Smith inserts commentary becaues what else is new
In post 2509, mastina wrote: In post 2505, Toranaga wrote:jailkeeper can be conf town and implicate scum
watcher can be conf town and implicate scum
Both of these are wrong.
Jailkeeper is not a role which is ever conftown this game--least of all, because of the commuter. The commuter introduces the level of doubt as to the source of any failed nightkill. Furthermore, the jailkeeper can falsely clear scum or falsely be framed as scum via the strongman.
Yeah the strongman is a substantial nerf to the jailkeeper
Watcher might implicate scum, but the most obvious choice it fails on (no watching the innocent child), and it is also not a role immune to being thought of as scum.
Agreed. Here it's materially worse than, say, a cop. And ascetic IC claims are kind of unusual IMO? Maybe the IC claims ascetic and not IC or something early?
commuter and JK can negate the wolves NK...
Exactly! There is an ambiguity involved. That's a NERF, not a boost. There's a reason that jailkeeper-bulletproof is one of the worse newbie setups. Newbies simply have no clue what the source of the failed kill is and thus no idea what to make of it. Same principle.
Disagree. The more potential sources for a stopped kill, the better. It's less important that kills be stopped than that there be additional avenues to stop kills. THAT SAID, this along with a gated vig introduces a shit-ton of wackiness at night. Unless the scum kill is stopped and a wolf dies at night, of course
Also in newbies, jk/bp/rb has high scum win rate because roleblocker kicks the crap out of jailkeeper, and because a jailkeeper flip can implicate a bp claim should said claim happen late (that's one of the reasons early BP claiming was popuarized in the first place). jk/bp/rb is SUPER dependent on the roleblocker dying early, and town more or less doesn't get shit in terms of power utility before that happens. In a micro, Jailkeeper is very strong against goons, very weak against a roleblocker.
inno child, jailkeeper and watcher are not roles that are supposed to endgame as town and wolves need to get rid of the last 2 100%
The innocent child could be killed without consequence at any time. No watch. No track. No jailkeep. No nothing. The ascetic was there for good reason. Jailkeeper is a role which is only conditionally powerful, in particular, if there's only one scum left. Before then, it is virtually worthless because its ability to stop death is incredibly limited (especially with the strongman).
Agreed on jailkeeper nerf
The one and only role which did have that need for death would be the watcher. The watcher was the strongest town role in this game, hands down, no questions asked...yet it was just about the ONLY significantly strong role town could make great use of. Again, role synergy or rather the lack thereof is a thing. Innocent child is strong on its own. Vig is strong on its own. Jailkeeper can be strong on its own. Watcher is strong on its own. Commuter is
okay
but not really strong. But with all the gates on them, and put together. You're left with a town where they don't have good odds of actually producing useful information. The jailkeeper is likely to be borderline negative utility for the town (blocking key town roles from performing actions, not stopping scum). The vig is disproportionately likely to hit town. The IC is likely to get promptly killed off, and if they fail to claim the ascetic, likely cause town to waste a jailkeep and/or watch attempting to save someone who can't be saved.
I think I largely agree
And so on and so forth.
all mafia had was checking TWICE if a player was a PR (which ofc can give mafia a nice little claim to go deep) and a non consecutive strongman to counter jailkeeper.
"All mafia had was this role which was a ridiculously good safeclaim yet which gave them info they desperately needed plus a role which shut down one of the roles I am griping about". Yeah seems about right!
town had 6 power roles (!) with 4 possibly or always conf town themselves in a 13er.
Not six. Five. Neighborizer is considered net-zero, net-null, absolutely worthless zero value for town. It is not factored into balance at all.
ehhh... neighbor is a zero on the utility scale. neighborizer is something that can be tracked and verified, and is SLIIIIIIIGHTLY more powerful than zero, if nothing else to prove that it exists, to verify jailkeeper (for blocking), watcher (for results), etc
I think even as a poor PR role, I might take issue with that. OTOH I generally take issue with >5 PRs in a 10/3 mini normal game so *shrugs*
And scum had two decent/strong PRs of their own.
Strongman is the strongest scum role in existence, possible exception roleblocker but even then strongman likely wins out in terms of disproportionately damaging the town.
Neapolitan is effectively a rolecop, except one which was designed to mirror town roles (town roles were 2x this game, so too was the neapolitan to match the town roles) and give scum a safeclaim which fit well within the setup. (Because town lacked any real investigative power, a neapolitan would make sense as town because neapolitans are cop-lites.)
Two scum power roles.
Versus effectively five town power roles.
Six town PRs but yeah
Given that normal balance standards for a 10-3 game would be 7-3-3 (or 6-4-3) VT-PR-scum, this is right in the zone.
Add two extra town roles, and you add in two scum roles. Equivalent exchange.
Is it how I would design a game, no. Is that level of swing in a game something I would prefer, also no. But it is definitively still
balanced
, because scum and town have equal odds at winning.
I'd lean a bit on it being townsided compared to standard, but I wouldn't say it's out of the reasonable range for mini normals.
And wolves usually win 10/3 mini normals anyway so *shrugs*
I'd probably have fought the setup in review and then grudgingly accepted it or somethign close to it, while probably bitching all the way about having six town PRs
