LoL eSports Discussion

[Voidedmafia]

I dunno.

Win NALCS to give fans false hope is a pretty fun storyline. I think you can argue scripted either way.

Well, it's rather obvious that NA is gonna do jackshit at MSI. That's just the way things roll.

Although, as far as a good showing in groups, you may have a point.

(I prefer reading the script as NA stomping everything either as the fav or the underdog and everyone else constantly going off-script)

[Voidedmafia]

game 5, baby!

[Voidedmafia]

Nope, not scripted.

P-EDIT: It did great, then it sucked, then it gave CLG a miracle teamfight win.

(although TSM kinda blundered into that one.)

[Voidedmafia]

that was an exceptionally entertaining series

True enough.

Still, I feel like TSM really misplayed that last teamfight. The initiation was poor, and they more or less just lined up for Stixxay to leapfrog from player to player.

[Voidedmafia]

Okay, correction. The initiation was fine, but on watching that reply I don't know why they decided to force the fight over just getting dragon and either having CLG come to them or just get out. Hauntzer's attempt to jump a near-full-health Tristana was still completely stupid, though.

[Voidedmafia]

I still think Hauntzer was a great pickup for TSM, though. He's been very good throughout the split and playoffs despite big blunders like that, so I do hope they endeavor to keep him.

(besides, that strict win/lose dichotomy happens a lot with Gragas and his Explosive Cask)

[Voidedmafia]

"find unproven talent"

Rush, Hai and Altec are proven talent though? (Balls needs to find his talent again, though)

[Voidedmafia]

And here I hoped CLG might've had a relatively easy path to being the 4th in with G2 underperforming and Supermassive obviously not making it.

How do you lose to the IWC, CLG?

[Voidedmafia]

It's their thing

Yeah...At the very least if they beat Supermassive again they can clinch 4th.

Meanwhile, yay FW! Another region has beaten SKT!

[Voidedmafia]

FUCK YES, CLG!

[Voidedmafia]

Okay, yknow. Aside from that stupid loss to Supermassive that should never have happened, I think CLG has been doing better than TSM would. TSM couldn't have beaten SKT, nor Faker.

[Voidedmafia]

Okay, crazy idea: top four of RNG, CLG, FW, and Supermassive? How likely?

[Voidedmafia]

Unlikely. Who would SU get their wins over?

SU/G2.

It would just be really crazy if SKT tilts so badly that they don't even make it out of groups. If G2 or Supermassive can get a win off the other and beat the Wolves, and if SKT loses to everyone but G2 and Supermassive in the back half, it's possible.

[Voidedmafia]

So, the plan is for supermassive to beat themselves. Got it.

No?

[Voidedmafia]

ani enjoyed making fun of your typo.

I didn't typo, though?

[Voidedmafia]

That was your typo.

That wasn't a typo. I amended my statement about the top 4.

if you're saying it's impossible for a team to beat themselves, G2 would like to disagree

True enough.

Also, are we watching the same CLG vs. RNG game? Because CLG is getting smashed.

[Voidedmafia]

I stand corrected.

HOLY FUCK HOW DID THEY WIN THAT?!

[Voidedmafia]

they definitely shouldn't have, but they did have significant scaling on their side.

Scaling or not, they should NOT have won that game. THey lost that game before 30 minutes, and I just can't understand how RNG threw what should've been an almost basic victory after that ace+Baron.

[Voidedmafia]

Still, Stixxay is more than proving himself as doublelift's successor. Daresay he's doing even better than DL ever did.

P-EDIT: Still, they could've turned it around at 5th dragon. The inhib fight was a mess, but salvageable. When they failed to get 5th dragon, the game broke.

Unfortunately, G2 has underperformed so much this tourney. If they could've just played better than getting two wins off of Supermassive, I could more believe that SKT wouldn't be in the top four. Granted, their biggest matchup in SKT is gone (I think), but there's no way they can beat RNG.

[Voidedmafia]

So the only way G2 stands a chance is if they beat SKT. I can see RNG going 2-0 against SKT, but G2 aren't CLG. Shame, though. Origen would've had a better showing.

[Voidedmafia]

Oh my god wtf was ren doing?

Cliff notes for those who don't trawl the lolesports site?

[Voidedmafia]

Was there some kind of massive insider trading or something?

[Voidedmafia]

Losing games to give fans false hope

So basically a reverse CLG?

[Voidedmafia]

Inverse, sorry.

[Voidedmafia]

CLG vs. SKT?

[Voidedmafia]

So far so good.

[Voidedmafia]

Yay sona was back!

[Voidedmafia]

Shame they didn't take a game off SKT. That would've been a nice cap.

(And does TSM winning IEM Katowice last year not really mean anything? I mean, it's not MSI or Worlds, but it's still an international tournament.)

[Voidedmafia]

I think TSM just vastly underprepared or something for MSI last year. I mean, you could argue that the competition was a bit low at the time, but even for a low bar against international teams (obv SKT and EDG, a more hyped FNC, and a pretty hot AHQ IIRC) they still underperformed far more than they should have.

[Voidedmafia]

biofrost new tsm support :O

Who is biofrost?

[Voidedmafia]

Biofrost did pretty good in his first two games, even factoring in how rusty CLG was.

I'd rather hold out judgment until Week 2, though.

[Voidedmafia]

How many fucking earth dragons did we see this week? I swear there was one literally every game.

[Voidedmafia]

holy FUCK that AD Jarvan.

Makes me want to play it top so much.

[Voidedmafia]

Good luck, pickem!

[Voidedmafia]

TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM

[Voidedmafia]

I have neither the funds nor the time to go, especially not up to Canada.

If they ever hold it near MIssouri, I'll consider it.

[Voidedmafia]

Fnatic has 4 zz'rot portals defending.

It still wasn't #80MinutesTheDream, though.

Tough game for Fnatic to lose.

[Voidedmafia]

Hard to win when something's coming up the wrong way.

It's probably gonna REALLY suck for Fox if they lose this game, especially after that failed nexus rush.

[Voidedmafia]

Welp, they still lost the match, but at least they won the game.

[Voidedmafia]

I think Fox is the worst team in the LCS. Froggen may still be an amazing mid laner, but they can't play or call like a team.

[Voidedmafia]

Phoenix finally wins a match! Hooray!

[Voidedmafia]

It seems like the only team who can beat TSM is Immortals at this point, at least in the LCS. I still hold my doubts as to whether or not any NA team can actually hold down Chinese/Korean teams, especially after CLG's practically imploded post-MSI.

[Voidedmafia]

Aphromoo the Bard King.

[Voidedmafia]

When the casters don't realize Mash flashed to make the return Boomerang Blade hit Ohq's Twitch.

[Voidedmafia]

Um...Always ban Rengar against Inori?

Holy shit, he hardcarried that game.

[Voidedmafia]

...Okay, TSM, what'd you do this time?

This is Coast vs. TSM all over again.

[Voidedmafia]

TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM

[Voidedmafia]

Wait, wait, who the fuck decided Sona Mid was back in vogue?

[Voidedmafia]

I did.

Betsy needs to remove you from his contact list, then.

[Voidedmafia]

I think Sona mid is a pretty niche pick that needs a good composition both for and against her.

Pretty sure that comp doesn't include Lucian and Trundle.

[Voidedmafia]

Also this TSM squad is probably the best hope the west has had at worlds since M5/CLG.eu

What about Fnatic last year? Or even Fnatic of S3? Sure, both would've had to go up against SKT, but still.

[Voidedmafia]

Fnatic is so lost now. Probly best if they don't get anywhere playing like this.

[Voidedmafia]

You have to wonder if things would've been different had they played Sunday like they should've. I think it's entirely possible the delay got to Fnatic a bit.

Given how H2K played I think they still would've lost, but it might've even gone 3-2 or 3-1 instead of a pretty clean sweep.

[Voidedmafia]

I mean, it couldn't have been any worse.

3 back-to-back-to-back complete shutouts? (No kills, towers, drakes, or barons)

[Voidedmafia]

G2, H2K, and Splyce are effectively the teams to go to Worlds, so...The only notable lines here are if Giants can go anywhere and how much of this Fnatic is a shadow of itself.

[Voidedmafia]

? I don't think this is correct at all. It may be the teams going, but I wouldn't confuse "perceived team strength now" as "these will be the teams to win out in the gauntlet."

I have very little doubt that h2k is not going to be the 2nd team after G2 (although given G2's performance at MSI I'm very

very

wary of them going regardless of their successes), and while I'll grant you Splyce may not be the 3rd, I don't really have much faith in any other team, especially after Fnatic's complete meltdown against H2k last week.

Giants don't have it in them to do it, I think.
Vitality idk about, admittedly.
UoL looked strong against Giants, but idk if they can take on either top seed in playoffs.

[Voidedmafia]

I wouldn't worry about G2 at worlds. They're a different team than the one who went to MSI.

Believe it when I see it, Zor. Believe it when I see it.

[Voidedmafia]

they literally changed 3 of their starting 5, and are planning a pre-worlds bootcamp
they could still play poorly but you're being stupid and I don't want you feeling validated if they suck because it won't be for the reasons you think

Last year TSM went into MSI almost as high as G2 did, and they crapped out in groups, and even though they stayed relevant in Summer they still did abysmal at worlds.

Before you go repeating your point here, yes, I know TSM didn't change their roster for Summer. I'm sure Zven and Mithy have, are, and will do wonders for G2 in the bot lane. But they jilted everyone hard at MSI, so you'll excuse me if I don't immediately put my hands in the air for them because I'd rather not be jilted like that again(and not just because I'm a TSM/Fnatic fan first and foremost).

And yes, I'm flying far higher due to how astounding TSM's turnaround from Spring (and hell, most of 2015 if we're honest) has been, but I want to see them get some good wins against non-IWC teams before I feel like I can keep my gaze skyward. The same is with G2, only I'm going to be looking down a lot more often because I feel like they're a lot closer.

(I never even said I wanted them to fail, btw, because I don't, so don't put those words into my mouth.)

[Voidedmafia]

Pedit - I WAS SO SAD THAT MOMENT WAS SO SAD

That has got to be how Hauntzer felt in the Spring in that final G5 teamfight. I'm a TSM fan all the way, but wow that was a heartbreaking way to lose.

Really glad you liked the experience, Bins! *won't be going to any event unless it's in St. Louis or Kansas City*

[Voidedmafia]

Team Liquid looks more like Team Soloqueue. Lots of great individual plays, especially early, but nothing else past 20-25 minutes.

Granted, Envy are playing fights very well, but I still feel like having Dardoch would make this at least 1-1 or 2-0 to Liquid instead of 2-0 for Envy.

[Voidedmafia]

arcsecond is not even remotely close to a problem. (unless hes making macro decisions, but for real hes a mid laner playing jungle with like no practice time)

hes actually been like 90% why theyre up a lot early game.

TLs bot lane sux. and ofc the macro play has been awful.

Not saying he is, just that Dardoch might have just made it better for liquid. Arcsecond is doing amazing work.

Jynthe is not fabby, and I don't know why fabby isn't in. Was he injured?

[Voidedmafia]

fabby left TL

Oh. So their arguably best two ADCs are either gone or on their B team? How does that work out for them?

As for today, C9 will stomp Envy, and while I think Fnatic has a chance to beat UoL, neither team will get past Splyce. I wouldn't want Fnatic to, anyways.

[Voidedmafia]

Welp. Fnatic's done for. Shadow of their former selves, et al.

UoL could be worth a trip to worlds if they do well against Splyce because Fnatic is not really a good metric for their ability, IMO.

[Voidedmafia]

Fnatic's bad now.

They'll bounce back, but this was just an off year for them.

What happened with Gamsu, btw? I wasn't able to keep track of the EU regular season due to my work schedule.

[Voidedmafia]

I feel a lot better about this C9 team than last year's. Really hope they and TSM can go far.

CLG's kinda the odd one out, tbh. If it was CLG vs. Immortals I think it might be C9/TSM/IMT, not TSM/CLG/C9.

[Voidedmafia]

Like, I don't "hate" him, but post-lung he just couldn't play at the level he needed to. He's still probably the best shotcaller the west has ever had, and among the best in the world.

Last part are the truest words ever spoken.

If there could be an official 6th spot for shotcallers, Hai would have that spot permanently.

[Voidedmafia]

Idk, I can understand Group A, but Group C looks like it'd have some interesting games.

[Voidedmafia]

Who's got the MS pick'em set up yet?

PEDIT: I think that all four have a reason to watch, at least for NA/EU. G2 vs. CLG, can C9 come to be 2nd, will H2k make it to 2nd, and can Splyce do anything at all.

[Voidedmafia]

TSM lost 2 non conditional coinflips to get the worst 2 of the remaining 4 teams possible during their draws, and then lost a 60-40 unfavoured odds chance to draw a wildcard to get their worst draw in Pool 3.

I mean, I agree this is not the best possible draw (what would that even be, anyways? TSM/Nox/H2K/AHQ?), but it's far better than, like, TSM/SKT/one of G2 or RNG/INTZ, which is probably the worst possible draw they could get or something.

This is definitely TSM's group to lose, whether by getting 2nd or not advancing at all, and it's Splyce's and Samsung's to win.

[Voidedmafia]

A: Rox/CLG (G2 would be the other, but NA bias)
B: SKT/C9
C: EDG/H2K (I think AHQ has a chance, though)
D: TSM/SSG

[Voidedmafia]

if anybody wants to watch s1 world championship games featuring best team of all time Epik Gamer in not shit quality here ya go:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 4l7CF_r3ZO

*ahem*

[Voidedmafia]

Are cartwheels out of the question?

[Voidedmafia]

Are we disparaging how the 76ers would try to run the team?

[Voidedmafia]

I'm going to completely miss the first day live because of school (dammit), then I'm going to miss a lot of time on catching up because of my grandpa's birthday Friday (and my parents are coming back from Kansas <_<), and then saturday and Sunday are going to be full of just catching up. I already figured I'd have to do this, but it's still slightly galling.

For Day 2, I think EDG vs. AHQ is a possible upset given how AHQ did back on 2014. Two years ago, sure, but it's still possible, I think.

[Voidedmafia]

bjergsen was a disappointment though, that is worrying.

I think it was a mix of TSM as a whole disrespecting RNG in the mid-game (probly because they did stomp RNG early despite a good invade by mata) and Biofrost showing some nerves. I'm not overly worried simply because TSM lost to Starhorn back in 2014 and then back through to beat them and the rest of the group (other than a completely stupid throw against SK). It is still worrying, though.

I'm far more concerned about them vs. SSG. I haven't watched it yet (don't spoil me!), but if they can't beat either RNG or SSG this week, I'm writing them off as not passing groups UNLESS RNG stomps everyone except TSM so it's like RNG 5-1 TSM 4-2 SSG 3-3 Splyce I-don't-give-a-fuck-they're-only-fourth. I have little faith in TSM getting past a tiebreaker match against SSG, regardless.

[Voidedmafia]

SPOILER ALERT:
Watch the matches.

I was, dummy. Just didn't want to be told beforehand.

Such a dominant victory against SSG speaks very well, though. If they fix the mistakes against RNG and keep this up against Splyce, then this should be an easy in to quarters. I think it's now basically a question of if TSM can force a 5-1 tiebreak, though that only happens if TSM can beat RNG again. Spylce should be freebies, and SSG should be another victory.

So now my attention is toward the other two NA teams. CLG was very clinical against G2, but I need to see how they do against ROX. I expect they'll healthily land in 2nd (Luna should be two freebies, and if they can repeat Day one so will G2), but even one win or a very close loss will mean good things...provided they don't get placed against SKT or RNG or something.

C9 had a...very likely tilt-inducing game against SKT. It's SKT, so I'm not

that

upset; I expected that to be 2-0 in SKT's favor, but 2nd is still within their grasp so long as they aren't hit too hard.

[Voidedmafia]

CLG FreeLG, CLG FreeLG...

Cmon, now...

[Voidedmafia]

Welp, I'm writing off everyone except TSM now. CLG's failing, G2 aren't going to win at this point, Splyce was dead already, and I have very little hope in H2K. Slight hope in C9, but.

[Voidedmafia]

Take that back, TSM's our only hope.

[Voidedmafia]

This C9 v. FW game is neverending... And I still think C9's gonna lose.

PEDT: Holy shit that took 40 minutes longer than it should've. Still think TSM's our only rep.

[Voidedmafia]

That was great late-game calling, but that mid-game was atrocious. I thought Doublelift was beyond that solo splitpushing.

Beyond that, I think Splyce had an okay/good early game, but after that it was TSM's fault for putting them ahead, and then TSM just outmaneuvered them.

[Voidedmafia]

*Gets home from work, refreshes the stream to catch up*

*first thing I see is CLG beating Rox*

HOLYSHITWHATJUSTHAPPENEDWHYWHATHOW

P-EDIT: At least you two enjoyed yourselves, Zor!

P-E2: Ah, the one option that beats nothing.

[Voidedmafia]

Tbh SKT look kind of beatable.

I have no fucking clue who will win, this is so absurd.

Here's a clue: The region starts with "K", and the winning team has "K" in it.

I mean, why are we suggesting SKT is neither going to be in the finals nor repeat when their only competition is in their own region? There has never been any doubt about the former, and the only question is if Rox will be there again, and if SKT can actually do the perfect Worlds (S3 they had 3 losses, S4 SSW had 2, S5 SKT only lost to ROX in the finals, so).

Lesser questions are whether or not TSM can even get to semis and win once against whichever of SKT/ROX they face, whether or not C9 or CLG can make it out, and how good IWC teams will be in week 2. Stupid questions are ones such as how much worse EU can get.

[Voidedmafia]

That is not an accurate description of "never any doubt"

There is no doubt in my mind that SKT will be in the finals, which is what I said. I just don't know if it'll be SKT vs. ROX again (which will depend both on ROX's final placement and if they're on the same or opposing sides of the brackets).

(I'd love to be proven wrong about SKT not being in the finals, but I just don't believe it won't be true.)

SKT has been playing poorly tho.
They crushed C9, but their games since then have hardly been something to write home about.

Got crushed early at MSI, to the point of

nearly dropping out

(Well, not nearly, since I don't think either Supermassive or G2 could've done any better than a potential tiebreak by D2, but it was still an actual possibility), then crushed in the semis and finals. SKT losing out in groups but showing up big in the knockout stage is not out of the realm of possibility.

That is not an accurate description of "never any doubt"

Haha yeah

It's like Voided hasn't been actually watching the games. We'll see what happens week 2, but all 3 Korean teams didn't show up week 1, and 1 of them is in real danger of not advancing.

I made that post right about when the CLG vs. ROX game was ending, so at the time no-one had seen FW vs. SKT and C9 vs. IMay. SKT crushed C9 and still had a relatively good game against I May (My memory is admittedly slipping on that one, but I don't think they feel into a deep hole like ROX does). Losing to the FW like that is startling, to say the least, but I still feel undeterred. (thankfully there's no perfect Worlds, which is a silver lining).

ROX losing so handily to CLG is a notable and worrying sign, but with CLG themselves losing to ANX I'm not about to raise my hopes on them. It's early enough for ROX to turn things around, as at least they aren't losing in the middle of a series like they did at Katowice 2015 to completely flop come Game 3. Definitely some shake-up here, but I doubt ROX is going to lose to ANX or G2.

SSG...I still want to say they're out because TSM and RNG are more less above them, but they still got a win off RNG. I honestly can't tell with this one because I feel like it entirely depends on who gets a 2-1 in week 2, if anyone.

yeah except he got the pre-tournament consensus wrong too.

idk about pre-tourney consensus, but I'm faily positive my pick'em's gonna be trashed because G2 has almost pulled up shorter than their MSI run, which was already a shittastic showing. At this point I'm going to be more surprised if they eke out a 3rd place finish in groups than if they bomb out; hell, I'll be surprised if they even pick up

a single win

because ANX is playing better than them at the moment.

P-EDIT: What, if anything, is different from MSI than here?

They're like S2 TSM all over again: Dominating their region, but having nothing to show internationally. Although, from what I've seen in EU they seem to be the weakest region right now, possibly even with IWC regions right now.

[Voidedmafia]

There is no doubt in my mind that SKT will be in the finals, which is what I said.

Okay, I may have made a syntax error, but just to be clear: I meant that I fully believe that SKT will make it to the finals, at the very least, and in turn still believe they'll repeat.

[Voidedmafia]

Those sure are words you typed.

Eh, I'm a word-typer. Kinda what I do.

[Voidedmafia]

What the fuck is WRONG WITH YOU, CLG?! Why are you losing to ALBUS NOX LUNA?! THE IWC?!

Like, Rox and Albus are the only teams performing anywhere decently in Group A, and that should not be happening. I can buy a 3-way fight for 1st and 2nd, not this stupid-ass slide of CLG.

(Like, I'm not trying to shit on ANX. All things considered, they're playing BEAUTIFULLY and deserve advancing out of groups if they beat G2 again, more so if they eke out a win against ROX somehow. I just hate the fact that CLG is so completely falling on their face so hard that it's fucking disgusting and disgraceful to NA and the CLG brand. And no, CLG 2-0-ing ROX will not remove this stain that has just appeared because this is something that looks pervasive and very dangerous.)

[Voidedmafia]

yeah. or wait until you're caught up to tell us your thoughts at the moment that are stale for us.

What? Just because it's not in the moment doesn't make it less true or relevant, nvm that you didn't really talk about it beyond mentioning ANX hype (Which I'm now seriously super-hype for, OMFG). Do you think CLG played anywhere near decently against ANX?

In seriousness, though, both NA and EU failed miserably in this group, EU moreso than NA. I'm just at a loss for how CLG went 0-2 against ANX when they were clearly still the stronger team. Especially in today's game because it seemed like CLG just threw everything out the window as if they expected to win regardless of their comp when ANX had shown that they could fight back.

nope you can have him.

Really?

[Voidedmafia]

OMFG THAT KARMA Q.

Did Albis just pull AHQ back?

[Voidedmafia]

Nope, thankfully.

H2K feels like they're the only ones who have a chance of making it out. G2 flopped hard, Splyce is simply outclassed by the teams in their group, so EU's only hope is in them. And even then I don't think they'll get past quarters without a very lucky break; getting 1st seed and getting ANX is just about their best hope. But I think EDG has 1st on lockdown now unless H2K goes 3-0.

[Voidedmafia]

Well this is funny in retrospect.

IKR? Even moreso if they actually won the tiebreaker.

i uh

ended up winning $1500 in that contest.

im still semi pissed at clg and rox yesterday for costing me a lot more but uh...

yeah idk. thats pretty good for $1 investment.

Damn, pickem. Can I have $100 of that?

[Voidedmafia]

IKR? Even moreso if they actually won the tiebreaker.

Well this is funny in retrospect.

Holy shit they did? I admittedly didn't watch that because I was content knowing H2K was advancing, so that's really surprising to me.

For once, EU trumps NA, and H2K does what CLG doesn't (dammit, I can't fit a Nintendon't kind of thing in there. Bah)

[Voidedmafia]

...Why would everyone on TSM even do that?

[Voidedmafia]

Reginald would still probably be looked upon at least more favorably than them for trying to scavenge the game, and all four would probably be reviled for just leaving a game like that (although I admit this part is more my personal opinion; no matter how much of a bitch Regi may be,

NOTHING

would or could excuse that behavior. I'd be far more tolerant if they left after game 2 was over).

Is this some reddit/twitter/facebook stuff, then?

[Voidedmafia]

And by "that" i mean the walking out on-stage. Besides, if they did do that the game would immediately be stopped and wouldn't continue even if Regi wanted to try and scrape the game together.

P-EDIT: Ah. Well, it wouldn't. And unless they spent the entire first half of the movie portraying Regi as a bad boss, I don't think anyone would feel like this was worth it, anyways.

[Voidedmafia]

I bet you're fun at parties.

Can't be fun at parties I never go to!

[Voidedmafia]

guys, two things.

Can we kindly not call Russia EU.
And can we kindly not call ANX M5's successors.

Is H2K Russian? I never knew.

I called them M5's successors?

I just said EU bested Na for once this tournament because H2K are in and CLG (and now TSM) are out.

im not particularly sure what the thought process was for tsm today.

huh.

Find a way to lose to every non-EU team in their group? Seems like the standard MO for NA teams most of the time, anyways.

[Voidedmafia]

voided can you please choke on a dick <3

What? I'm just as big a TSM fan as you are, and while I can't say that was as bad as CLG's dropout this was pretty damn disappointing for a team who's effective motto was "semis or bust" going into this.

[Voidedmafia]

I'm sorry I'm sorry you're right that was rude.

Could you please

kindly

choke on a dick?

Why would I choke on a dick

[Voidedmafia]

Still no wins, still no advancements out of groups.

If there's gap closure, it's marginal at best. At this rate we'll match the Koreans in, like, 2050, and by that time League will probably not even matter as an eSports game.

[Voidedmafia]

Yknow what would constitute real gap closure?

1.) Consistent victories against Korean teams that is not based on cheese picks or one-off victories. An NA team must 2-0 a Korean team at least once internationally in groups, and then repeat that performance. In this case, the actual way the games play out may be irrelevant unless it's based on constantly falling behind and coming back (unless they come back like ROX does or something), at which point decisive victories would be best.
2.) Actual and consistent advancement at worlds and other tournaments where Koreans are teams that must be fought. Semis and finals or bust, beating out korean teams to get there, and holding our own during those plateau moments at the very very least. Nothing like 2014 vs. SSW where it was kinda obvious they were messing around game 3. MSI this year was a promising start (CLG was one of the more dominant teams there), but without follow-up at Worlds it means squat, and there was no follow-up.

There cannot be any more of these small steps. That's just not cutting it. NA and EU teams have shown time and time again that the only places they can be dominant for any stretch of time is in their local regions, although EU has had their big moments (S3 and S5). THere's almost no point in being hopeful internationally when this year's TSM was almost literally the best team NA has ever produced and completely failed in groups, and it's started to sour my expectations because I can't look at regional success and believe it translates to international victory anymore.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, you're free to use that standard if you want.

I suspect you're mostly just disappointed by TSM's performance. Which was sad and disappointing.

Mostly TSM, but CLG as well.

It's not just a question of whether or not Korean teams are as dominant as before. I agree that they aren't, but it doesn't matter when it doesn't translate to NA or EU leapfrogging ahead of them, even if it's just for one year. It just doesn't matter if teams are showing individual specks of life now because we've been shown time and time again it means nothing, especially from NA teams.

We can't keep hoping for those kind of things, Zor. At this point, only concrete evidence of advancement in something along the lines of the two things I mentioned can suffice.

[Voidedmafia]

I just got off work, you dumbass. Do you expect me to magically have knowledge of how all the games went before I got home? And if you're mad because I immediately assumed C9 was doing poorly (whether it was true or not), what exactly should lead me to believe that another NA team wasn't gonna make it, both from previous results this week and because of the teams in their group?

Besides, it's not like I was wrong since they went 1-2 an only advanced because FW didn't get a tiebreaker they may very well have won.
.
Regarding quarters, I seriously didn't think H2K was gonna get ANX, but it's just about the best they could hope for (other than possibly H2K vs. C9). Still probly gonna be a Korea vs. Korea finals, but idk how I feel about it not being SKT vs. Rox. I think I'd like a Rox vs. SSG, honestly.

[Voidedmafia]

Tbh.

I'm hoping for RNG vs. h2k.

I only wish H2K could beat SSG.

And RNG could beat SKT, for that matter.

[Voidedmafia]

Honestly? The infrastructure isn't even close to there. Streaming is still the primary revenue sources for teams, and streaming directly interferes with scrim schedules.

If League ever drops a sandbox mode then the gap is going to become unbelievable. I am convinced that's the primary reason we haven't seen one, it's not like they're particularly hard to code.

Can you explain to me what exactly sandbox mode is supposed to do to narrow the gap? I'm not really sure what it's supposed to do (or how it even works in League)

Anyways, my picks:

SKT over RNG (Even if RNG plays out of their minds, I still think SKT has the edge over them. I think it'll be 3-1, maybe 3-2.)
Rox over EDG (Even if Rox and EDG looked weak over the course of the groups, I think EDG looked weaker than ROX. May be close, or Rox will just stomp
H2K over ANX (I honestly feel like H2K still has an edge in Bo5s, though I admit they haven't done the best and ANX may have enough experience to bridge that gap. IDK, I just feel like H2K is going to be more seasoned with this and ANX might flounder under the new pressure that breaking out of groups could place on them)
SSG over C9 (I really, really, REALLY want C9 to win this, so hard (though at the same time I'm REALLY glad TSM is actually out given that it'd either be an automatic beatdown by SKT or a terrible NA vs. NA region-kill that I don't want), but SSG just look so good, especially if they're smart and keep CoreJJ in. Guy did mad work both weeks.)

SKT over Rox (History, mainly. I don't think Rox has ever beat SKT in a Bo5 since Rox were a team in 2014, but don't quote me on that. It'd be funny/cool if it happened now, and the result I'm looking for if RNG doesn't upset, but I'm not holding my breath
SSG over h2K (If C9 is going to be bad, this is going to be worse, IMO. I feel like NA as a whole were better suited to beating SSG over EU (and we could've if people would stop giving Crown Viktor; seriously, people). Again, could be wrong, but I doubt it.)

SKT over SSG (It'd be really cool if any 3rd seed upstart manages to beat the more-or-less tourney favorites (whether it's Rox or SKT since they kinda both are in absence of the other), though. SKT just feels more...complete, or something? I'm still rooting for not-SKT, though.)

[Voidedmafia]

what's the point of even pretending to provide analysis if you're just picking the favorites every match
you should've just ended your post after misunderstanding GI

Is he saying that League dropping it as in not putting it in altogether is not going to narrow the gap, or not? That's what it sounds like to me, and even if it isn't I still don't get what a sandbox mode would do for League.

Also, what's the point of even pretending to care about what I say when all you care to do is shit on my opinion? I'm telling you why I made the picks I did. Just because I'm picking the favorites means shit-all when there's not really a lot going for the teams they're facing to warrant choosing them. Or would you rather I just go "lolnope Koreans gun lose lol" for the hell of it?

You probly shouldn't have posted at all.

[Voidedmafia]

Wow. That would basically force teams to grow the infrastructure to accommodate the required time to practice or everyone else is utterly fucked, possibly even at a regional level.

I mean, I can imagine TSM adapting to this enough so that, say, Echo Fox literally can't keep up (or even a more competitive team like Apex or Immortals) they'd literally rule the roost, and then get shunted when teams from other regions show up with even more training. That's not good at all.

[Voidedmafia]

That's what held foreigners back for so long in SC2, and it's only in the twilight of StarCraft that a foreigner managed to get the skill to best the Koreans, as the Korean teams fall apart.

Also, slightly unrelated since this isn't the SC thread, but who has been a contender for the WCS from foreigners (possibly ignoring Korean-Americans like Polt) as of late?

[Voidedmafia]

@voided, all SK was saying that you're just typing to type. Your "analysis" wasn't really analysis and you said all the favorites were gonna win. It would saved us all the trouble of reading babble if you would have straight said "all the favorites are gonna win, but I don't want them to" or just done the picks straight up without any extra bullshit. In short, save the not-really-analysis for your tumblr.

As for my picks. All favorites in Rd 1. Skt over rox and Korea over not Korea Rd 2. Ssg over skt. Crown kills faker a bunch. The crowd goes wild. The unkillable demon king goes down.

I don't have a tumblr. Don't really intend to.

And sure, I didn't give straight "X, Y, and Z things are why this team is better than that team", but I'm not going to lie and say I know enough about the structure of these teams (especially non-NA teams) to do that. And it's not like I said anything explicitly wrong unless I flubbed my info somewhere, but I'm certainly not saying "Favs are gonna win cuz favs" because there are legit reasons why teams like SKT and SSG and Rox are gonna be finalists.

Also, that would be a great ending. I kinda want to see any 3rd seed left (which is basically C9, SSG and ANX) make it to finals and upset SKT.

I think that despite having better infrastructure in Korea, the gap in infrastructure is way, way, way lower than it was in previous seasons (or in SC2 for that matter). Many teams, particularly those that regularly qualify for worlds in EU and NA, have team infrastructure that would allow them to figure out ways to take advantage of a sandbox mode.

It's also a disrupting force in the game. No one's had this ability before, someone will figure out how to take advantage of it best. It's possible that the Koreans would figure out how to best utilize it, but I don't think that's a given. And disruption often favors those not in control.

But while I can imagine that non-Koreans can be the first to jump on using it, are they really going to figure out the best way to use it before Koreans do? They've had at least two decades of work on this kind of thing.

[Voidedmafia]

Yeah right.

Is it outlandish of me to believe that the NALCS literally does not matter anymore unless/until an NA team wins MSI or places semis or better at worlds? (less so for EU since regardless of their opposition they've won one season and have only missed semis

once

as a region (S4))

[Voidedmafia]

And the stupid thing is, I can't even tell you you are odd for believing only winning matters and anything else is not worth your support, because I suspect that is something cultural. But it is silly nonetheless.

I guess I've just been so jaded by all this talk of "the gap is closing!" over the years (and especially this year) that the utter failure to do anything of note has kinda soured my viewpoint. I'm not trying to say that the LCS won't provide funny moments or dramatic moments and that those aren't worth viewing, but I can't find it within me to be as hyped when the only place it matters is in our own region, not the international stage, when it needs to matter in some way internationally.

Also, Phreak's puns are a strange mixture of good and bad shit that I can't tell you if I like them or not. I like his play-by-play more than anyone else on the NA scene, though.

Well, the bigger issue is voided can't read. Cabd said the false article wrote that rox were coming for money, not coming for superior opposition. Last I checked the dollar was strong as fuck and a pile of sports teams have been investing in both na and eu. I'm sure the dollar and euro are pretty god damn strong.

Me talking about my belief in the LCS had nothing to do with Cabd's post. The "yeah right" was in directly response to that, though I understand it wasn't obvious I was doing a complete topic change.

I 100% don't beleive for a single second ROX would disband, nor would they disband to go to NA. Not unless the Korean infrastructure somehow went to hell in a handbasket and NA is the next-best thing for Korean Exodus 2.0.

[Voidedmafia]

Oh, it's not your fault man. Espn is normally good but their esports coverage has been trash during worlds(probably always). Match reports have been factually inaccurate but at least those don't have areal impact on team's future.

Most places like that probably have zero clue what eSports is beyond the fact that they're a thing. I'd like for them to do some coverage of eSports events, so long as they understand it and the games first.

[Voidedmafia]

Although tbf that's basically what's happening to League.

But how much of that is because TSM/C9/CLG/IMT have the best people possible (and therefore lower teams have lesser people who can't match up) or because lower teams don't have a certain something or somethings to make them be able to truly reach for the finals? Honest question because I don't know (though I'm not trying to say it's not because teams like TSM just have the near-objectively better players since I think Bjergsen and Sven and Doublelift are some of the best if not the best players in NA in their roles)

...if that wasn't clear, is it a lack of player talent or an inability to properly foster and develop good teams?

[Voidedmafia]

Like, saying that "all competitions that aren't the very best ones don't matter" is pretty gross.

To go back to my original point, would saying "competitions that aren't the very best can be difficult to feel incentivzed to support" be less gross?

To another point: Can I say Bjergsen is the Dade of 2016?

[Voidedmafia]

Awww. Groups ruined my pick'em so hard.

I honestly felt bad for H2K in game 1 because they were doing well until that baron fight. I actually thought they could've still come back until SSG snuck that baron and proceeded to wreck their base faster than I thought (they had 2 Earths, but still that was pretty fast). H2K did better than expected, I think, though in some ways I'm glad they didn't win so SSG can beat SKT.

[Voidedmafia]

I really thought SSG could do it after the Game 3 comeback and the commanding Game 4. It's like ROX in the semis, only slower.

Welp, time for the threepeat next year, then.

[Voidedmafia]

only just noticed doublelift says he won't be back for spring split.

I find it hard to blame him, though I wonder who TSM could possibly replace DL with that's free and just as good (and can help Biofrost grow, if he's still on the team).

For the thread title question, eh. Still kinda in the "NA failed, nothing matters anymore" mentality so I don't think I can fairly answer that question. I think it'll matter more for EU than NA since EU has far less international cred to win back and NA pretty much has to wait for Worlds again just to be anything more than on par with IWC teams, if only marginally better. (Well, winning MSI would probably help, but...)

Slightly irrelevant to that, exactly how hard would it be/is it to setup some kind of weekly international exhibition matchups between regions during the regular season, assuming that all five major regions have agreed to do so or at least look favorably on such an idea? I was kinda thinking that, for NA/EU, we'd add an extra week to account for byes and have the matches happen on, like, Saturday and/or Sunday before the NA LCS, though I'm not sure if it'd be online or if foreign teams would travel to play in LA. And it'd probably be rough parity between teams; 5th place NA would play 5th place LCK, for instance, or the rough equivalent.

[Voidedmafia]

Did better than NA, and G2 beat ANX in their 2nd match (ANX was probably worn out from getting a victory against ROX just before, but still).

I agree neither region had a fantastic worlds, but EU still came out of this better than NA, I think.

[Voidedmafia]

I'm kinda surprised this went dark since about the playoffs.

Although, to be fair this MSI is kinda shaping up as expected in some ways (SKT will win undefeated as usual against non-Korean teams; I personally write off any non-Korean team (or I suppose any team not named FW or EDG) as auto-losing any games against them since fluke victories are seldom, TSM fails internationally in general with only glimmers of actual teamplay such as in the win against WE, the WC/play-in team has strong and aggresive play but isn't really able to macro and win without mistakes from the opponent as far as I can tell, and G2 seems on the teetering verge of just not making the cut internationally, though this time around I think they're doing a lot better than what we've seen before..

I was surprised WE won in China (without stuff from Lolesports.com I don't really have much of a way to see anything that''s not NA/EU so I kinda expected EDG or someteam like that to make it given WE used to be really poor in recent years IIRC), though I can't tell if they're in a similar boat to TSM or if they may be chafing some from their first taste of international play since IEM Katowice 2015. The biggest surprise is that FW floundered day 1 and had to play two comeback games to be even at 2-2. I still kinda expect this final to be FW vs. SKT unless they're 1st and 4th, though. Other two are WE and honestly between GAM and G2.

TSM (and to me, NA by extension since only TSM and C9 seem able to play internationally) simply cannot contend anywhere outside their home turf, and I guess I don't understand how they can change this without having more international chances outside of IEM, MSI and Worlds. The game against WE was great, don't get me wrong, but TSM had a decisive game against SSG at Worlds last year, and their only other wins were narrow-ish victories against Splyce; with that in mind, I think I should only expect them to get maybe one or two more wins and bow out in 6th or maaaaybe 5th, and then fall to international irrelevance akin to the IWC at Worlds this year with probly another 1-5.

on the other hand, I can see GAM getting wins off of G2 and maybe WE or FW, possibly pushing themselves to contend for semis. They still seem like the typical IWC teams with aggressive starts and good to great early games, but not really able to close out without seemingly being thrown the game by the opponent (like TSM did day 1), but they can push really far if they keep the pressure going and look like they can get a win without needing to capitalize on mistakes and instead on their own terms. Both of their losses to G2 and FW could've easily been wins.

I probably sound way too salty, but at this point we in NA have pretty much been relegated to marginal trips to international scenes, only there for the sights and groups and then heading home with nothing to show but empty pride in hometown dominance. I still feel happy whenever TSM wins the NA playoffs, and I'm glad that they have the longest finals appearance streak of any team, Esports or non-esports), but it just doesn't mean anything since they can't even translate that to being consistently competitive on the world stage. Am I wrong for feeling this way?

[Voidedmafia]

Yeah, but don't compare sports and esports especially when you wrong.

Sorry, I meant recently there. Unless kiem was wrong they have the longest finals streak in recent years, with only Lebron's six NBA finals being close.

Although, what

has

been the longest finals streak that we know of? Not of wins, just appearances. The Yankees? Celtics? A Soccer/football team? NFL team? Some other sport I'm not thinking of right now?

Let's sanity check this.

0. They haven't even finished one round of a round robin. Best of 1s are a pretty terrible way to evaluate teams in LoL.
1. TSM has beaten WE, the top team from China
2. TSM has shown they can beat GAM in a best of 5. While "beat the Wildcard team" doesn't sound great, GAM has shown they are pretty darn tough competition.
3. They were in a position to beat FW.
4. They played SKT pretty tough at first but then were outclassed, which is as good as anyone can say.
5. They haven't played G2 yet.
6. Let's remember that these teams represent the top teams from each region. Although you might say that the two additional Korean teams at Worlds are likely to be better than the non-SKT teams at MSI, these are still likely to be in the top echelon.

Clearly TSM is outclassed by SKT, but then again clearly so is everyone else at the tournament. Getting an early lead is as good as anyone has done. TSM has looked flat, but they haven't really looked out-classed by the other teams they've played. I think it's probably more likely than not to not make the group stages of MSI given their 1-3 start. But if your complaint is that NA teams are just there to be participants, I think that probably comes from a place of either deep pessimism or unreasonable expectations -- as long as you accept nobody but a Korean team is likely to win MSI or Worlds this year.

Remember that Europe was in a similar position as TSM this year, lost a 1st seed at Worlds and had a team make it to the semis (although facing Albus Nox made that easier).

PS. For what it's worth, I think that C9 probably would have had the higher ceiling at this tournament than TSM. Not that they necessarily would have done better or "deserve" to be at MSI more than TSM. But TSM has to work around their bot lane being a weak point, which removes dimensions to their play. Getting DL back will be helpful to them even though I think some of the WT criticism has been overly harsh.

0.) Fair enough (why else would you jump to Bo3s, then?), but given that the last time they did well in international Bo1s was Worlds 2014 (if they had gotten out of groups last Worlds I'd include that one, too) I kinda lean toward this being more typical than atypical. I think they would do well if put in Bo5s or Bo3's, and they've proven that so far, but they've gotta get there first.
1. I legit have no clue about the strength of China as a whole this year, especially since my last knowledge of WE was of a middling team not able to make playoffs. I did like that game from TSM, but I'm trying not to pin too much on it because them beating WE has no context behind it for me to understand where it lays. If you have a better grasp of China and WE, please tell me.
2. I feel like that doesn't really say much since TSM got trounced in G1 and G2 of that series.
3. So were GAM, but they still lost. Not sure if WE would've won or not if Kled hadn't gone off that game.
4. I'm actually very surprised that G2, GAM and TSM have actually had good to great early games against them. They all eventually get outclassed by SKT's starred lineup and better macro, though, hence why I believe they'll still go undefeated this tourney except maybe in a FW/SKT finals or semis. I really wish that any of them could've been able to close out, but it's a lot better than my initial belief that SKT would kinda just steamroll everyone from start to finish.
5. I suppose. If I had to base it just off their Finals, I'd kinda say G2 has the edge, but at the same time I feel like G2 has been...slightly more erratic this MSI. It's far better than their first one last year, at the very least (even if that G2 and this G2 are entirely different teams), and Worlds.

I expect NA teams (and TSM in particular) to be competitive as well as advance from groups. I want them to win MSI/Worlds. The latter I know is virtually impossible while SKT and Faker still play (and I do seriously question if Faker's eventual successor can maintain SKT's reputation). I did see competitiveness last Worlds, that first Royal Club game aside, but they didn't make quarters. I personally just don't feel satisfied if they don't advance because then it feels like what I said; and I kinda think C9 got in last year on a stroke of luck rather than them playing up to it like H2K did. And since I can't get an MSI/Worlds victory, I just want TSM here at MSI or TSM, C9 and whoever is the 3rd team to have that good Worlds like they did in 2014 where they have multiple strong to outright dominating wins and can go to quarters on their own, with maybe one or two flukes on the way.

Unless they get, like, SKT. Then I just hope for 2nd.

[Voidedmafia]

Tahm Kench is a good pairing for Wild Turtle.

True. A lot better at keeping him safe than Braum. Although I'm surprised Braum has come back into the meta. It might just be because he and Tahm are who's left when Karma and Lulu are gone (and Malz and Zyra), but I guess I figured he'd be a couple choices back.

Super happy Svenskeren didn't do a sloppy early invade this game, though.

[Voidedmafia]

Holy shit, TSM should NOT have won that. Holy fuck.

P-EDIT: That's just about the only way you can explain that.

[Voidedmafia]

"Did we jinx SKT enough?"

You can't jinx SKT. SKT can only jinx themselves.

[Voidedmafia]

SLAY CANNOT DIE!

Except when he pulls a Rekkles and chases an illusionary triple.

[Voidedmafia]

And now G2 actually has a good early game.

Hey, Zor, what was the name of the League site chat again? Just League?

[Voidedmafia]

Huh. Is it no longer there because no one's in it...?

Wow, FW. What happened to you? At this rate we can only guarantee FW won't be advancing short of going 6-4, while everything else seems to be in complete flu and chaos.

[Voidedmafia]

So...SKT, WE, G2, and one of TSM/GAM, it looks like now?

[Voidedmafia]

i mean TSM, GAM and FW all have the same record...

True, but given the FW's record I kinda have them on the failing end of those three. Unless they upsurge tomorrow and go 2-0. That seems to be how their pendulum swings this tourney.

[Voidedmafia]

What did Sjokz mean about a 6-man team? ARe TSM gonna try to have a dedicated 6th man to swap in and out for Summer?

In any case, that game wasn't over clean but still a god win for TSM. They've got 1 of 3 potential victories, and if G2 beats GAM that should mean that the Marines are out without a tiebreaker match.

[Voidedmafia]

Where was this Flash Wolves at the start of the tourney? Where were the godkillers we knew of back in '16 until now?

P-EDIT: Fair to Turtle to initiate this, or fair to have Turtle for Spring and then shuttle him out in Summer?

[Voidedmafia]

But does DL still feel like the obvious upgrade above Turtle? Is it possible that this could make both of them work on any individual issues in their play?

[Voidedmafia]

both g2 and tsm are fucking jokes of teams though.

I legitimately think neither has any idea how to play the game league of legends at an acceptable level(internationally)

This so much. And people think I'm overly salty when I say this was, is and will be typical of NA teams internationally (although, to be fair I can only say this about TSM right now and not any other team, but I wouldn't be surprised).

They proved to be incompetent at closing out games or making smart decisions, or even having proper warding (team-wide, almost) and invades (Mainly Sven in particular, though he thankfully rarely did that after D2). This last game against G2 was easily winnable if they actually warded properly, and the 1st game shouldn't have even come to a base-race-like scenario because TSM was so far ahead. And they've apparently lost how to play well from behind (although I don't know if its that or if teams like FW are just that good at slowly/quickly steamrolling leads, or a mix of both).

Zor, they may have been competitive, but just being competitive doesn't get you a berth to the knockout stage, does it? Just "being competitive" doesn't mean shit anymore if you can't pair the two together. And I'd be perfectly fine with them just advancing past groups because they'd either face SKT which no one should ever believe TSM could beat in a series or a single match, or probably have a respectable series against WE or whoever.

TSM (and I suppose arguably) G2 are big fish in small ponds in their home regions, but the international ocean is still too big. And TSM, at least, seems to show no signs of being able to grow into being a contender rather than being eaten alive out there. Sure, it sounds like sports radio talk, but it's not like we're entirely wrong here, are we?

[Voidedmafia]

I don't know. This is like listening to sports talk radio in every city in the world.

Yeah, I'm ready for when Harden puts up 30.2 8 11 stat lines next year and for everyone to forgot that they spent a week in May saying he was a bum and that he was done.

TSM had their chance this week, and they didn't pull it off. And they can't try again until Worlds (because I know they'll be there, by winning Summer if not by points), so they're still in the "bum" phase, I suppose. Probably won't be "done" until Bjergsen leaves the team, and maybe Hauntzer (who was pretty much the only one who played well this entire tourney, with maybe Biofrost).

[Voidedmafia]

So...what you're saying is just "being competitve" doesn't really mean shit-all? Because what I'm reading in that is that being competitive, while I agree is integral to advancing (obviously you're not gonna get to advance if you can't even beat a single team in any way), is nowhere near as important as some other factors that TSM clearly didn't have this time around.

P-EDIT: EDG, SKT, and now SKT again, for all three MSIs that have happened again. Unless FW somehow pulls out a miracle set.

[Voidedmafia]

Look, if to enjoy things you have to have TSM always be one of the top two teams in a tournament, then you probably should stop watching now. If you want there to be a chance that TSM has a magical tournament where they make it to the semi finals or even finals, I think that's still within the realm of possibility. I don't think that's a LARGE possibility with the current team composition, but it's not impossible.

Ha, no. NA as a whole is nowhere near the point of being consistently in the top 2 teams. I have no illusions about that, though I think being in the top 8 has been within reach for awhile. I just have the same expectations that TSM has (with maybe more tempered beliefs on results; as much as I want TSM to win Worlds, etc, just getting to semis would be enough at this point, or even quarters at Worlds), and I'm disappointed this time around because I just don't feel like TSM played any sort of game worth being happy about in 8 of their 10 games. Technically 6 of 10 because SKT pretty much made fools of everyone except FW twice despite some early game hardships, but.

[Voidedmafia]

Like, they broke out of groups for the first time in 2014 (without needing a bye to get there like with S2), as did C9. That was the first time two NA teams did so since S1, although I have no idea how that system even worked so I don't really put much into that little claim. However much I might rag on C9 getting by to quarters in last year's worlds on pure dumb luck, it was still good to see at least one team break groups again. But I want TSM to do it again, and again, and again, along with maybe this year all three NA teams make it to quarters. Once we start making it to quarters, like, 2-3 years in a row (or maybe just 2 years of breaking out of groups, to include MSI), then I'll probably start pushing for making semis. And then when semi appearances at Worlds get to be common, then I seek Finals. And hope that by this point Korea in general isn't some unassailable behemoth of League Esports.

[Voidedmafia]

Comtractz this season

Contractz has shown up far more than Dardoch has so far, although I think Dardoch did good this split regardless.

Great job by G2, though, to beat WE. If nothing else, this is a great bit of redemption after last year's abysmal international appearances, considering even optimistic predictions would just be 3-1 against SKT. I'm honestly very curious if anyone thinks G2 could go 2-3 against SKT.

If they can get this far, I think G2 can have at least one strong game against SKT, maybe even win said strong game. Shame I can't watch this finals personally since I have to work, but it'll be interesting to see afterward.

[Voidedmafia]

G2 lost but looked pretty good doing it.

That third game looked like it was so close up until I think the 33-minute mark. Really thought G2 would force it to take 5 games or even win in 4.

Credit where credit is due: I don't think people would argue that the group stages were not the best from G2 by most margins, and their good wins were probably overshadowed by their bad losses. But they beat WE really handily, and didn't go down 0-3 against SKT, which is more than a lot of non-Korean/Chinese teams can say. Maybe there needs to be another run at Worlds for people to think they've truly redeemed themselves internationally, but at the very least this is a good victory after last year.

Although, if TSM had beaten G2, I wonder if G2 could've surprised SKT with Trick's upswing.

[Voidedmafia]

I really like the idea of rift rivals, as a means of promoting international play. Kinda bummed that there aren't any matchups like NA vs. SA, EU vs. CIS-area teams, and so on, but I understand that this is their first shake at trying it so it's probably better to stick to old favorites like NA vs. EU and such.

I hope it's successful enough we could see stuff like NA vs. LMS, for instance, or EU vs. LPL or something like that. That'd be fun to watch.

I feel like the last man standing route for NA vs. EU will be interesting and provide a means for each team to try their best (after all, who wouldn't want to be like C9 and beat all three enemy teams before anyone else?). It does mean that the #2 and #1 teams from either region may not get to play at all, but then it rewards that region as a whole because it potentially means that if the #3 seed could do that, the other two are much better (this probably wouldn't hold up all the time in reality, but hey). I don't quite get why they didn't just do the same for the other rivalries between two regions though.

EDIT: On looking at it again, I do have a couple questions:

1.) I wonder if they'll base the seedings entirely on Spring/1st Split standings or not. Probably will have to since that'll be the only fully played split for most regions.

2.) The time allotted feels a bit short. I don't necessarily think they should, like, cascade each one to a new week (i.e. NA vs. EU during the weekend of july 9th, then the SA rivals next week, and so on), but it does feel a little cramped if you want to watch, say, both the NA/EU one and the LMS/LCK/LPL one as well. I suppose it's more for regional viewing moreso than international viewing, but even outside of that, some of the events feel ridiculously short by shoving what looks like up to 8-10 gmes into one day.

[Voidedmafia]

The Fnatic v. H2K match was as close as I expected it to be, albeit perhaps not as definitive as I had hoped. Fnatic still won, though, so I'm happy.

I didn't expect CLG to crush Dig that hard, especially given their messy/poor performances against Envy and Immortals. I know the casters mentioned that it tells C9 that their bid won't be as easy if CLG does make it to the 3rd round, as well as giving Dig a wake-up call, and I agree.

[Voidedmafia]

Biofrost is a fucking

God

. After Immortals were 7-0 in kills I thought it was over, but he is pretty much the sole reason TSM came back thanks to his Rakan. Seems like Rakan is going to have to be a permaban against TSM short of heavy Worlds nerfs coming to render him irrelevant, which ain't gonna fucking happen.

TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM TSM!

P-edit: Who the fuck is Gordon Hayward and where is this going on, again?

[Voidedmafia]

On the plus side, NA is 3-2 (3-0 day 2) while EU is 0-4?

I'm kinda upset that I didn't change IMT and FNC's places, as I had IMT at 3rd and FNC at 2nd. I meant to before Groups started, but didn't get around to it. Then again, I'm wholly expecting my pick'em to be demolished by the end of this anyways, so I guess that's nothing off my back.

I'm not entirely sure whether or not the FW vs. TSM game was FW performing better than expected or TSM performing worse than expected. Certainly Sven in particular had a really bad early-mid game with all the deaths he gave over, but it felt like TSM as a whole wasn't slumping too hard while FW played better than what anyone except the optimistic diehards predicted and kinda just lost because TSM got a pick on Betty.

C9 losing to SKT was expected, and their subsequent stomp of AHQ was a pleasant surprise--mainly because while I expected the win I didn't expect such a dominant one. Meanwhile, IMT continues to prove NA>EU.

That EDG loss to SKT, though...that's got to be so heartbreaking, both for them and the fans.

P-EDIT: Yeah, this was a good night (or day in my case, since I saw the re-broadcast). Only miss IMO was the Misfits game, but that was entirely expected to happen.

[Voidedmafia]

WE has been winning the teamfights, but TSM has far better macro than WE this game.

Oh, and Bjergerking's pretty good, I guess.

[Voidedmafia]

Wow. That was a quiet yet efficient and effective win. TSM's going 3-0 this week and

definitely

looks poised to come out 1st. If FW can beat WE and TSM 2-0s FW 1st seed is guaranteed short of Misfits managing to split or 2-0 TSM.

[Voidedmafia]

That was a pretty good game by Misfits. Definitely better than I thought it would be. I don't think it's indicative of MSF vying for the 2nd seed (that's already WE's), but if they can 2-0 FW then I think that's a win for them.

Granted, if Misfits actually beat WE, then maybe all bets are off.

As an aside, is it ironic that the two teams considered to be favorites (Fnatic, G2) are sitting at dead last with no wins while the newcomers expected to fail are 1-1 and 3rd place?

P-EDIT: I'm painfully aware. But while C9 and IMT are in groups where such crumbling is not only probable but also expected, TSM is in a group where their only expected competition is WE. Hate to sound so hyped, but the absolute worst I think TSM

can

place is 2nd because I do not ever foresee them lose to Misfits.

[Voidedmafia]

jeez, what is with today and three back-to-back shut-outs?

P-EDIT: We're still going to have to face a Korean eventually, and that leaves the possibility of SSG going against an NA team. If it's all Koreans 1st seeds+TSM, then so long as we don't get RNG or something we're almost guaranteed semis.

Well, if RNG gets 1st and SSG gets 2nd, assuming A is SKT/EDG, B is LZ/IMT and D is TSM/WE, then I don't see any good matchups (TSM vs. SSG, TSM vs. EDG, or TSM vs. IMT NA teamkill, which does guarantee semis at least but IMO not preferable in quarters).

SKT/C9, IMT/LZ, RNG/SSG and TSM/WE has the best matchups be SKT vs. SSG, IMT vs. WE, RNG vs LZ and TSM vs. C9, and if IMT and TSM/C9 get on the same side and IMT beats WE, then an NA team makes finals for the first time ever.

The only other notable options are if Fnatic and G2 make it to 2nd seeds with IMT being 1st or something like that, which I honestly don't think are likely as things stand.

And no, only the group draw is regional exclusive, IIRC. Knockout should allow for Korean vs. Korean, etc.

P-EDIT: I don't like that semis, though...TSM vs. WE would be better.

[Voidedmafia]

IMT isn't going to come first in their group, and WE won't beat RNG in the Quarters.

SKT/EDG is also almost certainly not going to be the two teams advancing from A.

No, probably not, but that's like best-case. Almost absolute best.

C9 could still go 0-3. Granted, EDG has to 3-0, but still. It does mean we have a 50/50 of getting out due to an NA teamkill, I guess. SKT/C9, LZ/IMT, RNG/SSG (if G2 beats RNG tonight/tomorrow RNG/G2 is within the realm of possibility), TSM/WE. The best possibility would be if G2 can win out over SSG because then TSM has no Korean or Chinese team to deal with in Quarters (can't get WE because same group) and only has to hope that RNG are on their side for the best possible semis.

[Voidedmafia]

Mostly...please no more read skins rito, unless they have a cool logo like misfits or AHQ

Would be nice to have something other than red, yeah.

[Voidedmafia]

Egh, maybe purple or green by themselves, but not together.

[Voidedmafia]

That says nothing about whether or not I like it. Which I kinda don't.

ANyways, so long Flash Wolves. While we already know Fenerbahce ain't gonna make it, EDG and FW have basically been confirmed to be out.

[Voidedmafia]

...Is TSM underestimating Misfits here? This is going so much worse for them than it should be going for them.

[Voidedmafia]

Yeah, definitely underestimation.

For crying out loud, TSM, you just had to respect the Shen again. You have got to stop playing under such slim margins.

They'd better not tilt and 0-3 next week. I swear...

[Voidedmafia]

You're wrong. Go back to fashion school. At least it's not the only dumb opinion you have had in this thread.

you have a problem with me disliking it?

[Voidedmafia]

honestly, even though ardent censor is clearly overpowered and reduces champion variety, etc. it hasn't led to boring games or anything.

*looks very pointedly at the Marines* Gotta love some Nocturne, that's for sure.

Honestly, except for that Misfits vs. WE game (and maybe G2 vs. SSG), most of these games have been pretty interesting.

[Voidedmafia]

idk, I liked the worlds where the meta wasn't figured out at the start of the season. Season 6 was by far the most boring worlds, followed by Season 4.

On one hand, I do agree that the uncertainty heading in can be a contributor to interesting matches, but I really think the best way to have that is probably to set up one or two different ways of playing that almost naturally clash against each other, such as the current late game scaling vs. early-game snowballing. Maybe it's not as explosively varied, but it's also not so unstable and volatile.

I mean, really, do you honestly want to have another Dairus situation at worlds?

[Voidedmafia]

Urgot is back!

Gam just revved the hype train back to overdrive.

[Voidedmafia]

Okay, I can't really blame IMT for losing this one. Urgot is really out of the meta nowadays. Maybe for poor macro play?

In any case, they have to beat Fnatic and hope FNC only beats GAM or else they're out or face a GAM tiebreak.

P-EDIT: Maybe so, but FNC can't lose to IMT. Actually, that game becomes a must-win for both teams to assure a chance to make it (or for IMT, assure a chance to guarantee making it)

[Voidedmafia]

Fnatic, the fuck are you doing?

P-EDIT: If GAM and FNC only get 1 win, then they're into quarters regardless.

[Voidedmafia]

If Fnatic wins against IMT, they have to beat GAM to cause a potential tiebreaker. GAM isn't going to beat LZ, but IMT may have a chance. If not, then it's a 3-way tie..

If IMT wins, Fnatic's done, but if they beat GAM it forces a GAM-IMT tiebreaker. Pretty much everything hinges first on IMT vs. FNC, then FNC vs. GAM.

[Voidedmafia]

Laugh it up, dram, laugh it up.

also, HOLY FUCK, COME ON, IMT!

P-EDIT: FNC HAS to go 2-1 now or else IMT has to risk it all on beaiting Longzhu. If GAM wins, IMT is basically out and the GPL goes to quarters for the first time since, like, TPA in 2012.

P-EDIT2: I'm actually not that against GAM going ahead, I just want IMT/NA to go before them and am really upset at how stupidly IMT is playing now.

[Voidedmafia]

Cody Sun had his Doublelift moment.

[Voidedmafia]

I have almost never been so glad to be so wrong. GAM has learned so much from both MSI and from Week 1. At this point you're almost betting on them going 3-0, but I can't just count LZ out like I could IMT or FNC.

IMT's basically done without GAM going 2-1.

P-EDIT: I find it utterly hilarious that this ace comes right after the casters say LZ need an SKT-like teamfight.

[Voidedmafia]

GAM and LZ are the best damn teams in this entire tournament.

[Voidedmafia]

Yes! IMT still has a chance!

They aren't gonna beat LZ (not that such a prediction from me hasn't been wrong before <_<), so I'm expecting to wake up to a bunch of tiebreaker matches. I'll be VERY surprised if IMT manage to pull together a win against LZ.

[Voidedmafia]

Holy shit, my Group B wasn't actually terrible. Granted, I had GAM as last so I messed up there, but I really didn't expect FNC to make it.

[Voidedmafia]

Quickficio?

EDIT: An amazingly quick turnaround from G2, especially against RNG. Is this gonna be Group B all over again, or is it still likely that RNG/SSG are the ones going ahead?

Also, why the hate against Immortals again? Asking as someone who hasn't really been paying attention to this thread this year/Summer.

[Voidedmafia]

If G2 doesn't beat SSG later on, they have to risk a tie. I think they should beat FB (to avoid saying they won't lose and then be proven wrong again), but I still have my doubts about them beating SSG I want to be surprised here, though.

P-EDIT: Same. Even if they don't make it, that was a statement game. Would be nice if an EU/NA team could actually prove that their MSI hype is warranted, though.

P-EDIT2: Come again?

[Voidedmafia]

IMMORT4LS.

4 Ls

Get it?

Ah.

Also, yes he is. Riot have a gem of a caster in him.

But still, the G2 curtain falls once again. At least they went out swinging unlike 2016.

[Voidedmafia]

I still think TSM is clearly the best team in their group, and definitely better than WE. I also don't really think it's fair to say historical precedent has them collapsing when historically they've been in absurdly stacked groups. No one is accusing G2 of choking or collapsing, for example.

I suppose that's fair, considering what some of their main opposition was.

2013: OMG, SKT (the two eventual winners of the group)
2014: At-the-time SHRC, SK and TPA (which was also a group they should've and did win out in, beside one stupid-ass late-game loss to SK)
2015: Origen and KT (and LGD but they really petered out at Worlds so idk if you could really call them part of a stacked group
2016: SSG, RNG and Splyce.

Yeah, for every year except 2014 and this one they've been in a group where it's either a Korea/China combo, a Korea/EU powerhouse combo (both OG and Fnatic were the two big favorites from EU in 2015), or a strong China team with weaker teams from EU and LMS (or I think still just the GPL in 2014, but I could be wrong there). I suppose it's still arguable whether or not this year's group falls into the last category, but we'll know for sure once W2 is over and how well Misfits do.

EDIT: G2 collapsed hard last year. They at least posted a strong win against RNG this year and a tough-ish loss to SSG (I mean, I feel like the last half hour of that game was G2 losing inch by inch plus a draft that kinda needed them to be more ahead/less behind than they were, but damn did they fight for every step), plus a presumed 2-0 against the wildcard team (I'm assuming they beat FB again; I had to go to bed before the FB v. RNG game because of work this morning. Plan to finish watching today.)

[Voidedmafia]

TSM 2-0ing WE gives us the absolute best chances of getting out.

At least this first game won't be censered.

P-EDIT: Probably? Although, IIRC the good Kalista players are in A and D, I think. Not sure about about though.

[Voidedmafia]

Damn, where was this FW yesterday after that loss to TSM?

EDIT: Nvm. Still, it does mean that if TSM beats WE the literal only ways they don't make it is losing a 3-way tie in two scenarios, and losing to FW in the other. That's it. WE have to hope for that or things get a lot harder.

Funnily enough, the three win-out scanarios where TSM only beats WE has Misfits be the other winner.

[Voidedmafia]

I was so close to cringing super-hard if they picked Leblanc into WE, but I'm glad he didn't. Same with Azir.

Still, TSM is playing to the lategame while WE is more early-mid. I feel alright about both drafts, I guess.

[Voidedmafia]

There goes NA. It's just gonna be C9 again, most likely.

Why the fuck aren't TSM doing anything early?

[Voidedmafia]

Sorry voided. Think I got you crossed up with kaleidoscope.

Edit. Oh wait, no.

Like, I get your point. I am extremely fatalistic/pessimistic compared to your optimism, and it's not like they can't still win against MSF and FW.

But their early game has been a huge gaping hole this entire groups, and WE was the first to expose it really hard and shut them down by playing to that early game (and doing it so damn well in the process). And both games TSM didn't get to their mid-late game goals, they lost pretty hard.

I'm just finding it very hard to believe that this is just TSM believing they can still make it late and/or testing the waters on late-game comps. They

must

adapt and not play so hard to the late game against Misfits or else they're out. That's all there is to it. And I haven't seen anything in their playstyle that suggests they're willing or able to do so; sven has been a huge liability for them, pretty much since MSI for the most part, which has kept Hauntzer, Bjergsen and DL having a chance to shine or do anything, it seems. It's like I hve to hoe this is one huge-ass kick in the crotch for them to realize they can't just ignore the early game because I can guarantee that almost no other team that has or will make it out will let that slide. Fnatic would be the only one I can think of, but they're both going to be #2 seeds if TSM even makes it.

P-EDIT: Yeah. Which is still an improvement since it means two teams made it out this year, but not the improvement we want.

[Voidedmafia]

TSM HAS to win both games or they're out or at absolute best get a tiebreak with MSF by winning that game. If they lose to MSF, they're out and EU gets 2 in.

C9 should have a far better day if they beat AHQ, but for fuck's sake...

[Voidedmafia]

#tsmtilt

This is what happens when you say "screw early game" and you don't have Korean-level play to make up for it. And now it costs TSM the entire tournament.

P-EDIT: Okay, they had

one

teamfight. Need more than that.

[Voidedmafia]

That was way too close for anyone's liking. Biofrost is still a god on Rakan.

Their early game is still such a big hole, though. I can't feel relieved until I know that part of it is at least somewhat patched if not fully fixed

[Voidedmafia]

NB4 FW plays spoiler...

They will.

[Voidedmafia]

Like, what the fuck. I just...

Why?!

[Voidedmafia]

It doesn't even matter anymore if TSM manages to make it out. They just utterly destroyed any amount of credit they have at Worlds or international tournaments becuse THEY CAN'T FUCKING LEARN TO PLAY THE EARLY GAME WORTH A DAMN.

It's the easiest shit in the world: You lost the early game all of week one. Best respons?

Don't double down on only late-game.

Is it really that hard to think "oh, we're failing at playing early. We should definitely try to shore that up so we at least don't lose so hard," because it's pretty obvious TSM never fucking bothered. They don't deserve to advance even if they do, and to be frank I'm almost feeling like they shouldn't even come back to Worlds with this disgrace.

[Voidedmafia]

And yes, I'm really upset because this was a very easily preventable situation. Ridiculously so. I can give some leeway in the WE game because the Caitlyn pick was really unconventional for the meta and WE played their siege comp pretty much to perfection, but TSM still could've tried to upset their plan by being proacive. Either put Cait down or play to put Hauntzer or Bergsen ahead more than they were, and Sven utterly failed at that (and has failed pretty much every game). Maybe they still would've lost due to WE's crispnes, but it wouldn't have been such a stomp. The Misfits game could've been a lot less of a comeback if they hadn't misplayed the early game. And the FW game was just..stupid play. Utterly stupid play.

This has been almost a more trying Worlds than 2015.

[Voidedmafia]

I'm almost feeling like they shouldn't even come back to Worlds with this disgrace.

they should win NA and then decline the worlds appearance right

Obviously they won't do that, but they can't really hold their heads high on an international stage, can they?

Sven needs to go, I think. Either to take a sabbatical like DL or just go altogether.

P-EDIT: I'd say just pack it up, LLD. Misfits has been looking far better than TSM today, despite the loss at TSM.

[Voidedmafia]

you are not a true fan. Don't be fairweather yo.

TSM PIGHTING!

You are aware we're probbly the two biggest TSM fans here, right?

Us shouting as loudly as possible isn't going to change how fucking stupid TSM has been and the fact that they are going to lose, lose badly, fail out of Worlds, and be n international disgrace for years to come.

[Voidedmafia]

Easiest fucking group. It could've only been easier with FB instead of WE. And they still fucked it up.

Are you telling me I'm not supposed to be critical of them, LLD?

[Voidedmafia]

-3 buff start
-no ganks top for the lane you need to stomp
-instead it gets stomped
-first sejuani ult at 23 minutes
-feelstsmman

In a nutshell.

[Voidedmafia]

Bye parth
Bye sven
Bye hauntzer

Whhy are we getting rid of Hauntzer? He's done pretty well and has been their savior at least once here at Worlds.

It's NA not innovating and improving from what they've seen and done

So, why is that? Were IMT and TSM just that confident in their playstyle that they didn't bother to learn anything else?

[Voidedmafia]

yeah, honestly TSM fans bug me more when they go the other direction. I'll call it the "Philadelphia Sports Fan" way.

Seems stupid and counterproductive to excuse poor and/or stupid play. Especially for a team that should be playing at a higher level than they actually did.

Plus, I don't like the idea that because I'm a TSM fan I must defend some/most/any wrongs they do as not their fault. You're probably not implying that, but.

[Voidedmafia]

Gotta be the half ass flyquest.

I could've sworn I heard/read somewhere that implied flyquest couldn't meet the requirements. Or maybe I'm just projecting comment guesses into other's mouths and they just declined.

[Voidedmafia]

Kind of sad but of all the originals the least sad... though liquid would be close in the least sad.

As an OG CRS fan I would stop watching pro lol if TL were to not get a spot

Considering Liquid's strong Esports base I would be very surprised if they weren't able to meet the requirements. I'd imagine that any decline would be due to the org's recent slide into the deep end, especially after they lost Fenix.

[Voidedmafia]

Good news about this Knockout: Potential for a Korean teamkill in SSG vs. SKT or Longzhu.

Bad news: Since there are no "good" matchups, C9, MSF and FNC are gonna have to bow out in Quarters. Like, the absolute best team to be matched against would be WE for C9 and FNC because SKT, Longzhu and RNG are humongous beasts--RNG less so than the Koreans, but I still feel like they're just a step above WE.

I can't decide which I want guaranteed more: China vs. Korea semis, or China vs. Korea finals.

[Voidedmafia]

FIZZDOOR

[Voidedmafia]

HOLY SHIT

This is what you think, then you remember EDG was in a far better position and still choked hard.

Sens: I agree. As a huge plus, though, c9 is guaranteed not to face SKT at least until semis. They just have to not get LZ. Same thing with AHQ.

Speaking of AHQ, I'm so fucking nervous right now.

P-EDIT: AHQ losing here is their best bet. But now it looks a lot less certain they can beat AHQ now. And I still doubt them beating SKT

[Voidedmafia]

THE GOD KILLERS STRIKE AGAIN!

And now you dare hope that only LZ is the behemoth to deal with.

[Voidedmafia]

Westdoor has a kid?

Looks like we got a badass dad up in here

P-EDIT: Huh. Makes a bit more sense. Why no LZ or RNG, though...?

[Voidedmafia]

I would honestly probably forsake and risk lz knowing my drafts just to ensure i'd get out of groups. Besides, SKT's still set for 1st plce, so it's not like there's any advantage there for TSM.

[Voidedmafia]

C9 playing like an LPL team. EDG is fucked, despite the scoreline.

So...How are they killing Galio, again? Or Jarvan? I'm all ears, really.

[Voidedmafia]

Hot damn, EDG. Where was this last week?

At least C9 still has a chance , and it means they aren't forced to beat SKT to tie. If they DO beat SKT somehow, the absolute worst they can do is tie., but if they don't c9 vs. AHQ becomes absolutely paramount. And if EDG mnages to 3-0 this week.

[Voidedmafia]

C9 actually put up a fight. They've been the most consistent and best-looking team since 2014, honestly.

But yeah, there was just too much for them to overcome, especially from the Jayce split.

P-EDIT: I'm...not sure. Were they expecting to wipe SKT at Elder and come back in time to beat Huni?

[Voidedmafia]

C9 and AHQ both going all-out, it seems, in this game. Maybe that can play to C9, though?

[Voidedmafia]

STOP THE PRESSES! AN NA TEAM ACTUALY HAS A LEAD COMING TO 15 MINS! IS IT HAPPENING??!