kunkstar's vote on tywin is the only reasonable vote haha

UNVOTE:

Changing my vote from RVS to serious until he shows some initiative to scumhunting rather than posting mindlessly.

i wanted to know why kunkstar was pushing so adamantly for someone right off the bat. it didn't read to me like a rvs vote

that everyone was "posting mindlessly" is exactly the reason my posts had no substance. why are you only concerned with my lack of scumhunting? there are plenty of other players doing the same that don't have votes on them

i suppose it's reasonable to question the lack of clarification, but "slip" is just funny because i haven't even really said anything yet

ultimately i think at least one person voting me is scum but that most of the votes are probably reasonable

i unvoted because kunkstars post where he voted for tywin was the first post i recall that didn't look like mostly "posting mindlessly" so i'm inclined to want to leave him around for now

[guyy]

flubbernugget and commknight have really said anything of substance or explained. could see scum in one of them but prolly not both. rn prob flubber over commknight

screenplay joined in to sheep. i don't like the way he's playing, but it feels town to me. i'm more concerned with the other two

also, smoothblue joined in on it and mentioned i was "posting mindlessly" which was equally true about any of the other people on the wagon against me. possible scum but i'm currently leaning against it

sesq could be scum

leaning town on tywin, wavemode, raya, kunkstar

null on kop, assembler

[guyy]

flubbernugget and commknight have not really said anything of substance or explained

whoops. have not

[guyy]

i voted kunkstar for blindly and adamantly pushing raya with no explanation. it wasn't thin reasoning. it was no reasoning

i was trying to ask why he was saying that. i can't see how anyone would be anything other than confused in reaction to what he was saying

then he posted a real thing about tywin so i unvoted

[guyy]

also flubber, i made 4 small posts before you decided to join the wagon on me

you say that my votes aren't following my reads, but you don't even remember that in the last of those 4 posts i unvoted? your case seems convenient and fabricated. you obviously didn't take the time to look at my iso or you would've realized what you're saying is ridiculous

VOTE: flubber

does that satisfy you?

[guyy]

How much of a scumtell is that, really? I think several people were confused at 23, myself included, just the way it is worded.

and 31

[guyy]

could switch to commkinght if he continues to stay out of the spotlight or doesn't have better reasoning

[guyy]

so screenplay now that you know the "slip" was a reaction test, are you still planning on leaving your vote on me? you have even less reason now

flubber, how do you feel about commknights response? kinda makes you look bad a little bit imo

[guyy]

for the record i buy commknight's explanation for now, provided he follows up as suggested. i was hoping it was something like that. not necessarily liking how long he let it be drawn out but he's right it gave him a lot to work with

commknight, how do you feel about flubbernugget? why are you inclined to focus on wave and kunk right now?

[guyy]

There's no need for setup talk today. There is no gain for any role to discuss anything, furthermore there's nothing to discuss. Let the roles do what they need to do, this setup has been played enough times for a power role to go and look for examples of how to play their role, we don't need to tell them anything. Anyone wasting time on setup on D1 is just wasting words when they could focus on actual scumhunting.

i disagree with this, and i actually really like commknight's contributions

sure, the roles can do the research on their own, as we all could. but that does not in any way make setup talk useless or a waste of time

part of what he suggested is entirely reasonable:

Then we got our Vigilante. I think we need to give them a green-light to green light to kill each night. Assuming we were to mislynch both days and vigilante were to misfire both days, then we'd have two days and nights. But I don't think we'd be that bad at hunting scum. We do however need to create a pool to shoot in each night and leave it to the Vigilante to decide who they believe is scum in that pool.

i think talking about this is useful. it generates content and guides our vig in a hopefully good way, which is more important in this setup than normal because we can easily empower scum and hurt town by mistake. and in the end they don't have to really follow it anyway

nobody is saying it's the ONLY thing we can talk about. so i don't understand trying to shut down that line of thinking

---

so screenplay now that you know the "slip" was a reaction test, are you still planning on leaving your vote on me? you have even less reason now

flubber, how do you feel about commknights response? kinda makes you look bad a little bit imo

Fucking own your accusations dammit

Kop, do you think guyy voting me as a threat after not soliciting any reactions from his voteless reads is something town does? Why do you think he is pansy footing around scum reading me? What kind of town doesn't stand their ground?

can you explain what you want from me because i don't understand where you're coming from at all haha

[guyy]

[not in order]

scum lean:
flubber
kop
wavemode

town lean:
screenplay
raya
tywin
smoothblue

null:
sesq
assemblerotws
kunkstar
commknight

[guyy]

VOTE: Sesq
I don't believe CommKnights reasoning is correct, regarding no wagon = scum. It is concerning to bring up the setup and how everyone should be playing this early into the game. This establishes a leadership role, which he has already exploited in the "slip" and then in this post.

In my opinion, leadership roles are used by players who;
1. have a ton of experience in the game
2. trying to divert town to non-mafia targets

Going to give CommKight the benefit of the doubt here, but duly noted.

it wouldn't seem so much like a leadership role if players other than him contributed to the discussion. he suggested town discuss and decide together, not that he dictate anything

point 2. only makes sense if he's the only one doing it. which is why it should be a discussion. imo it's easier for 1 person to be wrong by themselves than it is for 11 people [with 3 liars]

the other benefit of establishing something like this early before any flips is that it adds to the usefulness of the flip. if everyone provides reads and opinions on the vig target, even the lynchee, we immediately know whether to trust the suggestions [town flip] or take them with a grain of salt [scum flip]

also anyone telling him not to talk about setup is equally dictating "how everyone should be playing this early into the game" tbf

[guyy]

I'm curious on your thought process to give me a town lean. You like my reads?

no i don't really care for your reads honestly

it's mostly the demeanor, the lack of hesitation to sheep, and the way other people feel about you

it doesn't add up to scum in my head. you fit much more easily as town as of right now

[guyy]

that's fair

VOTE: kunkstar

do you think i'm off base about flubber?

[guyy]

what about a kop lynch?

[guyy]

wait kop why am i actively detrimental to town

[guyy]

@mulch

i'm honestly not convinced i'm right about either flubber or commknight

i realize it's possible town!flubber is just misreading me in the same way it's possible i'm doing the same. i don't want to encourage a death tunnel because imo those are generally detrimental to town for a variety of reasons. i'd rather maintain the ability to interact with him in a constructive way regardless of his alignment because that is more conducive to better info for town

for commknight, i buy his explanation for now. i like the content and discussion he's created, even if no one else does. i can see this coming from either alignment though, so i'm fine with people scum reading him atm. what ultimately pushes him closer into town territory for me is how much everyone else rejects what he says

[guyy]

i buy his explanation for now

Here's the big thing-

Where did he actually explain it, lol

and also, why do you buy it?

i just meant him saying the "slip" was a reaction test and the follow ups thereafter. as i said, you don't have to agree with the process of information gathering or the information actually gathered, but you can't really deny that he contributed something, even if you think it's useless or counter to town interests. i don't atm

what ultimately pushes him closer into town territory for me is how much everyone else rejects what he says

This is flawed logic. It's an easy mistake to make but a lot of people here have been basing town and scumreads just on how quick they are voted or how much the town as a whole is reacting to their statements. Remember, we have 12, they have 3. The vast majority of peopl ehere are town, and it's not out of the question for scum to townsided/bus/distance in situations as well. Town cohesion is one of the most important things to have in order to guarantee a victory, so if we all agree on something, we should be going along with it, and not assuming that it's wrong and scum are jumping on the ideas.

i see where you're coming from, but i think it's equally plausible that it's one (or two) scum leading and one (or no) scum jumping on the ideas

i also wouldn't say "we all agree on something" since many players iirc haven't responded to the situation with regards to commknight. it's actually 9 of us and 3 of them. it's possible all or no scum have commented on commknight.

as i said, i can see commknight as either alignment. if a commknight wagon looks promising, i would join it, even though i don't agree at present

i'm not necessarily assuming it's wrong. it just doesn't fit into my head as right

counter ideas/viewpoints are good for limiting town confbias. i'm willing to admit i could be wrong about commknight. i'd hope everyone else would do the same. i don't understand anyone being so sure his stances aren't genuine. that in itself is suspicious to me and is what is causing that thought process. i realize it's a relatively minor distinction but it's not simply or expressly town cohesion that's making me doubt things

[guyy]

wait

VOTE: tywin

you're right mulch

[guyy]

where are kop and raya

[guyy]

are you still catching up mulch

[guyy]

tbh i think smoothblue is more scummy than sesq

but at the same time i'd rather lose sesq than smoothblue

i know that's weird

[guyy]

oh sweet hello mulch

[guyy]

I'm having a hard time this game trying to figure out exactly what to do with Screen's comment. I feel like there is a chance he's just a wolf, but tbh I do think it's best to consider it NAI and the fact that so many people pushed on it is so alarming.

i feel the same

but also replace [screen] with [commknight] and it makes just as much sense to me

[guyy]

damn... this guy knows how i play better than i do...

i am scared now

also w/r/t screen i dont see anything scummy, can anyone explain it for me?

i like the mulch and sesq interactions

i'm convinced that they are at least not both scum

lean town for both currently

[guyy]

Alright, I have a few problems with this. How did you intend to mean this when you said "I buy that explanation." I mean, that's not really a vague or ambiguous statement. It means you agreed with his explanation. I don't see an explanation.

i buy that when he first said i was scum and i slipped that he was trying to see how other people would react and try to draw conclusions from it

i understand why people think it's weak or didn't amount to much information coming from him directly, but it did indirectly cause a lot of discussion about it in itself that i think has produced useful information

i more feel he was accidentally helpful. but i currently buy that that was his genuine intention from the beginning, even if in the end it turns out to be objectively unhelpful

I have a question as well:

Why do you think it's town indicative to just say random things and say it's a reaction test? Don't you think there should be an exact purpose to it and end goal, or do you think just uttering that phrase is getting us closer to the town's interests? And also, don't you think saying it was a reaction test to get out of scummy heavior is something that could very well come from scum? I need to understand how your thinking along these lines, because right now I don't get it.

not random things so much. he called out a player for a fabricated scum slip to watch reactions. i believe when he says there was a purpose and an end goal

yes it could easily come from scum. atm i don't believe that's what happened

maybe i'm underestimating commknights scumhunting abilities haha. to me it looked like a genuine effort, however lackluster, at scumhunting

[guyy]

mulch you have said "wolves" or some variant 13 times

like i almost had to go reread the setup to make sure i wasn't just stupid

[guyy]

raya are you willing to vote tywin with me

[guyy]

where i come from it's always wolves too

just pinged in my head

[guyy]

i asked because she said she was town reading me and leaning scum on tywin

seems pretty reasonable

you wanna join screenplay?

[guyy]

be a cool kid

[guyy]

post 78 is the only interaction screenplay has had with tywin

a search for "tywin" in his iso shows he's said his name zero times the whole game

-i just noticed it's "src"-

anyway, tywin, in contrast, talks a lot about srceenplay and pushes for him quite a bit

i don't know why srceenplay only mentioned him once. searches of his iso show he's either responded to or mentioned every other player multiple times

except sesq. srceenplay never mentions sesq

tywin mentioned sesq once briefly to shut down smoothblue's idea of a sesq lynch in post 178- writing off sesq's behavior as "trolling- town" and saying nothing more. tywin never interacts with sesq

sesq never mentions or interacts with tywin, and mentions srceenplay only to tell mulch he doesn't see anything scummy about him

the three of tywin, srceenplay, and sesq post very frequently around each other. i skimmed back through the game and noticed they very often post within posts of each other, sometime right next to each other, but very rarely actually interact or engage with each other. the exception is tywin pushing for srceenplay

maybe this is reaching but it feels connected. i think we should push one of these three players and see what happens. why do they interact with everyone except each other? why does srceenplay have a problem with raya sheeping me after she said she town read me

like look at this post. srceenplay is where i got the idea to ask:

Ok. Trust my reads then.
ISO kunk just seems to me like a guy with to much information trying to make it fit.

he asked me to trust his reads and go with him on kunk. i did


-no problems sheeping in the infamous post 72
-no problem asking me to sheep
-fine with me following through

-pushes back on raya for doing exactly the same against tywin

srceenplay, vote tywin.

[guyy]

we need more vote counts

[guyy]

no that was L-3 actually

tywin, kop, kunk, sesq

[guyy]

sesq talk to me about tywin

[guyy]

oh i missed kunks vote

so L-4

do you wanna vote srceenplay now

[guyy]

kunk would you switch your vote back to tywin

[guyy]

I'm having second thoughts on kunk.
Still think wave is scum.
Going to give twyn some thought later since his name keeps popping up.

i missed this one

you gonna follow up on this?

[guyy]

that's perfectly fair

i haven't really explained or pushed my stance or read on tywin

i'm more interested right now in how everyone is reading him and how willing people are to lose him

[guyy]

also that terminology... how willing you are to "lose him".... oh dear.

think about the role setup

as town, you should be afraid of losing jailkeeper, because it gives mafia the choice of roleblocking or protecting one of their own from vig shots

scum is likely to be afraid of losing their rolecop and prob afraid of losing their backup jailkeeper. losing the rolecop lets town find other roles to protect and to look for the backup jailkeeper

the difference is town has no idea who the town roles are right now. town doesn't know who to try to push lynches away from. scum does. and they're likely to have some sort of predetermined hierarchy for the order they would prefer to die in if necessary

i think that there are at least two scum in sesq/tywin/srceenplay and i think you are trying to keep each other out of the spotlight

my point is- if all three of you are scum i think srceenplay is the goon and sesq and/or tywin are more important to them. scum are the only players who have some notion of not wanting to lose other specific players. town can have reads and people they'd rather not lose, but they're not going to know 100% like scum will, at least not on d1. so yeah- i'm looking for instances of players wanting to strategically shift focus off a player or players dodging interacting with or commenting much on each other. it seems to me that srceenplay and sesq are both hesitant to lose tywin- why?

--
also, sesq- any change in read on tywin since this last post?

[guyy]

because it's not just about pushing wagons away from the mafia role they don't want to lose- they have to push vig attention away from them as well

[guyy]

i read tywin's post 2 times and i don't understand why he just switched his vote from srceenplay to smoothblue

like is it just me or is a bulk of the post talking about srceenplay being scummy as fuck and then the end is just like 'but yeah maybe not tho he's kinda scumhunting now' and suddenly he's confident about voting smoothblue

like i felt like it was at least trying to flow into a mulch vote

the way it's written feels like he picked the vote first and then tried to craft the post around it

[guyy]

I am starting to think that it is definitely possible that Mulch could just be whiteknighting Srceenplay but following that logic would make Srceenplay town and Mulch scum. I know I did like Mulch’s entrance but the posts following that has caused me to rethink my opinion of Mulch. And to be completely honest with you, it kind of makes sense because Srceenplay is starting to look a little bit better because he is scumhunting a little bit more now but that could just be because of the wagon is no longer there anymore because Mulch came to the rescue so I am little iffy on these two right now. I mean, it is still possible that they are both scum or one of them is scum but I am at a point where I am not comfortable to actually place a vote on one of these guys right now.

But, I am starting to feel more confident about this.
VOTE: SmoothBlue

can everyone like read this paragraph a few times haha

tywin, two things

1- if you think either one or both of mulch/srceenplay is scum, why are you voting outside of the two of them??
2- can you show me examples of srceenplay scumhunting

"i am at a point where i am not comfortable to actually place a vote on one of these guys right now"

he says as he already has a vote on one of them

[guyy]

i don't think i would vote you until tywin and sesq are dead first tbh

you're the least scummy of the three

[guyy]

maybe tywin > sesq > kunk

or tywin > sesq > kop

idk

[guyy]

where tf did everyone go

[guyy]

Also, any player can ask me in game thread to "poke" another player. Which I then will send a PM to that player asking them to post. This will not count as a prod though.

can you poke everyone lol

[guyy]

i don't see post 208 coming from a scum partner

---

Spoiler: post 206

Oh god I completely forgot about this game. Will catch up tmrw wanted some real time stuff but oh well

are you still catching up mulch

I'm here, ok let's get cracking

oh sweet hello mulch

literally just me waiting for content lol

[guyy]

so you think sesq/mulch/srceenplay?

[guyy]

prospective scumteam is smoothblue/wave/kop

yet you're voting for srceenplay?

[guyy]

Spoiler: 166

I'm curious on your thought process to give me a town lean. You like my reads?

no i don't really care for your reads honestly

it's mostly the demeanor, the lack of hesitation to sheep, and the way other people feel about you

it doesn't add up to scum in my head. you fit much more easily as town as of right now

Ok. Trust my reads then.
ISO kunk just seems to me like a guy with to much information trying to make it fit.

that's fair

VOTE: kunkstar

do you think i'm off base about flubber?

sheep to support a wagon lead by a town read

[guyy]

for the other point about my change in read on you-

i honestly had to go back and look. i don't remember. you didn't really do anything between those two posts, either

i guess mulch's read influenced me

[guyy]

my bad kop!

it was actually kunkstar that said that

Null/Scum-leaning (willing to lynch any of these as they are actively detrimental to town):

sesq
Assemblerotws
guyy

[guyy]

no tywin i legitimately don't understand why you suddenly don't have the confidence to vote srceenplay when you already were and why your vote landed ultimately on smoothblue

[guyy]

ok, kop, i got some interactions for you-

which of these players do you town read:
guyy
raya
mulch
wavemode

what are your reads of flubber, tywin, and kunk?

[guyy]

flubber same questions but replace [flubber] with [kop] and vice versa

[guyy]

i'm confused again

[guyy]

VOTE: flubber

[guyy]

kunkstar led the final push

srceenplay and lang hammer

not me or mulch rn

so

wave
flubber
sesq
kop

flubber actively pushed for "srceenplay" is a valid lynch (push away from tywin)

sesq said null read/ no info on tywin when pressed

i'm okay with lynching kop, sesq, flubber rn

[guyy]

mulch who do you think the playerbase has better reason to town read rn

you or me

[guyy]

hahaha ok

VOTE: kop

[guyy]

flubber and sesq-

vote kop and i'll consider not voting you tomorrow

[guyy]

dude flubber is either scum or bad

[guyy]

i'm not sold on kop man

i could see it but i think flubber is scum trying to pocket

scum partner in sesq, maybe kop or lang, mayyyyybe kunk but i doubt it

[guyy]

He did hammer a scum role cop d1

There's room for the vig to clean up stupidity

were you not aware of that before lang pointed it out??

[guyy]

impulse to hammer

don't

[guyy]

VOTE: guyy

this is asinine after all the prodding i did for people to join that wagon

not to mention all the shit i got from you and tywin for not explaining my tywin read

[guyy]

i don't know why people are voting lang here

i don't care how scummy you think he is

half the people on his wagon right now did not vote to lunch tywin. one of them was from an early vote iirc (wave) and is currently cast by what i'm understanding as a not fully caught up replacement

it is ridiculous that he's at L-1 right now

[guyy]

VOTE: flubber

[guyy]

sure but he also might just be weird

i think scum is taking advantage of this here

[guyy]

i think just 2

[guyy]

actually 3 if lang's hurt things don't count

so rn L-2

[guyy]

like maybe you think lang is scummy

but would you rather vote with the dude who hammered and the people who pushed for tywin lynch or with the leader of the counter wagon and someone who actively pushed away from a tywin lynch

[guyy]

kunk i would understand you voting lang but i don't like that you're okay leaving it there as L-1

[guyy]

oh fuck i thought ironstove was wavemode replacement

kunk wtf are you doing voting with sesq flubber and kop

[guyy]

he's well aware:

l-1

Not having the votecount messes up numbering, but I think you're right: kop, ironstove, flubbernugget, myself

[guyy]

also, for whichever of those 3 is not scum, why are you willingly repeating your mistakes lol

[guyy]

actually i think maybe sesq/kop is more likely than sesq/flubber

replacing into that slot and thinking the only reason to scumread sesq is low content volume

maybe they think it's safe to sheep

still think flubber/kop is possible or flubber/??

[guyy]

willing to switch to kop for today

[guyy]

VOTE: kop

although the last post is a good one

i'm currently torn on massclaim

i'm inclined to say if we do, we claim in this order:

kop
flubber
sesq
lang
kunk
whoever else

[guyy]

VOTE: Lang Buddha

Reason: Jealousy

this is L-1 and a terrible vote

can you please at the very least elaborate

[guyy]

Ok here's why we are not massclaiming:
9 players. 3 town PRs. An optimal claim strategy here is for all scum to claim vanilla, thus making the lynch pool 6/9. Then scum knows exactly our PR players and gets free shots off. It's not worth losing power roles for 6/9 lynch pool. That's why we wait a day.

here's the thing though

not everyone has to claim

some of the more obvious town players (group A) can be exempt from this, as well as the players we're not really trying to focus on now but who still might be scum. right now that means guyy, mulch, srceenplay

this offers a large enough buffer i think (1/3 of the players) that scum still has to do a bit of guesswork. this is probably fine for two reasons:
1. we're a little overpowered here atm
2. it obfuscates exactly what information scum is getting and allows PRs to draw some conclusions that scum might not be able to just yet

the following players (group B) should, if claiming, only claim PR or not PR:
lang
kunk
not_mafia

the following (group C) should fullclaim:
flubber
kop
ironstove

i find it at least noteworthy that the most suspect (group C) are the ones fighting hardest against a massclaim. even if the points made there are viable or even good, i don't think they're coming from town

lang is right that this sort of strategy, while possibly helping scum, vastly reduces the odds of town PRs fucking up


a PR outside of group A is probably looking to target within group B or C anyway, so this will help narrow that down. specifically, i'd expect vig to target within C, rolecop to target within B, and jailkeeper to target within B or C

scum is likely looking to target within group A (i'd think)

thinking about it this way, i think it benefits town much more than it benefits scum. keep in mind that the goal of scum is not simply to eliminate all town PRs but to win the game. a part of this is getting rid of largely townread players (group A). imo that is often more important than them eliminating PRs. the only exception is that they're likely trying to find jailkeeper pretty hard. generally, though, i think group C not being entirely genuine and is playing to our fears of:
1. lang being scum
2. losing PRs

but we should keep in mind that losing PRs from town fuckups is less likely if we are strategic about it in some way. we do not have to tell scum everything

[guyy]

lang

seriously chill lmao

i'm like the one pushing for you being town the most

but like you're out of your mind if you think that the playerbase is townreading you right now. what game have you been paying attention to? of course you yourself are going to think you have the biggest reason to be townread. i think the same about myself, and so does mulch (we went through this)

but the groupings were not based on how players perceive themselves. because that's useless. it's based on everyones perceptions. no one outside of flubber being stupid has given any inclination that they feel mulch or myself are scum. you have been at L-1 two different times with different wagons

i get that you're doing the persona thing or whatever and i'm into it if i'm being completely honest but you have to also realize you're not really doing a great job at expressing your ideas in a way that is conducive to people following you. so no, you are very much not the one that deserves the most cred. the fact that you think that ultimately suggests otherwise. if you think hammering gives you such high town cred, why should i believe you wouldn't have thought the same as scum? you would've already had that idea in your head prior to hammering. but it's bullshit lol

the general idea is how likely is someone to be seriously lynched. in my head, the playerbase is pretty neatly separated into the groups i laid out in that regard. you do not belong in group A. i have also fought kinda hard on you not belonging in group C, so i don't exactly know what you're bitching about here


also, there's a difference between losing a PR to vig and losing a PR to scum. vig is actively trying to avoid doing this and finding scum. scum is doing the exact opposite. so no, they are not the same odds. and especially not if the plan i suggested is implemented

[guyy]

also, kunk-

in an ideal mafia game, we would've coordinated better and put the three people in group C at L-1 and forced a claim already anyway

i say we start with that and work our way up to group B if necessary

honestly this hurts team scum. they want to kill in group A. at this point it's counter productive for them to kill in group C because they're leaving towny players alive and getting rid of people we want to lynch anyway. if we give them info about these people it's going to force them to make a hard choice. this is good for town. also, the vig knows where not to target in group C

[guyy]

mulch i've suspected that post was coming from you for a lot longer than you realize

at the very least i can tell you if we're both alive another day or 2 i equally suspect your suspicions will go away

and i have been excited to be able to potentially be on the flip side and have to watch out for scum!mulch fucking on me just the same

something you'll learn about me is that i like to try to manipulate games in a way that is most fun for me. one of the other reasons i kept you around that game is because i enjoy your presence in games

so i'm gonna say on the record if i am scum here, there's no way i kill mulch

ideally that helps keep you alive so we can have fun lol

[guyy]

group A is people who will not be lynched today no matter how much scum wants it

group B is people who may be lynched is we're stupid about it

group C is people who should be lynched

again, lang, chill

[guyy]

i don't care how catastrophic a play it would be if in your mind in confirms you

which you keep arguing for

so it's nullified sorry

[guyy]

what am i refusing exactly

[guyy]

i'd like to know how i'm debating so much without arguments

that seems kinda cool

[guyy]

you're annoying rn

[guyy]

vote kop

[guyy]

ironstove did you just make all that up

[guyy]

oh i see

i was already voting kop

i was telling lang he should be useful instead of annoying and vote kop

[guyy]

- lang is not in group A
- lang is not the most towny
- i don't want a massclaim

where did you get these things from

[guyy]

can you poke everyone again lol

[guyy]

letting this stall favors scum i think

[guyy]

kop - full claim

[guyy]

wait no don't

[guyy]

Vote: kop.

I'm in on Lang's plan I suppose. Note that with a mass claim we are guaranteed to lose a PR tonight since we have a JK rather than a doctor, there's no way to save here. Also Lang has pushed hard enough for this that it's unlikely he's scum. Its too easy to do the opposite of what he's done and seem town so him putting himself out there is probably good enough. I'm putting kop here to L-1 so he should begin the mass claim.

?

this is wrong

jk saves too

anyway - we lynch flubber here and tentatively tell rolecop to target kop

jk can choose whether or not to

if kop is telling the truth scum has to risk the kill not going through

d3 kop full claims. if rolecop, we wait for cc. if not rolecop, rolecop can verify or at least will know conclusively whether kop is scum (backup jk shows as such, vanilla result shows kop is not pr)

[guyy]

VOTE: flubber

kop vote flubber

[guyy]

also ideally vig doesn't shoot here so we have a greater chance of rolecop surviving but they're gonna do what they want

[guyy]

this is different

we know the roles in this game and we know it's potentially detrimental for him to say exactly what he is

also, there's a good chance we can verify it d3 anyways

[guyy]

knowing specifically what kop is tells us whether or not kop can be protected from kills

we don't need to find out right now

[guyy]

jk doesn't 100% have to jail kop

and all i see happening there is kop being the kill if they're jk. if they're not jk, fullclaim is effectively the same as not fullclaiming. so there's no benefit? again, that responsibility can be alleviated immediately at the beginning of d3

or massclaim outs our jk

in both scenarios scum has backup jk by n3 (or if kop is not jk, they get free info and town gains nothing)

-

or we can do what i said and possibly survive to d3 with all of our PRs. and know whether kop is scum definitively

[guyy]

you're so afraid of scum getting jk you don't realize you're also setting them up to not only gain the power but to be able to point the power perfectly once they have it

[guyy]

didn't expect a PR to be in group C

i did object to a massclaim. i provided an alternative

i still think sesq and flubber should claim too but they're not going to. i don't want anyone else to claim d2 because i don't see how it will guide our lynch or our PRs n2 more than they already should be. and i do see a lot of ways it will guide scum

cc can happen d3 after full claim

[guyy]

flubber was already at L-1 and didn't claim iirc

[guyy]

Guy don't tunnel me. It won't end well.

what does this mean

i read it as a soft claim

are you the last PR

[guyy]

ironstove

fullclaim then pick srceenplay

i don't see how this isn't going to lead to us losing jk but whatever

[guyy]

^

[guyy]

i agree but i still think flubber is better here

[guyy]

also srceenplay you also said "i'll get to this later"

i definitely expected an eventual follow up very different than than you're just vanilla

[guyy]

you are definitely way more likely to be scum now srceenplay

[guyy]

Guy don't tunnel me. It won't end well.

I'll get to this later.

if you're vt, wtf did you have to get to later

also, it's both that that's odd and that it's a portion of why i was townreading you

so if it's just nothing then the only reason you're not scum is that you were the counterwagon and pushed for by tywin from early on

which is still good enough reason not to lynch you now

but i could see you being scum here

[guyy]

i'm concerned that there was something to get to and suddenly now there's not

[guyy]

lang would you settle for flubber with me

[guyy]

not pr

[guyy]

mulch go next

[guyy]

does that mean it was you

[guyy]

i meant mulch

[guyy]

i'll go ahead and take advantage of this then to hopefully protect our outed PRs

i might be the hidden PR

if i am, i'm jailkeeper, and i'm gonna block either kop or ironstove

fight me scum i dare you

[guyy]

in any case,

people not to lynch:
kop
ironstove

people to maybe lynch:
srceenplay
guyy
mulch
lang

people to definitely lynch:
kunkstar
flubber
not_mafia

agree/disagree?

[guyy]

You really put yourself in the maybe pile?

I think mulch and kunk should be together somewhere in between maybe and definitely as an either/or

i think mulch and i should be in a group in between the first and second but it's not useful here really. wouldn't it have been more noteworthy if i had included myself with PR claims

i'm also playing around with the possibility of multiple PRs not claiming, making one of kop/ironstove scum. don't know how likely this is but it's certainly possible

[guyy]

why not flubber is a better question

[guyy]

Why Flubber? Why not screenplay?

Flubber is guyy's push and prior to the claiming stuff I felt like he had the best read on the game. Screenplay's outbursting here in the last two pages didn't really ring as scummy to me, and prior to that he was null to me as nothing he's said has been notable.

i don't think i like this post...

mulch does this look like scum to you

[guyy]

I'm sticking on Lang until I get through my work today, then I'll see if kops worth moving to. I think guyy has a pretty good handle on the game right now.

?

[guyy]

yeah he is mysteriously absent

[guyy]

why are you pandering to me

[guyy]

lang why are you suddenly aware of the fact that you could feasibly not be constructive

might've been cool for you to realize that much earlier in the day

[guyy]

I'm not voting outside of flubber and NM

not even mulch?

[guyy]

kunkstar's vote on tywin is the only reasonable vote haha

UNVOTE:

WTF was so funny about this anyway, ah?

yeah this was rvs and he was the first to use reasoning

i was town reading him for awhile until mulch talked sense into me

[guyy]

lang right now you're more tied to flubber than kunk is

[guyy]

any time i'm contrary you get upset about it like it's the worst thing anyone has ever done

i said that because kunk voted flubber immediately before you said that. half the shit you say doesn't seem to have any basis in reality

i can change my avatar if you want but i don't think that will solve anything lol

[guyy]

i'm not sure lang's frustration is genuine

[guyy]

like i almost wanna unvote and go with kunk because lang is so insane

[guyy]

UNVOTE:

lang why isn't srceenplay an option for you

[guyy]

ok, fair, you're right. not cool to call you insane

but i'm also allowed to believe your issue with me is as fabricated as your persona and disbelieve you because of it

[guyy]

Well go mindfakk yourself and your insane groups eh?

yeah actually i don't believe you so report away dude

if you're actually town i'm pretty sure you're gonna lose the game for us anyway

[guyy]

i think lang is prob vigilante that fucked up and is trying to recover from it

or scum that is trying to grasp at any straw available

[guyy]

Another note to the vig: Even though I can understand the reasoning behind why smooth blue might have been shot, I don't think it was a good kill. Shooting players because you 'think or suspect' they might be scum rather than have a strong confidence in your read will greatly hurt town. In such a situation, it is better to forgo shooting that night and try to gather more information before you make a decision.

Anyway, think hard before you decide to take another shot tonight because we're currently at 7:2 and if you miss your shot again, it will be 4:2 MYLO if you get night killed.

So you're saying you're not the vig, which is great for scum to know, man, but still lobby against the mass claim, hmm? despite you clearly thinking the vig might be an idiot and a threat to himself and others, man?! Would you be this stupid as town? We don't need you around if you are, you know?

this exchange is weird

why did no one question why ironstove thinks smoothblue was the vig kill

lang why is it okay to call people stupid and insane but when someone does it to you you threaten to report

[guyy]

Unless PRs can settle on a lynch it looks like Flubber is it, man.

lang right now you're more tied to flubber than kunk is

I don't know why you keep pissing me off like you do, man, but you do, man. All the joy I've felt when Tywin flipped rolecop got overshadowed by your shitty posting, you know? I just hope to get a couple of bragons out of this game and then I don't ever want to play with you again, honestly. Fakk your avatar, eh?

you switched from kunk to flubber and said this

srceenplay is a currently valid wagon you seemed conveniently unaware of

[guyy]

you have no issue with me yet want to report me and never play with me again

that sounds like an issue

[guyy]

dude i'm not one of the people pushing for srceenplay

have you missed all of mulchs posts the last 3 pages? go read those for the case

it's not mine. i just pointed out you seem unaware

[guyy]

why do you want me to tell you what other people think

[guyy]

unaware of

What is your deal, man, eh? Are you incapable of dealing with reality or what, eh? You always need to distort it, man. Never mind what I'm aware of, I ask you what the case on Screenplay is and you do what, man, insinuate shit again?[/quote]

calling people insane not okay

defining insanity okay

got it.

[guyy]

whoops broke the quote

[guyy]

i'm gonna walk away from this for a minute cause it feels kinda out of hand

[guyy]

oh are you ironstove

i must be out of touch with reality or something

i thought for sure that was another player i was talking about. not lang

my bad

i must need hand holding more than i thought haha

[guyy]

i took issue with how easily you throw around that things and people are stupid or insane but threaten to report people when anyone says it about you

you can't have both

i also separately was noting in the process that no one questioned ironstove about that. it wasn't a jab at you at all. if that makes me stupid and out of touch with the game okay i'll accept that. but no one else really spoke to it so it seemed noteworthy

[guyy]

i think you are inferring a lot more than i'm intending to insinuate generally

i'll try to be more careful with the way i explain or word things

[guyy]

the only reasons i think you are scummy:

1. you think the hammer confirms you as town and get upset when people disagree
2. you were seemingly or strategically not aware of the srceen wagon OR case, so much so that you demanded of a person not even on the wagon to explain the case to you

that's it

and from that i wonder if the persona and frustration are attempts at seeming genuine

[guyy]

am i allowed to swap "frustrated" for "pissed off" here, then?

I don't know why you keep pissing me off like you do, man, but you do, man. All the joy I've felt when Tywin flipped rolecop got overshadowed by your shitty posting, you know? I just hope to get a couple of bragons out of this game and then I don't ever want to play with you again, honestly. Fakk your avatar, eh?

i don't understand this. it does not seem genuine. none of it

also, you "insinuating" 3 separate players stupid:

Kop, you sure that's how you wanna play this, man? If so you might as well claim now, eh? Because I just fakking quoted those maddafakkin posts and there's no way someone can tell me what you told me without lying, being stupid or tl;dr, man.

So you're saying you're not the vig, which is great for scum to know, man, but still lobby against the mass claim, hmm? despite you clearly thinking the vig might be an idiot and a threat to himself and others, man?! Would you be this stupid as town? We don't need you around if you are, you know?

You are surprisingly good at sniffing out the one flaw in all of that, eh? I don't think this makes kunk town, man. The one time his apparent stupidity would be in his best interest he turns out to be Sherlock Holmes, ah?

are you sure i'm the one of the two of us with issues with reality here

should i threaten to report you if you mention my "problem with reality" again?

[guyy]

Unless PRs can settle on a lynch it looks like Flubber is it, man.

explain.

why does it look like it's flubber unless PRs can settle on a lynch

why is srceenplay not an option here? why didn't you mention him? why did you need the case explained to you? why is it okay to demand other players hold your hand but you get

frustrated

PISSED OFF when people refuse or need hand holding themselves

you did not explain this. yet you expect me to. that's literally it. this is noteworthy.

--
to answer your other questions re: ironstove. i didn't see any following discussion about what other players thought about which kill was the vig kill. that's it. i'm wondering if anyone else has thoughts on this. at this moment preferably anyone other than you, but right now it seems like it's just us being STUPID and INSANE

[guyy]

k

that tells me what i need to know

VOTE: lang

[guyy]

from my perspective you're projecting HARD but it's fine i'd rather choose to stop interacting with you because nothing will be constructive

i've said plenty about srceenplay. i've commented on the parts of mulch's points that i agree with and

i don't believe you're this dense or this hypocritical

[guyy]

actually yeah whatever

srceenplay

not comfortable voting on a wagon supported by kunk and lang

let's get this day over with

[guyy]

VOTE: srceenplay

don't know if the last one actually counts

[guyy]

actually lang

real, legit question, no judgment-

is any of your play a persona for you?

[guyy]

kunk, yeah, i get it. it's a little too sheepy

i already pointed out that i thought it might be an attempt to pocket me

that plus lang means i don't want to vote flubber anymore. not my wagon anymore- someone else can have it

[guyy]

also for the record it was never my direct intention to piss off or frustrate lang until things started to get ridiculous

i admit i should have chilled more with my responses

initially at the beginning of the day it started off as me trying to help lang be more convincing so that he didn't get deathtunneled because i was largely townreading him. i wanted him to chill on the tangents a bit so people might actually listen because i agreed with some of the things he was saying. it seemed from my perspective like scum was taking advantage of this and hopping on a wagon against him. i'm still not sure how that got us to here but i apologize to everyone for whatever hand i had in it

[guyy]

ok. well then, lang- i apologize

I have a really bad feeling that the last power role not claiming is going to bite us in the ass

i think i can kinda see it both ways but elaborate

[guyy]

I have a really bad feeling that the last power role not claiming is going to bite us in the ass

No there is

absolutely nothing

bad that could come from that, none at all~

kunk, yeah, i get it. it's a little too sheepy

i already pointed out that i thought it might be an attempt to pocket me

Ok makes sense. I'm sticking here but I'll hammer srceenplay if that happens.

if what happens?

[guyy]

fine.

i'm the last pr

i disagree with a lot of things but i'll throw that out there so i don't get blamed for everything if we end up losing

[guyy]

because i think scum having a 50/50 shot of failure is better reason to divert scum away from our two outed PRs than a third claim


mulch, if one of the other two pr claims were lying, which do you think is more likely?

[guyy]

fine, sure. also fair

1. kunk lead the second wave of the wagon that lead to the tywin lynch
2. kunk sheeped me onto flubber
3. despite those, i'm willing to vote kunk

[guyy]

it is feasibly constructive in any case. throwing doubt on them is further incentive for scum to leave them alone

which is what's been driving me most of the day

nothing is rooted in psychosis. (well, jury's still out on that one i suppose). town players are perfectly capable of influencing the scum kill. that was the point of the groups too ultimately

[guyy]

wavemode parked his vote on Tywin then popped back two times saying he's got shit to unload, man, but never did. Super scummy imo, and Not Mafia didn't help shit, but not sure if scummier than actually calling Tywin town.

i agree here

kunk- why are you okay hammering srceenplay? why can't you be the L-1 vote?

[guyy]

hmm ok i accept that

i'll give you the same then- if flubber gets to L-1 without me, i'll hammer

[guyy]

although what if they're both at L-1

[guyy]

i'm the one that brought up the soft claim actually

[guyy]

also explained it was the largest reason i had him in group A iirc. so absent that i could see him being scum. but i still would've rather lynched someone off the tywin wagon

also d1 argued for a screen/tywin team

[guyy]

Guy don't tunnel me. It won't end well.

I'll get to this later.

if you're vt, wtf did you have to get to later

also, it's both that that's odd and that it's a portion of why i was townreading you

so if it's just nothing then the only reason you're not scum is that you were the counterwagon and pushed for by tywin from early on

which is still good enough reason not to lynch you now

but i could see you being scum here

[guyy]

You also argued me on a team with someone else(don't remember who), both with the reasoning that I hadn't mentioned them in my ISO.
One has flipped scum and one has flipped Town. So I don't see that as an accurate way to scum read me neither.

it was sesq, who hasn't flipped

[guyy]

yeah i'm not either atm

quoted not to ask again but just to say it's not that i believe the soft claim is super scummy, just that it's what was keeping me from scum reading you

[guyy]

how likely does everyone really think it is that both wagons day 1 were on scum

[guyy]

what are the votes at rn

[guyy]

honestly feel like i could've had better reads if it weren't for lang

i was having fun until he got super stupid

was wary of mulch but don't know if i would have scumread him

abstained from shooting because i wanted to shoot lang so bad for all the wrong reasons. i was scumreading him because i didn't want to believe he was just that dense. i didn't want to live with that mistake even if he had ended up being scum in the end. would not have shot not_mafia or mulch anyway