Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win
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If you're actually IC, don't do this.In post 17, havingfitz wrote:[
I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?- IceGuy
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Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum.In post 39, DeasVail wrote: It seems pretty usual to me that people exaggerate the significance of their thoughts early game in order to actually have something to talk about. Is that your experience too?- IceGuy
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Thank you for putting my thoughts into words before I did.In post 68, Luca Blight wrote: He says we should lynch whoever seems least useful at the end of a long pointless early reads list which seems designed tolookuseful.
Not only does this seem contrived, it's also a terrible strategy - scum have more motivation than Town to look as though they are useful for their very survival is of most importance to them.
A full reads list on page 3? Are you serious? That's completely useless to town, but is designed to look useful.
@Mutant: Could you point me to a (completed) game of yours on another site?
I'm skeptical of people who have strong reads early in the game. By that time, there isn't really enough information you can base serious reads on - that's why RVS is a thing.In post 94, Fishythefish wrote: No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.
Calling people scum seriously that early in the game allows you to backtrack later with no consequences (nobody expects you to stick with your read from page 3), but if there's a serious wagon on the same person later on you look towny for not hopping too much, even if they flip town (oops!)
So if somebody starts two serious wagons by post #30, my alarm bells start ringing.
I think it's a scummy thing to do, but I don't think only scum does it.In post 96, Luca Blight wrote: IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.
Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for 'finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum', or could a Townie also do such?- IceGuy
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Why did you tell him to let the mod confirm it, then?In post 109, havingfitz wrote: - anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.- IceGuy
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If there's a real IC, this player might counterclaim or get the mod to confirm.In post 112, havingfitz wrote:What does a scenario where fakeclaiming town causes a real town pr to claim (the part you're quoting me on) have to do with a claimed IC getting mod confirmation?
He linked me two town games and one scum game on another site where he did the same thing. Why do you think it's alignment-indicative?In post 115, Elmo TeH AzN wrote: Side Note:
VOTE: Mutant
Who gives reads 2 Pages into a game and less then 70 posts into a game. If you were trying to generate conversation good. But come on. They were pointless. D2 or even a late D1 I can see reads.
The PM System is fine.- IceGuy
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That's the point, you don't get a penalty for hopping early in the game.In post 118, Fishythefish wrote: If Ectomancer wants to "look towny for not hopping too much" on these early wagons, surely leaving Transcend's wagon would undermine that? For this to make sense, I think Ectomancer would have to be able to use their early vote on Transcend as cover for a vote later. And they pretty clearly couldn't.
That's my RVS vote. UNVOTE:In post 134, DeasVail wrote: Also Ice why are you voting for Luca?
@Elmo: I asked you a question in 116 and you posted twice without answering it. If you don't answer the question to my satisfaction in your next post, I'll vote you.- IceGuy
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@Mod: Please check DeasVail's vote. The VC shows him as voting Elmo, but he's voting me.
Okay, so this is not a satisfactory answer. I'm still not going to vote you, because my vote would be the hammer, but I wanted it to be a pressure vote.In post 161, Elmo TeH AzN wrote:
Personally I found it to be fluff at best. Im going to contradict myself here I'm completely aware of this.In post 160, IceGuy wrote:So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?
I don't really see a reason to hammer you, because I fail to see a scum motivation for your actions. What I also don't see is a town motivation for your actions.
Also, my point on how fast this wagon came together still stands. The wagon reeks of scum which indicates to me that it's a wagon on town.
The problem was that your reasoning was very flimsy. As in, you claimed something was a scumtell that isn't. There was a good reason for me to behave as I did.In post 169, Ectomancer wrote: Do you know why IceGuy is so scummy? Because my vote on him was, I think, the first vote of the game with a real, actual scumtell for a reason. But instead of addressing that reason he responds with (paraphrase):
"Are you really going to vote me seriously 2 posts into RVS?"
And that was followed by (paraphrase):
"Oh, he isn't serious about scumhunting" (in spite of being the first vote with a real reasoning) "he'll just lynch anybody"
lynch Iceguy
But I didn't vote Ectomancer? I actually said that while I considered it a scummy thing to do, I don't necessarily consider him scum for it.In post 184, Fishythefish wrote: Sure. IceGuy said something that didn't sound true (I quote it inline in post 94 above). He said it in a context where he had motivation to call ecto scummy, as ecto had voted him. I wanted to work out whether:
- It made more sense than I thought, and was neutral for IG
- It didn't make sense, and was a weak excuse to vote his voter. You can argue about how much that speaks to IG's alignment, but weak excuses for OMGUS are at least worth following up.
But that was actually what happened in the game. You were scum and I was town, and you wagoned me to look more town and probably get me lynched.In post 211, Luca Blight wrote: I made a big case on him (which he cut out of the quote) and he completely disregards it and says I'm just trying to find reasons to wagon him which, let's be honest, could be said about any wagon!
So, let's have a look at the wagon on Elmo. The people on it are Ectomancer, Luca Blight, Transcend, mutantdevle and Yuria. DeasVail isn't on it but both the mod and he himself think he is, so I'm going to include him here.
Luca and Transcend look solid town. Yuria was in the scum camp but is getting townier; mutant is null to me.
DeasVail is scummy, though. Few posts, hopping with little justification (or attempted hopping, to be precise), no commitment to town reads and "strong suspicion" on Transcend for the fake hammer. Hammering without a claim should elicit a harsher reaction than a rather quiet post.
I also don't like Ecto. He still defends his RVS/non-RVS vote on me and he had absolutely no problem with putting Elmo on L-1. Ironically he's being "helpful town" in 172, the same thing he called me scum for. I'm no longer ready to see his behavior as "scummy town", I believe it's "scummy scum".
VOTE: DeasVailand ready to also vote Ectomancer if that wagon turns out to be more successful- IceGuy
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Re-reading your post, you're right.In post 213, DeasVail wrote:IceGuy, I knew that Transcend was already on the wagon.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Ectomancer- IceGuy
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Would you mind explaining why those people are in your lynch pool?In post 225, DeasVail wrote: Also, current lynch pool for me (in order of appearance on the playerlist):
Yuria
Fishy
Elmo
kelbris
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No. I'm just not seeing a scum motivation for your play, and I refuse to jump on your wagon because it reeks of scum.In post 247, Elmo TeH AzN wrote: Also note that Iceguy has tried to buddy buddy me so far which Im sure everyone has noticed.
Unfortunately, "lynch Elmo" x3 doesn't help town at all.In post 270, Ectomancer wrote: Oh my god, he IS playing the game and being funny about it! You may see image image image, but I see lynch Elmo lynch Elmo lynch Elmo!- IceGuy
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You seem to be very interested in lynching Elmo. Unfortunately, you've so far not expressed any kind of reason why she should be lynched. Do you mind providing one, clearly demonstrating how her behavior makes her scum?In post 291, Ectomancer wrote:Are you going to bore us to sleep? Let's get an L-1 on Elmo.- IceGuy
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VOTE: kelbris
You hit several scum points at once. You were pretty active in the early game, but after the town reads on you took a backseat. Then comes #253, which Luca has already rightfully called out, and now you put her at L-1 for pretty much no reason at all while stating that "it was not your intention to appear scummy". It's nobody's intention to look scummy. You should state what's your town motivation, instead.- IceGuy
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#42 by sheepsaysmeep and #64 by mutantdevie.In post 341, DeasVail wrote: What were the townreads on kelbris? I only recall mine and that was more of a mistake than anything else.
We can just agree that nobody counterclaims Elmo immediately, town directs the claimed power and if it's an informative PR she has to claim the results the next day. This will either make it obvious she's fakeclaiming or it will draw scum's NK to Elmo, which is better than her getting lynched. What I would prefer is that we would lynch actual scum, though, like kelbris.In post 348, mutantdevle wrote: The only thing that would prevent most of us from lynching the spot would be if the replacement role claimed as a power role. That is bad as it would result in a counterclaim exposing one of our PRs. If Elmo was a PR they would have role claimed by now. Overall, it would just be unfair on the replacement or do damage to the town.- IceGuy
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Okay, most of those pages was useless back-and-forth and Transcend spamming.
Two people have now replaced out because of Transcend for reasons that seem NAI. He seems to take the joy out of playing for most people and that's anti-town behavior because it makes good lynches (i.e. lynches that hit scum) harder. Not necessarily scummy behavior but it doesn't help town either, since his "reads" are all over the place and don't come with a justification.In post 389, Ectomancer wrote:Let's drop this bullshit plotline where Transcend was being mean to Elmo. He was calling for a lynch on someone who he believes to be scum and. Transcend does NOT need to apologize before Elmo leaves the site for good. Elmo needs to take a break from mafia. Playing mafia means being pressured and Transcend's images were PG-13 at worst and made me chuckle.in a humorous fashion!
Looks like you're still trying to save that page 2 read.FYI, the Elmo turns town means Iceguy scum theory was already laid out by me as soon as IceGuy voted and ties in Yuria-scum.
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I don't see Luca as scum. I saw him playing as scum and he played differently, pushing lynches (in that case: me) way harder. I also don't see another reason why he could be scum.
I have a townread on Fish and fitz.
I have a gut feeling that DeasVail is scum.
I want to see more content from kelbris, Yuria and Viomi's replacement.
boring continues Elmo's tradition of not doing anything that seems to have a scum motivation, while also not doing anything that helps town.- IceGuy
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I think it's pretty obvious from a game-theory standpoint that IC confirmation at that point is a bad idea - but I didn't know whether everybody in the game knew.In post 541, boring wrote:This is the kind of post that could spawn a game-theory dissertation. I understand the backlash.
It is blackmail. I wanted Elmo to start contributing to town.I also understand Elmo's reaction to Iceguy after this post. I disagree that it was a buddy attempt, though. It reads almost like blackmail. "As long as you don't fight too hard, I'll just sit back and let someone else take the blame for your lynch. But don't forget that I can fuck you up". I included the wagon breakdown, though because it's just so bizarre.FTR, "pressure votes" are an easy excuse for scum to park on town without actual justification. And saying you want to "pressure" someone by warning them that your vote would be a hammer is all-around terrible.
Yes. This was true at the point I wrote this post.Are you real serious?
Because they're helpful to town, and I don't see a scum motivation for any of their actions, really.In post 549, Luca Blight wrote: Why do you townread Fish and Fitz?
Because I only have one vote and I consider kelbris scummier.If you feel Deas is scum why not vote him?
At the point I wrote this post, Boring was mostly engaged in useless back-and-forth. However, she's now started contributing in a towny way.I agreed with your point earlier about Elmo lacking both town and scum motivation in her posts, but I don't think you can say the same about Boring; to do so feels like you're choosing to be non-committal on the topical slot of the game. I think there is enough content now from Boring to take a stance one way or the other, so which is it to be?
What kind of justification is this? Vote somebody to get a claim, but lynch somebody else no matter what the claim is?In post 564, Ectomancer wrote: So vote boring, get the claim, and then let's lynch IceGuy and have something to go on in the morning.- IceGuy
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Why should boring claim if she isn't getting lynched?In post 590, Ectomancer wrote: I want boring's claim and then I want Iceguy lynched. Why? Iceguy is a better lynch but Ido want that boring claim.
Also, Transcend is now firmly in scum camp for #573/#574. I will vote any of {DeasVail, Transcend, kelbris} for today, since deadline is three days away. I will also be open to lynching a lurker (Yuria, sheep, Rem) before a no-lynch happens. I will not vote somebody else.- IceGuy
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It's just Transcend being his usual anti-town self.In post 632, mutantdevle wrote:*slow claps*Well fucking done. I'm surprised no one has picked up on this vigilante claim by you before my comment and I just think it shows that people aren't really reading your posts due to them being full of ramblings and insults. But seriously why would you claim to be vig day 1? It's like you want to be shot tonight. If there is a jailkeeper then they could save you but your kill would be cancelled out. If I were you, I would now regularly update us on who you want to kill tonight so that if there is a JK they can decide if it's worth risking letting you die to kill your target. Of course, if there is no JK you are fucked (and let's be honest, I don't think many people would mind that based on how you've acted during the game).
How do you come to this conclusion? I feel like he's mostly jumping on the most promising wagon that isn't himself.In post 635, Luca Blight wrote:Actually 572 is pretty decent as well - enough to keep me off Kelbris' wagon for today.- IceGuy
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At that point, it was. The boring wagon looked like it fell apart.In post 638, Luca Blight wrote:IceGuy- Transcend is the most promising wagon that isn't himself? We'll have to disagree there.- IceGuy
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Deadline is now two days away and there's a promising wagon on one of them.In post 617, IceGuy wrote: Also, Transcend is now firmly in scum camp for #573/#574. I will vote any of {DeasVail, Transcend, kelbris} for today, since deadline is three days away. I will also be open to lynching a lurker (Yuria, sheep, Rem) before a no-lynch happens. I will not vote somebody else.
VOTE: Transcend- IceGuy
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Is that a serious claim?In post 678, Transcend wrote: Oh and also Im a jailkeeper so don't lynch me.- IceGuy
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No. I've clearly stated that I'd prefer a lynch of any of those three people, and would vote three others to prevent a no-lynch. You don't see me jumping on boring's wagon, for instance, because I believe she is town.In post 695, Luca Blight wrote: IceGuy here is doing the exact thing he accused Kelbris of doing.- IceGuy
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What, exactly, do you expect me to do what I haven't done?In post 700, Luca Blight wrote:You're not exactly fighting her lynch either though, are you?
I thought Elmo was town because I failed to see the scum motivation in her actions and because her wagon came together suspiciously quick. That read passed over to boring, who has then proceeded to give good, well-reasoned reads (although she did get up too tangled in useless back-and-forth for my tastes, which is not necessarily AI). You might disagree with her read on you, because she says you're scum, but it's obviously to see that even if she's wrong (which I think, because I think you're town), she's not coming from a scum mindset.Why do you think she's Town?- IceGuy
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No, it just means that you haven't been paying attention. See #530 and #569.In post 703, Luca Blight wrote: Well, the fact I even had to ask you why you think Boring is Town is a sign you're not fighting her lynch.
You should know from 698 that this is my playstyle. I'm no Transcend.You haven't been trying to convince people Boring his Town, nor have you been pushing your scum reads particularly hard, barring a few passive-looking votes.
You do not get to chop off half an argument. I thought she was town because no scum motivation + scummy wagon makes town in my book.In post 703, Luca Blight wrote:Bolded- But you also said you didn't see Town motivation in her actions either - why have you conveniently left this bit out?
Underlined- Yes, the read passed over of her not doing anything town, nor anything scummy. That's what you call a null read, not a Town one.
Because scum would've likely chosen the easy way out (picking any established wagon and making arguments there). Boring isn't and I don't think she's playing a big game.Italics- this is wrong - she is no longer saying I'm scum; I am now a null read to her. And why is it obvious it's not from a scum mindset? If it was obvious I wouldn't be voting her.
Also, VOTE: Transcend due to Yuria's counterclaim.- IceGuy
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I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. I had Elmo as town because I failed to see a scum motivation for her actions and because of how the wagon came together. With boring replacing Elmo, I gradually became more confident in that read as boring started to display a town motivation.In post 711, Luca Blight wrote:@IceGuy - I have been paying attention. In 530 you merely said:
"boring continues Elmo's tradition of not doing anything that seems to have a scum motivation, while also not doing anything that helps town"
And in 569 you merely said 'she had started to contribute in a towny way' - that hardly justifies a strong townread in of itself.
And I don't see your point then about Elmo (and Boring later on) not having town motivation if you were already hard townreading her based on her 'scummy wagon'? it's a pointless thing to say if you're not actually feeling conflicted over that slot.- IceGuy
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So your point is that my reads change as the game progresses. Okay.
By the way, I was suspicious about Elmo's wagon already in #158.
Also, you probably should've noticed that despite all the opportunities, I haven't jumped on Elmo's or boring's wagon. If I wanted a lynch of any of them, there would've been several possibilities to be the hammer.- IceGuy
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Direct quote:In post 717, Luca Blight wrote:No, my point was that your reads weren't as you purported them to be.
In post 212, IceGuy wrote: I don't really see a reason to hammer you, because I fail to see a scum motivation for your actions. What I also don't see is a town motivation for your actions.
Also, my point on how fast this wagon came together still stands. The wagon reeks of scum which indicates to me that it's a wagon on town.
As I said, playstyle.And yes, you haven't jumped on Boring's wagon, but as I said I've never been under the impression you've been massively against it either; it hasn't come across that way.- IceGuy
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At that point, my boring townread was still very much based on my Elmo read.In post 719, Luca Blight wrote:Fair enough, although I still don't like how in 530 (your catch-up post) there is no indication of a townread on Boring, and she was at L-2 at that point I believe.- IceGuy
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No. Town is, without PRs, barely better than random lynching. So town is wrong about X being scum pretty often.In post 722, Luca Blight wrote:IceGuy, does it not bother you that you're Boring's 'best scumread'?
If someone I believed was Town was scumreading me more than anyone else it would probably bother me a bit. Your lack of reaction to it seems a bit strange to me.- IceGuy
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We don't even know whether we have a vig. Also, since he has pushed pretty much everybody in the game, those interactions can be reviewed with the knowledge of his flip.In post 774, Fishythefish wrote: @IceGuy: probably not. But I think lynching him for that reason is fairly low information. Transcend would make a great vig target.- IceGuy
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You, of all people, call somebody else out for changing reads?In post 788, Transcend wrote: HMMMMMMMMMMM- IceGuy
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You changed your vote in the posts #46, #75, #138, #325, #342, #412, #430, #573, #601, #619, #630 and #731. You voted DeasVail, Luca, Elmo, me, Elmo again, Viomi, boring, kelbris, rem, me again, boring again and me again. You voted more than half the players in the game (seven people).In post 792, Transcend wrote: telleveryone here how much my reads have changed
I think that says all that needs to be said.- IceGuy
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My bad. You only voted six times, not seven times.In post 794, Transcend wrote:okay first of all viomi and rem are in the same slot
second of all notice that deas luca and kelbris i only vote once
Didn't you call me scum for this exact thing earlier?it's sorta just adjusting my vote to where i feel the lynch will go towards - IceGuy
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