Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: IceGuy

He ain't no Mr nice guy.

[Luca Blight]

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

Welp Your dead tonight

good job assuming theres no jk
this might be a slip but not rlly

Have you ever played this Setup?

I've never played this setup before but I get the feeling that anyone who was a jailkeeper wouldn't tend to make a joke about there being the death of an individual at night when they are able to stop it. Personally, if Elmo ever role claims as the jk in this game I'm likely not going to believe it :3

This observation might have been useful after such a roleclaim, but is now useless.

[Luca Blight]

I don't think IceGuy is bad tbh. Looking at his posts so far, we have an RVS post, one that is advising someone else to NOT get the mod to confirm their IC role (a good idea tbh, since that would make the IC an easy target for maf) and one (which I agree with) saying that others are basically using 2 posts for their reads, neither of which are scum-posts.

I don't know if Transcend has been IC before, but it is possible that IceGuy was telling him just in case, lots of posts does not equal experience as roles such as IC, not voting for them yet because of the IC claim, it might be accurate, then again, I have never been in a game with that role before so idk.

I don't have any other reads right now, so I am going to

UNVOTE:
for now.

I don't see how this post does anything to move the game forward.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Kelbris

[Luca Blight]

I think I'm someone that will always be bothered by naked unvotes

Why is a naked unvote worse than a naked vote?

[Luca Blight]

Speaking of question dodging, you didn't answer mine in 56.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mutant

He says we should lynch whoever seems least useful at the end of a long pointless early reads list which seems designed to

look

useful.

Not only does this seem contrived, it's also a terrible strategy - scum have more motivation than Town to look as though they are useful for their very survival is of most importance to them.

[Luca Blight]

Speaking of dumb questions....65.

[Luca Blight]

But you don't even deny that your question was a dumb one so lol

How is it dumb exactly?

[Luca Blight]

I think I'm someone that will always be bothered by naked votes

[Luca Blight]

I won't just deal with it, I'll

transcend

it.

[Luca Blight]

Town reads so far:

Kelbris

, Transcend, Mutant
I want to say Ectomancer too but there’s a little more doubt there.

I’m also very torn on IceGuy right now.

I'm skeptical as to this Townread of Kelbris here.

Spoiler: Let's take a look at his posts

Hello everyone, let's have a great game.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep
everyone has their own way of saying hello, maybe dave's a Fat Albert fan.

I don't think IceGuy is bad tbh. Looking at his posts so far, we have an RVS post, one that is advising someone else to NOT get the mod to confirm their IC role (a good idea tbh, since that would make the IC an easy target for maf) and one (which I agree with) saying that others are basically using 2 posts for their reads, neither of which are scum-posts.

I don't know if Transcend has been IC before, but it is possible that IceGuy was telling him just in case, lots of posts does not equal experience as roles such as IC, not voting for them yet because of the IC claim, it might be accurate, then again, I have never been in a game with that role before so idk.

I don't have any other reads right now, so I am going to

UNVOTE:
for now.

I was voicing my opinion on the 2 main wagons in the game. People were voting Transcend because of his "IC" claim, and voting IceGuy because of his advice to not get the mod to reveal. So far, the only one I have any suspicion on is havingfitz because of his suggestion that Transcend should get the mod to confirm the IC claim D1, something which I believe does nothing but put a big target on the IC's back (unless there is a JK, but we don't know what the maf chose).

Post #1 - Rvs; NAI.

Post #2 - what I would call an unproductive post - it's early in the game and 'pressure' on the likes of Transcend and IceGuy is designed to create content. Defending IceGuy here does nothing but put a halt to that momentum, leaving the game back where it started; with nothing. I'm even more skeptical after Deas' point (which I agree with) in 39 where he acknowledges that such exaggeration of early posts in and around RVS is sometimes required - why then does he like this post by Kelbris?

Post #3 - Kelbris explains his #2 post. His point against Fitz is fair enough, but then why not mention it in post #2 and why not place a vote on Fitz/follow up his suspicion with questioning?

So if Deas could explain this one, that would be great.

[Luca Blight]

The 'very torn' comment on IceGuy seems forced to me as well.

There hasn't been enough content from IceGuy to justify a 'very torn' position - it's like Deas thinks he has to say something about IceGuy as he is the topic of discussion, so just makes something up.

[Luca Blight]

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

[Luca Blight]

And this one:

The mod cannot confirm me as innocent chile

I assumed a mispell...not lame humor.

Shame....you're one it would be nice to have confirmed.

VOTE: Transcend

You call it a 'shame' he's not genuinely claiming IC, but then later are annoyed that an IC could have potentially been outed:

Regardless...pretty clear there will be an IC in this game which makes Transcend's lol claim all the more annoying. Would have sucked if Transcend is town and his humor caused the real ~IC to claim. As it is...I think the ~IC should wait until he/she is on the verge of being lynched...if that ever happens. Same obviously for the other 2 PRs.

[Luca Blight]

With regards to Fishy, his point against IceGuy here is completely null:

Not sold on the Transcend wagon. I think blatant rolefishing is one of those "scumtells" that scum don't actually do.

IceGuy is a bit more convincing, because of what Ectomancer said here:

I asked myself why Iceguy would state the super obvious to Transcend to not ask the mod to confirm the role claimed. Iceguy has been around, but Transcend has literally 10x the number of posts of either one of us. So I'm slapping Iceguy with an "I'm a super helpful townie" scum tell violation.

Also, IceGuy's random vote goes out of it's way to tell you it's random (saying the reason if OMGUS). Making sure you don't provoke any actual conflict seems more likely to come from scum.

The amount of times I've seen someone use 'OMGUS' as the reason for an RVS vote is innumerable. As someone who has been here since 2008, he must surely have seen the same types of RVS posts coming from both alignments? As for the 'super helpful townie' thing - that could be a valid point, but not a very strong one as I could easily see a Townie making the same point.

Are people seriously basing a scumread on two posts, one of which is RVS?

Yes.

Then why aren't you voting IceGuy?

It seems pretty usual to me that people exaggerate the significance of their thoughts early game in order to actually have something to talk about. Is that your experience too?

Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum.

What makes you think that? I'd say moving from Transcend to you looks more like someone trying to find scum;

someone who doesn't care who they lynch has no reason to hop..

This is an incredibly simplistic view and devoid of context.

Is Fishy really implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop?

[Luca Blight]

Other things I don't like about Fitz' 31 post:

Slow day.

Not fond of RVS but typically throw a vote out anyway.

Hence the DeasVail vote.

Also not fond of people doing shit that could potentially result in town PRs being outed. Ex...claiming something that resembles an actual town PR like "Innocent Chile" smh....

Hence the Transcend vote.

First of, why explain an RVS vote?

Second, was he actually scumreading Transcend for this, or did Fitz just vote him because he was made to look a bit silly (and possibly scummy)?

Not solid on my Transcend vote...if he was going to screw around as scum and try to lol out someone I would think he'd try for a non-IC pr...which scum would know who was in play. i.e. I doubt my vote stays there long.

He is so uncommitted to his Transcend vote, why bother even keeping it at this stage? I don't like this because it looks like he's making an excuse for an unvote but feels a bit self-conscious about doing it right away.

If he doesn't like where his vote is, why isn't he striving to find a better place for his vote? 31 is a long post, but it's all setup spec and making excuses; there is not a hint of scumhunting.

UNVOTE:

Then, 12 posts later he nakedly unvotes.

What compelled him to unvote here?

Speaking of votes, I like mine better here right now.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Fitz

[Luca Blight]

When you say "devoid of context" - do you think there's more context I should have added?

Devoid of context because you were making a general statement that didn't take into account the current state of play - the fact the game is still in its infancy which means wagon switches bear less significance.

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

Fair enough.

IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.

Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for '

finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum

', or could a Townie also do such?

[Luca Blight]

@Mutant

- my point (and reason for voting you) wasn't so much the fact you were looking helpful, but the fact you concluded that helpful-looking post by saying we should lynch whoever is least useful. You can see how this seems a little contrived?

And yes, scum do try to look useful - because by not being so they will be suspected. The key word here is try: as Town you are naturally curious and motivated to find out who the scum are, but as scum this has to be faked to some degree.

To be fair your tone reads pretty Town which is one of the reasons I switched my vote, but I don't think your post was useful - what has it achieved exactly?

[Luca Blight]

I don't feel like individually addressing mutant and Luca's suspicions towards me point by point but since they seem to be along the same lines I will say this:

- imo it's not the worst thing in the world for an IC to claim right out of the gates. I kind of lump them with millers in that regard. So Transcend's claim, if true, wasn't horrible.
- if I were an IC I would not claim until I was on the verge of being mislynched.
- if an IC did see the need to claim...I would expect them to have the mod confirm the claim.
- I really dislike when town (assuming Transcend is town) claims a PR that they are not.
- anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.

If it's not so bad for an IC to claim straight away, why were you so annoyed Transcend might have caused a potential real IC to claim?

The rest is just repetition of what you've already said.

- Transcend, in my estimation, is a bit of a wildcard and sometimes does things I might not necessarily say or due...so when he mentioned the mod had referred to the role as innocent chile (which I had not recalled) I could absolutely see a joke claim coming from town Transcend. Hence the unvote.
- My current read on Transcend is a town lean. His Innocent Chile lol claim could have been from either alignment so I'm just going to ignore it.

So why the hell did you vote Transcend?

- I think Luca's push/vote on me is weak and I was considering a vote on himn...but I'm not sure I like the consistency of his wagon so I'm not going to vote him at this time.

I want to look over a few players who have my attention before deciding where to vote.

Consistency of my wagon? What are you talking about?

I gave multiple reasons I don't like your play so far and you've ignored pretty much all of it, so it's a bit 'weak' of you to call my push weak.

[Luca Blight]

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.

I agree as a general point, but so early in the game?

Obviously Mafia are very likely to look into previous setups as they choose the powers, but as a Townie myself it didn't even cross my mind to check, and nor would it until something of relevance to the setup occurred.

Perhaps that's just me though.

[Luca Blight]

Just to be clear, I want Fitz to answer the following

:

With regards to looking so thoroughly into the setup so early on, do you have any meta that shows this is something you do as Town?

You don't think Transcend's fake claim was AI indicative and are in fact townreading him, so why would you vote him?

What compelled you to unvote in 43? I don't want a general reason, I want to know why specifically you unvoted here and not in your previous 31?

What do you mean by the '

consistency of my wagon

', and why is that a reason to not vote me?

Other general points that aren't necessarily questions:

I don't like how you had time to make a long post on setup spec and excuse making but did not interact with anyone or show any hint that you're trying to find scum.

I don't like how self-concious you seem - you feel the need to explain your RVS vote even though no-one mentioned it, you felt the need to explain your Transcend vote and your position on Transcend so everyone knows you might unvote soon. You were worried your 31 might be perceived as rolefishing.

I don't like your conflicted view of being annoyed that the IC might be drawn out while also saying an early IC claim isn't bad. Also how you said it's a 'shame' Transcend's claim wasn't real - it doesn't match up, and makes your subsequent claim of 'annoyance' seem fake.

I don't like how you say you were thinking of voting me but then don't vote me - what is the purpose of this exactly? A veiled threat to say 'if you keep this up I will vote you?' A way of throwing a bit of shade while avoiding direct conflict?

[Luca Blight]

Kelbris

, can you walk me through how 109 changed your view of Fitz from 'clear scumread' to 'neutral'?

[Luca Blight]

Regarding Ecto, I'm not sure I see that push on IceGuy as being scummy in itself - it was RVS and he was getting the ball rolling, which is more of a Townie thing to do in my opinion.

I often like to play similarly myself - jump on someone early doors to get the game out of RVS.

[Luca Blight]

@Fitz

1. If you remember then please share.

2&3. So you unvoted because Transcend said it was a joke in 37? The problem I have with this is that you already acknowledged it was a joke in 19...the same post you originally voted him.

4&9. Why would whoever is on my wagon affect whether you vote me, especially given you've already said you have no clear reads? And you haven't taken into account that at least two of the votes on my wagon weren't serious, and the other (LUV) has replaced out.

5. Fair enough I guess, but you haven't actually observed anything related to what's been posted so far.

6. You expected what?

7. Again, your apparent annoyance of a real IC being potentially drawn out doesn't quite match your regret that the IC claim wasn't real. My problem is that your annoyance doesn't seem genuine - you weren't annoyed when you thought the claim was genuine, you weren't annoyed immediately after; your annoyance seemed fabricated. This is probably something that can't be proven nor disproven, but it's just something I picked up.

[Luca Blight]

EBWOP: 4&8 instead of 4&9.

[Luca Blight]

^That's actually a good point on Elmo ^

Furthermore, he avoided answering IceGuy's question regarding this in 116

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Elmo

[Luca Blight]

There was also something about her opening post that pinged me as well:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

Welp Your dead tonight

VOTE: Dead I mean Deas
Long time

Like Sheep mentioned after, it's as if she has knowledge of the selected PR's to say that the IC claim would be killed tonight.

[Luca Blight]

2&3 - I have explained in detail, and more than once iirc, why I voted Transcend and why I unvoted him.

Again, you are answering a specific point generally. Your previous answers do not answer this point.

4&8 - I never said I "have no clear reads." Don't attribute what you think to what I say. When I made the comment the votes were still on you...when they got there was not a factor in my apprehension.

Until your vote on Mutant just now you hadn't taken a stance on anything so far, which kind of implies such...

5 - You don't know what I have or haven't observed.

Go on then - show me what you've observed that's related to what's been posted so far.

Transcend indicates the mod cannot confirm what I was perceiving as an IC claim. This is annoying as shit to me because (as I have pointed out)...anything a townie does that has the potential to cause a town PR to unnecessarily out them self I view as bad. So Transcend is either scum fcuking around that can't confirm their claim or bad town. Either of which is worthy of my vote imo.

So you're annoyed because he was joking around which could have lead to a real IC claim....

Transcend points out the mod had referred to IC as Innocent Chile...which I had read but had not recalled...and then his lol claim made more sense to me. I could see Transcend having some fun with the mod's wording. Hence the unvote. No annoyance at this point.

....but are then no longer annoyed because Transcend explained his joke which could have lead to a real IC claim.... right.

[Luca Blight]

I'm all the more interested to hear Fitz' observations given he only seems to post about things that are directly related to him.

[Luca Blight]

Luca right after with the insa vote bandwagon.

Err, are you accusing me of something here?

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

Note the opportunistic vote

Right now Im comfoy where my vote lies. Transcend can get lynched. You all wanted me to vote and do XYZ Ill be honest. Ive been on vacation as of late.

Why is this an opportunistic vote but Yuria's vote in 155 isn't?

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

Personally I found it to be fluff at best. Im going to contradict myself here I'm completely aware of this.

Did you think Mutant's reads list was NAI at the time you made the vote, or after he provided meta for himself doing this as both alignments?

Is '

fluff

' something that is alignment-indicative for you?

[Luca Blight]

This makes no sense - you say Yuria's vote wasn't opportunistic because she wanted you to answer questions, when that's basically a repeat of what my vote was - which you say is opportunistic?

[Luca Blight]

What circumstances?

[Luca Blight]

It might be worth noting that Elmo has been online since being put on L-1.

Normally this isn't the sort of thing I comment on, but given scum have day chat and she has been asked to claim, it could be that she is seeking advice before responding.

[Luca Blight]

to answer the question asked in post #125, havingfitz essentially covered a lot of the reasons I had for suspecting him with some reasonable answers. He makes a very valid point regarding Transcend's initial claim and I agree with him on the fact that Transcend's claim could have caused the real IC to reveal themselves-something which is NOT good for the town (unless there is a JK).

Thanks for answering, but do you have anything relevant to say to the current game state?

[Luca Blight]

Quickhammering is bad. If there's a vig, they should take out anyone who quickhammers a townie.

Wait, didn't you suspect IceGuy for being a 'super helpful Townie'?

[Luca Blight]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

[Luca Blight]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

Funny. You don't seem to be on eggshells.

Probably because I'm Town.

[Luca Blight]

I thought you were making a wall post for a minute there Sheep - I nearly spat my coffee out!

[Luca Blight]

To be fair you did give your own opinions in that post as well.

Only thing I would say is to answer why you say Mutant is Town based on 141?

[Luca Blight]

I know - 'answer why' meaning answer Sheep's query.

[Luca Blight]

Are you still maintaining that IceGuy is scum? To be honest I thought the early wagon was just for pressure purposes and to get the game out of RVS.

His posts since RVS haven't really pinged me at all.

[Luca Blight]

Note - I just finished a game with IceGuy where he was heavily suspected and vig-killed as Town, so maybe I'm just used to his awkward style.

[Luca Blight]

Just to reply to this bit directly:

Do you know why IceGuy is so scummy? Because my vote on him was, I think, the first vote of the game with a real, actual scumtell for a reason.

But instead of addressing that reason he responds with (paraphrase):

"Are you really going to vote me seriously 2 posts into RVS?"

And that was followed by (paraphrase):
"Oh, he isn't serious about scumhunting" (in spite of being the first vote with a real reasoning) "he'll just lynch anybody"

lynch Iceguy

Underlined - To be fair, how is he supposed to respond to being accused of being overly helpful? It's not something he can exactly disprove.

Italics - He didn't say vote, he said scumread - quite a big difference as far as RVS goes.

Bolded - Here you have a point; it was an awkward comment, although I think it refers as much to the Transcend wagoning as much to his own.

[Luca Blight]

Are you still maintaining that IceGuy is scum? To be honest I thought the early wagon was just for pressure purposes and to get the game out of RVS.

His posts since RVS haven't really pinged me at all.

My wall of quotes detailed two instances after I made my accusation against him where he could have directly answered to my reasoning. I felt as though I had given the first vote out of the RVS stage. By definition, that means an actual reason. Specifically, it was the "I'm a helpful townie" tell because it felt forced to me given Transcend's experience and it was a "duh" type of post. If you are town I expect you to tell me why, right? It is a reasonable expectation. But what did he do?

#1 - Question me about whether I am serious after 2 posts in RVS.
#2 - Question whether I am scum hunting at all.

So a simple "you are being too helpful" tell; blew up quickly to a "wow, you've avoided answering to our first serious accusation" twice now.

By the way, the following is just a technical game comment. - Transcend skipped the RVS stage and he was first post. There was no RVS stage this game.

You can't really say there was 'no RVS stage' when myself and others made posts of an entirely RVS nature.

You have a fair point to say IceGuy's start wasn't impressive and was perhaps slightly scummy the way he got defensive so quickly, but am I sold on him being scum? Honestly, no. The last game I played he was Town and he looked scummy as hell right from the get-go. Some players you have to make some allowances for in that respect.

[Luca Blight]

Here is a post of a similar nature from the other game I mentioned:

I really don't like Iceguy's start, his vote for Grapes or his subsequent unvote.

So basically, you've decided that you want to start a wagon on me, and then tried to find reasons for it.

I made a big case on him (which he cut out of the quote) and he completely disregards it and says I'm just trying to find reasons to wagon him which, let's be honest, could be said about any wagon!

[Luca Blight]

Elmo, what circumstances are you referring to in 166?

[Luca Blight]

Deas, you said earlier in the game you were 'very torn' on IceGuy and I see you've now unvoted and excluded him from your lynch pool.

Can you walk me through your read progression of IceGuy so far?

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler: I still don't understand what Elmo is getting at here:

This makes no sense - you say Yuria's vote wasn't opportunistic because she wanted you to answer questions, when that's basically a repeat of what my vote was - which you say is opportunistic?

Im saying I over looked it given the circumstances is all.

What circumstances?

Elmo, what circumstances are you referring to in 166?

Oh posting a recap of my thoughts

And Elmo, if you are Town could you try and step it up a bit? You're giving me absolutely no reason to reconsider my vote on you.

[Luca Blight]

Quickhammering is bad. If there's a vig, they should take out anyone who quickhammers a townie.

Wait, didn't you suspect IceGuy for being a 'super helpful Townie'?

Yes, I did. Saying information-y things that don't actually help the town is very mildly scummy, though it's not a tell I'd bring up past the first few pages. I'm all for information-y things that are actually protown (and I think making potential quickhammers scared of being vigged is actually protown).

IceGuy's 'information-y' thing was also pro-town, and why wouldn't you bring it up past the first few pages? Because it doesn't suit your agenda?

[Luca Blight]

Why's that?

[Luca Blight]

Luca is someone that is very pro-town, but I haven't formed a solid opinion on his actual alignment yet. However, I would be unlikely to lynch him as I feel that his alignment will become obvious with time).

Can you explain why being 'very pro-town' hasn't caused you to townread me? Especially considering you were dishing out town reads willy-nilly earlier on in 59.

[Luca Blight]

Also note that Iceguy has tried to buddy buddy me so far which Im sure everyone has noticed.

Can you explain this one a little more, preferably with an example?

[Luca Blight]

Incidentally, where is Viome?

They replaced in 48 hours ago yet haven't posted so much as a hello.

[Luca Blight]

I am wondering if a Townie would be so reigned to their own lynch as Elmo is here.

It could be unconfident scum - the mindset being '

whatever I post is going to look scummy, I give up

'.

What sort of Townie would just accept they are a 'dead man walking' so early in the day, and use that as a reason for not trying?

[Luca Blight]

Another thing we have to constantly bear in mind here is that scum have day chat - this affects everything.

Could the reason Elmo isn't trying to save her own bacon be because her scum mates are devising a way out without her having to give out too much info?

A scum member who is about to be lynched will be reluctant to give out too much information in case it impacts negatively on their teammates post-flip - Town have no reason to do this.

[Luca Blight]

I think IceGuy made a good point when he said he can't see scum motivation behind Elmo's play, but neither can he see Town motivation.

I'm having the same difficulty.

[Luca Blight]

I have a gut scumread on Kelbris - he's been non-confrontational and barely posting anything relevant to what's actually been going on in the game, until 253 which is a post that pings me a bit:

I would like to know this as well. I am honestly considering voting to get Elmo to L-1, I honestly disagree with his opinion on early game reads. I have seen several games played where scum have been successfully found with reads from within the first 2 pages. I am eager to see if he can convince everyone that he is town, rather then just attacking the wagon.

He said he disagreed on Elmo's early reads, but he hadn't mentioned Elmo at all until this post.

His comment about scum having been found early on in previous games is pointless - just because it happened in previous games doesn't affect the likelihood of Elmo being scum in this one.

And being 'eager to see if she can convince everyone she is town'? That seems like he's looking at the situation from a distance rather than being directly involved in it, as if he were a spectator. Something about the wording of it seems weird to me.

[Luca Blight]

And is there any reason here for him to consider putting Elmo to L-1 without actually doing so?

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

- I believe Viome is due a prod; they haven't made a single post since replacing in and it's been over 48 hours.

[Luca Blight]

Elmo answer my question please.

[Luca Blight]

197 might look like a quality post but it's a 2 liner with messed up formatting
unless our ideas of "quality" differ

The fact Deas didn't realise this suggests he's not following the game as closely as he should....

[Luca Blight]

197 might look like a quality post but it's a 2 liner with messed up formatting
unless our ideas of "quality" differ

The fact Deas didn't realise this suggests he's not following the game as closely as he should....

This is correct, I'm afraid. I will try to do better.

Did you actually read 197 or did you just see a long post and think 'probably town'?

If your talking about ice guy it was how he looked at my wagon.

So IceGuy considering there might be scum on your wagon means he's buddying you?

[Luca Blight]

Elmo, just put him on ignore for a while if it bothers you that much. No need to replace out over something so trivial.

[Luca Blight]

Basically your scumread on IceGuy is based almost entirely on Elmo being scum?

[Luca Blight]

^ So would I, if there wasn't scumchat.

[Luca Blight]

Meh

What's a better flip

Ice or Elmo

I would say Elmo.

IceGuy doesn't really ping me at all to be honest and I think his vote on Kelbris is perfectly reasonable.

If I wasn't voting Elmo right now then my vote would most probably be on Kelbris.

[Luca Blight]

Only problem is if Elmo flips Town we gain absolutely nothing from today: It's such an easy wagon that nothing could be gained from analysing it.

There's also slots like the Viome one that haven't contributed at all today - I would like them to before the day is out otherwise they have just been given a complete free pass for D1.

[Luca Blight]

Deas, what would be your thoughts if Elmo flipped Town?

[Luca Blight]

Just seen Viome is V/LA until December 3rd.....this doesn't bode well.

[Luca Blight]

Viome, are you going to be active enough to actually play the game?

[Luca Blight]

*Viomi - not sure why I thought your name was Viome.

[Luca Blight]

I am afraid I MIGHT be V/LA for the next couple of days, depending on how bad this storm damages the power grid in my area.

really sorry everyone, figured it best to play it safe just in case the power goes out in my area. If nothing happens, the V/LA will be removed later today/tomorrow.

It's Ok, you've been playing as if you were V/LA all game anyway...

Seriously though, hope the storm isn't too bad, stay safe.

[Luca Blight]

I agree with IceGuy's plan here ^

I see no reason not to let the replacement claim as long as we follow the above.

If she claims VT she will be lynched, if she fake-claims a PR then she will eventually be outed as scum anyway.

[Luca Blight]

It's unlikely Elmo is IC as she would have claimed that shit with joy by now. It's unlikely she is vig as she would be holding out hope for putting a bullet in Transcend's head. It's unlikely she is JK because of her first post.

That kind of whittles it down. So yeah, I guess it is unlikely she would be a PR.

[Luca Blight]

^Same. Although I agree with Fishy that the case against her in of itself isn't that strong.

She just hasn't tried to quash my suspicions of her for whatever reason.

[Luca Blight]

But yeah...not sure how many people are gonna want to replace into a L-1 slot.

Maybe give it another day and if no-ones joins, someone hammer.

[Luca Blight]

This game is so boring at the moment.....

As for your second line, so what, I should just accept you're town because your wagon was easy? I probed Elmo but she has given me no reason to even consider unvoting.

I look forward to your explanation for your reads.

[Luca Blight]

I think

I don't like the way

Luca

is playing. I think he's just going along to get a lynch. I know he's first on the wagon on the VC, but he definitely wasn't the first to start circling Elmo, and that's exactly what this has been. Circling. To be more specific, he's playing the way I play when I'm scum. I try to buddy the most aggressive "town" player so they leave me alone, and then I Knit-pick. One can find some little detail wrong with just about anyone. He leaves questions and directions just hanging out there, then he collects on the "so-and-so didn't answer me" or "so-and-so couldn't explain x". He looks kinda like he's scum hunting, but he's just looking for weaknesses. tl;dr:

he's clearly capable of thinking critically about the game state, but he's not doing it.

VOTE: Luca Blight

1) Yeah, as you say I was the first on Elmo's wagon (second if you really want to be pedantic and say Deas thought he was on at the time) so it doesn't hold true that I've been 'going along with the lynch' - by definition I was one of the first to push said lynch. This point is even more strange given there are people on the wagon you genuinely could attribute this accusation to (Kelbris, I'm looking at you) so why you single me out here I don't know.

2) Show me where I have tried to 'buddy' anyone? I've given my own opinions throughout, so I'm literally bemused by this accusation.

3) Err, if someone doesn't answer me what the f*ck am I supposed to do? Just let them get away with it?

4) I've given Elmo every chance in the world to give me reason to unvote, she has failed to do so. My normal scumhunting procedure is to probe around until someone gives me reason to vote them, and then continue voting and pushing them until I have reason not to. I have displayed this already with my voting and unvoting the likes of Fitz and Mutant.

Anyway, despite your terribly misguided points against me at least your slot is now producing something, whereas the Viomi one (while also seemingly useless due to the long-term V/LA) only seems to pop in when she's accused, so this looks a better area to probe for now.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Viomi

[Luca Blight]

ppl can agree with each other that's not necessarily buddying thx

^

This.

And once again, I voted Elmo before Transcend, so surely if anything he was agreeing with me? Also note that Boring had no answer to my other three points.

And instead of telling everyone to look at my ISO which is meaningless, why not draw some examples up yourself so everyone can understand what you're talking about?

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

Aite Elmo can die

!!!!!!!!

I’m on phone and don’t have much time so I’m not going to bother with vote tags, but I would be voting Elmo right now.

The timing of his mutant vote and suspicion is very suspect.

- Mutant gains suspicion for his long reads post
- Suspicion on Mutant is then on the verge of dying down.
- Elmo makes a post pushing the same thing as other people were earlier, Except it’s sort of outdated and Mutant is really looking quite town imo now. THEN there’s the post about it not being because he necessarily thinks the post is from scum which really screams of not committing himself to the stance. If he thinks mutants post was useless but not scum my, why vote for Mutant? Especially considering the issue has already been discussed and he’s already received “pressure” for it, so that can’t be the reason.

Also Ice why are you voting for Luca?

^That's actually a good point on Elmo ^

Furthermore, he avoided answering IceGuy's question regarding this in 116

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Elmo

VOTE: Elmo

There was also something about her opening post that pinged me as well:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

Welp Your dead tonight

VOTE: Dead I mean Deas
Long time

Like Sheep mentioned after, it's as if she has knowledge of the selected PR's to say that the IC claim would be killed tonight.

oops I forgot that I was already voting for Elmo. Well there you go!

And Transcend,

Town reading me makes me think you're informed lol

I would still appreciate an explanation of this.

I didn't address your points because they were non-points. You may have been the first to put a vote on my slot, but two other people called for Elmo's head, Transcend being first. I won't include all of your banter with him because meh. I'm also not posting your whole ISO to break down each post individually because it's time-consuming, and difficult for people to read. It's easier to just skim through it themselves. Besides, I'm not super interested in having a lengthy exchange with you. It just makes the game boring (see what I did there?)

Non-points? They were direct responses to the points you made against me, so I guess that makes your points 'non-points' also?

And how do the quotes you selected show I'm buddying Transcend? Please explain.

Spoiler:

Regardless, you stuck on my slot rather than the hopping you did before, and your reasoning boiled down to, "yeah, this low-poster has delayed timing, lynch her!". Further, my "content" isn't much of a reason to unvote my slot, if you were so convinced. Effort level, especially from players unknown to you, is not something you should judge alignment by. I mean, if anything, my lynch is more useful to town now than before, if you actually believed I was scum.

Yes, as I just mentioned, I kept on your slot because it gave me literally no reason to unvote.

And I find it hilarious how you're calling me scummy for not unvoting your slot, and when I do unvote you make out that's scummy also. I never said I was convinced you were scum - if you would actually read my ISO as you're telling others to you'd see that. I said to Fishy I agreed that the case on Elmo wasn't particularly strong. And I'm not judging your alignment by your content (although I'm getting more suspicious by your non-existent points against me), I unvoted as we now have an active slot whose readability will become clearer, in favour of voting an inactive slot whose readability is currently zero.

[Luca Blight]

^Same. Although I agree with Fishy that the case against her in of itself isn't that strong.

She just hasn't tried to quash my suspicions of her for whatever reason.

Is this the opinion of someone 'convinced' Elmo is scum?

[Luca Blight]

I quoted you not really being the first to vote me

.. and Transcend calling for my head first. You just quotted me saying I wasn't bothering to post all of it.

Why on earth is it a good idea to vote an absentee?

Also, it's not really the votee's primary responsibility to convince others they are town. It's the voter's responsibility to look for scum. I don't know how to explain that better.

You're quoting actions and I'm suggesting intention. I'm not calling you scum for voting me or for unvoting me or for using the word "hilarious" in an irksome way (though, dude..). I am seeing a pattern that indicates a scum motive. I'm asking other to look at my observation, look at your play, and tell me what they think. The fact that no one has yet kind of sucks, but oh well. No one is going to read our long exchanges either. Most players are using their phone, and have short attention spans/limited spare time.

Since no one seems to agree with me, I don't know why you're so terribly bothered. Why not "hunt" Viomi? Whoever currently comes in second for lowest poster?

Underlined

- I already acknowledged that Deas thought he was already on the wagon. Why are you only suspecting me for voting your slot and not the others who followed suit?

Italics

- Viomi isn't an absentee - she just came in to respond to Transcend's suspicion. And if she's going to be this inactive until December 3rd then she really shouldn't be in the game anyway. I don't know how else I'm supposed to get a read on that slot if I don't apply some pressure at least.

Bolded

- perhaps if no-one else is looking for it you should point it out clearly to them? Describe what exactly this scummy pattern is. I just clearly proved your assertion that I'm 'convinced' your slot is scum is false, yet you don't acknowledge that fact.

Blue

- Now you're suggesting I shouldn't even be replying to the points against me? The points you've raised have been utter BS and I've refuted every single one of them, yet you're still voting me? Justify your vote.

[Luca Blight]

Do you still believe I was buddying Transcend? I asked you to prove it and you haven't done so.

[Luca Blight]

First banter

Spoiler:

I think I'm someone that will always be bothered by naked unvotes

Why is a naked unvote worse than a naked vote?

Speaking of dumb questions....65.

But you don't even deny that your question was a dumb one so lol

But you don't even deny that your question was a dumb one so lol

How is it dumb exactly?

VOTE: Luca Blight

I think I'm someone that will always be bothered by naked votes

Deal with it

I won't just deal with it, I'll

transcend

it.

How is banter in any way buddying?

Whiteknighty

Spoiler:

I don't feel like individually addressing mutant and Luca's suspicions towards me point by point but since they seem to be along the same lines I will say this:

- imo it's not the worst thing in the world for an IC to claim right out of the gates. I kind of lump them with millers in that regard. So Transcend's claim, if true, wasn't horrible.
- if I were an IC I would not claim until I was on the verge of being mislynched.
- if an IC did see the need to claim...I would expect them to have the mod confirm the claim.
- I really dislike when town (assuming Transcend is town) claims a PR that they are not.
- anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.

If it's not so bad for an IC to claim straight away, why were you so annoyed Transcend might have caused a potential real IC to claim?

The rest is just repetition of what you've already said.

- Transcend, in my estimation, is a bit of a wildcard and sometimes does things I might not necessarily say or due...so when he mentioned the mod had referred to the role as innocent chile (which I had not recalled) I could absolutely see a joke claim coming from town Transcend. Hence the unvote.
- My current read on Transcend is a town lean. His Innocent Chile lol claim could have been from either alignment so I'm just going to ignore it.

So why the hell did you vote Transcend?

- I think Luca's push/vote on me is weak and I was considering a vote on himn...but I'm not sure I like the consistency of his wagon so I'm not going to vote him at this time.

I want to look over a few players who have my attention before deciding where to vote.

Consistency of my wagon? What are you talking about?

I gave multiple reasons I don't like your play so far and you've ignored pretty much all of it, so it's a bit 'weak' of you to call my push weak.

How is that white-knighting? I was was questioning Fitz' intentions behind his vote given he didn't seem to be scumreading Transcend.

No issue with the naked vote this time?

Spoiler:

VOTE: Elmo

As you mentioned, that was 'banter'...

One of you has to be scum to be feeding off one another like this, and with everything else, I figured you were the most likely. I mean, you can't both be this trusting/naive, right?

Spoiler:

Basically your scumread on IceGuy is based almost entirely on Elmo being scum?

There's actually a world where Elmo can be town if ice is scum

Chainsawing is a thing ykno

Personally if i were scum with Elmo, I'd bus the shit out of her without giving her wiggle room

^ So would I, if there wasn't scumchat.

Meh

What's a better flip

Ice or Elmo

I kinda think you're town at this point so i value your input

Meh

What's a better flip

Ice or Elmo

I would say Elmo.

IceGuy doesn't really ping me at all to be honest and I think his vote on Kelbris is perfectly reasonable.

If I wasn't voting Elmo right now then my vote would most probably be on Kelbris.

Only problem is if Elmo flips Town we gain absolutely nothing from today: It's such an easy wagon that nothing could be gained from analysing it.

There's also slots like the Viome one that haven't contributed at all today - I would like them to before the day is out otherwise they have just been given a complete free pass for D1.

You're correct

But the mutant votes are all terrible

Deas, what would be your thoughts if Elmo flipped Town?

Kill the slot already

It clearly doesn't have a chance in hell at surviving

Just seen Viome is V/LA until December 3rd.....this doesn't bode well.

Yeah that slot can get vigged if it exists lol

It's unlikely Elmo is IC as she would have claimed that shit with joy by now. It's unlikely she is vig as she would be holding out hope for putting a bullet in Transcend's head. It's unlikely she is JK because of her first post.

That kind of whittles it down. So yeah, I guess it is unlikely she would be a PR.

It's unlikely she is vt because she's claimed scum in every post lol

I'm not sure what your point with this is? You're saying it's overly trusting/naive to have interaction with someone in the thread?

Transcend stated he townreads me, and I don't see any particular reason to scumread him at the moment, so I don't see the issue here with basic discussion on lynch candidates or how it's buddying?

Now I'm tired, and going to bed. Vote me you gotta. Fitz and Fish are def. town. Mutant has to be town or really good at playing too-scummy-to-be-scum, in which case, fool me once.... Transcend will lose town the game, regardless of his alignment, if he's going to browbeat every day. Honestly, he may be the best vig target. Yuria could be scum. She's next on my list of players to better review.

Fitz and Fish def town? Don't make me laugh - the only way you could say this with such confidence is if you are scum. Mutant too scummy to be scum? Again you're talking nonsense.

Seeing as you're daring me to vote you, you can have your wish.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Boring

[Luca Blight]

Didin't even realise Viomi was still voting me - is she owning that vote or what?

@Mod

- Viomi is V/LA until December 3rd and I'm concerned her current inactivity might last until then. Can you find out if this is going to be the case as she wouldn't answer my question on the matter.

[Luca Blight]

Viomi's 'location' is scarily accurate....

Just kidding. Thanks for playing but time to move on now.

[Luca Blight]

My tentative townie list:

Ectomancer
IceGuy
DeasVail
Transcend
Fishythefish
mutantdevle

My scummy/null list:

Yuria
Boring
kelbris
sheepsaysmeep
havingfitz
Viome

This is kind of where I'm at right now. I don't have any huge scumreads, but Boring is definitely head and shoulders above everyone else in the bottom list in that respect, due to the others being pretty null for the most part.

I haven't liked anything about Kelbris so far. His is the only vote on the Boring wagon that appears scummy to me, but need to see more of him.

Yuria is possibly the townier side of null, but again I need to see more.

Sheep I have trouble reading this game.

I will try and ISO some people when I wake up and see if anything jumps out.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

[
I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

If you're actually IC, don't do this.

He is quite clearly Inexperience Challenged. Now quit flapping your gums and jump on his wagon.

Why so hasty

There are two wagons today. Transcend and IceGuy and he wouldn't jump on his own wagon right? And I can't get both a Transcend and an Iceguy wagon going by myself, I'm going to need some help. So naturally I am going to petition the guy who wouldn't be on an Iceguy wagon to anchor this Transcend one for me.
We are starting to get some movement on Transcend though, so I am going to:

UNVOTE: Transcend

VOTE: Iceguy

Transcend kicks off the game with the "IC" claim (quoted due to "Chile") and havingfritz decides to cross foils with him. So it begins. I don't know the alignment of these two, but they were creating information and rope by which people might hang themselves.
I asked myself why Iceguy would state the super obvious to Transcend to not ask the mod to confirm the role claimed. Iceguy has been around, but Transcend has literally 10x the number of posts of either one of us. So I'm slapping Iceguy with an "I'm a super helpful townie" scum tell violation.

Ectomancer

looks

town

. The post above is my favorite (try to focus on the motivation behind a post like that rather than the content). The way he cheered on Luca looked very town motivated too. He engaged Elmo productively, or at least tried. He also appears motivated to move the game along.

Why aren't you accusing him of buddying?

[Luca Blight]

Where did I say Transcend was Town?

Boring was scumreading me based on alleged 'buddying' with Transcend - all I did was point out the BS she was spouting.

[Luca Blight]

I don't see Luca as scum. I saw him playing as scum and he played differently, pushing lynches (in that case: me) way harder. I also don't see another reason why he could be scum.

I have a townread on Fish and fitz.

I have a gut feeling that DeasVail is scum.

I want to see more content from kelbris, Yuria and Viomi's replacement.

boring continues Elmo's tradition of not doing anything that seems to have a scum motivation, while also not doing anything that helps town.

Why do you townread Fish and Fitz?

If you feel Deas is scum why not vote him?

I agreed with your point earlier about Elmo lacking both town and scum motivation in her posts, but I don't think you can say the same about Boring; to do so feels like you're choosing to be non-committal on the topical slot of the game. I think there is enough content now from Boring to take a stance one way or the other, so which is it to be?

[Luca Blight]

I should probably work out if boring is scum. I had a weak scumread on Elmo.

In boring's replace-in post:
- She thinks I'm town *must suppress anti-OMGUS*. Her reasoning makes sense - it would be super-easy to have gone along with an Elmo lynch - but I'm not sure why this is applied to fitz and me and not other people off the wagon. Why is that, boring?
- Her reasoning for mutant-town really rings true with me in parts; particularly "He's cumbersome in a way that scum rarely are. As has already been pointed out by two players now, he's trying to policy me, and he doesn't even seem to realize it."
- I don't see her Luca scumread. I think Luca's early game in particular was really solid - asking sensible, scumhunting questions of a few people. I can see how you get to boring's analysis through a bit of an OMGUS lens.
- I disagree with Transcend that these are particularly convenient scumreads. LucaScum is

not

the obvious choice. I think a random set of reads could be spun in much the way Transcend does.

Since then - I don't really see any reason to think boring is scum. It's not an easy slot to replace into, 'cos Transcend (I'm not saying his behaviour shouldn't be allowed, but it doesn't look fun to play against). I think boring is doing as good a job of it as can be expected.

So yeah, let's defy the dog and not lynch this.

Are you townreading Boring based on this, or has she just gone from being a 'weak scumread' to 'null'?

[Luca Blight]

I'm stuck on DeasVail. I'm stuck because of the general impression that he's playing a good scum game. His posts are mild, his targets are easy, and his explanations seem good on the surface.

This post

Spoiler:

Deas, you said earlier in the game you were 'very torn' on IceGuy and I see you've now unvoted and excluded him from your lynch pool.

Can you walk me through your read progression of IceGuy so far?

12: I remember thinking that I might RVS this as it seemed slightly over-explanatory, but overall not that significant.

I became more concerned at 33, as I was pretty sure it was a usual thing for people to exaggerate "scumreads" in early game and so it seemed overly defensive. 48 had a similar vibe, as I didn't get that impression from Ectomancer at all.

However, I then liked his approach to mutant. He expressed suspicion of mutant's reads list but also took initiative in working out whether this was something alignment-indicative for mutant or not (a step beyond the other players in the game from memory)

Since then, I think his approach to the Elmo wagon has been fairly town, as was his suspicion of me followed by unvote.

He is a townread for me at this point in time.

Also, current lynch pool for me (in order of appearance on the playerlist):

Yuria
Fishy
Elmo
kelbris
Viome

Would you mind explaining why those people are in your lynch pool?

Elmo is the only person I explicitly have a scumread on (I am still of this opinion, as well, fwiw).

The other four stand out to me as people that have not made much of an impression. I explicitly do not read them as town, nor do I have another good reason for keeping them around. (E.g. I'm not sure about my read on havingfitz but I have played with him before and expect that I will have a better idea as the game goes on. Luca is someone that is very pro-town, but I haven't formed a solid opinion on his actual alignment yet. However, I would be unlikely to lynch him as I feel that his alignment will become obvious with time).

The lynch pool explanation in particular illustrates my concern. It's an easy pool. It's all people who aren't trying very hard (or are trying, but bad at fitting into the site meta). It's a pool that's pretty easy for most players to swallow too. Even those in it, as he's not actively gunning for any of them.

I would normally agree with such an evaluation, but I feel you're not really factoring in the game-state. No-one this game has looked massively scummy - a lot of players have held back, so I think a list like his is pretty natural given the circumstances.

I babble, and this looks like a babble post I might make, except he's not me. So unless we're soul brothas, I can't assume it was just aimless babble. Only, I can't figure out the aim

Spoiler:

Deas, what would be your thoughts if Elmo flipped Town?

I don’t have time right now to go through things with an Elmo-town mindset (and I tend not to read things with the assumption of a particular alignment until there’s a flip because I’m a slow thinker and also a bit lazy), but I would look at things like how people interacted around the wagon. With an easy mislynch I’d expect scum to feel almost guilty about being associated with it and see if that were betrayed by their posts. I’d also pay attention to more generic things that could be amplified by the situation, such as an increased self-consciousness and care put into how they look with anything Elmo-related. And if someone is avoiding the wagon, why are they avoiding it. Do the reasons feel informed? Are they trying to look town by not mislynching Elmo? It’s difficult speaking in general terms like this without examples, but that’s the best I can do.

I also think it’s very unlikely that Elmo is a town PR and I don’t think kelbris is as likely to be scum.

I picked DaesVail to review after Ecto, because I was expecting him to come out as a town lean. A good scum game looks like this. An okay town game looks like this too. This is completely unhelpful at the moment, I realize, but it may be helpful to someone later. Whether this is a good scum game or a "meh" town game should become more obvious over time.

I don't see what it is exactly you're scumreading here? There's no point quoting something if you're completely unable to explain why you're quoting it.

p-edit: @Fishythefish: I saw just today that Yuria also made a "wait for the replacement" comment, which I hadn't noticed before, but you and Fitz didn't just not vote me. I saw you both discussing my lynch in a way that would make it difficult for you to justify a sudden hammer. That suggests town motivation.

Can you point out exactly what you mean here.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

I probably won’t vote for boring again unless it’s that or a no lynch.

I'm interested to know what changed your mind so profoundly here.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

Can someone explain the boring and kelbris wagons to me?

Boring's predecessor Elmo made a bad vote on Mutant with some very questionable reasoning, followed by unsatisfactory responses to any questions aimed at her before replacing out.

Kelbris has done nothing but coast and play it safe so far, and was the owner of the scummiest looking vote on the Boring wagon, in my opinion.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

Ectomancer

looks

town

. The post above is my favorite (try to focus on the motivation behind a post like that rather than the content). The way he cheered on Luca looked very town motivated too. He engaged Elmo productively, or at least tried. He also appears motivated to move the game along.

I want to reduce

Ectomancer

to

townlean

because I can't think up any town motivation for wanting me -- or anyone -- to claim right now.

- If I'm a PR, that's a bad idea.
- If I'm a VT, it narrows the pool of potential PRs for scum, which is a bad idea.
- If I'm scum, it risks drawing out a PR, which is a bad idea.
- If he thinks I'm scum and he wants to pin me down to claim, then it brings us back to the above-mentioned bad ideas, and begs the question: why not just vote me?

If you can't think up any town motivation behind what he did then how can you be justifying that townlean right now?

Just popped in to say-I do not care for Transcend's "you're a fucking idiot go die" post, nor will I "GTFO". You put up a claim and a lie to try to get people to lynch boring, whom I believe to be town and whom you kept tunneling. I simply did not wish for your lie to go on, even if it meant that I would be under suspicion of being mafia again, I would rather prove my alignment through my own actions rather then letting someone else lie to get the job done.

First post I've liked from Kelbris. Feels pretty genuine.

[Luca Blight]

Actually 572 is pretty decent as well - enough to keep me off Kelbris' wagon for today.

[Luca Blight]

@Mutant

- given Transcend previously claimed Mason and 'innocent chile' this game, I'm not sure why anyone would take his vig claim seriously.

[Luca Blight]

Not sure why I'm still bothering asking Boring questions to be honest; she seems to have given up interacting with anyone in this game.

IceGuy

- Transcend is the most promising wagon that isn't himself? We'll have to disagree there.

[Luca Blight]

I want to note I don't like Deas' vote on Sheep in 554, not because I necessarily think Sheep is Town but because the vote is completely fruitless; it achieves literally nothing, unless he subsequently pushes that lynch which doesn't appear forthcoming.

[Luca Blight]

I really hate playing against scum when they have day chat as it makes association tells very tricky.

I'm starting to get paranoid the recent Kelbris/Transcend thing could have been faked.

[Luca Blight]

^this is stupid on a few levels.

[Luca Blight]

Actually 572 is pretty decent as well - enough to keep me off Kelbris' wagon for today.

How do you come to this conclusion? I feel like he's mostly jumping on the most promising wagon that isn't himself.

Also, Transcend is now firmly in scum camp for #573/#574. I will vote any of {DeasVail, Transcend, kelbris} for today, since deadline is three days away. I will also be open to lynching a lurker (Yuria, sheep, Rem) before a no-lynch happens. I will not vote somebody else.

Deadline is now two days away and there's a promising wagon on one of them.

VOTE: Transcend

IceGuy here is doing the exact thing he accused Kelbris of doing.

[Luca Blight]

You're not exactly fighting her lynch either though, are you?

Why do you think she's Town?

[Luca Blight]

You're not exactly fighting her lynch either though, are you?

What, exactly, do you expect me to do what I haven't done?

Well, the fact I even had to ask you why you think Boring is Town is a sign you're not fighting her lynch. You haven't been trying to convince people Boring his Town, nor have you been pushing your scum reads particularly hard, barring a few passive-looking votes.

I thought Elmo was town because I failed to see the scum motivation in her actions

and because her wagon came together suspiciously quick.

That read passed over to boring

, who has then proceeded to give good, well-reasoned reads (although she did get up too tangled in useless back-and-forth for my tastes, which is not necessarily AI).

You might disagree with her read on you, because she says you're scum, but it's obviously to see that even if she's wrong (which I think, because I think you're town), she's not coming from a scum mindset.

Bolded

- But you also said you didn't see Town motivation in her actions either - why have you conveniently left this bit out?

Underlined

- Yes, the read passed over of her not doing anything town, nor anything scummy. That's what you call a null read, not a Town one.

Italics

- this is wrong - she is no longer saying I'm scum; I am now a null read to her. And why is it obvious it's not from a scum mindset? If it was obvious I wouldn't be voting her.

[Luca Blight]

-Iceguy is my best scumread. I don't think he can be scum with kelbris. I think it's possible for Ecto and Iceguy to be on the same team, however.

This needs to be explained.

[Luca Blight]

So you're CC'ing?

If so I really would have waited at least until Tomorrow before doing so.

[Luca Blight]

To be honest though, given Transcend's play this game, it wouldn't even surprise me if he was VT trying to eat a night-kill.

[Luca Blight]

@IceGuy - I have been paying attention. In 530 you merely said:

"boring continues Elmo's tradition of not doing anything that seems to have a scum motivation, while also not doing anything that helps town"

And in 569 you merely said 'she had started to contribute in a towny way' - that hardly justifies a strong townread in of itself.

And I don't see your point then about Elmo (and Boring later on) not having town motivation if you were already hard townreading her based on her 'scummy wagon'? it's a pointless thing to say if you're not actually feeling conflicted over that slot.

[Luca Blight]

To be honest though, given Transcend's play this game, it wouldn't even surprise me if he was VT trying to eat a night-kill.

then im done with this fucking game. There's no reason to do that ever, especially to get people to unvote you

Yes it would be a stupid/risky play, but given his other claims I wouldn't have put it past him if I were in your position.

[Luca Blight]

My first point was countering your point that you had been clearly explaining your Boring townread in the posts you mentioned - I proved that wasn't the case.

My second point - I assumed you had Elmo as 'null' at best due to your 'no scum motivation, no town motivation either' line. I certainly did not think you were townreading Elmo based on 212, nor does 530 do anything to make me think you're townreading Boring.

So my point here is a) the sequence of events seems off; you are not townreading (or at least making your townread clear) when you claimed to be in 702, and b) your comment of 'I don't see any town motivation' is a strange one to make of someone you're townreading - it's as if you want to leave the door open to wagoning later, but don't want to be held responsible for her lynch.

[Luca Blight]

No, my point was that your reads weren't as you purported them to be.

And yes, you haven't jumped on Boring's wagon, but as I said I've never been under the impression you've been massively against it either; it hasn't come across that way.

[Luca Blight]

Fair enough, although I still don't like how in 530 (your catch-up post) there is no indication of a townread on Boring, and she was at L-2 at that point I believe.

[Luca Blight]

IceGuy, does it not bother you that you're Boring's 'best scumread'?

If someone I believed was Town was scumreading me more than anyone else it would probably bother me a bit. Your lack of reaction to it seems a bit strange to me.

[Luca Blight]

IceGuy, does it not bother you that you're Boring's 'best scumread'?

If someone I believed was Town was scumreading me more than anyone else it would probably bother me a bit. Your lack of reaction to it seems a bit strange to me.

No. Town is, without PRs, barely better than random lynching. So town is wrong about X being scum pretty often.

That's a pretty depressing outlook!

[Luca Blight]

I guess Transcend is gonna become a policy lynch pretty much now - no way we can really take a chance in leaving him alive.

I'll hold off on voting until everyone's said their piece.

[Luca Blight]

Wouldn't mind a Deas lynch to be honest but don't think it'd get enough support.

[Luca Blight]

Mutant, what is your read on IceGuy?

[Luca Blight]

I ask because you have only mentioned IceGuy twice all game:

IceGuy - I don't really get many vibes from him of either alignment. I don't really see why there are votes against him.

Also, vig (if you exist) don't shoot ice. I doubt you would solely based on transcend's opinion but I'm just saying that it's probably best to wait until we have more information and reads before killing someone. Ice is definitely someone we can look into on day 2 though.

This seems pretty odd given Ice has been one of the more talked about players so far.

[Luca Blight]

I haven't got any massive scumreads which is unusual for me at the end of D1. I'm not convinced about either Ice or Boring, but I'm starting to favour an IceGuy lynch marginally.

Rem's vote is pointless right now and she should either vote a relevant wagon or declare intent to do so, as should Sheep.

IceGuy - Ecto isn't getting lynched today. You'd have to push that or another wagon like crazy, otherwise you or Boring, who you strongly townread, will be lynched.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: IceGuy

832 was pretty good apart from the self-vote. Not convinced on Ice as his play is similar to the last game I played where he was Town, but I feel he's more likely to flip scum than Boring at this stage.

Unless anyone is interested in a Deas flash-wagon?

[Luca Blight]

Well there's four hours left so let's get this done.

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Deas

I think this is a good place to start.

He hasn't done anything overtly scummy, but it feels like he's trying to blend in and his voting habits bother me - his initial vote on Elmo was good, but after that he flits around the popular wagons, his vote on Sheep in particular being completely pointless as we neared deadline.

[Luca Blight]

Basically Deas is behaving exactly how I would expect a decent scum player to - going with the flow, not making too many enemies or taking hard stances - just making basic observations without trying to take the game in a new direction.

I don't really see the urgency to find scum in his play.

[Luca Blight]

This formal posting style is not usual for Voyager and is instantly making me suspicious of him.

[Luca Blight]

I really wish Yuria had waited until at least today before CC'ing - the situation probably would have taken care of itself.

The problem is if Transcend is Town then it's basically a wet dream come true for scum.

[Luca Blight]

That is the only explanation from a Townie perspective, but unfortunately that possibility was ended with the CC.

I'm leaning Town because it would be an incredibly ballsy move by scum, especially as they'd know a JK was in the game. No way would they want to trade one of their team for a JK on D1.

[Luca Blight]

Viomi - Town

I know that a lot of people are calling it NAI, but I actually find her posting druing the replace out to be quite town. I think scum would have been much more likely to replace out and leave it at that, whereas Viomi continues to post after her request. The reason for this is that I think there is a lot less investment in the non-game aspects of in-game posts as scum. You're scum and not going to be the real you, so naturally I believe the investment level is lower. But this is clearly not the case with Viomi who seems genuinely hurt and frustrated in a way that I don't think scum would be.

This is an interesting read. Deas goes out of his way to plant in people's minds that the nature of Viomi's replace out = town. Given Viomi was apparently upset for non game related reasons (the date of her V/LA being brought up struck a cord) I really don't see how Deas can be basing a strong town read on this.

[Luca Blight]

Obviously in hindsight Transcend should have been lynched on D1 as his place in this game is becoming increasingly untenable.

I believe we should make an effort to find scum today (Deas is where we should start) but if we end up where we were Yesterday with no clear lynch candidate then we lynch Transcend.

Does that sound fair enough?

[Luca Blight]

Mutant

, you townread Deas Yesterday - is this still the case, and if so then can you run us through exactly why?

[Luca Blight]

Viomi - Town

I know that a lot of people are calling it NAI, but I actually find her posting druing the replace out to be quite town. I think scum would have been much more likely to replace out and leave it at that, whereas Viomi continues to post after her request. The reason for this is that I think there is a lot less investment in the non-game aspects of in-game posts as scum. You're scum and not going to be the real you, so naturally I believe the investment level is lower. But this is clearly not the case with Viomi who seems genuinely hurt and frustrated in a way that I don't think scum would be.

This is an interesting read. Deas goes out of his way to plant in people's minds that the nature of Viomi's replace out = town. Given Viomi was apparently upset for non game related reasons (the date of her V/LA being brought up struck a cord) I really don't see how Deas can be basing a strong town read on this.

My point here was essentially that scum are less emotionally invested in what people say to them in a game than town are. I’m happy for you to disagree with me but I do ask that you at least respect my read.

If you look at the context, nothing Viomi said after her request to replace-out was game related - she wasn't emotionally invested in the game, she was being emotional about the date of her V/LA being repeatedly brought-up. Do you deny this is the case?

Where was I being disrespectful?

I am also curious of your read of me. You seem to be saying that I’m scum for going with the flow but then also criticise my Viomi read and my vote for sheep when it was not a popular wagon (even though there was still a reasonable amount of time before deadline). How would you explain the inconsistency here?

There is no inconsistency here - neither of the things you mentioned affected the game in any way, shape or form. The Sheep vote was completely pointless because by your own admission it was only a 'weak' scumread and you weren't doing anything to push it further. When you made that vote did you actually believe there was a chance of Sheep being lynched over someone like Boring or IceGuy?

[Luca Blight]

Mutant

, you townread Deas Yesterday - is this still the case, and if so then can you run us through exactly why?

Because I don't think he is scum? People's only point against him seems to be he isn't consistent with his votes. I'd hardly call that something that makes you scum when it is the only thing they have done wrong.

On the other hand, I'd like to see why people think he is scum. Like, present me with quotes and stuff.

Yesterday, in response to me asking if anyone was interested in lynching Deas, you said the following:

No, deas has been town all game to me.

I'm willing to hammer Ice if it comes to it. He's currently at L-2.

Which lead me to believe you'd have some specific reasons at least for townreading him other than the fact he hasn't done anything particularly scummy, which is something I admitted myself.

Believe it or not, some people can play as scum without giving people a multitude of reasons to suspect them.

[Luca Blight]

Fitz, are you really willing to end the day already with a policy lynch?

[Luca Blight]

@Fitz

:

Spoiler: I indicated at the end of D1 that I was no longer prticularly scumreading Boring

I haven't got any massive scumreads which is unusual for me at the end of D1. I'm not convinced about either Ice or Boring, but I'm starting to favour an IceGuy lynch marginally.

Rem's vote is pointless right now and she should either vote a relevant wagon or declare intent to do so, as should Sheep.

IceGuy - Ecto isn't getting lynched today. You'd have to push that or another wagon like crazy, otherwise you or Boring, who you strongly townread, will be lynched.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: IceGuy

832 was pretty good apart from the self-vote. Not convinced on Ice as his play is similar to the last game I played where he was Town, but I feel he's more likely to flip scum than Boring at this stage.

Unless anyone is interested in a Deas flash-wagon?

Do you agree with the plan I suggested in 910?

What is your view on Deas at the moment?

[Luca Blight]

Deas

(stuff that I haven't mentioned so far today)

Town reads so far: Kelbris, Transcend, Mutant
I want to say Ectomancer too but there’s a little more doubt there.

I’m also very torn on IceGuy right now.

As I mentioned at the time I didn't like this post - he reels off three quick and easy townreads with the Kelbris one being particularly baffling at that stage of the game. His comments on Ecto and Ice feel fake - he's trying to play the 'conflicted townie' but there simply isn't enough content on this stage to justify expressions such as 'very torn'.

I’m now slightly paranoid that my three town reads are actually the scum team. :/

After I call Deas out on his bullshit reads he then says the above. Again, he's trying to play the conflicted townie but it just reads fake at this point in the game - why is he paranoid they are a scumteam? What he's saying has zero substance.

This is also the beginning of a continuing theme of 'conflict avoidance' I've seen from Deas in this game where he avoids directly responding to criticism/pressure.

I’ve looked over kelbris’s posts again and I can’t actually work out why I townread him. Maybe it was ~the vibe~. It’s weird because I remember thinking he was my strongest townread, which is why I put him first in my list. I’ll let you know if I work it out.

I was worried about mutant after skimming his big post, but on reread I still think he is town.

Transcend is still a townread, but I’m still interested in an answer to my posts.

Ok, he's admitting his mistakes which is all well and good, but this basically shows he's not putting in any genuine effort to read people - he gave Kelbris a townread but doesn't even know why.

UNVOTE: IceGuy

Guys Elmo

what

Hes wanting to go into night one already

Why shouldn't we?

(Also sorry for getting your pronoun wrong previously)

Also, current lynch pool for me (in order of appearance on the playerlist):

Yuria
Fishy
Elmo
kelbris
Viome

Everyone else I either think is town or don't want to lynch for some other reason. I'm also not sold on the Ectomancer suspicion.

Don't like this post either - unvotes IceGuy while asking Elmo why we shouldn't go into the night already, which is not only an anti-town POV but is also a silly question to ask someone on the verge of being lynched. The lynch pool of his is just fake scumhunting - pick a few quiet-ish players and put targets on their backs for others to aim at. He later states in 246 that he doesn't scumread anyone but Elmo, so why bother with this 'lynch pool' nonsense? Just push your scumread instead of lining up lynches of players you're not even scumreading.

Deas' position on me has always been a bit awkward (275) always saying I'm pro-town but never explicitly townreading me, because apparently what I'm doing can easily be faked. This wouldn't bother me so much if he wasn't giving others such easy townreads (such as Sheep in 277).

In 554 Deas likes Boring's attack on me upon entering the game, but in 759 he's saying her attack on me is scummy and is using it to justify his vote on her. Also in 554 he's now scumreading and voting Sheep when in 277 he was townreading him? Let's compare the differences here:

i would think that you forgot me because everyone else is town or you dont want to lynch for some reason
why dont you want to lynch me/why do you read me town for lurking

Oh I think you're town.

You've got a very clear openness about not having read the thread properly in a way that I believe reveals not having much care for what people in the game think of you, but then there are also some quality posts in there, such as 197

I also found 178 to be quite town. I think scum would have been more hesitant about laying bare transcend's plan. (If transcend is scum, then this doesn't work, however).

and then...

sheepsaysmeep - Weak Scum

In the interest of full disclosure, I've gone into this reads list thinking that this is where I'd end up voting. He's coasted by with very little attention while doing barely anything and it does get to the point where my previous town-lean for his blatant "I'm not reading the thread" does not really fly anymore. And I think this is that time. I feel like town would have gotten their act together and actually tried to contribute by now, especially considering the uncertainty following boring's replace-in. While I guess there's no reason for scum to if he's not in the line of fire for it.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep

And nowhere was this huge shift in read explained.

[Luca Blight]

@Fitz

- you didn't answer whether you liked my plan in 910.

Honestly, you seem far too comfortable lynching Transcend/sitting on that wagon right now, and your 950 regarding Dea doesn't cut it when I brought up many 'suspect' posts on the accused and you didn't address any of them. Surely if you disagree with what I said you should say so?

[Luca Blight]

ffs you are needy Luca.

wrt #910 - I agree Transcend should have been the D1 lynch (as evidenced by where I was voting to end D1).

If you want to lynch someone else (Deasvail or whomever) make a case on them that the majority of people support. I'm voting who I want gone.

I actually do not dislike Transcend and think he is a solid player, but in mutual games with him which I can recall...it seems he always winds up having stretches of asshole or dumbass play which make it not enjoyable or frustrating to play with him. And despite this I do not have a Transcend lynch policy...I have an "anyone who does lots of shit against the best interests of town/lies and outs town PRs" lynch policy.

I'm 100% completely comfortable being on the Transcend wagon.

So basically you're now done for the day? You want a Transcend lynch and are not willing to look elsewhere.

Now who's being anti-town?

As for whether my reasoning for town reading someone does or doesn't cut it with you...that's your problem. Not everyone has to be as verbose as you to have a read on someone. And I somewhat recall seeing a long post by you towards Deasvail but I couldn't be bothered to do an in depth analysis of it. That said...I've looked a few of your Deasvail posts over and I do not see any merit in what you are calling him out for.

You sound disinterested. Did you even bother reading what I wrote regarding Deas?

You say he hasn't taken any hard stances. I would say voting someone to L-1 and leaving it there through end of day is a hard stance.

You say his vote on sheep was pointless as we near deadline....he votes sheep Wed Nov 8th (post 554) and unvotes him 3 DV posts later the very next day (Nov 9th). He spends the last three RL days of D1 on boring. So how is his sheep vote 5 days before we lynched a time critical tell? Especially when he spent the majority of that time voting the same person you were?

Putting the easiest wagon in the game to L-1 isn't exactly a 'hard stance'.

I explained already about the Sheep vote - not only did it not achieve anything but it conflicted with his earlier townread on him. He then turns back to Boring, scumreading her for reasons he earlier gave her credit for (her early attack on me).

You even caveat your vote on him with "he hasn't done anything overtly scummy"...no shit. So let's vote him! No thanks. There are at least 5 other players I would vote before I would consider Deasvail att. Including you.

Right, so you want to play 'lynch the player who does the most scummy things'?

As I said earlier, there are some scum players who are capable of not giving people a multitude of reasons to suspect them - by your level of scumhunting you'd basically be giving any decent scum player a guaranteed win.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca....

Rather than putting words in my mouth to make shitty shading attempts towards me why not just actually try and come up with a coherent case on me (or anyone for that matter) and vote where your mouth is?

I did vote where my mouth is - Deas is my main suspect and that's who I'm voting. Or do you think I should vote whoever I happen to be interacting with at any given time?

Where do you get off saying I'm "done for the day" and that I'm "not willing to look elsewhere?"

Just in the last ~24 hours:

1) I've posed questions and provided opinions towards others not related to Transcend.
2) I've answered questions not related to Transcend from more than one player.

How is any of that "anti-town?" WTF do you even get that assessment from? Am I at the bottom of today's effort meter?

I have not said I'm opposed to voting outside of Transcend today. What I am doing right now is voting for who I want out of the game. He's not the only one that falls in that category and if anyone else I have strong suspicions towards is in a position to be lynched I will definitely considering moving my vote. DV isn't in that category att.

The only question you posed not related to Transcend was asking me why I'm not voting Boring, which either shows you're not being attentive at best or is fake scumhunting/deflecting at worst, because the answer should have already been apparent why I was not voting Boring.

The anti-town bit refers to being happy with a policy lynch so early in the day in posts such as 923. I asked you a couple of times about what you thought about my plan in 910 about lynching Transcend only if no other clear lynch candidate emerges and you didn't agree.

Rather than stating what isn't a hard stance why don't you give an example of what does meet your high standards of commitment? And I do not recall seeing anything in your post this day maligning DV for his sheep vote other than it being pointless and the timing of it...or anything wrt boring. You might have said it a few game days back but my total recall is out of order. If you have a better case on DV than his sheep vote as we approached deadline was pointless please provide better reference material.

Everything you've said here just shows you aren't reading properly. Read my posts on Deas today and you'll see the timing of Deas' Sheep vote is far from my only reason for suspecting him.

As for hard stances, the only one that could be argued for Deas was his original vote/case against Elmo which is pretty much the only Deas post I've liked this game.

Nice ad-homs wrt my level of scumhunting. How did your level of scumhunting work out for you D1? Are you tr'ing boring now? If so...why? If not...why hold Deavail's D1 boring voting (in conjunction w/ you) against him? Are they partners?

You go ahead and lynch people you think come across as town, I'll lynch people I think come across as scum...or excessively anti-town.

It wasn't an ad-hom - it was based directly on how you're playing this game.

As for my scumhunting, if you were reading (we've already established you're not) you'd see that I wasn't happy with any of the lynch candidates come the end of D1 and wanted a flash-wagon on Deas, which no-one was interested in.

I've already made clear my position on Boring not only on D1 but also in response to you already today.

Yeah, let's just go ahead and lynch someone who is 'excessively anti-town' on D2 regardless of the fact there is a strong likelihood they will flip Town...

[Luca Blight]

@Ecto

- Does that mean you'll be voting Deas, or do you have someone else in mind?

I don’t think I actually trust anyone anymore...

What specifically prompted you to say this?

[Luca Blight]

Also Fitz is a townread for me. His refusal to play along with town norms is what I expect from him. My impression is that he tries to look better as scum by being more amenable/playing along just a little bit more.

You have this impression from playing with Fitz before?

If so can you provide some specific examples of what you're talking about here.

[Luca Blight]

Also Deas, what's your current stance on Transcend?

[Luca Blight]

So now Deas has gone from this:

Ectomancer - Weak Town

*This read needs to be revised if Boring flips town*

I generally like their posts. Particularly ~town~ things for me are:
- Thoughts on Transcend in 546, which largely aligns with my thinking at this stage of the game.
- The sudden vote on Elmo in 172 also seems unlikely from scum, but I may reconsider this in the event that boring is scum, as I could maybe see it coming from a scumbuddy.
- 199 is a nice post too, but I can't explain why very well.

To this:

My vote is going to go to Ectomancer when I have access to a computer.

Main things are his commentary on the vig claims which seemed to be trying really hard to make it into a 1v1 when it wasn’t necessarily and his high-information, low-content posting in general such as his vote on me. I get the impression that there’s a faked enthusiasm in his posting that he doesn’t believe in and his post about makes me suspicious of him trying to fuel my wagon without explicitly bandwagoning.

With not much in-between, which seems like more inconsistency to me.

1) You were all over Boring D1, how can Ecto suddenly be a bigger scumread when you townread him for most of D1 and when he's barely posted so far in D2?

2) in 554 you say you

'generally like'

Ecto's posts, but then in 985 you criticize Ecto for doing

'high-information, low-content posting in general'

.

3) Another odd thing I noticed about Deas' 554 is that he likes Ecto's post where he wonders why people are townreading Transcend and Deas says it aligns with his thinking on Transcend, but that isn't true as Deas clearly said he townread Transcend early in the game in posts such as 59, 86 and 92. Yes, Deas changed his mind on Transcend to 'weak scum' later on, but it still doesn't align with Ecto's view on Transcend which is clearly null at this point.

4) What happened to 172 being unlikely to come from scum? Has Deas revised his opinion on this now?

5) He says 199 is a nice post...but 199 was

my

post, not Ecto's, and I don't get what's particularly 'nice' about it.

Basically I get the feeling Deas is making shit up as he goes along.

[Luca Blight]

@Fish

- I agree with most of your counter-points against UCV.

To be honest I've played in a few games with UCV and am used to his 'style' shall we say, so it no longer pings me as much as it might someone less familiar with his play. What does concern me however is that his posting style is different from what I'm used to - as if he is trying harder or something.

I don't particularly agree with the 'knowing Boring's alignment' scumslip - he seems to be saying it from the hypothetical perspective of Deas being scum and Boring Town.

UCV is certainly one to look into further down the line but I'd prefer not to take my focus off Deas for now.

[Luca Blight]

@Voyager

- do you feel like answering Fishy's case against you?

[Luca Blight]

@Voyager

- do you feel like answering Fishy's case against you?

responding to a case won't help me scum hunt!


Also, i do kind of find it funny how you placed the format thing on me, but realised the only game we are in together was the one where i was scum, so different format isn't really a bad thing.

one sec. i want to look into a few posts

So you're ignoring the fact that you were conf scum to me in that game for longer than you've been in this one, and the fact we have two other completed games together in which you were Town.

To be honest I feel UCV probably is scum here - possibly on the same scumteam as Deas. UCV learnt the benefits of bussing as scum in the last game we were in and his Deas case feels forced.

[Luca Blight]

The Mandela one.

[Luca Blight]

Regarding the change in attention from Ectomancer to boring, I did lose a bit of my passion for a boring lynch towards the end of Day 1, however I also thought there was a fairly high risk of no lynch with the competing wagons and lack of consensus,

and so I wasn’t going to attempt to introduce yet another wagon to the mix by pushing someone else.

Regarding my initial read on Ectomancer, obviously my read has changed? I liked his posting earlier in the game, but not enough to be confident in a townread, hence the weak read. He retracted his town read on Transcend at a very similar time to when I was questioning my Transcend townread, which is obviously not a locked in town tell but I thought it was more likely to be organic considering that I was having similar thoughts.

And The post of yours I linked to was clearly not the post I meant.

His post about the jail keeper claims was what first alerted me to something perhaps being wrong with my read, because it was a whole lot of talking about the claims like a 1v1 situation and coming to a conclusion that did not at all follow from the contentless information preceding it. He has since then had very similar rather talky, but insubstantial posts such as 800, 864 and 972.

The post about waiting to hammer me feels particularly insincere. On the surface it would appear that he is wanting to lynch me but with a bit of bravado thrown in, in that he wants the hammer or whatever. But the problem here is that I don’t think im that close to being lynched. Given Day 1 events it’s quite likely that wagons will shift quite a bit over the course of the day, so the whole thing he says about being the hammer are empty words, a complete lack of commitment to scumreading me and I’m pretty sure he knows that.

The above was mostly written earlier in the day on phone but I didn’t get the chance to post it. I’ll post it now and see what’s been written since.

Bolded

- You did introduce another wagon to the mix - Sheep. Can you explain your 180 on that one btw.

Underlined -

So what was the post you meant?

You said 172 was unlikely to come from scum - have you changed your mind on this now?

Also, why did you at first say you liked Boring's attack on me upon entering the game, but later use it a reason to justify your vote on her?

-----

Overall the response regarding Ecto was pretty fair, so I'm Ok leaving this here for now.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: UCV

This one is more of a gut feeling than anything, as UCV generally looks scummy regardless of alignment, but his posting in this game feels particularly forced as if he's trying too hard to come up with stuff to say.

I'm also in the 'Pr0Hawk is probably scum' camp.

[Luca Blight]

And I'd like input on my observation that Fitz is only putting in self-defence effort, as opposed to game-solving effort. Isn't that ultimately the behavior we look for in scum? Maybe it's the liberal quantities of vodka surging through my blood-stream, but I believe my Fitz-related observations are pretty fucking sweet, and they've been ignored. I'm like this close from straight up pouting over it.

Yes I agree, and I've said the same myself already.

He said in response to me earlier in the game that he doesn't get involved much as he is an 'observational' player, but I don't recall seeing too many observations from him thus far.

[Luca Blight]

@Mutant -

please explain what you disagreed with, and what about my clash with Fitz made you lose trust in me.

[Luca Blight]

Let's get more votes on UCV.

[Luca Blight]

You are scummy as either alignment, but when you're Town your posts aren't forced like they are here.

If you are Town then I'm confident I will see it eventually, but at the moment I don't see anything that makes me think you're Town.

[Luca Blight]

I think by 'privileged information' Pr0 was talking about knowing Ice was Town whereas Transcend at the time didn't, but yes the wording also pinged me a bit also.

Kelbris, thoughts on Deas and UCV?

[Luca Blight]

So why the switch from Deas? Are you no longer scumreading Deas or do you just think Mutant is more likely to be scum?

Where do you stand on Transcend right now?

[Luca Blight]

Just realised you're actually still voting Deas.

[Luca Blight]

I don't like Pr0's 1054 - it feels unnatural after scumreading the likes of Fitz and Kelbris to suddenly vote Transcend for being anti-town - he doesn't sound at all convinced in his post that Transcend is actually scum.

This whole '

he can't make it to endgame

' thing just feels like an easy cop-out that scum would use for pressing an easy lynch. How about we lynch who we actually believe is most likely to flip scum, not just who has been most anti-town?

Right now my list of

'Most likely to flip scum'

is as follows: (in no particular order)

UCV
Kelbris
Fitz
Pr0Hawk
Deas

[Luca Blight]

So why the switch from Deas? Are you no longer scumreading Deas or do you just think Mutant is more likely to be scum?

Where do you stand on Transcend right now?

im not sure what to think of transcend. He is super scummy, but that isn't unusual for him

You said he was 'obvscum' not long ago - what changed?

[Luca Blight]

@Boring
@Mutant
@Transcend

How do you feel about switching to UCV?

[Luca Blight]

How's your reading progression going now, then? Give an overview of your current reads.

Regarding Transcend, I wasn't scumreading him prior to the 'gambit', nor do I think it is something scum are likely to do on D1 except possibly as a last resort, so I'm not Ok with him just being policy-lynched right off the bat as some seem to wish. If there are no other good lynch candidates then fine, lynch him, but there are a few I'd like to see dead before him.

[Luca Blight]

You are blind - he was L-3 when he claimed.

I also clearly expressed my regret about Yuria's CC. Just because I'm not irrationally calling for Transcend's blood doesn't mean I don't care about the situation.

[Luca Blight]

I'm interested to know what about my 974 you disagree with so much as it was mainly showing Fitz up for not actually reading the thread properly.

963 - it's not always about what is said - sometimes you have to read between the lines, and the impression I got from Fitz was that he's content with lynching Transcend whenever, and I've seen nothing since to suggest this isn't the case. I don't see anything wrong with the last part of this post - Fitz was scornful of my vote for Deas because I stated he hadn't done anything overtly scummy - the fact is if you only lynch those who act really scummy then you're not going to do very well on this site, from my experience.

[Luca Blight]

UCV, you didn't answer this one:

So why the switch from Deas? Are you no longer scumreading Deas or do you just think Mutant is more likely to be scum?

Where do you stand on Transcend right now?

im not sure what to think of transcend. He is super scummy, but that isn't unusual for him

You said he was 'obvscum' not long ago - what changed?

[Luca Blight]

I'm interested to know what about my 974 you disagree with so much as it was mainly showing Fitz up for not actually reading the thread properly.

Your points about him not paying attention / not reading I feel would have been better as points about him not responding in the way you would like him to. I think his posts do reflect he has been paying attention it's just he didn't reply in too valid a way of the main points you were after.

This is very vague and gives the impression you didn't read the post too closely yourself.

Parts such as:

"

And I do not recall seeing anything in your post this day maligning DV for his sheep vote other than it being pointless and the timing of it...or anything wrt boring.

"

and

"

How did your level of scumhunting work out for you D1? Are you tr'ing boring now? If so...why? If not...why hold Deavail's D1 boring voting (in conjunction w/ you) against him? Are they partners?

"

Clearly displayed he wasn't reading properly - the Boring thing in particular I had actually answered him already earlier in the day.

[Luca Blight]

@Boring
@Mutant
@Transcend

How do you feel about switching to UCV?

I'm not thrilled about it. I liked Sheep. I'm "meh" on UCV. He's thrown a bit of effort around today, but I guess anyone can do that. If nothing improves and we don't have a consensus on someone better by EOD, I'll probably go along.

But what about Deas? Has your feeling about him changed?

I'm leaning toward a Deas, ProHawk, Fitz, kelbris scum pool. Though, I haven't read Fitz's most recent wall yet, and I've been hoping for some definitive sign of town from him, so his status might change.

I'm surprised you're so reluctant on UCV - from an objective standpoint (I know his style so give him a lot of leeway) the majority of his posts look scummy.

The reason I'm scumreading him is mainly gut feeling as, having played with him as both alignments, I feel strongly this is his scum game. The way he's avoiding conflict (ignoring the wagon on him and points addressed to him) doesn't seem like something he does as Town.

Regarding Sheep - I played a game where he was scum and he was roundly townread throughout the game by playing similarly to how he did here (although he did put more effort in there).

I still think Deas is likely to be scum but I'm feeling more confident on my UCV read right now.

[Luca Blight]

Sheep's scum game - viewtopic.php?p=9664150&user_select%5B% ... 0#p9664150

UCV's scum game - viewtopic.php?p=9758635&user_select%5B% ... 8#p9758635

The UCV one is difficult because the game in question was very long - he entered the game a newb and finished it a much more experienced player, having completed many games in the meantime. His behaviour during LYLO is more of what I'm aiming at here.

His play in this one has been a lot different from his Town games (I'm sure you can find them yourself). I could list 100 scummy things UCV has done this game already but it's pointless as he really is scummy as either alignment, but I can just tell by instinct that this isn't his Town game.

[Luca Blight]

Just generally regarding UCV, I’m leaning town. I’m trying to avoid bias based on his read of me, which I felt was pretty bad, but there was a pretty clear lack of trying to look good when he was questioned about it.

So despite UCV's bad case on you, you're leaning Town on him based on this post?

DeasVail
How did i missread your posts. It seems to me Like they meant something different then you say they do. if you could explain that to me

[Luca Blight]

The fact that Luca is basing reads on past experience, yet scum reads me without using said experience when we literally just finished a game together worries me.

I'm not one to base reads on meta generally, but UCV is a special case as he literally is scummy regardless of alignment as I keep saying.

[Luca Blight]

Luca, have you noticed the avoidance of conflict to be something UCV does as scum?

Yes.

And in response to your post, no. His response to Fishy in 1005 is more what I mean. I think his case on me was bad, but differentiating whether that comes from town or scum is a whole different thing. My guess is town because The badness was glaringly obvious in a way that I think scum would be more careful to avoid. Whereas town have a greater tendency to post without carefully thinking. And he hasn’t put as much effort as I would perhaps expect into correcting that mistake if he were scum.

He has been pretty much ignoring his mistakes for the most part - he only made that response to Fish because I called him out on it.

Please don't go down the line of saying UCV is too scummy to be scum - I cannot emphasise how scummy he is in every game he plays, whether he is Town or scum. In the game I just played with him he was scum and he lolhammered a Town PR on D1 without even allowing for a claim.

[Luca Blight]

You're continuously mislynched as Town, and the only reason you survived in that scum game was because people know you're always mislynched as Town and put your scumminess down to poor Town play.

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just stating a fact: whether you like it or not, you are scummy as both alignments - hence why I don't want to point out all the scummy shit you've done this game (there's a lot of it) as it can all be dismissed with

"but he's scummy as Town also"

. I'm looking deeper, at the intricacies between your scum and Town play, and I believe this is your scum game. Nothing so far has lead me to believe otherwise.

[Luca Blight]

I'm not having a go at you, I'm just stating a fact: whether you like it or not, you are scummy as both alignments - hence why I don't want to point out all the scummy shit you've done this game (there's a lot of it) as it can all be dismissed with "but he's scummy as Town also". I'm looking deeper, at the intricacies between your scum and Town play, and I believe this is your scum game. Nothing so far has lead me to believe otherwise.

What I'm seeing from UC is cases which I just don't believe are real; I'm pretty sure they came about through skimming someone's ISO

after

deciding to vote for them. Is that, specifically, NAI for UC?

That would be calculated behaviour, which is certainly not Town!UCV, so I would say it is AI.

UCV as Town changes his reads/opinions on a whim, but he is normally pretty transparent (if misguided) with it.

[Luca Blight]

im looking over, and your response to my case on DV makes me rethink a lot! I reread and im less confidante in scum!DV
UNVOTE: DV

This just seems like a typical Scum!UCV fake reaction.

I want to show some meta that relates to how UCV has been playing this game.

Spoiler: UCV meta with explanations

here is a question for you

How is asking me questions going to help us find scum! unless you asking me questions is scum hunting......

This is similar to 1003 where he said responding to a case won't help him scumhunt.

WOW! so it is a luca blight, Thor scum team...thank you for confirming that to me! im the most informed townie in the history of non informed townies!

Fake reaction, like the one we've just seen from UCV.

And I stand by my view that you are not acting like a townie who knows the identity of the scumteam - every post you make is reactionary and defensive.

yes. they kind of are! but that is because If the town realizes im town, you guys have to be scum! so im trying to make a defense to why i am not scum! If i am not scum, then the scum team is fairly obvious!


right now im under a shitton of pressure! the fate of the game rests on me! I hope i can save the town from losing!

More fakery (I still can't believe UCV survived this game) and the over-use of exclamation marks jumps out at me - this is something he doesn't seem to do quite so much as Town.

Whatever Thor says please let's just lynch UCV today. I will take my time sorting Thor and NSG Tomorrow.

Man. I can't believe how desperate the scum team is now! They must have a feeling that Toto wont be dumb enough to lynch me. I am really happy to see this! It helps me show Toto how these people are scum!

Another fake reaction.

Here is my meta scum....


As scum, I talk about statistics a lot. I make very small posts that look like they are useful . I come up with very step by step plans. Order of operations. Then I use my statistics to make a case.

A lot of this is assuming what i would do of that game didn't end when it did.

Saying his scum meta is different than how he was playing, as he's done in this game.

[Luca Blight]

@Pr0Hawk

It's fairly obvious Fitz isn't getting lynched today so you need to put your vote somewhere relevant.

What is your position on Deas and UCV?

[Luca Blight]

Why?

[Luca Blight]

Not too late either, though, or else it can become a last minute scramble to get any lynch over the line (a bit like what happened on D1).

Ideally we should be ready to end the day with a couple of real-life days to spare.

[Luca Blight]

Why are you protecting UCV?

And Deas, please tell me how Boring is more scummy than UCV.

I agree with Mutant when he says this lynch is Deas v UCV.

[Luca Blight]

Ecto, thoughts on UCV please.

[Luca Blight]

If you want a Fishy lynch then you'd better get talking.

[Luca Blight]

Ecto's recent play and argument with Mutant is really pinging me. He's avoiding talking about anything relevant in the game, and when he does he seems to be deliberately ambiguous with his wording.

I don't want to lose sight of UCV, though - I have a strong feeling he is scum.

[Luca Blight]

But unfortunately if you can't back up your read with anything convincing then Fishy is in no danger of being lynched today, and all your vote does is further dilute the vote-count as we begin to edge near deadline.

The better approach would have been to keep your suspicion to yourself for at least another day in the hope he'd be NK'd if he was Town.

[Luca Blight]

If you plan to make a case then I'd prefer not to say anything about him for the moment.

[Luca Blight]

Is that really all you have to say about Deas?

[Luca Blight]

What's holding you back?

[Luca Blight]

UCV is indeed

L-1

so he should think about claiming some time soon.

Pr0, what's your read on Deas?

[Luca Blight]

I'm in agreement with those who say if this flips town then Transcend is lynched Tomorrow. There is absolutely no town motivation in not waiting for a claim here.

[Luca Blight]

Or preferably the Mod so we can see it all nice and official.

[Luca Blight]

From my experience even if they're scum they normally still pretend they're Town anyway until the flip.

[Luca Blight]

Transcend is probably scum - he was against a UCV lynch all day despite not giving any reasoning when asked, and then suddenly hammers when he realises he's beyond saving.

[Luca Blight]

Transcend just needs to be insta-lynched Tomorrow regardless, or vig-killed preferably.

[Luca Blight]

So UCV and Transcend are scum, who is number three?

Ecto or Deas are most likely I think atm.

[Luca Blight]

Surely Boring is likely Town if we're assuming Transcend is scum?

At this point I'm like 99% sure Transcend is scum.

[Luca Blight]

Transcend also made Vomi quit - does that mean this slot is also probably town?

[Luca Blight]

Well done Pr0 and Boring for both reading the situation correctly at the end.

Good game, very close in the end. I read both UCV and Deas as scum. I like to think I'd have got Fish later on if i'd survived, but he played well to be fair.