In post 1570, Gamma Emerald wrote:We just went an entire day without activity I think. Step it up. Grendel I'd like you to cast a vote ASAP.
Been sick.
Not much has changed requiring me to post.
I could compromise on PenguinPower but {Gamma,Grendel,PP} are my three top scumreads.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841 GTKAS -- MathBlade
In post 1555, Drixx wrote:There's a reason I am not pushing Lime, despite his reaction to what I said being pretty scummy. It's a good reason. I'd prefer to leave it at that.
As far as nancy busing or not busing: I reject that as an argument. Her pushing Gamma knowing she would die is what I would expect if they are teammates. She has been saying for awhile she's going to quit or take an extended break, so if there was ever a time to change things up, why not now? Furthermore ... she went to her death with like 2% of the charisma she actually has on display. She could have gotten out of that lynch and yet she didn't. It therefore follows that she wanted to be lynched. It therefore follows that any argument about her "busing" isn't really relevant in this situation.
I mean ... I suppose it's mildly possible that she didn't get lynched and Gamma did, but I wouldn't call her effort at the end of yesterday noteworthy, and if she actually wanted to bus someone, she has the charisma to pull it off.
She has had near zero charisma for most of the game. I wouldn't say that there was any change in her play yesterday from previous days. Their were several posts of nancy complaining about signing up, the normals, and her avoiding the thread.
So she decided to eat the lynch. She has a well known meta of not busing. People are outright dismissing a super scummy slot because nancy kinda sorta pushed it. That sounds exactly like what I was asking for earlier: who benefits from the way she played it out?
1015, 1021, and 1114 are more then kinda sorta pushing when you consider that this would be nancy's first hypothetical bus in her whole mafia career. Also, nancy kept Sunlit/Gamma in her lynch pool for most the game. So while the vote came down on D3 nancy was okay with a Gamma lynch long before then, and that means that gamma isn't likely scum. Because knowing nancy from previous games she wouldn't have decided from the outset to bus. If she decided bus its more likel she would have done it on the fly. AND THATS IF she went against her long ingrained meta of "no bussing."
If there where underlying motives of misdirecting players away from somebody I think that there is a high chance that she was giving Math town cred via "Math & nancy manipulative mind games." Its a good way to distance and nancy doesn't have to cross her line of ethical play. It fits Nancy's previous moves as scum then her bussing.
That said its just as easy to say that there were no underlying motives. nancy looked like she wasn't caring much for the game in the first place, and may have just given up at the end.
Pairing me up with Math is absurd because I could easily have hammered Gamma without any heat for doing it, and instead I voted math and took heat off of gamma.
You seem most sure of Math ... why?
Not really. Gamma was the only wagon at the time, how often does town see no counter wagon and assume that its a good lynch in retrospect? (not often)
Also:
In post 1553, Grendel wrote: It could also mean that with you and nancy on the wagon, and third scum was too flighty to join a wagon with their buddies. Many scums feel that putting their whole team on a single wagon is bad juju. Espssally if Gamma were to be flipped with no counter wagon, and no reason at that point. From scum pov I’d think that hammering town Gamma there would look pretty bad in retrospect.
In post 1573, Drixx wrote:After the past few posts from Gamma (as I pointed out), I'm pretty sure he's scum. PP has remained an empty slot since replacing in and is a plausible partner.
Grendel you may as well take me out of your lynch pool. You haven't at all engaged with any of my posts so it just looks like you looked at the most recent vote count and don't really give a shit who gets lynched. You're about as a deep as a puddle.
Why are both you and Math pushing this narrative that I'm not invested in this game?
I have in fact poked you twice coming into this game
In post 1451, Drixx wrote:Thanks for your graciousness with everything going on with the hurricane and family and stuff. My folks have some damage, but nowhere near what they would have had the storm gone inland at the Tampa/St. Pete area as expected. They likely wouldn't have a house anymore in that case. Things were pretty crowded and they left me the gift of some kind of flu-like virus, but they're home safely now and I'm good.
Nancy has been exceptionally wily in my few experiences with her. I would appreciate if someone who knows her better could pipe up on what to look for in her posts to try and find her team. I'm a little weirded out by how her lynch happened also. I'm fairly sure she could have talked herself out of it, but she didn't seem to give a whole lot of effort to that end. Why would scum!nancy roll over like that?
Ginngie pinged a little bit with the comment about x-shot not fitting in the setup. Hindsight shows that nancy was faking, but I don't see why or how that conclusion was reached.
I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.
There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.
So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?
Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.
So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.
Glad that you and your family came out safely from the hurricane and its aftermath.
I think most these thoughts were well established with the flip.
So the question is, who do you think nancy was protecting?
In post 1481, Drixx wrote:Lime in da coconut wins the award for rolefishing as a reaction to me claiming to know of another PR. No town aligned player should want me to reveal such information, except in conditions where doing so would solve the game. And I certainly didn't say or imply that.
Is this as simple as Gamma Emerald and Lime?
@Ginngie - I would really like to see actual explanation and analysis please. I have a hard enough time getting a read on you. Short declarative statements for posts don't help. Even if it seems absurdly self-evident to you, can you please explain the rationale for how you arrive where you do? If you do it for no other reason than to demonstrate some new tools to help me, then at least do it for that please?
You said that the key to winning was to identify who nancy was defending.
So how was nancy defending Gamma by attempting to lynch him?
I didn't make a deal over it sense you did end up hitting my questions later, though you didn't address me directly.
I thought that you might be avoiding conflict, however, I guess its more likely you just didn't notice?
In post 1573, Drixx wrote:After the past few posts from Gamma (as I pointed out), I'm pretty sure he's scum. PP has remained an empty slot since replacing in and is a plausible partner.
Grendel you may as well take me out of your lynch pool. You haven't at all engaged with any of my posts so it just looks like you looked at the most recent vote count and don't really give a shit who gets lynched. You're about as a deep as a puddle.
Why are both you and Math pushing this narrative that I'm not invested in this game?
I have in fact poked you twice coming into this game
In post 1451, Drixx wrote:Thanks for your graciousness with everything going on with the hurricane and family and stuff. My folks have some damage, but nowhere near what they would have had the storm gone inland at the Tampa/St. Pete area as expected. They likely wouldn't have a house anymore in that case. Things were pretty crowded and they left me the gift of some kind of flu-like virus, but they're home safely now and I'm good.
Nancy has been exceptionally wily in my few experiences with her. I would appreciate if someone who knows her better could pipe up on what to look for in her posts to try and find her team. I'm a little weirded out by how her lynch happened also. I'm fairly sure she could have talked herself out of it, but she didn't seem to give a whole lot of effort to that end. Why would scum!nancy roll over like that?
Ginngie pinged a little bit with the comment about x-shot not fitting in the setup. Hindsight shows that nancy was faking, but I don't see why or how that conclusion was reached.
I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.
There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.
So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?
Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.
So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.
Glad that you and your family came out safely from the hurricane and its aftermath.
I think most these thoughts were well established with the flip.
So the question is, who do you think nancy was protecting?
In post 1481, Drixx wrote:Lime in da coconut wins the award for rolefishing as a reaction to me claiming to know of another PR. No town aligned player should want me to reveal such information, except in conditions where doing so would solve the game. And I certainly didn't say or imply that.
Is this as simple as Gamma Emerald and Lime?
@Ginngie - I would really like to see actual explanation and analysis please. I have a hard enough time getting a read on you. Short declarative statements for posts don't help. Even if it seems absurdly self-evident to you, can you please explain the rationale for how you arrive where you do? If you do it for no other reason than to demonstrate some new tools to help me, then at least do it for that please?
You said that the key to winning was to identify who nancy was defending.
So how was nancy defending Gamma by attempting to lynch him?
I didn't make a deal over it sense you did end up hitting my questions later, though you didn't address me directly.
I thought that you might be avoiding conflict, however, I guess its more likely you just didn't notice?
I started rereading some isos. Starting with Korts/Drixx. I'm getting off now but expect to come back and finish that tomorrow afternoon.
I'm thinking Lime next and finishing with Math.
@Gamma
Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?
Korts kinda reminds me of our mutual frieng UG's scum game. Where UG gets all Grandose and dramatic with his posting. Outside of that I'm not sure I'm seeing as much Korts!scum as I expected (I'm at Kort's 316 aka Tchill scum case). If you have any input to share please do.
In post 1579, Grendel wrote:I started rereading some isos. Starting with Korts/Drixx. I'm getting off now but expect to come back and finish that tomorrow afternoon.
I'm thinking Lime next and finishing with Math.
@Gamma
Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?
Korts kinda reminds me of our mutual frieng UG's scum game. Where UG gets all Grandose and dramatic with his posting. Outside of that I'm not sure I'm seeing as much Korts!scum as I expected (I'm at Kort's 316 aka Tchill scum case). If you have any input to share please do.
Scum chain lynches town don't.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841 GTKAS -- MathBlade
In post 1464, lime in da coconut wrote:It should be obvious enough given my stance we had only one weaker PR remaining I was claiming to not hold one.
In post 1451, Drixx wrote:I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case. There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.
You would think so! But actually you're wrong.
You would think so! Yet before I've seen this cop.
You would think so! But actually you're wrong.
You would think so! Yet before I've seen this cop.
Actually, this isn't the case. You would think so, but I know from experience in Normals this is not the case. I would have to track down which completed Normal games demonstrate my point, but I have personally witnessed almost this exact combination before: a weaker backup to a stronger role. (Or a stronger backup to a weaker role, I don't quite remember which.) The backup vanilla cop is classified as a COP, thus is a backup to a COP, even though it is a vanilla cop.
You may personally find it weird, yet the key part of the role is not vanilla/novice, but rather, both being Cops. (The key is not to think how you personally would file the roles but to look at how the NRG files the roles. And I am telling you that a backup vanilla cop can become active upon the death of a cop by NRG logic.) As a result, I find it quite curious you claim to have knowledge of an additional PR. Do share, because I'm quite positive we do not have one.
In post 1343, massive wrote:So let's see, so far we have a flipped jailkeeper, a flipped vigilante, a flipped cop. When I said "role madness" was when Ginngie was also claiming a PR. At what point do you NOT go "this is role madness"? Lucky for you we're lynching nancy today. VOTE: Nancy
I say hold on! You are acting with some haste.
I say hold on! Lynching nancy is a waste.
I say hold on! You are acting with some haste.
I say hold on! Lynching nancy is a waste.
I may be playing under a gimmicky alt but I am quite familiar with the balance standards of normal games. We have a Jailkeeper, a Vig, and a Novice Cop. Were the cop ungated, I'd buy that against an all-goon scumteam as balanced. However, the cop
was
gated, even if only loosely so. As a result, I would fully expect exactly one extra town power role in the game (and maybe a weak scum PR). If nancy is said extra, then she is town.
In post 1382, Grendel wrote:I have another question, do you believe that nancy isn't really a pr?
I believe that nancy isn't a TOWN PR.
I say I do! Thus I cannot follow that.
I say I do! Her as town fits all my facts.
I say I do! Thus I cannot follow that.
I say I do! Her as town fits all my facts.
Unless I get an explicit roleclaim from a player, I trust her to be town. Do you disagree with my belief that the town can and should have four (not three) roles this game?
In post 1396, massive wrote:I do agree with your belief. Which is why I don't believe nancy is town. And I'm going to end up effectively counterclaiming her anyways no matter what she says. So here's me: I'm a backup to one of the dead roles. I guess I'll expect your vote on nancy in your next post?
What I'm saying is, prior to this exchange it was assumed nancy was a town PR (because the game should have 4 roles with the last surviving one being weaker) and thus we shouldn't force her to claim details. massive agreed with the theory of the game having 4 roles with the last surviving one being weaker...and counterclaimed town PR, giving specifics as him being a backup to a dead role.
In post 1467, Gamma Emerald wrote:As for what Drixx said I think it's more of a speculative conclusion that there's a vanilla cop, which I'm not so sure of.
Not what I've taken issue of, it's more the followup,
Not what I've taken issue of, it's more the followup.
Drixx was indeed speculating (incorrectly) to the presence of a vanilla cop. That is not what I took issue with. What I took issue with is what he said after that:
In post 1451, Drixx wrote:There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.
Drixx is NOT referring to the Vanilla Cop with this sentence. He is referring to "knowing" the presence and/or identity (it is admittedly ambiguous which) of "at least" one other 'town' PR. This is not a generic "WE know". It's HE knows. And thus, I am demanding an answer.
In post 1467, Gamma Emerald wrote:And no, backup vanilla cop doesn't become active on regular cop death, deputy does.
The two are not mutually exclusive. A deputy (also called
backup cop
) does in fact become a cop upon the death of a cop. A
backup
vanilla
cop
however is a
backup cop
with (in a sense) the vanilla-investigation "modifier". As a result, upon the death of a normal cop, a backup vanilla cop is activated without the need for a vanilla cop. Regardless of whether you agree with that logic, it is the logic the NRG operates under.
In post 1481, Drixx wrote:Lime in da coconut wins the award for rolefishing as a reaction to me claiming to know of another PR. No town aligned player should want me to reveal such information, except in conditions where doing so would solve the game. And I certainly didn't say or imply that.
This is my point that I did make, attention should be paid,
This is my point that I did make, attention should be paid.
Exactly my point. You apparently didn't read my exchange with Gamma Emerald because my stance should be abundantly clear. This is not the theme games you're more accustomed to playing, Drixx. This is a mini normal. There are rules and guidelines dictating matters such as balance. We had a cop, a vig, and a jailkeeper (with only the slightest of gates on the cop). This is about the strongest role combination possible in a mini normal. We had one additional role in the form of massive's backup vanilla cop.
Ergo, all remaining town players are vanilla townies. Ergo, any power role claim would be scum. Ergo, revealing information about a "town" power role outs a scum player. Ergo, doing so WOULD solve the game. That's precisely the point I was making which you so conveniently are ignoring. We have no more town power. It's not possible, because there is absolutely no scum power which could possibly balance extra town power given what the town already has.
In post 1481, Drixx wrote:Is this as simple as Gamma Emerald and Lime?
Good luck pushing that I went from bussing one partner to bussing the other. Especially if anyone here correctly alt-guesses me.
Wait says I this is a bad vote, no matter how Math floats,
Wait says I this is a bad vote, no matter how Math floats.
Regardless of Mathblade's alignment this vote absolutely sucks. We're nowhere near being ready to end the day, and even if we were, this is a vote which is opportunistic-if-Math-town and towncred-zone-if-Math-scum. It particularly sucks because of something I've already quoted in this very post: what happened to 1481 in which Drixx called the scumteam Gamma-lime? Now he's voting with Gamma on Mathblade and dropping his push on me?
That sums up my reasons. You've claimed knowledge of the presence of extra roles when none should exist. You've avoided giving this information in spite of me explaining my stance. You suggested a ridiculous scumteam, then dropped the scumteam altogether to place an L-1 vote on someone who you weren't previously pushing. (You have since explained this but at the time I did not see anything of the sort.) It is not enough to lynch you on, but it is enough where you are a subject of interest. I should also note your response to the votes was also poor, but less relevant.
I do admit! That is not something crazy.
I do admit! Were I scum that team could be.
I do admit! That is not something crazy.
I do admit! Were I scum that team could be.
Admittedly, were I scum that would be a viable scumteam. If you were expecting me to have some sort of evidence to contradict you, I'm sorry to disappoint but I'm fully aware exactly how plausible that combination looks. But let's cross that bridge only if we come to it. Mathblade is lynched and flips scum, I'll happily eat the mislynch. (It's not ideal but two scum dead and first partner suspect lynched allows for a lylo where the survivors can figure out the third.)
In post 1536, Gamma Emerald wrote:Hm
Math go look at nancy's late interactions with Grendel and tell me with a straight face that he's her mafia partner
This is prompted after a quick look at nancy's ISO fueled by my tryhard mode being on. I'm gonna also reISO myself and see what I think of things I found notable earlier.
I don't like this posting in here, so methodically,
I don't like this posting in here, so methodically.
I swear I won't forgive myself if Gamma is scum and gets away with posting like this. It feels so wrong. I'm not even sure Gamma is scum anymore, but if he isn't he sure knows how to act like one.
I realize I spearheaded a Drixx push, but nothing kills my interest in wagoning there faster than my primary and secondary suspects voting the wagon. Drixx is right:
In post 1550, Drixx wrote:Looks like the blank votes on me are opportunism.
snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this game by doing stupid shit like ignoring the really obvious?
Actually! That's not how I'd call the game.
Actually! Our town has been pretty lame.
Actually! That's not how I'd call the game.
Actually! Our town has been pretty lame.
Honestly I'd say you have it backwards. Given the consecutive no-lynches (only lynching Titus through mod error) and roleclaims of our three strongest roles D1, a town win would be snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. I replaced in wanting to draw scum because I knew if I drew town I'd be likely to lose, but since I did draw town I agree with what you're conveying, that we need to be careful in order to win.
In post 1545, MathBlade wrote:@Lime odds of scum lurking trying to tear people apart?
Could be I do agree with you, but the question is who,
Could be I do agree with you, but the question is who.
It's possible, but it wouldn't be Grendel most likely. The player I'd call most guilty of lurking is PenguinPower. After that, it depends on your definition of lurking. If your definition includes "posting but doing nothing with their posting", I would say it's a tie between Gamma Emerald and Drixx.
Currently playing around with scumteams.
I shouldn't write Grendel off yet but I find myself not really seeing him as scum for some reason. I'll need to consult my notes again.
Of those remaining, we have:
Mathblade/PenguinPower (no)
Mathblade/Drixx (I'm not sure what to think yet)
Mathblade/Gamma Emerald (nigh impossible)
PenguinPower/Drixx (possible)
PenguinPower/Gamma Emerald (has been the team most consistently fitting)
Drixx/Gamma Emerald (I'm not sure what to think yet)
I'd be most inclined to vote PenguinPower. I would vote any of Gamma Emerald/Drixx/Mathblade as a compromise.
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841 GTKAS -- MathBlade
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841 GTKAS -- MathBlade
In post 1541, Drixx wrote:So what makes anyone think I'm scum? Blank votes started by Gamma (who could easily have been hammered earlier, and was the consensus lynch until Math slipped) and PP (who replaced a totally empty slot) aren't exactly overwhelming here.
Do feel free to actually give some kind of cogent argument.
I voted you because I don't like your progression that led to you voting Math...I'm guessing you are ignoring that question.
In post 1550, Drixx wrote:Unvote <--- For example; I thought I saw mathblade slip. There's legit a quoted post where they refer to being scum openly and I was like "WTF weird for math to slip like that", but assumed it was the reason votes had shifted that way. But I went back and looked and Math was legit talking about another game for some reason. (When will smart people learn that whatever happened in another game with another setup with different people cannot accurately inform you about any specific later piece of information?).
Still ignored me, but you did at least explain it.
In post 1581, lime in da coconut wrote:I realize I spearheaded a Drixx push, but nothing kills my interest in wagoning there faster than my primary and secondary suspects voting the wagon. Drixx is right:
You did? Where was your vote on the wagon? First, second, not at all?
Kort's Early game posts (Pages 1~4) were very try hard in nature. I never was able to chalk it up the try hardness there was an indicator that he was scum trying for town cred. A part of me always felt that his over all reactions to things there were out of eagerness to be in a set up where spammy posting would be discouraged. Therefore non-AI. I guess my feelings reading this now haven't changed much In that I can see both sides as possible
I think that its worth noting that the RVS push on Precy is something that I see older players doing as a form a early distance (Pre-2010). At least I see it more than I do with newer players.
Spoiler:
In post 160, Korts wrote:Whoops, looks like there's a couple pages to go through since my last post. I plan on falling off the map later tonight, so I'll just do a quick catch-up post and respond to anyone who addressed me. More to come tomorrow and on the weekend.
In post 67, Korts wrote:Which is not to say that I don't think Persephone isn't suspcious independent of your arguments. Her play has been pretty poor so far - but yours can be characterized more specifically as opportunistic.
So how do you read Persephone's ISO then? What do you not agree on me about?
~~~~~
What would I gain as scum by pushing Percy's wagon right now if not to scumhunt and to learn from her reactions?
What would I gain as scum by openly questioning townreads people have on me this early?
Reading Persephone's ISO, I partly believe her claim that her newbieness is the main driving force behind the poor play. I dislike her panicky lack of commitment to her RVS vote when pushed, and she is still more focused on explaining and excusing herself than analyzing others' behavior around her, which is anti-town at best.
What do I not agree with you about? Dude. I told you already. You argued that Persephone's reason being "too serious" is scummy, and I think that argument is bogus.
What would you gain with a Percy wagon? A potential lynch, something to keep posting about, someplace to keep your vote. Are you saying that pushing a Percy wagon should be considered an exclusively pro-town venture?
By openly questioning (unjustified) townreads on yourself, you are heading off anyone else doing the same, and besides - you didn't object to the read, you just asked Ginggie how much she trusts the read, like you were fishing for an ally.
I mean, before writing this post, I was pretty much past my initial suspicion of you, because you have made some salient points elsewhere, but now that you made me explain all this (again), I'm reconsidering my reconsideration.
Unlike Korts, I don't vote someone who I only disagree with. His push against me was NAI. It could be something a town can do, but it lost townpoints because it was a bullshit push. Anyway, why do you think that I had to vote Korts?
Hey fuck you. Disagreement was not my reason for voting you. I laid out my bullshit case quite clearly, thank you.
God, Ginggie is being useless in this game. It doesn't sound deliberate, but come on.
Tchill
Robbnva wrote:the true definition of rvs
Pouiusdfnblxkjnvqeroőüignjsdbfblkaémnm are you trying to give me an aneurysm?
massive was distressingly cryptic to start with, but 138 is a much more reasoned and reasonable write-up than previous posts. Especially the Kaboose suspicion, which I have glossed over on first read but looks like a potential catch now. I will do my proper weekend reread with an eye toward this as well.
In post 154, Sunlit Diamond wrote:I still think Percy is way, way overreacting, but after her response to my last post I am not (currently) scumreading her for it. I will revisit later in this phase / next phase and see if what she gave me stands up to scrutiny.
The scum I
am
seeing is VOTE: TChill. He has spent an inordinate amount of his 21 posts defending Percy (directly and indirectly) and redirecting attention to other players. This looks more like like buddying up (white knighting? pocketing? What is the correct term?) than scum teaming to me, given what I first said.
Robb, what are your reads OTHER than Percy?
Finally, something from you that I can completely agree with.
My vote stays on Tchill.
Korts first substantive post after the rvs posting which was a lot of talking without strong points to go off of.
What really appeared to me in this post was where Korts adderessed HumanEatingMonkey about Percy. I actually think that Korts makes very good points about her newbieness being the source of her play. If Korts is town here it totally makes sense to view Percy as an unsubstsive place to push given that she is most likely going to continue defending herself and spazzing out. Mafia _would_ benefit from pushing Precy in that situation, or even just ignoring her wagon, moreso then discouraging the wagon.
I suppose this could be Korts defending his move away from scum buddy Percy (Pengiun now)
Tchill’s playstyle was pretty scummy, and I could see twon fostering suspicions there. Korts thoughts on Tchill also make sense in the circumstance.
Spoiler:
In post 310, Korts wrote:Eddie what the fuck with the shitstream - how is "hm" and "lol?" in response to quotes from ten pages ago worth a separate post each? Get it together. Take your fucking time. Compose a fucking thought and consider the value of coherence in your writing.
In post 302, Eddie Cane wrote:lol yeah you're just scum you're getting roped today. you aren't attempting to sort me, you just said you aren't going to interact with me anymore and that's because you know you're stuck in a corner. me not having time to actually read the game and rvsing for a bit doesn't allow you to write me off.
this means t chill is town and won't be lynched meaning ginngie will probably help you try to mislynch me. t chill, stop being a scummy scumfuck and post something useful to reassure me. you can even 2v2 ginngie and robb with me! ginngie is probably tilted town tho so your focus is robb.
Uhh... How the fuck does Robb's tunneling mean that Tchill is town? That is by far the stupidest thing I've read in this thread yet. And your Ginggie read is jumping all over the place. I can't even begin to understand what you're going for here.
The explanation in 304/305 isn't very compelling. It hinges on some pretty big assumptions of intention. You're also playing the newbie card on Tchill's behalf pretty hard.
But okay, you have some experience with him. Does he usually partake in any substantial scumhunting?
I View this kind of talking down/ lecturing other players more townlike in D1 when town stand to lynch based off their feelings moreso then fact or logic. Acting like your least favorite teacher from middle school doesn’t play to scum win-con D1 usually. At least, there are much better ways to be the “helpful protown scum lord” then integrating derision into the lessons.
I know that some players tend to be more prone to lecturing less experienced players as one alignment or another. If anybody here knows if Korts has meta to be preach as one alignment or the other speaking up would be great.
In post 374, Robbnva wrote:Btw voting my top scum read is and always will be protown. Don't ever say I'm not being protown when I absolutely am.
The goal of the game is to find and lynch scum. That's what I'm trying to do.
That is however nothing like what you are doing. You omgus me after you say your predecessor could be scum
Whatever else is up with you and Eddie (and I keep going back and forth in my mind on it) this is just not true, Robb. If you want to help the town get rid of scum, you need to work with the town. If you cannot convince us to lynch your scum pick, then you are not helping by refusing to entertain other possibilities. There is more than one scum. The town needs a consensus, not single-minded renegades who are willing to throw their votes away on principle.
I actually think that compromising D1 and finding censuous early is a very protown move, and seeing that Korts enforced it here is… surprising. I’m surprised I missed it.
When I roll scum in a game where a can afford to I’ll let town’s votes stagnate D1 since that Mad rush at EoD to find a lynch is extremely pro-scum. Clearly Korts knew this as well, but would he have kept that factoid to himself as scum? Part of me thinks so.
Spoiler:
In post 486, Korts wrote:Okay, well, I don't really feel like doing a huge recap, so here are just my reads, from most likely town to most likely scum.
Spoiler: Obv-Town to Townish
nancy
- I feel like nancy has been completely transparent and pro-town. I really don't know what to highlight here.
Dark Horse
- a step below nancy, he has not been anywhere near as engaged, but whenever he posts I find myself agreeing with everything he says.
massive
- this is a town read that I am very uncertain about, but considering my other reads, and the fact that there really isn't anything to suspect massive for, I cannot justify a lower position on the ladder. The evolution of his Tchill read in particular resonates with me, and his conclusion that we're barking up the wrong tree had me thinking for a bit. Then again, with massive's unassailable performance of towniness in mind, I'm still interested in a Tchill flip - if massive is scum, we're probably fucked, unless Tchill is scum too.
Ginggie
- I go back and forth, sometimes reading her tounge-in-cheek one-liner style as a good mask for her actual intentions, but then she also seems genuinely invested in scumhunting. I don't know what to take of the 393 claim, but that is neither here nor there at this point. I considered putting her lower because of Tchill's weird interactions with her, but I find everyone below this point scummier for more germane reasons.
Spoiler: Middle-of-the-Road
Grendel
- I dunno. massive had a decent point against Kaboose (not following up on pressure) which I thought would be interesting, but looking at it in context now it's just asking questions (from not just massive) as he is catching up, so uh, nope. I think Grendel has done a solid job of getting up to gear, but I'm not sure what direction he's going in. I know I don't like his final question to Ginggie in 402.
humaneatingmonkey
- I feel like he didn't come out looking particularly well from our early tiff, but then again, I wasn't really scumhunting at that point so much as generating content. Since then, however, he has made a few good posts in between active lurking due to work. I don't really have enough to judge him by, so he's right in the middle of the road for now.
Robbnva
- Oh Robb. Really the only thing about Robb in this game is Percy/Eddie. I'm reading Robb vs Percy/Eddie as TvT, but then I really don't understand how town deathtunnels so hard, or how Eddie lost his second chance in Robb's eyes after replacing in - this warrants a separate reread that I know I'm going to hate myself for promising.
Eddie Cane
- again, same as above, I read along with most of the Robb vs Eddie argument thinking it's TvT, but especially with Eddie's later reactions, I kind of have the feeling that I just thought that so that I wouldn't have to think about it. I say all of this without having reread them, though. I guess I will have to, but not this time around.
Spoiler: Scummy to Obv-Scum
Sunlit Diamond
- this is admittedly a gut scum read. Actually reading back, the only thing I can pinpoint as dumb is his "so good it's scummy" reaction to my Tchill case, which I guess may be personal, but also makes me want to pursue Tchill more, and see if there is a connection.
Vecna
- Ari has not been useful to the game, let alone the town, so I hesitate to judge this slot by his actions. Then again, nancy seemed convinced that Ari was playing to his scum meta. I also agree with massive's heebies regarding the "not saying you are scum" comment. I really don't see why humaneatingmonkey was the vote for him, either. I don't see that wagon taking off, nor has he made any case for it (in his initial reads, he only mentions a minor feeling, nothing substantial).
Tchill
- I gotta say, the response to my case made me a bit uncertain despite the way I doubled down in public. Then again, I have applied the same lack of care for my own slot both as scum and town before, so the genuineness is NAI for me. Other than that, see my case for why I still think he's scum; since then, he's been noticeably more careful IMO, and now I'm all the more convinced.
Assemblerotws
- Wow. Talk about flying under the radar. Lynch All Lurkers, anyone?
So. The three lynches I am willing to go for today are Assemble, Tchill, and Vecna. I'm going back to the Tchill wagon for now, but if anyone wants to help one of the others take off, I'm all for it.
VOTE: Tchill
Nancy would most likely encourage her buddies to keep her as a high town read. So Korts having Nancy their at the top makes sense.
Korts keeping Darkhorse (Lime) as second top town read is less likely for them to be partnherners since it would mean that Korts was keeping both buddies as top town read with low ideation as to why. I just don’t think that Korts is that confidant a scum player.
The null slots where Robbnva (Math), and Eddie (Pengiun), make more sense as reads made on second scum buddy.
In post 837, Sunlit Diamond wrote:What reason would scum!TChill have for saying he didn't shoot versus hiding behind Vecna's JK?
Actually that's a good question. I... don't know.
VOTE: Unvote
Then again, Tchill's play has been less than optimal regardless of alignment, so arguing out of a position of "why would scumTchill do this" doesn't help my read a hell of a lot either. I kinda dread having him around at endgame, because who the fuck can tell.
I gotta go catch a train, I will address other stuff later today.
In post 823, Tchill13 wrote:I did not use my ability and I am not claiming one shot. I wasn't gonna kill a townie on accident on top of the fact that we had already given scum a free kill because of the no lynch.
I mean, if anything, the no lynch gave us more room for town deaths. You could have used the kill to try scumhunting yourself, and give the town a flip to work with next day even though we bungled the lynch. assembler was at L-1, and I would have hammered if I was here, as would I imagine most of us who didn't make it, so we would all have welcomed that shot - then you had a monkey suspicion that was shared by others, whose flip would have helped clear the air as well - there were good targets for you to shoot. That you didn't choose any of them is baffling.
I mean, I was expecting you to blame Vecna's jailkeeping. It completely throws me off that you just didn't shoot at all. I don't understand how you thought not shooting would benefit the town.
I don't really think that scum Korts would back off here?
From a scum perspective publicly waffling on a claim is NOT something a mafiaso would want to do. Town on the other hand wouldn’t know one way or another, and are prone to publicly doubting themselves. It makes more sense for scum to buckle down, or to not have pursued the thought in the first place.
In post 892, Gamma Emerald wrote:@Korts: your case on TChill feels a bit like trying to come up with scum reasoning for every post, which feels forced. What was the intention here?
I'm sure a proper PBPA feels forced nowadays, but that's how I learned to play the game. If you're sure of a scum read, you gather your evidence and present your case. I highlighted any of Tchill's posts where I could see the reflection of a scummy mindset; that that ended up being most of his posts is circumstantial.
While Korts does explain how important through analysis here I do think that making grandiose catch up posts, in this case reread posts, are a good place from scum to provide content without having to engage other players. I think Korts came from a time where wall posting was more expected and required, so there is a decent chance he'd do this kind of thing as both alignments. Also in his last game here as town, he did make lots of review walls.
I do think that his review wall, and case on Tchill are both good examples of the grandiose behavior I was talking about earlier.
-/-/-/-/-/-/-
I don't know what to make of Korts push on Robbvana. Robb subbing out due to Korts case and remarks seems weird for a S/S interaction.
^I saw that when I previewed, but idk how to fix it.
-/-/-/-/-/-/-
A couple other thoughts:
-Did Korts ever become a real wagon this game? I didn't see anything in the VCs but I am pretty sure he got wagoned up a few times right?
-I think that transition from his eager attitude to disinterest is well... interesting. He was under pressure post Gamma's sub in but otherwise his team and him were doing fine. So I think that him leaving the game is odd unless another buddy was under more pressure then him, (nancy was widely town read so it wasn't her)
-I actually think that a majority of the cases Korts posted against other players are pretty soild. Its hard to describe a reason for why Korts is scum that isn't gut related. It explains why I never could get a soild read on him then, and is still an issue now.
-/-/-/-/-
Drixx Iso should be a quicker read fortunately.
After that I'll start with Lime's pred. I'm hoping to finish all this slot reviewing today since I may not have much time tomorrow.
In post 1581, lime in da coconut wrote:I realize I spearheaded a Drixx push, but nothing kills my interest in wagoning there faster than my primary and secondary suspects voting the wagon. Drixx is right:
You did? Where was your vote on the wagon? First, second, not at all?
ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841 GTKAS -- MathBlade
In post 1219, Ginngie wrote:I see that you see no reason, still tho, vote it because it's scummy not to compromise
I'm not going to hammer before Titus can even say anything, and since the person we
should
be lynching has already given intent to hammer, I only need to be around near deadline just in case in order to ensure we don't have consecutive no lynches. I'm not unreasonable in that way. We have to lynch and if I can't persuade you by pointing out why the Titus slot has no reason to be lynched and pointing out why the other slot does, then that's my failing, isn't it?
I mean... I think I made a pretty compelling case that there's literally NO reason to lynch Titus and in fact if I had to give a read on the slot I'd say it's slightly town because of the early posts which were on point and don't appear to be scum narrative bullshit.
I'll be sure to be around near deadline just in case for some reason I have to ensure we actually lynch today, but that doesn't obligate me to stop trying to persuade you guys that it's the wrong lynch. Please go take a look at the things I pointed out and see if you don't agree with me.
I think that justifying Assembler's play was town like, (even mildly so), is amusing. Wagon physics or no Assemble never should have been above null. Drixx may really think that he had a point with Assemble in prevous post, I just objectively disagree that any of Assemble said was town like.
Spoiler:
In post 1451, Drixx wrote: I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.
There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.
So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?
Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.
So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.
I only just noticed the bit about knowing another pr. Tbh I think that its better for Drixx to claim now then at lylo. Especially if this claim can clear him.
Spoiler:
In post 1283, Drixx wrote:So I'm sitting here waiting for the info drop and ... it's going so slowly I got prodded. Holy shit this game is like molasses at the south pole ... only I think the molasses moves faster.
I've given it well enough time. Looks like the blank votes on me are opportunism.
I've got an idea, but it might offend a couple of you. How about we
NOT
snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this game by doing stupid shit like ignoring the really obvious?
Unvote
<--- For example; I thought I saw mathblade slip. There's legit a quoted post where they refer to being scum openly and I was like "WTF weird for math to slip like that", but assumed it was the reason votes had shifted that way. But I went back and looked and Math was legit talking about another game for some reason. (When will smart people learn that whatever happened in another game with another setup with different people cannot accurately inform you about any specific later piece of information?).
I even REFERENCED mathblade slipping, and nobody corrected me.
Like ... are we actually even trying here guys?
Meanwhile we've got Gamma somehow shrugging off a wagon by ... blank voting.
Did I wander into a newbie primer game or something? (Newbie primer = game to prepare one to play a newbie).
Okay, so I really dislike the negative tone and dismissive additute towards other players when the game state has made a potential U-turn away from town loss. Things like calling this a newbie primer game, and how we keep missing the obvious. Like he is acknowledging that town has a real chance, but keeps complaining instead of focusing on moving the game forward.
I do get that the second response is in frustration over the motivation/reason of Drixx voting Math. So it does make sense with more context.
I still dislike how Drixx implied I wasn't invested in this game or some crap. Its really not his place to judge what I'm doing or my play when I've been very open about having a tight schedule.
Spoiler:
In post 1541, Drixx wrote:So what makes anyone think I'm scum? Blank votes started by Gamma (who could easily have been hammered earlier, and was the consensus lynch until Math slipped) and PP (who replaced a totally empty slot) aren't exactly overwhelming here.
Do feel free to actually give some kind of cogent argument.
This is technically a town slip, (or a DrixxXMath slip) I usually ignore these from experienced players.
I have to acknowledge that it did come out of nowhere. It wasn't hard enough to pull any town cred, (clearly looking at peoples reactions). His explanation is also believable enough.
-/-/-/-/-/-/-
So this is a lot to consider. I have to stop now to do homework. when I get back I'll do DarkHourse/Lime.
I hope I can stream line this process in future games since reviewing isos takes a huge chunk of my irl time. I dread doing them these days. -.-
In post 1579, Grendel wrote:I started rereading some isos. Starting with Korts/Drixx. I'm getting off now but expect to come back and finish that tomorrow afternoon.
I'm thinking Lime next and finishing with Math.
@Gamma
Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?
Korts kinda reminds me of our mutual frieng UG's scum game. Where UG gets all Grandose and dramatic with his posting. Outside of that I'm not sure I'm seeing as much Korts!scum as I expected (I'm at Kort's 316 aka Tchill scum case). If you have any input to share please do.
I take it this refers to Korts/Drixx?
<Embrace The Void>
“A flipped coin doesn't always land heads or tails. Sometimes it may never land at all...”
In post 1579, Grendel wrote:I started rereading some isos. Starting with Korts/Drixx. I'm getting off now but expect to come back and finish that tomorrow afternoon.
I'm thinking Lime next and finishing with Math.
@Gamma
Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?
Korts kinda reminds me of our mutual frieng UG's scum game. Where UG gets all Grandose and dramatic with his posting. Outside of that I'm not sure I'm seeing as much Korts!scum as I expected (I'm at Kort's 316 aka Tchill scum case). If you have any input to share please do.
I take it this refers to Korts/Drixx?
Yes it does
PenguinPower wrote:
In post 1595, Gamma Emerald wrote:If I remember correctly you only do it when you're trying to case someone right?
Pretty much. It's not hard set, but, yep.
If that's true why not take the time to case out the two of them?
