Normal 1934: Civilization Mafia Mafia (Endgame)

[Vecna]

Good day ladies and gentlemen. I have read the game (because not reading up is rather lame), and have drawn the following conclusions about the game state. Sadly, I feel this is going to be a difficult game for town. Upon reread I have gotten very few of my usual tingles where im rather certain someone is scum based purely on gut/meta reasons. There are a few people that scream town to me, but this group is still rather small. A lot of potential scum players here could be hiding behind a well established town-meta of themselves that shouldnt be too hard to fake for some of these people. That combined with the fact theres a rather large group of players in this game that I do not know.....will make this troublesome. Some potential for a repeat of the actual civ game. Anyways, my current impressions:

Korts

- Seems to give off a pretty strong town-vibe. Picks up on the same stuff I noticed, sensible posts, doesnt appear to be faked.

Ginngie

- Not quite certain, but purely based on the scum meta ive seen from GT this has potential to be going to lean towards town soon.

Vecna Aristophanes

- Gotta love replacing into a slot that hasnt done much and is already under suspicion

humaneatingmonkey

- Minor minor vibes of potential scum focussing really hard on appearing towny. Posts overall seem pretty sensible, but theres just that minor feeling that somethings up here. Its not a strong feeling though.

Eddie Cane PersephoneSidekick

- This feels very towny to me. The newby under pressure, the responses - all yelled town to me quite hard. The eddie Cane replacement probably didnt do the slot much good in terms of how others are going to be reading it, but I still saw very little there that causes me to think this slot is scum.

Sunlit Diamond Draynth

- Sensible posts that feel pretty town, mixed with a bunch of posts where im less certain about it. Could be scum in hiding, but if so, its a scum doing a pretty good job of rambo-style hiding out in the woods shit.

Robbnva

- Pictured green for doing the exact same stubborn crap ive seen him do in my last game. I think ill refer to this person as stubborn male-mathblade light. Feels pretty genuine in the stubbornness, but it would be something thats fakeable.

Kaboose

- Unknown player to me, but this slot is definately part of the scum pool for giving me very little reasons to townread the slot. Hasnt done any posts yet that make me go "yep this definately came from town".

massive

- Could be scum. Same as kaboose-slot really, but a more dangerous version if scum. Suspicion + attention required

Dark Horse

- Some posts with bite, but also a lot of posts that are very "under-the-radar" type of playstyle. Need to see more.

Assemblerotws*

- Same crap this slot does every game, where every post is like a relic in a museum - ultra rare, but still rather boring. Could be scum hiding behind this annoying established meta. Annoying slot since itll have to be some policy lynch crap unless we get a way to clear it. This is the type of slot we want to have any cop-type of investigates investigate imo.

nancy*

- Feels very detached so far this game. Whats up Nancy? Do that thing you did in the original please where youre the easy townread of the game.

Tchill13

- Undecided, but could be scum. Just finished a game where I was wary of the slot as well during the first 1-2 days, but it became a lot more solid during the later game. The day1 here feels like a worse version of that game, but still somewhat similair - but im not sure yet whether its due to it being scum or town thats under pressure.

[Vecna]

Nancy, still around to converse with me some?

[Vecna]

People just look for different things when deciding what is scummy behaviour Robb, not everything is as black and white.

Not sure if im super excited about any of these wagons. A Tchill scumflip would be quite usefull here, but im not sure if im super excited about the way the wagon came to be.

[Vecna]

In my experience, wagons on scum day1 are a lot more prone to go through quickly since scum will wanna bus to look good themselves, while if its a wagon thatll probably go through on town -on average- theyre more likely to distance, white knight etc etc. Doesnt always apply ofcourse, but quite often scum are scared of being on mislynch wagon together. Id say wagons on town usually tend to go a lot slower than on scum because of this.

I think the rob wagon is nonsense, and more based on people reacting to his playstyle which they dont like than actually being based on them thinking he is scum.

The chill wagon - I disliked the reasons why a bunch of people were voting him. Like, people using the way he voted some guy to push that wagon, and then swapped quickly......and then someone comes in to claim he got told off in scumchat, and to vote elsewhere? Like really? I dont remember particularly who used that reasoning, but that was pretty dreadfull imo. As I stated above, I also dont particularly like your reasoning monkey - claiming someone is scum because the wagon doesnt gain traction quicker is a line often used by scum I feel, and if used by town is often based on flawed logic. I wouldnt mind a lynch on Tchill overly much, but the reasoning provided by people for their votes has been pretty weak. But it being day1, its not that surprising. I'd probably find it hard to voice proper reasoning myself since its more of a gut feeling that something might be off there, and that his meta feels maybe slightly more scared than ive seen before, than anything that has been stated before.

[Vecna]

Thats a tad bit dramatic Robb

[Vecna]

Sup gin

[Vecna]

Yes, I completed a game with him very recently. I had trouble reading him correctly early game there as well, but as the game progressed he got more and more easy to read.

[Vecna]

We should get him to live communicate with a bunch of people at once - I feel that if he's town and he gets into a flow of talk with people his thought process will make his allignment very blatantly clear.

Id say we should try to set that up to be able to decide if where this current lynch is going is the correct course of action.

Tchill, you down for that?

[Vecna]

In my mind I have this triangle-shape like this;

Tchill - Korts
\ /
Monkey


And where there is probably 1 scum in the 3. Monkey being scum, ruling out the other 2 as being scum, Tchill being scum ruling out the other 2 as scum etc. Based on the way these 3 slots have been interacting. Korts has been rather critical of Monkey, both of them have been quite on Tchill. The way all of their interactions have been feel rather genuine, and either TvS or SvT - but not really like theyre scum teammates putting on a show.

[Vecna]

Well that triangle shape got dun fucked up

[Vecna]

im not sure whether im buying that you genuinely think you alteady caught 2 scum this early gin....

[Vecna]

That monkey avatar is just too damn adorable

Also, im quite sure using your play in other games (that are very much ungoing) is some sort of rules-violation

[Vecna]

Yeah, see in the original Civilization game a guy used that exact same line....and he was scum. It does happen, and if you bring it up in the game, it affects the game and is going to be discussed.

Not saying that you are scum, or making it up, or anything - but that is just the way it is. AtE is a used strategy in this game

[Vecna]

We're getting derailed trying to give Robb advice and we aren't actually hunting scum.

After reading Vecna's posts this page, maybe nancy was right about Aristo after all.

id like to see you put into actual words why you feel this way as opposed to just piggybacking off of what nancy said before about my slot.

[Vecna]

i didn't realize robb deathtunnels stupidly in most games. after skimming a couple of his other games and rereading him here he might be town. i didn't see any of his scum games in my skim. if someone actually told me this was a regular occurrence.... lol I am disappointed in yall.

that said, he's refusing to interact or acknowledge me. i try to big the biggerperson and he replies with basically the ewuivalent of shut up. its very disappointing because most people I try and change my read on are more mature and if he's going to continue to act like this it's probably just scum not wanting to change a read. could just be town who can't control emotions but idk. right now id say I have robb 60/40 town and 80/20 odds on him replying this saying I'm still scum or not replying.

VOTE: sd

sd has pinged me a fair bit. right now I'm waffling on voting Korts, ginngie, monkey and sd. ginngie is pushing garbage and has a weird ass overconfident attitude but I can see that as personality and I don't want to get in a shouting match with them rn. similarly, I have some scum vibes on korts, but I've mostly just seen town reads expressed and additionally I imagine trying to lynch korts will be an ordeal I don't have the time for before deadline. maybe next day if my read gets stronger. for now I also see town notes but id say he's like 60/40 scum. don't like the lamisty bitching about posts in the slightest either. monkey is probably the one Im closest to voting after sd (along with massive). considering I'm voting sd without any reasoning given I'm curios how this'll go.

I'll post more tonight or tomorrow depending how late I get off tonight. this is a quick flphone post equivalent for post count


also pedit: sorry rc. I'll pm.

thats why i -did- tell you just that eddie dearest.

[Vecna]

also eddie - why are you so confident that everyone voting tchill is wrong? please explain that because from where im standing tchill hasnt done anythibg worth townreading.

[Vecna]

Theres a good reason for my 425 Sunlit diamond. In my last game with Tchill (Boonskies something something game) - there was a moment where 3 players, including Tchill started live talking for literally 10 pages. It resulted in 3 very solid townreads on all 3 slots, and helped town win that game very easily after that. Nothing lamist about it, just wanting to see if Tchill can generate that kind of genuine flow of thought again this game, since I do believe itll make him easy to read.

[Vecna]

VOTE: HumanEatingMonkey

Having said that, I feel this is a pretty alright vote/lynch for today that also quite a bunch of people have expressed interest in. Lets see if theyre willing to back up those words.

[Vecna]

Massive, how do you feel about that strong townread that Korts just outted on your slot?

Do you feel your play so far has been deserving of such a read?

[Vecna]

Korts, I would like some more clarifications from you;

What posts in particular from Dark horse were you agreeing with so strongly? His posts all have felt ratherr like stating the obvious, and as things that scum could also superficially state. Id like you to pay some special attention to Dark Horse read's on the Eddie slot here, since it feels youre rather contradicting yourself stating that you agree with his posts, while at the same time youre reading the Robb vs Eddie interactions completely different from Dark Horse.

why are you so fascinated with me trying to get a wagon on monkey going? You were stating distrust on the slot yourself, and your recent post isnt taking that away completely. How is it so unclear to you why im voting the slot, while apparently you've felt the same level of suspicion? One could think you were distancing yourself from the slot and are now coming back on that since you dont want to start bussing it quite this early?

[Vecna]

VOTE: Tchill

I want to see this flip now. Either im completely wrong and Tchill is scum, or theres something fishy going on with Kort, monkey and massive.

[Vecna]

UNVOTE: Tchill

Well that explains the slight differences with our last game in playstyle I guess.

[Vecna]

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

[Vecna]

Whats up with that vote Ginn? why are you pretending its ok when you vote a town PR, but its suddenly a bad thing when someone else does it?

Also Tchill, why are you suddenly scumreading me?

[Vecna]

How am i misrepresenting anything?

[Vecna]

I mean unannounced L-1

By Vecna

Also, since when does putting someone on L1 get announced upfront? Also, if youre reading my posts you'll find plenty of posts indicating I was fine with lynching the slot.

[Vecna]

Yo Tchill, if youre actually a PR youre gonna come in here and discuss stuff, and not run away again and hide right after claiming like that. If not were gonna be finding out whether your bullshitting or not.

[Vecna]

I never once said any reason why I scum read you.

Literally anything you say about my opinion is literally false.

Straw man because your argument requires us knowing Tchill was a PR before he claimed that.

Youre literally voting me for voting Tchill. So I ask you why that is a justification after you were voting him as well - or to supply your reasoning for doing so if that is not the case. That is all that happened here, you can throw around fancy terms all you want, but its you doing the misdirecting.

Why the sudden vote for me?

[Vecna]

I mean unannounced L-1

By Vecna

Also, since when does putting someone on L1 get announced upfront? Also, if youre reading my posts you'll find plenty of posts indicating I was fine with lynching the slot.

Literally every Mafia game you announce.... you're experienced enough to not be that dumb

My vote actually put him at L-2 btw, so im really not sure why were even discussing this nonsense.

[Vecna]

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

VOTE: Vecna

:3

What, a statement like that makes me scum? That certainly is a contender for most rediculous reasons ive ever witnessed here.

[Vecna]

Can you stop playing dumb?

No, youre the one acting dumb. Explain your actions and why you were lying about me putting him on L-1 to begin with, and why youre voting me out of the blue.

Me stating he's not shooting anyone after he put a vote on me seems rather logical from my pov, me being town wouldnt you think?

[Vecna]

Wonderfull. Youre wrong though, but I guess if youre too -bored- to give me a chance to prove you wrong then......woo. Good talk

[Vecna]

VOTE: Tchill

Hey Tchill, I asked you to come in and not disappear after you just made some hasty claim. I can see youre still online

[Vecna]

Well then how about you engage me in a discussion? Instead of taking the chicken route and going "im too bored"? Stating you expected a bit more of a fight after you basically just surrendered is a bit hypocritical

[Vecna]

Anyways lets actually put Tchill on L-1 now. He needs to be the one explaining himself here, not me.

Instead he throws out a premature claim, votes the next most likely target and runs away.

You dont think thats slightly suspicious of the guy that you've built large cases on Gin?

[Vecna]

Even if I did it would be better to get you talking and wrap a noose around your own neck, wouldnt it?

At any rate, im not used to all these gimmicks from you - and ive never seen anything the like while you were playing scum in my games.

[Vecna]

Anyways lets actually put Tchill on L-1 now. He needs to be the one explaining himself here, not me.

Instead he throws out a premature claim, votes the next most likely target and runs away.

You dont think thats slightly suspicious of the guy that you've built large cases on Gin?

You're voting a town PR that can prove himself...

You can't push a scum win coin harder than that

My vote aint lynching him, and like Ive stated before - Tchill has the ability to talk himself out of nearly anything as town. Yet, he chose to hide behind a claim instead, while he had ample opportunity to use words instead (and do so in a much earlier stadium as well) and remain hidden.

Im not buying that he's a town PR untill he comes in here and convinces me.

[Vecna]

Well, ive only played one game with him, and there he was also inactive and apologetic, and iirc he even replaced out of that one as well. You can check code geass if youre so inclined.

At any rate - your meta is wrong here.

[Vecna]

Vecna you can't demand someone's attention like that lol. I've said what needed to be said. You revoting me is absurd. What exactly do you want me to explain? I thought I was at L-1. How the actual heck can I convince you I'm a town PR. I was gonna try to survive as mislynch bait so scum wouldn't kill me. Does that convince you?

I want you to explain your vote on me for starters, while you were townreading me before when I was actually trying to put off the wagon on you. What about my reasoning do you think would not come from town-vecna.

[Vecna]

Apparently still not enough to get a good read on the slot if you think he was scum there Gin. Which I guess you didnt though, since you never stated any such thing.

[Vecna]

What if we make a quote wall saying "he can shoot someone, dumbass"

You should probably leave this one to rest

[Vecna]

Apparently still not enough to get a good read on the slot if you think he was scum there Gin. Which I guess you didnt though, since you never stated any such thing.

Hey hey, wanna know a secret?

Spoiler:

i don't give a fuck

The way you keep repeating the point, talking about it, and launching attacks at me......kinda tells a different story.

But I guess that wouldnt be as cool, in a grade 5 schoolyard bad-ass type of way.

[Vecna]

No thats a pretty good excuse if it helps me solve the game. Besides, you were scummy. Everyone has said so. I have said so as well - your flip would give a lot of information either way.

And yes, after last game I am disappointing you didnt do much more of what you did there. A claim here (if you are indeed town) was rather unnessacery.

[Vecna]

Thats not my point Tchill. You couldve done a lot better job towntelling earlier - THATS my point.

Anyways, help me turn this around and direct this lynch into a proper one to salvage this day.

[Vecna]

And what info would that be exactly?

[Vecna]

Wonderfull. Youre wrong though, but I guess if youre too -bored- to give me a chance to prove you wrong then......woo. Good talk

This is a horrible reaction.

You're basically rolling over going meh.

I expected a little bit more of a fight from you tbh

Makes two statements like that, and runs away and leaves an undefended vote on me.

Consider me disappointed as well gin.

[Vecna]

Hey Tchill ill make you a deal.

We lynch my target today, you help me convince everyone to sheep me, and if I fail to lynch scum with it, you shoot me tonight. Alright?

After last game you should know my instincts are pretty good when it comes to these things.

[Vecna]

Nah im not talknig about monkey

[Vecna]

Anyways, im also a town PR, with a skill that can be confirmed tonight. Good job ringing up another one with shit all reasoning.

Not gonna claim any more to not make it too easy on scum, you'll know more tomorrow.

In case you do end up lynching me - Kort & massive are scum here together. Lynch them next

[Vecna]

Monkey -might- be scum with them, but I doubt itd that inter-connected.

[Vecna]

VOTE: Kort

[Vecna]

Tchill if they do end up lynching me; do believe me when I say that Korts is this game's Vedith. Noone is going to be lynching him anytime soon - give him a bullet tonight.

[Vecna]

Shouldve read between the lines Gin - I left you a very obvious hint

[Vecna]

Youre trying too hard to be a wisdom clone.

You dont quite have the chops to pull it off yet.

[Vecna]

Recent devellopents, and that big read post he put up full with attempts at pocketing people.

Overall he's too busy trying to appear good and plausible over actually really putting in a genuine effort to sort people.

Read for example his justification on his read on massive and you. Complete bollocks. And in the case of massive I highly suspect he's writing it about his scum teammate.

[Vecna]

You were suspicious and critical of PS in all your early posts - which is the same slot. Yet he states he has a very strong townread on you because he "felt the same way about pretty much all the stuff you said". Yet it doesnt correspond at all with his reads was my point. Another example of him just trying to state things that he think will sound good and plausible, while if you look deeper they dont really hold up.

And no offence, but do you yourself feel you've stated so many things that were so sensible that a strong townread was warranted? Because I definately dont feel that way. But hey, maybe im wrong and a lot of other people also feel that they can have a strong townread on your slot based on vibing well with your posts. Myself however, I often felt the exact opposite of your statements, so hearing someone state that they agreed with everything you said makes me suspicious.

[Vecna]

Like if anything it sounds like you're trying state things that you think will sound good and plausible, but if you look deeper they don't really hold up.

Hmmm upon more *ahem* carefull....reading of your iso it turns out this point of mine mightve indeed been a bit flawed.

[Vecna]

I want to see this flip now. Either im completely wrong and Tchill is scum, or theres something fishy going on with Kort, monkey and massive.

Vecna, do you still believe this? Yes, I know you're voting Korts. Curious about the rest of it, and the nature of this "something fishy" that you see.

Let me try and explain my thought process to you - and hopefully it makes sense.

My initial suspicion was mainly on Monkey and Massive - as you noted yourself I was townreading Kort

Then the following happens; some more people express theyre also suspicious of Monkey, including Kort. I vote him, stating something along the lines of lets see where this goes, it seems there might be some good will to get this slot lynched.

Then Kort pops in, suddenly states he is feeling better about Monkey, and starts attacking me for voting Monkey. Note, at this time im also actively trying to stop the Tchill wagon from going through.

Now in my mind, this is fishy for a number of things; Kort decides to a; go back on his earlier read while it -might- be getting traction (this never happened though) - and b: attack the one person that is trying to turn his wagon on Tchill (whom claimed PR soon after) onto monkey. As I stated before, this could very well (and that is what I did) be interpreted as someone early soft-bussing their teammate, doing some distancing from it - but being unwilling to see him lynched day1. I felt he had some pretty strong criticisms levelled at monkey to suddenly let go of them so easily. This was the reason why I did that silly talk about the triangle, because the way these guys interacted I felt there was no teamconnection there. And then, Kort went 180 on that read.

Then kort posts a reads-list, with his biggest townreads on people I really dont see as strong townreads myself whatsoever. He posts that weird detailled read on Massive, stating something strange as "Oh if he's scum were in soo much trouble, but luckily I dont think he is". Another bell goes off in my head.

The Dark horse thing/read he expressed also rang wrong for me as I just explained - allthough I was mostly wrong on this point.

His scumreads also felt totally opposite from my scumreads. A scumread on me I know to be wrong. A scumread on Assemble, basically for lurking (which he does in every game), and a scumread on you - which I also do not agree with.

All in all my suspicions are indeed strong. I dont feel the same as kort anymore about a great many things. I could see a bunch of these things come from town, but they are also all very well explained by a very carefull and elaborate scum player.

[Vecna]

anyways its my bedtime.

Current thoughts;

2 scum in Monkey/Korts/Massive

1 scum elsewhere (Nancy/assemble/Grendle)

[Vecna]

Alright I'm caught up finally; I flat don't believe Vecna's claim at all; literally nothing about the way he claimed is town and if he did have a confirmable pr I think he would be a fuck of a lot more indignant about being run up than he has been; the kind of survivalism that he's displayed in the claim is something that I think is far more likely to come from scum and what basically amounts to a sigh of regret in 555 isn't something that I find believable at all from a PR who knows that they can confirm themselves through night actions. Not interested in lynching anywhere else today; the claim aside I think he's completely flat tonally, I dislike his progressions, I dislike his votes, I dislike basically everything coming from that slot right now.

I think the way he entered with a scumread on me is pretty sketchy given that I think I've been pretty transparently town this game and was the only slot pushing him at that point in time; Civilization was months ago and I was a newbie and VI back then, absolutely no way I should be playing like that anymore - think if Vecna were town he would be pretty happy to see the development in my play rather than scumread me for it in the way that he has; pretty obvious difference I think in his treatment of that compared with the way monkey has been overall hesistant about it and has actually engaged with it critically overall - especially considering how recent my game with monkey was.

I dislike the way that he's tried to play up the Korts/monkey/massive trio as something to orient his reads / the gamestate around; it feels like faux-scumhunting and I think it's a pretty easy way to posture around scumreading a slot you've stated a townread on and just a fake way to hold scumreads in general; the progression from his entrance where Korts looks like a pretty strong townread to 489 to voting Korts isn't one that makes sense to me at all; 577 feels pretty ad-hoc overall and I don't think someone having different reads than you do is good reasoning at all and not something that Vecna would scumread if he were town.

The way that he's interacted with Tchill feels particularly sketchy in that he initially came in saying that the reasoning for scum!Tchill was pretty poor then moved to voting him right after Korts started pushing that wagon again; think the way that unvoted and suddenly seemed fine with Tchill's play after the vigilante claim then voted him again for pretty much no reason at all is pretty bad. The way that he's engaged with Tchill overall from the claim to the appeasing and everything is just not something that makes sense coming from town pretty much ever. 540 and 543 in particular are just obscenely scummy.

Don't think he's actually given any substantive reasoning for his massive scumread or really any of his scumreads at all for that matter; haven't seen him display any kind of feeling about his townreads; think he's probably pretty content to scumread just about anyone here and nothing he's done so far has felt like he cares about solving the game so much as looking for slots he thinks he can lynch. Basically don't think there's anything from his play that could make me believe he's town here.

Youre really gonna claim I wasnt indignant after I got voted by Tchill and Gin for bullshit reasons? I saw this nonsense coming from a mile away, and was hinting towards gin allready I was a PR and he needed to fuck off to avoid my claim.

Youre really gonna claim you were a VI in the original civ game? All your posts here just feel like you put a lot of effort into them to sound credible - but very little of your posting actually is town here. Thinking youre "obv-town" here while you werent in the original civ-game is a joke, and shows some really poor judgement or bluffing on your part.

Ive stated all along that I think the Tchill wagon was a mistake, but I was alright seeing a flip to have ammo to go after my read scumreads in Massive/Korts/Monkey. If you think that sort of reasoning is ever gonna come from scum, youre delusional or scum yourself.

[Vecna]

Vecna do you have anything about me specifically that you find scummy, or is it all associative?

Its pure intuition and gut. Youre good enough to not leave a too obvious trail, and you havent posted enough yet for me to nail you down.

Youre scum though

[Vecna]

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

Thats my claim/hint I was talking about fyi. Im sure you can figure it out.

[Vecna]

At any rate, Nancy is scum here. That big wall post comes from scum knowing they need a lot of justification for lynching a PR. It fits very well in a pattern of only long well-crafted posts. What happened to your live interactions and free flowing thoughts you often displayed in civ Nancy?

[Vecna]

Vecna, you have yet to even get L-1, let alone get intent to hammer. Why did you jump the PR claim gun?

I was at L-1

[Vecna]

And when I voted Tchill, I did not put him at L-1. Thats why I was confused about why people were asking that I had to announce whatever. Yes I am aware that it is common courtesy that people should state such. Note however, that when I was put on L1 it wasnt stated either, This happened twice now. noone seems to give a shit about that though. Even when its done by a guy that could swear I was town pretty much on the last page and in nearly all of his posts.

Anyways im a Jailkeeper. I intended to jailkeep Tchill tonight hoping to confirm us both and save him from a kill, at the expense of him being able to shoot someone. Getting a bunch of negative attention towards myself was partially intended so scum would choose to kill Tchill, but clearly being forced to claim was not, since the plan is shot to shit now regardless.

[Vecna]

Imagine that I hadnt claimed....who is scum going to kill? Vecna under pressure, or a claimed gunsmith? Or someone random?

Pretty unlikely they kill outside of the PR's right?

Either Tchill is town, and he was a rather likely NK....which would confirm both of us to be town, and me to have saved him and roleblocked him.

Or he is scum, and he'd only claim Vig if they actually do have a way to have a second nightkill. Having him claim that he shot someone and that it went through would out his lie in that case. Also if someone else on their team happens to be an extra killing role (not sure how likely that is in these sort of setups) then it also outs him as a lyar.

When I was forced to claim I had to do it in such a way to both try to save myself and still hope Tchill was a likely kill if he's telling the truth.

[Vecna]

Seems youre right, guess the unvoting and revoting going on mustve messed up my count. At any rate, it doesnt matter anymore since people seem intent on lynching me regardless what I say at this point.

[Vecna]

My point was that fakeclaiming a vig as scum would be a pretty decent option if you have a role that has a one-shot kill besides the nightkill, which you could even use as a fakeclaim if someone else on your team has such a role. Its a pretty far-fetched option ofcourse, but you'd need to have at least some sort of way to produce a second nightkill if fake-claiming townvig.

[Vecna]

So....who o who is gonna have the balls to mishammer the PR.

[Vecna]

So youre saying if theres 2 kills and Tchill is jailed it wouldnt confirm him as scum?

[Vecna]

Arent scum-(1shot) vigs ever a thing outside of theme games?

[Vecna]

No I wouldnt, thats why I claimed blank the way I did for as long as I could

[Vecna]

Ill need to know whether im a realistic possibility/target if I escape todays lynch for obvious reasons.

[Vecna]

@Grendel's last question

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

What if we make a quote wall saying "he can shoot someone, dumbass"

You should probably leave this one to rest

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

Also youre not shooting anyone tonight

VOTE: Vecna

:3

What, a statement like that makes me scum? That certainly is a contender for most rediculous reasons ive ever witnessed here.

What if we make a quote wall saying "he can shoot someone, dumbass"

You should probably leave this one to rest

[Vecna]

assemble is a good vig shot to verify tchill

I'll vote monkey

scum cannot have a vig in normal games vecna.

Are serial killers a thing in normal games?

[Vecna]

@Vecna could you explain your progression on Tchill please; I think the way that you said a Tchill scumflip would be useful then expressed dissatisfaction with the reasoning for Tchill scumreads despite not having anything more yourself is pretty ??? and I basically don't understand at all how you can be okay with lynching someone you think is town just so that you can see if there's something fishy going on with three other of your reads; information lynches are a pretty good way to lose games for town and win games for scum and I don't see you as a particularly bad town player so I'm not sure where you're coming from with that angle - this kind of relates to the way that I feel like you've been shopping for lynches more than genuinely trying to gamesolve in your ISO so far; also find the way that you were telling Tchill that you'd unvote him if he voted with you to be a little sketchy and I'm wondering if this is an interaction going back to your last game together or whether that's something that you regularly do when you're town. I don't understand how you can say that you're fine lynching Tchill because he exited thread then say later that you were only trying to get negative attention to save him; that just feels completely ad-hoc to me.

I don't understand why you think Tchill being a Vigilante explains the differences in his play or why you put the vote back on the slot when he doesn't stay in thread after claiming; if you did actually recognize why you could've been misreading him I don't see why that goes away a few posts later; the fact that you started pushing the slot again feels particularly unsettling to me considering that if Tchill is Vigilante then he's probably shooting you tonight; this again goes back to the way that I don't really feel like you have any genuine reads here - you seem to pretty much be twisting whatever you have at hand to suit your read; as an extension of that I don't think that 526 make sense as a justification for you there when Tchill seems quite a lot like lynchbait from the two games I've seen of him. Basically have a ton of problems with your treatment of Tchill here along with pretty much everyone else.

In response to 595, don't really feel like you've addressed my points here at all; not entirely sure I believe that you had the precognition to see Tchill/Gin voting you; think that if you had then you would've displayed the same kind of annoyance much earlier at whatever point you did have it - I'm not finding anything in your ISO that could suggest that line of thought from you and I don't see how 608 lines up with that at all; don't think that this amounts to any more than a deflection from you overall; don't think that softing PR makes your claim automatically real and I don't know that you should expect anyone else to feel differently; not sure where you're seeing me say that I wasn't obvtown in Civ - I think I played a very different game there and I don't think that anyone who has read that game can say with a straight face that I was anything but a VI for 90%+ of the game; I think that if you actually cared about reading me for alignment here you wouldn't make the kind of assumptions that you've made about my meta; think that the kind of reasoning you've shown wrt lynching Tchill is exactly the kind of thing that comes from scum; you've seemed pretty fine with Tchill being lynched overall and have been pushing his wagon and never really defending him so again I don't understand where you're coming from here; I think if I'm going to be able to see that you're town here you're absolutely going to need to walk me through your reads / progressions because so far I don't feel like I've gotten anything solid from you at all; you can continue to be grumpypants and whine about how my meta has changed and refuse to engage with me if you like but it's not going to help either of us if you're town. I'm probably unvoting you here if you're not counterclaimed by another protective and let night actions sort you but I absolutely need to see more from you than what you've given me so far because I think I'm probably being more than a little generous when I say that your play here has just been hot garbage.

Guess ill use one of my remaining 10 posts to try and adress this in-depth, piece by piece.

Im pretty sure ive already talked about my Tchill progression quite a lot. Ive been suspicious of him since the start, you can see so in my very first catching up post. In the very first post, I also state that I know ive been incorrectly suspicious of him in the past, and that as you state yourself, he is very lynchbaity in his playstyle during the early days. One of my concerns was that he was a lot less liberal in his "flabbermouthing" where everyhing on his mind is spoken. Being a town PR could account for that obviously.

I think the way that you said a Tchill scumflip would be useful then expressed dissatisfaction with the reasoning for Tchill scumreads despite not having anything more yourself is pretty ??? and I basically don't understand at all how you can be okay with lynching someone you think is town just so that you can see if there's something fishy going on with three other of your reads; information lynches are a pretty good way to lose games for town and win games for scum and I don't see you as a particularly bad town player so I'm not sure where you're coming from with that angle - this kind of relates to the way that I feel like you've been shopping for lynches more than genuinely trying to gamesolve in your ISO so far

I stated I felt the Tchill lynch would probably be a bad lynch, not because I thought he was town, BUT because I felt he becomes a lot easier to read as the days go by. Ive talked about the triangle before with Kort and Monkey, and ive been suspicious of all three in there. Lynching Tchill would give solid information, and in case of a scumflip it would soft-clear two people that I was rather suspicious of. Ive stated before that I felt the way monkey and Kort were pushing Tchill was no scum vs scum bussing - so either they were scum pushing town or the other way around. Also I disagree with you that information lynches are bad. Getting rid of scummy players, if they give you a ton of good information isnt a terrible move.

also find the way that you were telling Tchill that you'd unvote him if he voted with you to be a little sketchy and I'm wondering if this is an interaction going back to your last game together or whether that's something that you regularly do when you're town.

Actually, I stated he should sheep me to find scum - and if I didnt find scum that he should shoot me tonight. There was a little throwback to our previous game, yes, and ofcourse I knew even if I would fail to lynch scum I wouldnt actually get shot by him because id save myself by jailkeeping him (and potentially also protect Tchill himself if scum were to NK him). I really dont see how you can find this sketchy, since it is just more overwhelming proof that im indeed a jailkeeper. You really think scum would suggest such a thing?

I don't understand how you can say that you're fine lynching Tchill because he exited thread then say later that you were only trying to get negative attention to save him; that just feels completely ad-hoc to me.

I just wanted him to continue typing and not just claim and disappear in the way he did. I still feel that way, because his play after claiming and being granted clemency hasnt actually been very towny. Like I said, Tchill -has- the ability to become obv-town if he actually engages people. If he's town he needs to do that. If you have a problem with how im treating him - tough luck.

In response to 595, don't really feel like you've addressed my points here at all; not entirely sure I believe that you had the precognition to see Tchill/Gin voting you; think that if you had then you would've displayed the same kind of annoyance much earlier at whatever point you did have it - I'm not finding anything in your ISO that could suggest that line of thought from you and I don't see how 608 lines up with that at all; don't think that this amounts to any more than a deflection from you overall; don't think that softing PR makes your claim automatically real and I don't know that you should expect anyone else to feel differently;

That entire back and forth with Gin happened rather quickly, so im not sure how you'd want me to be annoyed before the fact? And I meant that I saw the big wagon on me coming from a mile away as soon as Tchill and Gin voted for me, thats how wagon momentum always tends to work - especially when the deadline is approaching. And if you dont see any annoyance in my posting since those two votes, you probably should stop trying to read into people their mindset. And about my claim, and the softing......im quite sure its rather blatant - whether that qualifies as "automatically real"....probably not, but then again nothing ever is in this game.

not sure where you're seeing me say that I wasn't obvtown in Civ - I think I played a very different game there and I don't think that anyone who has read that game can say with a straight face that I was anything but a VI for 90%+ of the game; I think that if you actually cared about reading me for alignment here you wouldn't make the kind of assumptions that you've made about my meta;

I really dont understand why you think you were a VI in that game for 90% of the time. You played differently there, that Ill agree on. And the style you used in that game was a lot easier to read into. And why wouldnt I make assumptions about your meta? Ive stated that I dislike the change in playstyle because it makes you harder to read, and because this current playstyle could come from scum. The post im quoting here as well, has a lot of mischaracterising of what actually happened in it. And yes, id really like you to just post in the moment a lot more again - converse without the big wall posts, instant-responses, that sort of thing.

think that the kind of reasoning you've shown wrt lynching Tchill is exactly the kind of thing that comes from scum; you've seemed pretty fine with Tchill being lynched overall and have been pushing his wagon and never really defending him so again I don't understand where you're coming from here;

I wasnt overly thrilled with his wagon. Was it infinitely better than the counterwagon at that time (which was robb)? hell yes. And ive stated on several occasions that I wasnt thrilled with the wagon. I didnt feel the need to defend someone that I was suspicious of any more then that.

you can continue to be grumpypants and whine about how my meta has changed and refuse to engage with me if you like but it's not going to help either of us if you're town. I'm probably unvoting you here if you're not counterclaimed by another protective and let night actions sort you but I absolutely need to see more from you than what you've given me so far because I think I'm probably being more than a little generous when I say that your play here has just been hot garbage

Im pretty sure that if my play ever becomes all sunshine-like id be lynched on the spot. I probably couldve done a better job dodging the spotlight to avoid having to claim, but such is life. Whether my reads are bad has yet to be seen.

[Vecna]

Wtf

Did you guys really run up another PR to a claim, when Vecna is obviously just trying to bullshit himself out of a corner?

So what youre really saying is that an uncc'd verifiable town PR should be lynched without any counter-wagon whatsoever?

Stating im trying to bullshit my way out of a corner is really a wonderfull generic statement to make, but im starting to feel more and more that youre actually indeed just ignoring anything I have to say because youve already made up your mind.

In what world would a town PR in my position not be trying to talk himself out of getting lynched? You'd prefer if your town PR's in all your games would always just lay down and die?

Id like to see a proper gamestate post from you before deadline. One where you analyze stuff beyond my slot. If im scum, then who is currently bussing me? Who is protecting me?

[Vecna]

VOTE: Massive

Flashwagon this please

[Vecna]

I guess its possible that theyre white-knighting/pocketing me, but their posts defending me seemed pretty well thought out overall. Overall theyre both weak-moderate townleans and I wouldnt really wanna wagon them today.

[Vecna]

Keep making up excuses to keep your vote on me guys. Better start preparing your stupid face for tomorrow though. But hey, im sure its all "my fault".

[Vecna]

And for those still needing some convincing that im town and that Kort's has a really weird way of reasoning here;

Compare his response to my "implosion" and the way he totally ignores the fact that monkey just claimed after 3 votes, and makes a big deal of people "running him up".

Dont forget that later on, especially since he started scumeading Monkey early on, but when pressure built on that slot he suddenly started townreading the slot and defending it by attacking the people voting there.

VOTE: Monkey

[Vecna]

"bah!"

[Vecna]

How korts and nancy lived that long after the most scumread towny ended up dead N1 is still a bit of a mystery to me

Also, meanie alisae in the deadthread