Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[Ectomancer]

We need two good trains today and Transcend has volunteered to be the engine for the first of them.

VOTE: Transcend

[Ectomancer]

[
I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

If you're actually IC, don't do this.

He is quite clearly Inexperience Challenged. Now quit flapping your gums and jump on his wagon.

[Ectomancer]

[
I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

If you're actually IC, don't do this.

He is quite clearly Inexperience Challenged. Now quit flapping your gums and jump on his wagon.

Why so hasty

There are two wagons today. Transcend and IceGuy and he wouldn't jump on his own wagon right? And I can't get both a Transcend and an Iceguy wagon going by myself, I'm going to need some help. So naturally I am going to petition the guy who wouldn't be on an Iceguy wagon to anchor this Transcend one for me.
We are starting to get some movement on Transcend though, so I am going to:

UNVOTE: Transcend

VOTE: Iceguy

Transcend kicks off the game with the "IC" claim (quoted due to "Chile") and havingfritz decides to cross foils with him. So it begins. I don't know the alignment of these two, but they were creating information and rope by which people might hang themselves.
I asked myself why Iceguy would state the super obvious to Transcend to not ask the mod to confirm the role claimed. Iceguy has been around, but Transcend has literally 10x the number of posts of either one of us. So I'm slapping Iceguy with an "I'm a super helpful townie" scum tell violation.

[Ectomancer]

Are people seriously basing a scumread on two posts, one of which is RVS?

Building an elaborate multi-paragraph post where you break down every detail of what makes them scum is beautiful. Single post slip-ups where I can say "Ahah! I got you scum!" are even better and anecdotally are historically more accurate.

So yes, it is just that easy to post and get caught as scum in early game. You'll do better next time

[Ectomancer]

It seems pretty usual to me that people exaggerate the significance of their thoughts early game in order to actually have something to talk about. Is that your experience too?

Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum.

But you keep saying these lynchable things.....like this

[Ectomancer]

Town reads so far:

Kelbris

, Transcend, Mutant
I want to say Ectomancer too but there’s a little more doubt there.

I’m also very torn on IceGuy right now.

I'm skeptical as to this Townread of Kelbris here.

Spoiler: Let's take a look at his posts

Hello everyone, let's have a great game.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep
everyone has their own way of saying hello, maybe dave's a Fat Albert fan.

I don't think IceGuy is bad tbh. Looking at his posts so far, we have an RVS post, one that is advising someone else to NOT get the mod to confirm their IC role (a good idea tbh, since that would make the IC an easy target for maf) and one (which I agree with) saying that others are basically using 2 posts for their reads, neither of which are scum-posts.

I don't know if Transcend has been IC before, but it is possible that IceGuy was telling him just in case, lots of posts does not equal experience as roles such as IC, not voting for them yet because of the IC claim, it might be accurate, then again, I have never been in a game with that role before so idk.

I don't have any other reads right now, so I am going to

UNVOTE:
for now.

I was voicing my opinion on the 2 main wagons in the game. People were voting Transcend because of his "IC" claim, and voting IceGuy because of his advice to not get the mod to reveal. So far, the only one I have any suspicion on is havingfitz because of his suggestion that Transcend should get the mod to confirm the IC claim D1, something which I believe does nothing but put a big target on the IC's back (unless there is a JK, but we don't know what the maf chose).

Post #1 - Rvs; NAI.

Post #2 - what I would call an unproductive post - it's early in the game and 'pressure' on the likes of Transcend and IceGuy is designed to create content. Defending IceGuy here does nothing but put a halt to that momentum, leaving the game back where it started; with nothing. I'm even more skeptical after Deas' point (which I agree with) in 39 where he acknowledges that such exaggeration of early posts in and around RVS is sometimes required - why then does he like this post by Kelbris?

Post #3 - Kelbris explains his #2 post. His point against Fitz is fair enough, but then why not mention it in post #2 and why not place a vote on Fitz/follow up his suspicion with questioning?

So if Deas could explain this one, that would be great.

This is good scum hunting right here.

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Go Luca!

And this one:

The mod cannot confirm me as innocent chile

I assumed a mispell...not lame humor.

Shame....you're one it would be nice to have confirmed.

VOTE: Transcend

You call it a 'shame' he's not genuinely claiming IC, but then later are annoyed that an IC could have potentially been outed:

Regardless...pretty clear there will be an IC in this game which makes Transcend's lol claim all the more annoying. Would have sucked if Transcend is town and his humor caused the real ~IC to claim. As it is...I think the ~IC should wait until he/she is on the verge of being lynched...if that ever happens. Same obviously for the other 2 PRs.

Beautiful.

hi
in what universe is hiding reason to vote someone town

When you don't want scum to know what you saw. You just want them to do it again but felt pressure enough to defend a previous post you made with a "with reason" backing it up.
Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

When you say "devoid of context" - do you think there's more context I should have added?

Devoid of context because you were making a general statement that didn't take into account the current state of play - the fact the game is still in its infancy which means wagon switches bear less significance.

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

Fair enough.

IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.

Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for '

finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum

', or could a Townie also do such?

Do you know why IceGuy is so scummy? Because my vote on him was, I think, the first vote of the game with a real, actual scumtell for a reason. But instead of addressing that reason he responds with (paraphrase):
"Are you really going to vote me seriously 2 posts into RVS?"
And that was followed by (paraphrase):
"Oh, he isn't serious about scumhunting" (in spite of being the first vote with a real reasoning) "he'll just lynch anybody"

lynch Iceguy

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.

I agree as a general point, but so early in the game?

Obviously Mafia are very likely to look into previous setups as they choose the powers, but as a Townie myself it didn't even cross my mind to check, and nor would it until something of relevance to the setup occurred.

Perhaps that's just me though.

Nope, that's me too.

Just to be clear, I want Fitz to answer the following

:

With regards to looking so thoroughly into the setup so early on, do you have any meta that shows this is something you do as Town?

You don't think Transcend's fake claim was AI indicative and are in fact townreading him, so why would you vote him?

What compelled you to unvote in 43? I don't want a general reason, I want to know why specifically you unvoted here and not in your previous 31?

What do you mean by the '

consistency of my wagon

', and why is that a reason to not vote me?

Other general points that aren't necessarily questions:

I don't like how you had time to make a long post on setup spec and excuse making but did not interact with anyone or show any hint that you're trying to find scum.

I don't like how self-concious you seem - you feel the need to explain your RVS vote even though no-one mentioned it, you felt the need to explain your Transcend vote and your position on Transcend so everyone knows you might unvote soon. You were worried your 31 might be perceived as rolefishing.

I don't like your conflicted view of being annoyed that the IC might be drawn out while also saying an early IC claim isn't bad. Also how you said it's a 'shame' Transcend's claim wasn't real - it doesn't match up, and makes your subsequent claim of 'annoyance' seem fake.

I don't like how you say you were thinking of voting me but then don't vote me - what is the purpose of this exactly? A veiled threat to say 'if you keep this up I will vote you?' A way of throwing a bit of shade while avoiding direct conflict?

/good stuff just keeps coming

Is giving these reads scummy as well as pointless?

Never said it was scummy.

You voted, and then criticised the big list of reads, so I rather assumed you thought the big list of reads was scummy. If not - why did you vote mutant?

I'm liking this Elmo wagon.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

mutantdevle is town.

I'm all the more interested to hear Fitz' observations given he only seems to post about things that are directly related to him.

I'm not a fan of havingfitz

I do not like how fast Elmo's wagon is coming together. Now to figure out whether Elmo is actually town, and who's in it for the mislynch.

Now that you know Yuria-scum is on it you need to show that you could sense scum suddenly on the wagon?

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

Oh but going for the lynch after all huh? Elmo - town equals IceGuy-scum.......so let's lynch IceGuy! Oh, but Elmo is equally as good.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

vote: Elmo TeH AzN

Time for a claim.

Do not hammer and try to say you didn't know

[Ectomancer]

That was shockingly easy

It was the proper thing to do.

Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

um, im not sure what you're talking about, but i squaked cuz luca got to fishy before me, and in a way that makes interpreting whether he's actually doing the tell way harder. There's no real point in not being transparent about it; scum will do scum tells again if they're legit tells and none of y'all know me well enough to cater your play to me.

That's good explaining.

[Ectomancer]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

Funny. You don't seem to be on eggshells.

[Ectomancer]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

Funny. You don't seem to be on eggshells.

Probably because I'm Town.

Good explanation.

Could you straighten out sheep for me then? Because even though he messed up the spoiler tags he seems to be implying that my posts are devoid of any content of their own and instead are mere (mere, like taking stances on others words are practically useless), as I was saying, mere fluff directed at quotes from others. I'm older now. Calmer. I don't just go off on people for being stupid anymore. No. I make polite requests of others to do it for me.

[Ectomancer]

To be fair you did give your own opinions in that post as well.

Only thing I would say is to answer why you say Mutant is Town based on 141?

Oh, it wasn't actually his 141 post. It was his dorky list. His 141 was just a convenient spot to say, "Oh yeah, mutant = town" since he was doing the sensible thing and wagoning Elmo.

[Ectomancer]

Are you still maintaining that IceGuy is scum? To be honest I thought the early wagon was just for pressure purposes and to get the game out of RVS.

His posts since RVS haven't really pinged me at all.

My wall of quotes detailed two instances after I made my accusation against him where he could have directly answered to my reasoning. I felt as though I had given the first vote out of the RVS stage. By definition, that means an actual reason. Specifically, it was the "I'm a helpful townie" tell because it felt forced to me given Transcend's experience and it was a "duh" type of post. If you are town I expect you to tell me why, right? It is a reasonable expectation. But what did he do?

#1 - Question me about whether I am serious after 2 posts in RVS.
#2 - Question whether I am scum hunting at all.

So a simple "you are being too helpful" tell; blew up quickly to a "wow, you've avoided answering to our first serious accusation" twice now.

By the way, the following is just a technical game comment. - Transcend skipped the RVS stage and he was first post. There was no RVS stage this game.

[Ectomancer]

Wow still 8 days left to lynch... it’s really going to take me a while to get used to these long day phases :/

Somebody else smack me.

[Ectomancer]

And I hope he starts playing the game instead of posting images.

Oh my god, he IS playing the game and being funny about it! You may see image image image, but I see lynch Elmo lynch Elmo lynch Elmo!

[Ectomancer]

Are you going to bore us to sleep? Let's get an L-1 on Elmo.

[Ectomancer]

Requesting Replacement.

I have my reasons. Im Sure you can deduce them yourselves.

It looks like "I don't want to play anymore" to me. You need to use some actual communicative verbage if it is otherwise.

[Ectomancer]

Let's drop this bullshit plotline where Transcend was being mean to Elmo. He was calling for a lynch on someone who he believes to be scum and

in a humorous fashion!

. Transcend does NOT need to apologize before Elmo leaves the site for good. Elmo needs to take a break from mafia. Playing mafia means being pressured and Transcend's images were PG-13 at worst and made me chuckle.

FYI, the Elmo turns town means Iceguy scum theory was already laid out by me as soon as IceGuy voted and ties in Yuria-scum.

[Ectomancer]

Geezus I hate this but I have to retract a town tell.

Town people please tell me....who the fuck died and made Transcend town? Nobody? Nobody died? Claimed? Night result? Nothing?

Then why are boring and Luca going back and forth about buddying with Transcend? Transcend ain't town! At least not in my little part of it! He might not be scum either, but nobody over here gave him a notary public stamp like these two have seen on his person somewhere.

[Ectomancer]

Well i agree with you about ice

Let me restate what I said earlier then only in a different way:

If IceGuy flips scum, boring is town and Yuria is scum.

[Ectomancer]

OMGUS havingfitz is scum! (actually he probably is)

I voted Elmo because it was time for a claim. My suspicions now are that it is past time for a claim from boring so Mutant get your nubby little town butt back on the boring wagon so that we can get this claim.

People, town people that is. 22 pages with no lynch and not even a claim pressured is not a good thing for town. More posting <> more content but it does mean a greater noise ratio in the game. It makes it harder to sort out the actually scummy and gives scum more material to manipulate. It is a delicate balance. We need information to base our lynches upon. But we need it to be good, solid, info with no room for interpretation (manipulation). That's what a claim is. The rest of this? Just more material that can be warped into a mislynch down the road.

So enough with the long lists and constant "Can you explain this?" or WORSE, "Can you elaborate on this?" AKA "just keep'em talking and building up that fog of war".

So vote boring, get the claim, and then let's lynch IceGuy and have something to go on in the morning.

[Ectomancer]

Geezus I hate this but I have to retract a town tell.

Town people please tell me....who the fuck died and made Transcend town? Nobody? Nobody died? Claimed? Night result? Nothing?

For me it comes down to faith in human decency. A town role makes people feel kind of like they are the "good guy". It let's some players feel justified in being aggressive toward others. As town, he can somewhat rationalize harassing people he believes are scum (the "bad guys"). I don't like it, but I get it.

If I have to assume that he's just harassed two townies out of the game as scum, I have to hold a low opinion of him as a person.
That's very poor sportsmanship, and frankly, I don't even know if his scum buddies would have had the stomach to support it.

Alright now, you dropped the ball on this answer.

I'm aggressive. It doesn't make me town. It doesn't make Transcend town. Your comment makes it appear as though you

don't

get that.

Worse, your stance would encourage scum to play aggressively; as you just gave Transcend such a town read based upon aggressive meta, it then resulted in you arguing about buddying as if Transcend were

actually

town.

I want boring's claim and then I want Iceguy lynched. Why? Iceguy is a better lynch but I

do want that boring claim

.

@REM - Did you really just ask boring to pbp sheep's every post? SOLID information is what we need, NOT a damn individuals rundown of another individuals entire post list in 24+ page game!!

[Ectomancer]

@REM - Did you really just ask boring to pbp sheep's every post? SOLID information is what we need, NOT a damn individuals rundown of another individuals entire post list in 24+ page game!!

Isolating a few posts you think are good and explaining why and post by post analysis are a lot different.

/facepalm

Boring says "sheep's made a contribution with

each

post"
You say "<saying> Sheep contributing with every post is just objectively wrong"

But you didn't say which ones were wrong.

So when you then say "Could you explain the contributions you like out of him" then that means every post! Because boring said every post contributes.

So where is this selective analysis? How about you list the posts you think DIDN'T contribute instead? Let's hear your analysis instead. I've heard enough from boring/Elmo.

[Ectomancer]

Spoiler:

Ectomancer

looks

town

. The post above is my favorite (try to focus on the motivation behind a post like that rather than the content). The way he cheered on Luca looked very town motivated too. He engaged Elmo productively, or at least tried. He also appears motivated to move the game along.

I want to reduce

Ectomancer

to

townlean

because I can't think up any town motivation for wanting me -- or anyone -- to claim right now.

- If I'm a PR, that's a bad idea.
- If I'm a VT, it narrows the pool of potential PRs for scum, which is a bad idea.
- If I'm scum, it risks drawing out a PR, which is a bad idea.
- If he thinks I'm scum and he wants to pin me down to claim, then it brings us back to the above-mentioned bad ideas, and begs the question: why not just vote me?

I am voting you and I don't expect a claim until L-1. Your wagon has the most information. The other wagons are crap. When I move my vote it will be to Iceguy.
IceGuy and Yuria are scum on the Kelbris wagon together. Mutant is our lovable but mafia challenged townie, and Transcend is Transcend. That makes Fishy town. Having called out the IceGuy and Yuria scum pair I need to be taken out which makes havingfitz scum number 3.

GG all.

unvote

[Ectomancer]

... then mutant ... I've stumbled into a game populated by people who don't understand the word "and"

Could you please point out where this happened as I really don't see where you're coming from here?

you're a fucking idiot die
i don't need shitbags like you in my town

VOTE: kelbris

we're lynching boring tomorrow i swear to god if that slot doesn't die this game i'm going to be very mad

I don't think scum make this post so Transcend is probably town.

i would actually make a post like this as scum

Same tbh.

Why would you defend Transcend by saying what he is doing isn't a scum tell if you admit you would do it as scum???


@boring this whole thing of updating your reads everytime your opinion changes is getting kinda boring.

(see what I did there?)

It's almost as if you view your own opinion as the most important and hence are shoving it down our throats. It also falls into the whole trap I fell in of looking scummy by being overly helpful. I doubt that's the impression you were trying to give but since a good portion of your posts as basically reads or read updates rather than general discussion it's the way it's coming across to me.

Spoiler:

Ectomancer

looks

town

. The post above is my favorite (try to focus on the motivation behind a post like that rather than the content). The way he cheered on Luca looked very town motivated too. He engaged Elmo productively, or at least tried. He also appears motivated to move the game along.

I want to reduce

Ectomancer

to

townlean

because I can't think up any town motivation for wanting me -- or anyone -- to claim right now.

- If I'm a PR, that's a bad idea.
- If I'm a VT, it narrows the pool of potential PRs for scum, which is a bad idea.
- If I'm scum, it risks drawing out a PR, which is a bad idea.
- If he thinks I'm scum and he wants to pin me down to claim, then it brings us back to the above-mentioned bad ideas, and begs the question: why not just vote me?

This is a good point but honestly, there is no way you are anything over than a VT or scum. I don't get why Ectomancer is seemingly pushing you to false claim a PR because there is no way that would ever be believable based on Elmo's actions.

but i'm gonna vig boring tonight so who cares

lynch rem today

*slow claps*

Well fucking done. I'm surprised no one has picked up on this vigilante claim by you before my comment and I just think it shows that people aren't really reading your posts due to them being full of ramblings and insults. But seriously why would you claim to be vig day 1? It's like you want to be shot tonight. If there is a jailkeeper then they could save you but your kill would be cancelled out. If I were you, I would now regularly update us on who you want to kill tonight so that if there is a JK they can decide if it's worth risking letting you die to kill your target. Of course, if there is no JK you are fucked (and let's be honest, I don't think many people would mind that based on how you've acted during the game).

My apologies. I underestimated your abilities.

vote Boring

You know what? That might be L-1 or it might be the hammer. Oh well. <Submit>

[Ectomancer]

@mod - vote count please

unvote

I don't want boring lynched.

[Ectomancer]

vote Iceguy

[Ectomancer]

Don't lynch anybody until I come back with a breakdown post on events please.

Nobody else claim!

[Ectomancer]

Holy shit, I said

do not lynch anyone

.

[Ectomancer]

and @davesaz

vote count please

[Ectomancer]

Power roles are chosen from (Innocent Child, Tracker, 1-shot Cop, Jailkeeper, 2-shot Vigilante)

Alright, time to break out the role speculation and try to apply it to our current situation. Earlier in the game wasn't the time for it but I think its time we brought it out for discussion. There are nuances to power combinations that frankly I don't feel I could chart out and so yes, this is going to dip into meta. Scummy I know, but if I don't know it then others don't know it and I would prefer to do it while the greater percentage of input comes from town.

Scum got to choose 3. Which? My picks would be the following:

Innocent Child - Power is a mod reveal of their town status but an early reveal isn't advantageous. Choose and hope for a quick lynch or night kill.
1-shot Cop - Single reveal of their targets alignment but an early investigation isn't worth as much as a later one if revealed. Choose and hope for a quick lynch or night kill.

Of the remaining:

Tracker can confirm the 1-shot Cop if lucky.
2-shot Vig is more than a random element and there are certain mafiascum players I would be stressed about having 2 kills as town.

We've had a claim and counter-claim to JailKeeper and so that seems to be the 3rd role.

So I think that we lynch neither JailKeeper role claim. Either they target scum making the kill and both are alive tomorrow, or one is dead and we lynch the other. If a Vig exists, stay away from these two.

Well that wasn't a total breakdown but its enough to start. Ya'll elaborate.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto: Transcend has claimed his claimed was a gambit - so Yuria is the real JK. (Or, I suppose, Yuria is scum who knows there is no JK in the game)

@IceGuy: probably not. But I think lynching him for that reason is fairly low information. Transcend would make a great vig target.

Okay, so Fishy kind of gets it. Yuria as scum has no problem counter-claiming Transcend because Transcend has been really erratic. Following that line of thought if I were Yuria:

1: Yuria doesn't get lynched today.
2: Transcend turns up vanilla town tomorrow. So what? Everyone will say Transcend was stupid and Yuria is a practically confirmed JK.
3: Transcend turns up JK. We got the power role that can stop our night kills. Sweet.

Neither Transcend nor Yuria is a good town target for lynch OR Vig. That situation is going to play out over the next night or two.

Iceguy is LITERALLY arguing to remove someone because LYLO. GTFO now!

vote IceGuy

[Ectomancer]

VOTE: boring

boring is town...I would rather no lynch.

[Ectomancer]

I ask because you have only mentioned IceGuy twice all game:

IceGuy - I don't really get many vibes from him of either alignment. I don't really see why there are votes against him.

Also, vig (if you exist) don't shoot ice. I doubt you would solely based on transcend's opinion but I'm just saying that it's probably best to wait until we have more information and reads before killing someone. Ice is definitely someone we can look into on day 2 though.

This seems pretty odd given Ice has been one of the more talked about players so far.

This statement should be brought up again later. I agree 100%.

[Ectomancer]

I'm town.

Town:
Luca
Yuria
Fish
Fitz
Transcend
boring

Scum:
Deas
Ecto
kelbris
sheep

Null:
mutant
Rem

This isn't good enough IceGuy. You need to leave detailed instructions on how to handle the claim/counter-claim, what we should do on a no-kill morning, and what we should do otherwise and include 2 lynch targets in case one of them dies the night before.

What I'm asking you is very important. Please read my instructions word for word so that you know exactly what it is that I am asking and telling you. Then do well and hurry!

[Ectomancer]

was trying to be night kill bait.

which leads to the next question

how did you know there was a jailkeeper?

He claimed Innocent Chile first. It was a silly CC by Yuria.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto, do you have an opinion on DeasVail?

Let me answer it tangentially.

First let me get out of the way that I think Luca, Transcend, and Boring are town.

Now Boring made the statement that if her read on Transcend were correct that there were no scum wagons yesterday. I have Boring and Transcend on my town list and so I am going to passively agree and next ask the question, what scum behavior leads to that outcome?

We can have some active scumbag driving wagons.

But we came to near the deadline didn't we? That could indicate a general unwillingness of the town to lynch but I don't believe that is the feeling around here.

So the other way seems to match the pattern. Scum sits back and let's the town form wagons on town. If they are lucky enough for that to happen and sometimes all it takes is a slight nudge, then they can sit back non-committal to those mis-lynches and park their vote somewhere safe. Maybe even on their scum buddy who hasn't gotten any real pressure anyhow.

One of those descriptions are fairly accurate to Deas. I realize I haven't said how a town Deas would act either. So I'll just say different. A town Deas would act different.

[Ectomancer]

@Luca - I am going to hammer Deas. Just a couple more votes.

Mutant self-analysis cracking me up but he is town.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto - I don't understand why you're holding out to be the hammer for Deas. It's an abrupt change from your D1 MO. Why not just vote, and then try to rally more votes?

Because at that position I can either drive the train forward or apply the brakes. It sort of depends upon how it arrives at that junction. It puts me in a stronger position of control than kick starting a wagon and rallying the troops. That's sufficient for D1, but not really optimal for D2.

[Ectomancer]

Also,

VOTE: Ectomancer

@Ecto - I don't understand why you're holding out to be the hammer for Deas. It's an abrupt change from your D1 MO. Why not just vote, and then try to rally more votes?

Because at that position I can either drive the train forward or apply the brakes. It sort of depends upon how it arrives at that junction. It puts me in a stronger position of control than kick starting a wagon and rallying the troops. That's sufficient for D1, but not really optimal for D2.

What happens if I never get to L-1?

Then you will neither be led to nor saved from the hangman's noose by me.

Why this change in MO?

In the military, if you have two guys to do a job, one of them does the job and the other one supervises. Why? Because the guy doing the job is down in the trenches with a narrowed focus. The other guy can keep his eye on the big picture and make certain that the job is done safely and properly.

Now I realize that I didn't ask for the privilege and you might express your displeasure at my creation and assumption of what is essentially a power role (a no controversy town hammer). And even assuming that it would be a no controversy hammer is controversial without a confirmed town status (they would take over the hammer role if that were to occur).

But the fact is that I get emotional when first person in the discussion and that hampers my objectivity.

So this is the role I intend to play. I'll ignore any votes on me and in fact won't even acknowledge that they are there. I won't claim and won't give an analysis until I am ready, even if pressured with an L-1. Said L-1 would be scum pressure anyhow as we have game deadlines and I would certainly be obligated to deliver it be then. Until said analysis I'll simply be guiding the conversation onto interesting paths without becoming one of the direct participants.

[Ectomancer]

@Ecto: that's an interesting way to play. With the obvious drawback (for others) of making you hard to read. Is it a style you've used before?

No. In a meta reference in mafia or general discussion I made a comeback thread titled "I was 39" or something like that. Maybe that's the right one. Anyhow I'm 49 now. The site is full of completed games with me ages 39-44 or so. I've aged and come back and stated there that I'm wondering how my play will have changed. Well one of the things that I've come to recognize about myself is that I do tend to become emotional in the right direction, but with way to heavy a hand on the throttle. This is one way I want to try to see how effective it is for me in giving good and proper analysis.
This is good town meta too. Odds are that I will receive a town role more often than I will receive a scum role while playing on this site. My intentions are to improve my analysis as town. The strategy I am using is based in sound psychological logic. Get my emotions back out of the way because I know me and I know they blind me.

I don't mind prods on how I might make the position more palatable to you (collective plural). But because I've stated my purpose behind this path if someone pokes at me I will just ignore it. Unemotionally and without knowing who might do it; I would feel you more likely to be scum if you did try to stir an emotional response from me. In LYLO this might result in you being more likely to be lynched. Town or scum, that isn't a winning strategy for you.

[Ectomancer]

And I'd like input on my observation that Fitz is only putting in self-defence effort, as opposed to game-solving effort. Isn't that ultimately the behavior we look for in scum?

That is exactly the type of behavior that warrants investigation. Bearing in mind that it is too late for Fitz to alter that behavior once called out. So analyze away on Boring's theory, but this is the cut-off point for supporting references.

[Ectomancer]

I don't know what to fucking do with Kelbris. He's kind of adorable, so I don't want him to be scum, but he could totally be scum, but if he flipped town, that's like zero information, except maybe for the wagon analysis.

Why are you using the information gained from a lynch as a factor. Shouldn’t the priority be lynching scum, regardless of the information obtained?

We all know DeasVail's statement to be true. We also know that its application in this context as a response to Boring's statement could be a scummy misconstrual of her intent. Clearly Boring hearts Kelbris but brain is in charge. In other words, a conflicted opinion and yet still a null. Even if you decide to settle the question it doesn't give good information if Kelbris ends up town. And then the unspoken part would be "and so other wagons" blah blah blah. Boring is scum hunting on a greater level. But to nitpick her Kelbris opinion as if it exists in isolation didn't strike a good chord.
It is also a quotable "I'm trying so hard to be helpful town" statement.

[Ectomancer]

I don't think it's necessarily scummy from boring, but I'm interested in the response to my question.

Oddly enough, I actually get the impression that your post is a scummy misconstrual of

my

intent, considering that I'm pressuring boring, but didn't assign any value judgements to her post. However, you take it beyond that and create this story about how I'm misconstruing her intent.

While I generally favor this response, I think Boring is concise in the following statement about exactly why I suggested the interpretation of your comment that I did.

I don't know what to fucking do with Kelbris. He's kind of adorable, so I don't want him to be scum, but he could totally be scum, but if he flipped town, that's like zero information, except maybe for the wagon analysis.

Why are you using the information gained from a lynch as a factor. Shouldn’t the priority be lynching scum, regardless of the information obtained?

That seems like an odd thing to single out of my run-on sentence, but okay.

I think my thought at the time was that I'd feel bad if I pursued him and he flipped town because I like him in this game, and so he'd be gone, and I see no advantage right now from him being confirmed town post-mortem. And in general, if I have a choose between relatively equal scum-spects, then I lean toward the one whose flip will give me the best chance of figuring out the game, unless one of them was crazy-disruptive. How can information gained

not

be at least a tertiary factor?

[Ectomancer]

Yuria

Ectomancer - Probably one of the people I blame most for the loss of IceGuy. That being said, since Ecto was putting pressure on Ice from the RVS period, I don't think they are scum. I'm okay with Ecto's current stance of not placing votes on people they think are scum unless it is a hammer vote; perhaps they are doing this in acknowledgement of their mistake with IceGuy? In post 547 they said the following: "If IceGuy flips scum, boring is town and Yuria is scum." Since we know that both IceGuy and Yuria are town, perhaps their read on boring is also opposite to what they suggested here? In conclusion, I'm leaning town for Ectomancer but I do not trust them.

You've just shaken my confidence. Not enough to slide my needle on Boring, but it was a cold splash of water in the face. There were 3 points to that statement and 2 of them being wrong just made me that much more certain that the 3rd point (Boring is town) was correct.

[Ectomancer]

Yuria

Ectomancer - Probably one of the people I blame most for the loss of IceGuy. That being said, since Ecto was putting pressure on Ice from the RVS period, I don't think they are scum. I'm okay with Ecto's current stance of not placing votes on people they think are scum unless it is a hammer vote; perhaps they are doing this in acknowledgement of their mistake with IceGuy? In post 547 they said the following: "If IceGuy flips scum, boring is town and Yuria is scum." Since we know that both IceGuy and Yuria are town, perhaps their read on boring is also opposite to what they suggested here? In conclusion, I'm leaning town for Ectomancer but I do not trust them.

You've just shaken my confidence. Not enough to slide my needle on Boring, but it was a cold splash of water in the face. There were 3 points to that statement and 2 of them being wrong just made me that much more certain that the 3rd point (Boring is town) was correct.

I've read this like 3 times, and I'm still not sure what you're saying. I know the statement wasn't directed to me, but it seems like you've made a conclusion, and I can't tell what it is.

Umm, more like I came to an opposite conclusion. I had you down as town. But Mutant rightly pointed out that the reason for that conclusion was flawed. You see my statement said that if Ice were scum, Yuria would be scum and you would be town. But Ice flipped town and so did Yuria. So logically if you switch the signs on the equation (+ = town and - = scum) then a - Ice becomes a + Ice, a - Yuria becomes a + Yuria, and a + Boring becomes a - Boring. The equation says that you are scum.

But my ego decided that would be me being 100% wrong. It didn't like that. So even though it really is pretty much a logical equation statement my brain decided that it could appease my ego by simply ignoring that it was an equation and consider it as 3 separate parts. So now when Ice and Yuria flip opposite we still have one more shot at being right with Boring! I could be right .333 and that's a Major League Baseball winning hit percentage right there! And, wait for it. Since I was wrong twice that makes it even MORE likely that I am right about Boring! How about that Ego?? High five!!

Okay, so why am I not stoked and voting Boring now? Well I would if that equation were to come along with a proof. But it doesn't and I know it doesn't because I wrote it. That means I know that it isn't even an equation. It is bravado and tissue paper wrapped around what is mostly low to mid grade shit talk.

That's why I'm sitting over here. So I can see things like that and recognize it for what it is. It is at least maybe one positive indication that I can get better at this.

[Ectomancer]

I'm interested to know what about my 974 you disagree with so much as it was mainly showing Fitz up for not actually reading the thread properly.

Your points about him not paying attention / not reading I feel would have been better as points about him not responding in the way you would like him to. I think his posts do reflect he has been paying attention it's just he didn't reply in too valid a way of the main points you were after.

This is very vague and gives the impression you didn't read the post too closely yourself.

Parts such as:

"

And I do not recall seeing anything in your post this day maligning DV for his sheep vote other than it being pointless and the timing of it...or anything wrt boring.

"

and

"

How did your level of scumhunting work out for you D1? Are you tr'ing boring now? If so...why? If not...why hold Deavail's D1 boring voting (in conjunction w/ you) against him? Are they partners?

"

Clearly displayed he wasn't reading properly - the Boring thing in particular I had actually answered him already earlier in the day.

Highlighting this argument against Fitz, e.g. "Scum is more likely to phone it in". We get lazy town too but it has a certain flavor.

[Ectomancer]

i could've sworn someone else voted you and he voted you with them

I haven't voted Fitz but I've been quite anti-Fitz. I still am.

@UCV - I don't care about other games. I care about this one.

@Mutant - OMFGMYEYESPLEASESPARETHEM

[Ectomancer]

My impression of UCV is they're lynchbait. The lack of responses could be due to being in too many games. Is their response rate to questions AI for them?

According to Luca, avoiding questions is something UCV does when scum aligned. Besides, if UCV has the time to make a huge post trying to call me out as scum by analysing my posts then he sure as hell has time to answer a single question here or there.

@Mutant - OMFGMYEYESPLEASESPARETHEM

I don't understand why people have problems with walls when they are structured neatly. Would you rather I didn't contribute so much? Or would you prefer if I split my analysis up into several consecutive posts so you don't feel like you are reading so much? Either way, just deal with it.

Walls of text are scummy and you aren't scum. Fly town. Only my suspicion is you don't even get how you can improve. You don't tell people to "just deal with it". You figure out how to make your play easier on town players. So do it.

[Ectomancer]

How are walls scummy? I have a lot of things I want to say and convey and hence I am going to. I’m not going to hide away my thoughts and opinions just because you don’t feel like reading.

Also UCV did you even read my post properly and actually look at the posts I was referring to with each point? Obviously not since you wouldn’t be denying the existence of questions. Furthermore, I asked additional questions in that post which yet again you are ignoring.

Shh. Come back when you are willing to listen to constructive criticism.

[Ectomancer]

How are walls scummy? I have a lot of things I want to say and convey and hence I am going to. I’m not going to hide away my thoughts and opinions just because you don’t feel like reading.

Also UCV did you even read my post properly and actually look at the posts I was referring to with each point? Obviously not since you wouldn’t be denying the existence of questions. Furthermore, I asked additional questions in that post which yet again you are ignoring.

Shh. Come back when you are willing to listen to constructive criticism.

What is your criticism here, that I shouldn’t share my thoughts and opinions? You haven’t actually given anything constructive here; you literally just stated that my post apparently made your eyes bleed. Constructive would imply you offered a solution to a problem you have identified which you have not. Besides, why should I change the way I play based on what one person says? If you don’t like reading through a lot of text then that is your problem and not mine. I also can’t help but notice many walls have been posted throughout this game yet only now you decide to criticise it?

Shh. I don't fit square concepts into round holes. All you are doing is demonstrating your refusal to reduce the noise level. You make a lot of noise. A. LOT. OF. NOISE. Worse, you refuse to even consider that it could be a problem and proudly proclaim your refusal as though it were admirable. You're getting all offended and you can't even fathom how you might be wrong. It would take too much of the space in this game to EXPLAIN this concept to you so that you might get it. Why? Because you can't even imagine that you might be a problem!