Micro 745: Beyond Death [Endgame]

[Papa Zito]

Hello friends I will commence with the reading.

[Papa Zito]

onice

[Papa Zito]

Aight I read the things. This game is surprisingly dense.

Cabd is a big fat liar and I wanna see my file. Where do I send my FOIA request.

VOTE: BTD6

[Papa Zito]

Don't know what to make of this just yet. Need more from Papa.

More what.

[Papa Zito]

Like you read things but what do you think about it all? Did you get any reads? Why are you voting BTD6_MAKER? What made him scummy to you?

yeah see this is a much better post than complaining

I do have reads yes and unlike Friend BTD6 I had no trouble getting strong reads.

I'm voting him for reasons I don't want to get into at this time.

[Papa Zito]

Complaining? I said I need more...like more information to make a conclusion. I didn't say omg why is Zito not posting more game content. That's a pretty strong reaction to a pretty neutral statement. Prefacing your post like that makes withholding your read seem more scummy than I'd otherwise find it.

That's a strong reaction? ok

Good thing I'm not too terribly worried about what your read on me is I guess.

[Papa Zito]

Shoulda kept reading.

so what are those strong reads zito? any townreads? who do you think is scummy? your predecessor (you replaced kawso, right?) thought i was scum, do you agree?

I do have townreads yes.

[Papa Zito]

Zito is ex-SS so probably okay for now, even though he seems to be intent on scumming up the slot.

Hello Chip. Let's talk about this sentence.

[Papa Zito]

Seriously Chip. Put a vote into play.

Predit: haha, haven't you realized that Chip's go to method of reading people is that activity=Town, any sign of lurkyness=scum and absent=null.

The Magic Chip Formula.

I'm not really lurking I'm just feeling really confident in my reads. Which is weird but nice. So atm I'm much more interested in supporting my townreads efforts in doing things than trying to drill down on my own.

Other than Chip. I do want to have a chat with Chip. Speaking of which:

Sure. If your slot didn't have the SS history behind it, i would be at least have you leaning scum atm.

oh no

but why

[Papa Zito]

So yes, let's chat. We'll both become towner as we go along. And not to be rude or anything, but i feel you kind of owe it to SS to town it up a bit...

rofl I don't owe that guy anything and I sure as hell don't need to "town it up a bit"

Which hey look you've once again made a super vague statement. So here I am asking why you're tossing shade instead of either determining alignment or pushing a wagon. Can you plz solve this mysterious mystery.

[Papa Zito]

Ok well that's certainly a list of things I've done. More or less. But you've failed to show why a scum me would be more likely to do them.

:/

[Papa Zito]

My dude.

Once again you've dodged the question while throwing shade. I'll ask the question again: Why would scum Zito be more likely to act this way than town Zito.

[Papa Zito]

Nopes again. You don't get to ask questions while blowing off questions from others. You haven't contributed anything except that naked vote on BTD. How am i supposed to townread you based on that?

So here's your problem my friend. You've casually insinuated a few times now that my actions are "scummy" without actually giving any backing to the claim. And I've given you ample opportunity to do so. Just to be clear, I'm not asking so you can convince

me

, I know what my alignment is! But if you actually well and truly believe that I'm doing vague and mysterious scummy things then your reaction should include things like:

1. Voting me
2. Asking others to vote me; pushing a wagon
3. Pressuring me into answering questions
4. Examining my iso and voting history in detail
5. Putting forth a case

My issue is that you've done none of these things. Instead what you've done is:

1. Throw shade at my slot
2. Complain about my behavior
3. Refuse to explain basically anything

I came in with a pretty strong scumread on your slot, so when you presented the opportunity to engage I took it and you've failed spectacularly. Nothing you've done in reaction to me has been townie. Instead you've tried to take advantage of my nonstandard behavior by throwing shade to erode the townpoints my predecessor gained without actually committing to it with a vote or writing down a stance I could debunk. Doing that would pin you down into a 1-on-1 that you're not sure you want because you don't know how good a player I am or how good my reads happen to be.

@Micc:

Are you done with BTD or do you still have things to hash out with that slot?

[Papa Zito]

Rockin.

VOTE: Chip

not really agreeing here. chip actually

has

done some of the things you're describing! as for pressuring you to answer questions, what do you call 523 and 525? you say that he's not examining your iso in detail, but that's pretty much what he does in 521. you could make the argument that he didn't analyze it in detail, but i would say that there wasn't really a whole lot to analyze. it doesn't make a lot of sense for chip to just suddenly start voting you and pushing your wagon just because he believes you've been scummier than ss was - the townread on ss still exists.

I feel absolutely no pressure from Chip whatsoever. Complaining that he doesn't like what I'm doing (523/525)/ taking his ball and going home (526) forces nothing from me at all. You argued your own point on 521, well done.

The SS hedge is fun but either I'm scummy to him or I'm not. He's thrown enough shade to make it clear he thinks the latter so I think I'm perfectly justified asking why his actions aren't aligning with his words.

[Papa Zito]

Good lord almighty. I have answered all that at this point.

For someone who isn't feeling any pressure you sure are panic posting.

I'll answer your questions after you have become more forthcoming.

This is where you took your ball and went home.

[Papa Zito]

I can certainly see the hypocrisy of Papa Zito here, naked voting me and then making this case against you.

That's not what hypocrisy means. I know the big words are fun to use but let's be responsible posters.

---

Can you point me to where you answered that?

Sure. 518.

I'm pretty sure I've caught PZ in a lie there btw.

Do tell.

[Papa Zito]

Okay, let's look at 518. I'm really glad you brought this post up.

Neat.

First thing, i don't see how you have answered why you have answered my questions (which hadn't yet been asked at this point). All i see here is a preemptive strike against future questions by saying you don't want to drill down on your own stuff. Guess what, champ? That shit don't fly. I think you are just trying to retro-fit this post to suit your current needs.

? I voted in 438. I explain in 518. Are you ok?

And why did you feel the need to defend yourself against a lurking charge? Had anyone accused you of lurking? Not that i can see...

That was in response to this post:

Predit: haha, haven't you realized that Chip's go to method of reading people is that activity=Town, any sign of lurkyness=scum and absent=null.

[Papa Zito]

Except you don't explain your vote in 518. Is anyone else seeing an explanation there? All I'm seeing is 'I'm not interested in explaining'

yeesh

Here I'll quote the exact sentence for you.

So atm I'm much more interested in supporting my townreads efforts in doing things than trying to drill down on my own.

[Papa Zito]

I feel like I've somehow wandered into Road to Rome.

[Papa Zito]

Why the townreads on Micc and Hopkirk? Why so strong you see them as sheepable?

I will politely decline to answer these questions.

Why didn't you want to say this was what you were doing?

Oh you want some mafia philosophy?

Here's you some mafia philosophy. One of my early influences was Thesp, an IC in one of my newbie games, who said this:

I strongly subscribe to a limited information theory of mafia in all directions - that is, there is a significant degree of information that everyone ought to keep secret and/or is trying to keep secret. (I think it's important to assess the motivations for keeping such things undisclosed, but it is not always as important to know for certain what people are keeping secret, aside from their alignments.) To that end, I will not explain my actions all the time, nor do I think I should. I do think I owe the town explanations from time to time, and if I expect to convince anyone, I absolutely ought to give more compelling reasons for people to follow along with me.

So when I play, I tend not to "show my cards" as it were. I monitor what's going on in all the discussions being had, and I poke at people as well, but I don't tend to give much information away unless I'm specifically asked and I think the question being asked is helpful. Mostly I do this to keep the scum guessing - the less I give away, the less they know how big a threat I am to them. If I feel really strongly about a particular read I will go ham to get that lynch through.

I hope you enjoyed this short treatise on How I Do Things.

[Papa Zito]

@Chip: If you think you can push through a policy lynch you go right ahead bud.

NSG spotted the gaping logical flaws in Papa's case

Please illuminate the class on these gaping logical flaws.

[Papa Zito]

Yup, that was my conclusion too. Cheeky is a second possibility.

VOTE: northsidegal

[Papa Zito]

a lot of your reasoning on how my posts make me chip's partner come off as if you already started with the perspective of me being chip's partner and then used that to explain how my posts made sense in that context, rather than starting from a neutral context.

This isn't true in the least.

If you want to live past today I'd suggest you start actually doing some work instead of trying to pick fights with Extremely Likely Townies.

[Papa Zito]

why does it matter to you, don't you think i'm scum anyways?

I want you to prove me wrong. And Micc is the last person you should be worrying about.

[Papa Zito]

UC who did you think was Chip's partner before Micc made that post?

[Papa Zito]

[quote="In post 665, UC Voyager"I think it is BTD6......he also wasn't on the chip wagon.[/quote]
Is there anything else with BTD6 that points that way other than being off the wagon?

[Papa Zito]

welp

[Papa Zito]

also of note is how both chip and cheeky had eachother solidly in the highest tier of both of their readslists, just below the conftown for chip. i honestly believe people are giving cheeky far too little scrutiny today, especially her reaction to the chip wagon as compared to mine.

Yep, cheeky is a distant 2nd in the 2017 Most Likely Scumpartner Pageant.

That said, I still think they are bad Town.

If I'm bad town what are you, Captain Not-On-The-Scum-Lynch?

Also I'm not a they.

For now. I haven't hit the aha moment that makes me think this is right yet and I'm getting cold feet. I don't want to do anything without talking it through with cabd/Zito/Hopkirk but it's not going to happen today because I'm kinda busy.

What do you wanna talk over?

[Papa Zito]

My point about bad Town was that they are much more confident in their reads than the actual probability. For example, I think it's likely that if you take every time a Townie claims to be 80% certain of a read, a lot less than 80% of those reads will be on actual scum.

Unless I am certain of a preferred pronoun, I tend to just use the singular they.

Is it bad to be confident in your reads and thus actually driving the game forward or is it bad to just sit on your ass and do absolutely nothing all game. Also my pronoun is tagged on every single of the thousands of posts I've made on this website.

@Micc

I came to the same conclusions you did when I read overnight. I'm 100% on board here. I'm also willing to vote Cheeky today.

@Hopkirk

did you read the multiple posts where northsidegal was defending our flipped scum? You really think those come from town?

@UC

there's only one scum left my dude there's no possibility of collusion here.

[Papa Zito]

You argued hard against his wagon. End of.

Q: Should we, under no circumstances, lynch you today (y/n)?

[Papa Zito]

are you really going to lynch me

Yes.

The question is p simple, I'll ask a different way. Are you planning on fighting against your lynch tooth and nail all day today?

[Papa Zito]

jfc no please don't get them started on statistics

Wait. You don't want us to scum hunt until there is a replacment. If I wasn't so confidant in BTD6, I would say NSG was scummy...

UC I'll make you a deal. You give me NSG today, I'll give you BTD6 tomorrow.

[Papa Zito]

Few reasons.

1. We're ahead of the pitch count and can afford some mislynches
2. Do you really want BSG alive at lylo given her play this game
3. Micc's points are all completely valid
4. If you really value her input: due to the setup, she'll still get to talk to us tomorrow

Point 3 is what I was driving at with my questions to her earlier. If I were in her shoes I'd be 100% offense 0% defense since even if I was mislynched I could still help tomorrow. Only person in this game who should be super concerned about getting lynched is our last scumbud.

[Papa Zito]

Cabd I need you to start speaking up bud, the game is stagnating.

[Papa Zito]

maybe it just doesn't work at all on some people.

sup

[Papa Zito]

Savor the anticipation.

[Papa Zito]

Shrug. I've seen it before. Make no assumptions.

[Papa Zito]

Yeah I'm down.

VOTE: Cheeky

If this doesn't do it I'll have to really reassess the game, but north/cheeky were the most logical partners for Chip.

[Papa Zito]

hmm

That really would have looked scummy coming from anyone, but CheekyTeeky! In fact. It honestly makes me town read her!

Why would scum Cheeky want to kill him when this was his last post of the day.

[Papa Zito]

>_>

[Papa Zito]

Clearly time for a reread.

[Papa Zito]

Sorry guys, I'll get to this at lunch today.

[Papa Zito]

Ok so I re-read Micc, Hopkirk and BTD6 in context of Day 1, side-by-side with Chip.

* Micc is still clearly town here. The early push on Chip was stamped by Micc Industries, he lamented later that it fell apart, and hopped back on as soon as it was viable again. In between those periods he was poking and prodding at everyone. There simply isn't a scum agenda here. If MiccTeam decided to pull off an all-day angry bus then kudos enjoy your win I ain't even mad.

* Hopkirk was a guy most of Day 1. But I think he was a town guy. There very much looks like a progression of reads on Cheeky which culminates in 398; I can grok his frustration with someone refusing to directly answer things and the fact he talks about it and continues to push it is town; scum would just cast nets elsewhere. His BTD6 push next is perfectly logical. His bounce to Chip when it occurred doesn't make a huge amount of sense from a scum perspective, there were a variety of targets he could easily have continued to counterwagon.

* Which brings us to BTD6. Chip really didn't like my naked vote on this slot, which is strange because he noted himself that BTD6 had offered the game virtually nothing. Shouldn't he be encouraging a wagon there? Especially considering that, as scum, all he really cares about is mislynching townies, so why the concern? I also noted that the only interactions between these two were to agree that my case was crap. Beyond that almost all of his "content" is avoidance.


So BTD6 is where I wanna go with my vote. Cabd we're at or extremely near endgame, I'd love for you to make with some words.

[Papa Zito]

Gods, what to make of post 820. It's the only thing i'm waffly about.

I've gone back and forth on that NK and ultimately where I landed was this: The move was so absolutely suboptimal that the only possible benefit it could have was to introduce confusion into the game, so it should simply be ignored. Corollary to that, any discussion regarding the NK should also be ignored since it's just a thousand gallon tank of wifom.

[Papa Zito]

It's an attempt to increase the viable lynch pool by discrediting the townies behind the wagon. You need room to maneuver.

That's been my read of it anyway.

[Papa Zito]

Are you assuming that just because a wagon was on scum there was no scum on it?

Secondly, are you assuming that just because Townies lynch scum, their reasoning must be solid?

You are wrong on both counts. A wagon on scum does not necessarily have to be composed entirely of Town, and the people on that wagon should not be automatically treated as unlynchable. Secondly, in this case I do indeed think that Town as a whole were right for the wrong reasons.

One of the major problems I have with your play this game is posts like these. I'm not here to argue theory with you or debate How Mafia Works, that's just a bunch of white noise. I'm also not terribly interested in watching you set up strawmen and gallantly knock them down.

The purpose of my post was not to convince you that you're scum here, that's a pointless endeavor regardless of your actual alignment. I'm just giving my opinion on that particular topic, mostly for cabd's benefit. Sorry if you thought that was an opening for debate.

[Papa Zito]

I gave my opinion of a specific event and how and why it occurred in this game. You took that and went full on Mafia Discussion on it. They aren't remotely related topics and I'm not going to go down that primrose path. And, again, my thoughts are going to be mostly for cabd's benefit here.

I've already touched on the topic of why I think you're scum, add "repeat myself ad nauseam" to the list of things I'm not interested in doing.

[Papa Zito]

cabd save me

[Papa Zito]

I haven't voted because I'm assuming this is lylo but lemme think out loud.

Night 1: UC Voyager slot of all people gets primed
Night 2: whoosh
Night 3:

unknown

gets primed

We have 5 players alive. If we mislynch today, we're down to 4. I think, regardless of whether we mislynched Night 3's primed townie, scum will prime another one. If we

didn't

lynch the primed target, then killing them Night 4 just puts us at 3. If we

did

lynch the primed target then they got nothing to blow up and gotta prime again.

So I guess we're not at lylo after all. I'd still like you to weigh in but if you feel like it's better to wait a day we can do that.

[Papa Zito]

Oh my god this game is so weird with all the treestumps I love it. Hello Regfan thank you for subbing in to this bonkers game.

I need to reread this thing

again

I guess.

[Papa Zito]

I went back to do VCA but the votecounts are too sparse. I'll have to manually recreate the various Day 1 wagons by hand which'll be fun. I'll work on that tonight.

[Papa Zito]

I went back to do VCA but the votecounts are too sparse. I'll have to manually recreate the various Day 1 wagons by hand which'll be fun. I'll work on that tonight.

I'm not a huge fan of VCA in most games but in this one with only 2 scum members and a D1 scum lynch I'm even more leery of it so what particularly do you think you

might

find from it that'll be helpful in solving this? Only asking because I fear you'll come out of this learning nothing and having spent quite some time on it whereas I'd rather you spend a little of that just laying down your unfiltered thoughts of the situation at hand.

I'd only be looking at D1 given how subsequent days went. I'm not expecting a major aha moment and I'm also not viewing time as a super precious commodity rn so I dunno why even if you consider it a waste I can't spend some time doing something wasteful. Suffice to say I've found it helpful in the past so if it provides even a modicum of clarify to a game I've thought was solved several times now I'm all for it.

I don't know what "unfiltered thoughts" (what does that even mean) you want here. "Why the fuck isn't this game over" is basically where I'm at.

[Papa Zito]

Hopkirk, PoE, 0%. My confidence in reads this game is shot to hell.

[Papa Zito]

Arrite I will deliver the Words unto you when I start delving into this mess tonight.

[Papa Zito]

I wouldn't mind you running through why you thought Cheeky was a likely candidate for scum with Chip since you mentioned it in Post 636 and again in Post 717 and Post 826 but never really explained it at all so while we now know it's not the case I'd still like to hear what made you believe this.

aight prepare to be quotewalled you asked for it

Why aren't yall helping to wagon the guy who planted his RVS vote on a player who is replacing out and then disappeared from the thread?

I wondered if he missed that rc is replacing out. We should see how long he sits on it for lol.

Here Cheeky pre-offers an excuse during Micc's initial Chip foray. (Chip uses it in post 18)

Wow micc are you always so LAMIST?

Again, during Micc's initial Chip push.

Part of what made them mixed is they did have some minor back-and-forths midday. 253-255, 317-321, 371-379. Nothing major (no votes, no push) but it did seem like Cheeky was casting about a bit.

This feels like TvT...just saying.

This was her reaction to another Micc vs Chip scuffle.

530ish is where the flashwagon to Chip happens that leads to his lynch. Cheeky disappears for quite some time until:

Lol just joking. Seriously wtf people get off Chip. The whole case is bad and I know Cabd better be reaction testing when he helped build the wagon or else he doesn't actually read the thread and needs to be ignored. NSG spotted the gaping logical flaws in Papa's case and she fell into the background. This is the strongest proof to me so far that she's either town or scum distancing, but we won't know until Papa flips. For now I'm going to say she's town.

Please can we have some more unvotes. Chip you neglected my slot in your updated reads.

UNVOTE:

There is scum on this wagon, I can smell it.

Yet again, defending the Chip slot. It's a hell of a reaction, especially after her last encounter with Chip was

Oh no are you scum chip?

That progression didn't grok at all.

So my feeling from her was she was perfectly willing to sling a little mud at him but nothing serious, while simultaneously defending him from attacks.


I'll get to your 910 thing in a bit.

[Papa Zito]

@Zito

hi

- You call

I fold

that

yes that

a quote wall

For me that was a quote wall. I'm not gonna go full Mastin on anyone

?

‽

MoI and RC

oh ho ho you call those wallers, get your shit together Regfan we all know who Captain Wallpost is.

would be

Do they even exist. Do I even exist. Are we all just a random assortment of atoms that happened to come close enough together to briefly swirl about in a state we tell ourselves is "consciousness" but is really just a passing whiff of the True Scent of the Universe?

very disappointed

If you'd met either one of those you'd know that was their default state

right now.

Don't wanna wait till tomorrow.

The early semi-defenses of Cheeky feel like a really really flimsy reason to think they're linked there.

By themselves sure, but they a) became something of a pattern, and 2) were completely unnecessary from someone who seemed at least vaguely suspicious of Chip throughout the day if not outright sus as depicted in that quote.

Did you take a look at her thinking that Cabd had scum slipped and the way she went into explaining that when you'd scum read her or at any point? Would like to hear how you thought that came from scum.

Can I get one of these in English?


I took a gander at 910 and it's a fine piece of work. What precisely is your beef with my Hopkirk bit?

[Papa Zito]

so yeah, what made you think the below came from scum?

I'm not sure why you're so impressed with that series of posts given it was completely wrong.

But to answer your question: I had the benefit of subbing in after the big reveal + cabd's thorough debunking. I've also seen scum attempt "gotchas" in the past in the name of scumhunting. I didn't think there was anything particularly town about any of that at all.

As for your Post 910 it's the Hopkirk read I'd like to see a little more explained about since you seem to think his BTD push is and timing is perfectly logical whereas I'm looking at it and reading it as very unnatural there. So what about it did you like exactly at the time and what's your thoughts on it

now

?

In 247 Hopkirk says he wants info from BTD. That's because BTD has done Jack and his cousin Shit all game at that point. BTD disappears on V/LA until 383, and when pressed about reads, finally drops this bombshell:

Let's start with these:

Have you read the game?
Who do you want lynched today?

I have skimmed the game.

I cannot say I want any one person lynched at the moment. My reads are still very weak and flexible. I will be able to give a better answer later today, perhaps. I do have a very weak scumread on the CheekyTeeky slot, but that slot is being replaced and I will have to read the replacement.

This post is a solid 0/10 on the Helpfulness scale and absolutely begs to be pushed. It's unacceptable at that stage of the game to both be a completely null presence AND not cooperate.

Not much point leaving my vote where it is when it’s waiting for a replacement.
VOTE: BTD6

383 – Gives light scumread on Cheeky, doesn’t follow it with a vote, and promises more content later.
421 - Two days later. No further catch up. Follows up slightly on Cheeky but no vote. Complains about activity (kind of ironically).

Don’t really like the entrance. Both those posts look longish, but have no significant content in them. I could very easily see the Cheeky vote as a bus.

Oh look Hopkirk agrees. Micc is also pushing BTD to do something anything please God help because the alternative is, what, listen to a bunch of useless pontificating?

So yeh 100% logical. Clearly one of the two in that scenario has to be scum so it's a scum player also recognizing that a push there makes excellent sense, time to do things that look town but that doesn't detract from the argument any.

[Papa Zito]

That answer was pure avoidance. It offers a

single

"very weak scumread" and says answers will be forthcoming.... "

perhaps

". Given at that point BTD6 had made 5/421 posts (so close) in the whole goddamn game holy hell yes some pressure was absolutely warranted. The game was way too content rich for that post to be viable. I noted this when I replaced in. In what universe is pressuring a 0 content slot a bad thing?

Can I again mention your boy Micc also dropped a vote at this very time and pressured BTD6 as well?

Yeah, im on board with this.
VOTE: BTD6_maker

Are they both scum here Regfan or are you not reading this with a clear head?

[Papa Zito]

What I'm trying to get at is that if you actually open up Hopkirks ISO and look through his reads and thoughts in the day and the progression behind them the BTD one comes out of nowhere.

It comes directly after BTD6 comes back from V/LA and makes a couple giant empty nothing posts.

I am completely lost how this is confusing.

Look at the reasoning he's presented for the vote, then look at how much (if not all) of that reasoning could be attributed to Chip there and it's bad, add to that the fact that a decent chunk of the reasoning behind the BTD vote just doesn't make sense (Didn't vote Cheeky in his recent post due to replacing out v Hopkirk unvoting Cheeky due to replacing out), like if I'm looking at this reasoning behind his vote the only way I buy it is if he's town and really was confident in Cheeky being scum and was using interaction stuff to convince himself that BTD was more likely due to it but that's a read that'd be attached to him so others looking at that reasoning and calling it good is concerning particularly later in the game when reassessment should have kicked in.

So are we talking about reasoning or timing. I thought your beef was the timing.

If it's suddenly not the timing then what, are you questioning why I didn't go after Hopkirk for that one post? It's probably because before today I didn't know BTD was town and I'm not a terribly good revisionist historian and also north/cheeky were things that had to be dealt with for reasons I think we're all tired of hearing about?

[Papa Zito]

So I'm looking at the, vote and the timing of it and scratching my head and am unsure why you haven't/aren't doing so too.

This is my last post on this topic because I'm sick of discussing it and you keep moving the goalposts.

1. The vote and timing and reasoning and everything having to do with anything about that post were 0 issue on Day 1 because I wanted Chip dead and he died.
2. The vote and timing and reasoning and everything having to do with anything about that post were 0 issue on Day 2 because north was next most likely partner to Chip.
3. The vote and timing and reasoning and everything having to do with anything about that post were 0 issue on Day 3 because Cheeky was next most likely partner to Chip.
4. The vote and timing and reasoning and everything having to do with anything about that post were 0 issue on Day 4 because BTD was still here doing fuckall in the game other than moaning about Micc and was either scum or a giant liability (see: performance thus far today)
5. The vote and timing and reasoning and everything having to do with anything about that post has been 0 issue Day 5 because

I need to reread this thing

again

I guess.

You asked me why I had no issue with the timing of that post. I've answered that question a hundred times now. If I was in the game at the time I'd have done the exact same thing. Reads on other players don't fucking matter because

they were actually giving content in the game

.

Congratulations you've managed to frustrate the ever loving fuck out of me as confirmed town. As a reminder, I'm not making a post on this subject again, I don't care what you have to say on it or how scummy you decide it makes me.

[Papa Zito]

Woo holidays, let me catch up.

[Papa Zito]

Well that was a disappointing read.

Let's talk people.

[Papa Zito]

I’m here. Fire away

If you're not town I'll eat a steak. Absolutely nothing I can find points you to being mafia in this game.

So I'd rather you fire away cuz I don't wanna get mislynched.


Sidenote: I just discovered if you do alt+u it does the underline BBCode for you whoa

[Papa Zito]

Give me something you want commented on in particular. There's a lot that's been said.

I'm can't answer for any of the Space stuff.

[Papa Zito]

Why have you been the last one to take a stance from day 2 onward. Make me feel better about you not riding my mislynch generating momentum all the way to lylo.

I was the 2nd vote on Day 2. Do you not consider this taking a stance?

[Papa Zito]

yeah I understand that but it doesn't really address the point I was trying to make. It feels like your play from day 2 onward has been primarily supporting me in generating mislynches and pushing me back in that direction when I start to reconsider. Can you address that?

I will fully admit to working with a strong townread and I'll also admit that our views this game seem to have been more or less in sync.

Can you show an example where I pushed you in some direction? I don't recall this happening.

[Papa Zito]

I was thinking back to Day 2 when I was reconsidering on NSG and you confirmed pretty strongly that that's where you were at as well.

On 635 you posted your NSG case. On 636 I voted. How were you reconsidering in 635?

[Papa Zito]

So that exchange was basically this.

Micc: I want to all be in agreement here.
Zito: I'm 100% on board

How is this me trying to convince you of something?

While we're here can you talk about why you're 100% on board with NSG here while still being open to Cheeky and BTD (post 751)?

With the Chip scum flip I had a lynch pool of NSG >>>>>>> Cheeky>> BTD. NSG was by far my preferred lynch that day but I was willing to compromise. That very post pretty much explicitly shows this. I'm really confused why something so basic is controversial.


@Regfan: I'm not interested in generalities. Ask specifics.

[Papa Zito]

gg Hopkirk, it was a good play.

From your position if Miccs town then Hopkirk is mafia, you need to sell me on him being mafia here since I'm deciding between the two of you.

It's not a case of me asking you specific questions but more a case of if you're town you needing to convince us that he's scum, so please do.

You've unfortunately been completely lost in the weeds of this game instead of looking at the big picture, and then compounded that with leading everyone else astray. I hope you review and learn from your mistakes here.

The puzzle of this game is a very simple one. Ignoring Cabd, all three of us voted Chip in 530, 531 and 532. The whole question about bussing has been answered. So the real question is who it was. Was it

A. The guy who was on Chip not once, not twice, but three times on Day 1?
B. The guy who caused the Chip wagon to fire after replacing into a low energy game, switching a pro-Chip slot to an anti-Chip slot, when plenty of other targets existed?
C. The guy who claimed to scumread Chip but never voted until seeing an opportunity when B happened?

VOTE: hopkirk for posterity I guess

Zito, why'd you have me so strongly as town at that point of day 2, and also now?

You've clearly been trying to gamesolve and our views of the game have been in sync.

[Papa Zito]

I've gone into detail on why I think bussing is advantageous for scum in this setup (no investigations, no "why haven't you been shot", mslynch wise it's probable mafia still need the same number of mslynches) so you pushing Chip is far from clearing there.

Yes, clearly it was advantageous as we are now in the situation we find ourselves in. You're once again missing the big picture here. All those votes occurred at the same time. One player bussed. Two didn't. The key to the puzzle is deciding which is which as that event was really the only major one of the game.

I've also gone into detail about your point C in Hopkirk in that he'd voted elsewhere while scum reading Chip up until that wagon, in fact I discussed that with you and you...also argued with me about it rather than agreed that it wasn't a good look for him.

I told you I hadn't read and you tried to force a conversation anyway. I've now done my wagon analysis and reread the day. I'm not sure why you're complaining that I'm agreeing with you now.

You and Micc are the only ones talking so I'm talking to you two. I'm not gonna yell at the void that is NSG or BTD or Cabd.

[Papa Zito]

I just did. I'll break it down more for you more I guess. After examining the game in detail I determined the following:

* The game was on autopilot after Day 1. There's nothing of any real value there. Shame on us yes but it is what it is.
* Therefore, posts of alignment value are only found in Day 1.
* The major event of Day 1 was the Chip flashwagon that resulted in his lynch.
* All four living players were in on that flashwagon's creation making comparisons easy
* One of those four is confirmed town and can be removed from consideration
* I broke down the remaining three

There's no magic "AH HA" post I can point to that raises Hopkirk's magical numeric % meter. Because the foundation of that wagon still lives, the key to this game is to examine how and why that wagon happened. Two townies voted there, and one scum bussed.

- Is it more likely or less likely that Micc bussed? Micc was pushed Chip multiple times that day. Micc was widely townread and didn't need cred. Micc was active while the game was stagnant.
- Is it more likely or less likely that Zito bussed? Zito subbed into a slot that was widely townread and didn't need cred. Zito's actions stirred up a stagnant game and led directly to a scum lynch.
- Is it more likely or less likely that Hopkirk bussed? Hopkirk questioned Chip in one series of posts but never acted on that suspicion and never attempted a wagon on him. It was only after seeing 2 votes from (confirmed town) Cabd, (widely townread) Micc and intent from (widely townread) Zito that he jumped on board.

If you collectively recognize that this is the key to the game the puzzle becomes clear.

[Papa Zito]

@PZ - I can look at that and somewhat understand why

you

are voting Hopkirk here, that's not where I've got an issue with at all since I think if you're town you're voting correctly. It just doesn't do too much to convince me that it's Hopkirk over yourself, I've touched on why I think your push on Chip isn't necessarily something to rule you out on. I agree that Hopkirks lack of vote on Chip until the wagon isn't a good look and is certainly a scum tell here, that said it's not a strong enough point alone to lynch him based on for me so unless you've got

more

than that I'm unlikely to try and get votes moved.

Allow me to counter then with - What precisely is the scum case on me? As we've established someone bussed so you can't use that against me specifically. What else?

[Papa Zito]

in particular really find his Chip read hard to understand and find his treatment of Micc v how he was interacting with Micc to feel contradictory, feel if he'd had Micc as low in his list he'd have spent less time reaching out to him trying to get him to join him on another wagon and instead questioned him more. I also disliked his interaction with Cheeky in regards to their read on Cabd, both prior and post claim from Cabd. The more I look at his ISO the more problems I have with it.

You can't condemn Spacey for townreading Chip and then condemn me for scumreading him. Are you insane. Clearly I disagreed with him on a number of points, which is why I went in a completely different direction.

Finding the interactions between PZ/Chip particularly on the Chip end to make sense as partners moreso than any other pairing here; feel he interacts and treats you rather differently than Micc for instance and think there's a few specific interactions that feel like scum theatre, the whole "You're scumming up a slot that SS did well as town for" would make sense as a thing if SS was his partner and he felt you were ruining the slots position.

Of course he treats me differently. Here were his options:

1. Cabd, who was confirmed town;
2. Micc, who was widely townread;
3. Hopkirk, his partner;
4. Zito, who he'd opportunistically been slinging mud at prior.

I don't understand how you think Chip's reaction to my replacing in points to us being partners if you've actually read the game. Scum need mislynch options and when I replaced in I wasn't one of them, nobody was pressuring my slot or really had at all up to that point. I was in 0 danger of being lynched. Chip's reaction to my replacement was to try undermining the townread Space had gained. That's not something you do to a partner who's in a good position.

Finding your play and reads post D1 for the most part to feel fairly lackluster and seeing plenty of scum motivation behind that in that you're allowing town to just continue mslynching each other and getting yourself deep in the game due to it. I don't see a lot of actual deep assessment of players alignments D2/D3/D4, I dislike how level 1 your analysis of Cheekys play and your scum read on her was when you explained it. I don't see you attempting to gamesolve today in the same manner I think Micc and to a slightly lesser degree Hopkirk are. I found your "I'll do VCA" typet hing as an attempt to follow on busywork type things and the lack of follow through on that combined with your re-entrance to the thread after a huge break just don't seem like town thinking about the game or trying to get mafia lynched much to me.

This is such a bad post holy hell.

1. I'm not in control of this town. I cannot force their votes. Saying I'm "allowing town to just continue mislynching" is putting way too much responsibility on one player and ONCE AGAIN points to how you've completely not read the game in context. The game was on autopilot D2-4 and putting that solely on me is asinine.
2. I have gamesolved and presented the solution to the game in the easiest possible format I could think of

twice

. Here's what I guess is a revelation to you: Post count/word count are not alignment indicative.
3. I did the VCA. I didn't post it here because you keep calling it busywork and apparently putting effort into the game in a way that isn't Regfan Approved means I'm scum. Now you condemn me for

not

posting it? Hello?
4. I'm not going to apologize for enjoying a holiday with my family. This game does not take precedence over my personal life. Someday I'll play a game and not have players attempt to make me feel bad for having a life outside of the Internet, but today is not that day.
5. How the fuck am I not thinking about the game when I've gone through the effort to wade through the bullshit and distill it to its core? "You're not playing the way I want you to" does not mean I'm scum ffs.

@Zito: Given you agree that bussing is advantageous, how does it follow that the softest bus is scum?

It wasn't planned.

[Papa Zito]

The vote movements didn't end up telling me anything interesting so I didn't keep it.

[Papa Zito]

I’m a little thrown off that you seem to be making a point to show you’re not going to cater to Regfan’s expectations, yet not posting/saving the VCA seems to be catering to Regfan’s expectations.

That's not what I'm saying. My point is he's concluding I'm scum because my approach to solving the game doesn't match his. He seems to want me to do a hypercritical pbpa on Hopkirk (I think?) and I don't think that helps anybody. I think focusing on the crux of the game is far more productive.

[Papa Zito]

I don't understand how you think Chip's reaction to my replacing in points to us being partners if you've actually read the game. Scum need mislynch options and when I replaced in I wasn't one of them, nobody was pressuring my slot or really had at all up to that point. I was in 0 danger of being lynched. Chip's reaction to my replacement was to try undermining the townread Space had gained. That's not something you do to a partner who's in a good position.

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying here again. I'm not talking about his reaction towards your vote on him or him voting you or anything like that.

I'm talking about casual interactions that occurred between the two of you earlier in the day phase.

/shrug

So am I. I'm literally talking about the time period when I replaced in. Aka earlier in the day phase.

I don't think you're actually reading what I post so I guess there's no point in talking to you. You've really thrown this game Regfan.

[Papa Zito]

Awe man we fucked this one up. Sorry to Zito. Sorry to the other townies. Congrats to Hopkirk and Chip.

We did fuck this one up. No need to apologize, you were by far the best player on our team.

Congrats to Hopkirk and Chip indeed.

[Papa Zito]

I'd like to see the dead thread.

Also I'm super curious about The Mystery of Night Two.

[Papa Zito]

That's hilarious. Given how this went down I wish I had taken the bullet instead.

our views of the game have been in sync.

yeah. this is what scares me and you haven't been able to make me feel better about it.

How do you feel about this now.

[Papa Zito]

I expected Regfan to come and pontificate at some point, I'm disappointed.

I'm still trying to identify what went wrong in this game. I went from being on auto pilot to overanalyzing at just the wrong time. Possibly a byproduct of me not generally being a town-blocking type of player. Possibly its just that my performance would have earned me a night kill before lylo under normal mechanics and not being used to this type of situation. Possibly had to do with being my first game back after a year plus break.

Here's what I think went wrong:

1. You and I were completely overconfident after Day 1.
2. Cabd did absolutely nothing with his confirmed town status.
3. NSG and Cheeky misplayed on Chip and didn't do much to right the ship.
4. BTD didn't play the game.

Your performance would have absolutely earned you a nightkill in a typical game yes.

[Papa Zito]

This game ended up feeling like the games we had 4-5 years ago. No spamposting, no memes, just people trying to Figure Out The Puzzle.

It was nice.