Mini Normal 1952: Dragon's Dance [OVER - PERFECT SCUM WIN]

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*lurks harder*
VOTE: Thestatusquo

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i know this is sooo overdone but i'll ask the question: why'd you point it out, LQ?

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I'm feeling Lalendra, LQ town. May commit to a short meta-dive on those players in the early game, in the near future

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VOTE: Tchill
Shea and others join me on this wagon and we shall ride to great justice

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1) Fact remains that Tchill is still a fine wagon as someone who has had 7 posts to advance the game but has actually done almost nothing.

2) Havo's 31 is unnecessarily chip-on-shoulder. Unfortunately I couldn't find any scum games from him, so there's really nothing to look into there (and perhaps there wouldn't be anything to look into even if there were scum games to read). But early Havo ISOs in other games have him being pretty personable. Thoughts, Havo?

3) LQ's weird Lalendra analysis is pretty town. Fast look into LQ's normal games (from his very helpful wiki) makes me comfortable with that read.

4) Any pronouns are fine.

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LQ I don't think I really get any of the things you've said, well, ever really.

Self meta is nonsense.

You're right conceptually but also being unfair I think. Boon's response is fine in this context IMO.

Alright it's day one and we're on page 5 I'm not sure what I should be talking about yet. What do you want me to discuss?

I want to buy this because we've all been there, and I'm not, like, super scumreading you or anything. It's just some of the things you're saying display to me some sort of self-consciousness about being perceived as contributing to the game.
Post RVS: Your 27 is you agreeing with someone who is attacking a very easily attackable post.
Your 33 is you agreeing with what is basically an obvious thing to point out-- VT's don't claim.
Your 39 is another obvious thing to point out.

I hope you can understand why I'm looking at your ISO and thinking-- "this is a player who really doesn't want to seem like they're doing nothing, but also doesn't know how to effectively look like they're hunting for reads."

69 fart cave shweep de deep de doo

Put this on my tombstone.

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lol i talked myself back into it.

I know its a really stupid thing to be falling for if you're scum, but this deliberation into revote seems pretty transparently towny

tchill is reading like Vi to me

*insert quip here*

Notice how literally nobody voted errant.

I don't think this is really telling. You started a counterwagon but didn't provide any legitimate investment or pressure (which is okay but it's not like you should be expecting results) and you provided a justification that people didn't agree with.

--

VOTE: TheQuo
While I could vote one of the low-content ppl right now, I think it's fine to give them a little more time and space, so I'll float here for a bit.

Here's the hard and fast:
LQ/Lal/Chill I have some concrete reasons to feel are not scum at this point in time
LUV feels incredibly not-scum but IDK if I'm underestimating his scum game, and I might evaluate more closely in the future. We'll say town for now.
IDK about Havo but I would like an answer to 2) in 69 (it's not that important, but still)

schadd-- What I'm reading might just be a facet of his GD posting style. But I am wary of early townreads that seem confident ("LQ/ep townblock"). I think scum easily put forward that (and often do) in early game as a non-harmful way to seem engaged and productive. In the end, that's not really a reason to be scumreading someone.

Shea, I think your LQ push is questionable.

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What part of it do you not like? What do you think the motivations for the actions I am attacking him for are likely to be?

I don't think your LQ case is founded on solid ground at all--
(here I typed out a paragraph about why your case was bad but when I went back and read it, it seemed more and more like just a playstyle difference and now i'm not very sure)

But to summarize what I was going to say:
LQ obviously does weird stuff and I think thats something you have to take into account. Town is illogical/bad/dumb all the time. The only difference I see between Tchill's unjustified vote that resulted in you VI-reading him and LQ's unjustified vote that resulted in you scumreading him, to me, looks like a real reach to find motives that I strongly believe comes from scum a lot less than you think it does

(or I could just be overestimating LQ and he's actually terrible at scum?!)

As for why I townread LQ:
1) He's dominating the game in a way that makes me really feel like he's town without a filter.
2) I know meta is very unreliable especially with such a small sample size but I use it to ground my early game reads-- looking at his town and scum games, I get the sense that he tries to be helpful more when he's scum, trying to take a strong supporting role with questions and pushes. (This is very common for people when they play scum I feel). There's none of that here.
3) Some of his posts, like 26, are something I can't really imagine coming from scum.

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Why are you arguing why I am Town and not why tsq is Scum?

cause Egg asked me

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Errant or licketey quickety what do you think of acid?

Was actually thinking of maybe voting him until 148 which was something i summarily agreed with and now I'm slightly more hesitant
I feel like there's something I'm missing here-- definitely townreading at least one scum imo

Egg: In response to our LQ discussion--
1) I think "unfiltered" sort of roughly matches up with "town." Scum playing like they're unfiltered are always filtering at least something, I feel. I don't think that's what's happening here. I acknowledge I could be wrong on this.
2) Yup :>
3) I dunno, doesn't it seem like such a careless thing for a hypothetical scum to throw out there? Does LQ scum normally open with something like "yeah I'm stupid and say stupid things?"

Guess I'll just quickly toss out some of my own list again

Some reasons to believe they're town: chill, LQ, egg guy
I'd like to think they're town, have some maybe doubts: LUV (maybe no doubt though?), acid
Generally agreeable but no real impression: Havo
Cannot be allowed anywhere near LYLO: tacos

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I'll be active in approx 4 (four) hours.
Interested in looking closer at lalendra
also Boon is another person who should be allowed nowhere near LYLO

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EP, have you looked at any of my Scum games?

I looked at one.

I'm super down for this

VOTE: Mumble
This reaction to pressure seems pretty bad here, lot of the wording seems like discomfort and honestly like weak response
"trying to throw shade here"
"My posts have helped me so far"
Second shea on lalendra here.

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Does anyone with good LUV experience/Shea have a reads justification on him
Bunch of people randomly saying he's town or he's scum without anything discrete i feel

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Unfortunately the earliest I can guarantee a response is 1730 PST

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1) Serg

does anyone have a read on serg other than "he's serg and lolserg null"

I need to reiterate that I will not

under any circumstance

accept an endgame outcome where serg is alive, and neither should anyone else.

2) Mumble

I take offense to this, because I do care. Quickety guy gets away saying its ridiculous for someone to scum read him based on his playstyle, but all of you jump on me for mine. It's annoying.

I scumread this post. However, contrary to what Shea thinks, I actually think that defeatism comes from town as often as it does from scum. I read it as null (and actually think from experience it comes from town very very often due to the emotional toll mafia takes in general). I also think Shea is wrong on all three of his Mumble points in 566. LQ is actually spot on in 570.

3) Acid

The whole "spew your alignment" shenanigans makes acid look townier, but I'm still very unsure. The way that acid is approaching this game makes me seem he's very comfortable, which is pretty towny under mild/consistent pressure that I feel like would generally get a scum reaction. Ultimately it's a weak read :<

4) Havo

I would be very okay with a Havo lynch. He's getting frustrated by pressure on him and stagnating his approach to the game around it. Scum does that a lot. Over the past few pages my reads have actually developed closely in the direction of what schadd says in 468 -- acid townier, Havo scummier, and less confident about scumble. In the end I'm actually still okay with a mumble lynch, despite disagreeing a lot of the reasons people are bringing up for scumble, and my Havo read isn't actually strong enough to counter the inertia of my vote just yet.

5) LQ

I'm also feeling less confident about LQ town (but actually still pretty confident) but I'm also wondering if that's just my mind reacting to his posts just being unbearable to read. Not gonna lie, my eyes glaze over when I start reading them. As LQ put it, I'm one of those people that "don't even bother to try to" understand him. Sorry about that :X :X :X

6) Egg

I think we need to look at Egg a lot more critically. I'm not saying I scumread him but I think he's providing a lot less content than it looks like at face value. I think my impression of him overlaps a lot with where scum (or at least decent scum) often tend to be D1. Relatively proactive. Asks a lot of questions. Analytical. But

importantly

, a lack of paranoia, a lack of reads progression or gamesolving that reads as genuine, or anything about him that seems unassailably town.
If the game state remains relatively the same over the course of the game, Scum!Egg easily pulls off a win. Again, I want to reiterate that Egg isn't actually scum in my eyes, I'm just announcing my intention to read him a lot more carefully and asking other people who are writing off Egg simply being a good little townie to look more carefully as well.

7) Mod

I personally would prefer if mod didn't triplepost to get a pagetop VC. I personally don't think VCs being at the top of the page matter that much, ISO exists for a reason.

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Now that I've paid my dues as a player in this game with content I think I deserve at least one real shitpost so here is the most important readslist of the game: the dragons readslist.

TOWN
1.2 VC (Dragon on a mountain): Town for sure. They stand tall and are confident. Great town leader everyone should be sheeping.
1.3 VC (Chillmaw): Not enough content to be sure but because of my Hearthstone bias I'll say town.
Opening Post (Dragon Group): They look menacing but I think they're just bad at towntelling. Null-town.
1.5 VC (Crystal Dragon): Well their posts are very transparent so I'll say town.
1.6 VC (Mega Charizard X): While this pokemon may be at the top of the OU tier lists, it's nowhere near the top of this one. null-scum
1.7 VC (Circle Dragon): Lot of circular reasoning and honestly most of the posts are incomprehensible to me, scum
1.4 VC (Magma Dragon): I'll say scum but I won't reveal why mwahaha
1.1 VC (Ice Dragon): That dragon has done nothing to advance the game and you know it. Scum.
SCUM

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I don't have time nor energy to respond at the moment but let it be known that I have a response that i will type later
that basically sums up to-

Maybe I didn't express myself well enough but I think that LQ and mumble responded to pressure differently (from both each other and from Havo) that I think is quite telling in a way that makes Havo seem more suspicious in my eyes. I have quotes to back this up and while I think that Shea is being perfectly reasonable saying he thinks the same about Mumble as I think about Havo, I also think that he is wrong.

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Now I have you on the edge of your seats! What could the difference possibly be?!?!?
Tune in next time to find out

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Before I read any of the new posts I'm gonna address the first issue at hand. It's a long post so I'll highlight the main points.

First note that I think that when reading people we should look at things holistically because rarely is there one thing that makes someone 100% town or scumread.
I'll say there is usually one single specific reason at the crux of most fairly confident reads from me. But with less confident reads, most of the time it's me reading a bunch of things that tend towards one alignment (but can individually come from either) and Havo is one weaker read. Hope that makes sense.

I know it's unfair because

some of the stuff that LQ is saying is so blatantly illogical (and following that I would be contextually okay with an LQ lynch on D1 if we needed to push lynches through)

----

Addressing 597 by Havo.

I want to start by responding to how you describe LQ in 399.
"you went APESHIT!! At the mere mention of a WAgon on you."
Is that weird? Is that scummy enough to bring over again and again, getting agitated when people don't see it your way? Is that scummy enough to base an entire push on LQ over? No, it's really really not.

Town goes APESHIT!! all the time.

All the heckin time. Every single game there's that one town guy that blows up/gives up/gets angry, and that's not an exaggeration.

Regardless of whatever is said people who want to discredit my argument because "too scummy to be scum" is a bad argument? The fact remains that

scum's top goal in this game is to survive.

They don't want to draw attention to themselves on D1. I can count the people that can use emotion/blowing up to legitimate great effect as scum on one hand. Town blows up all the time. I strongly dislike that you're using this as the crux of your push on LQ.

And I find it situationally odd how you react to LQ's post.

In reality there really isn't that much pressure on you during the entire LQ/Havo battle.

LQ's wagon has consistently been higher than yours, along with Mumble. Maybe I'm misremembering this, but

you take LQ's case, which is transparently terrible and illogical from my point of view and pick it apart.

The way I see it, you tear it to shreds and don't know what to do when LQ stubbornly pushes onward. And rather than moving on, ignoring that light pressure, and effectively defusing by directing your attention elsewhere, like engaging your other scumreads? You start focusing the majority of your attention on LQ. Reiterating stuff over and over. I've been scum in that position and done the same thing because it's frustrating. That's why I think your actions potentially strongly align with scum here.

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And because I'm tired of typing, I'll just extend most of what I just said to Mumble. Don't think he's playing like someone whose win condition is centered around surviving.

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And yes-- good luck boon. I'm also generally in the area, and I'm sure there are other people you can turn to, but if you need anything, feel free to ask. My thoughts go with you.

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I'll go a little further here (feel free to completely ignore this post unless you're one of the many people that hates "too scummy to be scum" arguments

The fact remains that sniffing out lynchbait from mafia is a valuable skill and that situations that call for being careful because someone might actually be "too scummy to be scum" like mumble exist fairly often.

It's fair to say that quite often D1 wagons go on someone who is lynchbaity, surface level scummy. Someone who isn't proactive, contributing, etc etc etc. It's also fair to say that statistically D1 wagons go to town. I think there are many cases where someone who does stupid/dumb/illogical/unnecessarily emotional/etc etc etc stuff is town and I think that there is a way to read it.

Alternatively-- we're all just blindly throwing darts at a dartboard and it's all just random chance for most of us and I'm not egotistical enough to think I'm one of the people who does better than random chance

jk, for the most part

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I hope I'm not coming across as rude, but... I don't really want to spend the time noting, thinking about, or typing exactly where and how I disagree with you because I don't really think it matters.

But you're right if you felt like that post turned into an unnecessary amount of discrediting thrown your way and that wasn't my intention.
People are free to read your posts and make their own decisions about them. Doesn't really matter that much to me.

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No, see, it does kind of matter because otherwise it can look like you are actually trying to ensure my lynch without actually having a Scum read on me.

Weird, reachy accusation from someone who has me as their top townread?

I like Boon's set of posts

acid I think I missed your reasoning on why chill is your top scumread
Actually I'll say two things,
1) I'm worried that my townread on chill is stagnating from some early game interactions,
so 2) anyone who scumreads chill please let me know why so it saves me the trouble of figuring out why myself

Lmao at all these ppl that town read mumbles because he self voted and gave up.

It's not a reason to townread someone but I also don't think it's a reason to scumread someoneeeee

@Uzi, why are you posting so little?

??? ??

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??? ??

on second thought I take back these question marks, LUV has been incredibly low impact to me as a player

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i'm not saying boon is town, I'm just saying I like his reads because his reads are great.
LQ, could you respond to the thing that I said right before the line you quoted

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It's been like 4 days since we've had a votecount
And there are people that haven't posted in just as long
Is everything okay carca
Or at least can we have someone who is willing to backup mod

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I'm okay with voting mumbles after we get a votecount and I know where everyone's at

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Sorry about that mumble. I habitually lengthen and shorten usernames and i know sometimes people don't like it when their username is spelled a certain way so I should stop.

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I messaged Nexus to see if something can be done or if we should wait it out a bit longer.
In any case, I guess just keep playing in the meantime as best as can be done.

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I invested too much energy into this game if it doesn't continue. Lame. Has anyone PMed the list mod yet?

I have and we should be getting a resolution shortly. In any case-- I think Havo is a better wagon than Mumbles.

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Mumble. sorry. ._.