Open 699 - Pick your Poison - Town Win

[Transcend]

VOTE: elmo

night time bitches

[sheepsaysmeep]

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

mutantdevle is town.

what's town about that post?

[DeasVail]

VOTE: elmo

night time bitches

Strong suspicion of Transcend for not waiting for a claim, regardless of Elmo's alignment. You could use the argument that it's too ballsy for scum to do, but that is what a player like Transcend is going to bank on. Maybe it's pointless me saying this and I'll just get ignored, but it's worth trying at least.

[sheepsaysmeep]

he was already on the wagon lol

[sheepsaysmeep]

guys we have 9 days of discussion time
let's not lynch for at least 8 days tbh (mostly i want to read before eod)

[sheepsaysmeep]

Guys there's no need to wall

You can convey your points across very easily in just one or two lines

my best friend

[Transcend]

VOTE: elmo

night time bitches

Strong suspicion of Transcend for not waiting for a claim, regardless of Elmo's alignment. You could use the argument that it's too ballsy for scum to do, but that is what a player like Transcend is going to bank on. Maybe it's pointless me saying this and I'll just get ignored, but it's worth trying at least.

got bored

[Transcend]

Guys there's no need to wall

You can convey your points across very easily in just one or two lines

my best friend

/givs sheepie doggo badge of frenship

[Yuria]

@elmo: why is lynching someone making fluffy walls ok but when someone wanted to lynch you for not contributing enough not ok? do you want to policy lynching mutant or is he actually scummy?

also no claiming until someone intends to hammer..

[Fishythefish]

Quickhammering is bad. If there's a vig, they should take out anyone who quickhammers a townie.

This is mostly a prod dodge. I'll have a proper amount of time for this game tomorrow. What I'm thinking at the moment is:

1) Elmo looks like scum.
2) I'm still not happy with IceGuy's explanation of his early play, though RVS-based reads that no-one else is excited about are probably not usually very helpful.

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

If Ectomancer wants to "look towny for not hopping too much" on these early wagons, surely leaving Transcend's wagon would undermine that? For this to make sense, I think Ectomancer would have to be able to use their early vote on Transcend as cover for a vote later. And they pretty clearly couldn't.

Can you explain what's alignment indicative for iceguy about this line of questioning? These posts feel like they're reading too much into ecto's actions too much to defend them for no reason.

Sure. IceGuy said something that didn't sound true (I quote it inline in post 94 above). He said it in a context where he had motivation to call ecto scummy, as ecto had voted him. I wanted to work out whether:
- It made more sense than I thought, and was neutral for IG
- It didn't make sense, and was a weak excuse to vote his voter. You can argue about how much that speaks to IG's alignment, but weak excuses for OMGUS are at least worth following up.

[mutantdevle]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

[DeasVail]

he was already on the wagon lol

I assumed transcend was going for a reaction from Elmo. Unlikely to yield anything too useful imo, but I’ve always wondered if scum would ever try to fake a townslip in that situation.

[Transcend]

there's also a chance that i'm just memeing

[kelbris]

to answer the question asked in post #125, havingfitz essentially covered a lot of the reasons I had for suspecting him with some reasonable answers. He makes a very valid point regarding Transcend's initial claim and I agree with him on the fact that Transcend's claim could have caused the real IC to reveal themselves-something which is NOT good for the town (unless there is a JK).

[Transcend]

Lol

Ic legit has 0 reason to cc if they are

An unclear ic claim is not clear in any circumstance and yields no more power than any other player in the game

[Luca Blight]

It might be worth noting that Elmo has been online since being put on L-1.

Normally this isn't the sort of thing I comment on, but given scum have day chat and she has been asked to claim, it could be that she is seeking advice before responding.

[Luca Blight]

to answer the question asked in post #125, havingfitz essentially covered a lot of the reasons I had for suspecting him with some reasonable answers. He makes a very valid point regarding Transcend's initial claim and I agree with him on the fact that Transcend's claim could have caused the real IC to reveal themselves-something which is NOT good for the town (unless there is a JK).

Thanks for answering, but do you have anything relevant to say to the current game state?

[Luca Blight]

Quickhammering is bad. If there's a vig, they should take out anyone who quickhammers a townie.

Wait, didn't you suspect IceGuy for being a 'super helpful Townie'?

[havingfitz]

v/LA until Monday

[Luca Blight]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

[Ectomancer]

That was shockingly easy

It was the proper thing to do.

Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

um, im not sure what you're talking about, but i squaked cuz luca got to fishy before me, and in a way that makes interpreting whether he's actually doing the tell way harder. There's no real point in not being transparent about it; scum will do scum tells again if they're legit tells and none of y'all know me well enough to cater your play to me.

That's good explaining.

[Ectomancer]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

Funny. You don't seem to be on eggshells.

[sheepsaysmeep]

Spoiler:

We need two good trains today and Transcend has volunteered to be the engine for the first of them.

VOTE: Transcend

[
I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

If you're actually IC, don't do this.

He is quite clearly Inexperience Challenged. Now quit flapping your gums and jump on his wagon.

[
I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

If you're actually IC, don't do this.

He is quite clearly Inexperience Challenged. Now quit flapping your gums and jump on his wagon.

Why so hasty

There are two wagons today. Transcend and IceGuy and he wouldn't jump on his own wagon right? And I can't get both a Transcend and an Iceguy wagon going by myself, I'm going to need some help. So naturally I am going to petition the guy who wouldn't be on an Iceguy wagon to anchor this Transcend one for me.
We are starting to get some movement on Transcend though, so I am going to:

UNVOTE: Transcend

VOTE: Iceguy

Transcend kicks off the game with the "IC" claim (quoted due to "Chile") and havingfritz decides to cross foils with him. So it begins. I don't know the alignment of these two, but they were creating information and rope by which people might hang themselves.
I asked myself why Iceguy would state the super obvious to Transcend to not ask the mod to confirm the role claimed. Iceguy has been around, but Transcend has literally 10x the number of posts of either one of us. So I'm slapping Iceguy with an "I'm a super helpful townie" scum tell violation.

Are people seriously basing a scumread on two posts, one of which is RVS?

Building an elaborate multi-paragraph post where you break down every detail of what makes them scum is beautiful. Single post slip-ups where I can say "Ahah! I got you scum!" are even better and anecdotally are historically more accurate.

So yes, it is just that easy to post and get caught as scum in early game. You'll do better next time

It seems pretty usual to me that people exaggerate the significance of their thoughts early game in order to actually have something to talk about. Is that your experience too?

Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum.

But you keep saying these lynchable things.....like this

Town reads so far:

Kelbris

, Transcend, Mutant
I want to say Ectomancer too but there’s a little more doubt there.

I’m also very torn on IceGuy right now.

I'm skeptical as to this Townread of Kelbris here.

Spoiler: Let's take a look at his posts

Hello everyone, let's have a great game.

VOTE: sheepsaysmeep
everyone has their own way of saying hello, maybe dave's a Fat Albert fan.

I don't think IceGuy is bad tbh. Looking at his posts so far, we have an RVS post, one that is advising someone else to NOT get the mod to confirm their IC role (a good idea tbh, since that would make the IC an easy target for maf) and one (which I agree with) saying that others are basically using 2 posts for their reads, neither of which are scum-posts.

I don't know if Transcend has been IC before, but it is possible that IceGuy was telling him just in case, lots of posts does not equal experience as roles such as IC, not voting for them yet because of the IC claim, it might be accurate, then again, I have never been in a game with that role before so idk.

I don't have any other reads right now, so I am going to

UNVOTE:
for now.

I was voicing my opinion on the 2 main wagons in the game. People were voting Transcend because of his "IC" claim, and voting IceGuy because of his advice to not get the mod to reveal. So far, the only one I have any suspicion on is havingfitz because of his suggestion that Transcend should get the mod to confirm the IC claim D1, something which I believe does nothing but put a big target on the IC's back (unless there is a JK, but we don't know what the maf chose).

Post #1 - Rvs; NAI.

Post #2 - what I would call an unproductive post - it's early in the game and 'pressure' on the likes of Transcend and IceGuy is designed to create content. Defending IceGuy here does nothing but put a halt to that momentum, leaving the game back where it started; with nothing. I'm even more skeptical after Deas' point (which I agree with) in 39 where he acknowledges that such exaggeration of early posts in and around RVS is sometimes required - why then does he like this post by Kelbris?

Post #3 - Kelbris explains his #2 post. His point against Fitz is fair enough, but then why not mention it in post #2 and why not place a vote on Fitz/follow up his suspicion with questioning?

So if Deas could explain this one, that would be great.

This is good scum hunting right here.

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Go Luca!

And this one:

The mod cannot confirm me as innocent chile

I assumed a mispell...not lame humor.

Shame....you're one it would be nice to have confirmed.

VOTE: Transcend

You call it a 'shame' he's not genuinely claiming IC, but then later are annoyed that an IC could have potentially been outed:

Regardless...pretty clear there will be an IC in this game which makes Transcend's lol claim all the more annoying. Would have sucked if Transcend is town and his humor caused the real ~IC to claim. As it is...I think the ~IC should wait until he/she is on the verge of being lynched...if that ever happens. Same obviously for the other 2 PRs.

Beautiful.

hi
in what universe is hiding reason to vote someone town

When you don't want scum to know what you saw. You just want them to do it again but felt pressure enough to defend a previous post you made with a "with reason" backing it up.
Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

When you say "devoid of context" - do you think there's more context I should have added?

Devoid of context because you were making a general statement that didn't take into account the current state of play - the fact the game is still in its infancy which means wagon switches bear less significance.

No, I'm not implying that scum wouldn't wagon hop. IceGuy is saying specifically that "Ectomancer seems more intent on finding somebody to lynch, instead of finding scum." I don't think that fits well with Ectomancer's actions - hopping between two about equally sized wagons doesn't really look like going for any old lynch - so I want to hear more from IceGuy on why he thinks this.

Fair enough.

IceGuy did seem a bit on the defensive with that comment, so I would also like to hear him explain it.

Does IceGuy think Ecto is scum for '

finding somebody to lynch instead of finding scum

', or could a Townie also do such?

Do you know why IceGuy is so scummy? Because my vote on him was, I think, the first vote of the game with a real, actual scumtell for a reason. But instead of addressing that reason he responds with (paraphrase):
"Are you really going to vote me seriously 2 posts into RVS?"
And that was followed by (paraphrase):
"Oh, he isn't serious about scumhunting" (in spite of being the first vote with a real reasoning) "he'll just lynch anybody"

lynch Iceguy

Of the five completed ones I could find this was the layouts:

1 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons
2 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
3 - IC/2*Vig/Tracker & 3 mafia goons
4 - IC/2*Vig/1* Cop & 3 mafia goons
5 - IC/2*Vig/1*Cop & 3 mafia goons

I am wondering whether a Townie would look so thoroughly into the previous setups so early in the game, particularly given scum pick the powers.

Also Fitz's annoyance in this post about the potential IC being outed doesn't seem very sincere considering his relaxed tone in this post:

I HARDCLAIM INNOCENT CHILE

I believe you.
But can you ask the mod to confirm you are IC to remove all doubt?

VOTE: DeasVail

You genuinely thought Transcend was IC claiming here, yet you seemed completely cool with it.

Hate to bust it to you but as someone whos played this setup quite a few times it tells you nothing about alignment. Town and scum both would look at previous games for telling XY.
I can tell you why there has been so many cops and vigs but thats a null point.

I agree as a general point, but so early in the game?

Obviously Mafia are very likely to look into previous setups as they choose the powers, but as a Townie myself it didn't even cross my mind to check, and nor would it until something of relevance to the setup occurred.

Perhaps that's just me though.

Nope, that's me too.

Just to be clear, I want Fitz to answer the following

:

With regards to looking so thoroughly into the setup so early on, do you have any meta that shows this is something you do as Town?

You don't think Transcend's fake claim was AI indicative and are in fact townreading him, so why would you vote him?

What compelled you to unvote in 43? I don't want a general reason, I want to know why specifically you unvoted here and not in your previous 31?

What do you mean by the '

consistency of my wagon

', and why is that a reason to not vote me?

Other general points that aren't necessarily questions:

I don't like how you had time to make a long post on setup spec and excuse making but did not interact with anyone or show any hint that you're trying to find scum.

I don't like how self-concious you seem - you feel the need to explain your RVS vote even though no-one mentioned it, you felt the need to explain your Transcend vote and your position on Transcend so everyone knows you might unvote soon. You were worried your 31 might be perceived as rolefishing.

I don't like your conflicted view of being annoyed that the IC might be drawn out while also saying an early IC claim isn't bad. Also how you said it's a 'shame' Transcend's claim wasn't real - it doesn't match up, and makes your subsequent claim of 'annoyance' seem fake.

I don't like how you say you were thinking of voting me but then don't vote me - what is the purpose of this exactly? A veiled threat to say 'if you keep this up I will vote you?' A way of throwing a bit of shade while avoiding direct conflict?

/good stuff just keeps coming

Is giving these reads scummy as well as pointless?

Never said it was scummy.

You voted, and then criticised the big list of reads, so I rather assumed you thought the big list of reads was scummy. If not - why did you vote mutant?

I'm liking this Elmo wagon.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

I’m also currently willing to vote for havingfitz if the wagon was to switch to him. Both of these players strike me as scummy but as Elmo currently has a bigger wagon on them, and I just see them as generally less useful for the town, that is where my vote lies.

mutantdevle is town.

I'm all the more interested to hear Fitz' observations given he only seems to post about things that are directly related to him.

I'm not a fan of havingfitz

I do not like how fast Elmo's wagon is coming together. Now to figure out whether Elmo is actually town, and who's in it for the mislynch.

Now that you know Yuria-scum is on it you need to show that you could sense scum suddenly on the wagon?

So, you don't think it's alignment indicative, but you voted him when pointing it out and still say your vote is in the right place. How does this make sense?

Oh but going for the lynch after all huh? Elmo - town equals IceGuy-scum.......so let's lynch IceGuy! Oh, but Elmo is equally as good.

unvote

vote: Elmo TeH AzN

Time for a claim.

Do not hammer and try to say you didn't know

That was shockingly easy

It was the proper thing to do.

Serious Yuria? Why are you feeling that much pressure? sheepsaysmeep could easily be ignored long enough for them to go back to sleep and leave you alone. You should have just kept quiet and see if scum either did it again, or tried pressuring you. Because that's who would be pressuring you at that point. Unless of course, you are already feeling pressure from carrying a scum role as it is. When sheepsaysmeep put a feather on your back, it caused you to squawk out "With reason!".

um, im not sure what you're talking about, but i squaked cuz luca got to fishy before me, and in a way that makes interpreting whether he's actually doing the tell way harder. There's no real point in not being transparent about it; scum will do scum tells again if they're legit tells and none of y'all know me well enough to cater your play to me.

That's good explaining.

you just say like this is good, that is good, these are wagons, now these are wagons, i agree with this
can you provide some more opinions of your own?

[sheepsaysmeep]

wait what is wrong with this thing

[Luca Blight]

I doubt this matters but just saying I’m no longer prepared to lynch Yuria. Since my initial reads they’ve contributed a lot more and all of their contributions seem town to me.

Just my opinion, but I don't really like posts like this - Just think if Yuria is scum, what confidence and relief your post will give to her! I know when I'm scum and people say 'not lynching Luca today' I can then relax and play with confidence, rather than having to tread on eggshells.

Always better to keep everyone on their toes rather than write them off for the lynch so early in the day.

Funny. You don't seem to be on eggshells.

Probably because I'm Town.