Mini Normal 1954: Iambic Tetramafia: Endgame

[Jingle]

Pagetop!

[UC Voyager]

i swwer there will be a game that the only posts i will make are pagetop posts that say "pagetop". and i will get every page top til im lynched/night killed

[Wickedestjr]

Wow I can't ever remember playing in a game that went this quickly! Great job town.

And thanks again for the game jj! This was definitely a creative/memorable setup; I wish I could have stuck around longer to fully enjoy it.

Looking forward to seeing those PTs too.

[Transcend]

Well that sucked

For scum that is

[CommKnight]

With all the PRs revealed, it was definitely town sided (long before I replaced in or any of that).

I think the problem showed itself pretty well in this game. If you can create a solid town bloc using the roles in-game D2/D3 so that the number of town outnumber the scum in this bloc (as well as potential mislynches), they then just needed to lynch until they were right.

Essentially there were 5 town PRs vs mafia who's traitor doesn't matter because they can't communicate with them and the traitor cannot win it alone and could also be accidentally shot. The Encryptor was also sorta useless without 3+ mafia in the chat, because once he or his partner dies, the day chat will be gone anyway.

Then even-night roleblocker? You might as well switch it out for Rolecop so mafia can hunt for PRs. There were only 2 roles you could block, and one of them would easily use their ability N1, so really only the PT cop was blockable and only once every second night if you managed to track them down.

Definitely a few tweaks needed as mafia whoever they are any game will have a tough time breaking past the town PR wall that can easily clear themselves by interacting with one another.

[CommKnight]

The other way to fix it is to take away the town masons and have the town neighbourizer as that'd ping off the PT cop while not additionally auto-clearing 3 people.

[Alisae]

>Loses game
>Blames the setup
LOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Transcend]

This was winnable for scum ez

Town just murdered our preds and neither of us stood a chance

[Alisae]

Exactly
you have nothing to blame but your play here.

[ironstove]

I'm sorry, was this really a 2:11 setup? that's fucking disgusting. how is that even fair for scum?

[Transcend]

It was 3 10

[CommKnight]

3:10 but the 3rd mafia member hardly even counted.

Also I'd be saying the same thing if I was town this set-up. Don't blame me if I can pick apart something that is objectively unbalanced. You essentially have 5 people who can help clear each other which only leaves 5 VTs for possible mislynch. Which means scum need to kill all 5 PRs during the night. If you work it out, the town PRs are practically impossible to lynch because they can clear each other.

So.

D1 - VT (3:9)
N1 - PR (3:8)
D2 - VT (3:7)
N2 - PR (3:6)
D3 - VT (3:5)
N4 - PR (3:4)
D4 - VT (3:3)

^ This is how it'd need to go for a perfect scum victory, I suppose you could swap a single night kill on a PR for a VT but then you rely on mislynching the FINAL VT D4.

Now let's do a scenario where all VTs are killed and a single scummer is killed.

D1 - VT (3:9)
N1 - VT (3:8)
D2 - VT (3:7)
N2 - PR (3:6)
D3 - VT (3:5)
N4 - Traitor (2:5)
D5 - VT (2:4) [Final VT is now dead]
N5 - PR (2:3)
D6 - It is now LYLO with 2 mafia vs 3 town PRs. If it's one of the other mafia dead besides the Traitor, then it's still possible to mislynch the traitor by the mafia. Due to town PRs setup, all 3 can clear each other.

Keep in mind, if the town PRs are even half decent, you can't mislynch them.

It's actually very similar to Stacking The Deck. The masons being the initial 2 PRs and both being IC's, the town PT enabler allowing for a mafia ability plus the mafia traitor is weaker, which would be traded for day chat access for the two goons and the mafia roleblocker being limited to even nights could at least I suppose allow for one more town PR.

Anyway, maybe my opinion means nothing to you guys, but it was definitely unbalanced no matter who was town/mafia.

[Alisae]

If the Traitor gets inno'd then the Traitor will just win the game.

[Alisae]

Like the Traitor here basicly acts like a really nerfed godfather imo

[CommKnight]

Not necessarily true. Especially once LYLO happens, the innocence of the traitor would come into question. Also nerfing the traitor to just lose because the other two lose instead of becoming a goon or even a kill-less traitor just adds to it.

Also did you look at how many days the mafia would need to go without losing one of their own? You'd need a seriously strong mafia team to be able to lynch all 5 VTs and still walk out of it with any chance of winning.

[mhsmith0]

Neighborizer and PT enabler are pretty fundamentally lynchable roles.

Neighborizer in particular isn't even slightly clearing, and a paranoid town can/should be VERY concerned about the possibility of a scum neighborizer rolling them (which basically happens every time you get a scum neighborizer lolol)

[mhsmith0]

But yeah, scum need to not shoot their traitor. That's inherent to a game design with a traitor. Mastina can talk more about that

[mhsmith0]

Town basically had:

1) 2 masons (ok that's helpful, though lack of day chat nerfs their power substantially since they can't really coordinate)
2) A largely insane cop (but who knows he's insane)
3) A generically non-clearing role (neighborizer) who in practice will super nerf the insane cop since he'll be EVEN MORE likely to get a guilty that isn't really one, AND you get the realistic chance that scum will be guiltied while in a hood and therefore have a great excuse (which is why, for instance, you should never give scum a vanilla cop or any other role that has a gun when town gets a gunsmith unless you're intentionally trying to nerf the gunsmith)
4) An explicitly NU role that, when dead, fucks with the power set
5) 5 VTs

But yeah a lot of what was going on here was the potential for the PT cop to falsely guilty masons or neighborhood people and/or to falsely clear the traitor. That potential results dysfunction was a pretty non-trivial portion of scum's power in this game.

[CommKnight]

Scum had:

1) Day chat
2) Even-Night Roleblocker (Who would only be really effective against the PT cop)
3) Nerfed Traitor who cannot win on their own.

So while the potential innocent is there, you completely voided it by making the traitor lose the moment the two main mafia members die. It's like having a suicidal Godfather. So even if the traitor got cleared and town-read (and would still need to survive a LYLO situation alone), the PT cop only needs to find the other two mafia. If the PT cop finds the Masons, then the PT Enabler can actually vouch for them (like they did in this game). The neighbourizer while it is lynchable, I generally see it as town in most games so far. Yet to see a scum one.

You have a lot of town PRs that can essentially vouch for each other and a seriously nerfed scum team. Which is more of a 2+1:10 where the +1 is useless (and if they get cleared by town could be killed by mafia).

[mhsmith0]

History of traitor games in 10/3. Note that I'm not sure when traitor became only normal if non-recruitable; 1543 a solo traitor won, so clearly it was after that...

Spoiler:

1401 town
joat (gunsmith/vig/rb), odd night vig, 2x masons
traitor, goon, 1-shot bp

1402 scum
bg/tracker/joat
vs traitor role cop/goon/encryptor
(here traitor could be reruited, which is non-normal, idk if that was true then tho)

1483 town
tracker, 1-shot vig, gunsmith
vs traitor, goon, 1-shot ninja

1486 town
1-shot cop, ic, even jailkeeper, cultwach admin (idk what that was)
vs traitor, goon, rolecop

1543 scum
even night compulsive vig, doc, 3x neighbors
vs traitor, joat (rolecop, roleblock), nurse

1585 scum
tracker, jialkeeper, bodyguard
vs traitor, goon, strongman

1642 scum
gunsmith, bodyguard, ic, 2-shot vig
vs goon, encryptor, 2-shot roleblocker traitor

1740 town
?????
vs traitor, goon, jailkeeper

1762 town
3-shot jailkeeper, gunsmith, 1-shot vig
vs goon, goon, traitor

1791 town (was an open game, not really comparable)

1814 scum
non-consecutive jailkeeper, joat (voyeur, follower, neapolitan, bodyguard, motion detector, neighborizer), weak doctor, 2-shot commuter
vs traitor encryptor, goon, goon

1895 town
cop, fruit vendor, doctor (and 3-man hood including cop as a member)
vs traitor, odd night rb, even night rb

1938 scum
JOAT (doc/jk/bg), 2-shot vig, gunsmith
vs bp traitor, joat (cop/rolecop), neighborizer

I'd say that town power doesn't particularly stand out as greater here than it was there. Scum won 1814 with less power (and I'd say town had more including three distinct ways to prevent kills, though jk/weak doc interactions could be potentially nasty for town) as an easy example.

PS 1543 was an absolutely horrible design and if anything I'm impressed town made it to 3/1 mylo given how little they had to deal with.

[mhsmith0]

Here you have a number of PRs that vaguely fit together, but no real proof that any of them are town-aligned other than masons and (barring a fairly lol town) the PT cop. Neighborizer and PT enabler are explicitly non guaranteed town roles. They can't be "vouched for" by anyone else, and even if they CAN prove their existence there's no proof at all that they're necessarily town roles.

Or to put it a different way: in mini normals, it's pretty common for towns to lynch PRs WAY more clearing or important than neighborizer or PT enabler. The realistic lynch pool was 7/10 town roles, the potential for the PT cop to out himself without ever getting anything useful was substantial (and the potential for him to also out the masons was pretty substantial too), and scum had just a little bit extra power to potentially screw with town night actiosn if needed (for instance, if they wanted to shoot a mason n2 and save the pt cop for n3 or something)... for a mini normal that's pretty balanced.

[mhsmith0]

The neighbourizer while it is lynchable, I generally see it as town in most games so far. Yet to see a scum one.

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549

Skimming it you see something like a 3:1 ratio of town to scum neighborizers, and the ratio is smaller if you exclude stuff like JOAT where one of the shots is neighborizer (or a boosted role like weak neighborizer), ditto if you count only from, say, 1700 to now (1400-1700 had almost exclusively town neighborizers, more recent games have had much closer splits of the role)

And scum neighbors and neighborizers just crush these games, so town SHOULD be very wary of a neighborizer most of the time. If they setup spec'd their way to that role bieng necessarily town, they were both incorrect and wandering into very dangerous territory for whenever they'd next have a game vs a scum neighborizer.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Thanks for the game JJ!! It actually turned out quite well, and I'm very pleased with my teammates. I think the setup was well done, though I personally would have traded the traitor for a goon.

A few things I'd like to say...

The setup isn't really town-sided... considering how poorly towns generally function. Town won because there were 4 people who had heavy histories with each other and they

all rolled town

.

HOWEVER

, the trolls and bad play of the scum team contributed to the win significantly. Awoo was doing alright and I think if LUV had stayed it may have delayed the win perhaps another day at least. The replacements hurt the team greatly, in my opinion, and the players who replaced in did nothing to enhance the slots' performances in any way whatsoever.

I think it's in very poor taste to blame the setup when the effort on the part of, primarily, transcend and CommKnight was close to nothing.

Secondly, I don't respond to trolls and I never will. They don't learn when people outright tell them that their behavior is unacceptable, so hopefully they will learn when they get excluded from the things they want to do, like play mafia games on this site at the least.

Last,

Jingle

- thank you so much for making such an effort to keep your head in this game and keep it moving and keep us all motivated. I think it was a HUGE contribution to the town win, for sure. You're awesome, and I'm so glad you were able to play.

Great job, town, I'd be happy to play with (almost) any of you again

also... you guys give me too much credit in the mod thread but how flattering! thanks yall

♥

[EspeciallyTheLies]

Alsoooo... the fact that scum had daychat is like.. a huge advantage, just saying. Masons did not have that, though we didn't really need it cuz dunker was such a good townie - seriously I forgot to thank

DUNKER!!

you were a fabulous mason buddy, and played it

just right

. Well done!

[EspeciallyTheLies]

you have my permission to release the mason thread
also i love your votecount! very clean and aesthetically pleasing.

this too.

I'd love to see the mafia PT!!