The New Newbie Game Setup

[RadiantCowbells]

Setup 4 id horrible for town

[RadiantCowbells]

Think scum and town roleblocker should be concurrent, as should roleblockers and jailkeepers.

[RadiantCowbells]

I've thought about it long enough and I'm officially against the changes.

Scum winrates will skyrocket.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am intentionally hanging back right now, but I do value your input.

You would prefer to keep the setup the same? What changes would you propose? What is the scum winrate over the past ~20 completed games? You think this setup would make that worse? Why?

I'm glad for feedback, but make it constructive.

I mean I was never asked for feedback about this. You clearly have something that you want to put forward so go ahead and go with it. I think town winrates will fall hard.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that overall

1) The setups are more scum favoured than the old ones. There are some worse than JK/BP/RB which is the current worst one, there are scum better, but overall I would say it's harder. I think you badly overestimate the power of a RB in a setup where a JK or a Doc exists. There's going to be virtually no info obtained. There's a reason that JK/BP is so much worse than just JK; yes roleblocker, but also now you don't know dick about whether your jailkeeping action actually prevented anything. That's huge.

2) Daytalk is big. Very big. Yes, it also increases retention of scum newbies: but at the same time I also think losing 80% of games hurts retention of town newbies
The games where I remember where newbies stuck around and became -ms- players were games that were super well played by one side or ones that their side won.
Games that scum just won because it was hard for town to deduce anything or get shit done didn't keep a lot of players.

3) Newbies are currently balanced around Mafia not having fakeclaims. In games with competent ICs it's extremely hard to get a fakeclaim to stick.
Only in 2/6 of games can fakeclaims be made and only 1/6 do any individual ones work. As a result, lynching PR claims early is a fucking terrible decision.
As soon as scum have viable fakeclaims this goes out the window: first scum wagoned can easily just claim PR and not be lynched.
So either lynching scum is going to become a fuckton harder on D1 or PRs are going to start getting lynched more, or both.
This is the #1 point to me and I think it alone represents like a 10-15% increase in scum winrate.

I would say that this proposal is at the moment so broken that I can't even just give constructive feedback: I'd rather stick with what we have.

daytalk helps retention and part of the newbie queue is getting people used to site norms. daytalk is very common outside of the newbie queue and it is more fun. I heard somewhere that giving scum daytalk is like adding an extra member to the scumteam. It's not a problem you just have to balance accordingly, giving town more power to counteract it.

This is both less town power and setups that give scum a lot more options.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like right now scum claims PR and they trade 1 for 1 with the PR. Sucks for the PR but still hurts scum.
You make that change and all of a sudden scum can claim PR D1 and avoid the lynch, then go on to get a different PR lynched later in the game. That's huge.
There's a reason that in multisets on EM the individual setups are pretty fucking easy for town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh: and scum post change also have a shitload more information than they used to. They have their PR and they have a lot more information about the setup than town does.
There's definitely more overall -variety- in town to counteract that, but the difference in information between town and scum is far higher.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you say that you're not looking for an entirely new setup or anything but you never gave me a chance to give feedback while this was in design.
So now you're coming out with it and telling me to be 'more constructive' when I'm seeing a finished work that I think is broken in several ways.
Which I think is kind of rude and not something that you should be doing.

[RadiantCowbells]

If the success of this change is contingent on spiking interest, then it's not sustainable.

I don't think SEs or ICs should be flaking from newbie games.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's mostly repeat customers.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't agree that that's quite reasonable.
I have played in 56? completed newbie games on site. I've been prodded every once in a while but I believe I only replaced out of one and that was by force. I've replaced into at least half of those.
If shit really goes down for me and I need to be replaced from a game as an SE I should not be penalized because things got really bad for me at a discrete time.
Penalize the people doing it repeatedly. Not the people who have a single bad period.

[RadiantCowbells]

Few ICs and SEs really understand how Matrix6 works even now. Open up the amount of setups and you have even more experienced players not knowing what they're doing.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't think that the people that play newbies are unrepresentative of the people who play mafia in general.

[RadiantCowbells]

If mafia are desired to have day talk then town need to be stronger to deal with it

[RadiantCowbells]

I think we should stop trying to make 'neat' setups with the 3d3 and m6 stuff and just pick the setups that work and randomize one of them.

[RadiantCowbells]

like tracker/doc/goon works
jailkeeper/goon/goon works
cop/goon/goon works
cop/doc/rb/goon works

the problematic ones are the bulletproof ones (both wr wise and oh no bulletproof claim strat wise), so let's just replace those with something else that works better?

[RadiantCowbells]

The implication is that newbie scum are significantly less likely to get lynched than experienced scum and I don't know how true that is.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think I need to go though by like 50 completed newbies and test rates of slots being lynched.

[RadiantCowbells]

That is true.