Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Grendel]

Grendel replaces Kaboose!

Now seeking replacement for Aristophanes.

Checking in!

I'm not caught up yet. (I wasn't expecting this sub in to happen as fast as it did) Guess I should have been following the game when I offered to be on the replacement list? I'll have to come in later tonight to start my read through. I know several players on this roster, so I'm pretty excited to be here.

As its my first post I want to wish you all a good game.

[Grendel]

I'm caught up, but also tired.

*@Eddie*

g) excited for grendel. he should bring me some sanity I hope.

Have we played together before?

I'm sorry but I don't remember you. :/

@Sunlit

On a more serious note, it is ironic that Robb first said he would not death tunnel on PS, and then totally did just that. I also realize that linking to other games for reference is a thing here, but bragging about catching RC is bothering me on an intuitive level.

That said, I still think TChill is the better lynch this round.

I have no idea why, but I'm beginning to believe Robb. O_o

Town would not shit post either so yeah...

This is blatantly false, even in my limited experience so far.

I'm not saying shitposting is good. I'd be happy if it didn't happen at all. But at least try to be rational/truthful in your statements?

I find this back and forth on Robb vs Cane slimy. Espesaenly when it looks like a bad town v town. To me it looks like you're happy to have those two butting against each other, and would encourage it as long as possible.

Like 50% of your iso is playing the field between Precy/eddie, and Robb.

*@Assemble*

VOTE: Robb for blowing up RVS into a much more important matter than it deserves.

Do you have any thoughts on the rest of the game so far?

I'm fairly certain at least two of TChill, ginngie, monkey, and Kaboose are scum, because they all have different scummy habits I saw people pointing out while rereading. The trick is figuring out which is which.

What habits are you talking about?
Break down the team compositions?

Robb also sounds like scum because he lied in 144, saying that he'd already brought up half his arguments against Persephone when he had until that point never brought up the town cred Persephone claimed for taking the game out of RVS or the attempt to just play it off as RVS. He's also using a definition of RVS that literally nobody else on this site uses, and all his arguments until 100 or so centered wholly around RVS to try and justify a lynch. To be honest, until I looked at his join date right now, I legit thought this was his first game on this site and he was trying what could have worked on another site to get a townie lynched.

Sorry, but I've read several of Rob's games and this is just legit how he plays. His thought process of, "town should never lie", dominates his D1 play. Making him process things in a very binary right/wrong way. Regardless whether you think its bad play its only ever been non-ai for him tmk.

I think players have been over looking Assemble for far too long. He has done nothing original, or meaningful this game.

*@Gingie*

Also I'm pretty sure I told everyone about me being IC day 3 or no?

If this is a gambit you need to say so now.

[Grendel]

I wish that it were early into the day b/c its going to be hard getting a good lynch with my town reads voting each other. I'll try and get the game state in a better place, but its gonna be tight.

I should also really look at Tchill because I'm not sure what my feeling are there yet.

[Grendel]

Vecna Aristophanes

- Gotta love replacing into a slot that hasnt done much and is already under suspicion

Wait are you saying that you were town reading the slot you subbed into before you got in here? Why, Ari did nothing this game?

I agree that Eddie, and Rob are TvT tho.

I just don't like people saying I'm not doing a good job convincing others when nobody has even attempted to convince me. I'm also not interested in tchill anymore.

Eddie/massive and idk who is my 3rd. Maybe black or korts but idk. Monkey doesn't impress me either but my gut says he's town for now and idk what my gut is even using to decide that.

I just can't see past Eddie rn so maybe this game break will help. But if he isn't lynched and we lynch a townie I'm gonna be pissed.

When I get a chance to sit down later tonight I can talk more about my Eddie/Percy read. Will you be here for that?

[Grendel]

i don't leave until tomorrow morning at 5 am so probably can see what you have to say. Though if it is a post explaining why they aren't scum i'll be honest and probably not put much weight in it. I don't think anything can change my read of that slot

This puts me in a bad position because I want us to be on the same page, but I don't think I have the persuasive strength to move you off your personal opinions. I don't want to put a lot of effort into this if all its going to do is make you want to do is leave the game. Even if I disagree with your conclusions I am listening to what you have to say! Can you consider moving your vote elsewhere for today?

Perhaps getting some distance from the game will help open up communication when you get back.

don't really care. if people are going to low blow discredit me and say i am using this as a strategy they can piss off and the mod can replace me.

I believe you are feeling the feelings you feel, and moreover I don't want you to sub out.

Anyways, I like playing with people I have previous experience with.

[Grendel]

i didn't realize robb deathtunnels stupidly in most games. after skimming a couple of his other games and rereading him here he might be town. i didn't see any of his scum games in my skim. if someone actually told me this was a regular occurrence.... lol I am disappointed in yall.

that said, he's refusing to interact or acknowledge me. i try to big the biggerperson and he replies with basically the ewuivalent of shut up. its very disappointing because most people I try and change my read on are more mature and if he's going to continue to act like this it's probably just scum not wanting to change a read. could just be town who can't control emotions but idk. right now id say I have robb 60/40 town and 80/20 odds on him replying this saying I'm still scum or not replying.

VOTE: sd

sd has pinged me a fair bit. right now I'm waffling on voting Korts, ginngie, monkey and sd. ginngie is pushing garbage and has a weird ass overconfident attitude but I can see that as personality and I don't want to get in a shouting match with them rn. similarly, I have some scum vibes on korts, but I've mostly just seen town reads expressed and additionally I imagine trying to lynch korts will be an ordeal I don't have the time for before deadline. maybe next day if my read gets stronger. for now I also see town notes but id say he's like 60/40 scum. don't like the lamisty bitching about posts in the slightest either. monkey is probably the one Im closest to voting after sd (along with massive). considering I'm voting sd without any reasoning given I'm curios how this'll go.

I'll post more tonight or tomorrow depending how late I get off tonight. this is a quick flphone post equivalent for post count


also pedit: sorry rc. I'll pm.

I mentioned that Rob is notoriously stubborn, and always assumes lies=scum. Though I didn't @ you spefically so you may have missed it.

VOTE: SunlitDiamond I am also supportive of this lynch.

Are you still town reading Assemble? I saw that you were when I was catching up and I don't understand why?

@GINGIE

[quote="In post 402
*@Gingie*

Also I'm pretty sure I told everyone about me being IC day 3 or no?

If this is a gambit you need to say so now.[/quote]

Did you miss this Gingie?

---
I will look at Tchill now.

Tomorrow I'll look at Monkey, and Korts.

[Grendel]

Yeah so far my thoughts are there's been way too much attention brought on to Percy for a simple rvs vote. Then I believe it seemed like korts and monkey were looking into it a little too much. Specifically korts with his accusation of Percy using wifom. Percy got called out for a BS reason. She then tried to provide information that wasn't there to appease those who were giving her attention. Of course that's gonna come off as scummy especially if your thought process is biased.

I don't like that most of the inferred reads here have to do with "x players were taking RVS too seriously." Moving from random posting to joke posting is how you move the gamestate along. I think scum reading korts/money for that reason is bad, and seeing how Tchill had a real hand in those points is also bad. Ie Scum projecting what they are subconsciously guilty of on other players. Unfortently my "scum projection" tell hasn't been tested enough for me to know its accuracy. It could be calked up to a "Gut feel" instead.

Anycase, Tchill supported a game phase that he later disparages as a "something you can't take seriously" was worth a chuckle.

If I cared about how I was viewed or was too worried about each move why would I move my vote around like I have?

Alright... Why am I the best lynch? Give me some questions I can answer. Anybody. I'll do my best to answer sufficiently.

Umm... Who pointed out my scummy habits?

These posts are incredibly egocentric. This unnatural worry about how his slot is perceived, while not self aware that its getting him into lynch bait territory. Example being that a player that clearly understands what there are doing is unpopular, but keeps on doing it means that that action isn't a reliable indication to their alignment. Here Tchill is aware that he is scum read, but doesn't truly grasp why. which is scummy.

Yeah people accuse me of pushing the LHF when in all honesty that's been me the whole game. I'd give a serious look into low content posters who have pushed me.

I'm not crazy about Tchill telling other people to look into his wason to sort the low content posters instead of doing it himself. However he moved on to look at some of them going off later votes. Though content rich cases, or attempts at real interactions would have been better then "vote and wait for reaction".

--
Not quoting all his read transitions but they are incredibly fluid. Which is surprising for newb scum. Even if the reads are kinda wonky and hard to follow.
--

I think that comment on assemble is valid. I haven't played too much with Ginngie. I feel like the scum read I'm getting from her is a mixture of lack of scum hunting and the fact I pushed her. From what I can tell if you push Ginngie she tunnels back. Limited experience with her though.

He isn't reading the game too closely. :/

---

Overall... I think I want more interaction with Tchill. (which may not happen before EoD unfortunately). I really hated the constent egocentric play, but I can't tell it its scum muddying the water as a defense, or if its a newb town habit. As much as it annoys me the read fiudlity really isn't something I'd expect from newbscum. If he could get his total thought processes down on paper the I think it would help me, and others sort him.

I think that Tchill has said and done some bad things, but I don't think he is irredeemably scummy. More importantly I think I can sort him with time. Therefore I won't support his lynch today.

[Grendel]

@Tchill

Stop being bad

Why? You get to see who reads into every slot versus the people that only push the easy scum read day 1 just to get by. I've got a lot of scummy tendencies because I really don't care how I'm viewed if I'm town I care about scum hunting and lynching scum. It's funny because the real problem with my scum game is I DO care how I'm seen, obviously, and that's such a change of pace for me it usually gets me lynched pretty quickly because I'm not playing comfortably.

It doesn't matter how much you say that you don't care how you are read. The constant --poking players that are scum reading you-- shows that you value how you are read. To add to that I think your self preservative tendencies this have been a problem. If you are town you need to stop playing like, “ItsNotMe ItsNotMe ItsNotMe ItsNotMe ItsNotMe,” if you could play and pretend that you’re the top town read then maybe you would become what you envision eh?

Or not lol. But At least you can say you tried!

Can you walk me through how you developed your top scum reads over time?

I'd also like to hear your thoughts on SunlitDimanad.

[Grendel]

Well I switched to preview mode and my text disappeared >.>

Basically me complaining about claims coming so close to EoD.
---
I do think claiming under a lot of pressure is not reflective of newb town power, which tends to be flightily and claim premature to when they need to. HOWEVER, since vigilante has a confirmable kill I'd welcome giving Tchill a shot at clearing himself tonight. Egro I think everybody on Tchill needs to get off him Asap.

@Vecna

If you are town you need to stop being obtuse and get off Tchill. Letting him confirm himself via a second night kill is proper play in this situation. At his point Tchill trying to prove himself through desscuion alone isn't necessary. We are running low on time so vote elsewhere.

[Grendel]

I haven't read past my last post on 23, or any of 24, but I saw that Vecna has cliam jk skiming this page.

I don't think lynching in the pr claims D1 is a good idea. I also don't think jailing the vig is a good idea. I'll look more at when/how Vecna claimed but most likely I'll be advocating a different lynch.

@Vecna

If you are that concerned about Scum fake claiming vig you should be pushing to get Tchill leashed for the reminder of the game, not threating to block him.

[Grendel]

Vecna, you have yet to even get L-1, let alone get intent to hammer. Why did you jump the PR claim gun?

You are dead wrong here. Assuming you are just saying this due to inexperience, and not because it offers you an opportunity to get on the wagon. I know from experience that town pr's are far more likely to claim prematurely with low/ little pressure. Exception being trolly players, and players known for gambits.

Think about it. If you were to roll a town power roll you _want_ to utlize you role for the benefit of town, you _know_ that your role is more valuable alive then dead. Therefore you don't want to be lynched. SO even if you claim too early at least you don't get lynched, and you can still make use of your ability for another night.

As scum you'd view making a fake claim solely as a means of extending your life. However, you recognize just how risky claiming a power role is. If you claim a already existing power, they'll counter claim and you die. If your Claim doesn't add up your previous actions you die. Fake claiming also means an increased chance that you die at mass claim if your role doesn't fir in the set up. So due to this You'd wait it out until you'd feel like there is nothing else you can do to prevent your lynch.

The idea that town will always wait until L-1 to claim is a mistake. Experianced confedant town wait until L-1, flightly/nervous/frustrated/newbie town will claim under low pressure.

[Grendel]

I'm eating dinner rn

Would point you towards Sunlit, maybe monkey. Assemble if you're down for a PL. Mt preference is Sunlit Diamond

I have some other thoughts to share when I get beack.

[Grendel]

I don't buy Vecna's claim and his tone from Ginngie is suspect. Also the timing of his claim is off and the way he wants to reveal his PR role is off.

If you jailkeep Tchill, how will that confirm either of you? At best, you confirm to Tchill that you can roleblock him. From the rest of our perspectives, that just means that nothing happens. I don't buy any of your performance for the last three pages.

Would you like me to respond to any particular point you made, Vecna? Otherwise, I don't feel like dignifying your bullshit flailing with any analysis.

Q: Okay guys, what specially about Venca's claim do you not believe is legitimate?

Alright I'm caught up finally; I flat don't believe Vecna's claim at all; literally nothing about the way he claimed is town and if he did have a confirmable pr I think he would be a fuck of a lot more indignant about being run up than he has been; the kind of survivalism that he's displayed in the claim is something that I think is far more likely to come from scum and what basically amounts to a sigh of regret in 555 isn't something that I find believable at all from a PR who knows that they can confirm themselves through night actions. Not interested in lynching anywhere else today; the claim aside I think he's completely flat tonally, I dislike his progressions, I dislike his votes, I dislike basically everything coming from that slot right now.

I disagree. I think the song and dance in regards to his claim was townie enough. I think that there is enough reasonable evidence there for me to believe his role cliam.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Vecna only had three votes on him when he claimed an ambiguous (but confirmable) power role right? What is survivlistic about that?

I think the way he entered with a scumread on me is pretty sketchy given that I think I've been pretty transparently town this game and was the only slot pushing him at that point in time; Civilization was months ago and I was a newbie and VI back then, absolutely no way I should be playing like that anymore - think if Vecna were town he would be pretty happy to see the development in my play rather than scumread me for it in the way that he has; pretty obvious difference I think in his treatment of that compared with the way monkey has been overall hesistant about it and has actually engaged with it critically overall - especially considering how recent my game with monkey was.

Sorry but this sound like an emotionally motivated reason to me. "He should be reading me like this, not like that," rarely leads to a successful scum lynch. Its basically meta reading gone wrong.

I talked to Grey about this in a game before he was banned on this form. He always ended up scum reading Alisae for personally motivated reasons that boiled down to not wanting to ever let Alisae one-up him. Even if his reasons sounded game related. I myself had a similar relationship to Gamma Emerald for a long time.

You scum read on Vecna, (at least this point), reminds me of that kind of mentality. Though its more disbelief that he is scum reading you for a meta shift, and an assumption that that is scummy. Which I think you are forgetting is that it sounds like Vecna hasn't played with you in a while, and probably thinks you are being too different for comfort.

Just... take a step back and think about it.

[Grendel]

Anyways, im also a town PR, with a skill that can be confirmed tonight. Good job ringing up another one with shit all reasoning.

Not gonna claim any more to not make it too easy on scum, you'll know more tomorrow.

In case you do end up lynching me - Kort & massive are scum here together. Lynch them next

By previously mentioned song and dance I mean Venca stating that he is a power role but not imeadatley full claiming. It looks surface level scummy. Buts actually not something scum are going to typically to do when fake claiming.

Mianly because, "Hey guys I'm a power role but I'm not going to full claim until tomorrow " Is an extremely unpopular method of approaching a claim, and therefore something scum would try to avoid. However town would do this if they had alter motives. In this instance Vecna planning the clear himself by jailing Tchill. While I think its not a great plan I do think that Vecna displaying that kind of strategic planning is moderately town like.

He also said something about a crumb?

@Venca

Shouldve read between the lines Gin - I left you a very obvious hint

Post your crumb plz

[Grendel]

Vecna, you have yet to even get L-1, let alone get intent to hammer. Why did you jump the PR claim gun?

You are dead wrong here. Assuming you are just saying this due to inexperience, and not because it offers you an opportunity to get on the wagon. I know from experience that town pr's are far more likely to claim prematurely with low/ little pressure. Exception being trolly players, and players known for gambits.

Think about it. If you were to roll a town power roll you _want_ to utlize you role for the benefit of town, you _know_ that your role is more valuable alive then dead. Therefore you don't want to be lynched. SO even if you claim too early at least you don't get lynched, and you can still make use of your ability for another night.

As scum you'd view making a fake claim solely as a means of extending your life. However, you recognize just how risky claiming a power role is. If you claim a already existing power, they'll counter claim and you die. If your Claim doesn't add up your previous actions you die. Fake claiming also means an increased chance that you die at mass claim if your role doesn't fir in the set up. So due to this You'd wait it out until you'd feel like there is nothing else you can do to prevent your lynch.

The idea that town will always wait until L-1 to claim is a mistake. Experianced confedant town wait until L-1, flightly/nervous/frustrated/newbie town will claim under low pressure.

Yes, I am newer to the game and definitely still learning the subtleties of how to play. All you said makes sense in a general sense EXCEPT that Vecna is neither a newbie nor appears particularly flighty or nervous. Frustrated, yes. But I don't think that overbalances the other. Therefore I don't think his actions make sense.

My kid has decided not to take a nap today, so I can't do the write up I meant to. I realize I've promised longer thoughts three times now and not delivered. I will do my damnedest after he's in bed tonight. -_-;

p-edit: Why, exactly, do you think I should be lynched?

I understand your kid probs. I live with a cousin who has Down Syndrome, and there are lots of times I'm stuck babysitting when I had other things I planed to do.

Eh Vecna's "Good job Town" line felt condescending and frustrated to me. Its entirely possible that he planted a fake claim as scum. I'm just stressing that that from my pov Venca is town in most worlds. So really not worth the D1 lynch gamble imo.

I touched brefly on my sr on you when I entered the game. I thought your interaction with regards to Robbnva and Eddie had lots of scum motives behind them. It was also that a lot of your posts, (I said 50% but that's an estimate), were focusing on those two players. So I thought you were hiding behind the noise they were making.

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Monkey

This place is stagnating. I don't know if I'll be here tomarrow, between Diamond and monkey I think Monkey is more viable.

Spoiler:

-Immediate assumption that any AtE is false or calculated. Scum!Monkey would see it as a opportunity to prevent players from spewing town. He could use is as a crutch in his reads due to the intangible nature of tone reading. The most likely is that he views calling out AtE as inhertintly pro-town thanks to "paranoia".

-He also had a lot to do with the early stages of Precy Vs Robb, but moved away from it over time. Possibly blame evasion.

-"But we're still friends dude," oddly shoehorned into disagreements, and situations where he calls people out. Comes across as too apologetic. Possibly a personality trait of his.

-Demonstrates typical scum model of High content early in the day, then laying low until required to push reads again.

Wow, raw unformatted thoughts on Monekey ripped straight from notes I took earlier today!

[Grendel]

@Tchill

Can you publicly submit a pool of players you intend to shoot in tonight?

Will make it easier to confirm your kill tomarrow.

[Grendel]

I have some homework to plow through tonight, but should be back here tomorrow.

I need to look at Monkey because he claimed... I guess? (I've only scanned through this thing over the night phase)

[Grendel]

Catching up tonight.

Super pinky promise.

[Grendel]

^Sunlit, This wave length we're on currently. I like it.

I'm almost caught up. But I have a question for Tchill if he is around.

@Tchill

Have you played a town aligned killing role in a previously competed game? If you have could you post a link?

[Grendel]

Grendel's reasons for scumreading me is bad. It's an attack to character more than anything. Like if you're gonna attack me for my character, he would have at least sat down to see my past games to confirm that. His reasons for scumreading me is NAI.

How was I attacking your character?

I think its abosultely rediculas how you had the gumption to dismiss all my points as an attack on your character. Yes, I made an assumption that your were lurking to further your win-con, and yes I think you were too apologetic. Its no different then what yourself did regarding the "Calculated AtE" arguments. You were making an assumption of another player's motivation for their actions. The fact that the problems where external to the game didn't stop you from questioning their legitimacy. But when other people question the legitimacy of your posts and what you are doing behind the screens that is an attack on your character?

I don't think so.

VOTE: Monkey

[Grendel]

I think that Moneky himself realizes that it was a crap reason to scum read me because he has barely mentioned me coming into today.

I could get if Monkey is the kind of player that doesn't belief in abstract thought, or taking outside circumstances into account. But his play is contrary to that. Saying things like "This target is town because wagoned scum would get deadline extension" is not what a strict hardliner would say.

Anyways, im also a town PR, with a skill that can be confirmed tonight. Good job ringing up another one with shit all reasoning.

Not gonna claim any more to not make it too easy on scum, you'll know more tomorrow.

In case you do end up lynching me - Kort & massive are scum here together. Lynch them next

By previously mentioned song and dance I mean Venca stating that he is a power role but not imeadatley full claiming. It looks surface level scummy. Buts actually not something scum are going to typically to do when fake claiming.

Mianly because, "Hey guys I'm a power role but I'm not going to full claim until tomorrow " Is an extremely unpopular method of approaching a claim, and therefore something scum would try to avoid. However town would do this if they had alter motives. In this instance Vecna planning the clear himself by jailing Tchill. While I think its not a great plan I do think that Vecna displaying that kind of strategic planning is moderately town like.

Monkey claiming an ambiguous role doesn’t work if it isn’t confirmable. Vwnca made sense to me because his belief that he was confirmable through his night action. Odds are that Monkey saw the above point I had on Vecna’s claim and thought he could pull it off as well. Plus his claim was less than 24 hours to lynch--- which is sketch.

[Grendel]

VOTE: assemblrr

I think that your hustle yesterday to get a lynch through resonates as moderately town. Which is good since you've been had to follow this game. Or should I say getting a read on?

Assembler is a nice rainy day vote, but can I know what do you think of Monkey?

[Grendel]

I really don't like the huge double standard korts had between monkey and vecna's claims.

I don't understand this argument. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Vecna claimed after a bunch of scummy shit, where he exploded all over the thread, threatened Tchill post-claim multiple times, desperately tried to lead the town away from his wagon, and constantly misrepresented any argument against him.

Then

he claimed, which to me looked like another clear diversion attempt after all the others had failed. It was a bogus claim, even if it turned out to be true.

monkey didn't explode like that, and although his claim was early, it was nearing deadline and his counterwagon was gaining steam. Admittedly, at that point I was on limited access and just trying to get a Vecna lynch to happen, so I wasn't reading thoroughly - but I don't remember any blatant scumminess from monkey before the claim.

I have a bunch of things to do in the following days, so the reread isn't coming before the weekend. Maybe I just missed something.

Monkey didn't claim early? The day was almost over, and there was zero set up reading between the lines.

A silly question, but humor me please.

What was the last game you played through to completion here?

With all the skim reading I notice he is being mentioned all but like... I don't care about him?

So that actually means he's likely scum for that reason.

He meaning Monkey?

Can you take a sec to format your posts more? >.>

[Grendel]

Just have me survive until Day 3 and we're good.

DH, that "you weren't reading" quote was a misquote. it was supposed to be TChill.

Also, I'm not targeting TChill. I'm sorting him. It's the easiest sort of the day since he's claimed vig but the problem is he didn't confirm the kill which is suspect.

Okay Monkey, I was top scum read of yours yesterday.

Why are you avoiding me today?

[quote="In post 839

A silly question, but humor me please. What was the last game you played through to completion here?

Last summer - Micro 623 was the first time I played since 2013. I joined another game this March, but quickly replaced out due to the spamposting.

Yes, I was in the Making Friends and enemies when you subbed out there.

Anyways, thanks. I have something to say, but I need to look at your iso first.

[Grendel]

Yo Gamma. You've now surpassed LUV as the player that has shared the same roster as me in the most games. For a while you guys were tied.

In other news I'm pro-doging for a day because I have a lot of interims due tomorrow for class. I need to get that done first.

[Grendel]

PEdit: that's kinda cool. BTW I think your advice about sticking to less games so I could apply myself is pretty good, I'm in a few games but I am mostly just playing around one game per site I play on. Only one that defies this is Mafia Universe and even then I'm in very few there due to game speed being faster. I thought it was going to be horrible but it's not too bad. Actually managed to mechanically break a game!

Does this also explain the catch up shift?

I don't think I've ever seen you do catch up in such a methodical manner. o.o

Ideally this will be a precursor that you'll be playing a more content rich game. Tbh a lot of the games we had together where you were active lurking wasn't fun for me. Maybe it will make you easier to sort as well.

[Grendel]

Reads at this point:
Town: Eddie, Robbnva, monkey
Leantown: Kaboose (Grendel), nancy
Nulltown: TChill, massive
Nullscum: Assembler
Leanscum: Aristophanes, Ginngie
Scum: Korts

Why is Moneky top town read for an interaction he made almost ten pages ago? Can you go back and justify this when you get caught up?

I'm really not feeling Monkey as town here.

This is pretty much the peak of the Percy wagon, then Tchill starts taking off on the next page. At this point of the reread, Robb is coming off as deliberately obtuse in pursuit of Percy's wagon, while monkey is enabling the bullshit. Tchill looks like he's sheeping massive. Out of all this, monkey's behavior is still the one making me most uncomfortable. I'm gonna keep reading tomorrow, but right now, I feel like I really shouldn't have let go of the monkey scum read so easily. Robb is the second scummiest in these first three pages, especially in connection with monkey.

Tomorrow, I will be examining the Tchill wagon's development.

I don't want to interrupt your catch up mind set, but Rob's day play is usually like that.

I won't requote what Others/I said previously, but I want a direct response to those points regarding Rob once you hit the in your read through.

However I do endorse any and all Monkey sheeps tho Korts. <3

Pre Edit

@Gamma

What do you think of Gingie's IC cliam?

I thought it was a stupid D1 gambit at first, but she doubled down on it recently. I'm not sure what to think if she does end up not being an IC. Anyways, for the time being I think she is not good lynch pool material.

[Grendel]

Korts feels like scum to me but can't really put it into words.

Eddie/korts/massive but so many others also. I really can't get into this game. Need a scum flip

Did you ever go back to read what others town reading have said about Eddie?

He is prob town, and you playing towards a personal ideal isn't going to change that.

[Grendel]

I'm really frustrated, and disappointed.

@Rob

If you are as unhappy, and care as little about the game as you claim to then just sub out. It doesn't matter if you're right or wroung about your reads. If you think that Eddie is subbing out because he was "scum read" then you are oblivious to what a crude and hurtful player you can be.

You have ten years of experience, and played over a hundred games of mafia collectively under your alt accounts. You know that town act irrational, you know town do crap they shouldn't, you standing by what you've justifying as a policy lynch when we are half way through D2 does nothing for the rest of us. Especially if Eddie is town.

If you are going to keep insisting on lynching the first scum read you delvoped this game I'm going to datamine as many of your games as I can and show how statistically bad you are at catching scum D1. Because operating under the premise that town wouldn't lie is utterly obtuse. I don't get how you can stand by the same principals when they have failed you more then they have validated you. It doesn't matter if its moraly right, correct, etc. I would love a game where town didn't play stupidly. However, that isn't how this game works Rob.

You're just not... helping here

I guess I'm being foolish right now as well since you've made it abundantly clear that you don't want to listen to other people. Just, If you can't reel it in, consider subbing out.

-Pre-edit

Exactly

[Grendel]

This kind of stuff makes me wonder why I play this game in the first place.

I'll try to check back in later, but if not then expect me to do content Friday.

Pre-edit

@Massive

Rob is stuck in an anti-town mind set, and interacting with him won't be of any use imo

[Grendel]

UNVOTE:

I've barely read anything yet, but I feel kind of lost so I guess I'll reassess myself

...after I get sleep

Pre-edit

I am confusion.

Hi confusion I'm dad

Don't really see a point in forming an opinion on Ginnige until D3 happens

[Grendel]

@Gamma

Grendel is Kaboose and I was happy voting Kaboose yesterday. Maybe a little dig into Grendel is in order.

I'm gonna stop you there. I know Grendel and I'm fairly certain he's town. Plus if I'm remembering right your reason for scumreading Kaboose may have been poor.

Since when have you town read me enough to hard defend me like this?

You hold some degree of suspicion towards me even when you town read me when you are town. Like, you think I'm town vs this game where you talk like you know I'm town.

Its gets even weirder since I'm explicitly not among your strong town reads.

Speaking of which, you never got around to better verbalizing your monkey town read did you?

-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-

@These two

So what if Rob is actually right on Eddie?

It really just sounds like a great way to discredit a person, I mean I haven't been reading but skimmin but for real, saying "dont listen he's just toxic" sounds like a great way to not address actual concerns.

Grendel is Kaboose and I was happy voting Kaboose yesterday. Maybe a little dig into Grendel is in order.

tbh I was expecting to come back to several pages of Rob rehashing the same points on eddie to the same audience. Ultimately leading to nothing getting done. Which was why I was discouraging any more Rob poking at that point. Like focusing in on one player (voice, vote, everything), while controlling discussion can be very anti-town. It turned out that he did make/address new points regarding several players so I was wroung there.
-/-/-/-/-/-

@Monkey

#993
"Because operating under the premise that town wouldn't lie is utterly obtuse."
Grendel, why do you assume that it's Robb's reason for tunnelling Eddie?

Speaking generally Rob catches a player in a lie early in the game and pushes that their scum until dead, or being mechanically proven otherwise. Which means that it all circles back to that initial interaction between Rob and the other player. No matter what Rob says down down the road I know that certain reads Rob gets early D1 are basically "set", and he'll observe the game from that perspective regardless what others say or do.

Spoiler:

it is ironic that Robb first said he would not death tunnel on PS, and then totally did just that.

Yes my plan wasn't to death tunnel but when a player blatantly lies about me I can't help but want them dead.

The bragging about RC wasn't meant to be bragging, it's more of the point that people want to excuse people's early posts in rvs because it's rvs and it is possible to trip somebody up and catch them.

I can't remember who said it here but somebody described ps in a way that i completely agrees with. She wanted to look like she was participating in rvs by trying to come up with a reason. It looked awkward and unnatural to me. Then to balk at my question and basically say "dude it's rvs" she completely negates everything. It's not a reaction I really see coming from town. I could see a n00b scum reacting like that though.

Aside from that. Now she's just in full omgus mode. Voting me for voting her. I don't see her really attempting to scum hunt or sort other people. It's clear my suspicion of her is genuine so she can't (and nobody can) really think I'm scum here. She's done legitimately scummy things and needs rope imo.

Town!Rob could very well have caught scum with their pants down at the start of the game, but I'm not convinced that is the case here.

[Grendel]

@Gamma

Does Monkey remind you of my play in newbi 1734? Maybe even a tad?

@Massive

Are you town reading Gamma/Sunlit?

@Korts

Whats you read on Monkey Currently?

You said that Massive is being too proactive to lynch today, why does pro-active mean town?

Are you scum reading Assemble, or is this PL?

[Grendel]

I'll do a town case on Eddie/Persphoney/Replacement when I get back later.

[Grendel]

Reasons that I think Percy/Eddie/Vedith is town

Spoiler:

-The first player to receive heavy pressure, (and wagoned to L-2/1), is statistically more likely to be town. In the early game where there is little to go on any points or votes are acceptable to go on. Acceptable to the point that scum can vote whoever with out fear of compromising town cred. Thanks to this scum are less likely to vote another buddy since there is no real town cred to be gleaned there. In instances where scum will RVS each other they are quick to move to another wagon since their is low incentive to distance so soon into the game. Beyond the lowered likelihood of scum distancing their is also a reduced restanice to town getting wagoned in RVS. Scum realize they can't be held accountable, and town are completely blind/dumb/helpless with nothing to go on.

This is only the case for the first player the gets seriously wagon, and its accuracy is rendered null if the first real wagon of the game happens outside of RVS. I tend to think of it as, "X player is now less likely to flip scum then a random lynch with no player control"

-I also think that Eddies flippant interactions that occuasrred when he subbed in, and were maintained quite a while, are more likely to come from town then not. I don't know for certain the strength of his scum game but that sort of play is hard to fake.

-I recall that he was present to help prevent a no lynch a the EoD1. Which was town regardless what Assemble would have flipped there.

-Noise with Rob was totally justifiable, and more interesting is that Eddie could have chosen to keep digging in, or could have defensively kept back entirely. From what I saw Eddie waffled quite a bit over D2 on Rob when I think scum would have chosen and stuck to one road.

Rob made decent a point about how Eddie said he wouldn't lynch Vacna, then totally switched a couple posts later. But that's more likely general bad play then scummy bad. Since scum wouldn't want to contradict themselves its more likely that Eddie!scum had an oversight. Like I don't think town realize how often other town get their reads mixed up, forget a point on somebody, don't realize outside implications of what they just said.

I'm not as 100% on Town Eddie/Precy as I was early in the game, but no, I'm not down for Vedith scum. There are much better lynches out there.

[Grendel]

Yea... I wasn't wanting to go into compromise mode when its D2, but like, this has felt more like D1 2.0 then anything

@Gamma

I have an admittedly poor track record when reading you. So I think that for the time being I should ignore the pings, and try to sort you through more interaction. I think that pushing for competing wagons is good play, but I don't nesserarly think its a town tell, and I don't think that play is as useful or difficult to implement as it would have been mid/end day. Also while Monkey mentioned it on the onset, encouraging a 1v1 between two emotionally charged players is bad mojo for town morale. It should have been apparent this was the case before things went as far as they did.

I'm willing to retract my thoughts that Monkey was reminiscent to my scum game it newbie 1734. I thought his catch up was a lot more middle of the road then it was. I also noticed he did take the time to interact with current events while catching up. Where as I used catch up as something to hide behind while town self cannibalized. You said that you had some scum meta on Monkey, can you do a comparison/contrast to this game?

I'm still trying to get used to your play style shift this game.
-/-/-/-

Actually, nancy has been in a similar situation too. Its weird seeing her do walls. After thinking it over last night I'd say that her lack of playfulness/enthusiasm is probably town if that T&B game is reliable scum!nancy meta.
-/-/-/-

Looking forward to Titus content.

[Grendel]

Spoiler:

Town!Rob could very well have caught scum with their pants down at the start of the game, but I'm not convinced that is the case here.

What makes you think that it wasn't the case?

I already answered this by explaining why I thought that slot was town. I also explained that Rob would always be scum reading that slot because his first scum read is near permanent, making that read technically only as accurate as any other read formed during RVS.

Does Monkey remind you of my play in newbi 1734? Maybe even a tad?

I'm just gonna address this line of logic from this post. Acknowledge that I've read your build up.

When has it been the proper way to read someone based on someone else's (or yours) meta? If you're grasping straws here, better grasp the right straws because at least you were going somewhere in your previous cases against me. Here, you just look like you're confbiasing hard. If you tell me this isn't at least influenced by confbias, you're either scum digging my grave or delusional town. Or I'm not seeing an angle here that your reply might shine light on.

CATCH-UP EDIT: Okay thanks for retracting but why did you pursue that line of thought in the first place.

Its not proper/improper play to use previous experiences to form reads on other players. As habit I'll compare players I don't know to how I play, or perhaps how this site plays. You kno, meta stuff. Its not an objectively good or bad tactic as I've seen cases where it worked for, and against me.

I explained in the post you acknowledged but didn't quote that I thought your play here resembled mine there. Then I went on to explain why I dropped it. I think its really odd that you'd prep this point by saying that you've gone out of your way to meta me, then accuse me of doing something I do typically.

The first player to receive heavy pressure, (and wagoned to L-2/1), is statistically more likely to be town.

So this is how the wiki-definition of IIOA looks like in-play. Huh. Anyway, I don't agree with it and you using it as an argument is suspect.

That doesn't even qualify as IIOA? What?

If you disagree you're free to datamine completed games, but I'm telling you that the first Wagon in RVS to get lots of pressure is more likely town then scum. I've been using that tell for several games now, and its yet to fail me.

This and the "grasping at strews" are clearly attempts at deriding my credibility as a player.

I also think that Eddies flippant interactions that occuasrred when he subbed in, and were maintained quite a while, are more likely to come from town then not.

What did you think was the optimal scum play going in? Mine's attack the attacker.

Partipate in a way that is going to be perceived as conventionally town like for the site meta. Garner as much town cred as possible D1. Lurk until required to do town looking things again.

I recall that he was present to help prevent a no lynch a the EoD1. Which was town regardless what Assemble would have flipped there.

Based on this, do you agree that people there are more likely to be town that not?

I think that Eddie's and Ginngie's EoD1 play resonated fairly town for it. I wouldn't say the same for you my friend.

Also while Monkey mentioned it on the onset, encouraging a 1v1 between two emotionally charged players is bad mojo for town morale.

I don't know how that could be alignment-indicative? Also, it's not as if it was a deliberate nuclear strike on my part because I didn't know how "emotionally-charged" Percy and Robb can get. Also, I thought it was the best way to get us out of RVS. Like you said, it wasn't apparent that it was the case and it's not like I'm Bran Stark.

Why wouldn't scum want town drama? It distracts town, wastes time, and town ignorance can make adding fuel to the fire come at low risk. Even more so when its that early in the game.

It can be hard to make that call. Especially when you don't know one player or both the players. I seem to recall a lot of discomfort on Perphonies part that looked like a personal frusteration. She was dragged over the course of seven+ pages for a lol cow post and RVS vote. Rob's trying demeanor would get more drawn out over time, though I think his vote sitting habit was quickly established.

Maybe you honestly didn't expect things to keep going. But from my PoV I thought it was apparent that the 1v1 was going nowhere.

Questions one didn't need to be asked. Two, and three, are scummy bad and wouldn't help him get a read on me. Four is non-AI info, the last two pass as legitimate points with questions. Fluff ratio of 3:1.

Maybe my impression that Monkey is overcompensating by big posting wasn't incorrect. I could look at his over questions I guess. I skimmed until I saw he asked me things.

[Grendel]

I do see what you are talking about in your first paragraph. The interactions between the two slots did get vitriolic because of that one v one. In the second paragraph I see what you meant and yeah I didn't see anything that felt middle-of-the-roadish to me. I don't really agree that interacting in the present is a big town indicator. For me it's something I commonly do, and something I decided to not do here as I've noted it becomes detrimental at times, specifically in Real Folk Blues it kept me from reading through at a decent speed.
So, other than monkey, where are your reads at? I mostly want to see who you are considering lynching as we get close to deadline.
I'll do the monkey scumgame analysis soonish.

There is some flux in my null reads, and idk where third scum would be because I've been too strapped for time to do associative diving. Tho given how poorly it had worked in the past it might be for the best that I put that off until a scum flip happens.

nancy, Vedith,

Ginngie, Gamma,

Dark Horse, Korts, Robbnva, Tchill13,

Titus,

massive, Monkey

I almost want to Tchill because of this EoD lurk he has going on while pushing the lynch that hasn't formed a viable counter wagon. I'd advocate lynching him tomorrow if he doesn't make that second kill tonight. Lol @ me if I hard defended gambiating scum D1.

Titus predesser did nothing, and with exception to EoD1 has flown under the radar. I'd prefer to not lynch her outside of last minute compromise. From what I've heard Math say Titus's town game is stronger then her scum game. And I know from first hand experience that Titus is strong as scum!

Massive is hard to explain. I didn't find anything about him town per say. I didn't like how he threatened to scum read me for discrediting Rob's play. Then how he backed off because you told him to. I didn't like that interaction at all even if he is town reading you. It seems like he was too easy to convince there.

[Grendel]

VOTE: Monkey

Can one of Gingie/Tchill move over here?

I really don't want Vedith as our only choice at EoD.

@Game Replacement, nancy & Gamma

Help me lynch Monkey/Massive! I'll support either!

[Grendel]

Working with my town reads is one of my strongest weapons, so I'm curious why that would be especially scummy. How much resistance should I have shown?

That's not necessarily tied to this situation. Like working with another player=/= Dismissing your own reads. More over the speed that you moved back was unnaturally fast.

A more realistic reaction would have been to ask Gamma why he thinks I'm town. Compared to just taking his word for it.

[Grendel]

Also what is wrong with this town?!

Almost nothing has happened here since deadline extension and we are getting close to the final 24 hours. I don't know if I will be able to get on tomorrow so this basically feels like deadline today for me.

@nancy & Vedith

I need you guys to vote in your next post.

[Grendel]

Lol, has over half the original roster subbed out at this point?

@Math & Drixx

Excited to get to play with you both. Its been awhile since I'd done anything mafia related with either of you.

Since there is another extension I'll come back in the morning to catch up fully. As of right now I'm happy with Monkey wagon.

[Grendel]

I didn't target Tchill.

[Grendel]

What do you see Gamma?

[Grendel]

I've fallen behind in my Graphic design classes and will be on V/LA for a few days while I get caught up.

[Grendel]

I've been hearing conflicting reports about the weather. So I don't know if I'm getting hit, nicked, or missed.

[Grendel]

@All

I'm not caught up yet But:

Ginngie seems to be claiming watcher in a scenario where one mislynch will win the game for mafia. Let's note that watcher and cop are both powerful investigatives. It's highly unlikely we're seeing both even with the cop having a nerf.

Wouldn't it make more sense for a townie to think they were in lylo at this point then scum would?

Also Gamma's realization/revelation tied to a separate game felt like something Gamma!town would pick up on.

@Math

Gamma's responses to the PR claims are notably different than Rematch and he seems more interested in shading Ginngie than asking questions or finding out the truth. Him being shaken up could be shocked. Gamma's comment about Watcher cop reads like someone who knows too much or is complaining about setup balance for scum. She didn't claim Watcher. This sounds like Gamma rolecopped or guessed.

Can you expand on this meta?

[Grendel]

Gingie is definitely town.

I think should nancy go ahead and full claim. With three big prs dead it should be easy to sus out how if nancy is legit via a claim.

I'll come back tonight and read the last few pages. I'm currently not feeling a Gamma lynch.

[Grendel]

I didn't Target TChill.
But this rings oddly familiar. Grendel and nancy I ask you to recall the first trustthedeceived game.

This is the first point with a spin.

Gamma Emerald shades my claim by referring to a scum game I played on a different sight where I hastily claimed a guilty on a player for the win in LyLo.

THIS IS okay to think because a guilty in LyLo is always sus, however it was pointed out by massive and Gamma acknowledged this point, that it was not MyLo.

Except I don't see a reason for scum Gamma to pretend to believe that it was lylo to throw shade at you when doing so would look hecka stupid, and undermine Gamma's credibility on the game state.

I think that Gamma not getting the game state right is more likely come from town. At worst its just null.

so with me obviously not doing what I did before, the scum read expressed here:

Honestly I'm kinda shaken up now. Ginngie might actually be my top scumread for now. Still townread you and GR, but I'm feeling doubtful on Math.

Makes no literal sense.

It also doesn't make sense to scumread a player who basically has a guilty outside of MyLo

.

After reading the provided references for the gambit I saw that scum reactions had more to do with the gambiter encouraging other players to claim. With scum accusing the gambiter of role fishing. Gamma's reaction this game was to question your claim itself. He didn't attack you for role fishing like the quoted scum were doing. I agree that scumreading a player with a guilty before lylo is bad. My experience with players suspecting a claimed power role with a guilty is that its usally town error. Though it appears that you're believing otherwise based on Froot's example.

This gambit has only been tried three times right?

[Grendel]

@Gamma

Get back in the game and defend yourself.

@Massive

The burden of role madness games -- everyone starts depending on the roles.

I'm guessing this is a joke?

[Grendel]

Grendel could you talk about where your reads are at with humeaneatingmonkey flipping town please? If you don't have time to talk about all of them then maybe pick ~2-3 that feel most important to you? Your progression on me/Robbnva in particular is something I don't really understand; I'd like to know what changed between 1133 where you seem to have a pretty tentative townread on me and 1152 where I'm your top townread and just your earlier treatment of Robbnva in general where it looks like you're townreading him but have him as a nullread (?) once you put out a readslist.

I thought Rob was town for a while, then I saw he really does retain the same playstle as both alignments. I'd read several of his town games a while back and never checked out is scum games until the middle of this game. Part of my posts later were done with the intention of getting him to stop pushing the same bad case since D1, which I would have attempted regardless what I thought his alignment was.

You were a read based off of your tone+posting style being such a 180 from my experience with scum you. There was a lot of flux in my reads so you/Vedith/Gingie/Gamma were literally the only town reads I had any confidence in. I thought that my reasoning for you/Vedith was the most cut and dry for me with less worlds where scum ya'll exists.

I am reconsidering you currently because I do think that I may have been too hasty to find trusts to work with in a game state where lots of players were not working together.

[Grendel]

Interesting. Grendel why are you trying to sus out if I'm legit when I am/was your top townread? Has your read on me changed since 1152? Why is Ginngie definitely town and why are you asking MathBlade about her meta if you're already convinced of that?

If you could go back and respond to 1329 that would be pretty helpful; if you disagree with my read there I'd like it if you talk about why and what your own read there is in as much detail as you're willing to go into. Gamma Emerald was scum in Kingdom Hearts and made the same kind of meta connection there; I don't think forgetting that it's not LyLo is a particularly good reason for a townread even if you do think that he legitimately forgot.

Why shouldn't I try to sort people via set up when its easy and effective? Why assume that I have the same read on you that I had days ago?

I don't think that scum would play a gambit of that scale... normally. I Especially think her rethoric her rhetoric after coming out was very proud, and enthusiastic. Which imo is coming from town having an "aha" moment.

I want to hear Meth's meta on Gamma so I can compare it for myself. You can give me your meta on Gamma in kingdom hearts too, if you please.

[Grendel]

tbh it feels like ppl keep ignoring me.

@Ginngie

Did you read my points on Gamma?

@Math

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71688&user_select[]=28404

Meta I am referring to for Gamma.

And on Kingdom hearts respectfully not reading it. Gamma is a hyper poster. By the time I read all that my brain would be mush.

oof, that's a lot to go through. I'll look at it soon though.

Did Gamma handle claims throughout the game, or was there a point of significance you could direct me too?

@Massive

n/m I see what your point was when you made that statement.

I have another question, do you believe that nancy isn't really a pr?

@Lime

Your notes are hard to read. Can you pull the quotes most relevant to your current reads?

[Grendel]

I kinda thought you were a power role Massive, with how you honed onto nancy's cliam. I was hoping you could keep it under wraps until later since we've had literally no aid from town's power at night this game. Sorry I was too late to back you up, and you felt you had to claim to get nancy lynched. :/

I guess on the bright side this means I don't have to work to get anybody to listen to me for once.

VOTE: nancy

massive,

Gamma Emerald, Ginngie,

PenguinPower

Drixx, MathBlade,

lime, nancy

-/-/-/-/-/-

Massive stands to gain nothing from 1 v 1ing another softed power role, and he claimed on his own volition under no pressure. I don't see a way Massive is scum in this situation barring some very left field theories.

I don't think that nancy handles a slot the way she handled Gamma earlier, and moreover I agree that Gamma being the only wagon today is very questionable.

Drixx is a toss up for me because for a while I thought that Korts might be a red herring. Ei a player scum read for playstle vs their actually motivations. after putting the slot off for a while it seems that their really isn't anything town like I recall from the slot. I'm too busy to check their isos right now, but I will look into it.

Math's play today has been pretty scummy. Nothing about Gamma has been obscum fmpov, and seeing Math insist that he has been doesn't jive with me. It looks like over compensation. The point that Massive calling the game a role maddness is a scum slip also doesn't seem believable. My only qualm is that I think that in this sutiantion Math would be bussing nancy instead of pushing a mislynch on Gamma. The scum Math I remember likes to bus a lot. I guess that this would call into question Gamma's legitimacy, I'll have to consider that bridge when I come to it.

Lime and his predecessor have flown under the radar this game. This may be due to how Dark horse played up to my own thoughts on the game state intentionally or not (If dark hourse was purposely echoing me then wow, he really got inside me head). Lime doing little to push or poke outside of his recently competeled catch-up, and his handling Gamma/nancy aren't good. Scum also tend to leave in drop points vs proactively use points they've already made in the thread. Example here being how I asked Lime to explain they reads in a more cohesive manner, and they're response was that I should find it myself.

nancy avoiding my questions about claim at this stage were bad, her taking my town read on her for granted until I start questioning her slot is worse, her getting positively counterclaimed seals the deal.

-/-/-/-/-

I'd be lying if I said I'm wholly positive that the team is all in nancy, Lime, Math/Drixx. I do think that there is a chance that Penguin could be the final scum. I'm not prepared to jump away from my original tells, yet I'm not even sure why I was town reading eddie so hard outside of that specific reason.

Outside of him I would be very surprised to learn any of Massive/Gamma/Gingie were scum based off today's interactions alone.

[Grendel]

^Reads aren't static, you of all people should know that nancy. You haven't questioned me at all until I stopped town reading you, and that is scummy behavior. Also considering that counter claim action that happened last page it really doesn't make sense to believe that massive is scum with you, same goes for Gingie.

I hard claim vanilla townie.

[Grendel]

@Lime

Spoiler:

I don't think that nancy handles a slot the way she handled Gamma earlier, and moreover I agree that Gamma being the only wagon today is very questionable.

Math's play today has been pretty scummy. Nothing about Gamma has been obscum fmpov, and seeing Math insist that he has been doesn't jive with me. It looks like over compensation. The point that Massive calling the game a role maddness is a scum slip also doesn't seem believable. My only qualm is that I think that in this sutiantion Math would be bussing nancy instead of pushing a mislynch on Gamma. The scum Math I remember likes to bus a lot. I guess that this would call into question Gamma's legitimacy, I'll have to consider that bridge when I come to it.

Lime and his predecessor have flown under the radar this game. This may be due to how Dark horse played up to my own thoughts on the game state intentionally or not (If dark hourse was purposely echoing me then wow, he really got inside me head). Lime doing little to push or poke outside of his recently competeled catch-up, and his handling Gamma/nancy aren't good. Scum also tend to leave in drop points vs proactively use points they've already made in the thread. Example here being how I asked Lime to explain they reads in a more cohesive manner, and they're response was that I should find it myself.

I'd be lying if I said I'm wholly positive that the team is all in nancy, Lime, Math/Drixx. I do think that there is a chance that Penguin could be the final scum. I'm not prepared to jump away from my original tells, yet I'm not even sure why I was town reading eddie so hard outside of that specific reason.

Outside of him I would be very surprised to learn any of Massive/Gamma/Gingie were scum based off today's interactions alone.

This post is wrong on so many levels that I don't even know

where

to begin. I'm at a loss for words as far as my gimmick goes because I don't have any clever quip prepared for this level of wrongness. I'm not going to call the whole post a steaming pile of shit because there are parts to it that are fine (which I have edited out). But nothing you've said in here is accurate.

nancy absolutely does handle a partner the way she handled Gamma. Gamma Emerald was the main wagon because he's just that obvious scum.
In spite of us having a hard guilty on nancy I'd even still be willing to lynch Gamma for this very reason; I guarantee you he does not flip town here. The most scummy aspect of Mathblade's play is how there hasn't been anything scummy in Mathblade's play. They bleed town every step of the way and that's the closest thing to a warning sign possible from their play this game. Even there I have doubts. And for the record the meta is backwards. Mathblade doesn't bus much. (They do but only when it's unavoidable.)

I have engaged everyone who has engaged me, the polar opposite of flying under the radar. If people decide not to engage me, that's on them not me. Dark Horse not playing the game might have something to do with how he site flaked. I may not have done much outside of my recently-completed catch-up, but that was a RECENT event so what more would I be asked to do? I've done more in the last couple of days for this game (spending at least five consecutive hours reading every page) than over half the players have in a full week.

I also did not tell you to find it yourself. I simply told you to reframe your question in a way I understand. Because you asked of me something I

don't

really get. You asked me to pull the most relevant quotes. I told you I can't do that because none are more relevant; everything's important. So I asked you to reframe the question into something I WOULD get. You choosing not to do so is on YOU. Not me.

massive and Ginngie are easy townreads sure enough and townreading Eddie Cane is likely a mistake so it is a mistake to believe the team is three of nancy/Lime/Math/Drixx (the maximum would be two but even that I sincerely doubt), but the handling of it is just awful. I don't even think it's scum, but I am immensely displeased because this kind of thinking I feel will directly lead to a town loss.

Having trouble formatting but:

1)I've always seen and heard nancy being anti-bus, therefore seeing her get on that wagon when he (Gamma) was almost certainly getting lynched is not behavior I expected for nancyxGamma team.

2)Likewise once played in a game where Math wholly endorsed bussing as a scum tactic. If their meta has shifted away from bussing then I was unaware of it.

3) By flying under the radar I mean Dark horse's tendency to post enough meaningful content to check list their way through the game. I think that you are in a similar situation where you post enough to not get PoE'd, and that's all you are interested in. I do think that you are reactive instead of active. Outside of the catch up your posts have been answers to questions for you, and responses to people opinions on you.

4)That was how I felt the encounter went down. I'll take the time to marrow to look at

all

the cross references in your catch up. Expect me run to you with questions every time I don't get how a specific post is Ai, or Ai in the way you think it is. I also don't buy that you can't explain it, if you had a strong enough feeling to reference it then you should be able to defend "why" as town imo.

5) I don't see how my hypothetical scum team is awful.

[Grendel]

@Lime

apologies, of the posts you've made thus far the only one that is "reactive" in the sense I put it in was your response to me. I guess you really haven't been around enough to evaluate your posting habits.

I operate a lot from the notes I take, and thoughts I get away from the screen due to time constraints. So sometimes I make dumb oversights like this.

[Grendel]

@Drixx

Spoiler:

Thanks for your graciousness with everything going on with the hurricane and family and stuff. My folks have some damage, but nowhere near what they would have had the storm gone inland at the Tampa/St. Pete area as expected. They likely wouldn't have a house anymore in that case. Things were pretty crowded and they left me the gift of some kind of flu-like virus, but they're home safely now and I'm good.

Nancy has been exceptionally wily in my few experiences with her. I would appreciate if someone who knows her better could pipe up on what to look for in her posts to try and find her team. I'm a little weirded out by how her lynch happened also. I'm fairly sure she could have talked herself out of it, but she didn't seem to give a whole lot of effort to that end. Why would scum!nancy roll over like that?

Ginngie pinged a little bit with the comment about x-shot not fitting in the setup. Hindsight shows that nancy was faking, but I don't see why or how that conclusion was reached.

I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.

There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.


So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?

Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.

So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.

Glad that you and your family came out safely from the hurricane and its aftermath.

I think most these thoughts were well established with the flip.

So the question is, who do you think nancy was protecting?

@Gingie

just realized we are not in Mylo lmao

That's pretty ironic.

Wasn't him "faking" not knowing it wasn't lylo one of the reasons you started tunneling Gamma?

@Math

Would also be down for a Grendel lynch too. Like nancy Grendel Gamma obvTeam

That doesn't make a lot of sense.

You keep emphasizing things as obvious yet I don't think you've said anything compelling enough to recall off hand.

@Lime

Spoiler: Playerlist Reference

Drixx/Korts
Ginngie
Game Replacement/Eddie Cane/PersephoneSidekick
Gamma Emerald/Sunlit Diamond/Draynth
MathBlade/Robbnva
Grendel/Kaboose
lime in da coconut/Dark Horse

nancy

Vecna/Aristophanes
Titus/Assemblerotws
Tchill13
humaneatingmonkey
massive

Spoiler: Votecounts Reference

PersephoneSidekick (4): Kaboose,

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Robbnva
Robbnva (3): PersephoneSidekick,

massive

,

Tchill13

Aristophanes

(2): Draynth, Korts

humaneatingmonkey

(1):

Ginngie

massive

(1):

Aristophanes

Not Voting:

Assemblerotws

,

nancy

Tchill13

(3):

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts
PersephoneSidekick (2): Kaboose, Robbnva

humaneatingmonkey

(2):

Ginngie

,

Assemblerotws

,
Robbnva (1): PersephoneSidekick

Aristophanes

(1): Sunlight Diamond
Kaboose (1):

massive

massive

(1):

Aristophanes

Not Voting:

nancy

,

Tchill13

Tchill13

(4):

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts, Sunlight Diamond
Robbnva (2): PersephoneSidekick,

Assemblerotws

,

Aristophanes

(2):

Ginngie

,

Tchill13

PersephoneSidekick (2): Kaboose, Robbnva
Kaboose (1):

massive

massive

(1):

Aristophanes

Not Voting:

nancy

Tchill13

(4):

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts, Sunlight Diamond
Robbnva (2): Eddie Cane,

Assemblerotws

,

Aristophanes

(2):

Ginngie

,

Tchill13

massive

(2):

Aristophanes

, Robbnva
Kaboose (1):

massive

Not Voting:

nancy

, Kaboose

Tchill13

(4):

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts, Sunlight Diamond
Robbnva (2):

Assemblerotws

, Eddie Cane

Aristophanes

(2):

Ginngie

,

nancy

massive

(1):

Aristophanes

Kaboose (1):

massive

Eddie Cane (1): Robbnva

Ginngie

(1):

Tchill13

Not Voting: Kaboose

Tchill13

(4):

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts,

Ginngie

Robbnva (3):

Assemblerotws

, Eddie Cane, Sunlight Diamond

Aristophanes

(2):

nancy

,

Tchill13

massive

(1):

Aristophanes

Grendel (1):

massive

Eddie Cane (1): Robbnva
Not Voting: Grendel

Tchill13

(4):

Dark Horse

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts,

Ginngie

Robbnva (3):

Assemblerotws

, Eddie Cane, Sunlight Diamond

Vecna

(2):

nancy

,

Tchill13

massive

(1):

Vecna

Grendel (1):

massive

Not Voting: Grendel, Robbnva

Vecna

(4):

nancy

,

Tchill13

,

Ginngie

, Korts,
Robbnva (2):

Assemblerotws

, Sunlight Diamond
Sunlit Diamond (1): Grendel

Ginngie

(1): Eddie Cane
Grendel (1):

massive

Korts (1):

Vecna

Not Voting: Robbnva,

humaneatingmonkey

,

Dark Horse

I'm presuming the mass exodus from the Tchill wagon is a result of Tchill claiming (and presumably also why Tchill died last night).

Vecna

(4):

nancy

,

Tchill13

,

Ginngie

, Korts

humaneatingmonkey

(2): Grendel, Sunlit Diamond
Robbnva (1):

AssemblerotwsD

massive

(1): Eddie Cane
Eddie Cane (1):

humaneatingmonkey

Grendel (1):

massive

Korts (1):

Vecna

Not Voting: Robbnva,

Dark Horse

Assemblerotws

(6):

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

,

Ginngie

,

Dark Horse

, Sunlit Diamond, Eddie Cane

Vecna

(2):

Tchill13

, Korts

humaneatingmonkey

(2): Grendel,

Vecna

Robbnva (1):

AssemblerotwsD

Grendel (1):

massive

Not Voting: Robbnva

Obviously this was a failed deadline rush wagon but I need the context for why it was Assemblerotws (who had zero votes in the previous votecount) rather than Vecna, humaneatingmonkey, or for that matter the vanity wagons of the time (Robbnva/massive/Eddie Cane/Grendel/Korts). Did Vecna claim? Did humaneatingmonkey claim?

humaneatingmonkey

(2):

Dark Horse

, Sunlit Diamond
Eddie Cane (2):

Tchill13

, Robbnva

Tchill13

(2):

massive

,

Assemblerotws

Assemblerotws

(1):

Ginngie

Not Voting:

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Eddie Cane, Grendel, Korts

Tchill13

(4):

massive

,

Assemblerotws

, Eddie Cane, Korts

humaneatingmonkey

(3):

Dark Horse

, Sunlit Diamond, Grendel
Eddie Cane (2):

Tchill13

, Robbnva

Assemblerotws

(1):

Ginngie

Not Voting:

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

humaneatingmonkey

(4):

Dark Horse

, Sunlit Diamond, Grendel, Eddie Cane

Tchill13

(2):

massive

,

Assemblerotws

Eddie Cane (1): Robbnva

Assemblerotws

(1):

Ginngie

Korts (1):

Tchill13

Not Voting:

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts

Korts (2):

Tchill13

, Gamma Emerald
Robbnva (2): Eddie Cane, Korts

humaneatingmonkey

(2):

Dark Horse

, Grendel

Tchill13

(2):

massive

,

Assemblerotws

Eddie Cane (1): Robbnva

Assemblerotws

(1):

Ginngie

Not Voting:

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

Eddie Cane (3): Robbnva,

Ginngie

,

Tchill13

humaneatingmonkey

(2):

Dark Horse

, Grendel

Tchill13

(2):

massive

,

Assemblerotws

Korts (1): Gamma Emerald
Robbnva (1): Eddie Cane
Not Voting:

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

, Korts

Game Replacement(4): Robbnva,

Ginngie

,

Tchill13

,

humaneatingmonkey

Tchill13

(2):

massive

,

Titus

humaneatingmonkey

(1):

Dark Horse

Korts (1): Gamma Emerald
Robbnva (1): Eddie Cane

Titus

(1): Korts
Not Voting:

nancy

, Grendel

Game Replacement(2):

Tchill13

,

humaneatingmonkey

Tchill13

(2):

massive

,

Titus

humaneatingmonkey

(2):

Dark Horse

, Grendel
Mathblade (2): Eddie Cane,

Ginngie

Titus

(2): Drixx, Gamma Emerald

nancy

(1): Mathblade
Not Voting:

nancy

Titus

(6): Gamma Emerald,

nancy

,

Ginngie

,

Tchill13

, Mathblade,

humaneatingmonkey

humaneatingmonkey

(3):

Dark Horse

, Grendel, Drixx

Tchill13

(2):

massive

, Game Replacement
Not Voting:

Titus

Here the question becomes why Titus was the deadline-rush wagon rather than Game Replacement or Mathblade (or I suppose the nancy vanity wagon). Also, because I'm using this as a reference I want to have the failed D1 deadline rush VC quoted right next to this one for ease-of-comparison.

Assemblerotws

(6):

nancy

,

humaneatingmonkey

,

Ginngie

,

Dark Horse

, Sunlit Diamond, Eddie Cane

Vecna

(2):

Tchill13

, Korts

humaneatingmonkey

(2): Grendel,

Vecna

Robbnva (1):

AssemblerotwsD

Grendel (1):

massive

Not Voting: Robbnva

Gamma Emerald (1): Mathblade
Not Voting: Gamma Emerald,

nancy

,

Ginngie

,

Dark Horse

, Grendel, Drixx,

massive

, Game Replacement

Gamma Emerald (4): Mathblade,

Ginngie

,

nancy

,

lime in da coconut

nancy

(1):

massive

Not Voting: Gamma Emerald, Grendel, Drixx, Game Replacement

Gamma Emerald (4): Mathblade,

Ginngie

,

nancy

,

lime in da coconut

nancy

(1):

massive

Not Voting: Gamma Emerald, Grendel, Drixx, PenguinPower

Gamma Emerald (3): Mathblade,

Ginngie

,

nancy

nancy

(3):

massive

, Grendel,

lime in da coconut

Not Voting: Gamma Emerald, Drixx, PenguinPower

I honestly think there's a rather significant chance both scumbuddies are in Not Voting here. There has to be at least one, since the only scumteam with none would be Mathblade/Grendel. I'll keep an open mind to the possibility, but I rather sincerely doubt that combo.

nancy

(5):

massive

, Grendel,

lime in da coconut

, Gamma Emerald,

Ginngie

Gamma Emerald (2): Mathblade,

nancy

Not Voting: Drixx, PenguinPower

Updated with extra alignments now which will help me in my reread. Additionally updated with D3 VCs.

Vecna had full claimed, Monkey claimed to have a power role but never elaborated beyond that. Anycase I believe both those reasons were enough to have dissuaded their wagons by EoD. I agree that there is a high probability that there is scum in the no votes, I don't agree that the rest of the team has to be there.

This reminded me I should reread the game soon. Meant to the other night lol.

[Grendel]

Posting to say that I had no internet yesterday.

I'm busy right now so I'll get caught up tonight.

[Grendel]

@Drixx

Lime in da coconut wins the award for rolefishing as a reaction to me claiming to know of another PR. No town aligned player should want me to reveal such information, except in conditions where doing so would solve the game. And I certainly didn't say or imply that.

Is this as simple as Gamma Emerald and Lime?


@Ginngie - I would really like to see actual explanation and analysis please. I have a hard enough time getting a read on you. Short declarative statements for posts don't help. Even if it seems absurdly self-evident to you, can you please explain the rationale for how you arrive where you do? If you do it for no other reason than to demonstrate some new tools to help me, then at least do it for that please?

You said that the key to winning was to identify who nancy was defending.

So how was nancy defending Gamma by attempting to lynch him?

[Grendel]

@Math

Interestingly while I was in Civilization mafia, the longest Large Theme, I was also in Open 675, the longest Open. Both games sucked up a ridiculous amount of my time.

Civilization Mafia Mafia:

Votecount 3.56:

Gamma Emerald (4): Mathblade, Ginngie, nancy, lime in da coconut
nancy (1): massive
Mathblade (0):
lime in da coconut (0):
Drixx (0):
Grendel (0):
massive (0):
Ginngie (0):
PenguinPower (0):

Not Voting: Gamma Emerald, Grendel, Drixx, PenguinPower

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch.

The day has begun and will end in (expired on 2017-09-17 23:00:00).

Spoiler: Remaining Posts:

Drixx: 59
Ginngie: 54
lime in da coconut: 62
Gamma Emerald: 45
Mathblade: 23
Grendel: 60
massive: 55
PenguinPower: 70
nancy: 43

Replacements omg!
Prods did go out.

This VC is the highlight of why Gamma is scum.

Gamma sat at L-1 a

reallllly

long time here.

Then a nancy wagon develops.

If Gamma was Town scum could have hammered there.

It could also mean that with you and nancy on the wagon, and third scum was too flighty to join a wagon with their buddies. Many scums feel that putting their whole team on a single wagon is bad juju. Espssally if Gamma were to be flipped with no counter wagon, and no reason at that point. From scum pov I’d think that hammering town Gamma there would look pretty bad in retrospect.

VOTE: nancy

-/-/-/-/-

Math's play today has been pretty scummy. Nothing about Gamma has been obscum fmpov, and seeing Math insist that he has been doesn't jive with me. It looks like over compensation. The point that Massive calling the game a role maddness is a scum slip also doesn't seem believable. My only qualm is that I think that in this sutiantion Math would be bussing nancy instead of pushing a mislynch on Gamma. The scum Math I remember likes to bus a lot. I guess that this would call into question Gamma's legitimacy, I'll have to consider that bridge when I come to it.

Look who finally becomes active a drops a vote on nancy.

Grendel from playing with me knows I am an overconfident player and well...He claims I am scummy because I am loud lololol

Grendel is stretching for reasons.

I can't help my irl schedule outside of the game. If I could be more on top of things here I would be.

I was saying, and still say, that you’re are resistance to provide more explanations and reasons then you need to get by. Hence making your confidence look artificial to me. I think that claiming I meant, "Math is too loud," is an awful interpretation of I was saying.

Busy but compare interactions.

Robbvna was never questioned by nancy

However, was always defending Robb by questioning and saying scumreads on him didn't make sense.

Considering its quite clear that nancy fucked heavily with asking a lot of questione, giving reasoning for people.

She has no basis for her reads to justify the defense of that slot.

nancy scum will call the scummiest teammate town. Example when she said Math was town even after the horribad push by Math on her.

This was nancy going "I don't understand why you're trying to bus me or distance, when she will just go "let us just townread each other."

I was also manipulating nancy.

She in night and day lied and called me Town.

I had her pegged on read in and called her Town to get her to relax then lead Gamma wagon and then scum divert to another scum and you have the courage to bullshit I am scum?

ObvTown doesn't mean right.

We are lynching Gamma who scum didn't want lynched.

I don’t think that anything in your court would be hard for a player of your experience to fake with that purpose of making a town/scum interaction. I also don’t think that nancy pretending to appease you is something nancy couldn't do to a buddy that is scum reading her. In fact It make sense for nancy to town read the buddy bussing her since that looks better the ignoring them altogether.

It doesn't add up that you can go on with how good you are at bussing, but somehow faking a town/scum relationship with a buddy is just too beyond your ability to accomplish.

[Grendel]

@All

Also, someone who isn't Gamma, and actually Grendel can attest. nancy doens't bus. No matter what.

Gingie is right, nancy doesn't bus.

@Gingie

I actually like the thought of Math/lime scum

MathxLime would mean the whole team would be on the same wagon, (Gamma), for an extended period of time. Which is uncommon on its own, and less likely in a situation were town is a day away from lylo.

I think that MathXDrixx makes more sense.

I may jump for MathxPengiun, or LimeXPengiun before MathxLime.

It seemed like there was something against DrixxXLime but I can't remember what is was now.

[Grendel]

I wasn't on the internet until like five minutes ago dude.

My lynch pool is between Math/Drixx right now with Lime as a compromise.

Is Drixx your pref Gamma?

[Grendel]

Wowww, you can't complain about to game state if you aren't going to do anything to fix it. Calling me out then leaving before we can chat isn't cool. Play like you care okay?

-/-/-/-/-/-

@All

Lets set an interim deadline where everybody on the roster places a vote on the table. Say, three days from now?

We don't need to lynch by then, but we do need at least two viable wagons by EoD. Which will be coming sooner then I think we are prepared for as is.

Meanwhile I'll look more into this roster.

[Grendel]

There's a reason I am not pushing Lime, despite his reaction to what I said being pretty scummy. It's a good reason. I'd prefer to leave it at that.

As far as nancy busing or not busing: I reject that as an argument. Her pushing Gamma knowing she would die is what I would expect if they are teammates. She has been saying for awhile she's going to quit or take an extended break, so if there was ever a time to change things up, why not now? Furthermore ... she went to her death with like 2% of the charisma she actually has on display. She could have gotten out of that lynch and yet she didn't. It therefore follows that she wanted to be lynched. It therefore follows that any argument about her "busing" isn't really relevant in this situation.

I mean ... I suppose it's mildly possible that she didn't get lynched and Gamma did, but I wouldn't call her effort at the end of yesterday noteworthy, and if she actually wanted to bus someone, she has the charisma to pull it off.

She has had near zero charisma for most of the game. I wouldn't say that there was any change in her play yesterday from previous days. Their were several posts of nancy complaining about signing up, the normals, and her avoiding the thread.

So she decided to eat the lynch. She has a well known meta of not busing. People are outright dismissing a super scummy slot because nancy kinda sorta pushed it. That sounds exactly like what I was asking for earlier: who benefits from the way she played it out?

1015, 1021, and 1114 are more then kinda sorta pushing when you consider that this would be nancy's first hypothetical bus in her whole mafia career. Also, nancy kept Sunlit/Gamma in her lynch pool for most the game. So while the vote came down on D3 nancy was okay with a Gamma lynch long before then, and that means that gamma isn't likely scum. Because knowing nancy from previous games she wouldn't have decided from the outset to bus. If she decided bus its more likel she would have done it on the fly. AND THATS IF she went against her long ingrained meta of "no bussing."

If there where underlying motives of misdirecting players away from somebody I think that there is a high chance that she was giving Math town cred via "Math & nancy manipulative mind games." Its a good way to distance and nancy doesn't have to cross her line of ethical play. It fits Nancy's previous moves as scum then her bussing.

That said its just as easy to say that there were no underlying motives. nancy looked like she wasn't caring much for the game in the first place, and may have just given up at the end.

Pairing me up with Math is absurd because I could easily have hammered Gamma without any heat for doing it, and instead I voted math and took heat off of gamma.

You seem most sure of Math ... why?

Not really. Gamma was the only wagon at the time, how often does town see no counter wagon and assume that its a good lynch in retrospect? (not often)

Also:

It could also mean that with you and nancy on the wagon, and third scum was too flighty to join a wagon with their buddies. Many scums feel that putting their whole team on a single wagon is bad juju. Espssally if Gamma were to be flipped with no counter wagon, and no reason at that point. From scum pov I’d think that hammering town Gamma there would look pretty bad in retrospect.

I had some points on Math in the same post btw

[Grendel]

After the past few posts from Gamma (as I pointed out), I'm pretty sure he's scum. PP has remained an empty slot since replacing in and is a plausible partner.

Grendel you may as well take me out of your lynch pool. You haven't at all engaged with any of my posts so it just looks like you looked at the most recent vote count and don't really give a shit who gets lynched. You're about as a deep as a puddle.

Why are both you and Math pushing this narrative that I'm not invested in this game?

I have in fact poked you twice coming into this game

@Drixx

Spoiler:

Thanks for your graciousness with everything going on with the hurricane and family and stuff. My folks have some damage, but nowhere near what they would have had the storm gone inland at the Tampa/St. Pete area as expected. They likely wouldn't have a house anymore in that case. Things were pretty crowded and they left me the gift of some kind of flu-like virus, but they're home safely now and I'm good.

Nancy has been exceptionally wily in my few experiences with her. I would appreciate if someone who knows her better could pipe up on what to look for in her posts to try and find her team. I'm a little weirded out by how her lynch happened also. I'm fairly sure she could have talked herself out of it, but she didn't seem to give a whole lot of effort to that end. Why would scum!nancy roll over like that?

Ginngie pinged a little bit with the comment about x-shot not fitting in the setup. Hindsight shows that nancy was faking, but I don't see why or how that conclusion was reached.

I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.

There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.


So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?

Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.

So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.

Glad that you and your family came out safely from the hurricane and its aftermath.

I think most these thoughts were well established with the flip.

So the question is, who do you think nancy was protecting?

@Drixx

Lime in da coconut wins the award for rolefishing as a reaction to me claiming to know of another PR. No town aligned player should want me to reveal such information, except in conditions where doing so would solve the game. And I certainly didn't say or imply that.

Is this as simple as Gamma Emerald and Lime?


@Ginngie - I would really like to see actual explanation and analysis please. I have a hard enough time getting a read on you. Short declarative statements for posts don't help. Even if it seems absurdly self-evident to you, can you please explain the rationale for how you arrive where you do? If you do it for no other reason than to demonstrate some new tools to help me, then at least do it for that please?

You said that the key to winning was to identify who nancy was defending.

So how was nancy defending Gamma by attempting to lynch him?

I didn't make a deal over it sense you did end up hitting my questions later, though you didn't address me directly.

I thought that you might be avoiding conflict, however, I guess its more likely you just didn't notice?

[Grendel]

After the past few posts from Gamma (as I pointed out), I'm pretty sure he's scum. PP has remained an empty slot since replacing in and is a plausible partner.

Grendel you may as well take me out of your lynch pool. You haven't at all engaged with any of my posts so it just looks like you looked at the most recent vote count and don't really give a shit who gets lynched. You're about as a deep as a puddle.

Why are both you and Math pushing this narrative that I'm not invested in this game?

I have in fact poked you twice coming into this game

@Drixx

Spoiler:

Thanks for your graciousness with everything going on with the hurricane and family and stuff. My folks have some damage, but nowhere near what they would have had the storm gone inland at the Tampa/St. Pete area as expected. They likely wouldn't have a house anymore in that case. Things were pretty crowded and they left me the gift of some kind of flu-like virus, but they're home safely now and I'm good.

Nancy has been exceptionally wily in my few experiences with her. I would appreciate if someone who knows her better could pipe up on what to look for in her posts to try and find her team. I'm a little weirded out by how her lynch happened also. I'm fairly sure she could have talked herself out of it, but she didn't seem to give a whole lot of effort to that end. Why would scum!nancy roll over like that?

Ginngie pinged a little bit with the comment about x-shot not fitting in the setup. Hindsight shows that nancy was faking, but I don't see why or how that conclusion was reached.

I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.

There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.


So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?

Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.

So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.

Glad that you and your family came out safely from the hurricane and its aftermath.

I think most these thoughts were well established with the flip.

So the question is, who do you think nancy was protecting?

@Drixx

Lime in da coconut wins the award for rolefishing as a reaction to me claiming to know of another PR. No town aligned player should want me to reveal such information, except in conditions where doing so would solve the game. And I certainly didn't say or imply that.

Is this as simple as Gamma Emerald and Lime?


@Ginngie - I would really like to see actual explanation and analysis please. I have a hard enough time getting a read on you. Short declarative statements for posts don't help. Even if it seems absurdly self-evident to you, can you please explain the rationale for how you arrive where you do? If you do it for no other reason than to demonstrate some new tools to help me, then at least do it for that please?

You said that the key to winning was to identify who nancy was defending.

So how was nancy defending Gamma by attempting to lynch him?

I didn't make a deal over it sense you did end up hitting my questions later, though you didn't address me directly.

I thought that you might be avoiding conflict, however, I guess its more likely you just didn't notice?

[Grendel]

I started rereading some isos. Starting with Korts/Drixx. I'm getting off now but expect to come back and finish that tomorrow afternoon.

I'm thinking Lime next and finishing with Math.

@Gamma

Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?

Korts kinda reminds me of our mutual frieng UG's scum game. Where UG gets all Grandose and dramatic with his posting. Outside of that I'm not sure I'm seeing as much Korts!scum as I expected (I'm at Kort's 316 aka Tchill scum case). If you have any input to share please do.

[Grendel]

Kort's Early game posts (Pages 1~4) were very try hard in nature. I never was able to chalk it up the try hardness there was an indicator that he was scum trying for town cred. A part of me always felt that his over all reactions to things there were out of eagerness to be in a set up where spammy posting would be discouraged. Therefore non-AI. I guess my feelings reading this now haven't changed much In that I can see both sides as possible

I think that its worth noting that the RVS push on Precy is something that I see older players doing as a form a early distance (Pre-2010). At least I see it more than I do with newer players.

Spoiler:

Whoops, looks like there's a couple pages to go through since my last post. I plan on falling off the map later tonight, so I'll just do a quick catch-up post and respond to anyone who addressed me. More to come tomorrow and on the weekend.

@Korts

~~~~~

Which is not to say that I don't think Persephone isn't suspcious independent of your arguments. Her play has been pretty poor so far - but yours can be characterized more specifically as opportunistic.

So how do you read Persephone's ISO then? What do you not agree on me about?

~~~~~

What would I gain as scum by pushing Percy's wagon right now if not to scumhunt and to learn from her reactions?
What would I gain as scum by openly questioning townreads people have on me this early?

Reading Persephone's ISO, I partly believe her claim that her newbieness is the main driving force behind the poor play. I dislike her panicky lack of commitment to her RVS vote when pushed, and she is still more focused on explaining and excusing herself than analyzing others' behavior around her, which is anti-town at best.

What do I not agree with you about? Dude. I told you already. You argued that Persephone's reason being "too serious" is scummy, and I think that argument is bogus.

What would you gain with a Percy wagon? A potential lynch, something to keep posting about, someplace to keep your vote. Are you saying that pushing a Percy wagon should be considered an exclusively pro-town venture?

By openly questioning (unjustified) townreads on yourself, you are heading off anyone else doing the same, and besides - you didn't object to the read, you just asked Ginggie how much she trusts the read, like you were fishing for an ally.

I mean, before writing this post, I was pretty much past my initial suspicion of you, because you have made some salient points elsewhere, but now that you made me explain all this (again), I'm reconsidering my reconsideration.

Unlike Korts, I don't vote someone who I only disagree with. His push against me was NAI. It could be something a town can do, but it lost townpoints because it was a bullshit push. Anyway, why do you think that I had to vote Korts?

Hey fuck you. Disagreement was not my reason for voting you. I laid out my bullshit case quite clearly, thank you.

God, Ginggie is being useless in this game. It doesn't sound deliberate, but come on.

Tchill

the true definition of rvs

Pouiusdfnblxkjnvqeroőüignjsdbfblkaémnm are you trying to give me an aneurysm?

massive was distressingly cryptic to start with, but 138 is a much more reasoned and reasonable write-up than previous posts. Especially the Kaboose suspicion, which I have glossed over on first read but looks like a potential catch now. I will do my proper weekend reread with an eye toward this as well.

I still think Percy is way, way overreacting, but after her response to my last post I am not (currently) scumreading her for it. I will revisit later in this phase / next phase and see if what she gave me stands up to scrutiny.

The scum I

am

seeing is VOTE: TChill. He has spent an inordinate amount of his 21 posts defending Percy (directly and indirectly) and redirecting attention to other players. This looks more like like buddying up (white knighting? pocketing? What is the correct term?) than scum teaming to me, given what I first said.

Robb, what are your reads OTHER than Percy?

Finally, something from you that I can completely agree with.

My vote stays on Tchill.

Korts first substantive post after the rvs posting which was a lot of talking without strong points to go off of.
What really appeared to me in this post was where Korts adderessed HumanEatingMonkey about Percy. I actually think that Korts makes very good points about her newbieness being the source of her play. If Korts is town here it totally makes sense to view Percy as an unsubstsive place to push given that she is most likely going to continue defending herself and spazzing out. Mafia _would_ benefit from pushing Precy in that situation, or even just ignoring her wagon, moreso then discouraging the wagon.

I suppose this could be Korts defending his move away from scum buddy Percy (Pengiun now)

Tchill’s playstyle was pretty scummy, and I could see twon fostering suspicions there. Korts thoughts on Tchill also make sense in the circumstance.

Spoiler:

Eddie what the fuck with the shitstream - how is "hm" and "lol?" in response to quotes from ten pages ago worth a separate post each? Get it together. Take your fucking time. Compose a fucking thought and consider the value of coherence in your writing.

lol yeah you're just scum you're getting roped today. you aren't attempting to sort me, you just said you aren't going to interact with me anymore and that's because you know you're stuck in a corner. me not having time to actually read the game and rvsing for a bit doesn't allow you to write me off.

this means t chill is town and won't be lynched meaning ginngie will probably help you try to mislynch me. t chill, stop being a scummy scumfuck and post something useful to reassure me. you can even 2v2 ginngie and robb with me! ginngie is probably tilted town tho so your focus is robb.

Uhh... How the fuck does Robb's tunneling mean that Tchill is town? That is by far the stupidest thing I've read in this thread yet. And your Ginggie read is jumping all over the place. I can't even begin to understand what you're going for here.

The explanation in 304/305 isn't very compelling. It hinges on some pretty big assumptions of intention. You're also playing the newbie card on Tchill's behalf pretty hard.

But okay, you have some experience with him. Does he usually partake in any substantial scumhunting?

I View this kind of talking down/ lecturing other players more townlike in D1 when town stand to lynch based off their feelings moreso then fact or logic. Acting like your least favorite teacher from middle school doesn’t play to scum win-con D1 usually. At least, there are much better ways to be the “helpful protown scum lord” then integrating derision into the lessons.
I know that some players tend to be more prone to lecturing less experienced players as one alignment or another. If anybody here knows if Korts has meta to be preach as one alignment or the other speaking up would be great.

Spoiler:

Btw voting my top scum read is and always will be protown. Don't ever say I'm not being protown when I absolutely am.

The goal of the game is to find and lynch scum. That's what I'm trying to do.

That is however nothing like what you are doing. You omgus me after you say your predecessor could be scum

Whatever else is up with you and Eddie (and I keep going back and forth in my mind on it) this is just not true, Robb. If you want to help the town get rid of scum, you need to work with the town. If you cannot convince us to lynch your scum pick, then you are not helping by refusing to entertain other possibilities. There is more than one scum. The town needs a consensus, not single-minded renegades who are willing to throw their votes away on principle.

I actually think that compromising D1 and finding censuous early is a very protown move, and seeing that Korts enforced it here is… surprising. I’m surprised I missed it.
When I roll scum in a game where a can afford to I’ll let town’s votes stagnate D1 since that Mad rush at EoD to find a lynch is extremely pro-scum. Clearly Korts knew this as well, but would he have kept that factoid to himself as scum? Part of me thinks so.

Spoiler:

Okay, well, I don't really feel like doing a huge recap, so here are just my reads, from most likely town to most likely scum.

Spoiler: Obv-Town to Townish

nancy

- I feel like nancy has been completely transparent and pro-town. I really don't know what to highlight here.

Dark Horse

- a step below nancy, he has not been anywhere near as engaged, but whenever he posts I find myself agreeing with everything he says.

massive

- this is a town read that I am very uncertain about, but considering my other reads, and the fact that there really isn't anything to suspect massive for, I cannot justify a lower position on the ladder. The evolution of his Tchill read in particular resonates with me, and his conclusion that we're barking up the wrong tree had me thinking for a bit. Then again, with massive's unassailable performance of towniness in mind, I'm still interested in a Tchill flip - if massive is scum, we're probably fucked, unless Tchill is scum too.

Ginggie

- I go back and forth, sometimes reading her tounge-in-cheek one-liner style as a good mask for her actual intentions, but then she also seems genuinely invested in scumhunting. I don't know what to take of the 393 claim, but that is neither here nor there at this point. I considered putting her lower because of Tchill's weird interactions with her, but I find everyone below this point scummier for more germane reasons.

Spoiler: Middle-of-the-Road

Grendel

- I dunno. massive had a decent point against Kaboose (not following up on pressure) which I thought would be interesting, but looking at it in context now it's just asking questions (from not just massive) as he is catching up, so uh, nope. I think Grendel has done a solid job of getting up to gear, but I'm not sure what direction he's going in. I know I don't like his final question to Ginggie in 402.

humaneatingmonkey

- I feel like he didn't come out looking particularly well from our early tiff, but then again, I wasn't really scumhunting at that point so much as generating content. Since then, however, he has made a few good posts in between active lurking due to work. I don't really have enough to judge him by, so he's right in the middle of the road for now.

Robbnva

- Oh Robb. Really the only thing about Robb in this game is Percy/Eddie. I'm reading Robb vs Percy/Eddie as TvT, but then I really don't understand how town deathtunnels so hard, or how Eddie lost his second chance in Robb's eyes after replacing in - this warrants a separate reread that I know I'm going to hate myself for promising.

Eddie Cane

- again, same as above, I read along with most of the Robb vs Eddie argument thinking it's TvT, but especially with Eddie's later reactions, I kind of have the feeling that I just thought that so that I wouldn't have to think about it. I say all of this without having reread them, though. I guess I will have to, but not this time around.

Spoiler: Scummy to Obv-Scum

Sunlit Diamond

- this is admittedly a gut scum read. Actually reading back, the only thing I can pinpoint as dumb is his "so good it's scummy" reaction to my Tchill case, which I guess may be personal, but also makes me want to pursue Tchill more, and see if there is a connection.

Vecna

- Ari has not been useful to the game, let alone the town, so I hesitate to judge this slot by his actions. Then again, nancy seemed convinced that Ari was playing to his scum meta. I also agree with massive's heebies regarding the "not saying you are scum" comment. I really don't see why humaneatingmonkey was the vote for him, either. I don't see that wagon taking off, nor has he made any case for it (in his initial reads, he only mentions a minor feeling, nothing substantial).

Tchill

- I gotta say, the response to my case made me a bit uncertain despite the way I doubled down in public. Then again, I have applied the same lack of care for my own slot both as scum and town before, so the genuineness is NAI for me. Other than that, see my case for why I still think he's scum; since then, he's been noticeably more careful IMO, and now I'm all the more convinced.

Assemblerotws

- Wow. Talk about flying under the radar. Lynch All Lurkers, anyone?

So. The three lynches I am willing to go for today are Assemble, Tchill, and Vecna. I'm going back to the Tchill wagon for now, but if anyone wants to help one of the others take off, I'm all for it.

VOTE: Tchill

Nancy would most likely encourage her buddies to keep her as a high town read. So Korts having Nancy their at the top makes sense.
Korts keeping Darkhorse (Lime) as second top town read is less likely for them to be partnherners since it would mean that Korts was keeping both buddies as top town read with low ideation as to why. I just don’t think that Korts is that confidant a scum player.
The null slots where Robbnva (Math), and Eddie (Pengiun), make more sense as reads made on second scum buddy.

Spoiler:

What reason would scum!TChill have for saying he didn't shoot versus hiding behind Vecna's JK?

Actually that's a good question. I... don't know.

VOTE: Unvote

Then again, Tchill's play has been less than optimal regardless of alignment, so arguing out of a position of "why would scumTchill do this" doesn't help my read a hell of a lot either. I kinda dread having him around at endgame, because who the fuck can tell.

I gotta go catch a train, I will address other stuff later today.

Spoiler:

I did not use my ability and I am not claiming one shot. I wasn't gonna kill a townie on accident on top of the fact that we had already given scum a free kill because of the no lynch.

I mean, if anything, the no lynch gave us more room for town deaths. You could have used the kill to try scumhunting yourself, and give the town a flip to work with next day even though we bungled the lynch. assembler was at L-1, and I would have hammered if I was here, as would I imagine most of us who didn't make it, so we would all have welcomed that shot - then you had a monkey suspicion that was shared by others, whose flip would have helped clear the air as well - there were good targets for you to shoot. That you didn't choose any of them is baffling.

I mean, I was expecting you to blame Vecna's jailkeeping. It completely throws me off that you just didn't shoot at all. I don't understand how you thought not shooting would benefit the town.

I don't really think that scum Korts would back off here?
From a scum perspective publicly waffling on a claim is NOT something a mafiaso would want to do. Town on the other hand wouldn’t know one way or another, and are prone to publicly doubting themselves. It makes more sense for scum to buckle down, or to not have pursued the thought in the first place.

Spoiler:

@Korts: your case on TChill feels a bit like trying to come up with scum reasoning for every post, which feels forced. What was the intention here?

I'm sure a proper PBPA feels forced nowadays, but that's how I learned to play the game. If you're sure of a scum read, you gather your evidence and present your case. I highlighted any of Tchill's posts where I could see the reflection of a scummy mindset; that that ended up being most of his posts is circumstantial.

While Korts does explain how important through analysis here I do think that making grandiose catch up posts, in this case reread posts, are a good place from scum to provide content without having to engage other players. I think Korts came from a time where wall posting was more expected and required, so there is a decent chance he'd do this kind of thing as both alignments. Also in his last game here as town, he did make lots of review walls.

I do think that his review wall, and case on Tchill are both good examples of the grandiose behavior I was talking about earlier.

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

I don't know what to make of Korts push on Robbvana. Robb subbing out due to Korts case and remarks seems weird for a S/S interaction.

[Grendel]

^I saw that when I previewed, but idk how to fix it.

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

A couple other thoughts:

-Did Korts ever become a real wagon this game? I didn't see anything in the VCs but I am pretty sure he got wagoned up a few times right?

-I think that transition from his eager attitude to disinterest is well... interesting. He was under pressure post Gamma's sub in but otherwise his team and him were doing fine. So I think that him leaving the game is odd unless another buddy was under more pressure then him, (nancy was widely town read so it wasn't her)

-I actually think that a majority of the cases Korts posted against other players are pretty soild. Its hard to describe a reason for why Korts is scum that isn't gut related. It explains why I never could get a soild read on him then, and is still an issue now.

-/-/-/-/-

Drixx Iso should be a quicker read fortunately.

After that I'll start with Lime's pred. I'm hoping to finish all this slot reviewing today since I may not have much time tomorrow.

[Grendel]

Oh and Gamma

@Gamma

Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?

Can you do this soon?

[Grendel]

Spoiler:

I see that you see no reason, still tho, vote it because it's scummy not to compromise

I'm not going to hammer before Titus can even say anything, and since the person we

should

be lynching has already given intent to hammer, I only need to be around near deadline just in case in order to ensure we don't have consecutive no lynches. I'm not unreasonable in that way. We have to lynch and if I can't persuade you by pointing out why the Titus slot has no reason to be lynched and pointing out why the other slot does, then that's my failing, isn't it?

I mean... I think I made a pretty compelling case that there's literally NO reason to lynch Titus and in fact if I had to give a read on the slot I'd say it's slightly town because of the early posts which were on point and don't appear to be scum narrative bullshit.

I'll be sure to be around near deadline just in case for some reason I have to ensure we actually lynch today, but that doesn't obligate me to stop trying to persuade you guys that it's the wrong lynch. Please go take a look at the things I pointed out and see if you don't agree with me.

I think that justifying Assembler's play was town like, (even mildly so), is amusing. Wagon physics or no Assemble never should have been above null. Drixx may really think that he had a point with Assemble in prevous post, I just objectively disagree that any of Assemble said was town like.

Spoiler:

I think we basically got super lucky, because the primary reason that nancy was lynched was because of setup spec, and we know from Massive's flip that there is more PRs (he flipped Backup Vanilla_Cop when humaneatingmonkey was a Cop with the novice modifier. I'm pretty sure this means that Massive was not even a PR yet, but instead was backup to a Vanilla Cop who hasn't yet flipped. Good play on his part drawing fire in that case.

There's also the fact that I know for sure of at least one other town PR.


So that brings me back to nancy. She was a goon. She basically rolled over and let herself get lynched. The question is: Cui Bono?

Apart from the vigilante, all of our flipped PRs (and the implied vanilla cop whom Massive was a backup for) had some level of investigative utility. That's also straight in line with what I know. I think that also suggests what kind of roles we should expect scum to have. Nancy being a goon implies a strong power level remaining, and also probably explains why she basically rolled over for the lynch.

So this should be easy now: figure out who nancy was protecting and GG.

I only just noticed the bit about knowing another pr. Tbh I think that its better for Drixx to claim now then at lylo. Especially if this claim can clear him.

Spoiler:

So I'm sitting here waiting for the info drop and ... it's going so slowly I got prodded. Holy shit this game is like molasses at the south pole ... only I think the molasses moves faster.

Pretty much everyone did, Ginngie.

I've given it well enough time. Looks like the blank votes on me are opportunism.

I've got an idea, but it might offend a couple of you. How about we

NOT

snatch defeat from the jaws of victory this game by doing stupid shit like ignoring the really obvious?

Unvote

<--- For example; I thought I saw mathblade slip. There's legit a quoted post where they refer to being scum openly and I was like "WTF weird for math to slip like that", but assumed it was the reason votes had shifted that way. But I went back and looked and Math was legit talking about another game for some reason. (When will smart people learn that whatever happened in another game with another setup with different people cannot accurately inform you about any specific later piece of information?).

I even REFERENCED mathblade slipping, and nobody corrected me.

Like ... are we actually even trying here guys?



Meanwhile we've got Gamma somehow shrugging off a wagon by ... blank voting.

Did I wander into a newbie primer game or something? (Newbie primer = game to prepare one to play a newbie).

Okay, so I really dislike the negative tone and dismissive additute towards other players when the game state has made a potential U-turn away from town loss. Things like calling this a newbie primer game, and how we keep missing the obvious. Like he is acknowledging that town has a real chance, but keeps complaining instead of focusing on moving the game forward.

I do get that the second response is in frustration over the motivation/reason of Drixx voting Math. So it does make sense with more context.

I still dislike how Drixx implied I wasn't invested in this game or some crap. Its really not his place to judge what I'm doing or my play when I've been very open about having a tight schedule.

Spoiler:

So what makes anyone think I'm scum? Blank votes started by Gamma (who could easily have been hammered earlier, and was the consensus lynch until Math slipped) and PP (who replaced a totally empty slot) aren't exactly overwhelming here.

Do feel free to actually give some kind of cogent argument.

This is technically a town slip, (or a DrixxXMath slip) I usually ignore these from experienced players.

I have to acknowledge that it did come out of nowhere. It wasn't hard enough to pull any town cred, (clearly looking at peoples reactions). His explanation is also believable enough.

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

So this is a lot to consider. I have to stop now to do homework. when I get back I'll do DarkHourse/Lime.

I hope I can stream line this process in future games since reviewing isos takes a huge chunk of my irl time. I dread doing them these days. -.-

[Grendel]

I guess I won't be finishing Lime/Darkhorse tonight. Bleh.

I started rereading some isos. Starting with Korts/Drixx. I'm getting off now but expect to come back and finish that tomorrow afternoon.

I'm thinking Lime next and finishing with Math.

@Gamma

Did you ever post a more through case on that slot?

Korts kinda reminds me of our mutual frieng UG's scum game. Where UG gets all Grandose and dramatic with his posting. Outside of that I'm not sure I'm seeing as much Korts!scum as I expected (I'm at Kort's 316 aka Tchill scum case). If you have any input to share please do.

I take it this refers to Korts/Drixx?

Yes it does

If I remember correctly you only do it when you're trying to case someone right?

Pretty much. It's not hard set, but, yep.

If that's true why not take the time to case out the two of them?

[Grendel]

Dark Horse’s early game posts, (Pages 1-4), are acceptable. The move to Tchill makes sense, and is natural given the game state.

Spoiler:

On ari's meta: I played with town!him in perfect blue and he similarily didn't care about the game at all.

Don't think he's at all similar here to his play there? He feels town in just his first few posts there and I don't feel anything at all from him here; do you have anything actually substantive to say about my read or are you just content shrugging it off because he didn't care in some other game you remember? I haven't even argued that he's scum here because of lack of caring; I think if you actually took the time to address my post you would probably realize that.

What? In perfect blue he was doing the same active lurking with fluffposts that he's doing here. Like I legit don't see how his posts in perfect blue feel more "real and natural" than his posts here. Reading 203 as scummy is a stretch. The rest of your post talks about scum!ari which I can't comment on because I have yet to play a game with him where he flipped scum.

Assembler what do you think of tchill?

Spoiler:

VOTE: vecna

Tchill if you're telling the truth shoot assmbler tonight.

Hey Tchill ill make you a deal.

We lynch my target today, you help me convince everyone to sheep me, and if I fail to lynch scum with it, you shoot me tonight. Alright?

After last game you should know my instincts are pretty good when it comes to these things.

Assuming you're talking about monkey here you seem very very committed to a lynch that you said was a "minor feeling that something was up here"

Plus I don't buy the tone shift after the vig claim and tchill's vote.

341 to 552 is an odd transition where Dark horse soft defends vecna’s predecessor, then comes back and vote Vecna later with no open read progression. If I get a chance I need to recheck the nearly two hundred posts that happened between this and Dark horses last post. I don’t recalled Vecna doing anything that would shift a light town read to scum with no hesitation.

Spoiler:

Nancy what do you think of vecna?

I don't really get the opinion that t chill's wagon has been weak. Granted I might be biased but still.

I can definitely see the kotrs-monkey-tchill triangle.

Sunlit diamond's 386 feels weirdly placed now that I think about it.

Tchill are you actually gonna push monkey?

Considering that 2/3players on that triangle have flipped town, and the low likelyhood of DrixxxLime, I think this is increases them to a mutally exclusive relationship material.

Its also odd that Vecna, the one who thought of the triangle, was among Dark Horse’s scum reads. That implies that Dark Horse may not be paying mind to the one he was professing to scum read.

Spoiler:

Idk why people are saying that if tchill's scum then mafia must have some sort of other killing role. Couldn't he just be a serial killer?

3rd party spec is gross.

Spoiler:

Sorry about the delay guys I finally got time.

Stuff based on last three pages:

Honestly the more I think about it vecna's weird actions toward tchill are kind of understandable from a pr perspective. I'm assuming being the main scumread of a claimed vig isn't going to put you in the best mood.

Monkey's claim is weird. Feels really out of place, plus "town pr role" is such a vague claim. Korts trying to blame other people with the "did you guys really run up another PR claim" also feels weird, considering it feels like monkey himself was the primary reason for him claiming, saying stuff like "nancy should I claim"

Vecna's massive vote is weird though, that's a total vanity wagon vote.

Korts talking about vecna's claim not being believable with the implosion is ringing alarm bells. I don't see why he wouldn't be accusing monkey of the same thing, except monkey has an even more unbelievable claim.

Though if eddie cane doesn't show up near the deadline gin has a really good point in #694

Don't like the way that monkey seems to switch his vote to whoever's accusing him.

gut town read on nancy.

Don't like the way monkey starts to doubt vecna being scum, seems like a kinda last minute thing if venca would flip town.

Sunlit what do you mean proved himself to you

In conclusion VOTE: monkey

Spoiler:

You talking about how you'd be fine lynching yourself over vecna felt weird. Like it felt like that was something you were saying because it was so close to the deadline that you getting lynched isn't something that would actually happen.

If eddie doesn't actually show up as we get closer to the deadline then I agree that his sentiment is scummy.

I disagree that grendel's attack on you (monkey) is largely an attack on character. Maybe the apologizing thing, but I don't see how like you getting invested early in percy v robb and moving away from it is an attack on character.

Robb vs eddie continyes to be a waste of time and is leading town away from people who are actually scummy. Both of you cut it. Robb quit trying to justify yourself with the same "B-b-but I've caught scum!" Eddie quit claiming that we need to get robb lynched just because he's tunneling you

Dark horse often mirrored my thoughts and opinions throughout the game. While he had gone under the radar for quite awhile my recent paranoia of the slot has been reaffirmed with my review. Dark Horse looked very much like he saw I was moving in the wrong direction, and helped keep my momentum going. With the added bonas of linking his slot to mine, of course.

Its not impossible that we meshed really well. But the entirelty of the game there was no attempt to reach out to me preersonally, or anything like that. Like no talking on his end to me that wasn’t initiated from my side. There was that defense of my actions which could potentially make me look like scum with him post flip though.

Its annoying that I didn’t catch this until well after it happened. Sheesh.

Spoiler:

Haven't read previous pages but korts I'm saying that monkey (who you think has been on good behavior), massive (who you say is proactive) and you are scum, and I've never advocated for an assembler lynch outside of being super close to the deadline. How am I making the most sense from your pov? Your reads seem very different

Outside of events where DarkHorse is preemptively bussing I think that this reaction points against Dark and kort’s slots being scum together. If not then it would be poor play to draw extended attention to a buddy while pushing elsewhere, (Monkey), when at that point Korts was only just starting to get real pressure.

Spoiler:

I didn't target tchill.

Kinda busy now, will do more when I have the time

Spoiler:

I didn't target tchill.

This looks a like a pt slip in retrospect. In the first one he was talking to his buddies. Then he comes into the main thread to answer Gingie. This would be in a world where Dark Horse is scum power role.

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

While Dark Horse had a more minimalistic posting style I can say that what I recalled away from the game is pretty close to what it looked like while rereading. Meaning, Dark Horse's slot is scum flying under the radar.

I'll look at Lime now but probably won't directly quote him due to his heavy post formatting. This would probably be a good time to learn how to hyperlink posts here. (I never learned see)

[Grendel]

Thanks Gamma

-/-/-/-/-

Thoughts on Lime

---Why is Lime town reading me? I see where he made that wall to debunk a reads list of mine. It ended with him saying it almost sounds like it comes from a Bad!town mindset 1402. It sounds like a pretty minor reason to think I’m town. Or as Lime put it, -not scum-


---1378. For the record I don’t think that that set up speculation is a scum tell on this site. In fact I think that this defense of nancy’s part regarding her claim is town like. In a situation where a player like Lime recognizes the standard set up meta they’d know that nancy stands a good chance of getting counter claimed by the remaining power roles. So another visting role wouldn’t fly well for Lime, and they wouldn’t want to vouch for it.

There is an “if” here though. If Lime’s slot is a scum power then Lime may have been defending their buddy after all. Because Lime would know the possible parameters could fit an extra role better as scum.

So a Goon/mostly Goon team makes this post town like, whereas the remaining two scum bieng power roles makes Lime’s post here scumy. This is usally the kind of notation I leave in the notes I don’t share publicay hehe.


---1469. I definitely think that Lime’s handling of the claims later in Day 3, and how he is poking for Drizz’s low-key claim today is the strongest point for Lime bieng town. Attempting to “role fish” as people call it is usually only a thing I see town do. Poking another player to learn their role draws a lot of negative attention, therefore most scum avoid doing it.

It also hurts LimexDrixx as a team. Lime also mentions being an alt of an anti-bus player. Which strengthens their ties to nancy.


---1475. I don't want to be a butt for accusing a player of hiding from scrutiny through their posting style. The thing is that a while back I asked for why the ++++++/------- posts were... what they were. For instance an explanation to why they left the strong impression that they did. Lime wasn't able to answer me on the "why". So seeing that Lime switch opinions on some of these and apparently be unable to explain it makes me wonder if Limes obscured game solving logic actually exists. Like is all for the convince of Lime forming the reads, or is it actually game solving?

-/-/-/-/-/-/-

Lime is a strong scum read.

[Grendel]

I may just bum rush skim Rob's ISO because half his iso is tunneling Percy/Eddie/Vedith/Penguin slot.

I'll say from the outset that I recognize that tunneling is a null thing for Rob, (as I found out half way through this game), so there won't be much if any focus there. That should save me some reading time.

-/-/-/-/-

@Gamma

What will it take to get you to stop active lurking?

I think you're town, but I'm getting really tired of dealing with this shtick of yours every game.

@Pengiun

I asked you to case out your Math/Drixx read. Did you miss that?

-/-/-/-/-/-

VOTE: LimeInTheCoconut

[Grendel]

That's what I'm saying. You always do this to -me-. You come in a always post the same surface level crap that makes playing with you a real chore. A player with no knowledge of the game could come in and say half the stuff you do.

Like why do you keep signing up to play with me if you aren't going to give the game any reasonable effort.

Do you not have the respect for me as a player to take playing with me seriously? To take this game seriously?

[Grendel]

I'll read Rob/Math slot, and respond to Lime tomorrow.

Until I get to say words please hold off on hammering.

[Grendel]

Most of Robbva’s talk in the early game (pages 1-5) was arguing schematics with the slot he was pushing. He did break and out scum reads on Massive/tchill, though his focus was mostly on Percy.

191 191 The logic displayed here lets Robbnva justify recycling the same reads throughout the whole game with low change or variance. Ergo he can act stubborn and hide in a tunnel if he wished to as scum. Also thought that the line about people can’t question Robbnva’s –Genuine suspicion—on other players is a unrealistic expectation for players who don’t know Rob.

Going throughout Rob’s iso I noticed a significant lack of town reads developed or reveled by Robbnva. In my prevous experience with town Rob, he has developed both town and scum reads as the game progressed. This game Robnva seemed content to focus solely on the same three/four slots through all of D1. He only ever expressed suspicions of scum this game, anybody he wasn’t scum reading don’t really exist in his reads.

442 This kind of abrasive behavior usally comes from town. Though I think that the distinction between town/scum shin kicking is blured in Rob’s case. Making this a slight point towards town Rob.

884 Robbnva vs Korts was interesting. While posts like 944 with Robbnva naming Korts as a super strong scum read while being unwilling to compromise onto Korts off of Eddie point to scum distancing. Later though a remark on Korts part caused Robenva to get upset and replace out. Utmamtley I think that Korts and Rob’s slots are less likely to be aligned together for it.

909 This post is objectively incorrect. Vig should always shoot when numbers are in the evens. Letting the roster remain that way results in higher chances of mylo down the road. More over using it as a justification for futhering the scum read is also bad.

955 Posts about “bad” players need to be lynched leaves a “bad” taste in my mouth. I may have mentioned it already, (I think I do it every game), but I hate when players justify a lynch as, “well they were a bad player so they deserved to be lynched, who cares if they were town”. It always looks like distancing ones self from accountability for lynching another player.

1067 Unless the rest of Scum!Robbnva’s team had asked for an extension then this is a risky move to make as scum. Assuming that Rob expected RC to reavel that info. Possible point to Rob being town.

-/-/-/-/-

Before looking at Math again I think that I see Robbnva as null read with lots of opportunities to have scummy motivation in his play. I say null instead of scum here because I know he is capable of at least half of this as town, unfortunately. He does in a way fir where others do not. Thanks for his playstle he could ignore the rest of his team for his small lynch pool. I guess better sorting would just be "null-scum," but alas I always over complicate things.

Now onto Math

[Grendel]

Umm yeah, the above posts look like a MathxLime scum team maneuvering in real time to bum rush a Town!Drixx lynch while I'm still trying to make up my mind.

If you guys rush this while I'm rereading and lynch town I'm going to be really mad tomarrow. This is the time to take your time. If you guys aren't going to exercise that then at lteast let me exercise that freedom.

We have like four more days right?

[Grendel]

Umm yeah, the above posts look like a MathxLime scum team maneuvering in real time to bum rush a Town!Drixx lynch while I'm still trying to make up my mind.

What.

No seriously. What are you smoking because you being high is the only explanation I have for you so terribly misreading what I wrote there. Voting Drixx? That's

literally the exact opposite

of what I am advocating. I am saying NOT to lynch Drixx. Read what I fucking said again. The two who are "bumrushing" Drixx are Ginngie and PenguinPower.

It looked like you and math were provoking Penguin to move over to drixx. As of making my last post I thought that Drixx is at L-1, but I guess he isn't upon checking. It was definitely a sudden gut feel I wanted to point out before presumably Penguin ended the day.

Gingie hungers for a flip in general I think.

[Grendel]

How confidant are you in Town!Lime Gamma?

I'm getting worried I might be wrong on their slot. I don't think I want to explain why just yet because its probably stupid.

I don't think I'll be able finish reading math tonight. I should have stuck to the reread instead of following the current events. I'm awful at muti-tasking.

[Grendel]

One of the big reasons I think that Lime is scum is how their predecessor mirrored my thoughts and opinions on the game state. It felt absolutely uncanny while rereading.

But now I'm beginning to feel like I'm just being stupidly egocentric.

Basically, In previous games I've been linked to scum before and it always upsets me to have to fight the associatives after they flip. However legitmate they would be. So I think I approach games now with a mind set that if a player is long term low-key agreeing with me then they are scum linking themselves to me. I mean not in the town blocing sense of agreement. Its when they aren't acknowledging a town read on me, and not really engaging with me. Usally its an unintentional knee jerk response, and I don't know if the intuitive feeling is even all that accuare. Since this feels like one of THOSE moments I wonder if I should drop it.

:/

[Grendel]

Yeah, in an attempt to incriminate me post flip. The other alternative was that I dead really really wroung on something important, and Dark Horse wanted to keep me going in the wrong direction.

Though I suppose if that were the case he'd have called me attention to him more directly.

Its overall a feeling I don't have the same conviction for when I was doing the wall on Dark Lime's slot the other day.

[Grendel]

It seems like we did a mass claim already?

-/-/-/-/-

Yeah we did.

I hard claim vanilla townie.

-/-/-/-/-

I'm still confidant in my Gingie/Gamma reads. I'm thinking last scum is between Math/Penguin.

Thoughts?

[Grendel]

Yesterday I would have said that Math is scum. Not too positive anymore.

I was thinking about coming into today but Lime was a weird kill for scum!Math to make. Gingie kill before lylo is given in most instances because she was top town read. Coming in from Math's pov that leave Me/Gamma/Lime. With Gamma and I having stronger scum reads on Math then Lime, and having a good rapport between us I'd think that killing one of us would take priority over Lime. Like not breaking up two mutual town reads is suicide going into lylo, and Math is experienced enough to know this.

Gamma!scum would mean though that Gamma has been seriously out playing me up to this point. I don't want to sound snobbish but I consider myself pretty good at reading Gamma these days. I guess I need to discard meta while I review Gamma. Is it even possible to review a slot you have outside experience with without being bias?

This is going to be a challenging lylo.

[Grendel]

I have another question, do you believe that nancy isn't really a pr?

I believe that nancy isn't a TOWN PR.

After getting current from last time I'm feeling a bit uneasy with massive rn. He doesn't seem to be looking at things through a normal scope, specifically the Ginngie gambit. It feels like he's spinning things or completely misinterpreting the point of the gambit.
Also real talk I'm kinda not to engaged rn but I'm going to try and keep active.
Also 3 days and I'm the lead wagon O_O I'll put a vote down later hopefully but I'm just going to state that people should take an honest look at that and think "why would a player be so unopposed near deadline?"

So Gamma and Massive like I said yippie.

At work. The CC can wait.

I highly doubt the role madness anyway just saying.

...wow

Massive obvScum says "I am a PR"

After nancy likely being honest to Ginngie's gambit/post/...whatever word you want to use.

People were circling around Massive so Massive was likely to go down.

He is clearly is scum.

Like why would you want nancy to claim when she is prob Town?

And there is nothing that says how many PRs are allowed in a game?

I could see Gamma!Scum missing Massive softing that he is a power role due to Gamma's low investment in the game at that point in time. I also am not crazy about Gamma comment on his status as the only true wagon D3 by 1387. At this point in my mafia career I see that more from scum on their last leg then town.

I think Math scum would have noticed that Massive was softing before the actual claim (regardless what they said in thread p), and probably would have adjusted their play so as to not throw shade at the soon to be night killed pr. However I do think that Math would have continued to push Gamma in the manner that they did. Once it was clear that Massive was counter claiming nancy Math would realize that bussing nancy wouldn't net any town cerd and sticking to Gamma would be in their best interest.

After reviewing the interactions after vote count 3.56 I don't feel much closer to a strong decision. I guess that Gamma's is a more realistic scum reaction. I wish I had another game or two with Math before now so I would better now how to read their reactions these these sorts of things as scum.

[Grendel]

Mainly it is a divided pair.

Either you and Grendel or Drixx and PP.

Mainly you if Town I can't figure out why you wouldn't be hammered if Town.

And if you are scum because of that then the only partner that makes sense is Grendel.

However PP is not following his Town meta and it feels like he is being forced to decide between bussing or me.

I don't see worlds with Ginngie or Lime scum.

Uggh wait, maybe if Math thought that Lime was as OBtown town as Gingie then they would shoot Lime even if Me/Gamma are actually better kills?

IF you mean leave a lasting impression yes.

Drixx and PP final answer or Gamma + Grendel.

Those are the only two teams.

And if I am wrong well played scum.

Plus Math would always want to shoot outside of the mutually exclusive relationships. So that's just Lime/Gingie.

[Grendel]

Ha! I missed that. Lime is trying to meta read me too. That's hilarious.

Math/Lime is not a thing most likely.

VOTE: Mathblade

Hate the above post. L-1 and things.

Okay, I thought I remembered this last night but didn't have time to check until now. Reading from this Vote count to this vote count Math blade was at L-1 for a couple irl days on D4. Wagon composition was: (Gingie, Gamma, Pengiun), but it wasn't recorded in ether vote count because the votes moved before vote count 4.64.

The pressure quickly went from there to Drixx/Pengiun. With Drixx ultimately getting lynched. If Gamma was scum he couldn't have hammered Math because he was already on the wagon. Which in turn would explain why if town Math wasn't hammered at that point. We don't know if Drixx was avlibabe to hammer Math, but his last post was directly after vote count 4.63, and there is nothing to show that he was around when Math was Wagoned to L-1.

Nothing on these pages expressly points towards Math being scum in retrospect. I generally would expect a player like Math to handle things better then jumping from Gamma to Penguin then awkwardly onto Drixx. Considering that the bus doesn't get Math town cred I don't see why Math bothers here.

[Grendel]

I once played a game with scum Math and imeadatley after bragging about they strong bussing they decided to be resolutely anti-bus in thier pt for the rest of the game. Math made some remarks on their bussing this game, idk if that would impact things at all.

@Math

If my assumptions about how you bus are wrong or have notiable exceptions please explan and link some games.

If I had more time I'd try to a little meta diving on my own but... you know... time.

I guess if Gamma has some good examples of games he played with scum!Math now would be a good time to bring those up too.

[Grendel]

One last thing before I run for the day.

@Math

He's scummy as fuck trying to buddy me felt weird and never recovered.

Reactions to PR claims are not Town Gamma.

He feels wrong

#caseBeforeDriving

Where was Gamma buddying you?

I don't recall that happening.

[Grendel]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Grendel]

Go ahead and release the scum pt RC!

Is this really going to be your last game here?

[Grendel]

Go ahead and release the scum pt RC!

Is this really going to be your last game here?

That bus though daaaaamn

I am impressed.

I've only bussed a few times my whole mafia career, (I believe this is the first time that the bus lynched a buddy, usally I bite the bullet for the team), so I'm pleasantly surprised that it worked out as well as it did. It probably had more to do with nancy no bussing in every other scum game of hers then anything I did. Her last minute distancing from me+ being on her lynch saved my butt the next couple days.

Overall I think that I was playing above my normal scum game here. I'd usually never want/allow myself to go deep as scum because being scum leaves me brunt out. I probably sound like a broken record at this point since I say that every scum game I'm in.

Anyway, Thank you Math!

Maybe one of these days we'll actually roll the same alignment.

Its too bad we didn't roll the same alignment.

[Grendel]

lol, I meant to erase the last line for the second to last one because I thought it rolled better. The repletion was an accident.

Oh well.

[Grendel]

I'm pretty sure Alisae gravitates towards scum reading anybody that wall posts.

Still the 3/3 reads in the spec/dead thread is impressive.

[Grendel]

I WAS USELESS

I really liked that gambit you utilized.

You also did a great job looking OB!town, if a couple more players were acting as OB!Town as you were the last few days I would have been sunk.

If I were town this game I would have tried town bloc-ing with you for sure.