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[Thor665]

fair to say fitz is hardcleared due to mulch f9 spew

f9 spew?

yes, the spew from when we had 9 players left.

with skitter dead, scum!mulch could not hard tunnel a scum player to get him lynched because he could never lategame with it. the reason is, scum!mulch would 'send fruit' 3 nights in a row exactly to the NK, which would make him very likely the last scum. he'd also eventually out himself on town PRs flipping, as you said, for the unlikelihood all PR claims are town (as 5 is overkill in a 13er).

mulch absolutely needed mislynches that gameday, and screamed the hardest for the fitz lynch. so fitz has to be town.

I'll have to go back and look at that - but I didn't feel like Mulch was actually pushing much of either of them that well.
Also, I would note I just lynched Skitter - it would be daft of him to push me if I was town jsut as much as it would be daft to push me if I was scum.
So the logic here is very thin as far as I can see.

you wanted to lynch tacos the entire game and now it's either me or fitz huh

Yes.
And?

he was pushing very very hard for the fitz lynch. he was asking people to join him on the wagon.

aaaaaand is pretty inconsistent with what you've been saying and, unlike me, it's not like you did any work in the game to change your reads.

Going back to look - he did not hard push Serg, and indeed had him as no lynch at the start of the day, changing towards the end of the next day when his own lynch looked more imminent.
Why do you hard clear that?

I am unaware that it takes work to change reads - but, yeah, I haven't gone out of my way to show my work for changing reads.
And?

[Thor665]

I'm talking about fitz here, not sergtacos. I'm not clearing sergtacos for that gameday, I'm saying it looks good on him. I'm clearing fitz.

For a guy complaining that I'm not being clear in my reads...this feels like you're not being clear.
Why are you clearing Serg? You quoted a post where Mulch attacked him and Fitz and not me and you and used that as evidence - I pointed out that he *didn't* do what you said he did at the start of the day and asked why that helped Serg.
So why do you clear Serg if not what you already said?

why is sergtacos suddenly town? why is fitz scum? why am I scum?

I looked back at the stuff you were arguing yesterday about how Serg and Mulch didn't make a lot of sense as a scumteam and it started to sell me.
It sold you twice, it can certainly sell me once.
I am not actually calling you particularly likely scum (as usual you seem to not grasp what I say - which is annoying because you keep adding in meaning and not looking at explanations that directly counter your conclusions, so I know I'm not being vague as I can literally quote me saying that I don't really think you're likely scum)
I think Fitz is scum because the Serg push on Mulch and the the Skitter push on Chip feel un bus like.

[Thor665]

I'm starting to think a fitz/you lynch is the way to a win right now.
And I'm even thinking its not you and you're just being daft.

I mean, this is literally where you have to be getting fitz and you as scum.

BUT ARE YOU SMART ENOUGH TO READ THE SECOND LINE YOU DERP?

Stop wasting my time with idiocy - seriously now, I'm not hiding my thoughts.

[Thor665]

I'm saying it's not fitz because of how hard mulch pushed him on d3. do you need me to explain the point again?

I'm not the one asking you to explain a scumread on someone you're saying you're not scumreading particularly.
Do you need me to explain why that's annoying?

mulch had fitz at L-2 and was instigating you, HEM and chip to vote with him. if he got that lynch, he'd be the last scum left. he'd then be mechanically outed by sending multiple 'fruit' to the NKs. it's not fitz.

Why would he be begging his scumpartner (who you seem to imply understood Mulch's PR limitations more than Mulch himself did) to vote for a town player?
Also he was kind of empty flailing the fitz push while hedging on the Serg one - neither feels like a solid clear push to me.
If those pushes clear them, shouldn't my vastly stronger and clearer push on Skitter (and equal one on Mulch, and by Mulch on me) clear me?
Why don't they?
Your thoughts seem very muddled to me.
I don't feel like you're applying tells equally.

Since you like Mulch meta - do this meta on me.
Look up how good of an idea I currently think bussing is (last year or two).
Then come back and explain your case on me.

[Thor665]

PoE weaksauce empty gak is what I'm dealing with here - you're either scum or have shut off your vrain and then are complaining about my thought process.
It's very frustrating and is shutting down valid communication.

[Thor665]

maybe you're failing to comprehend why the push on fitz is clearing, and comparing to your push on skitter makes no sense:

if scum is mulch and fitz, and fitz gets lynched on d3, mulch will have n3, n4 and n5 where he'll 'send fruit' to the person getting NKed because he is the only scum left. he'll be outed and lynched as a result. he can't be hard advocating for a scum partner lynch on d3 because he cannot make endgame as a scum fruit vendor.

what can't you understand in this?

Because I fail to understand the difference in the pushes.
You literally want to discount all scum pushes prior to Skitter's flip simply because it puts Mulch in a worse situation.
What put Mulch in that worse situation?
The Skitter flip.
Therefore that push matters.

I understand it's important to rule it out to have the case on me make "any sense at all" but it's still illogical.
Also, I will presume you're intentionally ducking the meta request - top level town play there or what?

[Thor665]

Why are you only responding to half of whatever I post?
Are we having a conversation, or are you just ranting?

[Thor665]

I mean, clearly your rule out logic is apparently locked in and you refuse to accept the hypocrisy of it leaving me to assess whether this is derp or scum play - fine.
Why are you ducking the meta conversation though?

[Thor665]

I'm responding to what I think is relevant. I'm telling you exactly why fitz is cleared and you're pretending to not understand what the point is. you're even comparing it with you pushing skitter and "fail to understand the difference in the pushes", which is not only awful but seriously alignment indicative.

As far as I can tell I appear to fully understand your point, I'm just saying it's hypocritical and stupid to narrow your view - and I even shook my head and walked away from it.
So what are you still fake spewing about?

I'm not meta reading you. you wanna know why? because you asked me the same thing on d3 about mulch, I went through a bunch of his games, hard cased him based off meta, and you simply ignored it. and I'm especially not 'metaing' you because you think bussing is bad or whatever. In fact, if you're scum, then clearly you don't like to bus since you didn't even push mulch when he was mechanically outed.

SO because something worked for you - you now refuse to do it again because I, your most important reviewer ever, disagreed with you?
Whut?
That's stupid and illogical.
Are you lying or are you serious?
Because if serious...whut?

I think Fitz is scum because the Serg push on Mulch and the the Skitter push on Chip feel un bus like.

1. So POE based on your bus meter? That's it?
2. Why aren't you voting me?

1. I don't see how me ruling myself out affects my read on you or anyone else exactly. I am pretty sure everyone rules themselves out.
2. Because I'm not overly confident in my reads right now - wading through the bad play is extremely difficult at this stage. Between you not understanding when lylo happens, Toranaga feeling the need to do a twist case, Chip hard tunneling Toranaga and unable to talk anything else, and Serg hard lurking I've got very little to work with here.

[Thor665]

1. Oh, wait, I get it "bus meter" as in how I assess busses?
Yes - exactly that. That's how all tells are assessed, by the subjective analysis - what's surprising there?

[Thor665]

Well, sure, ignore the blatant one and meta me on something no one has ever managed an accurate take on before,
I'll be over here squealing in glee.
Why are you ignoring my super powerful opinion about meta that shapes the way you game?

Pedit;

1. You're not, and I am also not voting you and have been defending you - so learn how to assess play.
2. Figure out in a world where I think Chip, Serg, and you are town I am left with few options and the realization that scum may have *gasp* distanced.

[Thor665]

If you ignore alts and rule out multiple scum games - sure, it could be.

[Thor665]

you can't be cleared on the skitter lynch because you 'don't bus'.

I find that comical as a stance.

[Thor665]

I agree - though I think we disagree on who is doing the exploiting.

Your entire case on me is filled with 'buts' wherein you note I wouldn't do something 'but'
And that's why it's a weak case that can't be functionally discussed with you - because you're being blind and holding me to a different criteria than anyone else.

[Thor665]

Oh Thor doesn't bus...but
Oh lots of people were not swayed by my meta case including Thor...but
Oh Thor helped lynch a scum...but
Oh multiple people including Thor were attacked by flipped scum...but

And on and on.

After I flip town which of your solid town reads is the weakest to you and why?

[Thor665]

@Toranaga - I literally just skimmed past all the idiocy of you explaining how I'm scum. Either you're daft or you're scum - but that case is pure derp and I don't care to debate with a wall anymore.

tacos would be my weakest because he did write wolfy stuff (especially wrt porkens lynch), and he is definitely not playing up to his normal aids-y town meta. he is not playing this gameday and is slanking hard. I don't like his vote on me but everyone is scumreading me one way or the other so IDK if that holds any weight.

it would be the case where mulch would set himself up to be eventually flipped and tacos would bus him the entire game. with great tone in the interactions, sure, but still.

I stand by that d3 stuff with fitz being clearing of his slot. mulch did not play to endgame this at all, and I'm sure he knew that. he wouldn't bus for credit on d3 after skitter flipped because he'd be eventually outed anyway.

I guess chip butty deserves me meta reading him but I do find his overrall behaviour townie in his own awful chip butty way. it does need re-eval at any f3 though.

Swrg used to be your strongest clear if Mulch was town - why is the Fitz stuff (at a point where theoretically Mulch knew he was dead, had less credibility, and couldn't be playing for endgame) the *less* likely bus?

[Thor665]

serg would be my strongest clear if mulch was scum, as an ongoing read before mulch flipped. now that mulch flipped, I re-evaluated that stuff from d3 that I didn't before. this fitz hardclear for d3 I only really considered this gameday.

Why do you clear the Mulch push after the point he was in a riskier position and knew he should give town cred to the one partner who would need to go the distance?

@Thor...who's scum if not me?

I've already answered this and even debated it as recently as this morning or yesterday evening.
Feel free to keep fake reading?

[Thor665]

I feel like skitter is kind of a TMI scum type of player, who just notices scummy shit their partners did and then push them for it. if you check her posts, she had a lot of correct reads and pushed mulch a lot as well.

I do recall him thumping on Mulch which seasoned my Mulch read but I remember the Chip push being harder, not softer - I'll go back and look.

Feel free to keep fake reading?

Was this a question?

Between skimming each post...unless one is of interest...and not having total recall...I might ask the occasional question that has been answered in the haystack.

In the interest of currency (not money) I don't think asking the who do you suspect question is ever inappropriate. Unless just immediately discussed as Tor did.

I knew you suspected Tor to some degree but as I'm not scum...from my pov I wanted to know who your second was if not me.

It was a retort - considering Toranaga had been misrepresenting my reads and I'd had to correct him I felt no need to repeat my reads for an empty question that is functionally meaningless at this point and that you easily could have researched.

If Tor and I are both town who is your third scumspect and why?
I think your reads look very bad.

[Thor665]

So if you are today's lynch (and flip town) and by some miracle Tor is the NK...knowing who you suspected most beyond me (who is town) is an empty and functionally meaningless question? smh.....

And then you ask me the same thing I am trying to get answered from you.

Not true - I was asking you your third, which you hadn't stated.
You asked me my second which I'd already stated.
I understand wanting the info of second lynch suspect - I was mocking you for not already knowing it.
Big difference.

I also find your reads bad because your top scum reads are both the wagon leaders on the flipped scum.
That's just daft.
I can see one for paranoia - but 2? Nah, you're derp clearing something, or are yourself scum.

On that note...this doesn't feel like the Thor I remember. You are being very indecisive IMO and not really trying. Just disagreeing with others for the sake of disagreeing...or producing content. IDK. I mean sure...the charm and sharp wit are still present but the scum hunting I would expect from you is not.

Look at Days 1-3 where it's there in spades and not today where I'm clearly annoyed and half checked out.

interesting thing about thor's position right now is that his only remaining equity if he is scum is by getting me lynched. I'm not saying he is 100% scum if he does, but if he is scum, he'll lynch me ahead of chip butty because he always loses every f3 scenario if chip gets lynched.

^for your f3 considerations

That's a joke and not even remotely true.
Besides, my win ratio in lylo is massive on average and I see nothing to change it here. If I'm scum you're a top scumspect - think about that and consider what you've done this game if you're town, and then you're going to tell me I'd have problems in lylo?

[Thor665]

This is dumb, and all of you are dumb.

VOTE: havingfitz

Hammer away.

[Thor665]

So I'm who you suspect the most? Did I miss your case during my fake reading?

Depends how you define 'case' but I've assuredly discussed why I generally rule out other people and don't rule out you.

wow that's a towny vote

It was a bit towny other than the fact it is on town. You joining it is not however.

Thor...I'm town. Switch to Tor.

Taco...I'm town. Don't mindlessly sheep Tor.

If Tor is scum he's still a better lynch tomorrow when he's pretty much obligated to a 50/50.
I don't get the objective logic of lynching him before me if you think we're both generally possible scum.

[Thor665]

I don't get the objective logic of lynching him before me

I suspect him more. Is that objective enough for you?

That;s an answer, but I still don't really get excited by the logic that has the two of us as your top scumspects and it doesn't make a lot of sense.
The logic that clears any of the other guys functionally could apply to Tor and myself also - and we also have the benefit of leading better anti-scum pushes on top of it.

Your suspicions feel like you came in and saw Tor and me having our paranoia of each other - and then decided to run with both cases without noting that both were paranoia based cases.

[Thor665]

1. I do buy Tor's claims in a general sense, and also have noted my own thoughts on why he seems generally less likely scum.
2. I've seen you make lylo based points, which I'll agree are true, but which functionally apply to everyone at this stage. I have not seen a particularly telling point that applies to him, and him alone.
3. Mildly - yes.

[Thor665]

What happened to your firm belief Taco is scum? How has his play today changed your mind on that because that seems to have been where your head was yesterday and at the beginning of today.

His play today has been utterly atrocious, as I'm sure you're aware.
I, like I presume you, have cleared him more on the revelation that Mulch was scum and his interactions with that slot.

Whereas now you see a win being assured with a me lynch followed by a Tor lynch. If I am mislynched today (I am town btw) why would you assume Tor was here tomorrow TO lynch? smh…. Apparently you are not in the Tor is the guaranteed NK camp that Tor is spouting.

No, I am not in that camp.

1. If Tor’s less likely scum…why is he your forecast lynch for tomorrow if/when I am mislynched?

2. We agree…I speak the truth.

3. So mildly townreading = 2nd most suspect player in the game FYPOV?

1. Because I find him more likely scum than the other slots.
3. Yes, I don't get why that is confusing - if I townread all the slots except yours, then my second highest scumread will also be a townread.

[Thor665]

I, like I presume you, have cleared him more on the revelation that Mulch was scum and his interactions with that slot.

Doesn't seem Mulch's alignment mattered eaely this day when you made these comments:

I pretty much just want to vote Tacos.

Why aren't you guys trying to dig for information?

What information do you think I should be digging for?
Literally the only thing stopping me from voting you right now is that I'd like to see fitz offer up some thoughts.
That's all I've got.

Okay.
Is your complaint that I changed my mind, or that I didn't change my mind on a given timeline?

[Thor665]

Agreed, other than all the people screaming about how bad the game was, the game was quite good.

[Thor665]

Thor, curious, did you really town read me or were you trying to have me carry you into f3 with me?

If I was convinced enough you were scum that I'd try to gambit you - I probably would have just voted you.

Tor should have been conf town from claim. Lots of newer people so I guess I can get not knowing setup spec but curios why thor didn't see that.

Grats town.

For you and Toranaga (who suspected me for having him as a major scum read - despite no evidence that I ever did) - please go quote where I voted him after his claim.
I'll wait.

[Thor665]

Like, literally my only beef with Toranaga was how much he suspected my slot, *when I should have been basically just as clear as him*.

[Thor665]

For me it was a slight scum tell.

Anyone taking pains to post excuses for suboptimal play (e.g. I'm drunk posting guys!) seems like someone trying to distance from their play. Ergo - scum.

[Thor665]

It remains a valid slight scumtell for me even if town players are silly enough to do it.

[Thor665]

Like, in the worst case scenario, they're town telling the truth - in which case you're lynching a player who doesn't care to be mentally functional in a puzzle solving and logic/intuition game which is based on using your mind to sort clues.

[Thor665]

Thank you.
They took some liberties, but I think the core truth of the story still shines through.