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[Sephiroth]

Ugh can we move on from the 'more likely to lynch' argument? I'm not really sure how a misunderstanding in methodology is relevant to finding scum. If someone has a good answer to that question please illuminate me.

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Joking

K. I don't really like that you waited and built the suspense. Adding unnecessary confusion and uncertainty to the dialog is not pro-town. It also feasibly gives you time to see how the town is taking the claim before choosing whether you want to follow through or pull back. VOTE: sergtacos

Let me break it down. You made a claim, I didn't understand whether it was serious or not and I asked you if it was serious. You chose not to answer my question. I think this is suspicious for these two reasons, let me know if this is still unclear:

a)

because you refused to clarify. Maybe you thought you were obviously making a second joke, but to me it was unclear. The fact that Dani also questioned it AFTER your initial 'What is is to you' post should make it clear that my misunderstanding is not unreasonable. Choosing not to answer straight away is choosing to extend the amount of time that we don't know the nature of your claim. I think that choosing to withhold that basic information is anti-town behavior.

b)

because the choice not to answer immediately gives you the opportunity to delay your potential decision about whether to say the claim is serious or say that you were joking all along. AKA your second post seemed like filler while you made up your mind.

In my perspective it was an obvious joke. So you can't really put that on me because its what I see. What direct question? Yeah I asked what is it to you? That I believed was an obvious joke but lmfao u got butt hurt over that? Not sure if you're town because of that or you're scum trying to get a wagon on me all because I made a joke lmao. And the rest i dont understand.

The direct question was me asking you whether you were joking. I wouldn't say I'm butt hurt so much as curious why you were choosing to be non-cooperative.

Anyhow I'm satisfied with your explanation.
UNVOTE:

I'm not liking Sergtacos pushing the claiming scum thing...

VOTE: SergtacosVOTE:

I'm actually not doing that either. I was pushing that it was anti-town to not answer a direct question about his miller claim.

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I dunno where I'm at at this point. Danyboy and Wavemode are town. Implosion wickedest and Flub have been adding to the discussion in a beneficial way and I don't see anything to warrant suspicion.. Serg is probably town despite his omgus on me. Language barrier explains some things.

I need to read some twoinamillion games to get a read. Multiple people saying this is playstyle but he seems pretty scummy to me. Its just hard to imagine 68 coming from town. It was probably the biggest reach of the whole game. And then not even knowing the facts of what I'm pushing against Serg...

Lalendra is the definition of coasting. Contributions have been rare and narrow in focus. What are your thoughts on the last couple pages? It would be dope if HEM and Chip Butty showed up as well.

For now I'm content to

vote: lalendra

since both HEM are Chip Butty said they aren't around. Lalendra lets hear some thoughts on the main wagons of the day.

[Wickedestjr]

Now WickedJr, who said absolutely nothing to or about Wossi in the very early game, then was suddenly Mr. "hey i think this Wossi guy is horrible and I believe these other four people who coincidentally are already voting him are astute mafia players whom I agree with wholeheartedly. Let me draw up some reasons Wossi is a scumlord and slap my vote there too" is the worst among them in my view. (aka Mr. I'm going to do nothing for a long time then vote Wossi 90 minutes after Nexus posts a VC showing him to be at L-3. Was the vote based on Wossi's play? Or opportunism?)

I said 'absolutely nothing to or about Wossi in the very early game' because I simply wasn't around. I disappeared for a whopping 22 hours and everything from Wossi that bothered me happened during that 22 hours. And you say that my vote is opportunistic, but you haven't made any effort to understand/ask about my reasons for voting Wossi. You're just making ridiculous statements about me. Let me know when you want to start listening to what I have to say.


Also: I disagree with the people who are saying that Wossi gave reasons for his skitter scum read. There's a fine line between ambiguous interactions with skitter and explicitly stating reasons for scum reading her. The only comments that actually give insight into what he's thinking and why are the "I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum" and his Flubber/skitter theory.

[Wickedestjr]

If I had another vote, it would probably go to Chip Butty. Looking forward to seeing him explain his bad Flubber vote.

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.3:

Wossi (5)

- implosion, Flubbernugget, skitter30, iDanyboy, Wickedestjr

Flubbernugget (4)

- humaneatingmonkey, Wossi, Chip Butty, Sergtacos

Wickedestjr(1)

- wavemode

Sephiroth (1)

- TwoInAMillion

Lalendra (1)

- Sephiroth

Not Voting (2)

- Lalendra

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is at 3pm GMT on Sunday 26th November 2017 ((expired on 2017-11-26 15:00:00))

[TwoInAMillion]

I'm not liking Sergtacos pushing the claiming scum thing...

VOTE: SergtacosVOTE:

I'm actually not doing that either. I was pushing that it was anti-town to not answer a direct question about his miller claim.

I disagree.

[Sergtacos]

VOTE: wossi

[Chip Butty]

Flubber: I don't mind people poking there. I think town tend to avoid jokes like that because there's no upside and they don't need the aggravation. Scum, otoh, see an upside in getting pseudo towncred if they can get through the initial wave of suspicion.

In fact, let's increase the heat a little:

VOTE: Flubber

What does this mean? Why would scum get towncred if they can get through the initial wave of suspicion? And if people actually get towncred from doing this, why would town not do that to also get towncred? From this explanation, I don't get why what he did is AI or why you're voting him.

Like, this is blatantly not happening; most people are kinda sketchy on Flubber atm.

Everyone's saying that they don't like it but I still don't get why scum does this.

It was mostly just early game pressure. Having said that, I don't think I've ever made that kind of joke as either alignment but i could maybe imagine doing it as scum. The thought being that maybe people would think along the lines that it might create the inpression of being town by virtue of being relaxed enough to make a joke like that. Hence 'pseudo cred', cred not based on anything real. As town i wouldn't want the aggro from the initial wave of suspicion because it would just distract from scumhunting.

I'll catch up reading and see if i want to change my vote. I see wossi is the fashionable wagon now.

Same with current HEM opinion.

[Chip Butty]

Maybe not right now though. I'm kind of busy, and tired.

[Chip Butty]

If I had another vote, it would probably go to Chip Butty. Looking forward to seeing him explain his bad Flubber vote.

Is my flubber vote somehow worse than the other flubber votes? Can you explain why you singled me out?

[iDanyboy]

I'll catch up reading and see if i want to change my vote. I see wossi is the fashionable wagon now.

UNVOTE:
Really don't like this, looking for a reason to get onto the wagon now that he is L-1, same with Srgtacos.

[iDanyboy]

I feel like in general you have this habit of pointing to one thing and completely ignoring context. Like, for future reference, the next time you have a question for me along the lines of "So you think X just because Y" the answer is NO. I think X because of the ENTIRE, COMBINED CONTEXT of Y, Z, H, Q, and Theta, all occurring together within the same situation at the same time. Y just happens to be one particular aspect of it.

Please explain the context of the things I said that make you think Wossi is town. I think the problem we're having is your being too general, and how your defending Wossi could be used to defend Wicked and your ignoring the specific things they did differently.

[Flubbernugget]

I need to catch up. Not many posts, but they are substantial, and I'd like to reread some of the skitter interactions.

When I first played with wavemode, I dismissed them as stupid town. They were scum. From skimming the others' posts about him, it sounds like he's playing the "stupid town" card again. I will confirm this with my own eyes on catch up.

[iDanyboy]

As I said above, wagon speed proves nothing in and of itself and I never said it did. I just felt it worth mentioning within the context of everything else, that I didn't like how quickly the wagon formed.

You said you think his town because "and not the least of which is the speed of the growth of his wagon."

Like your last paragraph about Wossi activity. Completely valid points, all. But they prove nothing in and of themselves - as you say yourself, it could just be real life. But you are still considering it in your analysis, within the context of all the other information. I'm doing the exact same thing.

They are both as wrong as each other because we can't differentiate between it happening to town or scum. We don't know if Wossi is lurking or his just too busy so there's no poing using it same with the speed of a wagon we can't tell if the wagon grew so quick because people believe he was scummy or scum are just piling on the wagon so there is no point using it.

[skitter30]

Unvote. Vote: TwoInAMillion

for already misreading. Pretty sure he wasn't criticizing wavemode.

I thought I wasn't going to be able to talk about this because of ongoing games, but 1954 ended yesterday.

Wicked, how would you characterize Two here in relation to that game?

[wavemode]

When I first played with wavemode, I dismissed them as stupid town. They were scum.

You're thinking of someone else then. Not only was I town, I had 2/3 of the scumteam pegged on Day 1. Go reread F&E

[Wossi]

Hey guys

I've fallen a bit behind due to some work emergencies, but Friday I should have time to catch up.

Don't lynch me before then

I'm actually backing off my skitter scum read. It wasn't very substancial to begin with, I was mostly just red flagged by her defensiveness to early day one poking/prodding/meaningless accusations. There wasn't much else to go on. I wanted to see if I could gauge some more reactions from her, hence the ambiguity. But I'm liking her more recent postings.

I'm not liking Wicked at the moment, but that's just on feeling right now because I haven't had time to read in depth. I promise an in-depth post on Friday

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not liking Sergtacos pushing the claiming scum thing...

VOTE: SergtacosVOTE:

I'm actually not doing that either. I was pushing that it was anti-town to not answer a direct question about his miller claim.

I disagree.

Can you explain how Sephiroth was pushing Flubber's 'claiming scum' thing? IIRC, he stopped doing that four or five pages ago.

[Wickedestjr]

If I had another vote, it would probably go to Chip Butty. Looking forward to seeing him explain his bad Flubber vote.

Is my flubber vote somehow worse than the other flubber votes? Can you explain why you singled me out?

Well I'm not a fan of Wossi's vote for Flubber either, so I wouldn't necessarily say that your vote was the worst, but I am almost equally bothered by it. Here's why:

Flubber: I don't mind people poking there.

I think town tend to avoid jokes like that because there's no upside and they don't need the aggravation. Scum, otoh, see an upside in getting pseudo towncred if they can get through the initial wave of suspicion.

In fact, let's increase the heat a little:

VOTE: Flubber

The bolded feels unnatural to me for some reason, maybe because there's so much WIFOM surrounding it. And I also don't like how you make it clear that it's a pressure vote.

Another problem that I have with the bandwagon as a whole (not your vote specifically) is that I'm not sure what this 'pressure' is supposed to accomplish when the only reason is that 'Flubber claimed scum' and there's really nothing he can say to defend himself besides saying that it was a joke. We have more information to work with now.

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: TwoInAMillion

for already misreading. Pretty sure he wasn't criticizing wavemode.

I thought I wasn't going to be able to talk about this because of ongoing games, but 1954 ended yesterday.

Wicked, how would you characterize Two here in relation to that game?

His play here looks similar to that game. The only difference that I can see is that he seems to be misreading quite a bit in this game; his reasons for voting monkey/Seph seem wrong and he also accidentally voted the wrong person before voting Seph. I'm not sure if this is because he's genuinely missing things or if he's scum that just doesn't care about understanding what's happening in the game. It's difficult to say because he has no scum games to look at. Right now he's a neutral for me, very slight town lean if anything.

What do you think about him?

[skitter30]

VOTE: wossi

This vote is like really, really bad. Naked voting for L-1 (well now L-2 since dany unvoted after)? Um, no.

It was mostly just early game pressure. Having said that, I don't think I've ever made that kind of joke as either alignment but i could maybe imagine doing it as scum. The thought being that maybe people would think along the lines that it might create the inpression of being town by virtue of being relaxed enough to make a joke like that. Hence 'pseudo cred', cred not based on anything real. As town i wouldn't want the aggro from the initial wave of suspicion because it would just distract from scumhunting.

I like this, and I think it is a reasonable explanation for your vote on Flubber at that time; probably one of the better reasoned votes on the wagon.

I'll catch up reading and see if i want to change my vote. I see wossi is the fashionable wagon now.

In contrast, I dislike this, since it seems like you're opportunistically looking for a popular wagon to join.

I was mostly just red flagged by her defensiveness to early day one poking/prodding/meaningless accusations. There wasn't much else to go on. I wanted to see if I could gauge some more reactions from her, hence the ambiguity. But I'm liking her more recent postings.

a) I still don't think I was defensive

b) I dislike that you're characterizing your questions as 'meaningless accusations' - I pointed out that some of your posting appears to be undirected towards no specific purpose, and is just kinda there for the purpose of being there. 'meaningless accussations' sounds like you're admitting that you're making accusations that are unfounded. Like I said, that's at best busy work, and at worst misrepping people or attacking people for no good reason. I'm having a hard time seeing why town makes 'meaningless accusations'.

I'm also low-key disconcerted that a lot of people are townreading me and are like agreeing with me; I usually just say what I think, and it tends to be harder than this for me to get people to agree with me. Like the things I say tend to be viewed as more controversial/disputed than what's happening right now, and I'm finding it to be a little weird that *a lot* of people are agreeing with me and my arguments

[wavemode]

If it makes you feel any better, I disagree with the majority of your arguments

[skitter30]

Unvote. Vote: TwoInAMillion

for already misreading. Pretty sure he wasn't criticizing wavemode.

I thought I wasn't going to be able to talk about this because of ongoing games, but 1954 ended yesterday.

Wicked, how would you characterize Two here in relation to that game?

His play here looks similar to that game. The only difference that I can see is that he seems to be misreading quite a bit in this game; his reasons for voting monkey/Seph seem wrong and he also accidentally voted the wrong person before voting Seph. I'm not sure if this is because he's genuinely missing things or if he's scum that just doesn't care about understanding what's happening in the game. It's difficult to say because he has no scum games to look at. Right now he's a neutral for me, very slight town lean if anything.

What do you think about him?

I think he just naturally looks incredibly scummy, and that's really, really hard to diffrentiate between bad/scummy town play and actual scum play from him.

Thus far, I don't think anything he's done is AI or out of his town meta. He tends to misead things and draw, quite frankly, bizarre conclusions. I don't disagree that it's bad or scummy. I just don't know if it makes him scum.

He's hard-null atm, and I don't think I can read him directly. I think I have to try to sort him indirectly. If he's town, he's lynchbait, and I imagine that scum would try to lynch him at some point; I imagine we'd see oppurtunistic votes on him, or people trying to distance themselves from his wagon by whiteknighting him. Both of these things happened in 1954, and I called them out both times. If he's scum, I think both of those are less likely to happen.

I was actually kinda surprised that you made that vote, since we legit just wagoned him for this sort of behavior, and he was town there.

[Wickedestjr]

I was actually kinda surprised that you made that vote, since we legit just wagoned him for this sort of behavior, and he was town there.

FWIW I don't remember him misreading things in our game that just ended.

[TwoInAMillion]

I admit I have difficulty making reads on people without hard informaiton or a lot of associative votes to go on. I tend to be more valuable as the game progresses.

[iDanyboy]

I'm not liking Sergtacos pushing the claiming scum thing...

Why did you decide to change your vote from Flubbernugget to Sephiroth?