Mini Normal 1946 | Classic Hits | Town Victory!
- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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In post 678, Thor665 wrote:
VCA is scummy now?In post 673, Mulch wrote:The issue is that your trying to say their had to be scum on Havo's wagon, which is bad. It's pinging me in the sense that your trying to overjustify it instead of just saying, here let's take a random 6 players and someone has to be in it, your trying to make it seem like there have to be scum in the Havo wagon in particular, which is just false and slightly scummy
Go learn to play newb
Are you kidding me?In post 674, Mulch wrote:Robb was already getting into his tunnely mode, it was a harmless joke, stop pressing on this or your getting into scummy territory.
That's an utter BS defense and logic - naw, I think I'll keep that as an issue with you forever now,
Whatcha' gonna do? Scumread me for it?In post 687, Thor665 wrote:
I'm pushing you right now.In post 683, Mulch wrote:
LMAO I don't even know why I'm even humoring you with a "defense."In post 678, Thor665 wrote:That's an utter BS defense and logic - naw, I think I'll keep that as an issue with you forever now,
Your fine until you try to push on me with it, then we have a problem
Do we have a problem?
Slips absolutely exist.
I've been scum and slipped.
I've been town and used slips.
I know that since you maybe slipped it's important for you to advance this silly notion, but...nah.
^In post 689, Thor665 wrote:
How many examples of this do I need to show to have you admit that you don't know how the game works?In post 686, Mulch wrote:Scum don't leave votes on their partners and forget about it for days and just passively sit there waiting for them to be lynched lmao
One?
Because it sounds like one.
Do we have a deal?
Yes, I actually do exactly that.In post 686, Mulch wrote:BTW please don't tell me you tried to do VCA without any flips
If you want to ignore wagons in your scumhunting that's your business - but until you explain why considering wagons is bad town play, I'll keep doing things the right way.
good interactions imo- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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^In post 770, Thor665 wrote:
Firstly - a case of 'not scumhunting' is one I'll have to agree to disagree with Havo on as far as its quality.In post 768, skitter30 wrote:Yes, I did, to the point that Havo himself says that my argument, at L-1, was the first 'decent accusation' against him (156).
Secondly - no, you still didn't push him hard.
Maria tried to avoid voting you for odd reasons - true or false? Because the answer is true as far as i can see.In post 768, skitter30 wrote:Maria voted me in 181, which, oddly enough, is why I linked that post. You're arguing that I opportunistically hopped on his wagon and hoped that other people would get called out for wagoning him. By putting him at L-1, I knew I would be taking the flak if I was wrong about him, which I was, and I immediately got wagoned for it. That's literally the opposite of 'keeping my hands clean'.
I also still don't see you claiming you put in work to get him lynched, which is still what I said you were trying to avoid. We're now into this 'flak' side debate, which I still don't think you absorbed a lot of either. Your example are three people besides me - one avoided voting you, one voted you while attacking someone else, one was Mulch the goldfish. Yeah - tons of assault there. Even if I agreed that was an amazing assault of power and conviction I'm not sur what it would prove. You did slip in lazily on the wagon while not pushing it.
You are claiming I'm tunneled and are using as evidence for it that my "other" pushes aren't making sense.In post 768, skitter30 wrote:I'm pointing out that you *are* ridiculously tunneled on me, to the point that some of your other pushes don't even make sense with your push on me.
1. If I have "other" pushes how tunneled am I exactly?
2. Have I claimed you are scum with these "other" pushes? Because otherwise how is this an issue?
3. I still don't see the issue here.
4. You don't know what tunneling is.
So...?
damn- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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skitter in all her glory explaining why chip butty is actually scumIn post 1363, skitter30 wrote:So, I wrote a catchup novel. Spoilered cuz I write a lot.
Spoiler:
I'm somewhere like here atm:
{HEM, WM}
{tor}
{misere, Thor, serg}
{mulch, fykus}
{chip, BBT} --- not scum together
VOTE: chip
she was scum but the reasons are still A+- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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because mulch almost got fitz lynched. he started screaming that he was sure fitz was scum when fitz was at l-2. and it's not hard to understand why this would bite him in the ass later.In post 3476, Thor665 wrote:
Why do you clear the Mulch push after the point he was in a riskier position and knew he should give town cred to the one partner who would need to go the distance?In post 3456, Toranaga wrote:serg would be my strongest clear if mulch was scum, as an ongoing read before mulch flipped. now that mulch flipped, I re-evaluated that stuff from d3 that I didn't before. this fitz hardclear for d3 I only really considered this gameday.
I've already answered this and even debated it as recently as this morning or yesterday evening.In post 3462, havingfitz wrote:@Thor...who's scum if not me?
Feel free to keep fake reading?
in fact, mulch pushed the misère;fitz slot all game.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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I feel like skitter is kind of a TMI scum type of player, who just notices scummy shit their partners did and then push them for it. if you check her posts, she had a lot of correct reads and pushed mulch a lot as well.
clearing chip butty for her hard push on him is a mistake. when she hard cased chip butty, neither chip nor her were wagons and a villager was getting 4 or 5 votes (fykus). she really has no motivation as scum to hard case someone else and basically ignore fykus, so it can absolutely be distancing.
one thing I noticed as well, she had BBT and chip as top scumreads, but her thoughts and push on mulch were much harder than whatever she said about BBT, and yet mulch was a tier above BBT;chip. I can see her doing this just to add an eventual mislynch to her top scumreads because the other one is actually scum. as in, if chip was town she'd more likely just have chip and mulch as top scumreads.
we're letting him coast on basically that push + being too scum aligned to be scum, but his last two gamedays were tragically bad.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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thor, I have quoted skitter's case on chip. yes it is much harder than her mulch push, but forget that she was scum and look at the case itself: isn't it very strong? we shouldn't disregard chip butty's scummyness because a scum pushed him for them, right?
look at his posts in the gameday mulch got lynched. it's reeking of scum. this gameday as well. his entrance into this gameday is already a contradiction, and he is talking pure mechanical insanity wrt the likelihood of me being some kind of scum role.
I like your d1 and I kinda like some things from you this gameday. I think you're being quite dense, not gonna lie, but I like how you behaved when put on L-1. you started scumreading fitz when votes on you were me and sergtacos, which could reasonably result in your lynch.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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chip butty's awful voting throughout the game:
- was on Havo's wagon when he was L-1, putting him on L-2 (Havo (5): Misère, Toranaga, humaneatingmonkey, WhyMafia, Chip Butty, skiter30 L-1). notice first vote on havo was the fitz slot, second was me. skitter was L-1 and chip was L-2.
- was not on skitter's wagon when she was L-2 (skitter30 (5): Fykus, MariaR, Thor665, Toranaga, BlueBloodedToffee L-2)
- was on mariar's wagon when she was lynched (MariaR (7): Chip Butty, Mulch, Thor665, BlueBloodedToffee, Misère, skitter30, Fykus (LYNCH) )
- was on me when I was screaming to have skitter lynched: (skitter30 (4): Toranaga, Thor665, Sergtacos, Fykus) (Toranaga (3): Mulch, Chip Butty, humaneatingmonkey)
- was on the porkens mislynch: (Porkens (5): havingfitz, Chip Butty, humaneatingmonkey, Sergtacos, CheekyTeeky -- Lynch!)- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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In post 3075, Chip Butty wrote:I'm here and catching up. Why am i not surprised that Toranaga is still here, and HEM is dead despite his obviously bogus claim? More in an hour or two.In post 3165, Chip Butty wrote:I think the million dollar question here is why a claimed Town tracker wouldn't be NKed on a night when he has a track and the only other real choice is an obviously bogus claim. There would be no blowback in killing him because he was the obv NK. There's no need to keep him alive for framing.
If Mulch were NKed, on the other hand, it leads back to Toranagger, who therefore did need to frame.In post 3166, Chip Butty wrote:In other news, Toranagger outs himself as a thoroughly toxic human being, but i am trying to look past that since it is NAI, even though he is making it difficult to do so.
^ all chip butty's posts in the gameday we got mulch lynched.In post 3168, Chip Butty wrote:
After you asked me where you touched me, and how old i was, yeah.In post 3167, Toranaga wrote:
oh no I'm poopy to play with says the guy who accused me of fantasizing about himIn post 3166, Chip Butty wrote:In other news, Toranagger outs himself as a thoroughly toxic human being, but i am trying to look past that since it is NAI, even though he is making it difficult to do so.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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ok just to make my gameday clear:
I started on tacos as a reaction to not getting NKed + tacos' porkens stuff that was weird;
I then re-read everyone and cleared tacos, which pointed me to my original mulch;thor team;
cleared fitz, meta'd thor, meta'd chip, re-read both of them and concluded that chip is more likely scum based off interactions with scum players + pushes + other posts + how chip plays as town. he has to recent games as town where he is much different and better than what he displayed here.
let's say I am an unstable mess of a person, which I am. I'm a cokehead who works 12+ hours everyday and feels good about it. who is more likely to catch scum this gameday? the one who caught mulch, skitter, cleared a bunch of town players and was never on a mislynch? or chip butty?- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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you didn't understand my point. I'm asking the other 3 players to sheep me this time based off me being very right about many things in this game, as opposed to you who pretty much exclusively pushed town apart from being on and off skitter on d2. logically, it makes more sense to follow me onto you than to follow you onto me.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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some random thoughts that may or may not help your f3 decision in case I get lynched:
another reason for clearing fitz, is that skitter was not only townreading misere but pushing both mulch and myself when we pushed her. this is very typical 'scum pushing other players for scumreading town slots behaviour', and I have a hard time imagining she is doing that sort of stuff scumming together with misere. POSSIBLE, but unlikely.
there's a point in d2 where I actually caught chip butty TMI spewing mulch as a fruit vendor. just go back and read that shit yourself by ISOing chip and typing 'fruit' in search. I think that interaction is important, although at the time I eventually thought chip and mulch couldn't be scum together.
I couldn't clear thor or even find him townie mostly, and what's especially scummy about him is how he went from saying there was 'definitely' scum in the non-PR players in f9 as a way to actually protect mulch, to shading me this gameday and calling me scum if fitz isn't, when if I'm scum then there was definitely NOT scum in the non-PR players. that would mean, one way or the other, that thor 100% pushed mislynches all game until finally scumreading me on f3.
I kinda like that he started scumreading fitz when me and sergtacos were voting him, as it could lead to him being lynched quicker.
----------------------------------------
I do change my mind a lot about stuff, and especially being a long game I'd often forget interactions etc. on d2 I flopped a lot because I tried to come up with an entire scum team based off scummyness + interactions cause I wanted to solve before getting NKed or lynched, and that's not an easy thing to do.
I don't know who the last scum is. gun to my head, chip. could be thor. fitz' posts are pretty bad but I think he is spewed clear anyway. tacos is probably never wolfing with mulch the way he pushed him. very natural organic stuff.
scum wants to lynch me this gameday. I pressed chip onto it, so it's NAI that he voted me. if thor does it, I'd put his wolf equity higher than chip and he should be lynched f3.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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interesting thing about thor's position right now is that his only remaining equity if he is scum is by getting me lynched. I'm not saying he is 100% scum if he does, but if he is scum, he'll lynch me ahead of chip butty because he always loses every f3 scenario if chip gets lynched.
^for your f3 considerations- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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thor. if thor votes me, read his f9 reasoning for not lynching mulch. it's a lot of 'there might be scum in the PRs but there's certainly scum in the non-PRs' talk, that he used then as a way to convince me or at least explain why he wouldn't vote mulch that gameday. come the following gameday, he refuses to acknowledge that mulch sending fruit to -HEM THE FUCKING NIGHTKILL- was outing of him, and wanted another mislynch (you) instead, while now agreeing there should be scum in the PRs. come this gameday, scum PR already flipped, and he refuses to acknowledge that I'm clear, which means his f9 reasoning for never lynching mulch was 100% bullshit.In post 3517, Sergtacos wrote:Lets say Thor, Chip and either me or Fitz are alive in f3, who should we vote?
^ that goes harder against him than anything chip butty did if he votes me now.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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worse for thor, is that if thor is scum and actually votes chip butty, he'll have a big problem in f3 because he needs to keep me alive for a chance, but I'll have a track and a lock to go with it. I'll sit down with fitz (assuming you're getting NKed ofc) and bruce force reasoning into his brain for two weeks, because - and I said this already - I am actually mechanically clear.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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in a world where you're the last scum, I'm sure I could convince either tacos or fitz to vote you with me at f3. I can reasonably convince someone that a game with two scum PRs vs two town PRs + a miller doesn't exist in MS, as it would be considered too scum sided;heavily unbalanced. I can spend a week collecting examples for this certainly.In post 3528, Thor665 wrote: That's a joke and not even remotely true.
Besides, my win ratio in lylo is massive on average and I see nothing to change it here. If I'm scum you're a top scumspect - think about that and consider what you've done this game if you're town, and then you're going to tell me I'd have problems in lylo?
if I'm being scumread, is because town sucks. not really my fault or your merits if you're scum. fitz didn't read the game properly and chip simply despises me, there's nothing I can do about either.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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don't you always fail hard and lose as a villager? at least recently? why would you have any confidence at all in yourself here? especially in this game where you hard defended scum and pushed town -all game- basicallyIn post 3544, Chip Butty wrote:Prodge: Happy with my vote where it is. Locked in, work around it. Is Taco still pocketed?- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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no it's very scummy from me evenIn post 3546, havingfitz wrote:
It was a bit towny other than the fact it is on town. You joining it is not however.In post 3542, Toranaga wrote:wow that's a towny vote
Thor...I'm town. Switch to Tor.
Taco...I'm town. Don't mindlessly sheep Tor.
like when I outed mulch, that was scummy too
like when I didn't lynch porkens or maria and townread both slots
like when I hammered skitter and dared mulch to vote her
all scummy actions from one scummy toranaga- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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sure let's yolo
cause
IDK man, I'm starting to townread both chip and thor for their actions at f3. I self voted and asked chip to hammer me, he didn't. then when I moved to vote him and he voted me, that pissy attitude was so... IDK, he is definitely not faking hatred. what you have going for yourself aren't your posts very much, but the fact that mulch hard pushed you in a spot where he should not have done it. and skitter townreading you at the same time. IDK, it's weird. but your posts are not good this gameday, that I'll agree with thor. and I do agree with thor having me and him as top scumreads is... odd. and IDK, he could have hammered me just now. why the fuck didn't he. hammer me, NK you, f3 is tough. but vote the guy that could hammer him and ask to get hammered, ugh. don't wanna lynch that lol.
maybe exploitable on my part but eh.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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I've set myself up to get lynched at least 3 times in this f5
chip butty kinda did as well
thor did as well
fitz' reads are pretty static. he appeared with a thor;tor as possible scum and I'm sure he didn't read the thread to any reasonable extent to be completely relaxed with the other two. IDK what mulch was doing at f9 if fitz is scum, but as far as f5 goes the one player who is posting in a way I associate more with scum is fitz.
I really don't know who the last scum player is but people have been doing shit here that I gutread as townie, apart from fitz. terrible yolo lynch? probably... unless he flips scum!- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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In post 667, Mulch wrote:I have a strong suspicion that Miseré is trying to pocket me because they are coming in with my exact reads and heavily praising my game. And some of the thoughts are shallow, like liking my analysis. It's easy to say I have good analysis with a big post but if they were going to lock me town on this I would have expected to see examples. It's a big claim to make at that stage in the game. What's also weird is that it's sort of like they "decided" I was town on that and then immediately began glorifying all my other posts in that set of pages.
I feel like there is a decent chance this is scum with TMI. I also notice that a lot of their posts have pretty obvious thoughts, like pointing out fluff or agreeing with posts people make, and it dosen't really show an effort to analyze or solve. Lot's of "observations", objective facts, and mindmelds.
anyone else see the similarities here? those are the only posts mulch made on players that are full commentary mode without quoting anything and they're structured very similarly.In post 672, Mulch wrote:I really like Skitter's recent posts. They came into the game and started scumreading people that hadn't voted them yet or were not voting them, which would mean that if they are scum they are taking the risk of them voting them for a bullshit read. It was daring and showed a lack of caring about how they are perceived. I think the fact they had the awareness to point out Tort scumreading Misere after previously calling them town showed they were really trying to analyze the gamestate (and I still need an explanation for that). Their aggresive and confident and not overly defesive to anyone except Thor which I can understand cause they're tunneling them conf-bias style based on one post. I could follow their reasoning on all of their points although not particularly in depth, and especially liked how they were scumreading the putting Havo into a team after the unvote (something I completely missed). I also like their tone.
I don't want to lynch Skitter today. I think there is a decent chance that wolves are jumping on town!thor confbiasing them, specifically MariaR who really bothered me by just making a post about catching up but still is just floating by letting their non-extremely serious vote on Skitter stand. I've found that people who leave votes on for extended periods of time have a higher chance of being wolf in general.
a pattern maybe?- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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that F3 'wifom' argument is pretty terrible
the only difference between me at f3 and anyone else at f3 is that, if I'm the town tracker, I can increase the town chance of winning to 50% as long as I don't track the NK
if I'm a wolf I might still play into that and and the remaining villager still has a 50% shot
me getting lynched now is terrible and 'wifom' doesn't work as a reason to do it
your other 'non-yolo' reasons are all meh- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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if I'm tracker, I have 66% chance of getting my vote 100% right
if I'm not tracker, I might wanna fake that anyway
that isn't the same as 3 players in a f3 where town can vote town first. at any f3, as long as I have my track, or fake that I do, I vote first.
odds of town winning skyrocket.
also 'since the first two scum died'... the second scum died last gameday and I may have said 100 times already that I don't know who the other one is.
you pushing a lot of stupid shit is making me feel good about my vote though.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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@chip butty
if you're town, can you at least once not be the honorary scum player? stop voting me for petty shit. yes we don't like each other, I think you're a retard and you think I'm a loser. just get over with that bullshit already and play well instead. game isn't personal. stop being a fucking tool and do the right thing for once.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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eh I'm just playing the game like normal
solving is all I'm doing, I'm not screaming to anyone not to get me lynched or whatever. I put myself in L-1 and asked you to lynch me when my mind wasn't into it even. IDK how you're reading me doing a colossal effort to not get lynched...
it's frustrating not to be able to figure this out but as far as f5 behaviour goes, I am more suspicious of fitz than anyone else. as far as self preservation he is the one doing the most of it + once I voted him I think he got really scummy.
you do you sure, but if you're town you're failing hard and you're really bad at reading motivations.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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in my last -version- of who the last scum player is, I really do think it's havingfitz. this is the case against him. making it short, comprehensive and to the point.
1) misère was a scummy slot
misère made 5 posts on d1. most of them are well crafted, logic heavy, mostly NAI posts. Superficially, there are two major traits in misère's posting that when combined, are scum indicative: herlow postcountand herlogic-heavy walls of text. Misère was the only slot in d1 that did not interact with anyone. She appeared, made her reads and left. While low participation isn't always a scum tell, the fact that all of her posts were hard crafted on top of it is. for a slot as UTR as misère was, I see this asfake work. Trying to appear towny by pretending to solve the game when her actual interest in doing so was quite low.
Looking into her posting, there is suspicious alignment-indicative behaviour. For brevity purpose, I'll go over the strongest one.
the mariaR vote:
In post 787, Misère wrote:Belated prodge.
I'll be busy this weekend but I'll try to find time to continue catching up.
MariaR had 4 votes on her at the time. it takes 7 to lynch on d1. Misère comes in the thread having made only 3 posts in the entire gameday and not posting for 2 days, leaves a vote on her and leaves.In post 788, Misère wrote:Actually, I like the Maria wagon (though I wouldn't mind a Serg wagon either).
VOTE: MariaR
Thetimingis scummy: the scum motivation is clear as the vote helps getting town lynched; the slot wasn't here for 2 entire days before that vote and didn't show up anymore, neither did misère show any signs of trying to determine alignments.
Thephrasingis scummy. "Actually, I like the Maria wagon" reads insincere. "Actually" isn't referring to anything new, contradictory or unexpected from misère, so it doesn't belong in the phrase. "I wouldn't mind a Serg wagon either" is a very self aware comment as she was pushing tacos hard and is now voting someone that isn't tacos.
next post I'm briefly analysing fitz' play this game, and then I'll finish with spew from scum.- Toranaga
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Toranaga Jack of All Trades
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2) havingfitz is scummy
Superficially, there's nothing too bad about fitz. he is interacting and doing work. The biggest problems I have are his interactions with mulch on f9, playing it safe throughout the game and how his reads (did not) develop at f5. you guys are reading his f5 posts so I won't bother with it, and 'playing it safe' is easy to draw by reading what and who he is pushing. so the important stuff:
the f9 mulch interactions
Part of it I'd leave to the scum spew, but this is important: The most bollock mulch push this entire game was scum reading fitz for not unvoting porkens, other than a push mulch made on d1 against misère. I believe the weakness of the push is more indicative of scum hard distancing than scum pushing for a mislynch.
The push: Porkens says that fitz replaced d1 and wanted to live through the night. This did not happen. Fitz calls it a "lie and a fabrication" and votes Porkens. Porkens retracts in the next post, saying "hm, I misread", and unvotes Fitz. Fitz posts once more and in comes Mulch:
the argument goes on in that page.In post 2531, Toranaga wrote:
feels like a bad reason to push someone when they made one post after voting porkens lolIn post 2530, Mulch wrote:Why are you still voting Porkens over the lie if they retracted it and said they made a mistake? Do you think they would be more likely to make this mistake as scum because they have an opportunistic mindset, or what's the deal?
I don't love their other interactions either, and seem really fake from both sides. Like when mulch goes "Man I would be salty if the misere slot is town." and fitz replies "Hello salty." or when fitz, in his third post no less, responds to HEM scumreading him with "Did you attend the Mulch school of scumhunting?".
More importantly: Fitz is hard scumreading Mulch from the very beginning of f9, going as far as saying "More votes for crap case scum fruit vendor please" early-ish into it. at some point in f9 unvotes Mulch, and the reasoning is odd:
where did fitz take that scum would have 2 PRs? skitter was goon.In post 2726, havingfitz wrote: Point is...I have my doubts on the Toranga slot but I feel that will sort itself out tonight. I believe Mulch is a Fruit Vendor so the only thing is his alignment. As much as I hate to say it...I don't scum having two PRs against a gunsmith/cop/and tracker and have one of those PR's be a fruit vendor.
UNVOTE: pfffffffft
why wouldn't scum have 2 PRs and one be a fruit vendor?
why does he 'hate to say it'?
the whole thing here is odd and feels disingenuous. - Toranaga
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