Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Why is effect alignment indicative for you mutant?

[Luca Blight]

@Mutant

- my point (and reason for voting you) wasn't so much the fact you were looking helpful, but the fact you concluded that helpful-looking post by saying we should lynch whoever is least useful. You can see how this seems a little contrived?

And yes, scum do try to look useful - because by not being so they will be suspected. The key word here is try: as Town you are naturally curious and motivated to find out who the scum are, but as scum this has to be faked to some degree.

To be fair your tone reads pretty Town which is one of the reasons I switched my vote, but I don't think your post was useful - what has it achieved exactly?

[mutantdevle]

@Mutant

- my point (and reason for voting you) wasn't so much the fact you were looking helpful, but the fact you concluded that helpful-looking post by saying we should lynch whoever is least useful. You can see how this seems a little contrived?

And yes, scum do try to look useful - because by not being so they will be suspected. The key word here is try: as Town you are naturally curious and motivated to find out who the scum are, but as scum this has to be faked to some degree.

To be fair your tone reads pretty Town which is one of the reasons I switched my vote, but I don't think your post was useful - what has it achieved exactly?

Yes I can see how my post was contrived and appearing to raise myself up. Looking helpful wasn't something I considered when writing that post though and rather I use my reads to both offer my thoughts on current situations (if needed) and to be used as a record of my thoughts. If at any point during the game I die, I encourage people to look back at my reads (and other posts) to see what my opinion would have been. I like to think that players opinions mean more when they are dead (or rather confirmed town) and as such I want my opinions known for if / when I die.

[IceGuy]

He says we should lynch whoever seems least useful at the end of a long pointless early reads list which seems designed to

look

useful.

Not only does this seem contrived, it's also a terrible strategy - scum have more motivation than Town to look as though they are useful for their very survival is of most importance to them.

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words before I did.

A full reads list on page 3? Are you serious? That's completely useless to town, but is designed to look useful.

@Mutant: Could you point me to a (completed) game of yours on another site?

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

I'm skeptical of people who have strong reads early in the game. By that time, there isn't really enough information you can base serious reads on - that's why RVS is a thing.

Calling people scum seriously that early in the game allows you to backtrack later with no consequences (nobody expects you to stick with your read from page 3), but if there's a serious wagon on the same person later on you look towny for not hopping too much, even if they flip town (oops!)

So if somebody starts two serious wagons by post #30, my alarm bells start ringing.

IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.

Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for '

finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum

', or could a Townie also do such?

I think it's a scummy thing to do, but I don't think only scum does it.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

@Mod: Replace me.

[mutantdevle]

@Mutant: Could you point me to a (completed) game of yours on another site?

Certainly.

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt ... =40169&p=3
Post #72. My first post of the game and also contains a read. I think that day 1 of that game was only 24 hours and it started whilst I was asleep which is why I was so late to comment.
I was town in this game. I correctly predicted who the cop was and town won in the end with whilst only losing 3 people who were town aligned.

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt ... =39942&p=3
This was an earlier game. Again I came in fairly late at post #55 with my first post also being a scum read.
I was also town here and shot night 2. Later during day 3 the mod got bored and quit :/

https://forums.everybodyedits.com/viewt ... 07#p680507
This is my most recent game. I had a few more posts before giving my scum reads this time but it was still on page 3 and post #51 that I posted them.
I was scum for this game. My fate was that I was modkilled for inactivity. I stopped playing because the mod accidentally posted the names of the scum when they posted someones role card. Even though the mod fixed that issue my post afterwards alluded to have seen it so I couldn't play due to meta shit. Overall the mod in that game was complete shit and decided to end it with a tie when there was 1 town and 1 scum left...

If you isolate my posts you could scroll through each game and find I make those reads roughly once every mafia day. But as days here are 2 weeks rather than 3 days I reckon I may post 2-3 every mafia day.

[Transcend]

oh my GOD

i remember everybodyedits

that site was the bomb

[IceGuy]

Looks like you do this as both alignments. I therefore consider this a nulltell for you.

[mutantdevle]

Exactly.

[havingfitz]

I don't feel like individually addressing mutant and Luca's suspicions towards me point by point but since they seem to be along the same lines I will say this:

- imo it's not the worst thing in the world for an IC to claim right out of the gates. I kind of lump them with millers in that regard. So Transcend's claim, if true, wasn't horrible.
- if I were an IC I would not claim until I was on the verge of being mislynched.
- if an IC did see the need to claim...I would expect them to have the mod confirm the claim.
- I really dislike when town (assuming Transcend is town) claims a PR that they are not.
- anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.
- Transcend, in my estimation, is a bit of a wildcard and sometimes does things I might not necessarily say or due...so when he mentioned the mod had referred to the role as innocent chile (which I had not recalled) I could absolutely see a joke claim coming from town Transcend. Hence the unvote.
- My current read on Transcend is a town lean. His Innocent Chile lol claim could have been from either alignment so I'm just going to ignore it.
- I think Luca's push/vote on me is weak and I was considering a vote on himn...but I'm not sure I like the consistency of his wagon so I'm not going to vote him at this time.

I want to look over a few players who have my attention before deciding where to vote.

[davesaz]

Luca Blight(3) - IceGuy, Lil Uzi Vert, Transcend
DeasVail(2) - sheepsaysmeep, Elmo TeH AzN
IceGuy(3) - Ectomancer, Fishythefish, DeasVail
Fishythefish(1) - Yuria
havingfitz(1) - Luca Blight

not voting (3) - mutantdevle, kelbris, havingfitz

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
(expired on 2017-11-12 15:00:00)

LUV requested replacement

Note : VC corrected 11/03

[IceGuy]

- anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.

Why did you tell him to let the mod confirm it, then?

[havingfitz]

What does a scenario where fakeclaiming town causes a real town pr to claim (the part you're quoting me on) have to do with a claimed IC getting mod confirmation?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

What does a scenario where fakeclaiming town causes a real town pr to claim (the part you're quoting me on) have to do with a claimed IC getting mod confirmation?

Mod isnt going to confirm the IC as they have already stated

[mutantdevle]

Can the IC get confirmed by just posting on the thread? I thought they had to send a PM.

(Also just saying the PM system on this site is bs).

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.

Side Note:
VOTE: Mutant

Who gives reads 2 Pages into a game and less then 70 posts into a game. If you were trying to generate conversation good. But come on. They were pointless. D2 or even a late D1 I can see reads.
The PM System is fine.

[IceGuy]

What does a scenario where fakeclaiming town causes a real town pr to claim (the part you're quoting me on) have to do with a claimed IC getting mod confirmation?

If there's a real IC, this player might counterclaim or get the mod to confirm.

Side Note:
VOTE: Mutant

Who gives reads 2 Pages into a game and less then 70 posts into a game. If you were trying to generate conversation good. But come on. They were pointless. D2 or even a late D1 I can see reads.
The PM System is fine.

He linked me two town games and one scum game on another site where he did the same thing. Why do you think it's alignment-indicative?

[mutantdevle]

^^

Who gives reads 2 Pages into a game and less then 70 posts into a game. If you were trying to generate conversation good. But come on. They were pointless. D2 or even a late D1 I can see reads.
The PM System is fine.

I do. I'm used to giving reads after the 50th post because the forum I used previously had 72 hour day phases in most instances. Also from the forum I come from the PM system is basically a private thread between the recipients. Most other forums I have used also have a similar PM method. It's so much neater than how this forum is laid out with it's 1 off messages that you have to Re: every time. Kinda like email. It's not something I'd leave this site over though

[Fishythefish]

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

I'm skeptical of people who have strong reads early in the game. By that time, there isn't really enough information you can base serious reads on - that's why RVS is a thing.

Calling people scum seriously that early in the game allows you to backtrack later with no consequences (nobody expects you to stick with your read from page 3), but if there's a serious wagon on the same person later on you look towny for not hopping too much, even if they flip town (oops!)

So if somebody starts two serious wagons by post #30, my alarm bells start ringing.

If Ectomancer wants to "look towny for not hopping too much" on these early wagons, surely leaving Transcend's wagon would undermine that? For this to make sense, I think Ectomancer would have to be able to use their early vote on Transcend as cover for a vote later. And they pretty clearly couldn't.

Side Note:
VOTE: Mutant

Who gives reads 2 Pages into a game and less then 70 posts into a game. If you were trying to generate conversation good. But come on. They were pointless. D2 or even a late D1 I can see reads.

Is giving these reads scummy as well as pointless?

I just remembered this game exists

VOTE: fishy

Any reason?

what are your reads rn?

Beyond my vote, no others I think are worth talking about right now.

[Transcend]

Aite Elmo can die

[Luca Blight]

I don't feel like individually addressing mutant and Luca's suspicions towards me point by point but since they seem to be along the same lines I will say this:

- imo it's not the worst thing in the world for an IC to claim right out of the gates. I kind of lump them with millers in that regard. So Transcend's claim, if true, wasn't horrible.
- if I were an IC I would not claim until I was on the verge of being mislynched.
- if an IC did see the need to claim...I would expect them to have the mod confirm the claim.
- I really dislike when town (assuming Transcend is town) claims a PR that they are not.
- anything that introduces the possibility of a genuine town PR CC'ing and therefore outing themself is bad bad bad. Hence my vote on Transcend.

If it's not so bad for an IC to claim straight away, why were you so annoyed Transcend might have caused a potential real IC to claim?

The rest is just repetition of what you've already said.

- Transcend, in my estimation, is a bit of a wildcard and sometimes does things I might not necessarily say or due...so when he mentioned the mod had referred to the role as innocent chile (which I had not recalled) I could absolutely see a joke claim coming from town Transcend. Hence the unvote.
- My current read on Transcend is a town lean. His Innocent Chile lol claim could have been from either alignment so I'm just going to ignore it.

So why the hell did you vote Transcend?

- I think Luca's push/vote on me is weak and I was considering a vote on himn...but I'm not sure I like the consistency of his wagon so I'm not going to vote him at this time.

I want to look over a few players who have my attention before deciding where to vote.

Consistency of my wagon? What are you talking about?

I gave multiple reasons I don't like your play so far and you've ignored pretty much all of it, so it's a bit 'weak' of you to call my push weak.

[Luca Blight]

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.

I agree as a general point, but so early in the game?

Obviously Mafia are very likely to look into previous setups as they choose the powers, but as a Townie myself it didn't even cross my mind to check, and nor would it until something of relevance to the setup occurred.

Perhaps that's just me though.

[Luca Blight]

Just to be clear, I want Fitz to answer the following

:

With regards to looking so thoroughly into the setup so early on, do you have any meta that shows this is something you do as Town?

You don't think Transcend's fake claim was AI indicative and are in fact townreading him, so why would you vote him?

What compelled you to unvote in 43? I don't want a general reason, I want to know why specifically you unvoted here and not in your previous 31?

What do you mean by the '

consistency of my wagon

', and why is that a reason to not vote me?

Other general points that aren't necessarily questions:

I don't like how you had time to make a long post on setup spec and excuse making but did not interact with anyone or show any hint that you're trying to find scum.

I don't like how self-concious you seem - you feel the need to explain your RVS vote even though no-one mentioned it, you felt the need to explain your Transcend vote and your position on Transcend so everyone knows you might unvote soon. You were worried your 31 might be perceived as rolefishing.

I don't like your conflicted view of being annoyed that the IC might be drawn out while also saying an early IC claim isn't bad. Also how you said it's a 'shame' Transcend's claim wasn't real - it doesn't match up, and makes your subsequent claim of 'annoyance' seem fake.

I don't like how you say you were thinking of voting me but then don't vote me - what is the purpose of this exactly? A veiled threat to say 'if you keep this up I will vote you?' A way of throwing a bit of shade while avoiding direct conflict?

[kelbris]

Allow me to explain why I didn't mention/vote for fitz in my 2nd post. I was preparing to go out and therefore had not read through any posts other then those relevant to the 2 biggest wagons at that time. As for why I didn't vote for fitz during my 3rd post, I was busy and didn't think to vote at that point in time.
My opinion on fitz has changed however, he is no longer a clear scum read on my part, primarily due to post #109. DeasVail has joined him on my neutral list because I have seen nothing all too scummy. HOWEVER...

VOTE: Ectomancer
I REALLY dislike his pushing of the IceGuy wagon, considering at the point in time when Ecto made post #38, IceGuy had not done anything all too scummy (an RVS vote and a bit of advice to Transcend not to get the mod to reveal hardly seem scummy).

[Transcend]

Not Ecto