Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[Mulch]

I voted him because he said that a bad vote was a serious vote without me realizing he was joking

[Alchemist21]

VOTE: gamenburger

@grapes

- why did you have my predecessor as scum early game?

Gonna need reasons here too.

[Mulch]

VOTE: gamenburger

@grapes

- why did you have my predecessor as scum early game?

Gonna need reasons here too.

I think he accepted grapes as town too easily with “your feeding scum”

[Mulch]

There are some other things I want to comment on but I’ll hold off until I get on a computer to make them organized .

[Chip Butty]

I forgot to do this:

UNVOTE: UnabombaH

[Assemblerotws]

Maybe I’m dumb but can someone explain 27 to me lol

Hello, Mulch.
Comm and I were joking about a game we played together where I, as scum, tried to crumb to some of the other scum through judicious use of capitalization, got exposed by my buddy in what was, due to the mechanics of this particular game, the dumbest bus I have ever seen, tried to claim PGO on my buddy's advice in order to see if we could identify the real PGO from the reactions, and then got quicklynched by CommKnight (who happened to be the actual PGO).

[Mulch]

Got it, ty. Alright

[Realeo]

Realeo what are you current reads?

I'm starting to worry that I am townreading people too quickly and not having enough scumread.

I am comfy with Alchemist and grapes.

I am not comfy with ChipButty, IceGuy, and Luca, but it's not exactly "I'm not comfortable with you so you're my scumread" but more to "I'm not comfortable with you so you are under my radar."

[Mulch]

Spoiler: Catch Up

I really like 17 from Assemble. Assemble is bad scum and bad scum are typically afraid to do self meta, so I think this points to them in the town direction. Also not sure how enthusiastic and into the game they would be early as scum (see fferlyt's newbie game with me).

I dislike Riddleton (who it turns out would be Duckworth)'s 36 because I feel like this is something that is a relatively safe and shallow thing to notice; if you go in depth you can sorta follow all of Grape's townreads and how they get to it so while unsubstatiated townreads are usually a problem it dosen't really apply to Grapes here. Which means that Duck could be saying it just to say it.

I think it's weird that I"m somehow already some sort of scumlean in Grape's readlist in 38?

@grapes?

Besides the readlist not a bad post

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug*

@Realeo

Really disagree with Alch's 51, it was a "valid" OMGUS and defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Unfortuantely can't scumread Alch for it because too many people nowadays have misguided perceptions about this stuff.

Dislike 72 from Icy- Same reason as Riddelton. And I don't get his Alch or Realeo townreads at all, so unless I get a pretty good mindset explanation I think those are decently scummy as well.

@Ice

And again 75 from Chip just completely goes against my current reads right now. Dunno. I've been burned with scumreading over disagreements in the past but how can you think Realeo and Ice is towny?

What do y'all mean in 92, what human error? I'm not following but then again I'm not particularly smart

At 96 I'm probably confident enough at this point to

VOTE: Iceguy

It's not that this is an invalid point that he's pushing, it's that he's pushing a point valid in theory that's not really applicable in practice.

Feels like you want to be 'seen' as being super active. Also makes the game a bit messy to read imo

This portion of Luca's post is really reachy to me.

At least now we can get a little into Iceguy's townread mindset:

Alchemist is town because he seems to be right and earnest about grapes' behavior.

I mean...he's been asking...questions. Not really particualrly towny questions (ones that I marked down as towny to me). I think this could be an example of scum that's trying to force reads and pocket. Not sure.

111 is really bad, I think the logic about Grape being more active here is a stretch and I can't really try and figure how they would think this would be good and solid reasoning to use, and I also dislike their presumption of grape town throughout their posts. Perhaps scum that spewed Grapes town?

And yet again I dislike Ice's post in 122, it's just another easily fakeable post and a very good excuse to unvote after Grape's had been looking more and more town.

Mindmelding with most of Alch's 125, Grape's end was really good especially where they noticied the perspective of Grape's town. While scum might not mind the townread.

In post 98, IceGuy wrote:
You said you want to retract your town lean, that implies you think he's scum now.


Seems pretty ridiculous reasoning to me; feels like he's trying to provoke a scum read that wasn't there.

What does this mean? "Provoke a scum read"

@Lucas

And that's about it I think.

I guess a really rough readslist (it's so early, although it is an open game) would be:

Mulch/Assemble/Grapes
Alch
Comm/ (maybe Chip?)
Iron/Duck/Una
Realeo/Luca
Game
Ice

[Mulch]

Woops forgot votes couden't be in spoilers

VOTE: IceGuy

[Realeo]

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug* @Realeo

Are you expecting me to respond? I don't see questions?

[UnaBombaH]

I guess a really rough readslist (it's so early, although it is an open game) would be:

Mulch/Assemble/Grapes
Alch
Comm/ (maybe Chip?)
Iron/Duck/Una
Realeo/Luca
Game
Ice

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

Can you explain why it being an open game affects how early reads can form?

[Mulch]

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug* @Realeo

Are you expecting me to respond? I don't see questions?

Yeah, maybe just explain what's goin' through your brain there if you don't mind

[Mulch]

Can you explain why it being an open game affects how early reads can form?

Actually, an open game shoulden't really effect how reads can form. But because of the slow pace, I feel some pressure to generate reads earlier than I might not have otherwise. Maybe in a Mini Normal I wait a couple more hundred posts, but I don't want to like have everything I say outdated relative to the pace

[Luca Blight]

@Grapes: sorry if I've missed this in your gargantuan posts, but can you please link us to a game where you were town and played in a similar style?

@Luca: Speaking of easy, how come you have accepted Grapes's account of his style without asking him what I have just asked him?

Because a) I've seen it as a playstyle for others, so I'm aware this is how some people play and b) His explanation seemed genuine enough in post 41 and in reply to IceGuy in 116, and I like other things such as his consistent activity, as well as his interaction with Realeo in posts 57 and 116 and c) because I find asking for self-meta to be kinda pointless - if he's so aware of his own meta then it's devalued anyway, and if he's scum then again, why would willingly do Town's work for him? I'm not one to willingly supply self-meta myself regardless of alignment, so it would be a bit hypocritical of me to ask such a question.

I really don't like Iceguy's start, his vote for Grapes or his subsequent unvote.

So basically, you've decided that you want to start a wagon on me, and then tried to find reasons for it.

Uh, no. I've seen you coasting on the back of Grapes the whole game so far and have done little else.

Are you really just going to dismiss my entire post like that?

Now you have unvoted Grapes, who is your biggest scum read?

I don't see the case Luca's making about Ice. I see it as Town who's not looking to confbias and tunnel, and him stating what's making him less confident in the read seems like it's a more honest vote than one that's pushing an agenda.

Considering he has done nothing else in this game though, wouldn't you agree it seems like he's trying to 'look useful without being so' which is exactly what he actually sumread Grapes for in the first place?

[Luca Blight]

Realeo what are you current reads?

I'm starting to worry that I am townreading people too quickly and not having enough scumread.

I am comfy with Alchemist and grapes.

I am not comfy with ChipButty, IceGuy, and Luca, but it's not exactly "I'm not comfortable with you so you're my scumread" but more to "I'm not comfortable with you so you are under my radar."

Why are you 'comfy' with Alch, and why aren't you 'comfy' with ChipButty and I?

And is that to say that you townread Grapes and Alch?

Spoiler: Catch Up

I really like 17 from Assemble. Assemble is bad scum and bad scum are typically afraid to do self meta, so I think this points to them in the town direction. Also not sure how enthusiastic and into the game they would be early as scum (see fferlyt's newbie game with me).

I dislike Riddleton (who it turns out would be Duckworth)'s 36 because I feel like this is something that is a relatively safe and shallow thing to notice; if you go in depth you can sorta follow all of Grape's townreads and how they get to it so while unsubstatiated townreads are usually a problem it dosen't really apply to Grapes here. Which means that Duck could be saying it just to say it.

I think it's weird that I"m somehow already some sort of scumlean in Grape's readlist in 38?

@grapes?

Besides the readlist not a bad post

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug*

@Realeo

Really disagree with Alch's 51, it was a "valid" OMGUS and defensiveness isn't a scumtell. Unfortuantely can't scumread Alch for it because too many people nowadays have misguided perceptions about this stuff.

Dislike 72 from Icy- Same reason as Riddelton. And I don't get his Alch or Realeo townreads at all, so unless I get a pretty good mindset explanation I think those are decently scummy as well.

@Ice

And again 75 from Chip just completely goes against my current reads right now. Dunno. I've been burned with scumreading over disagreements in the past but how can you think Realeo and Ice is towny?

What do y'all mean in 92, what human error? I'm not following but then again I'm not particularly smart

At 96 I'm probably confident enough at this point to

VOTE: Iceguy

It's not that this is an invalid point that he's pushing, it's that he's pushing a point valid in theory that's not really applicable in practice.

Feels like you want to be 'seen' as being super active. Also makes the game a bit messy to read imo

This portion of Luca's post is really reachy to me.

At least now we can get a little into Iceguy's townread mindset:

Alchemist is town because he seems to be right and earnest about grapes' behavior.

I mean...he's been asking...questions. Not really particualrly towny questions (ones that I marked down as towny to me). I think this could be an example of scum that's trying to force reads and pocket. Not sure.

111 is really bad, I think the logic about Grape being more active here is a stretch and I can't really try and figure how they would think this would be good and solid reasoning to use, and I also dislike their presumption of grape town throughout their posts. Perhaps scum that spewed Grapes town?

And yet again I dislike Ice's post in 122, it's just another easily fakeable post and a very good excuse to unvote after Grape's had been looking more and more town.

Mindmelding with most of Alch's 125, Grape's end was really good especially where they noticied the perspective of Grape's town. While scum might not mind the townread.

In post 98, IceGuy wrote:
You said you want to retract your town lean, that implies you think he's scum now.


Seems pretty ridiculous reasoning to me; feels like he's trying to provoke a scum read that wasn't there.

What does this mean? "Provoke a scum read"

@Lucas

And that's about it I think.

I guess a really rough readslist (it's so early, although it is an open game) would be:

Mulch/Assemble/Grapes
Alch
Comm/ (maybe Chip?)
Iron/Duck/Una
Realeo/Luca
Game
Ice

Regarding the 'provoke a scumread' - I'm trying to understand the thought-process behind IceGuy's comment in 98.

This isn't necessarily scummy in itself as 'provoking' reads is something done by Town as well, but it's the reasoning behind it that caught me as a bit strange.

[CommKnight]

At least Mulch is reducing his posts to about 2 per session roughly instead of a full page of one-liners and causing 5+ fastposts for anyone trying to actually post content.

I planned to read fully up tonight so I could comment on something but I really don't have enough time to get through Mulch's spoiler tonight. Literally gotta be up in just over 5 hours and then when I'm at school I can get this done up tomorrow morning.

But I agree with Realeo. I too am finding I'm TR'ing people a bit too quickly. Nothing solid yet, but getting more TR's than FOS's. Maybe that's a good thing and this might be one of those games I nail scum mostly on D1 again. But I'll second guess myself like I always do.

Without trying to stay up too late, again, I'll say that 4 people sit currently in my TL's with only two on the scummy side of things.

[Chip Butty]

@Luca: It's not asking for sel-meta per se. It just asking for verification that he jas played like this as town before.

[Alchemist21]

Considering he has done nothing else in this game though, wouldn't you agree it seems like he's trying to 'look useful without being so' which is exactly what he actually sumread Grapes for in the first place?

Not really. He saw an issue with grapes (and wasn't the only one) and acted on it. He's showing thoughts in a clear, concise manner that's making it possible for others to get a read on him, which is useful.

[Luca Blight]

Considering he has done nothing else in this game though, wouldn't you agree it seems like he's trying to 'look useful without being so' which is exactly what he actually sumread Grapes for in the first place?

Not really. He saw an issue with grapes (and wasn't the only one) and acted on it. He's showing thoughts in a clear, concise manner that's making it possible for others to get a read on him, which is useful.

So does this mean you are townreading IceGuy?

And since you unvoted Grapes, do you have any scumreads?

[Realeo]

It's a tiny bit weird that Realeo retracted a town lean just because nobody else agreed with him in 48, but I don't know if it's allignment indicative? Maybe a little scummy because I don't see why he would do that *shrug* @Realeo

Are you expecting me to respond? I don't see questions?

Yeah, maybe just explain what's goin' through your brain there if you don't mind

Do you agree that townlean and scumlean is a spectrum?

Imagine that 0 is confscum and 1 is conftown and 0.5 is null.

Now, in an ideal world, we would be able to express our read in a numeric system to express ourself in a great detail, right?

The issue is,we can't. This numeric system is too subjective. What is a 0.5, what is a 0.3?

So we process and express our read in a form of categorical bins. "Scum", "Scum lean", "Null scum", "Null town", "Town lean", "Town" and so on. Some people split this bins in different way.

Now obviously, this bins are still subjective. "How towny is the difference of null town and town lean?" but at least it's more descriptive than 0.5. This binning system can be useful, but when the difference is not cut through, it's kinda confusing where do you put your read on which bin.

When it comes to CK, I don't know which bin should I put my read at.

My philosophy of mafia is mafia is not just a game of pressing your agenda. Mafia is a game of feedback. You're not a genius. You should push your message aggressively, but you should listen to what people say. So I look for opinion.

If the majority says "It's towny", then I would put it in a better bin. If the majority says no, then I put it in a worse bin. Why? Well, wisdom of the crowd. Wisdom of the crowd gives you a good approximate. If the crowd is split like 60/40, you can't really take the crowd's opinion due to the polarization. If the crowd is split like 90/10 and you don't really have a counter argument to sway the crowd, then it's a good advice to take.[*]

Hence, "sanity checking"



[*] Obviously, you should only do this when the number of town outweighs scum. When you're in LYLO/MYLO, you are prety much on your own.

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Realio

Overtheorising.

[Realeo]

Don't worry. I don't expect everybody to be clever.

[Luca Blight]

Realeo, can I get an answer to my questions in post 165?

[Chip Butty]

Don't worry. I don't expect everybody to be clever.

Every time I've seen someone wallpost on 'philosophy of mafia', they've been scum.