A Mid-Scummer Night's Dream [Dead PT]

[mhsmith0]

lol everyone being loved as the dream outcome. A really incredible mix of mainly useless stuff along with the occasional non terrible power like watch.

[mhsmith0]

I can't imagine why ceph keeps going on about two scum being any kind if possible. Nit really scummy per se but just dumb, there's almost never just two scum here.

[mhsmith0]

I also very much get the sense reg was pushing stuff which vaguely COULD be scum but wasn't much interested in whether it WAS scum. In particular I hated his Maria push. I hated drealz' too but I apply zero BOP to him so *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

I kinda think LLD/reg could EASILY be wolf-wolf so*shrugs*

Also a big part of the issue w LLD right now is that hider IS plausible as a role here. If she's scum fake claiming, then mids gave town...

1) a mason lover pair (obvious potential negative utility)
2) a bunch of essentially useless town PRs (barring idea that Sakura' could be used as a cop which is fairly skeezy design wise - cephrir and my powers were fairly likely to be useless, especially once you got to "my power didn't override scums global roleblock)")
3) a bunch of night powers that were an incredible mixed bag, along with scum getting a full roleblock for a night

The mason lovers in particular actually work ok with town KP or kill stopping power. However... said powers largely didn't exist (and the day lovers in MYLO outcome was partuclarly trolly), and it was highly conceivable and likely that scum would only need as many mislynches as they had members, which (unless town has a LOT of power and/or a vig who's missing, and again this clearly wasn't the case) is VERY questionable as a game design. Of course, I say this without being spoiled on full game design or the scum team so *shrugs*

I'd also say that this is an example of the problems with low/hidden info as a game design. I claimed in part because my zero info flip would have obscured my powers and potentially made town think things that weren't true (whatever if any info mastina/varsoon had on. I also disliked the battery a lot, particularly the "figure it out yourselves" aspect. If a design element is findable through the timing and the VCs, just explain the damn mechanic. It was also HIGHLY unclear exactly what it meant to have just one bar and how much time remained and whether there were 24 hours from there or not (since ZERO major vcs happened less than 24 hours apart), and that aspect of the mechanic very clearly impacted the nos mislynch, and very possibly impacted the Maria mislynch too, and that was a pretty predictable aspect of the game design (the counter being "well just don't let the game drag" but obviously people DO let the game drag and this didn't help w that at all)

[mhsmith0]

^
Whatever if any info mastina/varsoon had on LLD by role beyond just "well we're mason-lovers" was completely obscured by their flip (which was also highly predictable at the time by the way but oh well I guess)

[mhsmith0]

I'd also laugh my ass off if drealz was scum and just mere seconds separated out a day 2 scum lynch which would have changed the game a lot.

[mhsmith0]

Cause fucking anyone who has been reading this game in any capacity should realize that I'm reaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllly not scum.

Most of dead thread disagrees

[mhsmith0]

Of course my expectation if large theme balance could just be completely fucked over by kingdom hearts where well over half the town was a potentially useful or self-resolving or self-clearing PR and scum got the pu pu platter of garbage powers *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

I don't even know what you're talking about.

There is the potential that people in this game are either dream non-sensitive or can make themselves dream non-sensitive.

Like, I just REALLY hope that this is scum bullshit and nit an actual thought process around "let me try and make my PR claimseem EVEN MORE USELESS so that I can mislynch reg today despite my check"

[mhsmith0]

I mean imo it's kinda weird to be going explicitly for extra "do you guess right from these random hints for your powers" in game design for intentional extra swing but w/e.

[mhsmith0]

Why did scum not kill regfan last night, and why did smith die, which would confirm one of the claimed targets of lld as town?

It seems bad unless reg is scum.

"Why did scum confirm one of LLD's claimed targets as town"?

Like... what?

I mean, LLD if actually hider would have always just targeted reg there, and scum shooting there (if LLD/reg both town) is a pretty obvious move unless ALL THREE of them are super scared of the watcher (which should ALWAYS have been used on reg last night unless it was used the night prior or brian had it in which case it doesn't matter). Like, there's some downside to confirming people through death flips, but there's just fundamentally so much value to getting it into 4/3 LYLO that it's almost always worth it

I guess it's probably fair to publicly ask whether or not it's actually MYLO, because everyone being loved in MYLO is a completely broken mechanic, ESPECIALLY if there's any chance at all for scum to somehow log two town deaths the following night. Of course, I'm now dead and have no real impact on game state anymore so *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

I'll also say a decent % of my commentary completely goes out the window if it's somehow 14/3. In 14/3, town SHOULDN'T really be getting much and it's totally fine for mechanics to be confusing, trolly (like making everyone loved today pretty blatantly was), and for it to be fairly unlikely for town to really get any useful powers either at night or through rand.

I feel like 14/3 is pretty unlikely as a setup though so *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

I'd also say that it is VERY VERY VERY OBVIOUS that whoever got the watcher shot should claim BEFORE sakura claims who she gave it to. If there's ANY infomration to be gained from it (say, if the shot couldn't go to scum, or at least some scum were dream-immune) then whoever got it should claim it. Also if whoever got it was town and spent two nights holstering (I guess MAYBE unless it was reg since he was reasonably likely to die if town) then a valuable lesson can be learned about not doing a shitty mob with your PR in a mafia game (when it was ALWAYS ALWAYS the optimal move to use on reg last night to verify LLD's claim and/or see who shot him) *shrugs*

[mhsmith0]

Actually I could reasonably see LLD as a traitor here if hebi is groupscum and they know there's a traitor. A hider green check there makes it VERY clear who the traitor is, so scum will never shoot there, and at that point it's just running through the various nightkill targets.

[mhsmith0]

If I thought that Sakura tended to make good night action decisions I'd have called this a scum claim

D1 was regfan...
D2 was NMS...
D3 was Brian...
D4 was mhsmith...

I literally...
cant believe it myself...
every single time...
the person i target has died...
except for regfan...
i know the dream was global...
but i had already a target set anyway...
and didnt feel like switching it...

mastina n2 and myself n4 were particularly egregious targets given our PR claims

[mhsmith0]

FWIW I'm taking the LLD/Hebi scum team theory WAY more seriously right about now...

[mhsmith0]

In EITHER WORLD, only two people show up consistently. Drealmerz and TWIE. Of the two, TWIE is most likely to be the one I'm wrong on, given lurking is harder to read, and I could be fooled. I'm not fooled by Drealmerz.

LLD/Hebi/TWIE?

[mhsmith0]

There's no reason to believe that's possible

There's no reason to believe the dream will help us, or there isnt another scum "nightmare" to make is useless.

I'm not sure this is the worst post of the game... but it's gotta rank up there. In presumed MYLO, neither of these things are actually material concerns. The ONLY even theoretically relevant concern is that somehow there might be a vig shot that scum could get, and if that was actually the case then the game just officially becomes broken (I'd say it's nearly the same if there's any kind of way scum can achieve a global roleblock and shut down the dream again, but that probably depends on the precise power usage - but at any rate, making a global loved modifier in presumed MYLO [even if not locked as a result, simply the POSSIBILITY of it] is itself pretty broken and very much as a design, though as always it's less relevant if it's actually 14:3)

[mhsmith0]

Nah we're not lynching anyone but lld today. In a town - lld world no lynch is definitely the move

I guess I don't especially understand this part? If LLD is in fact a hider, then scum can potentially just win it at night if she hides at the wrong target? In a town!LLD world (which probably doesn't exist), then lynching iscum and having her die at night would be optimal right?

I guess you could say that you NL and she is required to hide at Sakura night 5, then either she dies (because scum knock off the BP) and confirms her targets (which would be HUGE if actually relevant) or she just gets turbolynched the next day with hopefully a non garbage town power given n5.

Of course, that's a game losing strategy if you're in a town!LLD and scum!Sakura world, but that's a super narrow possibility, and it's not even like it's one that she claims to be mulling over.

[mhsmith0]

no lynch was the fundamentally predictable outcome of setting up a mass loved modifier in (presumably) MYLO. Why did you guys let that happen as part of the design????

[mhsmith0]

How did you guys assign the various dream possibilities and when they can happen? Something like this seems like a "eh, maybe throw it in early game" sort of thing; it just seems really weird to have any kind of rotation setup where having this in LYLO/MYLO is realistically an option.

[mhsmith0]

That sounds like a structure kind of built for extreme swing, all the more so since you don't tell town what the dreams actually do. Do scum know what the dreams do?

[mhsmith0]

Like, presuming LLD is scum (pretty likely IMO), town got PRs:

a dream overrider (essentially useless)
a dream vote counter (essentially useless)
a dream power assigner (BARELY useful, and that's just if scum can get dreams)
two lover-masons (nearly useless, and actively NU barring extra killing or kill-prevention powers for town, which baseically didn't exist)

and then ended up with dream powers that were also pretty useless so far.

MAAAYBE that's ok if LLD is like a traitor here, but even that seems reachy for any kind of sensible balance, unless it really was that town got completely boned by the RNG gods for dream outcomes.

[mhsmith0]

Neither side know what the dreams do. A fraction of the dreams are potentially pro-scum, but the majority are either neutral or pro-town.

Doing that, while giving town pretty close to zero power through actual roles (unless LLD was actually a hider, but even there town is super underpowered even before scum getting a seemingly needless global (factional???) roleblock)...

Is this actually 14/3? Was this reviewed for balance?

I don't want to be a jerk about it, but you guys DO realize that for any kind of reasonable balance towns need a substantial amount of power right?

[mhsmith0]

Note: it's hard to really evaluate that without knowing what you mean by "proscum" "neutral" and "protown"

Loved seems like waht you'd consider neutral, even though fuctionally it's pretty proscum to have that as a possible MYLO/LYLO outcome. So if there's objectively proscum stuff like roleblocks, facitonal vigs, rolecops, etc etc etc... that seems pretty sketchy IMO, at least with the amount of town power that's been discussed.

So far, "protown" stuff has been:
1) 1-shot bp
2) 1-shot watcher

That's really really weak for town power via dreams (presuming that's supposed to be where town power mainly exists) all the way through MYLO.

[mhsmith0]

You've certainly it looks like something like a BP or commuter or similar protective-ish power. Given that BP already popped up and that I'm GUESSING you guys didn't want to repeat dreams and that for some reason it seems like you guys think commute is a non-shitty power for town to have, I'll guess commute.

[mhsmith0]

I'm happy to wait until game end for spoilers and setup discussion, but I'm not convinced town had enough setup information to effectively use their powers.

Actually maybe LLD has been telling us that Ceph's role is scum all along. I guess it's not really any use as town, but if scum get the result in moonlight (and the role isn't 1-shot), it's possible they're meant to be able to use it to mess with town's choices. But I was rather convinced by reg's townread on ceph in combination with all of the early townreads on Reg by the strong town slots. Maybe it's actually LLD/ceph/reg?

I've already vented to cabd/ffery on discord... but yeah this all seems just flagrantly scumsided as a setup, and if any PR claim (sakura or ceph) was somehow ALSO scum then it just gets so much worse.

I also don't really get why they're not explaining what happened there, but that part is more of a design preference and I guess sort of understandable even if it's pretty weird.

[mhsmith0]

If sakura's ability could actually have been a created cop that would have been interesting, but even there you're looking at something super subtle (and people can always claim shenanigans anyway), and a bunch of nights didn't even have a power assignment dream (sakura also blatantly ignored the discussion around whether it could be used as a cop and did literally nothing ever to test that, but that's also a pretty obvious potential outcome and I think a lot of townies wouldn't have bothered to put any real thought into the role in her shoes). It basically takes a lot of luck for it to work that way, and then you're probably looking at a salty scum team given the created cop sort of functionality (though the dream assigner being given the BP was fairly obviously a low probability outcome too).

I'd tend to agree that ceph's ability doesn't really have a useful town aspect, but I can reasonably see something where in design they were like "omg the dreams are super obvious what they do, now we can force accountability", which is kind of silly given how things actually went and the poor correlation between dream titles and dream outcomes (and I fell like this should have been really obvious during design/review)... but I can buy it as a real design process.

But a game setup of:

13v4
Town
Two Mason-lovers
1-shot dream vote overrider
nightly dream recipient assigner (when most dreams aren't 1-shot powers)
dream vote counter
bunch of VTs

Scum
bunch of goons, and some kind of role-based or factional global roleblock, and maybe more stuff too?

Plus various dreams, most of which were blatantly useless for town (I'd take townies who didn't vote for the 1-shot power last night to task... except that power was blatantly presented in its description as being essentially useless)... that's just really really unbalanced. Making sakura or ceph role a fakeclaim by scum as well just makes it far more so. I very strongly suspect the designers didn't bother to think through the implications of the mason-lovers dying and taking away a mislynch from town (MAAAAYBE they overvalued the odds of kill power or killstopping power going to town or something), and frankly LLD's claim of hider fit super well into the game state given the nearly zero level of power that town had gotten up to then, as well as all the power that was subsequently reviewed. Credit for LLD for a decent fakeclaim there, but super demerits to the mod for making a fake claim so easy to pull off via setup and the lack of town power.

I'd say scum was the better team here, and credit to them. Lord knows my play was pretty crap in the end. But a LOT of town's failure stemmed from the setup being broken enough that scum could make a fakeclaim and ride it for a while, mainly on the concept that town's power was just brutally nerfed here so town needed SOMETHING that wasn't utter trash. And that part is on the mods, not on town.

/rant

[mhsmith0]

A tracker or rolecop isn't the kind of information role that can carry a town. (And the scum seriously do not need a roleblocker to counter a tracker/doctor combination, or a mafia doctor against a two-shot vig.)

but ppl THINK they do

because they remember the couple freak occurrences of a tracker getting multiple guilties (like organic chemistry) and they don't remember the million times it didn't do squat.

FWIW... kinda feel like this is a relevant attitude in setup. I would GUESS that basically a path to a potential town steamroll was identified (just like theoretically if you have a town tracker or roleblocker in a game they COULD end up carrying the game even if most of the time they don't do anything useful at all), and then from there you got some combination of a bunch of town power getting nerfed, relevant information being hidden from town, etc etc etc.

In particular I don't think that scum needed at all the global roleblock or the major lovers nerf to the masons. Take those two things away... and I'd still guess it's decently scumsided, though at least there you probably get more into a question of how bad the RNG dream luck was for town.

Anyway enough ranting for a while, smtih out.

[mhsmith0]

This is probably where drealz (if town) should be voting LLD and forcing the dipole. Force math v ceph to happen a different day.

[mhsmith0]

I mean, he DID try and force that dipole early, but {REDACTED SETUP COMPLAINT}

[mhsmith0]

I think Reg and It ends are almost certain scum, because I'm town, Mathblade is probably town (despite this weirdness) and I think LLD vs Dream is t v s one way or another.

I still have no clue on cephrir.

Identifies three scum, claims clueless on other slot
Glgl

[mhsmith0]

Mechanics/balance wise, it's actually a lot BETTER to have that risk given how (apparently) unlikely it was for town to ever get a night kill or stop a night kill. Goign back to odds is substantially +EV. LLD not being town here is a setup bust barring something really really odd going on otherwise... it's just that she's very probably just a wolf and the setup has a massive bust, is all.

[mhsmith0]

LLD and Hebi are on Drealmerz and Day isn't over so those would be the only two world yep.

And if LLD and Hebi are bussing then we let them lol.

So you with me? And ready for day end?

Okay, finished my call.

If it's LLD/Hebichan/Dreamlz then lynching Dreamlz here is fine and doable with them bussing each other votes.
If it's Dreamlz/Cephrir/TWIE then lynching Dreamlz here is fine and doable with their votes and mine and yours.
If it's LLD/Hebichan/TWIE we lose by lynching Dreamlz, but if it's LLD/Hebichan/TWIE we probably lose via Dreamlz being mslynched at some point anyway?

Like I get where you're coming from in that lynching Dreamlz beats the most worlds and beats the worlds we can beat.

Just how confident are you in it not being the last world? If you don't think it's the last world then voting Draemlz is fine.

that's pretty horrifying as a post there

LLD/Hebi/Reg for postgame credit

Reg's maria push in particular was always disgusting and if he's town then I'm incredibly disapointed w what he'd done here

[mhsmith0]

Gg?

[mhsmith0]

lol didn’t even need all wolf votes there

Looking forward to review thread game seemed broken but will re-evaluate

[mhsmith0]

That’s because you assumed non-obvious things were obvious

[mhsmith0]

Probably this game is still scumsided if you turn a vt into a cop

[mhsmith0]

In hindsight we probably would have given town a bit more power but we hardly expected everyone to ignore the very obvious flavor hints as to what each dream did picture and text wise. Also the lack of mechanical discussion period really killed towns PRs.


More in the postgame thread but fully admit it didn't work out to perfectly even. Scum still played well and town poorly regardless of that

We never got anything useful to discuss mechanically because dream information was very intentionally obscured through out the game. We did get hidden flips so that people could make wrong assumptions about how PRs worked though, that was cool.

[mhsmith0]

In town's defence, the setup worked out closer to balanced with LLD town (or at least scum-reg being unable to receive a dream), which is a major reason she wasn't lynched earlier, and things kind of snowballed from there.

Exactly.

[mhsmith0]

I promise to look at review thread and see if my mind should change. Best I can do.