Mini 1939 - Organization XIII (Game Over)

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: marluxia

its a shame this character is relegated to only being in handhelds...

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: marluxia

its a shame this character is relegated to only being in handhelds...

There's Re: Chain of Memories! And absent silouhettes if you count those.

VOTE: Larxene

Kind of lol. Finding copy of Re: Chain of Memories that wasnt included on the HD Remakes is like finding an indian arrowhead. Im almost positive in the future itll be on some American Pickers show valued at like 500 bucks lol

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: Roxas

Both posts felt played up. Larxene is definitely not obvtown, Luxord is definitely not obvscum.

Larxene might not be obvi town but she is so far the most town player here. Dont get where the Luxord obvscum is coming from

[IV Vexen]

in a game like this where meta is absolutely impossible

which thank god by the way. Ive always thought the whole meta thing was bullshit and people spent way to much time analyzing it.

[IV Vexen]

You're right, my ISO has been basically all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I can copy all of my thoughts on everyone here, but my heart really isn't into anything regarding scumhunting yet. Like, I won't be proactive now but I think it can be assumed that I will be eventually? I really don't think there are any motivations to be found by my lack of productivity.

Here's a direct (reformatted from Excel) copy of my notes, with one omission. (Only noting this so if I want to bring it up later, people know.)

2 Xigbar:

Reaction to a relatively calm voteswitch by me in RVS. Weird "if you were scum" Q to

12

in P26. Other than this, gut strongly says town mindset-- but based on not much concrete.

4 Vexen:

Flavor entrance, very standard, empty ISO, voteable.

5 Lexaeus:

Pushes

12

for inv-immune. Probably just in a frivolous/reac-test way. I tend towards townreading. (Okay, nvm. It seemed genuine.) P53 seems pretty town at first glance, feeling strongly as towniest post in the game.

6 Zexion:

Lots of content. Pushes

5

for noisemaking which at face value makes no real sense but is a believable push for town to make. Votes

13

for bad reasons. Overall P47 makes me feel just a little bit weird, entertaining possible narrative of scum with strong presence? Unsure how much conviction he actually has (the less the better, honestly). P56 is towny.

12 Larxene:

Claiming inv-immune. Not impressive but claim tends towards town.

13 Roxas:

Asks to be checked, says will claim if needed. Opens with scumread me and townread

12

.

Dude Im begging you, please stop doing this. Just use the name, its going to make it easier on everyone involved.

Personally Im not a big fan of telling the investigative roles where to target in the beginning of the game. Not nearly enough knowledge of the game yet to start playing with power roles like that.

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: Vexen
Let's see you actually do something, Vexi! <3

VOTE: Roxas

Both posts felt played up. Larxene is definitely not obvtown, Luxord is definitely not obvscum.

Larxene might not be obvi town but she is so far the most town player here. Dont get where the Luxord obvscum is coming from

What's the point of even making this distinction? Why am I the towniest here, anyway?
This is your only post worth looking at and it doesn't say much.

Lexaeus is probably town. Or super excited scum, but I'd rather just call him town.

because usually scum arent going to come out the gate and say what kind of role they have and draw some major attention on themselves. Have a hard time imagining a scum player doin what you did right out of the gate.

[IV Vexen]

gotta get this game moving though. Its only page four and convo has pretty much died.

Xigbar what are your thoughts on Roxas and the way he came in

[IV Vexen]

shit this is a prod dodge but once I get back from school Ill post something of consequence and catch up reading

[IV Vexen]

Here and reading. Approximately 10 hours til content

[IV Vexen]

The Graceful Assassin has arrived, so you may bow to the true master of Castle Oblivion. If you have anything that you'd like for me to read or address while I'm catching up, please do so as soon as possible. If your questions are asking me general opinions of players, please avoid wasting the time of us both and hold that questions until after the show.

Flavorwise, this is scum.

My friends, I'm happy to announce that Vexen is about to return from his prolonged excursion in Castle Oblivion. You may notice that his personality has undergone some... adjustments during his visit. Please try not to call attention to these changes; we do not want to upset our friend, do we?

Spoiler: we killed him. Sorry not sorry? We'll have a lot of fun with New Better Vexen, promise! <3

I'm very fun. I can sing and dance and flirt with the mod. Now on to other, less important things...

Luxord has been replaced, please welcome Luxord 2.0.

Goddammit. Are you telling me I could have been Luxord if I'd just waited a day? I thought you guys loved me. Next Xion's gonna get added just to rub salt in the cavity where you ripped my heart out.

Who is opposed to Axel lynch and why?
This decision can't happen closer to the deadline. Scurrying for a legit lynch at the last moment will results in a mislynch.

Um... Okay, I see the like 14 prod dodges/replaces in the last couple pages, but do you have a reason for your fear mongering here? It's really yucky. Explain to me why we should lynch Axel, either by linking a case or by making one. Then I shall continue to do whatever the hell I feel like because you're not my robot supervisor. Especially when you appear to have managed to convince approximately no one.


I've skimmed the first 3/4 of the game and feel good about Larxy, Roxy and Xiggy baby.

If there's anything important for me to care about, please draw my attention, possibly with road flares or big flashing neon signs. Particularly the cases on Xaladin and Axe. Otherwise, I'll get to it in my own sweetass time.

I'm gonna be busy tomorrow, so don't expect much in the way of sweeping analysis to blow the world apart until Tuesday, when I go back to having no real demands on my time other than people I like more than all of you.

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: Saix

I really feel like quoting goodmorning here, but Effort is NAI. The fact is that you're saying you're tunneled on Axel because fluffposting and lack of effort while I see nothing to suggest you're actually looking for motivations. This is at best lazy posting, and at worst posting actively looking to slip under the radar. You haven't said ANYTHING about anyone not named Axel since page five, and the amount of certainty compared to the 'evidence' on Axel is frankly garbo.

Convince me Axel's scum, cause your 144 just seems like a big ball of nulltells on Axel and hypocrisy from you, and I'm not seeing a more cohesive case from you.

[IV Vexen]

whoops, apparently emotes and capslock are anathema.

@mod, if you'd fix that I'd be most appreciative.

[IV Vexen]

What's worrying is that you are not able to see how whatever you have wrote as a case on me
- is also wrong with Axel (in your words - "fluffposting, lack of effort, lazy posting, posting actively, certainty compared to evidence", etc.), and,
- is also wrong with you (if my vote on Axel is bad, so is your vote on me, coz there's nothing in that post and vote that you are seeking from me. In your words, "hypocrisy and lack of a cohesive case on someone".

What case on you? If saying your push on Axel is hot garbo amounts to a case now, than ms has reeeeally gone downhill.

As far as why that's probably scum coming from you over scum coming from Axel: You're saying it's likely to be scum. That, right there, is the rub. You clearly think the behavior that you as scum are doing is scummy. And you're trying to push a lynch through based on that behavior. It's not the fluffposting that I see as a problem.

As far as Axel's alignment goes, I haven't the foggiest. That's pretty much the reason I asked you why you were voting him in 306, which I'd still like you to respond to, btw. I just feel that your overconfidence, hypocrisy, and dismissal of literally every other player you have to read is probably scum. I'm adding the tu quoque, loaded question, and fact you ignored me until I suspected you to the list of reasons your role pm is red as well, btw.

Luxia, you can get added to the people voting Xaldin for ?. Please elaborate as soon as you can.

@Lex, could you go ahead and elaborate on Ax and Demy? I promise to love you forever for it. Or at least til I want something from you.

[IV Vexen]

Huh. Iso-ing Xig for a Xal case, and while the early stuff is still towny, the last few posts have been all kinds of meh. 307 particularly seems like... garbage. Like the whole concept...

"I lied about my reads so I could see what you'd do. And if you were town you could still do the exact same thing as I think you might have done as scum, because I'm afraid you're trying to pocket me."

Like, I could understand this kind of paranoia from someone like mastina or thor on the outside, but there's 0 weight behind Xig's name here so there wouldn't be any reason to try to pocket him specifically.
I could understand the lying about reads if you thought it would catch scum, but here though it sounds like you know the result is gonna be mostly null.
And that last line seems like a scum talking to someone they're afraid of catching them as town. Which ALSO doesn't make any sense, regardless of alignment, because there should be no way for Xig to know if Zex is good at catching them.

Seriously, wth was this?

[IV Vexen]

Spoiler:

Xigbar, it is amusing how you scunread larxene for not explaining her scunread when you are doing the same exact thing. As for your comment about alts. It is both scummy and against the spirit of the game. It's scummy because it's an easy and lazy excuse to go Afterwards"I guess I was wrong about who it was and the meta"
Now you can alt guess all you want but in.a case meta has no place. Also you would be correct that I am scumreading you. I simply don't always vote on my point suspicion posts.
@Zexion, his read makes no sense because it is fake.

Did I say I had no read on Xaldin?

Scratch that.
I do.

Vote: Xaldin.

Honestly this post alone skyrockets him into being my strongest scumread. (I mean that doesn't mean very much since very, very little would be required to become my strongest scumread at this point given how much trouble I am having locking in scumreads, but it's the thought which counts.)

By Yucky, did you mean that Xaldin is Yucky, or did you mean that my Xaldin stance is Yucky?

Stance. Play has moderately improved since Page 1.

I'm going to need specifics here because I got the opposite impression of Xaldin.

I back this up with posts like this:

Man game is slow.

Godfather

Godfather isn't immune, he comes back as town, scum.godfsther would want to be targeted not discourage it. How did you even come to that conclusion.

Wherein Xaldin continues to do nothing.

So to what do you cite as evidence for Xaldin being town?

Okay. So AFAICT, this is the whole reason Xal is L-2. Posted by the fourth person voting him.

Larxy and Lexy (who should really be masons with names like that) appear to have sheeped Xig. Whose reasoning amounted to not liking Xal's first three posts. Luxia, from context of 314-316 appears to be voting out of some weird concern for the deadline. Like, if Saix weren't making such wonderfully jiggly motions in response to my vote on him, I'd vote Luxia for those three. It's just so gross that it makes me want to stop eating for a couple of weeks. It's weird to me that a wagon so full of townreads can also look like such hot garbage. I'm probably gonna need to spend some serious time reevaluating that nest of crazy.

[IV Vexen]

Hmm. At what approximate point in the game did you learn their identity. And vice versa.

[IV Vexen]

That's a question, btw. With question marks. Just looks like the top half of them is invisible for some reason.

[IV Vexen]

Will return to this on the morrow, but I just realized how late it is and I need to wake up in about 5 hours, so... Night yall.

Still want that elaboration on the Xal wagon, btw, Xiggy.

[IV Vexen]

Spoiler: Episode II: The Wall Strikes Back

Huh. Iso-ing Xig for a Xal case, and while the early stuff is still towny, the last few posts have been all kinds of meh. 307 particularly seems like... garbage. Like the whole concept...

"I lied about my reads so I could see what you'd do. And if you were town you could still do the exact same thing as I think you might have done as scum, because I'm afraid you're trying to pocket me."

1) This is hugely misrepresenting what actually happened and the specific manner feels like scum trying to spin me as scummy.
The specific act of the quotation marks (specifically creating a narrative about what I was doing) is something bad scum do a lot to push scumreads, and is a huge scumtell.
2) I lied about a scumread to see how it would influence their read on the slot. It's a minor thing that has many potential reactions.
I think that that particular response is what they would do as scum. They also -might- do it as town. I think that there are other reactions that would clearly demarcate town or scum.

Oh... And now you think I'm bad scum. I feel really sad . I'm gonna go ahead and guarantee for you one thing. I'm not bad at scum. As town? Up for debate. But as scum I'm glorious.

As far as pushing a narrative goes, tell me exactly what is incorrect about what I quoted. That is my understanding of that post. If I'm wrong, tell me why. As far as the other end of things, please, enlighten me with some responses he could have made that would have been alignment indicative, if not for the only one he would have made if he were scum, but that he might have made as town anyway so it really didn't matter much.

Larxy and Lexy (who should really be masons with names like that) appear to have sheeped Xig. Whose reasoning amounted to not liking Xal's first three posts. Luxia, from context of 314-316 appears to be voting out of some weird concern for the deadline. Like, if Saix weren't making such wonderfully jiggly motions in response to my vote on him, I'd vote Luxia for those three. It's just so gross that it makes me want to stop eating for a couple of weeks. It's weird to me that a wagon so full of townreads can also look like such hot garbage. I'm probably gonna need to spend some serious time reevaluating that nest of crazy.

Quotes where you talk about your intent to think about things as opposed to actually thinking about things, on top of being LAMIST as fuck, are a huge scumtell.

Are they? See, for me they remind me to do things. As in, I'm going to do this later. So I don't forget and not follow up on something that could be important.

Hmm. At what approximate point in the game did you learn their identity. And vice versa.

The answer to this is clearly visible in the game.
I feel like if he were -that- concerned about this issue that he would have carefully looked for this answer himself.

Or... I could have you, who is clearly aware of exactly when it happened link it to me and save me a buttload of time. Time I then could use to look at the two wagons we have available and gag.

As far as Axel's alignment goes, I haven't the foggiest. That's pretty much the reason I asked you why you were voting him in 306, which I'd still like you to respond to, btw. I just feel that your overconfidence, hypocrisy, and dismissal of literally every other player you have to read is probably scum. I'm adding the tu quoque, loaded question, and fact you ignored me until I suspected you to the list of reasons your role pm is red as well, btw.

Showy and played up declaration that he doesn't know what alignment Axel is. To put it in one word it would again be LAMIST but that doesn't go to the heart of why it's scummy.
He's making a point of declaring himself uninformed. Also, calling them in an overblown manner overconfident hypocritical and dismissive of literally every other player again feels scummy.
Also, that final sentence is out of place and something I've seen from scum a lot: after all, why would he be telling his scumreads about the additions to the reasons that he scumreads them?

Oh, shit. You've found out I'm showy and theatrical. Next you'll talk about how I like to make jokes and annoy the moderator. It's like you know me!

Or perhaps the overblown manner was because the question itself was ridiculous. Saix was asking me why I was questioning his push on Axel like the only possible reason for me to question it was because I had a hard townread on Axel. That's a false premise, and one I met with gusto. As far as overconfident:

Who is opposed to Axel lynch and why?
This decision can't happen closer to the deadline. Scurrying for a legit lynch at the last moment will results in a mislynch.

Well, this is ridiculously overconfident. Especially given the lack of stated reasons for his read. Dismissive of the other players? Prior to my replacement, his most recent posts not exclusively about Axel were 185 which is a dismissal of the conftown and 156 where he criticizes a read of... Axel. Since my replace in, he's also interacted with me, who is actively scumreading him, and Luxia, who is actively engaging him. That's it. No one else.

Hypocrisy? 156, 263, 317. There's more, but honestly, you seem experienced enough to be able to click the ISO button.

Like, I could understand this kind of paranoia from someone like mastina or thor on the outside, but there's 0 weight behind Xig's name here so there wouldn't be any reason to try to pocket him specifically.
I could understand the lying about reads if you thought it would catch scum, but here though it sounds like you know the result is gonna be mostly null.

I can't shake the feeling that this post comes from someone who knows who I am.
No, I know the current reaction was null: if they challenged my read and they flipped scum I would super heavily townread them. Certain types of discomfort would indicate scum.
It's fairly clear what I was aiming for and you're calling me scummy for the act of lying about my reads, but what exactly is scum!Xigbar's scum motivation to do this?

Is it cause you're Thor? Cause I'm guessing at this point that you're Thor. Which would probably make Zex Reckoner, given that I can only remember one ms wedding and I'm pretty sure reck's best friends were Thor and Jiffy. And you ain't Jiffy. If you are thor, I'm very upset by the lack of neutral faces so far in this game and you're gonna have to step that up.

Also, you pretty much missed the entire point of that post. The point was that I didn't see a reason for either Xig to make that post. It was a super odd post. I'm going to double check the stated belief that Zex knew who you were and that you were aware of this knowledge, but it looks like paranoia that neither scum nor town Xig should have. Which would point at the interaction being forced or staged somehow.

And that last line seems like a scum talking to someone they're afraid of catching them as town. Which ALSO doesn't make any sense, regardless of alignment, because there should be no way for Xig to know if Zex is good at catching them.

Seriously, wth was this?

I have so many fucking times made reference to my altguesses on different slots and this feels like you're trying to lock -no one knows anything- to help you push a narrative.
So from my point of view you've either not read anything this game or are just scum trying to get an angle to push me off of.

Which is it?

Hey, I resent that. I've read almost some of the thread. I was at like page 11 when I stopped reading the first time, and I've read like five ISO's since then. Granted, looking for anything resembling a case, but I did look through them. I probably just ignored any guesses as to identities because of the whole "This is a secret alt game where we're not ALLOWED to out our identities." angle of things. It seems like a waste of time to me, a waste of threadspace, and a great distraction to scumhunting.

Hmm. At what approximate point in the game did you learn their identity. And vice versa.

Even this doesn't feel like an appropriate reaction. If he was so certain that no one could know anyone's names, he wouldn't so readily back down on it.

Cute. But humor me. Worst case I'm scum and you lynch me, thus the conversation is wasted time. Best case I'm town and I've caught scum, which I guess is still worst case for you, but you know, only if your alignment is scum.

Seriously, wth was this?

This comes from scum the vast, vast majority of the time.

Does it? Incredulity is scum now. Huh, whoda thunk. Well, now, onto more important and less inane things...

Without chancing modkills for revealing your identity, (Which you've managed to get particularly close to gray areas and I applaud the effort if it was intentional), Could you please tell me what particularly about 47 that shared a hidden identity with you? I'd rather you confirm with ANTTH that you can guess Zex's identity in thread without risking the Wrath of MOD, but that's a PM you'll have to send.

Zexy, could you please confirm for me that you believe Xig is someone who was best man at your wedding and tell me exactly what post and what about that post made you see the light so clearly? And if you wouldn't mind too terribly much, could you send that same PM to make sure you don't wind up dead when I ask you to tell me Xig's identity?

[IV Vexen]

Spoiler: Sorry, No Saix Nicknames

What's worrying is that you are not able to see how whatever you have wrote as a case on me
- is also wrong with Axel (in your words - "fluffposting, lack of effort, lazy posting, posting actively, certainty compared to evidence", etc.), and,
- is also wrong with you (if my vote on Axel is bad, so is your vote on me, coz there's nothing in that post and vote that you are seeking from me. In your words, "hypocrisy and lack of a cohesive case on someone".

What case on you? If saying your push on Axel is hot garbo amounts to a case now, than ms has reeeeally gone downhill.

1. Let's not drag MS's quality into it. It's immaterial right now.

Not when you're calling a duck an ostrich. For clarification though, I'm accusing you of lying about what I'm doing, not accusing ms of being a bad site.

As far as why that's probably scum coming from you over scum coming from Axel: You're saying it's likely to be scum. That, right there, is the rub. You clearly think the behavior that you as scum are doing is scummy. And you're trying to push a lynch through based on that behavior. It's not the fluffposting that I see as a problem.

2. How is your behaviour any different from mine, Vex?
You do not a hell lot on me and yet you voted for me. But for voting for me, you give a reason that I voted for someone on whom I didn't have much to begin with.
Do you see the contradiction now?

What? Voting someone =/= saying that we need to come to a lynch consensus and then demanding everyone take a stance on your scumread.

3. In your post 1, you vote for me and give a weak reason. Then I say something in response to that. In your post 2, instead of justifying your vote and weak reason you have on me from your post 1, you start talking about my response post, which has chronologically come after your vote. I would like to hear what made you vote for me in the first place, without using the crutches of the scumminess I display in my response post - which has come after you voted - to justify your vote.

Scums do this very often

. They project their suspicions on X, X says something in response to that, and the scum uses these subsequent response posts to justify their original suspicion. I won't let that happen to me this game.

In my post 2 I vote you for a weak reason. In my post one, I say that your most recent post is yucky and ask for cases on the two wagons which have attracted two people or more. And yes, in my post 2 my vote was more because I thought you needed the pressure than because I thought you were scum. The fact that your responses were incredibly scummy, and that needed to be pointed out, says fuck all about my alignment. It does say a lot about yours, however. Since I've replaced in, everything you have said has convinced me you were scum.

As far as Axel's alignment goes, I haven't the foggiest. That's pretty much the reason I asked you why you were voting him in 306, which I'd still like you to respond to, btw. I just feel that your overconfidence, hypocrisy, and dismissal of literally every other player you have to read is probably scum. I'm adding the tu quoque, loaded question, and fact you ignored me until I suspected you to the list of reasons your role pm is red as well, btw.

4. If you don't have the foggiest, maybe you should ISO them and me and read our interactions. But just to give you a summary, I posted a wall of reads in which I mentioned Axel as scumlean, following which Axel erupted and omgused. Even after the repeated suggestion to him to improve his game, from me and from others, there wasn't much content in their posts. They are questioning and responding, but where are their reads about the game, except about their read on me, which has no content but just omgus kind of tone.

Or maybe I should ask the people who are townreading them and scumreading them why instead of relying on stale information that I can't really connect with. Like I've been doing. And you've been ignoring. Since I replaced in. What particular posts do you find scummy from Axel? Not he's been fluffposting. Which posts are fluff and why is that scum? Which posts avoid taking a stance? Why was his eruption and OMGUS scummy?

Yes, I do not have much on Axel right now, but it's all relative judgement anyway, especially on D1. Right now, even if I have less on Axel than necessary, it's the max I have on anyone, so I have gone ahead with my suspicions. I asked openly about deadline and lynching Axel coz I wanna know how much traction there is for that lynch. If not, I will need to focus on my second most suspicious person in the hierarchy.

5. My 'overconfidence, hypocrisy and dismissal of other players' are your perceptions. It doesn't matter what you think of me, but since we are playing a game and are

hopefully on the same side

, I just wanna say that you read me wrongly.

Cool story. I especially love the part where you say I'm probably scum and then say we hopefully have the same alignment in the same post. It's so beautiful it hurts. (Bolded for emphasis)

If you want to change my read on you, then you should probably try to engage the thread and find scum. Why haven't you talked to anyone but me and Luxia all day, for example?

I will note, however, that you just spent more effort defending yourself to one of two people voting you than you have in getting your 'scumread' lynched since I've joined the game.

[IV Vexen]

And... Xemnas ISO also lacks a Axel case, just saying his contributions are lacking.

I'm just gonna go cry. Alone. In a corner.

[IV Vexen]

Fine Saix. Still gonna need you to respond to my question about why Axel is scum, though.

[IV Vexen]

This game is a steaming pile of shit. Probably going to replace out.

If you are town Xigbar I have 0 respect for you in this game after that horseshit. I do nothing but engage with you an honest way and just because my reads align with yours and I'm willing to follow you on a read of yours that I don't understand I'm trying to pocket you??? And you were ~faking reads~ to try to ~bait me~? Fuck off dude. My reads are my own. Don't bring out of game stuff into the game to try to reveal anyone's identity, that's flagrantly in violation of the spirit of alted games. Your Vexen case is rubbish, you'll find scum in a nunnery with the way you're approaching the game.

Zero fucking clue how anyone has even a whisper of a townread on Axel here.

Okay, can I get you to back off a second and level with me?

Tell me A. What the case on Axel is and B. why you thought you know who Xig is originally. Maybe instead of abandoning the game entirely you can talk to people other than the ones pissing you off. Like me.

[IV Vexen]

I've read up and intend to reply to 361, but you are the least important thing for me to do tonight.

[IV Vexen]

In post 335, IV Vexen wrote:
Zexy, could you please confirm for me that you believe Xig is someone who was best man at your wedding and tell me exactly what post and what about that post made you see the light so clearly? And if you wouldn't mind too terribly much, could you send that same PM to make sure you don't wind up dead when I ask you to tell me Xig's identity?
I have no idea what you want from me here, sorry. I'm not going to comment on the wedding. Altguessing and hinting at meta is fine but making explicit statements that reveal you as X is not cool at all.

Still pretty unhappy with Demyx. Don't know why that slot is just doing next to nothing after getting two pages into their catchup.

Don't actually give a shit who you are. What I want from you is

A. To confirm that to the best of your knowledge Xig knows who you are and you know who Xig is.
AND
B. To confirm exactly which post gave you that information.

I'd also like this about every other one of the 4 people who you were sure you knew on page 7.

Zex, kinda disappointed with your conversation with Xig about me, but never mind. I am sure you have your reasons for doubting me, but I thought there was some kinda mutual town block thing happening between us.

About Vex, I was already scum-reading his slot. The he replaced and somehow tracked me down for a one-on-one with Axel because of my post on Axel. There are a number of reasons that pinged me badly, but the worst were the following, which I have already outlined in my interactions with him. But here's the gist.
1. he found my lack of a case on Axel as a good enough reason to vote for me, but he himself never provided a good enough reason for placing his vote on me. All that he said about me could also be said about Vex's reasons about scumreading me. I don't buy his explanation regarding he was reaction-testing me initially but then my reaction actually made him vote for me. I think he wanted to make a splash with his entry and my post happened to be around the corner for him to bump into, and he took it off from there.
2. Axel is worst of between me and him (Axel) if it came to deciding where to put his vote. For someone to disregard that and say that they don't have a clue on Axel's slot, but they have a clue abt me without reading what happened in the game before they entered, is a bit much. It tells me that they have probably made up their opinion how they want to go ahead with their interaction with me.
3. I have already said that because my posts are a certain way, scum usually find it easy to target me. What usually happens is they say something provocative, and I react to that provocation, and then instead of justifying their reasons behind the provocation, they start using my reaction as a justification. This is wrong coz they are changing the chronology of the narrative. This has happened a lot with me, and scums usually do that, coz frankly it's way too tempting. So, instead of defending myself, I have learnt to put this reason out there the first time I sense it. So that this doesn't spiral out of control, and I can save my slot the moment I see it going downhill. Coz the longer you wait hoping that either that person sees reason or coz someone else will see how the narrative is being changed, the narrative has already been changed. In that changed narrative, it starts appearing like my slot is fighting tooth and nail and defending way too much.

To summarise, Vex's behaviour in that interaction was scummy coz he was way too rigid about his stance on me (and without reasons) and way too cavalier about Axel, and he couldn't see how that was contradictory.

Marluxia, I ISO'd Xaldin. There's absolutely nothing to say. That slot has done nothing. He isn't even making an effort. There are only a few detailed posts, but these posts are mostly centred around himself, how others' votes on him are opportunistic, etc (e.g. 219). I dont like that. But I would like to give him some more time.

I continue to have not read Axel. As, you know, I haven't attempted to hide once.

1. I did give reasons to find you scummy before voting you, primarily in my post 306 and in 311. To say anything less is a misrep. Whether that was a "good enough" reason for the vote is subjective at best, and the evidence has merely piled up since then.

2. Oh. Really? So... Everything I'm saying you're doing is why Axel is scummy? That makes literally 0 sense as a defense, and even less as a argument for why Axel is scum.

3.

You're accusing me of scumreading you for things you hadn't done yet when I first started scumreading you, manipulating a narrative, and provoking you into acting in a scummy manner. Seriously?

The thread is pretty clear. My original reason for poking you is there, and hasn't walked away. I'm not going to ignore other things you do that are scummy because they weren't the original thing you did. That's insane. I'm also completely in the dark as to how pointing out scummy things you do when you do them is manipulating the timeline in any way. And how the hell am I supposed to engage you in the thread without engaging you? Is there any interaction that doesn't qualify as provoking you into acting in a scummy manner? Or is the real scumtell here that I'm scumreading you? Cause it most certainly looks like it.

And how the hell am I being criticized for both using reasons from the future and not having reasons at the same time?

Your defense is laughable and I'm not sure how anyone can see this as town.

[IV Vexen]

I want Axel to die very very much.

VOTE: Axel

Why?

And why do you think you're the NK for sure, Xig, when we actually have an innocent child?

And Lexy, why did you drop the alt-information being suspicious angle waaaaay back? I see Xig saying he'll ask Heartless, and then nothing. From either of you. And that's weird to me, because I don't see why you just let that go.

[IV Vexen]

Hi new Larxene.

That's... pretty sad. You're saying that your ego is powerful enough that you think scum would use a strongman to kill you over an innocent child in an Antihero setup? That's... Beyond words. I truly hope we're dealing with a scumteam that incompetent, cause at that point I can probably start clearing people on the basis that they have braincells.

[IV Vexen]

I think Saix flips town

Elaborate, please.

[IV Vexen]

Hosting a party today, so this is a proddodge.

Content probably tomorrow, but at least by Tues.

[IV Vexen]

Any particular reason you're campaigning for a quickhammer without a claim and with 3 days til deadline?

[IV Vexen]

Phoneposting, goddammit roxas.

[IV Vexen]

Roxas's gambit amused me, but a real hammer would be much much better.

I don't understand why Xaldin isn't dead?

I'm not gambiting, I'm not joking.

I have a double-vote so Xaldin SHOULD be dead right now?

VOTE: Roxas

Explain or die.

[IV Vexen]

Because there is literally no town motivation to continuing the reaction test after he's provably not a doublevoter, (if he is Anti mod error'd and we're in twilight), his entrance implied something actually useful to town, and his statement that doublevoter is half of his role sounds scummy as balls.

[IV Vexen]

Antihero, did you mistakenly forget that Rox was a doublevoter and no lynch Xaldin?

There, base covered.

[IV Vexen]

not, not no

[IV Vexen]

Fascinating. Your decision to insist on this lie, that is.

It's not a lie. Roxas wouldn't pull that continuation there I don't think.
Even if it is... That means roxas would be town, because they definitely wouldn't as scum. There's no reward for the risk of lying, basically.

@roxas I recommend asking the mod a lot of questions if you don't know what happened there but I get a feeling that you might have some idea by virtue of how excited you are about your role. not saying more on that tho obvs

IF Roxas is town, there will be an explanation. If he isn't, there might still be an explanation, but ignoring the possibility that he's banking on stupid people leaving it to stand is being those stupid people. If there is no explanation, or the explanation is terrible, it makes him scum. If he claims something insane, I'm going to bet the farm on him being fakeclaiming scum.

Saix I pretty comfortably townread.
Roxas I pretty comfortably townread.
Xemnas is confirmed town.
Xigbar and his badass arrowguns are town.
Zex can die a horrible death for being scum (out of game I still think you're great . Even if you're actually town I'll forgive you.) But I don't see the purpose in pushing a wagon as contentious of that without the benefit of either my gladiate or a full day to push it. I'm going to leave her out of the lynchpool for now.
Starting to believe that Xaldin's dumb ass may be town but the best way to be sure of that will be his reaction to this read swap.

So that's 7 people remaining.

I'm working through what I want and what I want seems to be VOTE: Vexen. But I'll give more details.

Don't talk about it, be about it. If you think I'm scummy, vote me. It'll do more for the game than leaving your vote on no one. Def not thor, though, so I can stop expecting a higher level of competence from you.

[IV Vexen]

I'd put $50 on your inability to guess my identity before the day phase if it wasn't skirting the rules and I wasn't trying to kick my gambling problem.

[IV Vexen]

Why are you focusing on associatives Day 1?

[IV Vexen]

And the other 9 members of town are all incompetent? I'll give you Xaldin and Saix are, but that's 2/13 and I'm pretty sure Saix is scum. Why are you the authority on this, notThor?

[IV Vexen]

Because there's a really good chance you're full of shit. And I think there's about a 5% chance you manage to draw the nightkill tonight.

[IV Vexen]

.2% you're a compulsive Lightning Rod.
2% there's a vig scumreading you.
2.8% scum thinks both that you're unlynchable and that you're gonna catch onto and lynch them.

[IV Vexen]

Or.... Saix, Xigbar, Zexion. If I called it, you give me a sig quote.

[IV Vexen]

I don't see a yes.

[IV Vexen]

I'mma gonna go feed an addiction. I'll see you guys when I wake up. Could be tomorrow, depending on if I go to sleep before I have to leave tomorrow.

I'll make room on the mantle.

[IV Vexen]

Ah, how quickly the tide has turned. And, I feel, for the better. To my loyal associates Xigbar, Zexion, Roxas and perhaps Demyx, I shall lend my vote.

VOTE: Luxord

VOTE: Saix

Point. Putting my vote back here for the moment, but if I do eat the bullet then don't let Rox get away with not explaining his entrance in light of doublevoter.

I've waxed poetic on the reasons Saix is scum before, and they haven't changed. I'll spend some time tonight going over the Lux case and seeing if I can get behind that.

[IV Vexen]

Lux case provided by Xig ISO as I understand it is as such: 158 is bad, nontown reaction to progression of Xig and Xal, and associatives. Is this more or less correct, Xig? I'm gonna check the rest of the people voting him next, and then check him to make sure it's not wrong tomorrow morning. If you could add any reasons you have to scumread him, I'll check those too.

[IV Vexen]

I have the ability to be here before deadline, and unless your case is nonsense I'm happy to hammer in favor of deadline lynch.

[IV Vexen]

Rox appears to be voting Lux because he got prodded, and our fearless leader has mentioned him literally 4 times, once by quoting him.

[IV Vexen]

And... Demyx is townreading Luxord. Full stop, every single mention of Lux Dem says he's town, and he's voting him. This is a shit wagon.

[IV Vexen]

I'm gonna go beat my head against the wall until this game makes sense again. See you tomorrow.

[IV Vexen]

Miller lynch is only mildly preferable to no lynch IMO.

Still though....

VOTE: Larxene

[IV Vexen]

Xemnas, Vexen


Xaldin, Axel, Larxene
Marluxia, Luxord
Roxas, Lexaeus
Zexion
Xigbar, Demyx, Saïx

Luxia and Luxord are the null line.

While you've got the time waiting for the lynch to go through or not, tell me exactly why voting a townread because you did isn't suspicious behavior, Xiggy? Cause that's possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[IV Vexen]

I too advocate Axel using his power tonight. It might reduce Xal power a bit but my role at least wants consecutive targeting and I'd bet theres more that Ax can fuck with. If it's a scumrole, I expect the kill goes through anyway, though theoretical Ax-scum could No kill so that's unconfirmable.

[IV Vexen]

That's hilarious coming from you.

Tell me why you voted a townread on Xig's say so.

[IV Vexen]

Spoiler:

VOTE: 6 Zex
As someone who has no flavor knowledge, all of the names are frustratingly similar.

I

really

want to townread this.
I really really do.
Yet as with all prior posts of yours.
It's frustratingly null.

What's worse is that I realize I want to townread you as some kind of damsel-in-distress with regards to flavor.

There's not too much to explain. I'm not coming in with any real scumreads so I'm just poking and prodding at people I consider voteable. Crux of it is really that I just don't agree with your reads. If ever I earnestly push you, I'd explain it.

As for 13 Roxas, the less conviction you actually have in your scumread, the more favorably I see you. I don't actually think there's any real urgency in sorting him nor is there any real reason to scumread him. With the claim, I'm unwilling to consider 13 as a D1 lynch. (Of course, if he doesn't produce results that are unambiguously favorable we look more critically.)

I actually really like this for the honesty in the post so there's that.

You're right, my ISO has been basically all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
I can copy all of my thoughts on everyone here, but my heart really isn't into anything regarding scumhunting yet. Like, I won't be proactive now but I think it can be assumed that I will be eventually? I really don't think there are any motivations to be found by my lack of productivity.

Here's a direct (reformatted from Excel) copy of my notes, with one omission. (Only noting this so if I want to bring it up later, people know.)

2 Xigbar:

Reaction to a relatively calm voteswitch by me in RVS. Weird "if you were scum" Q to 12 in P26. Other than this, gut strongly says town mindset-- but based on not much concrete.

4 Vexen:

Flavor entrance, very standard, empty ISO, voteable.

5 Lexaeus:

Pushes 12 for inv-immune. Probably just in a frivolous/reac-test way. I tend towards townreading. (Okay, nvm. It seemed genuine.) P53 seems pretty town at first glance, feeling strongly as towniest post in the game.

6 Zexion:

Lots of content. Pushes 5 for noisemaking which at face value makes no real sense but is a believable push for town to make. Votes 13 for bad reasons. Overall P47 makes me feel just a little bit weird, entertaining possible narrative of scum with strong presence? Unsure how much conviction he actually has (the less the better, honestly). P56 is towny.

12 Larxene:

Claiming inv-immune. Not impressive but claim tends towards town.

13 Roxas:

Asks to be checked, says will claim if needed. Opens with scumread me and townread 12.

Alright I actually think you're town.
We seem to have relatively different posting styles/sharing styles but in that it doesn't seem to matter because it seems as though your contributions are solid enough when you do contribute in a manner that I can read and follow.

I don't actually recall what exactly made me switch to Xigbar in 18, but it was likely because I thought it was okay to let Lexaeus stay busy with prodding at Larxene's claim, and vote someone who didn't seem as engaged. Yes, I didn't have any particular reason for voting Xigbar. I am generally more of a passive player. I don't think this is a bad thing when the game is moving fine on its own. I think it's fine for me to move and act at my own pace in this environment.

VOTE: Luxord

Quotes mentioning Luxord I didn't pull: You questioning people questioning Lux. You responding to people calling Lux scum by not mentioning him at all. You quoting people quoting Lux. Things I didn't exclude: Any indication you might be either attempting to read or reevaluating Lux.

How does this not tell me you think he's town?

[IV Vexen]

I'm hopping in the shower, but I might be here before deadline.

[IV Vexen]

post 1: this post is null to me
post 2: eh this is seeming honest < still not a townread, still a waffle
post 3: townread
post 4: "this post isn't good maybe I'm wrong" post
post 5: voting a read I waffle on.

I'll give you 1-3. 4 was responding, via thorface to a post that literally came 5 pages before 1. I'm not fucking kidding there. If that was a post that was something worth scumreading him over, you'd have mentioned it already by that point. But you didn't. That's not a reads progression, that's a pile of bullshit you're telling me is a souffle. And that doesn't even address that you said NOTHING about his alignment between 255 and when you're sheeping Xig, on a reasonless vote.

VOTE: Demyx

PEdit: Goddamnit, can I vote Saix too?

[IV Vexen]

While you've got the time waiting for the lynch to go through or not, tell me exactly why voting a townread because you did isn't suspicious behavior, Xiggy? Cause that's possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

I liked Larxene 1.0. I feel very strongly that the Axel claim is a scumclaim to buy him an extra day, but don't have the charisma to push that lynch through. I don't think following a townread on a good vote is the "stupidest thing ever"; I think voting said townread would be the "stupidest thing ever".

Reading comprehension is fun!

I'm not saying Demyx's thing here is stupid (which it is, but that's irrelephant.) I'm saying that notThor saying Demyx should definitely be blindly sheeping him onto a townread and that that isn't suspicious at all is. And it is. Very much so.

TBF, I'm starting to think he's a VI instead of scum, but 100% guarantee that it's one of the two.

[IV Vexen]

notThor is the VI, btw, not Demyx.

[IV Vexen]

So this is going to be a lot of stuff that I can't particularly explain well because I'm trying to connect the disjointed pieces myself but I feel like the end result is that Vexen is scum. Bear with me here.
So really early in the game I saw that comment and was like I know who that is. Off of an incredibly obscure alt guess based on something that happened in -a game-, but it was like pretty firm. Then I was like, wait this guy literally never plays anymore there's no way it's him.

Okay, so this leads me to believe you might know who I am.

So scratch that. It comes to a head later in the game with my push on him because I'm like scumreading him with a blank slate on the alt guess, then Zexion flips out at me, and I'm like calling me Thor and making everything about -me- seems like something someone who knows me and is scum pretending not to because their scumpartner was like 'HEADS UP THIS IS blank' would do! And I was really sure that they were scum then I tried to pinpoint exactly who it was and then it came back to the comment in the previous post and I was like oh shit the timeline kind of adds up, they wouldn't know who I am, they wouldn't have the context to say things about ego.

And I continue to not know who you are, so... I have no idea why someone who knows who I am would think I'd know who you are.

And I generally recall them being -somewhat- tonedeaf in the way a lot of older posters are in the previous game, not as tonedeaf as they've been this game, but okay. I'll buy it. Especially since the major reason I scumread them was them saying things that felt to me like they know who I was but claiming not to. Then -something- happened recently that turned this to a head: not only do they still play, but

I have played games with them and held out of game conversations with them and they've played enough to generally understand the meta.

They would INDIVIDUALLY figure out who I am, they don't need the aid of a scumpartner to do so most likely. And it sounds like burden of proficiencying but they're really not as bad as their play in this game would indicate. Like I was happy to say okay they're bad town who hasn't played in years who can't get over all this shit that they deem anti-town: fine. But as it happens that's not the case and I can no longer make excuses for the scummy shit they do.

This... makes me think maybe you don't know who I am, because I can't think of a single person who would think this. Go ahead and make your guess so I can ignore it but know if you're blowing shit out of your ass as directed or what. The bold is particularly not true. Can't go into it without risking getting too close to revealing myself to risk given the rules, but the list of people who I've had significant out of game conversations with and the list of people I've played with in the last year are mutually exclusive.

[IV Vexen]

Yeah, tigers works well, but the broken UI is super annoying. Also, I saw the slip and still have no idea who you are, so.... :shrug:

[IV Vexen]

Has Antihero already started drinking today?

as this question is not related to a public mechanic or vote count, we will not be answering but instead advising xigbar to blow it out his ass

How many votecounts and public mechanics has Antihero been drunk for?

[IV Vexen]

Like I was happy to say okay they're bad town who hasn't played in years who can't get over all this shit that they deem anti-town: fine. But as it happens that's not the case and I can no longer make excuses for the scummy shit they do.

FTR, I'm not bad at this game. Better at setup spec, role optimazation, and scumplay and finding and lynching scum, but still. Not bad.

Would definitely like to hear about what I've been focused on that is antitown instead of scum. It'll at the very least be good for a laugh.

[IV Vexen]

EBWOP: than finding and lynching scum. 1 in the afternoon and I'm drunker than an Antihero on St. Patties Day. Calling this one a win.

[IV Vexen]

Mod, do scums have a day chat?

I'm pretty sure the only anti game where scum didn't outright have daychat that I've ever seen, there was an encryptor. It's a pretty safe assumption.

Mod, do scums have a day chat?
Was the scum PT open before the game began?

I think people need to realise that what Axel did (or didn't) do can't be proven. I would believe his claim only if the answers to both the questions above were negative.

So uh. The gif of Axel, the ability flavor title being a quote from Axel, and the "ground on fire" bit being one of Axel's powers in canon don't count as proof?

Nope.
Coz wiping a night could still be a scum ability, and scum!Axel could have either done it himself or could have shared the message from his teammate if the scum pt is open throughout.
If he is a town, he is now effectively a vt. If he is a scum, he is a scum. He is useless to the game. Best to lynch him.

How exactly is skipping a night a useful power for scum?

Saix is town. Please go bother someone else.

How could you possibly come to this conclusion?

Marluxia, you think that Axel is scum? How do you feel about Vexen chainsawing the fuck out of everyone who goes after him? Everyone, that is, except Zexion, who he only asks questions to.

Note: Chainsawing now means pointing out the scum motivation of posts the player makes, and everyone now means Saix.

If you can point out where I "chainsawed" anyone named Xemnas, Larxene, Marluxia, or Zexion (Also known as everyone other than Saix who has voted Axel) I'll self vote this fucker and we can all talk about how brilliant you are in the post game. Hint: You can't, because you're making shit up.

In other news, I have 0 qualms voting Demyx, Saix or Xig. If on the off chance any of them is town, I think it will still actually increase town's chances for them to be dead.

VOTE: Saix

[IV Vexen]

You're right Dem! I did point out the scum motivation of your posts, i.e. lack of accountability for the flip. Now tell me why you think I'm scum for that.

Never mind. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself. You're showing some improvement, at least, even if your natural talents do fall woefully short of my own.

inb4 the accusations of attacking the player instead of the argument, I've literally been looking for a reason to use that quote since Anti told me I couldn't add it to my sig. Apparently, then he'd have to find one for everyone and he wouldn't let me do that. Also disappointed that no one else has their sig turned on.

[IV Vexen]

whoever is trying to push that isn't axel's ability when the flavour is v specific about it being is cracked but that kinda crazy is probably town? like I cant see scum thinking they could seriously push that shit lol but I see it from town more often I feel. thoughts on that, xiggy?

Too stupid to be scum is an argument that only works if their not provably a moron. In this case, it doesn't work.

[IV Vexen]

I'm getting a little too close to personal attack territory here, so I'm gone til tomorrow. I don't want to be the angry snarky asshole I left the site as. I'd much rather be happy and friendly. I should be back tomorrow, but I'm helping 4 different friends move over the next week so I'm likely to only post late at night.

[IV Vexen]

(In case it's not clear, that's a preemptive apology to anyone who is offended by my declaring them an idiot. I can't promise to stop, but I will promise I don't intend to be malicious. If I cross lines, let me know. I don't want to be that guy anymore.)

[IV Vexen]

I don't feel like you're actually frustrated enough to have hit that level of attack as town here vs being scum needing to demotivate ppl from wanting to play - and in that case it is working because my drive to play has gone down. no one likes ppl being condescending towards them nd like I get that I've probably even done that this game when ive gotten frustrated with certain slots but I feel even with me you could go back and see a natural progression to it where you're just kinda revving it up in neutral in the driveway with the handbrake on fmpov, y'know?

Regardless of anything else, if I have negatively impacted your willingness to play the game, I apologize. That is not a legitimate strategy as far as I am concerned, and definitely not one I would employ, for two reasons. One winning through town apathy is neither fun nor impressive. I don't play this game to win, I play this game to have fun. Sitting in a thread where no one even talks to you isn't a way to do that.

Secondly, demoralizing the town encourages replacements, which I despise. I have never replaced out of a game. I HAVE lost games to other people being replaced by people who then tunneled me, both as scum and town.

[IV Vexen]

It's okay. Don't worry about Vexen. He doesn't survive today in any universe.

Except any universe in which you can't get me lynched by misrepping me.

[IV Vexen]

Can someone explain to me a world where Saix will tunnel down my throat for "not posting enough in-game content" but doesn't say shit about Marluxia other than calling him a SR once and forgetting about him the entire game?

Or doesn't read your posts/the game at all enough to realize that no actions happened last night.

[IV Vexen]

I have a few problems with Vexen. I do think that you have a point that his attacks look slimy. I think his exchange with you (what little I've read of it, I get bored trying to make sense of it) seems like he's more interested in educating you on how to behave properly and talk about how much he likes Thor and how you're not him - not sure how that's supposed to be him reading you. I think that his attack on Roxas for faking the double vote is super duper bad (and also think it's a bit fishy that he didn't defend Larxene during that time if she was one of his top town reads but I might be misremembering the sequence of events there).

What about my attack on Saix is slimy? Or are you referring to a different attack? Why would I defend Larxene when the entire purpose of lynching her was a deadline utility lynch that was preferable to no lynching? Why wouldn't I attack someone for a lie that literally had no town motivation (apparently, not a lie, but I don't regret pushing originally)?

As far as Xig and Zex goes, I spent an extraordinary amount of my effort yesterday trying to figure out why they knew who each other were because if they're both scum they could easily have told each other. At this point, I doubt I'll be able to figure out enough to be satisfied, what with Zex leaving, but yeah, that was about 1/3 of my energy since I replaced in. Trying to get Saix lynched was about 1/2.

Now what do you mean I was trying to educate him how to behave? Do you mean when I tried to get him to tell me why he was voting Xal? Which he never really did?

[IV Vexen]

I'll wait 24 hours. Time is, after all, on my side.

While we wait, why are you lying about my identity?

[IV Vexen]

So this is going to be a lot of stuff that I can't particularly explain well because I'm trying to connect the disjointed pieces myself but I feel like the end result is that Vexen is scum. Bear with me here.
So really early in the game I saw that comment and was like I know who that is. Off of an incredibly obscure alt guess based on something that happened in -a game-, but it was like pretty firm. Then I was like, wait this guy literally never plays anymore there's no way it's him. So scratch that. It comes to a head later in the game with my push on him because I'm like scumreading him with a blank slate on the alt guess, then Zexion flips out at me, and I'm like calling me Thor and making everything about -me- seems like something someone who knows me and is scum pretending not to because their scumpartner was like 'HEADS UP THIS IS blank' would do! And I was really sure that they were scum then I tried to pinpoint exactly who it was and then it came back to the comment in the previous post and I was like oh shit the timeline kind of adds up, they wouldn't know who I am, they wouldn't have the context to say things about ego. And I generally recall them being -somewhat- tonedeaf in the way a lot of older posters are in the previous game, not as tonedeaf as they've been this game, but okay. I'll buy it. Especially since the major reason I scumread them was them saying things that felt to me like they know who I was but claiming not to. Then -something- happened recently that turned this to a head: not only do they still play, but I have played games with them and held out of game conversations with them and they've played enough to generally understand the meta. They would INDIVIDUALLY figure out who I am, they don't need the aid of a scumpartner to do so most likely. And it sounds like burden of proficiencying but they're really not as bad as their play in this game would indicate. Like I was happy to say okay they're bad town who hasn't played in years who can't get over all this shit that they deem anti-town: fine. But as it happens that's not the case and I can no longer make excuses for the scummy shit they do.

This describes 0 people. Why are you lying?

[IV Vexen]

Like, given the timing of it, you probably know who I am. But no one on site since my return has both interacted with me meaningfully inside and outside of games.

[IV Vexen]

My playstyle obviously seems to offend you, the respect that I'm given by others obviously bothers you, so you pretend that you don't know who I am and bash me anonymously?

Has anything I've ever done ever led to the impression that I'd bash people anonymously?

And given this, are you House? Cause if so, yes, you offend me and I dislike you thoroughly.

[IV Vexen]

Actually, could be Varsoon, but I'm pretty sure he knows I don't dislike him as a player, just things that I see as playing against his wincon.

[IV Vexen]

as a person, I mean.

[IV Vexen]

This describes 0 people. Why are you lying?

How would you know if it describes zero people? That's a profoundly illogical position to hold given that you supposedly don't know who I am, so you don't know who would even serve as a starting ground to make that work out! Even if you did know who I was, it's pretty difficult to figure that NO ONE on mafiascum fits that profile for me.

Why am I lying tho

So you're claiming you're someone who is both in one the games I've played in and someone I've interacted with since returning.

The latter list is people I know for sure aren't in this game,

redacted

. That's actually more than I expected, but none who were in the games with me barring secret alts. I'm redacting it because listing people I've had convos in site chat with publically is pretty close to claiming who I am.

[IV Vexen]

so the rest of this conversation can wait until postgame

Nope, we're having it. Because it's eminently relevant to your alignment.

[IV Vexen]

I am not oblivious to the Thor comments or the 'why would scum strongman me!' to attack my ability.

Let's be perfectly honest, I'm not doing any of it for those reasons.

Me and thor have an interesting relationship. While he probably doesn't know me particularly well, he's one of the people on site that I truly believe is better than me at basically every facet of mafia (No one is better at power roles and setup breaking). I thought you were him early on and was incredibly excited. I'll admit the notThor bits are because I was disappointed in you not being him but that shouldn't have any bearing with your ability to argue.

What specifically do you mean 'strongmanned in an Antihero game'? From this thread, I can do the legwork to find out who has been strongmanned in Antihero games myself. And there's a pretty short list of names you could be if we've played recently.

[IV Vexen]

Oh shit, I know who you are.

For the record, I don't dislike you persay. You're neither one of the names still on my blacklist (ika, reinoe, House, wake) nor are you somebody I think is inherently bad at mafia. If you think that, why didn't I lynch you over the town person in the game we just finished? Like, I feel like you should be able to tell that. I do dislike the self voting you're prone to, but I can admit your reads tend to be oddly accurate for reasons I don't understand most of the time.

[IV Vexen]

Which... means I really need to stop reading you. Okay, I'm gonna need a cop result on you ASAP.

[IV Vexen]

Oh... 438. Yeah, that's because you were directing any and all protectives we have at you on N1 with an innocent child in play. Additionally, while I don't remember much setup wise of the Antihero games, I don't remember strongman as being more common than for other mods. I like it, sure, but that doesn't mean Anti does. If my experience with Anti holds true, lotsa roleblocking, lotsa daytalk and possibly inventors.

Why do you think I specifically would have figured out who you were?

[IV Vexen]

Meh.
I wanted to wait for something that would give me a lot more momentum but with people replacing out I'd like to just end this game now.

It's obviously not my style but both for the sake of making a point and thinking that I just haven't done this enough I'm going to create a pretty comprehensive case.

I do feel like in general if you're trying to convince town bits at a time is better than one whopping nuke but I'll have time to get everyone on my side later. This is about making a point.
Your gods are not our gods, Axel. The people that you worship are dead and gone, and you're not even an old player. Nor a good one, frankly.

My playstyle obviously seems to offend you, the respect that I'm given by others obviously bothers you, so you pretend that you don't know who I am and bash me anonymously?

Please. It's pathetic and you need a serious dose in humility.

This was @me then?

Holy shit. Dude, if you know who I am and this was intentional, then you just one upped house. I will demand an answer to this in post, but if you know and you posted this anyway, I will kindly request you never speak to me again. The only reason this isn't already the first game I've ever replaced out of is because I'm having trouble believing anyone would ever be so crass as to make this post.

V/LA

til monday. I cannot deal with this right now.

[IV Vexen]

I was offended at what I felt were repeated attempts to demean me behind a veil of anonymity. If rather than intentional lambasting you just played badly, I retract what I said.

No. You don't get to fire a gun and then say oops I overreacted.

Did. You. Know. Why. That. Post. Hit. Me. So. Hard?

[IV Vexen]

I will take your word on it. As far as I'm concerned, you don't even need to apologize, but I feel like I should explain myself.

Look for my most recent post outside of the mafia threads and you should understand.

I'll get back into this as soon as I can.

Axel is town by role.

Zex is only ever scum if Xig is, so...

And good luck lynching me. You should know I'm almost as hard to lynch as you when I dig my feet in.

[IV Vexen]

If you keep throwing shade at me without understanding the intent, you are doing exactly what you are proclaiming to avoid. I will not be replacing, but I will not be interacting with you. Your name-calling in an earlier post was uncalled for, but this required quoting you.

I apologize, and in hindsight can admit that that was a good point and avenue of questioning. I

may

be tunneling you. It's something I do. If that makes you not want to play, tell me and I will try to be less aggressive. I will make no promises, but I don't want to make this unfun.

On the other hand, simply saying you're not going to interact with me in the future isn't really acceptable from a town PoV. If you're town, you should know that you need to try to read me for alignment. Tell me to back off if I'm being a dick, but don't say you're not gonna play the game with me anymore.

Xigbar's biggest problem is he basing his reads on 1. knowing alts 2. knowing meta of these alts. None of these two things can be verified till the end (unless you have alt-slipped like me, or you are a scum coz scums can disclose it on their PT).

This... isn't entirely true.

If one person corroborates my meta, for example, and that person flips, we can then use that information to judge how I'm acting. It's not particularly useful for you now, but it could be.

For example:

I'm very manipulative and prone to tunneling on things I see as scum motivated inconsistencies. It has lost me multiple games before. I'm also very good at optimal PR play, both as town and scum. As scum, I tend to argue optimal PR play for town anyway, because on my flip people will discount information from that AND I have information that I can then use to swing the PR play in my favor. Additionally, as scum I know that arguing bad PR play will probably get me lynched. There are approximately 5 people I can read with any form of certainty, and the rest of the time I have to rely on reactions people have to me pushing them or pushes people make on me. One of those four people is no longer playing, one I refuse to play with because I see him all the time in RL and it would be incredibly easy for one of us to accidentally learn something about the game through that, one is dead, one is one of our mods, and I firmly doubt any of you is the last. I play through logic, not emotion most of the time and as town I'm either obvtown or lynchbaity for the entirety of the game. As either alignment I actively want to be scumread on D1, but for different reasons. I despise things that I see as playing against your wincon, though I'm aware others disagree on that definition. These things being selfvotes, lolhammers, and 90% of fakeclaims as town. I also dislike gambits like fake dayvigs, because they're almost always useless. Very few people will react in a telling manner to a dayvig, and quite a few will use the opportunity to fake anger.

Xig, on the other hand, is a largely emotional player. He's very good at ATE, and I am fully willing to admit not being able to read him. I said once upon a time that I think it's always to my win condition to lynch him, but the biggest reason behind that is that I can't remember a single game where we were on the same side (Funnily enough, the same is true of Thor). I think he was in a multiball game once where I townread him hard while he was a member of the other scumteam, but I might be mixing him up with someone and it was probably 4 years ago so I can't be bothered to check. His reads are frequently more accurate than I expect from his reasoning, similarly to Titus, and I'm pretty sure he's either the best or second best cop target in the game fmpov with the exception of Roxas if I'm right as to his identity. His here being the pronoun of the slot, not the pronoun I believe Rox to prefer. I'm still gonna use he unless requested otherwise.

Rox, assuming I'm right as to who it is is also a largely logical player. Frequently, they enter a game by calling a significant portion of the people in it town for almost no reason. He was a bit of a boogeyman when I first joined, similar to Thor and AngryPidgeon, when I first joined, but that kind of went downhill shortly after. Still, very manipulative and intelligent and I think they'd have made a plan for literally the entire game by the end of page three if they're scum. If they are scum it's likely not with Xal or Saix as they would've been coaching from the scum PT for literally the entire game (assuming daychat, which given Anti is like 95% in my mind) and whatever else you say neither Xal nor Saix look coached.

I'm pretty sure I have little to no experience with anyone else here, although I'm guessing Titus is the Cali person people thought Rox was (and god, no.) and if she was here I used to be good at reading her for some reason. (I literally have no idea why, I could just always tell when she was bullshitting me and faking moonlogic. <3 Titus) I'd be honestly shocked if Rox figured who I am out, and more shocked if any of the rest of you did without some serious legwork.

Clearly, you can't take this as gospel truth, but when Xig weighs in to tell you that I'm telling the truth about him and myself and Rox confirms/denies who I've intimated he is, you can trust that the information is at least relatively correct. If I flip town, you can then trust what I said more because you'll know it was the truth from my PoV.



Not that I think meta is a particularly useful tool here, and usually when I use it it's as scum to try and look like I'm doing something. But that's the extent of the information I can share since I looked at the rules again and realized the can't reveal other people's identities in thread bit is probably relevant to everyone and not just an extension of the scum can reveal to each other rule.

[IV Vexen]

954, btw, makes me think I might be wrong on Saix. I was definitely jumping to conclusions on his motivations there, and the ones he said he had are pretty excellent in hindsight. I will need to reread to confirm, but the post just reeks of town annoyed someone is tunneling them and he's definitely scumhunting in it.

Xal, what say you? Whom would you have targeted had we had a night phase last night.

[IV Vexen]

Because as a tracker giving out that information to scum is a genius idea vexen.

A dayphase should be more than enough time for reads to change and your desired targets to change with them. More, you said yourself that you no longer have 4 targets tonight. I can maybe see waiting till tomorrow for actually claiming it, but did you or did you not have your targets picked out?

Town was terrible because they lynched Larxene

Town was terrible because they lynched Larxene. That was a deadline flashwagon on a miller claim. The fact we had a deadline flashwagon at all means we haven't been playing well. The fact that it was basically a policy lynch doesn't help.

I'm actually pretty concerned on the lack of support for the wagon on me given Xig's townread in the eyes of God and everyone and the lack of townreads on me. It seems... off.

Xiggy, finish your case on me. I want A. to rebut and B. to see what people do.

[IV Vexen]

Actually, fuck it. I demand at least a paragraph regarding me from everyone.

EVERYONE!

(Saix can be excused if he hasn't gotten over the fact that I'm kind of an asshole, but I would like to point out that I'm trying to not be kind of an asshole.)

[IV Vexen]

Actually, fuck it. I demand at least a paragraph regarding me from everyone.

EVERYONE!

(Saix can be excused if he hasn't gotten over the fact that I'm kind of an asshole, but I would like to point out that I'm trying to not be kind of an asshole.)

No

Why not?

[IV Vexen]

Xaldin ISO is basically compromised of:
> talking about role interactions
> talking about flavor
> small push on xig
> halfway through all pretenses of scum hunting are gone.

Town ISO? Don't think so.

Maybe, but I want to see his results first.

[IV Vexen]

I don't know how to read Vexen. More content later.

Will advise. I'm cheeky as fuck. If I do something that makes the game unwinnable for scum, I'm town. If you're liking what I'm doing and think I'm town, I'm invested in the game. If I say something is an optimal strategy, I'm telling the truth with the possible exception of knowing about a scumrole that can work around it. If I'm shouting at you to do something because I'm a wizard, do it because I'm about to win us the game. If one of a list of people who most of CANNOT be in this game and some of PROBABLY ARE NOT in this game say I'm town, you take that shit to the bank and have them write you a receipt of deposit, because that's solid gold. If Titus says I'm town, she's scum, regardless of her actual alignment. If I say I'm scum, don't lynch me because doing that will lose you the game somehow (no kidding, that's actually happened). If TTH starts posting erotic fiction, don't read it, it's addressed to me.

tl~dr: You're probably not going to have a good read on me regardless, but it's okay because I usually start scaring scum and eat a nk and no one ever protects me.

Now I notice you're noticeably short of a paragraph. And I dislike this turn of events.



MOAR PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT VEXEN!

[IV Vexen]

Xem, Demmy, Rox, Axe, and Lux have all refused to talk about me. I take this to mean one of three things:

1. They think I'm town and don't think there's anything worth discussing.
2. They're scum and they're super worried about pulling my attention to themselves.
3. They don't think I'm pretty.
4. They have a null read on me and can't find enough to talk about for a whole paragraph which means they're not reading the thread.

The rest of you can get slotted into one of those too. All you have to do is ignore me completely instead of discussing why someone who is at least relatively controversial is town or scum or somewhere in between.

[IV Vexen]

I'm gonna go talk to myself somewhere else. Be advised, the next step in my evil plan is asking seemingly random questions of people I don't believe are participating enough. The step after that is asking uncomfortably personal questions, and I'm pretty sure no one wants that.

[IV Vexen]

Dammit. I wanted to do that.

[IV Vexen]

They don't think I'm pretty.

This one.

Maybe if you had more of Bruce Willis aesthetic I wood be interested, but sadly not.

Yeah, I'm gonna need you to pick 1, 2, or 4 or give me a valid alternative. There's an actual purpose to my post beyond the throwaway joke you responded to.

<snip>

Your attack on Saix was slimy because of how hard you tunneled on an insignificant basis. The thrust of your case against him was that his tunnel on Axel had bad reasoning supporting it, and you ignored places where he looked town in his push on Axel. If I were in your position and townreading Marluxia as hard as you were, I would have defended her harder before the deadline lynch have. The nature of your read seemed like it was beneficial to a scum you. I thought your attack on Roxas for "lying" was shallow - no town motivation, perhaps, but didn't see the scum motivation you do.

I'm not super interested in having a big drawn out discussion like you seem to be. My observations are not definite scum tells, simply things that I think make sense coming from you as scum. If you are concerned about me townreading you, continue scumhunting and playing the game and with any luck I'll be able to town read you in the end. If you are concerned about reading me, attack me.

I don't particularly want a big drawn out conversation, I want hard stances taken on me, so that I can crawl into your brain and lay my eggs. I don't see how attacking you is going to help with that, but making you explain your thoughts on me will.

What about my Saix tunnel is insignificant?

Assuming you mean Larxene instead of Marluxia, why didn't YOU defend her more strongly in 855? It certainly seems you had more reason and thought on that read than I did, given that the core of my read was "optimal miller play, reevaluate if necessary."

And the attack on Rox was perhaps uncalled for if he's not who I thought he was, but I wouldn't be surprised by a mason claim as scum from that person, so damn right I was calling things out that struck me as odd.

Axel is town by role.

Why is Axel's role town? It blocks a kill, sure, but it doesn't allow town power roles to action, and it doesn't give us an additional mislynch.

I dislike this read. I think it's a lazy position and one that a partner is likely to take, as Xigbar noted before.

Except... Yeah, so Axel's power provably automatically succeeds at doccing someone. It's literally the inverse of the beloved princess role. There is no purpose to the role as scum, because it neuters their strongest asset. It doesn't give a full mislynch back, but it does give half of one which given any protective roles or additional kills means a hell of a lot more than your implication. The "It stops night actions" bit is more in line with a mass roleblocker, an actual scum role. The difference of course is that in that situation, you can still likely have a nightkill. The thought that trading the nightkill for the failure of all town actions presupposes that the town is heavily balanced in towns favor otherwise, and Anti doesn't believe in balancing games on a single role. Axel being scum presupposes that Anti would make a scum role whose sole purpose was to be a town claim, and that doesn't match what he's done in any of his past games AFAIK.

Rox wall appears town, and as he's not the person I think he is then he's doing an excellent job of impersonating her.

[IV Vexen]

<snip>

You and I are cut from different cloths, Vexen. Whereas it might be in character for me to sheep and prod dodge for the entirety of a day, you've written beautiful poetry about how great and persuasive and hard to lynch you are. Shouldn't a player of your caliber be defending your townread with righteous indignation?

"He claims mason as scum!" doesn't justify pushing on something that lacks scum motivation. The rest of your posting is either something that I've explained already, or is something that I don't feel will be productive to engage.

When the wagon popped up with hours til deadline and was in fact a utility lynch? No. I don't see any reason to shout to the heavens that we should be doing something else at all.

As far as Rox's motivations were concerned, that's exactly what was suspect. The person who Rox apparently isn't doesn't do things for shits and giggles. They have an evil plan, and the fact that I didn't know why they were doing what they were doing WAS the big red sign that said something wasn't right. If town, they would have had a clear reason for why they were doing what they were doing (and not sharing it with me hurts my chances of being able to optimize or fix it, along with doublevoter not fitting at all with their first post of the game.) If scum, they would have a clear reason for what they were doing and sharing it would have literally told me they were scum. Yes. I think figuring out someone's alignment is worth a vote. Now that I know Rox is not person whose name will be said in post because I don't wanna get modkilled for skirting rules, that's pretty null. The argument that I should not have done what I could to attempt to figure out someones alignment though is pretty

Axe isn't scum. I'm basing this on two things: 1. The knowledge I have of Anti given that he was my favorite mod and I AT LEAST read every game he was in/modded while I was active. 2. To a lesser extent, the shit-tier wagon on him for most of D1. I'm not saying that there's no way I can reconsider. I'm saying, on D2 with a single flip he's pretty much going to have to come out and say he's on the scumteam for me to suspect him given the role he's confirmed to have.

[IV Vexen]

Anti would not put his name on a game whose balance he thought was questionable. TTH and Anti almost certainly balanced this together.

Also no shit TTH did the flavor. You'd be able to tell that from reading the name of the game if you knew them.

[IV Vexen]

And why aren't you voting Roxas?

Because lynching him for saying he has a townread on himself by meta is the pettiest shit I can possibly think of and at the very least you've just told us you're not interested in playing the game?

[IV Vexen]

The flip and the flavour have already confirmed this is far more of a TTH modded game than an Anti modded game so even if you weren't scum that holds phenomenally little water.

Also, to confirm, Anti has responded to the last three mod question PMs I sent, along with the one I sent asking if you were a colossal dickbag. So he's 100% involved.

[IV Vexen]

They are getting lynched whenever I put myself together IRL long enough to get a coherent case on them.

[IV Vexen]

Lex probs town, btw.

[IV Vexen]

Why are you focusing on a policy lynch, if town?

[IV Vexen]

I'm not. I just want tonights tracker results, because I think they're incredibly valuable regardless of his alignment.

[IV Vexen]

regardless of his alignment

[IV Vexen]

Also, Demy, please do not claim.

Tomorrow is massclaim day, assuming I've missed my guess entirely.

[IV Vexen]

I haven't, not I have.

[IV Vexen]

Why is Roxas advancing the scum wincon then?

[IV Vexen]

Again, parsing. Why do you believe Roxas is advancing the scum wincon, not why would Roxas advance the scum wincon.

[IV Vexen]

Just got a call and have to go pick up a friend from work. Will finish and post theory wall when I return.

[IV Vexen]

Oh. call for theory post is in saved theory post draft. I've come to the conclusion that if I'm not transparent with my thoughts here I will be killed and my thoughts will be lost. Cya later.

[IV Vexen]

I just realized I've been calling myself a wizard again, and that means I'm probably getting shot, so setup spec time.

Inscrutable Roleblocker

There is at most one more roleblocker/jk. Anti isn't stupid enough to force himself to resolve roleblocker loops.

I can skip tonight's phase if I'm alive or not if I'm dead

Guaranteed doctor. This means that scum probably have some sort of extra kill, i.e. bomb, vengeful, suicide bomber. Also, confirmable role.

I'm a neighborzier each day I pick someone to invite to a game that we play in the neighborhood the winner will be loved the next day while the loser is hated.

Confirmable role. In addition to Rox's doublevote and the IC, this is 4/13. I would be astonished if anyone else's role was confirmable (not alignment, role). Additionally, tomorrow, whoever gets invited shouldn't claim until the day after. The big deal about confirmable roles is that their impact on balance is known. This means vig is unlikely, as they would not only be confirmable, but functionally conftown.

Xemnas is aligned with Organization XIII.

1/2 an investigative, more on that later. Possibly double protective, if so scum have at least a roleblocker to counter. At least one protective role (or Xemnas BP) to ensure the role isn't just a targeted nightkill. Probably something else to the role (me and anti have had conversations about how boring being an IC can be). Would be unsurprised by existence of doc/bodyguard or JK/limiteddoc (possibly odd/even night doc). Probably no weak protective.

I am an aero tracker

Night 1 I can track 4 people Night 2 I can track 3 Night 3 I can track 2 and night 4 and on I can track 1

There are at most 3 town investigative roles, and even three requires something comparatively weak, like a one shot cop. More likely, there are two and both have a drawback, such as tracker giving ambiguous guilties.

I have good reason to ask for this, as it would be an incredible boon to our odds of winning if I become confirmed town.

I can fullclaim if players deem the details necessary.

Implied night action in addition to doublevote. My guess would be something along the lines of target someone each night and get a power based on who you target, which would mean the lack of doublevote today is directly tied to the lack of action last night. If so, you need to target Axel tonight and ignore this post. If not you need to ignore this post. Possibly investigative in nature, in which case you do you, and ignore this post.

Either way, this probably gets shot tonight if town and I'm completely fine with that. Protectives should be on Xemnas until tomorrow at the very least.



Xaldin MIGHT be scum, but I'm not interested in talking about that today for two reasons. 1. I fully believe his claim. If we get a guilty from him, he becomes conftown. If we get 0 guilties from him then we have a good chance of multiple innocents given flips later. There's also the chance he targets someone who fakeclaims an action like Luxord's that doesn't have a night visit as part of their action, catching scum. 2. If he's scum, he can't afford to fake the results. This being a role-madness game, he can't afford to make up results given that the odds are good one of us can call him on it. If he does make up results, he has to do so with his scumpartners, and that's dangerous for him as well in the event that literally anyone else has tracking actions, because that would mean catching two scum with one PR result. Further, he will have to tailor his targets to the townminded tracker targets as opposed to people scum would like to track.

Thus, even if he is scum, letting him live for a day and seeing what he says is not only not a bad idea, but useful for town.


BTW, this means that 6/13 have claimed or flipped, at least partially (as in Rox's case). Tomorrow, we need to massclaim.

[IV Vexen]

First, 6 to lynch is accurate as long as we're all just hated. It would normally be 7 to lynch with 12 alive, so L-3, not L-2. Unless I'm missing something.
Second, I'm STILL eagerly awaiting your case on me Xig. It should be enlightening.
Third, way more likely Xig is talking to Axel, who literally just voted Saix.

[IV Vexen]

Also, mass claim frequently wins games.

FTFY.

[IV Vexen]

FTR, I have varying degrees of townreads or needs a cop reads on everyone except

Xal
Saix
Dem
Lux

I'm fairly certain lynching those four is an autowin, and I don't want Xal to go before using his triple-track so he has to be tomorrow. Today, Saix has given me the impression that he actually does know what he's doing, which is even more damning of his behavior D1. Pretending to be VI to get townreads is not at all something town does, and I can definitely see someone trying that in this.

Not gonna vote there until Xig gets his chance to make me laugh with an attempt at lynching me, but I'm almost certainly gonna vote there later.

[IV Vexen]

Marluxia my reads are that I think there's a pretty good chance you're scum with Demyx and either Xaldin or Luxord.

This is like rain on my wedding day, if such a thing actually was ironic.

Hey now, that song is incredibly ironic. You know, because of the singer, and the lyrics, and the fact that a song that is in fact incredibly ironic gets so much flak for not being ironic. It's meta, man. Oh shit, I said the m-word. Now Demyx is gonna vote me!

First, 6 to lynch is accurate as long as we're all just hated. It would normally be 7 to lynch with 12 alive, so L-3, not L-2.

This is correct. 6 to lynch already takes into account the fact that everyone is hated. Normally, it would take 7 votes to achieve a majority.

Mod-confirmed. I'm good at this.


Xigbar? I'm still here and waiting. Today's the day, buddy. Wow me.

[IV Vexen]

Well, that was a long wait.

VOTE: Saix

[IV Vexen]

Well, Xig, you'll forgive me if I don't wait around again.

Onto bigger and brighter things.

[IV Vexen]

I have half a wall saved. Will return to finish it later. When my stomach calms down.

[IV Vexen]

Spoiler:

Further to my previous post:
I would not like to vote for Marluxia too.
I can't really vote for even my top scumreads. But let's say they are in the scum pile coz there's something about them that's bothering me.
So, no, I can't really differentiate between these 5 at the moment.

This post, by itself, takes everything I liked about Saix's early play and rolls it up into a pile of fencesitty garbage. No, I totally had stances before, but really, all of those people I think are scum aren't worth pushing. There's just *something* bothering me about them. (Something, ftr, is either fluff in the beginning of the game, Roxas not explaining reads, ormy slot being illogical (no shit, he says in this post that he considers being illogical a scumtell), and Luxia's 77, which he waffled on as soon as he brought it up.) Like, a pretty meh bit of posting overall, and then he has to go back and be all, "Nah, I'm not really interested in pushing any of that and I can't really differentiate between them." This is not what town trying to determine alignments looks like. This is someone who came into the game and wanted to be seen as doing something, but really didn't want to take any stances or piss anyone off by going after them.

Post 118 is where Saix promises an elaboration on his Larxene read after an ISO, and then doesn't mention her until after Axel claimed to derail his wagon.

Axel, you are essentially omgus-ing coz there's no reason accompanying your vote.
Why am I likely to be a scum is the reasoning I am looking for. Otherwise, it's a lazy vote and doesn't help the game in any way. If you really think I am scum, the motivation needs to be to take me to L, and you aren't gonna achieve that with this post and such a vote.
I ISO'd you after your suggestion that you have contributed enough. So in a nutshell here's you in the game so far. 7 posts so far. Your behaviour is quite suspicious in following ways.
- You have had no original thought till now in the game. You are responding ato questions, or you are asking others some questions or you are responding to someone's vote or a post or an interaction by giving a verdict (case in point: all your posts exemplify this to a lesser or greater extent). This isn't what a townie looks like to me. Of course it's likely you are still finding your feet and you are under pressure to produce content even as a town, but right now you are coming across as a newb scum who doesn't know how to assimilate himself in the game.
- Expanding on this, if you give a verdict, I wanna know the reason behind it. Analysis rather than verdicts. For example, if you enjoy Marl's posts for their content, I wanna know what appealed to you and why. If you think Xig-Rox is tvt, why?
- Some of your reads are so conflicting with mine that I am compelled to question your thought process. I understand having an opposite view doesn't necessarily make you a scum for me, but coupled with unsubstantiated reads, it comes across as way too off. Like your reason for voting Zex and giving a reason for that as lack of progression of thought disturbs me on two levels. First, I don't understand what you mean by 'progression of thought' and you don't elaborate it, and second, how is 'progression of thought' then reflected in your posts if that's what you are expecting from others.

I guess I am saying the same thing in three different ways. So here's the concise point. You need to do 3 things. 1. elaborate your posts, 2. give a reason for your verdicts, and 3. your expectations from others need to reflect in your own playstyle.

For reference, he's responding to this.

tl;dr- 1. Saix thinks Axel is scum because Axel hasn't contributed enough when the sum total of his contribution so far has been waffly as shit garbage catchup and prod dodging. Axel having only 7 posts is suspicious, when Saix has 6, and unlike Saix, none of Axel's are "I'm really busy, I'll get to this later." 2. Axel isn't making unique observations and is just prompting people to answer questions so he's newbscum but also waffle. 3. Also, when he says things, he doesn't explain them enough. 4. Axel has different reads and doesn't explain them, so must be scum. 5. And finally, (this one really makes me chuckle,) Axel is basically OMGUSing Saix because he doesn't have a reason when voting him.

Now lets tear that apart.

1. Literally everything in Axel's ISO at that point is taking a stance. He found Larxene scummy, but not enough to discount the miller claim. Actually, this isn't an Axel wall, so go look at his ISO yourselves. Nothing particularly compelling, sure, but no lack of content at all.

2. Axel being newbscum is fucking laughable. Nothing about Axel's play indicates newbscum. At all. Possibly scum, but nothing about poking people as frequently as he does indicates the shyness or the insecurity of newb. Also has the wonderful purpose here of confirming to me that Saix has experience with mafia. Newbscum isn't something a raw newbie throws around as a phrase, which we'll come back to later.

3. Actually, can't particularly argue this one. Axel is a little light on elaboration. Spot on, you're 1 for 3.

4. I can't. I just can't even. If this is genuine, it's clear to me that Saix doesn't understand mafia at all. As a concept, as a game, as a player. The idea that having different reads is somehow a scumtell presupposes that everyone reads accurately 100% of the time. Not even just that Saix reads accurately 100% of the time, but literally every player.

5. Saix accuses Axel of OMGUSing. When Saix had said literally two words about Axel prior to this. Because Axel had no reasons. Read post 143. Also, has the great advantage of Axel voting Saix being a unique stance Axel took at this point in the game.

The post in general is a surreal juxtaposition of things that only someone who plays mafia would references and clear misunderstandings of how mafia works at all. It looks vaguely like someone described the game to him using jargon, and he applied that understanding to the game with no contextual understanding. The push itself is garbage, the things he pushes patently untrue or NAI in the slightest for the majority of players. It's the worst kind of fabricated case, the obviously fabricated case. Here is where I developed my Saix is an idiot read. More on that later, though. Probably the biggest eye raiser in this paragraph, though, is the fact that this post (the first unqualified, unwaffly post of the game from Saix, no less) came less than half an hour after Axel voted him.

In his next post, Saix is tired of asking people (Axel) to explain themselves. He demonstrates this by asking Lux to explain something. And, again, 144 is the first place where he asks anyone anything.

He continues with no real content other than talking about how our IC is useless until post 303.

Who is opposed to Axel lynch and why?
This decision can't happen closer to the deadline. Scurrying for a legit lynch at the last moment will results in a mislynch.

Note: the only elaboration on Axle since the garbage from earlier is a naked vote. Additionally, this is a wagon with two participants (Saix and Xemnas, y'know, the useless conftown) compared to the concurrent wagon on Xaldin with twice as many people. It's a fearmongery call to action with more than a week til the deadline, and a great attempt at doing literally nothing to further any discussion in the thread. This is the reason I thought he was scum at first. There is literally no reason to post this as town AFAICT.

About scumreading you: I have already given my reasons for this, which were mild/weak then, but they have only got stronger. You are openly coasting and fluffing. There's literally no content in your posts (don't feel offended, but I have to be honest). Add to that your reasoning for scumreading me which seems more like retaliatory than substantive. In fact, the only doubt in my mind right now is whether a scum will be so openly casual in their approach. But I have burnt my fingers enough times second-guessing myself. If I have to read you as a town, it will be based only on how much efforts you put in, and not based on your lack of effort.

You'll note: his reasons continue to be garbage. His lack of explanation or even examples on how individual posts have "no content" is terrible, and directly contrary to his perceived motivations and actions in the thread. See, hypocrisy in scumhunting in action.

And here is where my vote actually comes down.

In 317 he decides to say that i'm voting him the same way he's voting Axel, which is both patently untrue and displays a clear understanding that A. his push on Axel is terrible and B. his own behavior is terrible. Post 317 is an admission of guilt, and the entire thread literally ignored it.

Post 333 manages to not only completely dismiss my concerns as inconsequential (again), but reiterates that Saix thinks both he and I are doing the same thing he's voting Axel for. Which is not at all the way town thinks.

About Vex, I was already scum-reading his slot. The he replaced and somehow tracked me down for a one-on-one with Axel because of my post on Axel. There are a number of reasons that pinged me badly, but the worst were the following, which I have already outlined in my interactions with him. But here's the gist.

This would be completely fine without:

It doesn't matter what you think of me, but since we are playing a game and are hopefully on the same side, I just wanna say that you read me wrongly.

This, methinks, is not what town thinking "This guy is scum" says. At all. You don't hope your scumread is town. You try to get your scumread lynched. He's bullshitting, and it's the little things like this that on my second read make me think he's intentionally playing poorly. This is a calculated attempt to get me to back off, not an attempt to read me or anything, but one I completely ignored because I was of the opinion Saix was playing on a level below this.

Winding down a bit because I'm running out of time for today, but there's more I need to address.

To everyone, if you are town, I expect you to provide reasons along with the read so that I can better defend myself. If you are not gonna do that, that's deliberately vague coz it gives me no space to defend myself.

This is not a town mindset. He's not worried about your reasons so he can read you. He's worried about your reasons so he can defend himself.

Axel may have promised to skip the night, but anyone who has any night action would have still submitted their actions. Which is why I asked Xaldin about whom they tracked. Coz if Xaldin promises to be who he is, his night action gives me a clue to his thoughts.

If you keep throwing shade at me without understanding the intent, you are doing exactly what you are proclaiming to avoid. I will not be replacing, but I will not be interacting with you. Your name-calling in an earlier post was uncalled for, but this required quoting you.

This is not only a well reasoned post, but an excellent one. It's excellence shining through like this one that make me sure that Saix on D1 was faking his competence level. Town has 0 reason to fake their confidence level. At all.

TL;DR~ Saix has all but claimed scum in the thread, and it's gone ignored for far too long.

[IV Vexen]

I have literally no concern about being lynched today, Demy. I'd rather not have to claim, but there's approximately a 0% chance of my lynch.

[IV Vexen]

Anywho I'm off to see a man about a horse. I'll be back tomorrow.

[IV Vexen]

Would be a shame to try and lynch someone who's really easy to sort when he's town.

Are you intending on giving me any kind of context here or are you expecting me to dig? Because I'm entirely willing to dig, but I'll probably be spending some quality time with your ISO if you're being unhelpful.

Prove it. Be town.

but I wouldn't be surprised by a mason claim as scum from that person

Which player is "that person"?

In the interest of not accidentally breaking rules, I'm going to be vague in a way that virtually guarantees anyone familiar with person understands me. There used to be 2 of him, and now she's embraced her true gender. If that doesn't work, she tends to mod hilariously unbalanced games.

The point about Roxas' call to be investigated in their first post not fitting well with being a double voter make sense, but Roxas has also indicated there is more to their role than double-voting. Do you think having a double vote should be enough to townbin a player in a role madness game?

If they can double in LYLO, 100% yes. On the other hand, he's already claimed he can't, so...

Nah, Rox is a very mild townread, but also a very strong "I need a cop" read. Xigbar is a very mild scumread, and an equally strong "I need a cop read."

What was it about Roxas' double-vote claim with no double-vote in evidence that struck you as so scummy?

Paranoia. If I don't know what "person" is doing, it means they have a nefarious plot. If their nefarious plot isn't clearly townminded or they can't tell me about it, then they're 90% scum with a ten percent chance of ridiculous gambit they should be talked out of. It wasn't so much that the behavior was scummy as that the strangeness of the behavior told me that I needed to pay attention, and I saw literally no town reason to fake a doublevote and then continue faking it, which meant they needed to explain or die. Simple.

In a role madness game we were certain to start flushing out claims once people were getting run up to L-1. You can argue that the run-ups should have started sooner, but that would probably just mean more claims with a similar policy lynch at the end of it all.

In my eyes this is a good argument for No Lynch Day 1 or massclaim Day 1. Not wagoning a shitton of people for claims. Examples of policy lynches I'd prefer over Larxene's role: Luxord's role, any other non investigative, non protective role, direct counterclaims of limited utility roles.

Okay that's actually not true, I do have reads I think that Vexen pushing Saïx is legitimately scummy because seriously you have no better scumreads than that are you kidding me here? And I have PoE on a few slots that should help me ~solve~ when we eventually get a scumflip like Axel/Xigbar never W/W, Demyx/Vexen never W/W, some other people never W/W, me and you never W/W, I could go on.

What is wrong about my case on Saix? At all? Why is he not scum?

Also, I haven't been ignoring you, I just haven't really cared about what you have to say. :sorry:

Making a bad case on Vexen is worse than no case at this juncture. He's still flipping scum and I implore Demyx and Saix, both of whom have expressed general support for the wagon, to vote there.
Saix is flipping town and unless we pull this together here it's a loss.

Sorry that I was somewhat bad yesterday but it's really hard to lynch scum consistently on D1. I still believe that, besides Axel who we unvoted for role reasons, my play was generally good. Larxene absent unfortunately, and I did ask for an extension that we didn't get so we ended up deadline lynching and absent slot, which is super unfortunate but. The long deadline does that to games.

Just please do me the favour of either flat out trusting me on Vexen or withholding your judgement and vote until Tuesday.

Oh, so you haven't given up on me? Yay!

Cool beans, but I get to preemptively respond to this. Any case you make on Vexen is a bad case, because Vexen is town. The game isn't going to be solved by lynching Vexen because A. Vexen is town, B. Vexen is really fucking good at role madness, and C. Vexen isn't going to get lynched today. The attempt to get people to vote Vexen without having to give them any reasoning would be a scumclaim if I had literally any faith in my ability to read you, but honestly just feels like something you'd do regardless. The assertion you have more important things to do will be followed up on, but is in no way worrying. Unless you've no idea who I am (pretty much impossible) or no idea what I'm like (more likely, but still pretty stupid given how well you're claiming to know me) then you should well know that regardless of alignment I actually want to hit L-1 at some point in the near future. Picking apart wagons formed on me is delicious, and it makes me feel all warm and tingly.

Let's set a date for Tuesday, then. Tomorrow. You bring the wondercase, I'll bring the popcorn.

Lux, kindly never use regular spoiler tags again, as they're unreadable on phones and just a pain in the ass otherwise.

PEdit:

Yup, totes something I'd say as mafia. But as mafia I'd STILL be arguing correct play. Because arguing correct play, then having town ignore it because I'm clearly mafia trying to mislead them is literally my favorite way to win a game.

Xigbar knows who I am, with a 95% accuracy. The person who Rox might've been should have been able to figure out at this point, and I have no doubt she's here somewhere given her love of secret alts (Is it you?). There's a very good chance no one else in the thread can even begin to guess without legwork. I'm a relic from a bygone age who spent most of his time talking to relics of bygone ages and sitechat when I was a ms regular. Between all of my secret alts (last count was 6 discounting hydrae) I've played in exactly 3 games (including this one) in the last year.

[IV Vexen]

This is not only a well reasoned post, but an excellent one. It's excellence shining through like this one that make me sure that Saix on D1 was faking his competence level. Town has 0 reason to fake their confidence level. At all.

Your argument here is that Saix asked one good question and told someone to stop tunneling them and thus he was faking his competence level the entire game and is thus scum. This is an insane argument to make.

There are others, but yeah. There are places where he demonstrates an understanding of mafia and how to play it that directly clash with other posts he makes where he demonstrates no such understandings. The options as I see them are A. He's cheating and a hydra of two players of wildly different skill levels but exactly the same posting style. B. He's attempting to lie about his skill level. C. I'm reading into things that aren't really there.

I trust Anti to figure out if it's A. I trust that B. means he's scum, because there's literally no use for that behavior as town. I trust that if C. someone will talk me down from my deathtunnel now that I have shared my concerns with the class.

Why exactly is it insane? Do you not see a distinct gap in skill levels between some of the things he does and others? Do you not see the scum motivation behind B?

[IV Vexen]

Lux, kindly never use regular spoiler tags again, as they're unreadable on phones and just a pain in the ass otherwise.

Quoting for emphasis. Really, you don't know how annoying I find this.

PEdit: Wasn't intended to be subtle. Was intended to not break any rules. My bigass meta post wasn't subtle either, and I'm not trying to hide my identity at all, so :shrug:

[IV Vexen]

I realize that, but thank you for the consideration.

[IV Vexen]

FWIW, Xig has site activity, including MD activity on his main (Though very little MD activity). I see no mentions of any RL crisis that may be preventing posting, though I will admit I haven't looked exceptionally hard. I DO NOT find the chance he's merely focused on other things unlikely, but I feel this to be worth mentioning.

[IV Vexen]

He's not

Prove it.

Because I'm trying to Lynch confscum

Oh, so Anti added insane daycops to the setup, cool.

Aren't you supposed to be making a case or something? (Hint: I really want to see this case. There's a burning desire deep within me, and I want that desire fulfilled. Anything else is just being mean to me for the sake of being mean to me.)

[IV Vexen]

I will reread Lex/Zex together, Lux, but I find it unlikely due to a townread on Lex and a notscumwithoutXig read on Zex.

I don't see scum Zex getting into those big interactions with Xig early as very likely unless it was a huge pile of scum theater designed to show us they can't be buddies.

Don't have the time to devote now, but what do you think about Saix?

[IV Vexen]

Getting ready to leave, Demy. Anything quick you need? I should at least be able to read the thread in about 9 hours, but I'll be largely incommunicado til then.

[IV Vexen]

Also considerably less useful to have a blow by blow from you, Xem, given we don't have to read you. I wouldn't mind one from Lux though.

And... I'm out of here. See y'all later, fools.

[IV Vexen]

I'm a relic from a bygone age who spent most of his time talking to relics of bygone ages and sitechat when I was a ms regular. Between all of my secret alts (last count was 6 discounting hydrae) I've played in exactly 3 games (including this one) in the last year.

I may know the secret alt you are referring to (in that I spent time on site chat and saw an alt which fits this description talking on there), but I never did figure out the identity of the person behind said alt.

If in fact it is the secret alt I believe you're talking about, that alt has since been publically revealed. Most of the sitechat regulars could tell you who they are and I'm pretty sure their last post on site was to be replaced by their main. I will neither confirm nor deny that that alt is me.

[IV Vexen]

I have a strong altread now fwiw, which comes with a fair bit of caution about your alignment.

Huh. Sounds like someone knows me, but I have literally no idea who you are.

If you know me, you probably also know that leaving me alive a few days is very protown, because there's a decent chance I'll end up confirming myself by doing something to guarantee the town win or coming up with a master plan to win the game that relies on lynching me.

[IV Vexen]

Anywho I'm off to see a man about a horse. I'll be back tomorrow.

Did you find the horse?

I don't use heroin, I was just not telling you what I was actually gonna do.

[IV Vexen]

Vexen saying that he thinks he's going to be nightkilled tonight is baffling.

I don't anymore. But I was doing this thing I occasionally do where I was bragging about how much I had figured out and withholding the information. That usually ends up with me being nightkilled and incredibly frustrated by the lack of people figuring out the things I thought were obvious, hence the theory dump.

[IV Vexen]

So fucking tempted to vote for Vex. Two different people in the same slot finding me suspicious? That's a big, big coincidence. I mean, either I am generally very scummy such that two independent people filling the same slot find me scummy, or that slot is scum as fuck.

Again, something faked.

He's been either engaging with me or dismissing me for the entire game. I haven't been prodded, let alone replaced. The previous Vexen did what amounts to fuckall, and I'm pretty sure without double checking that he didn't even mention Saix, let alone scumread him.

MOAR ROAP.

[IV Vexen]

Oh my god I'm glad I don't care about this game because I would be flipping tables over this lynch right now

Luxord why don't you scumread me?

Flip tables. Why is it a bad lynch?

Also, please explain open wolfing. Is that a new phrase for carnival of insanity, where someone makes their scum alignment clear and then fills the thread with noise and garbage to muddle all of the waters until town is ineffectual? Why would that strategy be a legitimate one in this game?

[IV Vexen]

There are places where he demonstrates an understanding of mafia and how to play it that directly clash with other posts he makes where he demonstrates no such understandings.

Not everything that you believe is true. You may have a strong opinion on the "right way to play mafia", but there isn't an established right way to play mafia.

If he's new but has a few games under his belt, some of your discrepancies are null and void.

He hasn't talked about his skill level at all and hasn't pretended to be a caricature of a mafia player, so the only reason you think he's new is because you disagree with some things that he said. That's insane.

There isn't a single right way to play mafia. There are many wrong ways to play mafia. Let's try an experiment though.

@Saix

Is your experience level with forum based mafia:

A. 0-1 completed games.
B. 2-5 completed games.
C. 6-15 completed games.
D. 16-100 completed games.
E. 101+ completed games.

[IV Vexen]

Also, 1314/1315 in juxtaposition is hilarious.

[IV Vexen]

That's probably fair actually, but it's just me fucking around not trying to fuck with you

In case you haven't noticed I don't actually care about who wins this game. I mean I already know that scum are going to win and that's cool and stuff, not really bothered with trying to do much about it, I know I said I was going to come back and be serious but then RL stuff happened and I changed my mind so now I'm just trolling around waiting for the game to be over, mainly I just hope by some miracle I get nightkilled before endgame

For fucks sake. Scum are not going to win this. Xig is going to try to lynch me all of today (still waiting on that case, btw) but there's enough activity now that we can and will get a lynch on scum. We WILL succeed. There is simply no other option worth considering.

[IV Vexen]

Saix will never answer that question

Big post coming tonight

Oh?

I can make him.

Saix will answer the question because to not answer it is an admission that he's attempting to obfuscate his skill level. There is almost no information gained other than that from that post, and it doesn't meaningfully narrow down his identity.

Honestly I'm surprised no one started this game with RQS given the fact that it WOULD actually be useful in this game, as opposed to most games.

[IV Vexen]

1332 was the most town thing Lux has posted all game. And 1334 ruined it. Thoroughly.

Zex, if you want some personal advice to help you get out of your funk, the fellows over in site chat are always willing to lend an ear. I'd also be happy to offer my armchair psychiatry help through spoilers with the caveat that you understand I'm in no way trained and not really the best at empathy.

[IV Vexen]

I think it's alt games in general.

It's not just one player. Xigbar thinks Demyx is town, but he's didn't even yell at this sudden wagon that sprang up overnight.

I'm thinking it's the combination of several things.

First, this game is not played with our mains, so those in multiple games have to switch back and forth to be able to post. I know from experience that this gets tedious fairly quickly.
Second, this game has been incredibly clicky, and a large portion of the thread doesn't know each other's identities to even attempt to read the clicky-ness that has resulted.
Third, Lurking breeds lurking. The only way to stop it that I've found to work is to directly engage the lurkers, which is frankly tedious for the non lurkers.

I love the idea of secret alt games, but I think I'd have to use the Bad at Mafia ruleset if I ever tried modding one.

[IV Vexen]

At this point I'm just waiting till tomorrow and hardclaiming a guilty on him first thing if I'm alive.

If not, your faults for not lynching him today.

Alignment aside, you're being almost as useful as Dem. If you're town and you fake a guilty on me, you will have singlehandedly lost the game for town and you will be going immediately back onto my blacklist. I don't dislike you as a person, but by Christ above I'd rather games I'm in be vaguely playable.

[IV Vexen]

Xem, I can't find the post where you asked, but an elaboration on my Xig scumread.

I still feel he's trying to overstate how well he knows me OR lie outright about his views on me. In addition, the irrational tunnel on me seems at best overstated, and none of his other reads have been particularly impressive. His interactions with Zex are gross.

The reason that it's mild is that I in fact have no faith in my ability to read him. I'm pretty sure I always end up thinking he's scum, and thus am outsourcing my read of him to PR's or if need be, process of elimination.

[IV Vexen]

Anyway, I'm off to cook. I'll return later, when I haven't been spamming the thread.

[IV Vexen]

UNVOTE:

There is bold theory posting in this. If Xemnas does not directly contravene this, then do not ignore it, regardless of your opinions about me. I may be able to break this game if I live through the nightphase. To that end, Luxord, please target me if you have not already chosen a neighbor today AND live till tonight. Giving you all of my information is more likely to see it coming out than not giving it to you.

Xemnas, I'm demanding a stay of execution from you on the basis that you apparently know who I am and know me well enough to know the following. If I am town, I'm going to both get nightkilled fairly quickly AND suggest a plan of action with a very high chance of solving the game entirely. Mass claim is tomorrow, and I will be winning this game for us if you let me do my thing.

There's a consistency and coherence to their play in this game.

Would appreciate elaboration, but honestly it's a backburner topic atm.

If someone targets me at night, they will be killed automatically.
I can kill someone at night, but if I choose to do so, I will forfeit the first ability.
So, in effect, I have only one functional power but been given the option to choose out of the two.

Lynching is the only likely way I will be shown the door, unless the scum can afford to reduce by 1. I can go to the endgame if people believe me.

Things you have not clarified about your role which you should absolutely NOT clarify about your role:

1. Whether you lose the PGO on the night you choose to kill or afterwards.
2. Whether you regain the PGO on later nights after having killed.

Again, you should not clarify either of these points because A. Such clarification would do nothing for town and B. IF you are town, such clarification would do everything for scum.

You should use your vig shot either today or tomorrow. Don't make it a logical choice. Use Random.org, with a weight of 70 tonight/ 30 tomorrow. The one thing that is most important to your role is getting a kill in addition to the scum kill, so you should shoot someone who is not likely to eat an NK regardless of the scumteam. Choices there are: Xaldin if you kill tomorrow, Luxord, me if I don't end up claiming today (I'm going to, because making scum kill me is better than making town kill me), etc. Under no circumstances should you shoot Xigbar, Roxas or Xaldin. Roxas and Xigbar because of me and my waffling on which to target, and Xal because no fucking duh. If you absolutely have to shoot one of them, let me know and I'll narrow down my choice in the thread today, but your action will fail if we target the same player.

I don't think a scum player would claim this.

I do but I've got no intention of pushing that through, so.

A better way of saying it would be that I don't think the kind of player Saix appears to be would claim this as scum.

Do you disagree?

If this is a fakeclaim, it's a mod provided one. I say this both because Anti traditionally provides fakeclaims and because the role is VERY similar in both construction and scope to mine.

There IS a possibility that this is a scumrole, though a very slight one. In that case, there will be an insane amount of town power, or possibly a bulletproof cop. If there's a bulletproof cop, please investigate Saix tonight. This is why I fucking hate PGO's, they're screwy as all hell for balance.

I did want to townread some of his day 1 posts that expressed a lot of frustration at being scumread while not being engaged, though.

His stances are monochromatic and writ large, and even more so after using his ability on day 1. A playstyle like this makes the player an easy mislynch in some player lists. I feel cautious about scumreading him, and I'm cautious about whether his ability makes sense for scum.

It doesn't, I've waxed poetic about that.

How does me vigging someone confirm me as a town? I could still be a scum and pass off my kill as a vig kill. Alternatively, if I am a town, scum team may desist from killing anyone and frame me as a scum for a single NK. There are several ways in which they can frame me and I don't wanna get into it, but the point is you can never be sure.

Shut up.

The only way you can be completely sure is if there's a cop in the game. If there is a 1-shot cop, better target me and take me to the endgame. Even if you die later in the game coz you claimed, you will ensure that there is a conf town in the end.

Dear god, please. Shut up.

You can be confirmed by balance. It's important, because it's how I win this fucking game, pretty much whenever I play in role madness.

Xemnas do you have any kind of reasoning for scumVexen that you could hit me with?
I'm pretty busy until 5 today/part of tonight, but I can try to look at things if you give me specifics.

I'll work on this to put it into more words. It's various little alarm buzzers. One of the alarms was for the "you should keep me alive for a while even if I were scum" thing he said once or twice. I also felt pretty heavily buddied in our exchange a couple days ago, though to be fair it probably went both ways because I had a pretty strong idea who he is in a player list where I wouldn't hazard a guess for the majority of players. If he is who I think we haven't played together very often and ordinarily we wouldn't have a comparatively congenial chat like that.

EVEN BETTER. Saix, no kill tonight, regardless of what you do. If anyone has a night action that they confirm succeeds (i.e. fruit vendor), target Saix tonight. I'd prefer not to use a protective or a cop, because that is literally the optimal use of his power as scum. Claiming to get a doc or cop target and letting the PGO kill them. In this case, you will be missed, and avenged. Xaldin, don't target him.

Both Saix and Xemnas need to not talk about their roles anymore today.

[IV Vexen]

Alright. Time for the reveal.

I'm both a protective role, and an investigative. I'm probably not going to die tonight, so if there's another protective they shouldn't target me tonight, but I'm almost certainly biting the bullet tomorrow night.

Every night I target someone, and all actions taken against that target fail. If I target someone for the second night in a row, I'm told that person's alignment.

Now you know why I had literally 0 doubts I wasn't getting lynched today.

[IV Vexen]

BTW,

VOTE: Demyx

[IV Vexen]

Okay, once more.

Theory for Xemnas time:

One of the two of us at least will be alive tomorrow, This means that if I'm dead, you need to control the claiming process.

Step one: Massclaim of Night Actions.

Everyone in the thread (with the exception of you) must claim Night Action or No Night Action. Any antitown or compulsive Night Actions must also be specified to be antitown or compulsive. EVERY player must do this before any other claims are made.

Step two: Xaldin claim.

Xaldin must claim, whom, not the result, of everyone he targeted. Anyone who claims to have no visiting action but whom he targeted and found to go somewhere can be outed as well. The two results that are the least town should then claim their targets, with corroboration by Xaldin. The person whom is most town should then have Xaldin claim their target, and let us know if he's telling the truth.

If no one is killed tonight, I will then claim my target. As Saix is not killing tonight, I will not limit myself to just Xig or Roxas. If there is a nightkill tonight, I will not claim my target.

Here's where it branches.

If there is conflicting information (i.e. Xaldin disagrees with someone on whether they went anywhere or where they went) postpone massclaim and lynch within that group, probably Xaldin, as best as you can determine. You should be the hammer, not the initiator of the wagon if at all possible, to allow for better VCA.

If there is no conflicting information, (i.e. Xaldin agrees with everyone or somehow gets the nightkill tonight for some reason) proceed with massclaim.

At this point, everyone but you should massclaim, in an order you provide based on two factors. A. Scummy first and B. Likely to be able to fakeclaim well first. If Luxord neighborizes me, I will leave within my instructions to him a code that between you Xig and Rox you should be able to confirm comes directly from me. This will be to ensure that he doesn't change my instructions in any way in the fairly likely event that he is scum. If I cannot work out a code, I will leave a string of numbers that will be games I have played in, assuming when I PM anti a list of questions momentarily he says I can do that. If he says I cannot, you'll just have to hope he's passing on what I said and take everything he does say with a grain of salt.

Any questions or concerns?

[IV Vexen]

Me too. Sending a PM to Anti then logging off. Hopefully I'll have an answer by the time I get back.

[IV Vexen]

Oh, and if you're a vig shoot Saix tonight, because he'd be 100% lying about his claim and that trade would be wonderful.

[IV Vexen]

You being literally anyone, btw.

[IV Vexen]

Vexen's a hard read for me.

That's okay, cause usually I'm not a terrible mislynch or I pull off something like this. You don't HAVE to be good at reading me, you just have to wait until I'm obvtown.

[IV Vexen]

Xigbar is scum. More to follow.

[IV Vexen]

VOTE: Xigbar

[IV Vexen]

For Lord Vexen, breaker of games, a tribute from your loyal servant:

*If someone targets me at night for a nightkill

Already addressed; see even better section of the wall.

Vexen, re-read the last page.

Saix is not Quite a PGO, he's a Bomb, and it is lost upon activation of the vig shot.

Also I have a proposal.
I'm a protective role as well, though my secondary function is not investigative, which is why I wanted to know if Xemnas could survive a kill attempt. I was going to use that information to decide whether to protect Xemnas or Saix.

The idea was to protect Saix if Xemnas said he could protect himself, so that when/if Scum tried to kill him, his reflexive kill would trigger but he'd still be alive and his role confirmed.
Otherwise, protect Xemnas for obvious reasons.

HOWEVER, having two protectives provides a unique opportunity.
We protect each other, and become immortal. We're then guaranteed to survive to LyLo. If we can lynch even a single scum, we're guaranteed a win.

There's no downside that I can see here.

This is very .

First, scum would never try to kill Saix here, so protecting him would be a waste of time.

Second, outing himself does absolutely nothing for town (assuming he is town) given that he would not have been shot over me and Xemnas tonight. We also wouldn't be guaranteed a win given both of us town and a single scum lynch, because 2v2 is still a scumwin.

ungated strongman

Would be ridiculous not because of balance, but because it would invalidate all of the roles. Like, Axel's is the only one that would interact with a strongman at all.

In the interest of arguing balance, Saix's role is not really a kill deterent but a vigshot from balance. If the first half triggers he's a vig that definitely hits scum. If the second half, he's a normal 1-shot vig. With that said, {Conditional BP, 1/2 JK, Protect, Commute, Inverse Beloved Princess} is too many protective roles. You drop the commute, add something to weaken the unclaimed protective (which we're dealing with when we're not almost to deadline) and that's maybe,

maybe

, all town.

Oh and scum 100% have a strongman: I can choose to shoot everything that visits me with arrowguns and reflexively roleblock everything that targets me.
My role pm explicitly names strongmen as being able to penetrate in a way that 100% suggests to me that they exist.

(that also means no one should be visiting or protecting me fwiw.)

Scumclaim.

I'm not joking, this is 100% a scumclaim.

Roxas' conditional bulletproof as Town seems somewhat OP given all the other protections at play here. As scum, it seems fairly weak, requiring a bus lynch to activate, but the double vote compensates for that, and it would theoretically allow Roxas to kill Saix without also dying.

Yeah, 70% chance of being scum, AFAICT.

[IV Vexen]

Okay, so Xigbar spent all of day one trying to get every protective role in the thread to target him by talking loudly about how he was the obvious night kill. I don't have the time or energy to go quote, but he was worried about coaching everyone because he didn't trust we'd be able to lynch his scumreads after he was dead and gone. Like, look at his whole blow up about how I said he wasn't going to get strongmanned N1.

Clearly Xig was terrified of the nightkill, right? Wrong. Commuter isn't a role that is ever scared of getting killed N1. Commuter who knows about the existence of a strongman might, but his assertion of there being a strongman is far fetched in it's entirety. The other half of his role is an antithesis to the strongman he claims to believe exists. If he is genuinely afraid of getting strongmanned on N1, he doesn't choose to commute. He sends protectives as far away from him as possible, then activates his PGO and KILLS THE STRONGMAN.

Instead, he aimed all of them at him. He, assuming he's being real about his shoot everyone who targets him, gets to kill a considerable amount of town power in one fell swoop. He played his role perfectly, but only if we assume that he's scum.

Additionally, his claim is that he's an informed PGO/Commuter.

FTR, my role PM has nothing about whether there's a strongman or not.

[IV Vexen]

You already made excuses for why you weren't going to die tonight and now you're saying that the protectives should be on you.

What are you smoking?

[IV Vexen]

Also, if I'm 100% scum and have the ability to reflexively roleblock shit that targets me: why does scum need a bulletproof?

Saix.

More importantly, his entrance doesn't make sense for doublevoting conditional BP. Like, none of that is a role powerful enough to go "Hey everyone, target me with investigations night 1."

[IV Vexen]

You already made excuses for why you weren't going to die tonight and now you're saying that the protectives should be on you.

The closest I ever came to saying this was that IF I was still alive tomorrow night (N3, for those following along at home) I should be protected because scum wasn't going to let me get an investigation.

Unless I'm somehow responsible for Lexaeus's suggestion to crossprotect. In which case, sure, I'm arguing to do things I'm actually arguing against doing.



Xig is really phoning this one in. I thought his deathtunnel on me was cute, but he's fucking obvious at this point.

[IV Vexen]

Just noticed he said shoots as a piece of flavor, but roleblocking all of our protectives N1 is also an incredibly scum oriented move.

I'm going to bed. See you all later.

[IV Vexen]

Just noticed he said shoots as a piece of flavor, but roleblocking all of our protectives N1 is also an incredibly scum oriented move.

I'm going to bed. See you all later.

How did Xigbar roleblock all the protectives N1.
None of us even got to protect anything because the kill didn't execute.

Also where is he claiming PGO. I'm 99% sure he said reflexively roleblocks, not reflexively kills.

He didn't actually roleblock everyone N1. He set himself up to. Like, without the Axel power, you were going to protect him or Xem, were you not? I damn sure wasn't but I have a feeling I was the only one in the thread who was of the opinion he was trying to get the nightkill through uncontested. And again, protecting Saix is dumb because the only way he's getting nightkilled is if they absolutely have to. It would be a far easier task to let him sit by himself every night till LYLO and lynch him on the basis that his role never confirmed him. Which means he has to vigshoot before LYLO.

Vexen, re-read the last page.

Saix is not Quite a PGO, he's a Bomb, and it is lost upon activation of the vig shot.

Also I have a proposal.
I'm a protective role as well, though my secondary function is not investigative, which is why I wanted to know if Xemnas could survive a kill attempt. I was going to use that information to decide whether to protect Xemnas or Saix.

The idea was to protect Saix if Xemnas said he could protect himself, so that when/if Scum tried to kill him, his reflexive kill would trigger but he'd still be alive and his role confirmed.
Otherwise, protect Xemnas for obvious reasons.

HOWEVER, having two protectives provides a unique opportunity.
We protect each other, and become immortal. We're then guaranteed to survive to LyLo. If we can lynch even a single scum, we're guaranteed a win.

There's no downside that I can see here.

This is very .

First, scum would never try to kill Saix here, so protecting him would be a waste of time.

Second, outing himself does absolutely nothing for town (assuming he is town) given that he would not have been shot over me and Xemnas tonight. We also wouldn't be guaranteed a win given both of us town and a single scum lynch, because 2v2 is still a scumwin.

Correct, but if both of us are Town and invincible, and Saix is Town, that's a 3v2. Scum then has to kill Saix, because we'd be immortal, and one dies in the process, making it 2v1.

Plus, even if it does somehow wind up as 2v2, we can't die if we're on each other, so that's a draw which is still better than a scumwin.


Protecting Saix before you claimed was contingent on Xemnas not needing protection. Scum would have to kill Saix eventually, but with me on him, while unclaimed, that kill would not be a 1 for 1 trade, but only the attempted killer would die, as Saix is protected.

Yes, two unconfirmed roles and a confirmed one. So... Scum would have to argue the lynch of an unconfirmed player while we'd spent the literal entire game not using our protections. And I'd have gotten one whole cop result.

The only reason I think you're town from this is that your proposed plan would out you as scum incredibly quickly.

And if you do flip Town, Vexen no longer has a leg to stand on and is pretty much guaranteed scum.

Agreed. But when he flips scum I get to be honorary conftown.

VOTE: xigbar

1 you are all pretty shit
2 it's still zex vexen Axel but feel free to Lynch lex for being as bad as he is

Game aside, this is exactly why I blacklisted you in the first place, and I'm damn close to doing it again. Self voting, getting all pissy when people call you scum while ignoring their reasons... I'm pretty sure this is every game I ever played with you. I gave you a pass on this last time, cause it's what I expected from you, and you were scum. I'm not going to let your shitty "Well I'm not gonna play the game then" ATE win you this one. If you don't want to play mafia, don't fucking play mafia. Sit in sitechat like all of the other people who want to be on this site to talk to their friends. With all of that said, I STILL don't dislike you as a person. I just think you need to separate your ego from your game and learn to take it less seriously. Yeah, I'm aware of how hypocritical that is, but for fuck's sake, man.

I have been saying there has been a strongman since early D1 because it was mentioned in my role PM. Further, I was deliberately hunting off flavours to try to find the aforementioned strongman.

Yeah, I never said you didn't REALLY REALLY believe there was a strongman. I took that to be bullshit, because it was. My role doesn't interact in any meaningful way with a strongman, except that it fucking invalidates everything about it. If there's a strongman, my role which is both cool and well designed does absolutely nothing and I might as well be a VT while he's alive. I have never seen an antihero game with a strongman, which is I guess not totally relevant given the more than a year hiatus, but I'm still not going to adjust my play around what I see to be a ridiculous inclusion to the game.

Further, your assertion that you "scumhunting for the strongman" is in any way going to be the best way to find scum is laughable. How does a strongman's play differ in any way from another scum player's. How is looking for a single member of the scumteam the best use of your time? How does any of that make sense as a scumhunting strategy? Spoiler: It doesn't.

This was instead a bunch of posts where you told everyone there was a strongman. Probably because A. You knew one was on the scumteam and were looking for the towncred from the flip which would mean the strongman is the weakest member of your team or B. You were talking out of your ass to distract the town. I'm leaning B, but IF a strongman is proven then look for whichever player is most lynchbaity to find the strongman.

You use protectives on people that you want to stay alive. You use investigatives on people that you think are scum. It's entirely working at cross purposes and it's a role that TTH would never design for that reason.

Yeah, that's called balance. I choose to investigate people who are borderline and have the doc half be useless or I choose to protect and the cop half is useless.

Compare that to your claim of Informed Commuter who was gonna fake a guilty on me but has since said that he's also most of the town power in the game.

You chose a fakeclaim you thought would make sense surviving. I didn't lie down and let you mislynch me. You keep adding more and more bullshit to your role to make it better and make it so you will win the 1 vs 1. Which is EXACTLY what you just said you weren't doing. Flail more.

Vexen has implied that I was worried about eating the nightkill: yes I was because at the level of control and townread I had on day 1 I'd obviously be strongmanned if I'm killed at all. Protectives would always be on me. I believe I also specifically requested at some point that protectives not target me but I'm not going through my ISO again to find it. Vexen also immediately after claiming a role that's at a power level of non-consecutive alignment cop said that he wouldn't die tonight. Why would he randomly not die tonight if he's on the kill list. Like it's super fucking obviously scum just making an excuse for this shit.

BULLSHIT.

1. You were very fucking obvious about your "worry" about specifically being strongmanned. To anyone who doesn't have any reason to believe there's a strongman (Every protective role in the world because fuck strongmen) that looks like "Wow, I should protect that person."

2. You were never going to be the N1 strongman kill. Even IF there was an ungated strongman, there is modconfirmed town in the game.

3. And you were by no means a universal townread, or have you forgotten the half of the dayphase that was you and Zex calling each other scum? The single person who knows you best given your own descriptions, calling you out on your behavior and you're somehow so AMAZINGLY TOWN that scum is going to use a strongman on you over the innocent child on D1? That requires a level of incompetence that even someone who self votes in every single fucking game doesn't expect.

4. I won't die tonight without the conftown status from lynching you. Because my role won't really threaten scum until tomorrow night. They have another full day phase to try to lynch me, to decide whether I'm likely to target them, to figure out a way to derail my ability. The conftown is a far better protection target than I am, and I'm just being up front about that. Making plans for if I do die is just common sense.

Vexen made comparisons to Thor accusing me of being egotistical because I thought Zexion was pocketing me.

No, I legitimately thought you might be Thor because he's the only person I know on site who has a myth large enough to believe, "Hey, scum'll probably use a strongman on me over the IC." I thought your whole 1v1 with Zexion was two scum or that Zex was town from it, but you probably didn't read that part of the thread. You know, all of it. Of course, that doesn't fit in with your little narrative, so it's going to get conveniently ignored. I WAS a little awkward in reading it, because two people who knew each other's identities were reading each other based off of past interactions and I didn't know who either of them were.

And how the fuck does he know what my relationships with people who exist are? I could just be wrong, but why does he think that I'm describing someone nonexistent if he DOESN'T KNOW WHO I FUCKING AM.

That was you talking about your interactions with me. You asserted that A. we had played recently and B. we interacted meaningfully outside of the game recently. The first category is 16 people. The second category contains none of those 16 people.

For the record, for people reading along at home, interacted meaningfully apparently means 3 throwaway comments in the Postgame of a game in which Xigbar shot me Night 1 because he knew I'd be dangerous if left til LYLO over a universal townread. And somehow, less than a month later I'm fucking incompetent and useless and an idiot in this game when he describes me. To be fair, he didn't know my main when he shot me, but still, given the almost 2 years since I'd played a game before that his confidence about knowing me is overstated.

Yeah, BOTH the wagons yesterday were terrible when I replaced in. Literally none of you had a good reason for a wagon. So I attempted to make one that did. And I've thoroughly explained my Saix read, so go ahead and keep beating that dead horse. The you and Zex bit wasn't that you knew each other but that you 100% totally sure about each other on like page 4 after very little in the way of interaction, and the only reason I could see for that surety is that you were scum who were allowed to tell each other.

3) he's just generally scum. Luxord, if it were me being that confident you wouldn't townread me so don't fucking townread this guy for it. He's obviously not scum!RC 2.0 but he's more than competent enough to play this scum game: not one that I think is particularly impressive, I actually think he's kind of obvious scum, but I don't think that matters now. I made a case far earlier based on the way that he was talking and it still holds. There is absolutely no fucking reason his dumb ass should be alive right now and he is only so because scum have been not bussing, besides a throwaway vote by Zexion that she backed off of immediately when she had the chance.

Fuck you. You're not god, you're not AP, you're not Thor, you're not mastin, you're not particularly good yourself at anything other than ATE. You make the thread toxic anytime you look like you might get lynched as either alignment so that people don't want to lynch you, and then call yourself a genius scumplayer? Fuck off. Now stop trying to get me lynched by calling me a good scumplayer and an idiot in the same fucking breath because your points don't make any sense.

And fuck you for your argument that Saix and Xal are "lynching you because out of game". Prove it or shut the fuck up. People can dislike you, it's not the end of the world. People can scumread you, it's not the end of the world. People can even do both, and the world still doesn't fucking end. Your ATE is garbage. And you want to talk about bad wagons? Look at the one that's been on me all day. The core reason of it was Xigbar thinks he's scum but won't tell anyone why, so we should vote him. You've been lurking out the thread, and I saw nothing when I looked to indicate that was due to RL, but magically you have enough time to devote all of this as soon as I'm willing to fight back? No. Fuck off and eat rope, scum.

why wouldn't, like, you know, YOU invest me

I was. You and rox were the only two people I seriously considered targeting. I frankly respect rox more, even if they are just copying a playstyle, so that was first, but you were getting copped second if I managed to live that long. I was vaguely hoping there was another gated investigative to help out and cop you, so that their claim could mean we lynched both you and Xaldin, but with your investigative that takes up most of the town's power claim it's looking more and more like Xaldin is town, so...

Roxas: I don't give a shit what your read is here anymore. Remember when I said FA was scum and you kept insisting Shiro was town? That's this kind of game. If only for KH you owe me this vote.

Remember when out of game stuff should have been against the rules because it was being used against you. Fuck off.

This is where the game is won or lost because I fucking guarantee you that if you don't lynch scum

with

me today you'll never lynch scum.

FTFY.

[IV Vexen]

Btw, typing that post I came to the conclusion. Playing with you is just not fun, Xig. Please try to avoid games I'm in and I'll extend the same courtesy, but AFAICR, it either ends up like this where we both get pissed and yell at each other or I try so hard not to step on your toes avoiding it that I can't even play the game.

I'd be happy to talk to you in a non game setting, but please don't force me to deal with your toxicity in games. Thanks.

[IV Vexen]

Then leane don't play against your win condition.

No I nightkilled you because you didn't make sense as scum with the person I wanted to lynch. On phone so no detailed response till far later.

Paraphrasing for to make sure not to break rules, but basically the posts went.

Xig: I think we could kill Vex.
Xig's Partner: He's townreading both of us, but he smart so I agree.
Xig: It'd be difficult to argue Vex/AnotherPlayer.
Xig's Partner: Yeah.
Xig: Kill Vex.

That doesn't sound to me at all like someone who doesn't respect my play at least a little.

He's lying about how good he thinks I am, and he knows he's not going to get caught. I WILL NOT MOVE MY VOTE FROM XIG. When you guys do get around to lynching me, he eats rope immediately afterwards, and if you guys fail at that I'm sitequitting again..

[IV Vexen]

I have never self voted nor replaced from a game. I believe the former to be playing against your wincon and the latter to be cheating unless you are actually unable to continue playing the game completely, in which case your slot should be modkilled. Unpopular opinions, sure, but I will always stand by them. And no. Fuck you. You were plenty toxic this game when people weren't policy lynching you. You literally made me cry for three hours. Literally. That's not hyperbole, that's not theater, that's not anything but the cold honest truth. I sent Antihero a PM asking him if you were really that heartless, and while I don't think you were intentionally mocking me days after I posted that I would never see the person who introduced me to this game and whose absence from my life caused me to quit doing basically anything for almost a year, that post was still uncalled for. Your anger over me thinking you were thor, someone whom I truly respect and admire for their skill in mafia, led you to mocking me because most of my friends have quit the site. That's the definition of toxic. And I don't want to deal with it anymore.

[IV Vexen]

Like, this doesn't need to be a conversation. We don't have good games together. It's the heart of the matter, and I am as respectfully asking you to not force me to play with you in the future. I don't think that's unreasonable. I don't hate you, but I don't want to play mafia with you and I hope that you can respect me enough to at least avoid playing games with me.

[IV Vexen]

I'm done talking here, because I'm just working myself up.

If any of you have mafia relevant questions, I'll check that thread again later, but I'm done. Lynch me or lynch Xig. In this case, I'm 100% sure he's scum. Lynch me first if you want, but he goes too.

[IV Vexen]

Axel continues to be town by role, so kindly don't vote there.

This is a 1v1. Anything otherwise is just a waste of time right now.

Ax, what of Xig today has been town by play? And what exactly reeks of buddying in my 1638?

[IV Vexen]

Like, to expand on this.

You lynch me or Xigbar, you know the other's alignment. From that, you can extrapolate Axel's alignment based on mine. If I'm town, you know he's sure as fuck town based on my confidence and ability. I would say that Saix would be scum, but his role makes it considerably less likely.

Any other lynch is both not a 50/50 chance at scum and doesn't provide nearly as much information for tomorrow.

[IV Vexen]

I think part of the problem is that you are more or less betting the game on this flip.

I don't particularly like multiple possible outcomes with that.
Best case is he flips scum, you're town and we keep lynching scum and it's sunshine and roses/daisies/etc.
Frankly, I don't think this is beyond your scum play though, and I think it would be dishonest of me to pretend that I don't feel like that option is possible.
There's also the possibility that you're both town and you're completely destroying the gamestate by pushing this if you're wrong. We arguably lose the game if that's the case and we follow through here with what you want.

Take a step back from Vexen being obviously scum to you.
The case you've laid for him being scum makes a lot of sense, but it only resonates on a level that's relevant to you, right? Like, all of your points hinge on you being town and are centered around your experiences with him.
That's hard for people to digest.
I think you're going to struggle to rally people behind that in general and in a deadline situation of you vs Vexen I'm honestly feeling like you get lynched just because of where general sentiment is at.

Axel is a plausible consensus lynch.
If you think he's scum, it's probably the path of least resistance to a scumlynch at this point.

Lynch this after Xig, btw. This is scum, and suggests to me that Xigbar is important scum power.

[IV Vexen]

Phoneposting cause I want to get my last information dump in before the lynch and I'm about to go help someone move, so I'm not sure how long till I'm back.

Axel is the most town by claim role ever. Don't you fucking dare lynch him.

There is no way in hell townxigbar gets this lynch on me through. Look carefully at what he's posted today. We spent a week waiting for a case that a ten year old could have typed in 20 minutes. He has literally not referenced a single piece of it since. He's calling me scum while shouting about how everyone owes him the trust to lynch me and other people are voting him cause they don't like him. This isn't about popularity, but instead of arguing why I'm scum he's doing his absolute best to ensure it is.

Lynch lux immediately after because holy shit is that fucker scumposting, and he has been for a while.

I'm gonna bet the last one is in the people who've been doing fuckall since the claims. Possibly zex, considering xig kept saying we were buddies then trying to lynch me instead.

Go town and see you later if I'm not dead by then.

[IV Vexen]

There is no way in hell townxigbar gets this lynch on me through. Look carefully at what he's posted today. We spent a week waiting for a case that a ten year old could have typed in 20 minutes. He has literally not referenced a single piece of it since. He's calling me scum while shouting about how everyone owes him the trust to lynch me and other people are voting him cause they don't like him. This isn't about popularity, but instead of arguing why I'm scum he's doing his absolute best to ensure it is.

I don't see any scumtells here.

You don't see a scumtell in "He active lurked for no reason through the entire dayphase, dropped a shit case that was supposed to convince everyone and god of my guilt and then immediately abandoned it to try to trade his name for my lynch"? That's... Wow. Just Wow.

[IV Vexen]

Can you like.. actually explain to me why Xigbar is scum for reasons that aren't that he's chainsaw defending me?
Because oddly enough, that's not super compelling to me lol.
Or why Vexen is town.

I'm not going to ignore my reads because you tell me I should for no reason.

Nothing he's done today has had a town perspective behind it at all. He has wanted my lynch to the exclusion of all else, including Zex and Axel, because he had an amazing scumcase against me. Give me a second and I'll go quote it, but it's pretty clear he was lying out of his ass. Til that point.

[IV Vexen]

Spoiler: Not even close to townposting

That's just me trying to bridge the gap for the benefit of people who are uncomfortable with their reads on me and trying to get them to understand why my read transition has happened like it has.
I'll get a case more focused on why they're specifically scum at some point today, probably later rather than sooner because I'd like to take a week off and see what people do to get reads. I don't want to be leading 100% of the time.

Marluxia, you think that Axel is scum? How do you feel about Vexen chainsawing the fuck out of everyone who goes after him? Everyone, that is, except Zexion, who he only asks questions to.

Literally no elaboration on the chainsaw bit here, even when asked, btw.

Also: Zexion is super anti bus. But if someone had a super, super protown role to claim and they'd be able to get out of it easily, plus all 'HEY ZEXION WOULDNT DO THAT' that would come out of it...

And that knee jerk 'you would find scum in a nunnery. zex never says that to me I really don't think. feels like her freaking out because im acumreafinh her buddy.

It's okay. Don't worry about Vexen. He doesn't survive today in any universe.

The only question is do I absolutely break this game tonight or tomorrow.

I'll wait 24 hours. Time is, after all, on my side.

Especially considering that your join date is

after mine

.

I'm 100% no questions on your identity. There's a single answer as to who you are and it's only become more and more obvious as the game goes on.

So, who do I start with Mr. Christmas?

Okay, so he's devoted like 6 posts to "Hehehe I know who you are" when it took almost 0 effort to find out and I wasn't hiding it. Still nothing about why I'm scum though.

Snip
IV Vexen: I scumread. This later.

Snip

That leaves three people, all of whom I individually scumread to various extents, and all of whom have weird as fuck associations with each other. Not original trilogy associations like I had before where I was like gradually cutting people out and sure this is bad this could be scum, there's some serious dirt here.

Zexion, I do not have your support on a Vexen lynch, correct?

Hey.

I'm here for a bit if you want to chat.

I don't really have the time to put together a coherent case for Vexen scum either today or tomorrow, so that leaves Tuesday.

"I have time for anything except arguing my top scumread."

I'm having a great deal of trouble actually putting my thoughts into words here because I'm fucking tired and I have to get up in 5 hours
It's really dumb that I basically solved this game but I just have never been in a situation where I had the time and energy to do this. Just too much going on in my life.
I can be super convincing when I have that but now I'm just sorta useless and I can't do much about it.

Making a bad case on Vexen is worse than no case at this juncture. He's still flipping scum and I implore Demyx and Saix, both of whom have expressed general support for the wagon, to vote there.
Saix is flipping town and unless we pull this together here it's a loss.

Sorry that I was somewhat bad yesterday but it's really hard to lynch scum consistently on D1. I still believe that, besides Axel who we unvoted for role reasons, my play was generally good. Larxene absent unfortunately, and I did ask for an extension that we didn't get so we ended up deadline lynching and absent slot, which is super unfortunate but. The long deadline does that to games.

Just please do me the favour of either flat out trusting me on Vexen or withholding your judgement and vote until Tuesday.

Because I'm trying to Lynch confscum

At this point I'm just waiting till tomorrow and hardclaiming a guilty on him first thing if I'm alive.

If not, your faults for not lynching him today.

Vexen was pushing Saix? so there you go.

Also, now there's also Vexion, but I think she's already won the game for scum since town is being really dumb.

We share 2/3 of our scumreads. Why don't you get past the fact that you feel the urge to policy lynch me and instead direct your energy at lynching Vexscum?

Yes, no case. Mafia has deprived me of enough sleep. Bed. I have the vast majority of my day free tomorrow.

For the first time on Day 2 I have the night properly free to spend on this.

Case tonight.

Nope no case coming. No energy for mafia I guess.

I am actually really sorry. I understand that people have high expectations of me. I just can't be who I want to be right now.

I also have a commute which can prevent me from dying as one of my abilities.
So.

Want that infinite bulletproof yet? vote Vexen.

Oh man did you get lucky that this happened during the intersection of TIFF, second week of classes, and a bunch of personal drama.

Guys for the love of annie just lynch this scum ass son of a bitch please.

VOTE: xigbar

1 you are all pretty shit
2 it's still zex vexen Axel but feel free to Lynch lex for being as bad as he is

Man how do TTH's games always end up being so shitty for me to play

VOTE: Vexen

Want to talk about claims matching the play?

Pedit: Why would my claim make any difference in the matter?

Of course it would make a difference. But if you're the one stuck with the ninja and/or strongman which you can't exactly claim for towncred, well, unfortunate.

12 Larxene: Mass tracker counter, bla
5 Lexaeus: Strongman
+1

Mehhhhhhh
Guess there doesn't like, HAVE to be a strongman.

Luxord, if you vote Larxene I'll swing my weight to make that lynch happen over yours.

It's sort of funny that I just had a complete panic attack over my inability to figure out who the strongman on the scumteam was and wanted to change all the wagons for it, lol.

(between boldly lying about not having seen the role and just the format of the question, feels bad. As for an answer, if scum don't have a strongman my role is literally game breaking)

My how the time does fly.

Luxord's claim is... interesting. I also believe it, though I disagree that it doesn't make sense as scum. While it isn't an explicitly scummy role, it seems to me like it's got decent benefit either way.

And Xigbar, I've gotta ask...
What made you think there was a Strongman in the first place? It's not really a role I see super often... Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen it in ANY of my games on-site.

This slot is not only scum it's probably the strongman.

in fact there is a person on this site who may or may not be me who has personally been a strongman in two separate games with them.

I have been saying there has been a strongman since early D1 because it was mentioned in my role PM. Further, I was deliberately hunting off flavours to try to find the aforementioned strongman.
I went through one phase where I was like meh maybe TTH is trolling me but I doubted it even then and with all the claims there is obviously a fucking strongman.

Further: I have an alternate ability that I can use if I don't block the shots on me. I don't want to out it because it loses a lot of its value but my alternative role is in fact investigative and insanely helpful in this setup for tracking down fakeclaims. I guarantee you that if you lynch me and see my flip you will correctly realize that you are all fucking awful for voting me because my role likely constitutes a huge share of our power budget.

Now: let's talk about Vexen's claim. He claims that he's a protective that if it targets the same target twice it becomes an investigative. That makes little to no fucking sense.
You use protectives on people that you want to stay alive. You use investigatives on people that you think are scum. It's entirely working at cross purposes and it's a role that TTH would never design for that reason.
Not to mention that he has been an obvious scumfuck since like early day 1.

He clearly has the time to defend himself, but his case is still absent. Because it's not real and he's been lying about it.

Vexen has implied that I was worried about eating the nightkill: yes I was because at the level of control and townread I had on day 1 I'd obviously be strongmanned if I'm killed at all. Protectives would always be on me. I believe I also specifically requested at some point that protectives not target me but I'm not going through my ISO again to find it. Vexen also immediately after claiming a role that's at a power level of non-consecutive alignment cop said that he wouldn't die tonight. Why would he randomly not die tonight if he's on the kill list. Like it's super fucking obviously scum just making an excuse for this shit.

I am currentely at L-2 because two players, Saix and Xaldin, are voting me for entirely outside of game reasons. I personally think that should be against the rules and I have made as much clear, but I feel I have been objectively obvious town. The one, single thing that I can't adequately fake in my scumgame is the paranoid shuffling of votes near the EoD: and this isn't the first time I've said that. I've said it to multiple people in this game even. I shuffled my votes off of Luxord and Axel because I was looking for a claim that seemed made up because it probably coincided with the strongman and I wanted the strongman dead so I'd have free reign to break the game without threat of nightkill: Lux and Axel's were both confirmable and probably did not overlap with the strongman, although I will point out that Axel's theoretically could if the strongman flavour was just like Eternal Flames or something.

I don't have to claim anything here, and if I did have to fakeclaim I wouldn't have picked a fakeclaim that steps on Larxene's toes with the asceticness or like everyone's toes with the being nightkill immune that's essentially a parallell role to Roxas. It happens that there's a shit ton of overlap in the mechanics in this game, which is sort of common for a TTH game, but I have no reason to fakeclaim something like this as scum.

I have been saying Vexen is scum. If I had had more time I would have been able to make a case that would just break this game apart but now I just don't.

Remember that
1) Vexen made comparisons to Thor accusing me of being egotistical because I thought Vexion was pocketing me. While he claimed to not know who I was. That makes absolutely no sense: pocketing usually has nothing to do with a players level of competence or expertise, it has to do with outside of game relations. However if he's scum who was told who I was by his partner, it makes a lot of sense that he'd accuse me of being egotistical via proxy because that's how he thinks of me and he didn't properly cut bit of information that out of how he treated my slot. It's a clear slip of information that he claimed not to have. Also, the point at which he has the sudden dawning realization of my identity makes little to no fucking sense: it's not hard to figure out who I am based on style and the way I was treated in thread and he's played with me recently. Him suddenly figuring out my identity because I got pissy about him not figuring out my identity makes little to no sense and his realization itself feels so fucking fake, right down to the OMG INVEST HIM!!!. Wait, if you're the investigative, why wouldn't, like, you know, YOU invest me? Keep me alive if I'm town, sort me if I'm scum. But obviously he wasn't planning to make this claim at the time.

This describes 0 people. Why are you lying?

And how the fuck does he know what my relationships with people who exist are? I could just be wrong, but

why does he think that I'm describing someone nonexistent if he DOESN'T KNOW WHO I FUCKING AM.

2) Look at how Vexen reacts to Axel being voted. He absolutely freaks out at Saix about how bad the vote is . He even preemptively, while claiming to have a null read on Axel, makes excuses for not voting . He's also way, way too fucking concerned with me and Zexion knowing each other: it's pretty obvious based on the way that we're talking that we know each other and there's no real reason to have a doubt about that. But if you're scum who is trying to pretend to be town and pretend you don't know who we are it's understandable that you'd overcommit and go that angle because you weren't properly thinking through your town thought process. And look at this chainsaw.

Convince me Axel's scum, cause your 144 just seems like a big ball of nulltells on Axel and hypocrisy from you, and I'm not seeing a more cohesive case from you.

As far as Axel's alignment goes, I haven't the foggiest. That's pretty much the reason I asked you why you were voting him in 306, which I'd still like you to respond to, btw. I just feel that your overconfidence, hypocrisy, and dismissal of literally every other player you have to read is probably scum. I'm adding the tu quoque, loaded question, and fact you ignored me until I suspected you to the list of reasons your role pm is red as well, btw.

3) he's just generally scum. Luxord, if it were me being that confident you wouldn't townread me so don't fucking townread this guy for it. He's obviously not scum!RC 2.0 but he's more than competent enough to play this scum game: not one that I think is particularly impressive, I actually think he's kind of obvious scum, but I don't think that matters now. I made a case far earlier based on the way that he was talking and it still holds. There is absolutely no fucking reason his dumb ass should be alive right now and he is only so because scum have been not bussing, besides a throwaway vote by Zexion that she backed off of immediately when she had the chance.

Blatantly lying about my telling him that worrying about being the strongman kill on N1 is suspect (by comparing him to Thor) and criticizing both wagons on replace in when neither had so much as a single reason behind them.

Vexen [1] - Xigbar

Marluxia: get your ass back over here.
Roxas: I don't give a shit what your read is here anymore. Remember when I said FA was scum and you kept insisting Shiro was town? That's this kind of game. If only for KH you owe me this vote.
Luxord: plug your nose and fucking do it and worry about if I'm scum bussing after.
Saix/Xaldin: I have been defending both of you and both of you are vote parking me out of sheer salt. Don't fucking be like that.
Xemnas: Just vote with me I have no idea who you are but this flips scum 100%

That's more than 6 votes.

This is where the game is won or lost because I fucking guarantee you that if you don't lynch scum with me today you'll never lynch scum. You'll get caught up on some shit Demyx wagon, then lynch the people who were vote parking me, and you'll drown in your general lack of competence at this game as a group. Me taking some time off is not at all AI, nor is it relevant to the strength of my reads: if anything the fact that I came back and did a complete reset and still had Vexen as 100% scum is a testament to the strength of that read. If he flips town Saix can fucking vig me and I will not block the kill.

Look at how awkward Vexen was in terms of dealing with the personal stuff between me and Zexion. Look at his awful OMGUS. Look at Zexion freaking out and saying that I'd find scum in a nunnery with that kind of case on Vexen (which she would NEVER have said to me as town.) Look at Zexion's comment about how she is playing this game with a specific playstyle that she no longer likes: I cannot go into any more detail on that but that is literally a scumclaim in the truest word and it happened because at the start of the day all 3 scum were caught and they thought the game was just going to end.

I don't have a clue who you are Saix and I don't care. I talked to the mods about this recently because I've been fed up with dealing with this crap and was told that this is in fact outside of game influences and playing against your win condition. You have no credible ground to stand ton claiming that you have an actual scumread on me with how open you've been about being a dick and voting for me because you don't like me. If you have an issue with me that prevents you from playing this game to your win condition then you can fucking leave. If you want to play the actual game then I am totally fine with that too. But what you're doing not is not okay in the spirit or word of site rules and I look forward to reporting you after game if you continue to play against your win condition.

Well, I get that.

But this is a space where I think one would be justified given how hard lynching Vexen is despite how objectively scummy he is.

Yes, lynching a claimed doc is hard. And objectively scummy implies you have a reason behind scumreading me, which seems to be entirely absent.

I could post more, but it's literally everything on page two of his ISO. He spent all day talking about how he was going to win and get me lynched because he had sweeping reasons to get me lynched, but even when he had the time the last few days, he doesn't share a single one. He instead argues against his own lynch and insults people who don't go along with him. He outright admitted he was making this "more toxic than normal" because he hadn't put enough time in. Tell me a single fucking town post out of the whole lot. I dare you to try and find one. You won't, because it simply isn't there.

And yet, his entire reason to lynch me is that he's obvtown and you should all sheep him. And if you notice, it's incredibly important to him that my lynch go through today. Because if it doesn't his team won't ever get to lynch me. They'll be forced to shoot me. Xigbar IS going down. The only question is whether he's lynched today or tomorrow.

Personally I don't sheep people who are provably lying about having reasons to vote someone. But that's on you.

[IV Vexen]

1736 stands as my last will.

Lux will most certainly vote me as soon as he feels he can get away with it, because to him his scumbuddy needs to get through this 1v1 to survive til tomorrow, and I'm pretty much the only one who would call him out on it. It's okay though, because you guys can lynch Xig and then him and be in a pretty damn good position.

I do think Zex is a likely third, but that read is orders of magnitude weaker than my others.

[IV Vexen]

@Vexen you claimed doc?? Where?

Not outright doc, but it's functionally my role. Link momentarily, but I roleblock everyone who targets my target, including NK's. If I target them twice I cop them.

[IV Vexen]

Alright. Time for the reveal.

I'm both a protective role, and an investigative. I'm probably not going to die tonight, so if there's another protective they shouldn't target me tonight, but I'm almost certainly biting the bullet tomorrow night.

Every night I target someone, and all actions taken against that target fail. If I target someone for the second night in a row, I'm told that person's alignment.

Now you know why I had literally 0 doubts I wasn't getting lynched today.

My big theory post at Xemnas is still relevant too, but should be delayed due to the obvscum lynch tomorrow.

[IV Vexen]

Xemnas (Replaced once)- IC
Xigbar- Informed Infinite Commuter/ Most of the power remaining in town role that he refused to elaborate on and tacked on 6 pages later.
Xaldin- Tracker w/ 4 targets N1, 3 N2, etc.
Vexen (Replaced once)- ^
Lexaeus- Protective of somekind with an additional bit of role
Zexion- Unclaimed
Saïx- Bomb/1 shot vig, either but not both
Axel- Stopped N1 made everyone hated D2, proven
Demyx (Replaced once)- Softed investigative, specifically tracker, which is worth considering
Luxord (Replaced two times)- Neighborhood that makes people hated
Marluxia- unclaimed
Larxene (Replaced once)- Flipped investigative immune Roleblocker
Roxas- Proven roleblocker, claimed infinite shot BP.

There, from memory. Not gonna find links to individual claims, but Demy's soft was immediately after Xal's claim. He asked if him being a tracker would change my desire to get results before lynching Xal, and I berated him over the soft.

[IV Vexen]

@Vexen you claimed doc?? Where?

Not outright doc, but it's functionally my role. Link momentarily, but I roleblock everyone who targets my target, including NK's. If I target them twice I cop them.

Why do you think Town would have two roleblockers?

Because there's a flipped town roleblocker.

Regardless of which one of me/Xig is town there's two roleblockers. His is reflexive, mine is everyone else who targets a player. Anyway you slice it, there's a lot of town power here which probably means a lot of scum power.

[IV Vexen]

I don't think it should if you scumread my slot regardless if I claimed Cop/IC you should vote my slot.

I'm a neighborzier each day I pick someone to invite to a game that we play in the neighborhood the winner will be loved the next day while the loser is hated.

[IV Vexen]

Didn't specify whom he was targeting, but this was D1, iirc.

[IV Vexen]

Roxas is doublevoter, not roleblocker. Sorry, typod there.

[IV Vexen]

Oh, btw, clarified this with anti pretty much immediately after I replaced in. If someone with a role like mine were to target someone who is investigation immune, only the cop function would fail. The two actions resolve separately.

[IV Vexen]

@Saix How would a doctor interact with your Bomb? The wiki says to ask the mod.

@Vexen -- Hypothetically, assume day ended this second: Would you be on the IC or another player with all the protectives that are claimed?

His bomb is only for NKs.

I'd target one of you, Xem, Rox. I really want a cop result on Rox, because he's perfectly emulating or is one of the people who I believe can completely outplay me as scum. I would be using an rng pattern to choose between the three to disincentivise scum killing either you or Xem.

[IV Vexen]

I asked a fruit vendor or other relatively useless targetting role to confirm Saix not killing power when targeted, btw, because he clarified to bomb from PGO, and I cannot see town PGO playing the way he has.

[IV Vexen]

Be back in 30 but with all the claims mass claim is hella in order at this point.

Not today. Too little time to discuss and reason it out.

Not tomorrow either, unless we lynch Xig today, because it won't effect the correct decision of lynch Xig, and just gives scum a chance to play around anything town that comes out.

But yeah. Full massclaim, as described in my big theory post to Xemnas earlier today is in the near future.

[IV Vexen]

I'm saying he's already answered. He kills anyone who attempts to kill him. The kill still succeeds.

[IV Vexen]

Yeah, but claiming PGO then switching to Bomb is most certainly something scum PGO would do, and I'm not discounting that option given the amount of power town has.

If a fruit vendor dies tonight, Saix is confscum.

[IV Vexen]

If someone targets me at night, they will be killed automatically.
I can kill someone at night, but if I choose to do so, I will forfeit the first ability.
So, in effect, I have only one functional power but been given the option to choose out of the two.

Lynching is the only likely way I will be shown the door, unless the scum can afford to reduce by 1. I can go to the endgame if people believe me.

*If someone targets me at night for a nightkill

[IV Vexen]

If a fruit vendor dies tonight, Saix is confscum. If he's conftown, that won't happen. If there is a fruit vendor and they DON'T die, that's good evidence for Saix town that doesn't rely on your role or you being town.

It's just correct play. If you are a fruit vendor or similarly useless night action, target Saix.

[IV Vexen]

There are multiple unclaimed roles, and advising them to correct play is still a good idea for me, given there's a good chance I'm about to become conftown.

Your assertion that Saix is confirmed town means very little without your flip. Mostly that I shouldn't lynch Saix without additional evidence, which I knew already.

Confirming yourself via role is never useless, it merely requires a varying level of skill. I'm really good at that specific part of mafia, so I approach the game with that in mind.

I seriously doubt scum will take the bomb kill from Saix in order to get rid of him. Maybe Xig, given he's the obvious lynch tomorrow, but he strikes me as egotistical where he'll try his best to duck the lynch because he thinks its possible. The sad thing is, I'm not entirely sure he's wrong, given Xemnas.

[IV Vexen]

And as I say this I am telling you I am not targeting him.

I am targeting someone else instead so if scum kill Saix they don't kill me too.

If this is a hider claim or a bodyguard claim, say so immediately.

[IV Vexen]

If this is a hider claim or a bodyguard claim, say so immediately.

Seriously, if you have either of these roles, claim now.

[IV Vexen]

Fuck. Lex might be scum, and I'm not sure what that means.

[IV Vexen]

Vexen, re-read the last page.

Saix is not Quite a PGO, he's a Bomb, and it is lost upon activation of the vig shot.

Also I have a proposal.
I'm a protective role as well, though my secondary function is not investigative, which is why I wanted to know if Xemnas could survive a kill attempt. I was going to use that information to decide whether to protect Xemnas or Saix.

The idea was to protect Saix if Xemnas said he could protect himself, so that when/if Scum tried to kill him, his reflexive kill would trigger but he'd still be alive and his role confirmed.
Otherwise, protect Xemnas for obvious reasons.

HOWEVER, having two protectives provides a unique opportunity.
We protect each other, and become immortal. We're then guaranteed to survive to LyLo. If we can lynch even a single scum, we're guaranteed a win.

There's no downside that I can see here.

And as I say this I am telling you I am not targeting him.

I am targeting someone else instead so if scum kill Saix they don't kill me too.

This. These suggest to me entirely different roles.

Like, if there's a risk to Lex protecting someone then killing him, I don't see why he makes the previous post. If there isn't, there's no reason for the latter.

[IV Vexen]

The first says hard protective, but not JK. The second says bodyguard. And those are not roles that would be mistaken for each other. Which suggests to me that Lex was trying to set up a fakeclaim and didn't see this, but the only reason he needs to do that is if both me and Xig are town, which I really don't want to have to consider.

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