Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[sheepsaysmeep]

prodge
will read this thread when i have time later today

[Luca Blight]

I'm all the more interested to hear Fitz' observations given he only seems to post about things that are directly related to him.

[sheepsaysmeep]

Hey, so here are my reads that nobody asked for:

Yuria - Slightly scummy in my opinion. They only have 2 posts and they avoided a question with another question. Whilst this stuff isn't really a scum tell overall they don't seem that useful to the town so I would be up for lynching them since we don't know much day 1.
Ectomancer - Whilst I'm split on the tell of their tactic to force wagons on us, they seem fairly reasonable and like someone who is willing to at least contribute a lot. So at the moment, I think they are worth keeping around.
IceGuy - I don't really get many vibes from him of either alignment. I don't really see why there are votes against him.
DeasVail - He seems very friendly. To the point where I would derp clear him as town. Though this is mafia, so a nice guy approach might just be a facade.
Transcend - His posts consist of a whole lot of nothing and some of them are somewhat misleading. The only credit I could give them right now is that they are active. But the slight scumminess in the lack of sense that they are writing means I would be comfortable lynching them at this stage.
Fishythefish - I trust the fishy for now. I would like to see him post a little more though as I feel like he has more to offer than what we've seen so far.
Elmo TeH AzN - Her posts are short and brief which isn't too useful. I don't think there is anything scummy about her, but due to her lack of meaningful contribution, I would be willing to lynch them day 1.
Luca Blight - Another player that seems reasonable in what they are saying. I feel like he has a way of seeing wider logic which I think is useful late game.
kelbris - I like his logic and how he offers his opinion into the discussion. He is a seemingly useful player that I would not be comfortable lynching day 1.
sheepsaysmeep - He seems rather unnoticeable to me. Before isolating his posts I only thought he had 1. Other than that they seem okay though.
havingfitz - I don't like how he passively suggested Transcend revealed being the IC so early in the game. Pretty scummy if you ask me. Whether or not they are indeed mafia I think this kind of bad thinking wouldn't be helpful to town in the long run so I'd be willing to lynch them day 1. Despite this, they do seem like they would be helpful.
Lil Uzi Vert - He has not been helpful in anyway whatsoever. Hist posts are literally just an introduction, votes, and a single emoji. Based on how I vote on day 1 lynches, which if you haven't noticed is more based on usefulness than it is scum tells, he is the person I would be most prepared to lynch.

mutantdevle - He seems like an utter noob which can get annoying. Not sure what to make of this guy.

davesaz - They haven't spoken in a long time. I'd like to see them speak more.




Btw my attitude towards day 1 lynches is, since we don't know much, I prefer to lynch based on how useful I think the players will be. The only time I really move away from this is if either someone makes a proper slip and we can actually be fairly confident that they are actually scum or the pressures of time means that I'd have to vote for somone I am not really okay with lynching but still think it is worth losing them in order to not end the day in a no lynch.

Yuria - you say the two posts are slightly scummy because they avoided answering a question, but then you say that's not a question?
also about the yuria and elmo part; idk if anyone else has said this yet but d1 you lynch on scumminess not unhelpfulness

[sheepsaysmeep]

that's not a scumtell* not that's not a question whawt am i doing

[Yuria]

Nice job dodging the question

yeah, I have a reason. Not gonna push it until I've seen more from them, but it wasn't just random.

I don't understand why you feel you'd have anything to cause you to hold out on such a trivial read at this point in the game.

Speak for yourself. I wanted to interact with fishy in a way other than just asking "shouldn't you be voting iceguy?" so I wouldn't put him on the defensive immediately and give him an excuse to join the wagon. It's hard for me to tell whether he actually forgot to vote or not but I'm not willing to write it off just yet.

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

If Ectomancer wants to "look towny for not hopping too much" on these early wagons, surely leaving Transcend's wagon would undermine that? For this to make sense, I think Ectomancer would have to be able to use their early vote on Transcend as cover for a vote later. And they pretty clearly couldn't.

Can you explain what's alignment indicative for iceguy about this line of questioning? These posts feel like they're reading too much into ecto's actions too much to defend them for no reason.

VOTE: Elmo
She really needs to explain her vote and her previous excuses/setup talk pinged me. I still like my fishy vote explaining why she wants to lynch based on usefulness when criticizing mutant for the same thing is more important rn.

also iceguy's wagon is more understandable on a reread. I'm still mulling over whether he's worth voting or not.

(that's l-2 if y'all aren't paying attention)

[Yuria]

ebwop: I still like my fishy vote

but her

explaining why she wants to lynch based on usefulness when criticizing mutant for the same thing is more important rn.

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

Why am I scummy to you? Has my discussion with Luca left you with questions towards me?

You call me "pretty scummy" in your Post 64. In the same post you say you "don't think there is anything scummy about" Elmo.

And then despite having a variety of scum and usefulness reads detailed in 64, you do not see fit to vote anyone until after they have placed a vote on you.

Why is it better to vote someone you don't find very scummy over someone you find "pretty scummy?"

You seem to hold, what I think is an inconsistent application of, usefulness in higher regard than what you perceive as scummy. You also seem a bit of a try hard.

Your first point is correct to an extent. Whilst personally I don't have questions for you, your discussion with Luca has left me trusting Luca more and trusting you less. I just feel that Luca's push on you has overall been far better than your responses.

At that point, I did not consider there to be much that is scummy about Elmo. My opinion has since changed and I am now more suspicious of her than I previously was.

My reads were not targetting anyone in particular, they were simply my first impressions of everyone within the game and included who I would or wouldn't be prepared to lynch day 1. I did not feel the need to vote. There was no one who really stood out as the best option at that point in time. I'm also not used to votes being thrown around so much. On the forum I've migrated from votes are rarer and far more serious. And my vote on Elmo had nothing to do with how they voted for me. My preferred lynch today would honestly be you. And I was about to vote for you when I saw that all of a sudden there wasn't much support for you and main wagon had switched to Elmo. And honestly, I don't see how me voting for Elmo could be considered suspicious in any way since I had already stated I would be prepared to vote for her.

My suspicion of Elmo has since risen since my reads post for several reasons. Her posts continue to be trivial and fail to contribute much. She is yet to post her reads that she said she would. And now she has gained more support to be lynched so why not vote for her? I don't really get what people are saying about her being hypocritical because she doesn't exactly criticise me for wanting to lynch unuseful people, but if one of the people I don't mind lynching is gaining support to be lynched then I have no reason not to jump on that wagon.

Finally, usefulness is only a strong factor for me on day 1. Once we have leads on things, scumminess becomes more of a priority. Usefulness is just what I think is the best thing to go on when there are not many strong candidates for the lynch. So if we are running stale on any future days, I will refer back to lynching based on usefulness.

Yuria - you say the two posts are slightly scummy because they avoided answering a question, but then you say that's not a question?
also about the yuria and elmo part; idk if anyone else has said this yet but d1 you lynch on scumminess not unhelpfulness

Not answering a question isn't always scummy but in my opinion, there are very few occasions in which not answering a question is acceptable. There is literally no reason not to answer it. I consider that to be slightly scummy in comparison. When I refer to someone as scummy I'm not saying I genuinely believe they are scum. Just that their actions are questionable and not something I appreciate any town aligned member doing.

And unhelpfulness is a good reason to lynch someone when you don't have any scum tells. If you have no reason to believe anyone is definitely scum then the safest option is to lynch someone in isn't helpful. That way, if you do accidentally lynch a townie, you will be doing the least amount of damage to the town as possible.

[Transcend]

Guys there's no need to wall

You can convey your points across very easily in just one or two lines

[IceGuy]

I do not like how fast Elmo's wagon is coming together. Now to figure out whether Elmo is actually town, and who's in it for the mislynch.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

In 103 Iceguy - Even Agrees that reads are somewhat overstated this early in the game also thats why there is a RVS.

I still Stand that the reads were worthless.

Looking at 119 Transcend with the "Aite Elmo can die" Wow great read there sunshine. No real reason just lets lynch me.

Luca - Not always true that Mafia will look at previous setups. Its mostly just one of those things.

. If he thinks mutants post was useless but not scum my, why vote for Mutant? Especially considering the issue has already been discussed and he’s already received “pressure” for it, so that can’t be the reason.

Im lazy with vote tags.

Luca right after with the insa vote bandwagon.

Also since Ive still avoided it.

Iceguy I don't believe its alignment indictive.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

Note the opportunistic vote

Right now Im comfoy where my vote lies. Transcend can get lynched. You all wanted me to vote and do XYZ Ill be honest. Ive been on vacation as of late.

[IceGuy]

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

Personally I found it to be fluff at best. Im going to contradict myself here I'm completely aware of this.

[Luca Blight]

Luca right after with the insa vote bandwagon.

Err, are you accusing me of something here?

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

Note the opportunistic vote

Right now Im comfoy where my vote lies. Transcend can get lynched. You all wanted me to vote and do XYZ Ill be honest. Ive been on vacation as of late.

Why is this an opportunistic vote but Yuria's vote in 155 isn't?

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

Personally I found it to be fluff at best. Im going to contradict myself here I'm completely aware of this.

Did you think Mutant's reads list was NAI at the time you made the vote, or after he provided meta for himself doing this as both alignments?

Is '

fluff

' something that is alignment-indicative for you?

[Transcend]

guys elmo

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Transcend - Come up with your own reasons and dont be a puppet.

Luca - Yes I see your vote as opportunistic.
155 is bad. But I see the vote. Makes sense from a point to get someone to respond and answer some questions. I dont get why you would quote someone else and just bring someone in at the end after someone makes vaild points about someone else.
Yes I think it was NAI but could also be scummy. I didn't look at the meta from another site. I wont admit that I did.
Fluff and walls normally are just filler to make someone look like they are doing something they aren't which in turn normally leads to scum

[Luca Blight]

This makes no sense - you say Yuria's vote wasn't opportunistic because she wanted you to answer questions, when that's basically a repeat of what my vote was - which you say is opportunistic?

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Im saying I over looked it given the circumstances is all.

[Luca Blight]

What circumstances?

[Transcend]

Elmo is scum

She is openly encouraging me to vote her

[Ectomancer]

Town reads so far:

Kelbris

, Transcend, Mutant
I want to say Ectomancer too but there’s a little more doubt there.

I’m also very torn on IceGuy right now.

I'm skeptical as to this Townread of Kelbris here.

Spoiler: Let's take a look at his posts

Hello everyone, let's have a great game.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep
everyone has their own way of saying hello, maybe dave's a Fat Albert fan.

I don't think IceGuy is bad tbh. Looking at his posts so far, we have an RVS post, one that is advising someone else to NOT get the mod to confirm their IC role (a good idea tbh, since that would make the IC an easy target for maf) and one (which I agree with) saying that others are basically using 2 posts for their reads, neither of which are scum-posts.

I don't know if Transcend has been IC before, but it is possible that IceGuy was telling him just in case, lots of posts does not equal experience as roles such as IC, not voting for them yet because of the IC claim, it might be accurate, then again, I have never been in a game with that role before so idk.

I don't have any other reads right now, so I am going to

UNVOTE:
for now.

I was voicing my opinion on the 2 main wagons in the game. People were voting Transcend because of his "IC" claim, and voting IceGuy because of his advice to not get the mod to reveal. So far, the only one I have any suspicion on is havingfitz because of his suggestion that Transcend should get the mod to confirm the IC claim D1, something which I believe does nothing but put a big target on the IC's back (unless there is a JK, but we don't know what the maf chose).

Post #1 - Rvs; NAI.

Post #2 - what I would call an unproductive post - it's early in the game and 'pressure' on the likes of Transcend and IceGuy is designed to create content. Defending IceGuy here does nothing but put a halt to that momentum, leaving the game back where it started; with nothing. I'm even more skeptical after Deas' point (which I agree with) in 39 where he acknowledges that such exaggeration of early posts in and around RVS is sometimes required - why then does he like this post by Kelbris?

Post #3 - Kelbris explains his #2 post. His point against Fitz is fair enough, but then why not mention it in post #2 and why not place a vote on Fitz/follow up his suspicion with questioning?

So if Deas could explain this one, that would be great.

This is good scum hunting right here.

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Go Luca!

And this one:

The mod cannot confirm me as innocent chile

I assumed a mispell...not lame humor.

Shame....you're one it would be nice to have confirmed.

VOTE: Transcend

You call it a 'shame' he's not genuinely claiming IC, but then later are annoyed that an IC could have potentially been outed:

Regardless...pretty clear there will be an IC in this game which makes Transcend's lol claim all the more annoying. Would have sucked if Transcend is town and his humor caused the real ~IC to claim. As it is...I think the ~IC should wait until he/she is on the verge of being lynched...if that ever happens. Same obviously for the other 2 PRs.

Beautiful.

hi
in what universe is hiding reason to vote someone town

When you don't want scum to know what you saw. You just want them to do it again but felt pressure enough to defend a previous post you made with a "with reason" backing it up.
Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

When you say "devoid of context" - do you think there's more context I should have added?

Devoid of context because you were making a general statement that didn't take into account the current state of play - the fact the game is still in its infancy which means wagon switches bear less significance.

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

Fair enough.

IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.

Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for '

finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum

', or could a Townie also do such?

Do you know why IceGuy is so scummy? Because my vote on him was, I think, the first vote of the game with a real, actual scumtell for a reason. But instead of addressing that reason he responds with (paraphrase):
"Are you really going to vote me seriously 2 posts into RVS?"
And that was followed by (paraphrase):
"Oh, he isn't serious about scumhunting" (in spite of being the first vote with a real reasoning) "he'll just lynch anybody"

lynch Iceguy

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.

I agree as a general point, but so early in the game?

Obviously Mafia are very likely to look into previous setups as they choose the powers, but as a Townie myself it didn't even cross my mind to check, and nor would it until something of relevance to the setup occurred.

Perhaps that's just me though.

Nope, that's me too.

Just to be clear, I want Fitz to answer the following

:

With regards to looking so thoroughly into the setup so early on, do you have any meta that shows this is something you do as Town?

You don't think Transcend's fake claim was AI indicative and are in fact townreading him, so why would you vote him?

What compelled you to unvote in 43? I don't want a general reason, I want to know why specifically you unvoted here and not in your previous 31?

What do you mean by the '

consistency of my wagon

', and why is that a reason to not vote me?

Other general points that aren't necessarily questions:

I don't like how you had time to make a long post on setup spec and excuse making but did not interact with anyone or show any hint that you're trying to find scum.

I don't like how self-concious you seem - you feel the need to explain your RVS vote even though no-one mentioned it, you felt the need to explain your Transcend vote and your position on Transcend so everyone knows you might unvote soon. You were worried your 31 might be perceived as rolefishing.

I don't like your conflicted view of being annoyed that the IC might be drawn out while also saying an early IC claim isn't bad. Also how you said it's a 'shame' Transcend's claim wasn't real - it doesn't match up, and makes your subsequent claim of 'annoyance' seem fake.

I don't like how you say you were thinking of voting me but then don't vote me - what is the purpose of this exactly? A veiled threat to say 'if you keep this up I will vote you?' A way of throwing a bit of shade while avoiding direct conflict?

/good stuff just keeps coming

Is giving these reads scummy as well as pointless?

Never said it was scummy.

You voted, and then criticised the big list of reads, so I rather assumed you thought the big list of reads was scummy. If not - why did you vote mutant?

I'm liking this Elmo wagon.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

mutantdevle is town.

I'm all the more interested to hear Fitz' observations given he only seems to post about things that are directly related to him.

I'm not a fan of havingfitz

I do not like how fast Elmo's wagon is coming together. Now to figure out whether Elmo is actually town, and who's in it for the mislynch.

Now that you know Yuria-scum is on it you need to show that you could sense scum suddenly on the wagon?

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

Oh but going for the lynch after all huh? Elmo - town equals IceGuy-scum.......so let's lynch IceGuy! Oh, but Elmo is equally as good.

[davesaz]

Elmo TeH AzN(4) - Luca Blight, Transcend, mutantdevle, Yuria
IceGuy(3) - Ectomancer, Fishythefish, DeasVail
mutantdevle(2) - Elmo TeH AzN, havingfitz
Luca Blight(1) - Viome
DeasVail(1) - sheepsaysmeep
Ectomancer(1) - kelbris
not voting (1) - IceGuy

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch
(expired on 2017-11-12 15:00:00)

Note: VC corrected 11/03

[Transcend]

Hey Ecto

Wanna L1 Elmo?

[Ectomancer]

unvote

vote: Elmo TeH AzN

Time for a claim.

Do not hammer and try to say you didn't know

[Transcend]

That was shockingly easy

[Yuria]

Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

um, im not sure what you're talking about, but i squaked cuz luca got to fishy before me, and in a way that makes interpreting whether he's actually doing the tell way harder. There's no real point in not being transparent about it; scum will do scum tells again if they're legit tells and none of y'all know me well enough to cater your play to me.